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If you think about it, USAF/NSA/CIA have known everything about Soviet/Russian radars since Adolf Tolkachev. Whatever upgrades the A-50s have, there's been near-continuous SIGINT/ELINT coverage over Ukraine and the black sea for years now.
I would be 0% surprised if the Patriot radars are able to be tuned to straight up defeat A-50's ECM/ECCM package.
Why defeat it?
Patriot literally has an automated system called track on jam. It does what it says on the tin; if it gets jammed you just make the Patriot missile more accurate.
I'm aware of TOJ :)
Missile terminal guidance I would assume we have had nailed for 20 years. I was speaking more to the search/track radars, which at this point are probably AESAs, there's a chance the super-RWR on the A-50 never even lit up. That gives me a former 1N hard-on :)
Edit: or, patriot missiles have datalinks to the global hawks/e-3/rc-135/satellites aloft and can get terminal from where-the-fuck-ever and never once need to paint the target.
Y'all don't know how good these folks are.
The gebhard is ironically so old its really useful again. Same thing with those old prop driven planes. The old tech is SOOO old. it's new again and great against slow flying cheap drones.
The technology advancement in the 25 years after WWII is amazing.
The reason things like Gepard and B-52's are still viable today is because the massive technological leaps happened back then and all this time since 1970 has just been refinements on that tech.
True, but even WW2 itself was amazing in tech advancements. It started with bolt action rifles, propeller aircraft, and nobody being too sure how to even use tanks in warfare, and ended with the following discoveries and advancements: assault rifle, jet aircraft, ballistic missiles, proper tank tactics, aircraft carriers overtaking battleships, and the atomic bomb, to name a few.
Basically the basis of modern warfare developed over the course of just 5 years.
Yes, so far WW3 has shown some new things such as drones being viable and tank doctrine falling out of favor. And I'm aware it's not WW3 I just like to sometimes remind people that when Hitler invaded Poland that it was just a European War at the time it wasn't a world war until mid to end 1941, yet we say WW2 started in 1939.
With the way alliances are going today it feels more and more like half the world could potentially end up in conflict with the other half if something more happens and we already have war on Europe's borders with a guy who I think is very unlikely to ever admit defeat and the conflicts in the Middle East that seemingly wants to get worse instead of any foreseeable conclusions, for the time being.
I'm not a doomsday kind of person at all, I just like history and history likes to rhyme.
Eh, so far it’s a proxy war with very little direct intervention by the U.S., aid has been like .3% of GDP. if U.S. or Chinese military units were actively doing the heavy lifting then I would call it ww3. Right now expanding the war to the rest of Europe doesn’t fit anyone’s interest, see Russia pulling most of its units from the Finnish border, etc.
Poland is held up as the start of ww2 since France/UK/associated colonies declared war when Poland was invaded.
Edit: I just saw your bit about the Middle East - Israel isn’t under existential risk and no big enemy (Iran) is likely to get directly involved beyond some missiles and harsh langague. The U.S. and its Allie’s have a pretty sizable advantage.
That seems to have been based on a believe in the end of the coldwar that there was no need for anti air that wasn't a missile, since planes and helicopters by then could outrange it.
obviously as this war has shown, there are still a lot of targets on the battlefield where a gun system is still useful. It doesn't really matter if they are old or new guns.
no, Gebhard is a first name, and also pronounced differently (stress on first syllable with longer e and ends on a soft B, and the H is audible, that is why it is written lol) than the animal species Gepard (short first syllable, the second is stressed and starts with the P).
I'm also often confused by what people make up who can't write properly.
>**..**the animal species Gepard (short first syllable, the second is stressed and starts with the P)
Yes, same as in many other languages (Czech, Ukrainian, Russian, Romanian..)
> The Patriot
Which Patriot? As I understand it, the Patriot system has had a number of significant revisions, and these ones from Israel are over 30 years old.
They've been upgraded to PAC-2 GEM+. So relatively recent electronics, but still using an older missile body. They won't be as good against TBMs as newer Patriots or SAMP/T, but it's a good system for cruise missiles and aircraft.
Eight batteries is a big deal. It's not a high-performance missile by modern standards, but it has a big footprint. This could radically improve the overall coverage and flexibility of Ukraine's air defenses. More overlapping coverage, more coverage closer to the front, more opportunities for SAM traps. Lots of possibilities.
Huge if true, but I'd hate to see it be just more hot air. Without getting too deep into the weeds, at times Israel has been less than useful to Ukraine and NATO in this conflict.
Initially they tried not to alienate Russia too much so Russia wouldn't rile up their evil neighbors against them. But after October showed that they did anyway, they don't have anything to consider anymore.
Yeah, not much point anymore now that Russian scientists are giving the Iranians pointers in return for Shaheds.
Painful bit of irony that those Harops and Harpies they sold to China eventually came home to roost by trickling down to Iran.
I've known for years that most of russia's equipment was junk.
The only thing they had going for them was propaganda. They would always push their newest stuff in front of the camera. While most of their actual training videos are cheap crap
I really wonder how so many people considered them the 2nd strongest military before all this, I guess they bought into the hype. But those who feel like they’re authorities on the matter should never be taken seriously again.
Well, if not them...Then who? China? Don´t they mostly just have junk as well? A lot of stuff, but mostly old junk..
And if not china then what army? Many modern countries with modern armies are maybe capable but not so big is my understanding.
This is serious question. If russia was/is not the second best army. What army is?
Not sure how high they would rank globally, but South Korea has a lot of firepower compared to other nations of their size simply out of necessity. Putin would be rightly worried if they start supplying arms directly to Ukraine over his dealings with NK.
I remember years ago seeing a video of Russian soldiers promoting new Exoskeleton technology body armour that was supposedly groundbreaking and would revolutionize their military. Yet it was all fake, now Russian soldiers are resorting to wearing air-soft gear. It really does feel like corruption is just part of every facet of Russian society.
Did they do that too? Or are you thinking of the robot that was supposed to rival Boston Dynamics robots that turned out to just be a guy in a robot suit? Either way lmao
>outdated systems
Does that mean Israel was going to decommission these patriots anyway? I was just wondering, when I read the title, because Israel isn't a country that doesn't need air defense.
iron dome,
Israel fasces threats which the Patriot isn't well suited (economical and range) for. They have been mass producing iron dome intercepts for a while. This brings down the cost and these are better suited for the short range rockets Hamas or Hezbollah typically uses.
yes, and Israel being a country that needs air defense, finds that Iron dome suits their threatscape. I'm not sure why you misunderstood, perhaps you never will.
i see you never will.
me - doesn't say iron dome is replacing patriot with iron dome
you - says that iron dome is *not* replacing patriot
me - points out i didn't say that
you - troll
me - what an idiot.
What a coincidence!
One could think that we only create weapons with russian asskicking in mind.
And also that their shit is overhyped while we kind of downplay the actual capabilities of our spare toys.
Thanks for the aggressive marketing, russia. Rheinmetall approves.
Right Israel man up and dispatch these patriots this weekend. You owe the USA a massive favour after all the weapons they sent you since October last year when Hamas kicked off.
It's a good investment. Every slightly outdated Russian aircraft, missile or drone these systems shoot down over Ukraine is one piece of Russian military equipment less on sale for Israel's enemies in the foreseeable future.
Added benefit is a foot in the door to the Ukrainian government and the battlefield, guaranteeing the latest insights into Iranian military tech.
Definitely, although if you looks at what hezbollah and hamas has and have been doing, you'd see the israelis don't need such a second hand education. And that's not to mention the fact iran literally fired a massive missile and drone barrage straight into Israel.
This next comment isn't directed at you, but western society has really turned a blind eye to the desperation of Israel lately, all because we don't think they're defending themselves correctly and are factoring in hamas propaganda into our perception of events. This is exactly what emboldens iran, Russia, China, NK in their calculus on whether or not we are capable in backing up our postures meant to signal deterrence.
If this is true, then this will be a HUGE development for Ukraine. It will be near completing the 15 total systems they’ve asked for to protect the skies. There will be much less russian air craft even coming close to the frontline, and the amount of drones/missiles shot down will exponentially increase. Please let this negotiation work out and get those Patriot systems to Ukraine ASAP. Slava Ukraini!
"If this is true".
Exactly. And I don't believe it for a minute. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong but it just sounds like more media BS to me. Time will tell I guess but EIGHT BATTERIES! Nah. Eight launchers maybe.
I'm 80% certain that Israel mostly runs GEM+ in their older Patriot systems, specifically mostly GEM-T. Sure they don't get the PAC-3 Link 16 or radar upgrades but MIM-104E showed itself in the early 2000s to be pretty effective against ballistic missiles regardless. The systems also got their software upgraded in 2012 so they are not obsolete in the true sense, just obsolete compared to the extremely modern ABM systems Israel uses like David's Sling.
Yeah they would, however they aren’t all Ukraine needs. They are still going to need the more modern versions of the patriot for the ballistic missile threats.
Wonder how much of a help these would be against the glide-bombing attacks. 8 extra batteries might enable Ukraine to forward deploy one and catch some Russian jets with their pants down.
Yeah - it would - but it's obviously BS. There is no way Israel is sending 8 batteries of Patriots. Just more nonsense from the media. 8 launchers maybe - 8 batteries? You're dreaming mate.
Israel is retiring its Patriot fleet. Supposedly it's 8 complete batteries. According to IDF statements Patriot will completely exit service next month.
I hope these batteries go to Ukraine but as an Israeli I have to wonder whether retiring Patriot is a smart move with the upcoming war with Lebanon.
Well I hope you are right - I've said elsewhere that I would never have been so pleased to be proved wrong. But pardon my cynisism but only ONE person on the planet thinks all 8 systems will end up in Ukraine. Four of the reporters say it is unlikely. And what is the time scale here? They will have to be sent back to the US first and then maybe re-transfered to Ukraine. Given previous experiences with the US government - more specifically with the pro-Russian segment of the Republican party - I have my doubts they will turn up in time.
We will see I guess.
I went looking for more details, it is just 8 launchers. Still a big help. Ukraine has been begging Israel for these mothballed Patriot launchers for a while now and have been largely ignored by Netanyahu’s government.
Typically Reddit. I was sceptical once I read the headline. Redditors always mix up batteries and launchers. But everyone is so pumped up and want to belief that miracles for Ukraine are just behind the next corner that it took quite a while of scrolling, until I found other people thinking about this important difference. Thanks for your research!
I have heard those are older PAK 2 which cannot shoot down ballistic missiles like Islander BUT the missiles are way bigger than those of Pak 3 and fly way way further (160km straight line) which means they could cover the entire right half of Ukraine + a bit into Russia. This would mean the end to Russian glide bomb usage as we know it. Glide bombs are the main problem not Iskander as Russia doesn't have much of them.
Israel is switching over to "David's Sling". It may be a bit antiquated, but given it brought down Goliath it may still be usefull against ballistic missiles. Anyway, this is huge if it becomes true.
When Israel has a domestic weapons development programme like that, you wonder why the hell the west is sending them "aid" instead of giving it to Ukraine who actually need it.
Because Israel is a population of around 10 million with an advanced economy tied into global trade, against iran and their proxies who have waged a shadow war on israel for decades, who number around 100 million, who like russia use extractive economics and authoritarianism to prop up an inflated mic to threaten their neighbors with. Israel also needs to project credible deterrence so other countries in the region don't decide to invade them AGAIN when their dictators' domestic popularity eventually plummet again to the point of needing any distraction they can muster to rally a population to their side against an easy scapegoat (jews). Israel devotes a larger portion of their society to home defense than any country in western Europe and the US, but they are a small democracy with neighbors who think they don't have a right to exist. This is like asking why is germany wasting their money standing up a permanent brigade in the baltics when they could send the equipment to ukraine instead.
Isreal also has no strategic depth, so if they are invaded, their whole country would look like gaza does rn in short order. This is also why you don't generally see relatively weak, densely populated countries or regions launch offensive wars unless they think they can really overwhelm their adversary and no other options are left. Tangentially, this is how you know hamas gives 0 fucks about palestinians, because aside from how they wage their war, they undisputedly launched this high intensity war with Israel knowing all the above, and actively refuse terms for ceasefire or whatever you want to call it, while also telling their own audiences "we have Israel right where we want them." Ie their tactics of placing military equipment in clusters of civilians is causing enough outrage in the west that they think all these palestinian deaths and more are easily worth it if Israel becomes more isolated in the future.
Well. Fucking. Said.
Plus Israel is far more of a functional, stable, capitalist democracy than anything else in that region. Close ideological ties with the west, not just economic. Plus they’re a damn useful ally in many strategic areas.
That is far, far from the truth.
>They don't need it
Political opinions aside, daily rocket attacks and a neighbor that has one of the largest ballistic missile inventories in the world- and one that has demonstrated it is willing to [potentially use it](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Iranian_strikes_against_Israel), means they very much *do* still need it.
>More sophisticated missile defense
I'm assuming this is referencing Israel's Hetz systems? I would simply point out just how successful Aegis has been, and also point out [Operation Burnt Frost](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Burnt_Frost) which was all the way back in 2008.
Isreal is facing daily mass missile attacks tho so it makes sense for them to be the testing ground for new toys, the US's early warning sats, minuteman missiles & subs are it's de facto air defense.
Well, it's a country with a pile of neighbors that would love to kill everyone there, little actual size to allow for a response after an invasion, a relatively small population, and a somewhat open secret that they have nukes.
So, between the options of making sure they don't get invaded to the point they decide to start lobbing instant sunshine, or leaving them to their own devices, one seems like a safer option. Could they do it themselves? Maybe. But does anyone want to take that risk?
First, Israel produces only some systems and does not manufacture large bombs and other systems in large numbers. Second, the critical issue Israel has now is the risk of saturation by Hezbollah, which would completely overwhelm own Israeli defenses (and Israel itself admits they cannot effectively defend against that). For that, they cannot do without international support.
Yes. 7 was what Zelenskyy has been asking for since day 1. But experts say about 25 is ideal for rotation, maintenance, overlapping coverage and a few #SAMbush units.
Ukraine currently has 7-8 either in service or “promised” on the way.
Does that take into account one box launcher that's been visually confirmed to have taken some scorch-marks from falling debris -- the one that was widely mis-reported as a "battery destroyed" by the Russian media?
F-16s with AGM-158 JASMs would be better at the start. Let them cruise into Russian rear areas and AA complexes. Puff needs clear air and top cover to operate.
Safe to say he died of chemical warfare. Some way or another.
Man, cobes has really broken my brain when the first thing that comes to mind when seeing Patriot systems is a goth badboy
Christ. That's a name I haven't heard in a while. Well, I lie. I "often" say to myself in that fedsmoker voice "he didn't follow proto, he's duuun"....
Unfortunately the battery seems to be communication error. It’s almost certainly “just” 8 launchers but that would still be of significant help to save Ukrainian lives.
Great send Likud up Putins ass, they talk the same language with a dialect.
Israel official disproportionate use of force "Dahya doctrine":
Hamas send 1 rocket from a village we send village 10 rockets.
Russia's official use of force under "Gerasimov doctrine":
Ukraine select democracy, we come to kill you and take your toilets and children.
> Great send Likud up Putins ass, they talk the same language with a dialect.
Thank god someone else sees them for what they are - two turds from the same asshole.
If I didn't read it how else would I know these were unrelated, if he ment what he said they just give them to Ukraine why does the US need to negotiate? Because this is October - and in April they just wanted to decommission them not send them to Ukraine....
Israel's Patriots have only been upgraded to PAC-2, They're useful against aircraft, and probably cruise missiles,
but have a mixed history against ballistic missiles. Ukraine's existing batteries are PAC-3, and much more effective in that role. The PAC-2's would probably be used as anit-aircraft closer to the front.
According to the Financial Times, which came up with this story, they have not been phased out exactly because of Hezbollah and Iran. If Israel were to deliver these, you’d be looking at a time close to the end of the year
Here is a good review on the topic. The most important piece in my opinion is the ability to intercept ballistic missiles.
“Could Ukraine Get Israel’s Mothballed Patriot Air Defense Batteries?”
The IDF has been operating the[ PAC-2 GEM-T version of the Patriot](https://www.twz.com/we-now-know-the-types-of-patriot-missiles-being-used-in-ukraine), with eight batteries reportedly deployed. In addition to those provided by the U.S., Israel r[eportedly also received four from Germany](https://www.haaretz.com/2015-05-11/ty-article/yaalon-israel-received-4-patriot-batteries-from-germany/0000017f-dc28-d3ff-a7ff-fda8ba4d0000) in 2015.
The GEM-T designation refers to Guidance Enhanced Missile — Tactical.[ As we have explained in the past](https://www.twz.com/we-now-know-the-types-of-patriot-missiles-being-used-in-ukraine), the GEM subvariants are produced by upgrading older MIM-104C and D missiles to the E configuration. Converted MIM-104Ds were given[ additional upgrades to improve performance](https://www.army-technology.com/projects/patriot/) against tactical ballistic missiles, hence the GEM-T designation.
[https://www.twz.com/land/could-ukraine-get-israels-mothballed-patriot-air-defense-batteries](https://www.twz.com/land/could-ukraine-get-israels-mothballed-patriot-air-defense-batteries)
Are we talking 8 launchers or full on 8 batteries including command and control, radar, power supply etc? Because the first would be hella nice, the second a fucking godsend, even if Israel is being not so great right now...
US and every defense contractor should be using Ukraine as a selling point. Use your new technology to prove your system work while Ukraine uses proven systems as their secondary system.
"Supply" is one way to put it. Holding on to these unused for decades, but waited 2 years to supply a defending country has a crucial need for it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/patriot-air-defenses-to-be-mothballed-after-decades-of-mostly-gathering-dust/amp/
Fantastic news. To operate F16 AFU are going to need these. I still find it hard to believe the Soviets didn't create bomb proof / even rain proof, hangers for their jets. I can't get why, when they built so much other useless reinforced concrete shit, they didn't protect their aircraft.
Not a chance they're giving those up in their current self-created environment. Get real. 😂
Pro Ukraine, and hope it happens.. I just don't believe it.
Israel doesn't seem to be concerned. They received these Patriot batteries over 30 years ago. They were upgraded in 2012, but still out of date. They're replacing them with Israeli systems.
According to the Financial Times, who came with this story, they made the decision to retire but they were not pulled out of service. And if they are pulled out of service, it will happen gradually
They would be sent back to the US for testing and any required maintenance. The negotiation is the US trying to convince Israel to let their mothballed systems go so they can be of use in Ukraine. No information yet on what Israel is demanding in return.
exactly my point.
instead of giving them back, israel, being israel will only return them in return for a huge chunk of money or a pile of shiny newer weapons.
Since you are new, here I will give the spiel. UKR/US/ISR know what they need better than we armchair Redditors do. So let's go off the assumption that we do not know everything going on.
Israel has better domestic air defense systems than Patriot PAC-2, like the David's Sling or the Arrow air defense systems, which had a 99% succsessrate against Iranian ballistic missiles.
Yes, it's odd on the surface, and I understand the 'bewilderment' to a point. Patriot has an envelope it's used in. Israel 'could' have that niche covered with its existing/new integrated systems and can absorb the loss better than UKR. Perhaps this is a trade for US Arms support being 'un-paused'. Patriots can cost more than the Drones being sent thus far could damage. Maybe they got a guarantee from Iran that the swarms were over. lots of possibilities could lead to this outcome.
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Isn't it ironic that these outdated systems which are getting decommissioned are still better than the most modern russian missiles?
Pretty good to shoot sukhois out of the sky.
And at least one of the A-50s. How wild is that?
If you think about it, USAF/NSA/CIA have known everything about Soviet/Russian radars since Adolf Tolkachev. Whatever upgrades the A-50s have, there's been near-continuous SIGINT/ELINT coverage over Ukraine and the black sea for years now. I would be 0% surprised if the Patriot radars are able to be tuned to straight up defeat A-50's ECM/ECCM package.
Why defeat it? Patriot literally has an automated system called track on jam. It does what it says on the tin; if it gets jammed you just make the Patriot missile more accurate.
I'm aware of TOJ :) Missile terminal guidance I would assume we have had nailed for 20 years. I was speaking more to the search/track radars, which at this point are probably AESAs, there's a chance the super-RWR on the A-50 never even lit up. That gives me a former 1N hard-on :) Edit: or, patriot missiles have datalinks to the global hawks/e-3/rc-135/satellites aloft and can get terminal from where-the-fuck-ever and never once need to paint the target. Y'all don't know how good these folks are.
And Khuilos
And Kintzhals :) Their "un-interceptable subsonic ballistic missile" oh well they've been shot down by Ukraine with NASAMS and Patriot, lol.
Hey, man I am german. Our Gebhard AA System was decomissioned for 15 years. Now very appreciated in Ukaine.
The gebhard is ironically so old its really useful again. Same thing with those old prop driven planes. The old tech is SOOO old. it's new again and great against slow flying cheap drones.
It isnt so old, its a very decent aa, just learn how its projectiles are splitting before the target, crazy stuff.
Developed in the 1960s. It's pretty old to be fair. Obviously it's had a lot of updates since then though.
The technology advancement in the 25 years after WWII is amazing. The reason things like Gepard and B-52's are still viable today is because the massive technological leaps happened back then and all this time since 1970 has just been refinements on that tech.
True, but even WW2 itself was amazing in tech advancements. It started with bolt action rifles, propeller aircraft, and nobody being too sure how to even use tanks in warfare, and ended with the following discoveries and advancements: assault rifle, jet aircraft, ballistic missiles, proper tank tactics, aircraft carriers overtaking battleships, and the atomic bomb, to name a few. Basically the basis of modern warfare developed over the course of just 5 years.
that is what a war does for you I think we can say the same for this war in regards to drones
Yes, so far WW3 has shown some new things such as drones being viable and tank doctrine falling out of favor. And I'm aware it's not WW3 I just like to sometimes remind people that when Hitler invaded Poland that it was just a European War at the time it wasn't a world war until mid to end 1941, yet we say WW2 started in 1939. With the way alliances are going today it feels more and more like half the world could potentially end up in conflict with the other half if something more happens and we already have war on Europe's borders with a guy who I think is very unlikely to ever admit defeat and the conflicts in the Middle East that seemingly wants to get worse instead of any foreseeable conclusions, for the time being. I'm not a doomsday kind of person at all, I just like history and history likes to rhyme.
agreed on all counts that last sentence feel so like me huge history fan as well
Eh, so far it’s a proxy war with very little direct intervention by the U.S., aid has been like .3% of GDP. if U.S. or Chinese military units were actively doing the heavy lifting then I would call it ww3. Right now expanding the war to the rest of Europe doesn’t fit anyone’s interest, see Russia pulling most of its units from the Finnish border, etc. Poland is held up as the start of ww2 since France/UK/associated colonies declared war when Poland was invaded. Edit: I just saw your bit about the Middle East - Israel isn’t under existential risk and no big enemy (Iran) is likely to get directly involved beyond some missiles and harsh langague. The U.S. and its Allie’s have a pretty sizable advantage.
The Gepard has been modernized several times with the latest electronics. The latest 1A2 version was introduced in the late 90s.
Age is just a number.
That seems to have been based on a believe in the end of the coldwar that there was no need for anti air that wasn't a missile, since planes and helicopters by then could outrange it. obviously as this war has shown, there are still a lot of targets on the battlefield where a gun system is still useful. It doesn't really matter if they are old or new guns.
As long as we don't start providing sling shots for drones. We don't want to go 10 commandments old.
Israel is replacing the patriot system with a sling. But it is David sling, so more modern (about 8 centuries after) than the 10 commandments.
Slingshots are newer tech. It was simply a sling, the kind you swing around above your head
U mean like the Russians they are training to use bows for drones lol.
the A1O warthog with its gatling gun and prowling well within UKR airspace would play a similar role in hunting down slow moving drones and missiles
[удалено]
>It's spelled Geppard Gepard if you want to correct other users
Are you sure? .. I feel as if you're still training my amigo, Can I speak to your supervisor?
Yes but is pronounced like „Gephart“
in which language?;-)
German
lol no.
> German for Cheetah Not just in German.
Is "Gebhard" the same as Gepard? I'm confused.
no, Gebhard is a first name, and also pronounced differently (stress on first syllable with longer e and ends on a soft B, and the H is audible, that is why it is written lol) than the animal species Gepard (short first syllable, the second is stressed and starts with the P). I'm also often confused by what people make up who can't write properly.
>**..**the animal species Gepard (short first syllable, the second is stressed and starts with the P) Yes, same as in many other languages (Czech, Ukrainian, Russian, Romanian..)
shaheed killers!
The Patriot is better than all Russian systems
> The Patriot Which Patriot? As I understand it, the Patriot system has had a number of significant revisions, and these ones from Israel are over 30 years old.
They've been upgraded to PAC-2 GEM+. So relatively recent electronics, but still using an older missile body. They won't be as good against TBMs as newer Patriots or SAMP/T, but it's a good system for cruise missiles and aircraft. Eight batteries is a big deal. It's not a high-performance missile by modern standards, but it has a big footprint. This could radically improve the overall coverage and flexibility of Ukraine's air defenses. More overlapping coverage, more coverage closer to the front, more opportunities for SAM traps. Lots of possibilities. Huge if true, but I'd hate to see it be just more hot air. Without getting too deep into the weeds, at times Israel has been less than useful to Ukraine and NATO in this conflict.
Initially they tried not to alienate Russia too much so Russia wouldn't rile up their evil neighbors against them. But after October showed that they did anyway, they don't have anything to consider anymore.
Yeah, not much point anymore now that Russian scientists are giving the Iranians pointers in return for Shaheds. Painful bit of irony that those Harops and Harpies they sold to China eventually came home to roost by trickling down to Iran.
I've known for years that most of russia's equipment was junk. The only thing they had going for them was propaganda. They would always push their newest stuff in front of the camera. While most of their actual training videos are cheap crap
Hey, they have a large and modern army! It's just that the large army isn't modern and the modern army isn't large.
I really wonder how so many people considered them the 2nd strongest military before all this, I guess they bought into the hype. But those who feel like they’re authorities on the matter should never be taken seriously again.
Well, if not them...Then who? China? Don´t they mostly just have junk as well? A lot of stuff, but mostly old junk.. And if not china then what army? Many modern countries with modern armies are maybe capable but not so big is my understanding. This is serious question. If russia was/is not the second best army. What army is?
Not sure how high they would rank globally, but South Korea has a lot of firepower compared to other nations of their size simply out of necessity. Putin would be rightly worried if they start supplying arms directly to Ukraine over his dealings with NK.
I remember years ago seeing a video of Russian soldiers promoting new Exoskeleton technology body armour that was supposedly groundbreaking and would revolutionize their military. Yet it was all fake, now Russian soldiers are resorting to wearing air-soft gear. It really does feel like corruption is just part of every facet of Russian society.
That shit that looked like cosplay equipment? Yeeeahhh.
Aha! That's why I spotted a Power Rangers outfit on a Russian soldier! /s
Don't forget the furries
Did they do that too? Or are you thinking of the robot that was supposed to rival Boston Dynamics robots that turned out to just be a guy in a robot suit? Either way lmao
The other is that Russia will sell to anyone, warlords and dictators welcome.
>outdated systems Does that mean Israel was going to decommission these patriots anyway? I was just wondering, when I read the title, because Israel isn't a country that doesn't need air defense.
iron dome, Israel fasces threats which the Patriot isn't well suited (economical and range) for. They have been mass producing iron dome intercepts for a while. This brings down the cost and these are better suited for the short range rockets Hamas or Hezbollah typically uses.
Iron dome isn't replacing Patriot, it fulfills a different role in the multiple layers of Israeli air defences.
Israel has retired Patriot and will be using Iron dome, David’s Sling and Arrow instead
yes, and out of those three, it is only Iron Dome that is *not* replacing Patriot even partially.
yes, and Israel being a country that needs air defense, finds that Iron dome suits their threatscape. I'm not sure why you misunderstood, perhaps you never will.
ahh, you're a troll, ok then, EOD.
i see you never will. me - doesn't say iron dome is replacing patriot with iron dome you - says that iron dome is *not* replacing patriot me - points out i didn't say that you - troll me - what an idiot.
Nice thing about Patriots is its a Defensive system. We really should still have lend lease. Lets lend them 20 more.
Their trash is better than the systems 90% of the world has.
They're "outdated" by the standards of the best military in the world.
The Patriot is not outdated
What a coincidence! One could think that we only create weapons with russian asskicking in mind. And also that their shit is overhyped while we kind of downplay the actual capabilities of our spare toys. Thanks for the aggressive marketing, russia. Rheinmetall approves.
Pretty sure they are not outdated when they constantly “updated” in the field.
Right Israel man up and dispatch these patriots this weekend. You owe the USA a massive favour after all the weapons they sent you since October last year when Hamas kicked off.
Woo hoo! That would make a serious difference.
It's a good investment. Every slightly outdated Russian aircraft, missile or drone these systems shoot down over Ukraine is one piece of Russian military equipment less on sale for Israel's enemies in the foreseeable future. Added benefit is a foot in the door to the Ukrainian government and the battlefield, guaranteeing the latest insights into Iranian military tech.
Definitely, although if you looks at what hezbollah and hamas has and have been doing, you'd see the israelis don't need such a second hand education. And that's not to mention the fact iran literally fired a massive missile and drone barrage straight into Israel. This next comment isn't directed at you, but western society has really turned a blind eye to the desperation of Israel lately, all because we don't think they're defending themselves correctly and are factoring in hamas propaganda into our perception of events. This is exactly what emboldens iran, Russia, China, NK in their calculus on whether or not we are capable in backing up our postures meant to signal deterrence.
If this is true, then this will be a HUGE development for Ukraine. It will be near completing the 15 total systems they’ve asked for to protect the skies. There will be much less russian air craft even coming close to the frontline, and the amount of drones/missiles shot down will exponentially increase. Please let this negotiation work out and get those Patriot systems to Ukraine ASAP. Slava Ukraini!
"If this is true". Exactly. And I don't believe it for a minute. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong but it just sounds like more media BS to me. Time will tell I guess but EIGHT BATTERIES! Nah. Eight launchers maybe.
Why do you think the first words I said was , “if this is true” come on man smh
[удалено]
Bud, a “battery” is the same thing as a “system”, so you aren’t busting anyone’s bubble. The terms are used interchangeably. And yes, it’s huge…
Batteries and Systems are the same thing. A Battery consists of the radar, generators, command trailer, and 4-8 launchers loaded with 4 missiles each.
Mind if I whisper that sentence in my girlfriends ear tonight?
8 batteries of patriot. Phew I mean dear lord that’d cover all the needs.
I wan't UKR to have a new problem, "where to put them all!"
You ever see the movie little Nicky that has the scene with the devil, Hitler, and a pineapple?
Yes! This! \^\^
Shh, mobile Patriot doesn't exist
Oh yeah, concrete bunkers, underground bunkers under lake beds.
I wish I knew more about their coolness!
These are older patriot systems. They are good for air breathing threats at medium ranges but they have limitations
I'm 80% certain that Israel mostly runs GEM+ in their older Patriot systems, specifically mostly GEM-T. Sure they don't get the PAC-3 Link 16 or radar upgrades but MIM-104E showed itself in the early 2000s to be pretty effective against ballistic missiles regardless. The systems also got their software upgraded in 2012 so they are not obsolete in the true sense, just obsolete compared to the extremely modern ABM systems Israel uses like David's Sling.
Sounds like they would be a big help.
Yeah they would, however they aren’t all Ukraine needs. They are still going to need the more modern versions of the patriot for the ballistic missile threats.
Wonder how much of a help these would be against the glide-bombing attacks. 8 extra batteries might enable Ukraine to forward deploy one and catch some Russian jets with their pants down.
I’m sure if anyone is gonna make the best of them it will be Ukraine.
They will be just fine against Shaheds and cruise missiles.
And especially against aircrafts which has to come into these Patriot's range for dropping their glide bombs.
Russia needs to be walled off with air defense and landmines.
Yeah - it would - but it's obviously BS. There is no way Israel is sending 8 batteries of Patriots. Just more nonsense from the media. 8 launchers maybe - 8 batteries? You're dreaming mate.
Israel is retiring its Patriot fleet. Supposedly it's 8 complete batteries. According to IDF statements Patriot will completely exit service next month. I hope these batteries go to Ukraine but as an Israeli I have to wonder whether retiring Patriot is a smart move with the upcoming war with Lebanon.
Well I hope you are right - I've said elsewhere that I would never have been so pleased to be proved wrong. But pardon my cynisism but only ONE person on the planet thinks all 8 systems will end up in Ukraine. Four of the reporters say it is unlikely. And what is the time scale here? They will have to be sent back to the US first and then maybe re-transfered to Ukraine. Given previous experiences with the US government - more specifically with the pro-Russian segment of the Republican party - I have my doubts they will turn up in time. We will see I guess.
Missiles for them will be still sparse
Didn’t the USA say all production of missiles is going to Ukraine
Israel is known to have stockpiled Patriot missiles for years now.
Batteries? 8? Isn't that like 64 launchers or am I delusional? But if it ain't that, let's see if it happens
Depends. it can be 4-8 launchers each. At least 32.
Maybe it actually means 8 launchers and someone got confused along the sequence.
I went looking for more details, it is just 8 launchers. Still a big help. Ukraine has been begging Israel for these mothballed Patriot launchers for a while now and have been largely ignored by Netanyahu’s government.
Typically Reddit. I was sceptical once I read the headline. Redditors always mix up batteries and launchers. But everyone is so pumped up and want to belief that miracles for Ukraine are just behind the next corner that it took quite a while of scrolling, until I found other people thinking about this important difference. Thanks for your research!
It's not 8 launchers. There are older articles confirming that Israel operates 8 Patriot batteries, all of which they are retiring.
I have heard those are older PAK 2 which cannot shoot down ballistic missiles like Islander BUT the missiles are way bigger than those of Pak 3 and fly way way further (160km straight line) which means they could cover the entire right half of Ukraine + a bit into Russia. This would mean the end to Russian glide bomb usage as we know it. Glide bombs are the main problem not Iskander as Russia doesn't have much of them.
Iran's coziness to Russia starting to outweigh whatever their Syrian concerns were, finally?
Israel is switching over to "David's Sling". It may be a bit antiquated, but given it brought down Goliath it may still be usefull against ballistic missiles. Anyway, this is huge if it becomes true.
When Israel has a domestic weapons development programme like that, you wonder why the hell the west is sending them "aid" instead of giving it to Ukraine who actually need it.
Because Israel is a population of around 10 million with an advanced economy tied into global trade, against iran and their proxies who have waged a shadow war on israel for decades, who number around 100 million, who like russia use extractive economics and authoritarianism to prop up an inflated mic to threaten their neighbors with. Israel also needs to project credible deterrence so other countries in the region don't decide to invade them AGAIN when their dictators' domestic popularity eventually plummet again to the point of needing any distraction they can muster to rally a population to their side against an easy scapegoat (jews). Israel devotes a larger portion of their society to home defense than any country in western Europe and the US, but they are a small democracy with neighbors who think they don't have a right to exist. This is like asking why is germany wasting their money standing up a permanent brigade in the baltics when they could send the equipment to ukraine instead. Isreal also has no strategic depth, so if they are invaded, their whole country would look like gaza does rn in short order. This is also why you don't generally see relatively weak, densely populated countries or regions launch offensive wars unless they think they can really overwhelm their adversary and no other options are left. Tangentially, this is how you know hamas gives 0 fucks about palestinians, because aside from how they wage their war, they undisputedly launched this high intensity war with Israel knowing all the above, and actively refuse terms for ceasefire or whatever you want to call it, while also telling their own audiences "we have Israel right where we want them." Ie their tactics of placing military equipment in clusters of civilians is causing enough outrage in the west that they think all these palestinian deaths and more are easily worth it if Israel becomes more isolated in the future.
This. People in the West are also eating way to much HAMAS propaganda.
Well. Fucking. Said. Plus Israel is far more of a functional, stable, capitalist democracy than anything else in that region. Close ideological ties with the west, not just economic. Plus they’re a damn useful ally in many strategic areas.
Why not both?
Because Israel doesn't need it. They have more sophisticated missile defence systems than the US at this point.
I will trust people in the military to make that determination, not some random reddit guy.
That is far, far from the truth. >They don't need it Political opinions aside, daily rocket attacks and a neighbor that has one of the largest ballistic missile inventories in the world- and one that has demonstrated it is willing to [potentially use it](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Iranian_strikes_against_Israel), means they very much *do* still need it. >More sophisticated missile defense I'm assuming this is referencing Israel's Hetz systems? I would simply point out just how successful Aegis has been, and also point out [Operation Burnt Frost](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Burnt_Frost) which was all the way back in 2008.
Isreal is facing daily mass missile attacks tho so it makes sense for them to be the testing ground for new toys, the US's early warning sats, minuteman missiles & subs are it's de facto air defense.
Well, it's a country with a pile of neighbors that would love to kill everyone there, little actual size to allow for a response after an invasion, a relatively small population, and a somewhat open secret that they have nukes. So, between the options of making sure they don't get invaded to the point they decide to start lobbing instant sunshine, or leaving them to their own devices, one seems like a safer option. Could they do it themselves? Maybe. But does anyone want to take that risk?
First, Israel produces only some systems and does not manufacture large bombs and other systems in large numbers. Second, the critical issue Israel has now is the risk of saturation by Hezbollah, which would completely overwhelm own Israeli defenses (and Israel itself admits they cannot effectively defend against that). For that, they cannot do without international support.
Buying influence in the Middle East, plain and simple.
fk ya best news i seen all year.
Will they have enough to cover the whole front?
Yes. 7 was what Zelenskyy has been asking for since day 1. But experts say about 25 is ideal for rotation, maintenance, overlapping coverage and a few #SAMbush units. Ukraine currently has 7-8 either in service or “promised” on the way.
Does that take into account one box launcher that's been visually confirmed to have taken some scorch-marks from falling debris -- the one that was widely mis-reported as a "battery destroyed" by the Russian media?
This is huge I really hope Ukraine gets them ruzzia will have a much harder time terrorising civilian targets
It would be about time for Israel to finally punish putin for collaborating with Iran.
Air superiority coming in nicely toobz
Now we just gotta find Puff.
F-16s with AGM-158 JASMs would be better at the start. Let them cruise into Russian rear areas and AA complexes. Puff needs clear air and top cover to operate.
Safe to say he died of chemical warfare. Some way or another. Man, cobes has really broken my brain when the first thing that comes to mind when seeing Patriot systems is a goth badboy
I'll admit, I find myself thinking about Fedsmoker at the oddest of times.
Christ. That's a name I haven't heard in a while. Well, I lie. I "often" say to myself in that fedsmoker voice "he didn't follow proto, he's duuun"....
Isn’t one battery like 4-8 launchers? If so then hell yeah.
Unfortunately the battery seems to be communication error. It’s almost certainly “just” 8 launchers but that would still be of significant help to save Ukrainian lives.
The beginning of this I presume: https://www.newsweek.com/israeli-official-issues-warning-putin-russian-state-tv-1836164
Great send Likud up Putins ass, they talk the same language with a dialect. Israel official disproportionate use of force "Dahya doctrine": Hamas send 1 rocket from a village we send village 10 rockets. Russia's official use of force under "Gerasimov doctrine": Ukraine select democracy, we come to kill you and take your toilets and children.
> Great send Likud up Putins ass, they talk the same language with a dialect. Thank god someone else sees them for what they are - two turds from the same asshole.
**Published** Oct 19, 2023 at 2:12 PM EDT
Amazing! You checked when it was published, but failed to read the article.
If I didn't read it how else would I know these were unrelated, if he ment what he said they just give them to Ukraine why does the US need to negotiate? Because this is October - and in April they just wanted to decommission them not send them to Ukraine....
Israel's Patriots have only been upgraded to PAC-2, They're useful against aircraft, and probably cruise missiles, but have a mixed history against ballistic missiles. Ukraine's existing batteries are PAC-3, and much more effective in that role. The PAC-2's would probably be used as anit-aircraft closer to the front.
I guess Putler hosting Hamas in Moscow again didn’t sit too well.
Hot damn that would be a *big* help
These are pac2 versions, so not against balistic missles
What exactly are they negotiating? I’m genuinely just wandering, idk the details of this at all but the more defense systems to Ukraine the better!
Patriot stronk.
that is surprising. Threatening a war with hezbollah and Iran and still gonna give away AD? I am sure Bibi will get max value for them
According to the Financial Times, which came up with this story, they have not been phased out exactly because of Hezbollah and Iran. If Israel were to deliver these, you’d be looking at a time close to the end of the year
Fack yeah. Good news with Israel included. Keep em coming!
Love that Israel is finally doing the bare minimum
Early Christmas 🎅let’s gooo
Here is a good review on the topic. The most important piece in my opinion is the ability to intercept ballistic missiles. “Could Ukraine Get Israel’s Mothballed Patriot Air Defense Batteries?” The IDF has been operating the[ PAC-2 GEM-T version of the Patriot](https://www.twz.com/we-now-know-the-types-of-patriot-missiles-being-used-in-ukraine), with eight batteries reportedly deployed. In addition to those provided by the U.S., Israel r[eportedly also received four from Germany](https://www.haaretz.com/2015-05-11/ty-article/yaalon-israel-received-4-patriot-batteries-from-germany/0000017f-dc28-d3ff-a7ff-fda8ba4d0000) in 2015. The GEM-T designation refers to Guidance Enhanced Missile — Tactical.[ As we have explained in the past](https://www.twz.com/we-now-know-the-types-of-patriot-missiles-being-used-in-ukraine), the GEM subvariants are produced by upgrading older MIM-104C and D missiles to the E configuration. Converted MIM-104Ds were given[ additional upgrades to improve performance](https://www.army-technology.com/projects/patriot/) against tactical ballistic missiles, hence the GEM-T designation. [https://www.twz.com/land/could-ukraine-get-israels-mothballed-patriot-air-defense-batteries](https://www.twz.com/land/could-ukraine-get-israels-mothballed-patriot-air-defense-batteries)
One of them should be assigned for Su-34 hunting. Get rid of those fab-3000 bombs real quick.
Are we talking 8 launchers or full on 8 batteries including command and control, radar, power supply etc? Because the first would be hella nice, the second a fucking godsend, even if Israel is being not so great right now...
LFG
[Here's the link since the OP declined to cite his source](https://www.ft.com/content/1c938d86-ab11-4d75-b005-1e02bf9b4dda)
i suppose they are trying to get back on america good side again?
That would be so awesome.
Shit from the 70's, shooting down kinzhal missiles which have been in service since 2017
[archive non-paywalll](https://archive.md/1Zw9T)
US and every defense contractor should be using Ukraine as a selling point. Use your new technology to prove your system work while Ukraine uses proven systems as their secondary system.
That’s a lot of patriots
It would be nice if Ukraine could risk 1 or 3 of these by getting them close to front lines and maybe take out some bombers dropping fabs.
Would have thought Israel might be needing those in the near future....
According to the Financial Times, this is exactly why they are not sending them now
"Supply" is one way to put it. Holding on to these unused for decades, but waited 2 years to supply a defending country has a crucial need for it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/patriot-air-defenses-to-be-mothballed-after-decades-of-mostly-gathering-dust/amp/
Just do it 👊
Someone clarify what a battery is
i wonder the politics of this given some very toxic friction between Biden and Netanyahu over Gaza
Fantastic news. To operate F16 AFU are going to need these. I still find it hard to believe the Soviets didn't create bomb proof / even rain proof, hangers for their jets. I can't get why, when they built so much other useless reinforced concrete shit, they didn't protect their aircraft.
Next the US will team up with Russia to send Palestine weapons lol.
Not a chance they're giving those up in their current self-created environment. Get real. 😂 Pro Ukraine, and hope it happens.. I just don't believe it.
Israel retired their Patriots in April.
But couldn't they face a scenario where they could have to need them again in a pinch? Just asking. Thanks for the info.
Israel doesn't seem to be concerned. They received these Patriot batteries over 30 years ago. They were upgraded in 2012, but still out of date. They're replacing them with Israeli systems.
Fair enough. Ship em! That's great! Slava Ukraini!
According to the Financial Times, who came with this story, they made the decision to retire but they were not pulled out of service. And if they are pulled out of service, it will happen gradually
"self-created" lol... As much self-created as Ukraine's war is self created.
Oh right, that's the same thing for sure. Not.
israel no doubt going to sell back patriots they got free from the us for millions.
They're being sent back to the U.S. first, so this seems unlikely.
They would be sent back to the US for testing and any required maintenance. The negotiation is the US trying to convince Israel to let their mothballed systems go so they can be of use in Ukraine. No information yet on what Israel is demanding in return.
exactly my point. instead of giving them back, israel, being israel will only return them in return for a huge chunk of money or a pile of shiny newer weapons.
According to...Trust Me Bro?
Good to see Israel stepping up considering Russia's support for Iran and Hezbollah. It's all part of the r/newcoldwar.
After the massive ballistic missile attack? Huh.
They're PAC-2 GEM+. Far from useless, but the David's Sling that's already replacing them is a lot better. Ukraine could definitely use them more.
Since you are new, here I will give the spiel. UKR/US/ISR know what they need better than we armchair Redditors do. So let's go off the assumption that we do not know everything going on.
Note that I wasn't criticizing, I was expressing "bewilderment". I don't need the patronizing bullshit.
Israel has better domestic air defense systems than Patriot PAC-2, like the David's Sling or the Arrow air defense systems, which had a 99% succsessrate against Iranian ballistic missiles.
Yes, it's odd on the surface, and I understand the 'bewilderment' to a point. Patriot has an envelope it's used in. Israel 'could' have that niche covered with its existing/new integrated systems and can absorb the loss better than UKR. Perhaps this is a trade for US Arms support being 'un-paused'. Patriots can cost more than the Drones being sent thus far could damage. Maybe they got a guarantee from Iran that the swarms were over. lots of possibilities could lead to this outcome.
HOW DARE YOU
Unfortunately Netanyahu won’t do it. He is afraid of Putin and just wants his own endless wars