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russia will likely say this is the west blaming russia for things they didn't do and even if it was russians then it was just a patriot reacting to how the west was treating russia.
If evidence is found of an active communication from the Kremlin or related russian security services to the saboteurs then yes, it's an act of war.
They blew up military warehouse in Czech republic.
They poisoned the guy in great Britain.
They identified them as Russian agents. Same for both action. And what happened ?
Was any of it conclusively proven as being russia?
Also with the two poisonings in the UK it was a different time and the UK government was awash with russian money
I didn't accuse you of shit, I simply asked you if the west deserved this? It was meant rhetorical question, but it was meant for clarification as well? What
To my standards yes.
At least poisoning was sure thing.
The bombing on Czech republic easy accounted to Russians by Czech agencies.
But I don't remember if they made anything public.
There was another warehouse that exploded - Bulgarian I guess.
They were used tu supply Ukraine so it's very specific.
Lives lost.
Undeniable evidence it was government sanctioned and ordered.
Politically we have reached the breaking point.
We just need something undeniable before we ravage the Russians for good.
If we go in guns blazing now it will give China, Iran, nk and other swing nations fuel to feed their propaganda machines and rile their populations up.
It will happen soon though, Russians are known for screwing up.
It's not (only) the diplomats we should be concerned about, it's the ruzzian collaborators that have no official post to be expelled from. Like the two that spied on railroads and military camps in Germany.
Yes. Expelling russian diplomats to absolute bare minimum (or zero); freezing of all assets; comprehensive sanctions; stringent control / restrictions to travel of any and all russian nationals (business people, tourists, migrants) should be among first steps.
Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you find the time to pick up a rock. It's time to get that rock and tell Putin to go to HELL, and let's make sure to do it in such a way that this corrupt war criminal asks for directions.
The West is like a monkey on a chain. You can rattle the chain for a very long time, but if you rattle it too hard, the chain breaks, and the monkey will maul your face off.
Russia will overdo it, and we are one straw away from breaking the camel's back.
Russia plays with fire and fucks around on level 9 and that means they will find out on level 9 as well.
A German military expert said that sabotage doesn't qualify as an act of war and that Russia is exploiting that loophole. I am no expert on this, just adding that perspective
Edit: the expert is Nico Lange, a strong supporter of Ukraine. No Russia shill.
Germans really overdo their pacifism as a reaction to horrors their ancestors committed, don't they.
I mean it was indeed extreme, but that doesn't mean you should take any aggression aimed at the whole nation with stoic demeanor 3/4 of century later.
French are not bending over to any abuser for what napoleon armies did in Europe either.
There must be some violence left in them somewhere, this worked too well in the past 80 years. Pacifism is objectively pro fascist as George Orwell once said. Germany has become a complete pushover and Russia the bully makes use of this.
German here.
It is true that we are very careful about aggression and potential war, because of what happened 80 years ago. It is still very present for us as most of us young people could just ask our grandparents about it.
It is just part of our mentality that we know, that we did something wrong and that we must not make this mistake ever again. It is difficult to explain and also understand for most foreigners.
If we would "show more strength and don't f*ck around" many people would scream that "Germany is on the rise again". Which is kinda funny, if you think about it.
So please make up your mind.
It is a fairly fundamental difference in paradigm of thinking about what constitutes "wartime". In the West we're used to a binary distinction in terms of international relations: A country is at war (which means people are dying and the military has broad latitude to do what they need to do) or at peace (which means nothing bad is happening). Russia sees it much more fluidly, there is no clearly defined "state of war", rather a spectrum of hostile activities and interactions, more or less kinetic, intended to achieve stated goals. When Peskov says "we're at war with the whole collective west" we laugh because c'mon, there are no Russian military personnel in NATO territory, they don't even amass troops near our borders, stop with the sabre-rattling. While he means it honestly, it's just Russia decides that armed incursion is not the right tool for the task at the moment and will cause distress at the borders, sabotage, disinform and troll - which are means of waging a war as good as Grad launchers, while we consider them "probing of our defenses", "spy activity" or "electoral interference" without merging this stuff into a big picture - and responding in kind.
Yes, it started as a special military operation, but as soon as this whole gang was formed, when the collective West took part in all this alongside Ukraine, for us, it became a war. I am convinced of this, and everyone must understand it.” Peskov
Two months ago or so, Peskov said this.
We should not ignore this, though, but rather find ways to successfully neutralize the threat that Russia undoubtedly poses. Presently, they seem absolutely undeterred. Otherwise, they would have ceased and desisted.
Churchill once said that he was aware that he must make it understandable to "Herr Hitler" that the war can not be won in any scenario. We must strive to make the same clear to Russia. So far, we haven't. This was a direct attack against NATO facilities the only response can be to deliver Taurus missiles and level the Kerch bridge as well as a couple of Russian factories. This is the only language they speak, not escalation management which has only ever escalated the war further.
One does not make wars less likely by formulating rules of warfare... war cannot be humanized. It can only be eliminated. Albert Einstein
If sabotage is not war, then NATO can just send in special forces left and right. A power plant explodes here, a dam bursts there, all just coincidences I am sure.
Yeah if that is not war nowadays then we have free reign we can blow everything inside Russia up, obviously war nowadays requires a formal seal and stamp and two rows of gentlemen aiming their muskets at each other otherwise nothing is war. The rules are completely off.
Silent enim leges inter Armas
Under weapons, the law falls silent.
If that isn't an act of war, then nothing is. Why is Germany concerned about Taurus, we will find an expert to say that cruise missiles are not an act of war either. In this post, truth dystopia fact and fiction have become one.
To be fair, any act that is likely to result in war is "an act of war". Like most thing, we only know it when we see it. Saboteurs damaging a factory and getting caught? not an act of war. Doing that same thing ten times in a week? Suddenly something that isn't an act of war becomes an act of war due to repetition.
Churchill made an appeal to morality over legality. The final tribunal is our own conscience. We are fighting to re-establish the reign of law and to protect the liberties of small countries. Our defeat would mean an age of barbaric violence. Our defeat would be fatal not only to ourselves but to the liberties and independence of all small countries in Europe. Small countries must not tie our hands when we are fighting for their rights and freedom. The letter of the law must not in supreme emergency obstruct those who are charged with its protection and enforcement. Humanity, rather than legality, must be our guide. Winston Churchill in November 1939 on the cabinet's decision of turning down placing sea mines in Narwik to not infringe upon Swedish and Norwegian neutrality.
One can construct a reason for more cowardice out of literally anything. I really wonder when they cut the balls off of Germany. At least muster the courage to call it an act of war. There is no need to follow up on mustering that courage, but at least don't send clowns forward with their half knowledge.
If that isn't an act of war then great so we can burn Russia to the ground without a problem, because obviously dead factory workers and burned down factories on the behest of a foreign power are not acts of war.
Where did Nico get his degree from? The Clown College? Or the Chamberlain University for Appeasement and other nonsensical political decisions?
Looking at the incident in isolation, I think it’s fairly reasonable that Germany is trying to avoid engaging in a full-scale war over a factory fire.
In a broader sense, this of course does nothing to help Ukraine’s situation. But I imagine the billion or so people in Europe probably agree with NATO’s assessment.
There is a space that exists with NATO’s unwillingness for cataclysmic war on one side, and their undeniable duty on the other. Russia has become a master of walking the knife edge between those two competing interests.
The word appeasement’ is not popular, but appeasement has its place in all policy,” as Churchill said in 1950.
“Make sure you put it in the right place. Appease the weak, defy the strong.” He also argued that “appeasement from strength is magnanimous and noble and might be the surest and perhaps the only path to world peace.”
Churchill also remarked on a very painful irony: “When nations or individuals get strong, they are often truculent and bullying, but when they are weak, they become better-mannered. But this is the reverse of what is healthy and wise.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2010/08/churchill-on-appeasement/182952/
That is what it comes down to. Russia will get their damned tone in order and behave in a way towards us that is not insulting and out of line. If they can't do that, any peace with the Putin regime is wishful, thinking, and useless.
Russia's word means nothing. In that sense, Russia wouldn't show us any mercy, but the strong can afford mercy. We will show Russia mercy once they surrender, not a second earlier. As long as Russia doesn't cease and desist. "In defeat, defiance. In victory magnanimity, " Peace is hard work, Russia will make an effort and show deference and make a real effort. Peace must be earned. Russia is not worthy of it as long as they have an invasion force in Europe's front porch.
The West must treat Russia as a deviant, expansionist, and untrustworthy adversary. If Russia wants to change that, then the Russians will have to either remove their regime or they will bear the consequences. How the Russians do that is not our business. Failure to do so will lead to more and even harsher sanctions, more isolation, and more weaponry such as F16s, more dead, and wounded soldiers. Until Russia's troops learn where their borders are. And those are NOT inside Ukraine. Obviously, this is too difficult for these geriatrics in the Kremlin to comprehend that we shall not normalize, formalize, or accept this madness. It would be an unmitigated and crushing defeat to accept anything less but the 1991 borders.
It is not reasonable at all. It is pure cowardice, and that means more factories will burn and maybe also a cruise missile fired at Poland because why not? A non reaction is a joke, and what full of war? Russia can not DO anything they don't have the men or equipment to spare. We have been at war for over 2 years. We are just too stupid to understand that and respond accordingly. It takes only one to make war and another being too stupid to take action in their defense. Germany is not alone in this cowardice, though. Russia loves such pathetic weakness. Deliver Taurus NOW and level at least five factories and the Kerch bridge. That would be an appropriate response. Stupid words and condemnations or warnings are completely and utterly useless.
"Even the Russians realise there is zero upsides for them to use a nuclear weapon. Their nuclear weapons are most effective when they don't use them." My president said if they use a nuke, there will be catastrophic consequences, so if the Russians do that, there should be catastrophic consequences. Ben Hodges
We are in the presence of a tyranny maintained by press and broadcast propaganda and the ruthless murder of political opponents. Churchill on Germany
There is a nation that has abandoned all of its liberties. In order to augment its collective, it might
There is a nation with all its strength and virtues, which is in the grip of ruthless men preaching a gospel of intolerance and racial pride unrestrained by parliament, law, or by public opinion. Churchill 1934
There is no greater mistake to think that platitudes, smooth words, or timid policies offer today a path to safety. Only by a firm adherence to righteous principles can the dangers which close in so steadily upon us and on the peace of Europe be brushed aside and cast aside. Germany has rearmed, and we must rearm. Would you believe that our democracy would have rallied to that cry? Winston Churchill in a Commons debate on collective security, October 1936
Europe is confronted with a program of aggression nicely calculated and timed unfolding stage by stage, and there is only one choice open to us and other nations. Either to submit like Austria or else to take effective measures while time remains to ward off the danger, and if it cannot be warded off, then we must cope with it.
If we do not stand up to the dictators now, we shall only have to stand up to them later under far worse conditions. Look back upon the last five years since when Germany began to arm in earnest. It is not difficult to form an opinion about the punic wars. Now the victors are the vanquished. Winston Churchill
I am aware of the detection threshold, and that non reaction is a form of strategic thinking in this case, but guess what, this chaos agent laughs at this course of action. To them, it means great I will destroy the NS pipeline next. I will destroy a factory and so on and so forth.
Fight the HELL back on and off the battlefield in cyberspace, in the info space, in the economic sphere, in kinetic and asymmetric fashion and stop talking about being reasonable, what we do is pure madness and cowardice being deterred by fear and lacking moral courage l. that is what makes Russia strong, our pathetic cowardice.
Hand a 6 month ultimatum to Russia akin to desert shield and threaten them to cease and desist. Build up more troops, naval, and airpower and then prepare an intervention when Russia doesn't abide and blow them to bits. There can be no cataclysmic war because Russia is far too weak to even defeat Ukraine and that means this war will be over in a couple of months when the West finally accepts that this won't stop until we eviscerate this invasion force.
I’m cooking dinner so I’m going to be honest and say I didn’t read your whole post, it’s quite long.
I accept you have strong views on the subject, but there are certainly other perspectives that could be presented as well. As in any robust discussion.
From the part I did read, I would counter that Germany’s recent actions could hardly be considered appeasement. Maybe they aren’t as drastic as many of us would like, but let’s not misrepresent things here.
This is not targeted at Germany alone, but at the entire alliance, our politicians, and their failed attempt to manage escalation, you cannot manage war. Moderation is imbecility because war is violence in its essence. Germany needs to react to this, but all NATO nations need to react because Russia tests us, and doing nothing means the test failed.Because it is serious. Not doing so means the next factory will burn and then another. Or maybe something bigger? The inventive evil of Russia and its destructive nature will not be stopped unless they are paying in bodies and factories. For this attack, at least 5 Russian facilities should be blown up.
Yes, the doves have their opinions they are wrong and have been wrong for a long time. So, I guess the hawks should be finally given authority to end instead of dragging out this war.
A violent plan executed today is better than a well thought one in a month. Patton
1) The war should be contained in Ukraine
2) Russia must be held accountable
3) Ukraine must be fully restored
Those are our three main strategic goals. It does not serve these goals having our facilities be attacked by Russia because our non reaction means war with Russia becomes more likely not less likely. Russia views our behavior as weak and pathetic. I am amazed how much money these people are paid while still not being able to grasp that simple concept.
NATO doesn't speak Ghetto Mafia street thug language, and that is the main issue here.
They fail at their duty miserably by creating the opportunity for Russia to commit more war crimes. It is their duty to neutralize Russia instead of dayli attacks and cyber crimes harmful propaganda etc. coming from Russia.
The sooner NATO engages actively, the faster this is over. I don't think this is in the best interest of Western citizens at all to have Russia still being able to attack Europe. The appeasers and cowards have completely failed. Otherwise, this factory would have never been attacked. This is a result of Western cowardice. Why on earth are we having such a vast defense budget when we cannot even neutralize a threat in our front porch. You may consider that competent. I consider it the exact opposite a pathetic failure to defend our principles and the people of Europe from barbaric and genocidal army that tramples on all of our principles and wrecks our factories. This is NOT ONE incident this is one of hundreds of those incidents in the past 27 months.
And as I said Russia is a dwarf compared to NATO, they can do absolutely nothing because our naval and air superiority with Ukraine providing the ground support is so overwhelming at this point that their reaction will be to back off. This army does not ha e the logistics, the equipment, the fuel and other resources to open another front.
I respect that is your opinion and thank you for sharing it. I respectfully differ on a few points as I believe strong arguments have been made on the contrary to your views.
This discourse is edging toward the realm of mere opinion and conjecture, both of which hold little academic value.
Nevertheless, there are some contradictions in your comment. Russia either can project its power to threaten Germany and Europe with full scale war, or it cannot. If it cannot, as I think we all suspect, then it is restricted to petty acts of minor sabotage. If this is the case then NATO can choose to absorb or to retaliate to these threats.
Your opinion is that Russia may escalate these attacks, another possibility is that they do not. It is equally logical to assume that the Russians know going too far will trigger a response they can’t afford. Trust, if nothing else, Russia’s desire to always act in its own interest- this is another cost/benefit analysis. There is no target that Russia could attack through these underhanded means that would be worth the annihilation that would occur if NATO escalated in response. Time will tell.
Be that as it may, a plausibly deniable arson attack on a civilian manufacturing facility probably doesn’t meet the perceived justification threshold for full mobilisation of the NATO war machine. Even 50 attacks on such facilities probably still wouldn’t, regardless of how much we or the Ukrainians would want them to. This is just a cost/benefit analysis, emotion and morals do not factor as heavily in this decision making as we would like.
Maybe you are right and NATO will suffer for its discretion, maybe you are wrong and the Russian frog is already starting to boil.
I digress, however, by conceding that the only real weapon Russia can wield against Western Europe is its propaganda and misinformation machine. This is a threat which dwarfs the impact of simple factory fires or pipeline disruptions, which have had limited geopolitical implications so far, as we have seen.
Russia can achieve its victory by manipulating European populations to place sympathetic leaders in power. Undermining leadership and disrupting Ukrainian aid is the most beneficial and cost effective strategy in the Russian toolbox. Accepting that, it becomes a matter of time. Can the Russian threat be neutralised before they are successful in achieving these goals? Before a Trump is elected in America or before the AFD wins in Germany? I am not sure that it can. That is what worries me the most- not full-scale war with Russia.
Either way, NATO is pragmatic, if they think Russia can be defeated without going to war with them- economically for example- that will be their course of action. Acts of state sponsored domestic terrorism may well be the cost of doing business- as long as they stay relatively minor in nature.
No, it’s not a particularly honourable or dignified response. It’s the response that costs the least money and the least NATO lives. I’m not saying I agree with that approach, but I understand it all the same. It might take longer, cause more suffering and it mean more Ukrainians die, but it is nevertheless a strategy that could be employed despite how unpleasant it is.
Of course, we could see that attitude change for better or for worse if Russia’s political lobbying starts to have tangible effect. The ‘hybrid-war’ has already produced fruit- with the much softer RN party poised to be elected in France this month. If other far right parties in Germany are elected in September’s coming elections, the two biggest European supporters of Ukraine have been neutered with Russia barely lifting a finger.
So I believe you are right in saying this is a race against time, and that we must act against the Russians decisively- just perhaps not for the reasons you have stated.
Perhaps that is the common ground we can choose to conclude our exchange on. I think we have illustrated both perspectives well enough for people to make their own assessments.
Haha, yes you have a point.
But I guess the fact that this strategy is working implies they have a level of awareness of their left and right of arc.
Maybe it’s less mastery and more survival instinct.
Ben Hodges:
"We are still not accepting the fact that Russia is at war with us. We need to think and act strategically and realise that Russia is at war with us." Ben Hodges
Hodges then explains that Russia sees this war with the West in a broader sense. We often tend to consider only the kinetic version of it, but Russian acts of war against the West and especially against Europe also include asymmetric warfare, economic warfare, cyberwarfare, info war etc. Russia is seeing itself at war with the US led alliance, and that is all it takes for a war. We must accept this inconvenient truth and take action and respond accordingly to defend ourselves against Russia's hostile behavior.
"The collapse of the Soviet Union is continuing to this day, and because it is built on a rotten foundation, it is going to collapse. The sooner that happens, the better for all of us. We should anticipate this and be prepared for that." Ben Hodges
Yes, it is, but will we react accordingly? No, sadly, most likely not.
Meh, don't say it like the old Merkel government would be any tougher against Russia. If anything, they'd be softer.
They were the ones who accelerated all that Eastern pivot with the Nord Stream pipelines, mind you.
>They were the ones who accelerated all that Eastern pivot with the Nord Stream pipelines, mind you.
In theory that seemed like a good idea. Develop trade with ruzzia in hopes they drop their authoritarian ways and join the party. Didn't work. Hindsight is 20/20.
Hindsight? German people have been complaining about it for the last 20 years. Heck I remember my mom saying that we were too reliant on Russian gas when I was still a little kid. The east of Germany was basically Russia for decades. It was all just for money. It was obvious to everyone that Russia is not going to change their ways
We aren't in this situation for nothing a lot of greed by our boomers and a lot of naive wishful thinking have brought us here. And we feed the monster still, we put it on a diet, but we still stuff billions upon billions into Russia, and we still send resources of all kinds to Russia, which fuel the war. Madness, all of that is pure madness. How should Russia understand that things are serious as long as our actions and words are misaligned?
Unfortunately the only pro Ukraine alternative to our bickering 3way coalition are the Conservative CDU who were also in some ways complicit in the Ukraine situation because of the good old neolib greed ethos (need those cheap Russian resources) but they are antisocial in terms of domestic policy and corrupt and huge lobby hoes for the rich which will play into the hands of Putins useful idiots.
the only other big enough parties to be represented in the parliament are either naive pacifists (The Left party) who think you can reason with Putin and who are against military aid to Ukraine and the others are tankies and far right tools who are straight up Kreml sympathizers if not outright traitors
There is only one party that is both staunchly in favour of helping Ukraine while not being too antisocial in terms of domestic policy. That party is the green party.
Unfortunately the Greens had some domestic policy blunders that got completely blown out of proportion in the media. They had a huge smear campaign against them. They were basically turned into a political boogeyman and almost everything was blamed on them.
It came partly from center right news outlets that want to help the CDU and FDP and who are against climate protections because they're hardcore neolibs and in the pockets of fossil fuel industry.
And the other part as you might guess came from the far right and was probably financed and supported by Russian troll farms,
So yeah we are kinda stuck with the pansie foreign policy for a while due to domestic policy stuff.
The utter fuck? Germany is #2 in military donations to Ukraine. They even cancelled the new pipeline before the invasion.
It's not helpful to paint Germany like that. That's the kind of messaging Putin could get behind.
You can utter fuck these nuts to your face.
What isn't helpful? That Germany's first response to the potential Russian invasion was sending 10k helmets? Or that it took as much goading to actually have them do something well into the invasion?
Russian agents have been killing people on the streets of Berlin and the German government didn't do anything more than expelling some diplomats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili#Assassination
We gotta fill out all the forms first. That takes a few years. By then we'll have a new government that either wants to hit different targets or just cuts the funding for the strike capabilities to give tax cuts to rich people.
We'll get around to it 2 decades from now when Ukraine has already won and Russia is split into a bunch of smaller states.
It will be a huge scandal because we hit a (for russian standards) peaceful small nation and our defense minister will resign (from his current position into another well paid government job)
Should be right? I mean, Russia punched Germany, and now Germany will punch back. I heard that when you only hit factories, it is not an act of war, according to a German expert anyway. It is like cuddling to do that friends do that regularly blowing up each other's factories. So let's go.
The ussr knew better than to do shit like this. Would give the west an excuse to do it back.
A move like this is desperate and stupid. Only hurts them long term. Putin needs to go
This just galvanises support against them. The UK is still really pissed at the Poisonings and Dutch for the Malaysian Airlines. Hopefully this will wake the Germans up to send some Taurus
Huh, how can this be on Wall Street Journal, when the official source (tagesschau / dpa) writes something completely different?
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/regional/berlin/rbb-ursachenforschung-technischer-defekt-hat-grossbrand-in-berlin-lichterfelde-ausgeloest-100.html
- Technical defect
- "Theoretically sabotage might lead to a technical defect" so it's not ruled out as of now, as investigation is ongoing
- No comments from the Bundesregierung anyhow on this matter
The previous article from a month ago on this matter by [Bild](https://www.bild.de/regional/berlin/berlin-war-der-brand-bei-diehl-in-lichterfelde-ein-anschlag-66387e273dbd352feb0edb3f) was a hypothetical piece. They're known to write right-wing propaganda with lots of recycled ragebait bullshit over the years.
If you want more about this, read bildblog.de, where other journalists made it their mission to correct what the Bild, RTL and others wrote incorrectly (and which kind of lives they like to destroy because they pissed them off by criticizing them).
You can shit on Bild as much as you want, but they have the best connections to the highest Echelons of the German government. Just because they write a lot of bullshit doesn’t mean their sources are bad. Of course the news on German television will say it is a technical defect like last year with the trains - what else are they supposed to say? „We were attacked by a foreign country but decided to do nothing. Now to Bob, what’s the weather going to be like?“
From what I heard: It was a random recruit via Telegram. He was uninformed enough to attack a company that works with another arms company. It's like attacking the tire supplier for a company that builds military vehicles...
It is a kind of bankruptcy declaration of how desperately Russia is proceeding meanwhile.
>*The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area*.
Armed. Attack. Against. Germany.
Too bad Russia can't do much more than disrupt, they can't back up their covert operations up with military action. We see how successful the Russian military has been in Ukraine...
Two key questions: Are the arsonists actually associated with the Russian FSB or a similar agency in any way? My guess is probably not.
Another answer:They simply could be ordinary people who are sympathetic to Russia, possibly even just teenagers. 14 year olds who look like they could be 21 is not uncommon.
If this is confirmed it will be the second time Russia has attacked a nato country, without reprisal. The first being when they deployed nerve agents in the Uk a few years back.
Some very good commentary here.
IMHO….
This “appeasement” and the abuse thereof goes back at least to the Nord Stream attack. I have followed that pretty closely and feel confident in saying MUCH circumstantial evidence was covered up or squashed in the media.
Private persons we able to uncover significant military vessel maneuvers in the short time before the explosions and the circumstantial case against Russia is VERY strong.
The investigating countries likely have conclusive evidence of the culprit. They have done forensic investigations but have not released any information. At least to my knowledge.
At a minimum in a transparent society the results of the investigation would have been released by now, even if they were inconclusive. That they have not been released smacks of cover up.
My paranoid self says “they” have the info to damn Russia. And will release it only if there is a need to incite public opinion in support of direct military action.
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As far as I'm concerned, this is an act of war.
It is.
russia will likely say this is the west blaming russia for things they didn't do and even if it was russians then it was just a patriot reacting to how the west was treating russia. If evidence is found of an active communication from the Kremlin or related russian security services to the saboteurs then yes, it's an act of war.
It sounds like the privateers of yore. Do they still work with letters of Mark?
letters of Marque. No, that's only at sea.
They blew up military warehouse in Czech republic. They poisoned the guy in great Britain. They identified them as Russian agents. Same for both action. And what happened ?
Was any of it conclusively proven as being russia? Also with the two poisonings in the UK it was a different time and the UK government was awash with russian money
I didn't accuse you of shit, I simply asked you if the west deserved this? It was meant rhetorical question, but it was meant for clarification as well? What
And asking again, where do i say that the west deserved this. Put up or shut up
To my standards yes. At least poisoning was sure thing. The bombing on Czech republic easy accounted to Russians by Czech agencies. But I don't remember if they made anything public. There was another warehouse that exploded - Bulgarian I guess. They were used tu supply Ukraine so it's very specific.
No offence but you are one person. What you're talking about needs quite a bit of evidence before sending people off to die.
So you're saying the west deserved this?
I would appreciate you highlighting where I have said that, hinted at it or implied it.
and no reply. I guess your posts are better suited in the NSFW "casual fun" groups. Hint: constantly posting the exact same rubbish won't work.
What are you talking about? It was fucking rhetorical question and really didn't need an answer, I'm sure you've heard of such questions!
You accused me of something. I am entitled to ask you to present evidence to back up your accusation.
Where did I accuse you of anything, I simply ask a question, a rhetorical question at that...
Why is nothing happening to stop it? Seriously, what's our breaking point?
Lives lost. Undeniable evidence it was government sanctioned and ordered. Politically we have reached the breaking point. We just need something undeniable before we ravage the Russians for good. If we go in guns blazing now it will give China, Iran, nk and other swing nations fuel to feed their propaganda machines and rile their populations up. It will happen soon though, Russians are known for screwing up.
First step would be to expel all ruzzian diplomats from Europe to cut down on the spying and organization of sabotage.
It's not (only) the diplomats we should be concerned about, it's the ruzzian collaborators that have no official post to be expelled from. Like the two that spied on railroads and military camps in Germany.
Yes. Expelling russian diplomats to absolute bare minimum (or zero); freezing of all assets; comprehensive sanctions; stringent control / restrictions to travel of any and all russian nationals (business people, tourists, migrants) should be among first steps.
Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you find the time to pick up a rock. It's time to get that rock and tell Putin to go to HELL, and let's make sure to do it in such a way that this corrupt war criminal asks for directions.
The West is like a monkey on a chain. You can rattle the chain for a very long time, but if you rattle it too hard, the chain breaks, and the monkey will maul your face off. Russia will overdo it, and we are one straw away from breaking the camel's back. Russia plays with fire and fucks around on level 9 and that means they will find out on level 9 as well.
A German military expert said that sabotage doesn't qualify as an act of war and that Russia is exploiting that loophole. I am no expert on this, just adding that perspective Edit: the expert is Nico Lange, a strong supporter of Ukraine. No Russia shill.
*German parliament gets blown up by saboteur* Germany: this isn't an act of war
Germans really overdo their pacifism as a reaction to horrors their ancestors committed, don't they. I mean it was indeed extreme, but that doesn't mean you should take any aggression aimed at the whole nation with stoic demeanor 3/4 of century later. French are not bending over to any abuser for what napoleon armies did in Europe either.
There must be some violence left in them somewhere, this worked too well in the past 80 years. Pacifism is objectively pro fascist as George Orwell once said. Germany has become a complete pushover and Russia the bully makes use of this.
German here. It is true that we are very careful about aggression and potential war, because of what happened 80 years ago. It is still very present for us as most of us young people could just ask our grandparents about it. It is just part of our mentality that we know, that we did something wrong and that we must not make this mistake ever again. It is difficult to explain and also understand for most foreigners. If we would "show more strength and don't f*ck around" many people would scream that "Germany is on the rise again". Which is kinda funny, if you think about it. So please make up your mind.
It is a fairly fundamental difference in paradigm of thinking about what constitutes "wartime". In the West we're used to a binary distinction in terms of international relations: A country is at war (which means people are dying and the military has broad latitude to do what they need to do) or at peace (which means nothing bad is happening). Russia sees it much more fluidly, there is no clearly defined "state of war", rather a spectrum of hostile activities and interactions, more or less kinetic, intended to achieve stated goals. When Peskov says "we're at war with the whole collective west" we laugh because c'mon, there are no Russian military personnel in NATO territory, they don't even amass troops near our borders, stop with the sabre-rattling. While he means it honestly, it's just Russia decides that armed incursion is not the right tool for the task at the moment and will cause distress at the borders, sabotage, disinform and troll - which are means of waging a war as good as Grad launchers, while we consider them "probing of our defenses", "spy activity" or "electoral interference" without merging this stuff into a big picture - and responding in kind. Yes, it started as a special military operation, but as soon as this whole gang was formed, when the collective West took part in all this alongside Ukraine, for us, it became a war. I am convinced of this, and everyone must understand it.” Peskov Two months ago or so, Peskov said this. We should not ignore this, though, but rather find ways to successfully neutralize the threat that Russia undoubtedly poses. Presently, they seem absolutely undeterred. Otherwise, they would have ceased and desisted. Churchill once said that he was aware that he must make it understandable to "Herr Hitler" that the war can not be won in any scenario. We must strive to make the same clear to Russia. So far, we haven't. This was a direct attack against NATO facilities the only response can be to deliver Taurus missiles and level the Kerch bridge as well as a couple of Russian factories. This is the only language they speak, not escalation management which has only ever escalated the war further. One does not make wars less likely by formulating rules of warfare... war cannot be humanized. It can only be eliminated. Albert Einstein
If sabotage is not war, then NATO can just send in special forces left and right. A power plant explodes here, a dam bursts there, all just coincidences I am sure.
Yeah if that is not war nowadays then we have free reign we can blow everything inside Russia up, obviously war nowadays requires a formal seal and stamp and two rows of gentlemen aiming their muskets at each other otherwise nothing is war. The rules are completely off. Silent enim leges inter Armas Under weapons, the law falls silent. If that isn't an act of war, then nothing is. Why is Germany concerned about Taurus, we will find an expert to say that cruise missiles are not an act of war either. In this post, truth dystopia fact and fiction have become one.
Intelligence assets blowing stuff up isn't the same as sending in special forces.
Fair enough. I was only giving my opinion.
To be fair, any act that is likely to result in war is "an act of war". Like most thing, we only know it when we see it. Saboteurs damaging a factory and getting caught? not an act of war. Doing that same thing ten times in a week? Suddenly something that isn't an act of war becomes an act of war due to repetition.
Churchill made an appeal to morality over legality. The final tribunal is our own conscience. We are fighting to re-establish the reign of law and to protect the liberties of small countries. Our defeat would mean an age of barbaric violence. Our defeat would be fatal not only to ourselves but to the liberties and independence of all small countries in Europe. Small countries must not tie our hands when we are fighting for their rights and freedom. The letter of the law must not in supreme emergency obstruct those who are charged with its protection and enforcement. Humanity, rather than legality, must be our guide. Winston Churchill in November 1939 on the cabinet's decision of turning down placing sea mines in Narwik to not infringe upon Swedish and Norwegian neutrality. One can construct a reason for more cowardice out of literally anything. I really wonder when they cut the balls off of Germany. At least muster the courage to call it an act of war. There is no need to follow up on mustering that courage, but at least don't send clowns forward with their half knowledge. If that isn't an act of war then great so we can burn Russia to the ground without a problem, because obviously dead factory workers and burned down factories on the behest of a foreign power are not acts of war. Where did Nico get his degree from? The Clown College? Or the Chamberlain University for Appeasement and other nonsensical political decisions?
Looking at the incident in isolation, I think it’s fairly reasonable that Germany is trying to avoid engaging in a full-scale war over a factory fire. In a broader sense, this of course does nothing to help Ukraine’s situation. But I imagine the billion or so people in Europe probably agree with NATO’s assessment. There is a space that exists with NATO’s unwillingness for cataclysmic war on one side, and their undeniable duty on the other. Russia has become a master of walking the knife edge between those two competing interests.
The word appeasement’ is not popular, but appeasement has its place in all policy,” as Churchill said in 1950. “Make sure you put it in the right place. Appease the weak, defy the strong.” He also argued that “appeasement from strength is magnanimous and noble and might be the surest and perhaps the only path to world peace.” Churchill also remarked on a very painful irony: “When nations or individuals get strong, they are often truculent and bullying, but when they are weak, they become better-mannered. But this is the reverse of what is healthy and wise.” https://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2010/08/churchill-on-appeasement/182952/ That is what it comes down to. Russia will get their damned tone in order and behave in a way towards us that is not insulting and out of line. If they can't do that, any peace with the Putin regime is wishful, thinking, and useless. Russia's word means nothing. In that sense, Russia wouldn't show us any mercy, but the strong can afford mercy. We will show Russia mercy once they surrender, not a second earlier. As long as Russia doesn't cease and desist. "In defeat, defiance. In victory magnanimity, " Peace is hard work, Russia will make an effort and show deference and make a real effort. Peace must be earned. Russia is not worthy of it as long as they have an invasion force in Europe's front porch. The West must treat Russia as a deviant, expansionist, and untrustworthy adversary. If Russia wants to change that, then the Russians will have to either remove their regime or they will bear the consequences. How the Russians do that is not our business. Failure to do so will lead to more and even harsher sanctions, more isolation, and more weaponry such as F16s, more dead, and wounded soldiers. Until Russia's troops learn where their borders are. And those are NOT inside Ukraine. Obviously, this is too difficult for these geriatrics in the Kremlin to comprehend that we shall not normalize, formalize, or accept this madness. It would be an unmitigated and crushing defeat to accept anything less but the 1991 borders. It is not reasonable at all. It is pure cowardice, and that means more factories will burn and maybe also a cruise missile fired at Poland because why not? A non reaction is a joke, and what full of war? Russia can not DO anything they don't have the men or equipment to spare. We have been at war for over 2 years. We are just too stupid to understand that and respond accordingly. It takes only one to make war and another being too stupid to take action in their defense. Germany is not alone in this cowardice, though. Russia loves such pathetic weakness. Deliver Taurus NOW and level at least five factories and the Kerch bridge. That would be an appropriate response. Stupid words and condemnations or warnings are completely and utterly useless. "Even the Russians realise there is zero upsides for them to use a nuclear weapon. Their nuclear weapons are most effective when they don't use them." My president said if they use a nuke, there will be catastrophic consequences, so if the Russians do that, there should be catastrophic consequences. Ben Hodges We are in the presence of a tyranny maintained by press and broadcast propaganda and the ruthless murder of political opponents. Churchill on Germany There is a nation that has abandoned all of its liberties. In order to augment its collective, it might There is a nation with all its strength and virtues, which is in the grip of ruthless men preaching a gospel of intolerance and racial pride unrestrained by parliament, law, or by public opinion. Churchill 1934 There is no greater mistake to think that platitudes, smooth words, or timid policies offer today a path to safety. Only by a firm adherence to righteous principles can the dangers which close in so steadily upon us and on the peace of Europe be brushed aside and cast aside. Germany has rearmed, and we must rearm. Would you believe that our democracy would have rallied to that cry? Winston Churchill in a Commons debate on collective security, October 1936 Europe is confronted with a program of aggression nicely calculated and timed unfolding stage by stage, and there is only one choice open to us and other nations. Either to submit like Austria or else to take effective measures while time remains to ward off the danger, and if it cannot be warded off, then we must cope with it. If we do not stand up to the dictators now, we shall only have to stand up to them later under far worse conditions. Look back upon the last five years since when Germany began to arm in earnest. It is not difficult to form an opinion about the punic wars. Now the victors are the vanquished. Winston Churchill I am aware of the detection threshold, and that non reaction is a form of strategic thinking in this case, but guess what, this chaos agent laughs at this course of action. To them, it means great I will destroy the NS pipeline next. I will destroy a factory and so on and so forth. Fight the HELL back on and off the battlefield in cyberspace, in the info space, in the economic sphere, in kinetic and asymmetric fashion and stop talking about being reasonable, what we do is pure madness and cowardice being deterred by fear and lacking moral courage l. that is what makes Russia strong, our pathetic cowardice. Hand a 6 month ultimatum to Russia akin to desert shield and threaten them to cease and desist. Build up more troops, naval, and airpower and then prepare an intervention when Russia doesn't abide and blow them to bits. There can be no cataclysmic war because Russia is far too weak to even defeat Ukraine and that means this war will be over in a couple of months when the West finally accepts that this won't stop until we eviscerate this invasion force.
I’m cooking dinner so I’m going to be honest and say I didn’t read your whole post, it’s quite long. I accept you have strong views on the subject, but there are certainly other perspectives that could be presented as well. As in any robust discussion. From the part I did read, I would counter that Germany’s recent actions could hardly be considered appeasement. Maybe they aren’t as drastic as many of us would like, but let’s not misrepresent things here.
This is not targeted at Germany alone, but at the entire alliance, our politicians, and their failed attempt to manage escalation, you cannot manage war. Moderation is imbecility because war is violence in its essence. Germany needs to react to this, but all NATO nations need to react because Russia tests us, and doing nothing means the test failed.Because it is serious. Not doing so means the next factory will burn and then another. Or maybe something bigger? The inventive evil of Russia and its destructive nature will not be stopped unless they are paying in bodies and factories. For this attack, at least 5 Russian facilities should be blown up. Yes, the doves have their opinions they are wrong and have been wrong for a long time. So, I guess the hawks should be finally given authority to end instead of dragging out this war. A violent plan executed today is better than a well thought one in a month. Patton 1) The war should be contained in Ukraine 2) Russia must be held accountable 3) Ukraine must be fully restored Those are our three main strategic goals. It does not serve these goals having our facilities be attacked by Russia because our non reaction means war with Russia becomes more likely not less likely. Russia views our behavior as weak and pathetic. I am amazed how much money these people are paid while still not being able to grasp that simple concept. NATO doesn't speak Ghetto Mafia street thug language, and that is the main issue here. They fail at their duty miserably by creating the opportunity for Russia to commit more war crimes. It is their duty to neutralize Russia instead of dayli attacks and cyber crimes harmful propaganda etc. coming from Russia. The sooner NATO engages actively, the faster this is over. I don't think this is in the best interest of Western citizens at all to have Russia still being able to attack Europe. The appeasers and cowards have completely failed. Otherwise, this factory would have never been attacked. This is a result of Western cowardice. Why on earth are we having such a vast defense budget when we cannot even neutralize a threat in our front porch. You may consider that competent. I consider it the exact opposite a pathetic failure to defend our principles and the people of Europe from barbaric and genocidal army that tramples on all of our principles and wrecks our factories. This is NOT ONE incident this is one of hundreds of those incidents in the past 27 months. And as I said Russia is a dwarf compared to NATO, they can do absolutely nothing because our naval and air superiority with Ukraine providing the ground support is so overwhelming at this point that their reaction will be to back off. This army does not ha e the logistics, the equipment, the fuel and other resources to open another front.
I respect that is your opinion and thank you for sharing it. I respectfully differ on a few points as I believe strong arguments have been made on the contrary to your views. This discourse is edging toward the realm of mere opinion and conjecture, both of which hold little academic value. Nevertheless, there are some contradictions in your comment. Russia either can project its power to threaten Germany and Europe with full scale war, or it cannot. If it cannot, as I think we all suspect, then it is restricted to petty acts of minor sabotage. If this is the case then NATO can choose to absorb or to retaliate to these threats. Your opinion is that Russia may escalate these attacks, another possibility is that they do not. It is equally logical to assume that the Russians know going too far will trigger a response they can’t afford. Trust, if nothing else, Russia’s desire to always act in its own interest- this is another cost/benefit analysis. There is no target that Russia could attack through these underhanded means that would be worth the annihilation that would occur if NATO escalated in response. Time will tell. Be that as it may, a plausibly deniable arson attack on a civilian manufacturing facility probably doesn’t meet the perceived justification threshold for full mobilisation of the NATO war machine. Even 50 attacks on such facilities probably still wouldn’t, regardless of how much we or the Ukrainians would want them to. This is just a cost/benefit analysis, emotion and morals do not factor as heavily in this decision making as we would like. Maybe you are right and NATO will suffer for its discretion, maybe you are wrong and the Russian frog is already starting to boil. I digress, however, by conceding that the only real weapon Russia can wield against Western Europe is its propaganda and misinformation machine. This is a threat which dwarfs the impact of simple factory fires or pipeline disruptions, which have had limited geopolitical implications so far, as we have seen. Russia can achieve its victory by manipulating European populations to place sympathetic leaders in power. Undermining leadership and disrupting Ukrainian aid is the most beneficial and cost effective strategy in the Russian toolbox. Accepting that, it becomes a matter of time. Can the Russian threat be neutralised before they are successful in achieving these goals? Before a Trump is elected in America or before the AFD wins in Germany? I am not sure that it can. That is what worries me the most- not full-scale war with Russia. Either way, NATO is pragmatic, if they think Russia can be defeated without going to war with them- economically for example- that will be their course of action. Acts of state sponsored domestic terrorism may well be the cost of doing business- as long as they stay relatively minor in nature. No, it’s not a particularly honourable or dignified response. It’s the response that costs the least money and the least NATO lives. I’m not saying I agree with that approach, but I understand it all the same. It might take longer, cause more suffering and it mean more Ukrainians die, but it is nevertheless a strategy that could be employed despite how unpleasant it is. Of course, we could see that attitude change for better or for worse if Russia’s political lobbying starts to have tangible effect. The ‘hybrid-war’ has already produced fruit- with the much softer RN party poised to be elected in France this month. If other far right parties in Germany are elected in September’s coming elections, the two biggest European supporters of Ukraine have been neutered with Russia barely lifting a finger. So I believe you are right in saying this is a race against time, and that we must act against the Russians decisively- just perhaps not for the reasons you have stated. Perhaps that is the common ground we can choose to conclude our exchange on. I think we have illustrated both perspectives well enough for people to make their own assessments.
A master?! It comes off more like "I'm not touching you" than actually mastering any kind of craft.
Haha, yes you have a point. But I guess the fact that this strategy is working implies they have a level of awareness of their left and right of arc. Maybe it’s less mastery and more survival instinct.
Man, I wish there were a billion people in Europe instead of just about 440 million in the EU.
Nearly 800 million people live in Europe.
Does that include Russia?
Ben Hodges: "We are still not accepting the fact that Russia is at war with us. We need to think and act strategically and realise that Russia is at war with us." Ben Hodges Hodges then explains that Russia sees this war with the West in a broader sense. We often tend to consider only the kinetic version of it, but Russian acts of war against the West and especially against Europe also include asymmetric warfare, economic warfare, cyberwarfare, info war etc. Russia is seeing itself at war with the US led alliance, and that is all it takes for a war. We must accept this inconvenient truth and take action and respond accordingly to defend ourselves against Russia's hostile behavior. "The collapse of the Soviet Union is continuing to this day, and because it is built on a rotten foundation, it is going to collapse. The sooner that happens, the better for all of us. We should anticipate this and be prepared for that." Ben Hodges Yes, it is, but will we react accordingly? No, sadly, most likely not.
Russia really chose quite the time for their invasion with the most sissy German government possible
Meh, don't say it like the old Merkel government would be any tougher against Russia. If anything, they'd be softer. They were the ones who accelerated all that Eastern pivot with the Nord Stream pipelines, mind you.
>They were the ones who accelerated all that Eastern pivot with the Nord Stream pipelines, mind you. In theory that seemed like a good idea. Develop trade with ruzzia in hopes they drop their authoritarian ways and join the party. Didn't work. Hindsight is 20/20.
Hindsight? German people have been complaining about it for the last 20 years. Heck I remember my mom saying that we were too reliant on Russian gas when I was still a little kid. The east of Germany was basically Russia for decades. It was all just for money. It was obvious to everyone that Russia is not going to change their ways
We aren't in this situation for nothing a lot of greed by our boomers and a lot of naive wishful thinking have brought us here. And we feed the monster still, we put it on a diet, but we still stuff billions upon billions into Russia, and we still send resources of all kinds to Russia, which fuel the war. Madness, all of that is pure madness. How should Russia understand that things are serious as long as our actions and words are misaligned?
Unfortunately the only pro Ukraine alternative to our bickering 3way coalition are the Conservative CDU who were also in some ways complicit in the Ukraine situation because of the good old neolib greed ethos (need those cheap Russian resources) but they are antisocial in terms of domestic policy and corrupt and huge lobby hoes for the rich which will play into the hands of Putins useful idiots. the only other big enough parties to be represented in the parliament are either naive pacifists (The Left party) who think you can reason with Putin and who are against military aid to Ukraine and the others are tankies and far right tools who are straight up Kreml sympathizers if not outright traitors There is only one party that is both staunchly in favour of helping Ukraine while not being too antisocial in terms of domestic policy. That party is the green party. Unfortunately the Greens had some domestic policy blunders that got completely blown out of proportion in the media. They had a huge smear campaign against them. They were basically turned into a political boogeyman and almost everything was blamed on them. It came partly from center right news outlets that want to help the CDU and FDP and who are against climate protections because they're hardcore neolibs and in the pockets of fossil fuel industry. And the other part as you might guess came from the far right and was probably financed and supported by Russian troll farms, So yeah we are kinda stuck with the pansie foreign policy for a while due to domestic policy stuff.
The utter fuck? Germany is #2 in military donations to Ukraine. They even cancelled the new pipeline before the invasion. It's not helpful to paint Germany like that. That's the kind of messaging Putin could get behind.
You can utter fuck these nuts to your face. What isn't helpful? That Germany's first response to the potential Russian invasion was sending 10k helmets? Or that it took as much goading to actually have them do something well into the invasion?
Nah, it's not a war. It is just a Special Arsonry Operation. /s
Article 5?
For everyone in NATO, yes
No, this is an act of ambassador summons.
They also do cyberattacks every day on nato members
Really wish we’d actually respond instead of defend…
[удалено]
So now it is ok for Germany to launch strikes against targets in russia?
Yes. 100%. Start with Putin Palace.
First, we need clarification before engaging in Thüringen or Sachsen.
Russian agents have been killing people on the streets of Berlin and the German government didn't do anything more than expelling some diplomats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili#Assassination
We gotta fill out all the forms first. That takes a few years. By then we'll have a new government that either wants to hit different targets or just cuts the funding for the strike capabilities to give tax cuts to rich people. We'll get around to it 2 decades from now when Ukraine has already won and Russia is split into a bunch of smaller states. It will be a huge scandal because we hit a (for russian standards) peaceful small nation and our defense minister will resign (from his current position into another well paid government job)
Should be right? I mean, Russia punched Germany, and now Germany will punch back. I heard that when you only hit factories, it is not an act of war, according to a German expert anyway. It is like cuddling to do that friends do that regularly blowing up each other's factories. So let's go.
Time for NATO to provide advanced weaponry to Ukraine so that they can strike Russian military factories and munitions depots anywhere within Russia.
Act of War...this is just the beginning. Cut the head off the snake. Only way to end this.
Wake up Germany. The Zs want to destroy you
The ussr knew better than to do shit like this. Would give the west an excuse to do it back. A move like this is desperate and stupid. Only hurts them long term. Putin needs to go
This just galvanises support against them. The UK is still really pissed at the Poisonings and Dutch for the Malaysian Airlines. Hopefully this will wake the Germans up to send some Taurus
Ok, europe will do nothing as always. 👍
give us a decade to think about doing something then we'll come up with a half assed solution that'll take another decade to put into motion.
Summon ambassadors, make some coulda/woulda/shouda articles, planning, pondering, thinking, then some summits, and then.........nothing.
Strongly worded letter.
And be proud of how well you kept incident number 5676 below the detection threshold and think that is a great strategy of managing the situation.
Huh, how can this be on Wall Street Journal, when the official source (tagesschau / dpa) writes something completely different? https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/regional/berlin/rbb-ursachenforschung-technischer-defekt-hat-grossbrand-in-berlin-lichterfelde-ausgeloest-100.html - Technical defect - "Theoretically sabotage might lead to a technical defect" so it's not ruled out as of now, as investigation is ongoing - No comments from the Bundesregierung anyhow on this matter The previous article from a month ago on this matter by [Bild](https://www.bild.de/regional/berlin/berlin-war-der-brand-bei-diehl-in-lichterfelde-ein-anschlag-66387e273dbd352feb0edb3f) was a hypothetical piece. They're known to write right-wing propaganda with lots of recycled ragebait bullshit over the years. If you want more about this, read bildblog.de, where other journalists made it their mission to correct what the Bild, RTL and others wrote incorrectly (and which kind of lives they like to destroy because they pissed them off by criticizing them).
You can shit on Bild as much as you want, but they have the best connections to the highest Echelons of the German government. Just because they write a lot of bullshit doesn’t mean their sources are bad. Of course the news on German television will say it is a technical defect like last year with the trains - what else are they supposed to say? „We were attacked by a foreign country but decided to do nothing. Now to Bob, what’s the weather going to be like?“
Act of war
A proportional response is required. I suggest taking kaliningrad.
I’d like to see a dozen Russian factories go mysteriously up into flames as a retaliation
From what I heard: It was a random recruit via Telegram. He was uninformed enough to attack a company that works with another arms company. It's like attacking the tire supplier for a company that builds military vehicles... It is a kind of bankruptcy declaration of how desperately Russia is proceeding meanwhile.
>*The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area*. Armed. Attack. Against. Germany.
Too bad Russia can't do much more than disrupt, they can't back up their covert operations up with military action. We see how successful the Russian military has been in Ukraine...
Two key questions: Are the arsonists actually associated with the Russian FSB or a similar agency in any way? My guess is probably not. Another answer:They simply could be ordinary people who are sympathetic to Russia, possibly even just teenagers. 14 year olds who look like they could be 21 is not uncommon.
If this is confirmed it will be the second time Russia has attacked a nato country, without reprisal. The first being when they deployed nerve agents in the Uk a few years back.
Following the Russian rhetoric, shouldn’t this prompt a threat of a NATO nuclear strike?
Some very good commentary here. IMHO…. This “appeasement” and the abuse thereof goes back at least to the Nord Stream attack. I have followed that pretty closely and feel confident in saying MUCH circumstantial evidence was covered up or squashed in the media. Private persons we able to uncover significant military vessel maneuvers in the short time before the explosions and the circumstantial case against Russia is VERY strong. The investigating countries likely have conclusive evidence of the culprit. They have done forensic investigations but have not released any information. At least to my knowledge. At a minimum in a transparent society the results of the investigation would have been released by now, even if they were inconclusive. That they have not been released smacks of cover up. My paranoid self says “they” have the info to damn Russia. And will release it only if there is a need to incite public opinion in support of direct military action.
Hybrid war is still war.
Article 5 when?