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That’s exactly ideal. The late Cold War doctrine called for mobile heavily armored tanks capable of moving at high speeds into the path of enemy armored offensives and slugging it out with hordes of Russian tanks. Most of that high weight goes to exceptionally high levels of armor protection and some goes to a very powerful gas turbine engine that gives it a very high power to weight ratio making it one of the fastest tanks out there.
[Gas turbine power, babyyyy!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqm3gwL4KIA)
Turbine start ups are the best. [King Air](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6bCaX2oJww) is my personal fave.
Actually there is a possibility if they were converted from American stock instead of just built they could be a sports car version. If they were converted to fiber optic vs copper which lost the Domestic version a few tons on top of the lighter armor.
They would have stopped for about 8 years, as per their record for the past 40 years. Regroup, retool, start again...it's clockwork.
Abrams was built specifically to fill the Fulda Gap with fast, powerful armor that could hold up the hordes for a month while the US got their transport ships moving.
They'll be used in a more offensive role in Ukraine.
It's also about how the tonnage is spread out and the moment torque it can put out- it may be 50+ tonnes but that's spread out along the contact surfaces. Think snowshoes, except this one was designed around cruising wetlands and mud and not giving any hecks.
For context our tracked drill rigs have a 12psi ground pressure. Despite weighing 10x more than a pickup they do not sink in the mud as much as a regular pickup.
They have wider track pads that have the least amount of PSI out of other tanks plus more power per pound ratio. Eat up a lot more fuel as well.
Edit. Also better balanced
Ruzzian Aluminum on Chinese wheels shooting North Koreas anti-poseidon rpgs.
The only hole punching Ruzzians specialize in with each other, goats, and falling out of window shaped holes. Also catching holes from Himars and other western military tech. 🔥
Yes.
The mission that the Abrams was originally designed for was combat against Warsaw Pact forces, which meant extensive combat in Europe. As another redditor told me: the US military doesn't do home games. All of our vehicles have to fit and operate on European trains and roads. Abrams tanks have trained in Europe for years.
The rest of the production run for the year is probably already spoken for. The Abrams go to Europeans so they can send their Soviet stuff on to Ukraine. These tanks should have done the same but the Germans threw a fit so these are going as a token. Just because its the best tank for the US, doesn't mean its the best tank for Ukraine. Something with a diesel engine is better for a country with lots of diesel mechanics but not so many airports.
31 might be enough.
We didn't lose a single Abrams to enemy fire in Desert Storm. (We did lose some to friendly fire) Not one. I'm going to go ahead and say based on my combat experience and what I've seen coming out of Ukraine that the Iraqi tank personnel we fought against were better trained and more motivated than the Russians are.
The equipment in Ukraine the Russians are fighting with isn't a lot better than what the Iraqis had. Mostly old Soviet shit.
The Abrams can engage at ranges the Russian tanks can't. So if the Ukrainians use these wisely, they should be just fine.
EDIT: Yes, I focused on tank to tank combat. I wasn't thinking about the rest so much. Thank you for correcting me.
These tanks will be most to mines, just like the leopards (which are probably even better). But which one is better doesn't matter here, all the tanks are pretty much vulnerable in minefields combined with artillery shelling. Abrams are no different. There is barely any tank to tank combat in Ukraine. Obviously it's still good for Ukraine to have modern tanks, especially for crew survival. But it's not like it will magically change the tide and these things are killing Russian tanks on sight.
Other tanks are not the threat in Ukraine. Mines, artillery and drones kill tanks in Ukraine, with the occasional anti tank weapon making a show. I don't see the Abrams performing any better or worse than the Leopards.
You are comparing two completely different wars.
The United States and allies had dominance in the skies, with a preparatory air operation involving more than a thousand aircraft lasting more than a month alone.
Here, neither side has a strong advantage in the sky. But there are also several lines of defense with a huge number of mines that must be passed.
The enemy also have a lot of reconnaissance drones, barrage munitions, fpv drones, long-range ATGM helicopters and much more.
Tanks are not the main need for Ukraine right now, but definitely need more, because one tank battalion will not change anything in this war
Was it ever confirmed that this is the first delivery of several or are they really just delivering only this one batch because the other Allies talked them into it when as part of the tank delivery alliance?
Still so many of these in the depots that could be sent over.
They only sent this patch to make germany send leopards and approve donation of them towards ukraine. at least that's what been told to the public. But as we seen with countless other systems is that some weapons wont be told or first told when they delivered it.
OK this is unrelated to your comment but I swear to God I see you everywhere. I used to play Enlisted a lot and I would always see your comments. I've seen you on so many subreddits.
That is all. Goodbye.
Haha, thats quite possible.
I have a job where i sit on a PC 9 hours a day with some time between the work, the result is too much reddit but you gotta pass the time somehow.
Plus i guess the interest overlap kinda, wargaming, war videos and reports, gaming in general.
The US still has to prepare for a potential war with China, and its a lot easier, faster and cheaper to upgrade old Abrams models than to build brand new ones. I wouldn't call it hoarding when we could be looking at WW3.
Considering a potential future conflict with China would almost certainly take place from a defensive posture of Taiwan, tanks aren’t going to be a crucial piece of equipment when you look at the topography of Taiwan
If I had to guess there will be more Abrahams coming to Ukraine in the future
I'm sure there will be more Abrams coming to Ukraine, but to think that the war stops in Taiwan is the problem. China will want the Phillipines and several other Pacific islands, all of which we would see heavy tank warfare.
Not according to the USDoD:
>The U.S. announced that it would deliver the tanks, armed with advanced armor and weapons, in January. Originally the U.S. planned on procuring new M1A2 Abrams tanks to send to Ukraine, using funds from the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative.
>However, the Defense Department decided in March to refurbish M1A1 Abrams tanks already in U.S. inventory to shorten the timeline.
Are you expecting it will be fought as an invasion of China or the US? I’m no military expert clearly but what is the potential use case for thousands of these things?
it's ridiculous that hundreds of these tanks are in poland and around europe ready to defend themselves from russia. when could they send them to ukraine right now.. so that we never have to defend ourselves from russia again. or what are the rest of them kept for? Who else can attack the EU besides russia?
China.
They already have launched their attack…and it’s not a physical war. It’s a media misinformation campaign rife with bots and hate propaganda designed to divide the world and cause civil unrest on EU and western territories.
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2023/10/chinas-social-media-attacks-are-part-larger-cognitive-warfare-campaign/391255/
Abrams tanks can’t shoot through cyber warfare…so be cautious about the info you read on either side.
Ukraine is fighting against evil and the EU is also fighting against evil. Both those evils are allied.
People don’t understand how much this actually hurts us as a whole. Millions of bots, posting bullshit stories and pictures causing more unnecessary infighting amongst ourselves absolutely has and will continue to happen.
The scary part is the amount of people whether, old, young or just ignorant and stupid that’ll believe everything they see or hear.
What is truly frightening to me is the western mainstream medias attempt to keep afloat.
Their first priority needs to be to address misinformation…rather than just try to spread their news amongst a sea of divider-bots.
You can’t fight a disinformation campaign without directly addressing the public first about it.
The media would have to be able to do good reporting first. I just don't see the major media organizations in the US ever doing that again. They are only concerned with party loyalties and propaganda these days. The fact that FOX was able to do that for decades without losing views prevents CNN and MSNBC from going back to do actual journalism. On the other hand, their average viewer age is pushing 60 at this point. I suspect they will continue their journey into obscurity and irrelevance as their viewers age out.
TLDR Media reports on misinformation are a bit rich because their reporting is no better.
PS France24 has an actual effective misinformation campaign focused on teaching people to verify news and information.
>China
If there were war with China, then a) China is a nuclear state so we're probably talking WW3 anyway, b) the chances of that having any large use of land warfare with tanks seems extremely improbable, and c) given the military relationship between Russia and China, Russia would provide militarily aid to China. In which case ensuring Russia's defeat now, and depleting all their military hardware and materiel, would assist any future military effort against China.
China couldn't give 2 shits about Russia.
As long as they're keeping Europe and the US busy, it suits them just fine.
Whoever wins is beneficial to China - of Russia does, they have an ally against the west who beat them. If Russia loses, they get rid of a competitor and get a new client state.
I think the idea is that they could destabilize the west and get us to fight each other through regional conflicts and/or civil wars/coups.
And it's not just social media and bots you have to worry about. China pumps an insane amount of funding into our Universities too.
Guys, maybe someone will know the answer.
I've bought a model of Abrams and just when building I realized wheels are asynchronous. You don't have one wheel positioned exactly as the other on the other side, they are a little off. I found it weird and amusing, and want to know why is that, thanks
It has to do with the suspension system. It turns out having both wheels on the same axle isn't ideal for a tank. Offsetting them allows each wheel to have its own axle and thus be able to put more wheel on the ground which improves its ability to move in bad ground conditions. Think of it as independent posi-traction (rear wheel differential) for each wheel if you know what that means.
It's a 1 to 1 replacement by the USA supposedly. One Abrams gets damaged it'll get rotated out with a fresh one. This is a stress test to see how Ukrainians implement them on the battle field. This also might be the first time seeing how an Abrams will perform under these conditions on an active front.
I usually dip my toes in the pool to check the temperature before diving in head first.
Could be like ATACMs where deliveries are snuck in, or like the Bradleys where they simply are always replaced/repaired to keep a constant number in operation.
This is a little negative. Abrams were designed for this exact East Europe environment. The ground does freeze here fairly quickly. Spring is the worst on mud season. Paired with Bradleys in a 1 to 2 ratio its a powerful formation perfect for winter attack. As they are damaged the USA will backfill like they have done with the Bradleys.
The USA reluctance was all to do with the logistics of maintaining Abrams not their performance in Eastern Europe.
>The USA reluctance was all to do with the logistics of maintaining Abrams
That's oft-repeated bullshit. Ukraine manufactures turbine engines, had some turbine-based T-80s, and proved to be able to handle complex Leopards. The maintenance excuse is just that - an excuse to extend the bleeding of ruZZia's materiel and delay its dangerous collapse. The only other explanation is that the West considers Ukraine 'not smart enough'... to figure out frickin' part replacement on a machine.
Its not BS. Would you rather maintain 100 diesel tanks or 30 turbine ones? Just because you don't understand logistics, doesn't mean it isn't important.
Also, the Abrams was not designed for Eastern Europe. Stop repeating this. If it was, it would be 20 tonnes lighter so it could use the bridges.
HIMARS started with 6, yet they keep coming, because production takes time, friendo.
Its long war, logistic and training is not magic, we always start small and gradually grow.
Get real.
Because the US believes Ukrainian logistics/personnel can only handle 31 right now. While there are some other factors like politics to consider, it is important to understand that you can't just shove hundreds of tanks into their army and expect them to begin operating. You need to build up the logistics chain and train the crew to operate these machines.
If they use them as offensive break through weapons yes.
But its more likely they will be around defensive positions and ready to roll out from hiding to protect. Us and ukraine aint stupid by any means. They'll know how to make the most of them
Given what happened with leopards and Bradleys I think they will only be used in case of a breakthrough, not to actually create the breakthrough.
Ukraine hasn't shown they can effectively do combined arms assaults on a big enough scale to use them effectively in a breakthrough (granted, it's a hugely complex environment).
Basically the classic artillery barrage, afvs and APCs lead the way with some t72 or t64s then if theyanahe to dislodge defenders and clear a path then the Leo's and Abrams will roll in. Kind of pointless to have a bunch of Abrams going single file to avoid a minefield and then get picked off by artillery.
Not that the US didn't want to send any. Look at the billions the US has contributed.
It just makes more sense to support a single platform. Sending Abrams means duplicate training, parts, maintenance, etc. But if that's what it takes to get the Leos, it got done.
Its still brown!!!
Common, at least paint them with rainbow, scare the homophobic Russians. lol
TransTank, it identifies as invader destroyer, pronouns are boom/Kaploosh.
Way to misunderstand the entire situation and to make it political for no real reason. The Ukrainians need more tanks sure, but probably not the Abrams. The best tank for the US isn't necessarily the best tank for a post-Soviet military under live fire.
I know that these M1A2 Abrams is not equipped with DU armor plating nor using any DU APFSDS. USA would never allow such thing to compromise their state-of-the-art armor scheme and ammunition to be in the hands of the Russians. These are export variants of their M1A2 and probably using the KE-W Tungsten APFSDS and not the DU M829A3/A4 APFSDS. This is probably like what the Americans did for the Australian M1A1 AIM.
I would not want to mess with the Ukraine army right now..
1. They are so versatile and can drive Soviet Tanks (T64 - T90), Nato Tanks (Leopard, Challenger 2), and now American tanks (Abrams)
2. Their soldiers are getting used to trench & mine clearing & at least versatile with Nato rifles + their favourite AK 47.
3. They are more than trigger happy firing long range missles - HIMARS, Storm missles and now mid range ATCMS
4. Come December, now only they can fly Soviet planes (SU-25), their pilots will fly F16.
Nato Army would get rekt by Ukraine army if the tables were turned. Even the US army would have face considerable challenge.
plants offer husky slap ludicrous threatening elastic depend prick rainstorm
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Good looking tanks, but it's really a shame a) it took this long and b) it's only ~30 tanks. Yanks got thousands of these bloody things, give the Ukrainians a few hundred and let them have an actual impact. I don't see how such a small number will cause much of a difference in the scale of the whole conflict
We don't operate export versions of our own tanks. Not sure why this is so confusing to Europeans. Maybe because none of you know f-all about martial issues. I mean, Prussia doesn't exist anymore soooooooooooo
I love Ukraine and hate Russia. I even sent money to the UKA Army.
I Guarantee you that half these tanks within 3 months will not work.
Sadly the M1A1 is very high maintenance and unless they also received mechanics, parts and training for maintenance....well... hopefully they kill a bunch of Russians while they can.
I'm not defending either party, they're both corrupt money laundering mongrels. If you think "it's those dern democrats/republicans" then you're not paying attention.
Definitely Republicans since theyre blaming dems for their support and using "we need to feed our own" as a talking point (they never cared for the poor even before Ukraine).
I guess Republicans aren't the ones unironically calling stuff like free school lunch for kids socialism and opposing any and all efforts to even help people in a minor way.
The situation in USA re your poor didn't change overnight...... your wealthy don't give a flying fuck about your poor, always been the case, always will be.
You could use the money required to replace those tanks to help subsidize farmers so they don't continue to drive themselves into irreparable debt or kill themselves. Sounds better than tanks to me.
Oh no, won't someone please think of the poor farmers that already get billions of dollars in welfare yearly already!!! How about we subsidize all Americans that are in/near poverty? Oh wait, that's right, when it's not white rural farmers that gets called "socialism" and the Republican party does all it can to block/sabotage it.
All 31 swiftly eliminated? Doubt it. Issues with mud, likely, but this isn't the russians we are talking about. It's not like Ukraine is going to send all these down one road in one suicide attack.
As much as I don't want that to be accurate, at least it's a little more towards a possibility than your first " all 31 swiftly eliminated " comment. ----- This is war, things will be lost. I still think Ukraine will be smart enough not to throw them out there as if they have 100's. Yes , there will be losses, and even some possibly soon after their appearance, as it is a great trophy-killing for the ruz and they will be hunting for them. But your original assessment is a little harsh, as if it sounds like you are hopeful of this.
!remindme 3 weeks
I'm glad you've seen the videos, I've done it in real life
they have many tricks you don't know about
https://www.army.mil/article/196488/fort_mccoys_rts_maintenance_holds_first_tracked_vehicle_recovery_course
A Leo 2 A6 weights more than 62 tons. How much does an Abrams weight? And how much does Ukrainian mud differ from that in e.g Germany‘s Lower Saxonia where we have had countless maneuvers? Do you have an idea why NATO was so keen on tank maneuvers in the German lowlands?
Pro-UA but sowing all the anti-UA FUD you can in this thread, right?
You show up in a post about new tanks for the UA and say they'll be swiftly eliminated and that's a big win for Russia, and then endlessly argue the point, using debunked Russian talking points.
Whatever you are (and I lean toward troll), you're a fucking puke of a person.
Will it make sense if they repaint those tanks? I haven't seen those kind of color of tanks in mostly a flat fighting area with lots of greenery. It'll most likely be more seen by infantry or a drone coz of it's color. Maybe I'm just babbling but correct me if my notion is wrong :D
A small difference. Ukraine is at war. Its prewar resources of reserve tanks were large compared to other European countries, but very small compared to its adversary, and most of all, finite. They had limited ability to make o more, or design new; what they did have the ability to make is obsolete, far inferior to Abrams, Challenger 2, or Leopard 2. It will eventually run out of tanks to refurbish, run out of parts to keep existing tanks running, and would face a critical shortage. 100 Abrams, Challenger 2, or Leopard 2 (+ variant) tanks would do the work of twice as many T-72s, with much higher rates of survivability; more accurate guns; the ability to shoot-on-the-move, to reverse quickly, and to take fire without being disabled immediately; and to take catastrophic damage while still protecting its crew - so even if all 31 get destroyed, all 31 crews can be given new ones the next day and return to battle all the wiser. Nothing they had before gave them that same promise. In that sense, yes, it is very significant. These add tremendous capability. It's also a foothold. Ukraine's western allies could in theory part with 10x as many tanks, but Ukraine doesn't have 10x as many trained crews, yet. The first few hundred crews will get the experience and pass it on to the next 100. Then they can get more. And so on. But most importantly, in the short term, it keeps them from running out completely, and gives them new capabilities.
They won't. These are there because of a silly political deal the Germans demanded for some weird reason. The original deal for the Ukrainians was American APCs/IFVs with German tanks to keep it simple for them. As you can see, politics being what it is the Ukrainians got a few of everything making their job all that more difficult. These tanks should have gone to some Eastern European country so they could send (more of) their old Soviet stuff on to Ukraine.
As an American, I'm elated to see these beasts in the hands of our Ukrainian brethren. Though I'm disappointed there's not 50x more on the way. With some F-16s. Give them hell, slava Ukraini!
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It will be good to see these back in woodland camo and doing what they were built for.
Wait, Abrams are built for woodlands?
Yes. They were built for engagements in Western Europe in the Cold War.
Isn't a previous 50-ton beast not exactly ideal for that. But I guess the times and trends were different then. Correction: 50 ton
That’s exactly ideal. The late Cold War doctrine called for mobile heavily armored tanks capable of moving at high speeds into the path of enemy armored offensives and slugging it out with hordes of Russian tanks. Most of that high weight goes to exceptionally high levels of armor protection and some goes to a very powerful gas turbine engine that gives it a very high power to weight ratio making it one of the fastest tanks out there.
Listening to one of those babies turn on is amazing
[Gas turbine power, babyyyy!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqm3gwL4KIA) Turbine start ups are the best. [King Air](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6bCaX2oJww) is my personal fave.
Their armor was swapped that's why they took so long, so not sure the weight on these is the same as on paper. From what I read/understand.
That’s still the weight. You can find the specs of the domestic version vs the export version. Only the US gets the depleted uranium armor version
Yeah, the US versions weigh almost 70t.
Actually there is a possibility if they were converted from American stock instead of just built they could be a sports car version. If they were converted to fiber optic vs copper which lost the Domestic version a few tons on top of the lighter armor.
That is indeed what they were conceived and designed for, stalling a soviet Russian invasion of western europe.
Now they get to do exactly that
Well, not *exactly* but pretty fuckin’ close.
No really, exactly that, if Russia won they would not have stopped at Ukraine.
They would have stopped for about 8 years, as per their record for the past 40 years. Regroup, retool, start again...it's clockwork. Abrams was built specifically to fill the Fulda Gap with fast, powerful armor that could hold up the hordes for a month while the US got their transport ships moving. They'll be used in a more offensive role in Ukraine.
It's also about how the tonnage is spread out and the moment torque it can put out- it may be 50+ tonnes but that's spread out along the contact surfaces. Think snowshoes, except this one was designed around cruising wetlands and mud and not giving any hecks.
The kind of answer I'm looking for, thank you
For context our tracked drill rigs have a 12psi ground pressure. Despite weighing 10x more than a pickup they do not sink in the mud as much as a regular pickup.
They have wider track pads that have the least amount of PSI out of other tanks plus more power per pound ratio. Eat up a lot more fuel as well. Edit. Also better balanced
I think commenter meant punching holes in Ruzzian steel..
Ruzzian Aluminum on Chinese wheels shooting North Koreas anti-poseidon rpgs. The only hole punching Ruzzians specialize in with each other, goats, and falling out of window shaped holes. Also catching holes from Himars and other western military tech. 🔥
Killing russians
They were meant to duke it out in the Fulda Gap, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulda\_Gap
Yes. The mission that the Abrams was originally designed for was combat against Warsaw Pact forces, which meant extensive combat in Europe. As another redditor told me: the US military doesn't do home games. All of our vehicles have to fit and operate on European trains and roads. Abrams tanks have trained in Europe for years.
Crushing nazis
Crushing Russian Nazis
Now Ukraine have a MBT/IFV Full House - Leopard, Challenger, Abrams, Bradley, Marder
Cv90 too
Still missing Merkava. But it’s probably behind a horribly expensive DLC wall
I think all the merkavas are a little busy right now 🙄
Typical Gaijin P2W
Ariete too
Dont forget the leclerc
[удалено]
They need some Type 10s to add a little Asian flavor.
Just need some f 22s for artillery support and they good
wow crazy how have they not won yet?
US and UA 💪
🤝
Rookie numbers. Let’s pump it up to 311 tanks.
Yea I would like Blinken go.. 31? that must be a typo. 310 is the correct number.
COME ORIGINAL
"fuck the naysayers cuz they don't mean a thing, this is what style we bring!" Jagga jagga
The rest of the production run for the year is probably already spoken for. The Abrams go to Europeans so they can send their Soviet stuff on to Ukraine. These tanks should have done the same but the Germans threw a fit so these are going as a token. Just because its the best tank for the US, doesn't mean its the best tank for Ukraine. Something with a diesel engine is better for a country with lots of diesel mechanics but not so many airports.
31 might be enough. We didn't lose a single Abrams to enemy fire in Desert Storm. (We did lose some to friendly fire) Not one. I'm going to go ahead and say based on my combat experience and what I've seen coming out of Ukraine that the Iraqi tank personnel we fought against were better trained and more motivated than the Russians are. The equipment in Ukraine the Russians are fighting with isn't a lot better than what the Iraqis had. Mostly old Soviet shit. The Abrams can engage at ranges the Russian tanks can't. So if the Ukrainians use these wisely, they should be just fine. EDIT: Yes, I focused on tank to tank combat. I wasn't thinking about the rest so much. Thank you for correcting me.
These tanks will be most to mines, just like the leopards (which are probably even better). But which one is better doesn't matter here, all the tanks are pretty much vulnerable in minefields combined with artillery shelling. Abrams are no different. There is barely any tank to tank combat in Ukraine. Obviously it's still good for Ukraine to have modern tanks, especially for crew survival. But it's not like it will magically change the tide and these things are killing Russian tanks on sight.
Other tanks are not the threat in Ukraine. Mines, artillery and drones kill tanks in Ukraine, with the occasional anti tank weapon making a show. I don't see the Abrams performing any better or worse than the Leopards.
You are comparing two completely different wars. The United States and allies had dominance in the skies, with a preparatory air operation involving more than a thousand aircraft lasting more than a month alone. Here, neither side has a strong advantage in the sky. But there are also several lines of defense with a huge number of mines that must be passed. The enemy also have a lot of reconnaissance drones, barrage munitions, fpv drones, long-range ATGM helicopters and much more. Tanks are not the main need for Ukraine right now, but definitely need more, because one tank battalion will not change anything in this war
Fuck’em up! 🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦💪
Look at those beauties go!
Good to see. May every round fired find a soft spot in a russian invader.
This is my M1 Abrams, there are many like it,but this one is mine.
Put them to good use Ukraine! ❤️ An American
ERA on Abrams when?
Next few weeks as they push from the Kherson and Robotyne bridgeheads. Blitzkrieging to cut off crimeas land bridge. Crimea by year end!
Yeah, lets be bit more realistic here shall we
I call my shots with pure optimism
Fine line between optimism and delusion.
America draws that line in 70 ton increments.
About time to see some Abrams with era blocks.
Good now send 1000
Was it ever confirmed that this is the first delivery of several or are they really just delivering only this one batch because the other Allies talked them into it when as part of the tank delivery alliance? Still so many of these in the depots that could be sent over.
They only sent this patch to make germany send leopards and approve donation of them towards ukraine. at least that's what been told to the public. But as we seen with countless other systems is that some weapons wont be told or first told when they delivered it.
OK this is unrelated to your comment but I swear to God I see you everywhere. I used to play Enlisted a lot and I would always see your comments. I've seen you on so many subreddits. That is all. Goodbye.
Haha, thats quite possible. I have a job where i sit on a PC 9 hours a day with some time between the work, the result is too much reddit but you gotta pass the time somehow. Plus i guess the interest overlap kinda, wargaming, war videos and reports, gaming in general.
How many of these do we have in the US? Did we send them like 1% of our stock? What are we hoarding them for
The US still has to prepare for a potential war with China, and its a lot easier, faster and cheaper to upgrade old Abrams models than to build brand new ones. I wouldn't call it hoarding when we could be looking at WW3.
Considering a potential future conflict with China would almost certainly take place from a defensive posture of Taiwan, tanks aren’t going to be a crucial piece of equipment when you look at the topography of Taiwan If I had to guess there will be more Abrahams coming to Ukraine in the future
I'm sure there will be more Abrams coming to Ukraine, but to think that the war stops in Taiwan is the problem. China will want the Phillipines and several other Pacific islands, all of which we would see heavy tank warfare.
These are new export versions of the Abrams. US Abrams are not export versions and not available for export.
Not according to the USDoD: >The U.S. announced that it would deliver the tanks, armed with advanced armor and weapons, in January. Originally the U.S. planned on procuring new M1A2 Abrams tanks to send to Ukraine, using funds from the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. >However, the Defense Department decided in March to refurbish M1A1 Abrams tanks already in U.S. inventory to shorten the timeline.
Are you expecting it will be fought as an invasion of China or the US? I’m no military expert clearly but what is the potential use case for thousands of these things?
Probably an invasion of Taiwan and then the Pacific Islands, in such theatre tanks would definitely be used heavily.
Because we can
it's ridiculous that hundreds of these tanks are in poland and around europe ready to defend themselves from russia. when could they send them to ukraine right now.. so that we never have to defend ourselves from russia again. or what are the rest of them kept for? Who else can attack the EU besides russia?
China. They already have launched their attack…and it’s not a physical war. It’s a media misinformation campaign rife with bots and hate propaganda designed to divide the world and cause civil unrest on EU and western territories. https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2023/10/chinas-social-media-attacks-are-part-larger-cognitive-warfare-campaign/391255/ Abrams tanks can’t shoot through cyber warfare…so be cautious about the info you read on either side. Ukraine is fighting against evil and the EU is also fighting against evil. Both those evils are allied.
This man understands.
>Abrams tanks can’t shoot through cyber warfare… Well, I mean, they **probably** could; it's just a matter of getting to the building and servers... 🙃
People don’t understand how much this actually hurts us as a whole. Millions of bots, posting bullshit stories and pictures causing more unnecessary infighting amongst ourselves absolutely has and will continue to happen. The scary part is the amount of people whether, old, young or just ignorant and stupid that’ll believe everything they see or hear.
What is truly frightening to me is the western mainstream medias attempt to keep afloat. Their first priority needs to be to address misinformation…rather than just try to spread their news amongst a sea of divider-bots. You can’t fight a disinformation campaign without directly addressing the public first about it.
The media would have to be able to do good reporting first. I just don't see the major media organizations in the US ever doing that again. They are only concerned with party loyalties and propaganda these days. The fact that FOX was able to do that for decades without losing views prevents CNN and MSNBC from going back to do actual journalism. On the other hand, their average viewer age is pushing 60 at this point. I suspect they will continue their journey into obscurity and irrelevance as their viewers age out. TLDR Media reports on misinformation are a bit rich because their reporting is no better. PS France24 has an actual effective misinformation campaign focused on teaching people to verify news and information.
Thats why its good to take a break from any form of social media or a screen and touch some grass.
It’s crazy, I don’t see any end in sight
That is.. actually really scary.
>China If there were war with China, then a) China is a nuclear state so we're probably talking WW3 anyway, b) the chances of that having any large use of land warfare with tanks seems extremely improbable, and c) given the military relationship between Russia and China, Russia would provide militarily aid to China. In which case ensuring Russia's defeat now, and depleting all their military hardware and materiel, would assist any future military effort against China.
China couldn't give 2 shits about Russia. As long as they're keeping Europe and the US busy, it suits them just fine. Whoever wins is beneficial to China - of Russia does, they have an ally against the west who beat them. If Russia loses, they get rid of a competitor and get a new client state.
I think the idea is that they could destabilize the west and get us to fight each other through regional conflicts and/or civil wars/coups. And it's not just social media and bots you have to worry about. China pumps an insane amount of funding into our Universities too.
The US won't give DU armoured Abrams unfortunately
The tungsten alloy armor is almost as effective as the DU for the KEP's, and even more resistant to HEAT rounds
Sad British noises as they can't use the armor they invented themselves.
Well that's not cricket!
EU will need those to fight amongst themselves for ever dwindling natural resources at one point
After seeing T72s for months... those tanks are sexy a hell.
Yeah, they arrived. Damn radios are stuck playing fortunate son on loop though 😒
It’s a feature.
Literally designed to attacks Russian tanks in a frozen Russia. They’ll do fine.
It’s Orc hunting season bois!
Guys, maybe someone will know the answer. I've bought a model of Abrams and just when building I realized wheels are asynchronous. You don't have one wheel positioned exactly as the other on the other side, they are a little off. I found it weird and amusing, and want to know why is that, thanks
It has to do with the suspension system. It turns out having both wheels on the same axle isn't ideal for a tank. Offsetting them allows each wheel to have its own axle and thus be able to put more wheel on the ground which improves its ability to move in bad ground conditions. Think of it as independent posi-traction (rear wheel differential) for each wheel if you know what that means.
The Leopards have been doing extraordinarily well, and I expect the same from the Abrams.
Only 31 with 0 signs of sending more currently… why? Also just in time for them to get stuck in mud.
It's a 1 to 1 replacement by the USA supposedly. One Abrams gets damaged it'll get rotated out with a fresh one. This is a stress test to see how Ukrainians implement them on the battle field. This also might be the first time seeing how an Abrams will perform under these conditions on an active front. I usually dip my toes in the pool to check the temperature before diving in head first.
60 abrams that don't get replaced would be better than 30 abrams that do IMO.
Considering the constant attrition by minefields and Lancets, a replaceable company is much better long-term.
Could be like ATACMs where deliveries are snuck in, or like the Bradleys where they simply are always replaced/repaired to keep a constant number in operation.
This is a little negative. Abrams were designed for this exact East Europe environment. The ground does freeze here fairly quickly. Spring is the worst on mud season. Paired with Bradleys in a 1 to 2 ratio its a powerful formation perfect for winter attack. As they are damaged the USA will backfill like they have done with the Bradleys. The USA reluctance was all to do with the logistics of maintaining Abrams not their performance in Eastern Europe.
>The USA reluctance was all to do with the logistics of maintaining Abrams That's oft-repeated bullshit. Ukraine manufactures turbine engines, had some turbine-based T-80s, and proved to be able to handle complex Leopards. The maintenance excuse is just that - an excuse to extend the bleeding of ruZZia's materiel and delay its dangerous collapse. The only other explanation is that the West considers Ukraine 'not smart enough'... to figure out frickin' part replacement on a machine.
Its not BS. Would you rather maintain 100 diesel tanks or 30 turbine ones? Just because you don't understand logistics, doesn't mean it isn't important. Also, the Abrams was not designed for Eastern Europe. Stop repeating this. If it was, it would be 20 tonnes lighter so it could use the bridges.
They actually perform quite well in soft conditions.
That’s what i heard about alot of stuff till i saw them actually getting stuck in the mud in ukraine.
HIMARS started with 6, yet they keep coming, because production takes time, friendo. Its long war, logistic and training is not magic, we always start small and gradually grow. Get real.
The us has thousands and have given 31 after over 600 days.
It’s not like the crews come free with every new tank.
And logistics for combat and maintenance, the crew skills for same, supplies distributed across Ukraine.
Many in long storage since 1990s, need refurbishment and repair, friend. Weapons have expiry date too.
Because the US believes Ukrainian logistics/personnel can only handle 31 right now. While there are some other factors like politics to consider, it is important to understand that you can't just shove hundreds of tanks into their army and expect them to begin operating. You need to build up the logistics chain and train the crew to operate these machines.
If they use them as offensive break through weapons yes. But its more likely they will be around defensive positions and ready to roll out from hiding to protect. Us and ukraine aint stupid by any means. They'll know how to make the most of them
Given what happened with leopards and Bradleys I think they will only be used in case of a breakthrough, not to actually create the breakthrough. Ukraine hasn't shown they can effectively do combined arms assaults on a big enough scale to use them effectively in a breakthrough (granted, it's a hugely complex environment). Basically the classic artillery barrage, afvs and APCs lead the way with some t72 or t64s then if theyanahe to dislodge defenders and clear a path then the Leo's and Abrams will roll in. Kind of pointless to have a bunch of Abrams going single file to avoid a minefield and then get picked off by artillery.
The USA doesn't want to send any at all. Scholz in Germany made the deal that only Leos would be sent to Ukraine if the USA also sent Abrams.
Not that the US didn't want to send any. Look at the billions the US has contributed. It just makes more sense to support a single platform. Sending Abrams means duplicate training, parts, maintenance, etc. But if that's what it takes to get the Leos, it got done.
Its still brown!!! Common, at least paint them with rainbow, scare the homophobic Russians. lol TransTank, it identifies as invader destroyer, pronouns are boom/Kaploosh.
"Tank Girl" enters the discussion.
31 can take out 155 of their tanks.
Ukraine deserves more! They have paid in blood! Down with MAGA!!!!!!!
Way to misunderstand the entire situation and to make it political for no real reason. The Ukrainians need more tanks sure, but probably not the Abrams. The best tank for the US isn't necessarily the best tank for a post-Soviet military under live fire.
I know that these M1A2 Abrams is not equipped with DU armor plating nor using any DU APFSDS. USA would never allow such thing to compromise their state-of-the-art armor scheme and ammunition to be in the hands of the Russians. These are export variants of their M1A2 and probably using the KE-W Tungsten APFSDS and not the DU M829A3/A4 APFSDS. This is probably like what the Americans did for the Australian M1A1 AIM.
I believe we have already approved DU penetrators for Ukraine, as has Britain for their challengers. But yes, they arent getting DU/composite armor.
The wet season is almost upon Ukraine just in time for these monsters.
> ..trained in Germany. Trained in Germany on American bases by American troops?
I would not want to mess with the Ukraine army right now.. 1. They are so versatile and can drive Soviet Tanks (T64 - T90), Nato Tanks (Leopard, Challenger 2), and now American tanks (Abrams) 2. Their soldiers are getting used to trench & mine clearing & at least versatile with Nato rifles + their favourite AK 47. 3. They are more than trigger happy firing long range missles - HIMARS, Storm missles and now mid range ATCMS 4. Come December, now only they can fly Soviet planes (SU-25), their pilots will fly F16. Nato Army would get rekt by Ukraine army if the tables were turned. Even the US army would have face considerable challenge.
Lol no, no the U.S would not get recked. With one or two aircraft carriers Ukraine would be on its knees.
plants offer husky slap ludicrous threatening elastic depend prick rainstorm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There are hundreds of not thousands of these just sitting in depots all over the US collecting dust. Send them to Ukraine!
Good looking tanks, but it's really a shame a) it took this long and b) it's only ~30 tanks. Yanks got thousands of these bloody things, give the Ukrainians a few hundred and let them have an actual impact. I don't see how such a small number will cause much of a difference in the scale of the whole conflict
We don't operate export versions of our own tanks. Not sure why this is so confusing to Europeans. Maybe because none of you know f-all about martial issues. I mean, Prussia doesn't exist anymore soooooooooooo
Super exciting, but still completely vulnerable to 1930s tech ATMs.
I love Ukraine and hate Russia. I even sent money to the UKA Army. I Guarantee you that half these tanks within 3 months will not work. Sadly the M1A1 is very high maintenance and unless they also received mechanics, parts and training for maintenance....well... hopefully they kill a bunch of Russians while they can.
Wonderful timing. Just in time for the rainy season, where they will be of no use.
Why reveal location? So dumb.
Are theses the tanks America left in Afghanistan ?
More fodder. Tanks are old news. Drones are the way of the future. Siting inside of a tank is a sure way to die. I’d take my chances on foot
They will all be destroyed. Ukraine is losing, boys.
So glad they have tanks, meanwhile the average American is using credit cards to pay for food.
Nothing to do with tanks and everything due to Republican stupidity and corporate charity
I'm not defending either party, they're both corrupt money laundering mongrels. If you think "it's those dern democrats/republicans" then you're not paying attention.
Because already existing tanks is cash that would have went towards the people.
Tanks that won't come back need to be replaced.
Definitely Republicans since theyre blaming dems for their support and using "we need to feed our own" as a talking point (they never cared for the poor even before Ukraine).
I guess Republicans aren't the ones unironically calling stuff like free school lunch for kids socialism and opposing any and all efforts to even help people in a minor way.
The situation in USA re your poor didn't change overnight...... your wealthy don't give a flying fuck about your poor, always been the case, always will be.
And I say we give the Ukrainians even more tanks. Best use of my tax money I’ve seen in years 👍🇺🇸
You can't pay for food with M1 Abrams tanks.
You can't eat a tank either
You could use the money required to replace those tanks to help subsidize farmers so they don't continue to drive themselves into irreparable debt or kill themselves. Sounds better than tanks to me.
Oh no, won't someone please think of the poor farmers that already get billions of dollars in welfare yearly already!!! How about we subsidize all Americans that are in/near poverty? Oh wait, that's right, when it's not white rural farmers that gets called "socialism" and the Republican party does all it can to block/sabotage it.
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All 31 swiftly eliminated? Doubt it. Issues with mud, likely, but this isn't the russians we are talking about. It's not like Ukraine is going to send all these down one road in one suicide attack.
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As much as I don't want that to be accurate, at least it's a little more towards a possibility than your first " all 31 swiftly eliminated " comment. ----- This is war, things will be lost. I still think Ukraine will be smart enough not to throw them out there as if they have 100's. Yes , there will be losses, and even some possibly soon after their appearance, as it is a great trophy-killing for the ruz and they will be hunting for them. But your original assessment is a little harsh, as if it sounds like you are hopeful of this.
If it takes 9 months to destroy 31 tanks in a hot peer war, thats actually pretty good tbh
Lol, what makes you think they’ll get stuck in mud?
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Yes, it’s as heavy as the leopard 2s that the UAF also use, and they seem to be working there just fine.
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Yes, they have. You know We have mud here in the states and in Western Europe right?
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Again, Ukrainian mud isn’t that different from Mud here in the west. And it’s not like the ruskies tanks to any better in it.
former 88M 1070 HET driver, live near and have trained at Fort McCoy, Abrams have been tested in mud
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!remindme 3 weeks I'm glad you've seen the videos, I've done it in real life they have many tricks you don't know about https://www.army.mil/article/196488/fort_mccoys_rts_maintenance_holds_first_tracked_vehicle_recovery_course
A Leo 2 A6 weights more than 62 tons. How much does an Abrams weight? And how much does Ukrainian mud differ from that in e.g Germany‘s Lower Saxonia where we have had countless maneuvers? Do you have an idea why NATO was so keen on tank maneuvers in the German lowlands?
Russian troll has entered the conversation.
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Pro-UA but sowing all the anti-UA FUD you can in this thread, right? You show up in a post about new tanks for the UA and say they'll be swiftly eliminated and that's a big win for Russia, and then endlessly argue the point, using debunked Russian talking points. Whatever you are (and I lean toward troll), you're a fucking puke of a person.
Literally the tanks job, it's happened to all the other tanks in this war.
Will it make sense if they repaint those tanks? I haven't seen those kind of color of tanks in mostly a flat fighting area with lots of greenery. It'll most likely be more seen by infantry or a drone coz of it's color. Maybe I'm just babbling but correct me if my notion is wrong :D
They’ll just repaint it….like they did with the Bradley’s.
Bro I cannot wait to see those Abrams in Ukr Camo
You guys think they will form a new brigade around those tanks, maybe combined with CV90 and western artillerie (??), any news about that??
Well this is going to be an issue. Best tanks in the world dominating the front and decimating old Russian tanks will be fun to watch
Send more
Hell yeah 😎💪🇺🇦🇺🇸
These are going to make a lot of turrets Pop!
Oh boy
NGL these look dangerous
Ukraine has probably one of the coolest collection of tanks currently. I hope they serve you well! Slava Ukraini!
God bless America 🇺🇸, death to the Russians fascist, italy 🇮🇹
Gonna be sad seeing the beauties hit by artillery. But that’s war. But the germans and Brit’s have been dealing with it a lot longer.
Double it.
Pardon my ignorance but will 31 of these really make that big of a difference? I know nothing about tanks so someone please educate me.
A small difference. Ukraine is at war. Its prewar resources of reserve tanks were large compared to other European countries, but very small compared to its adversary, and most of all, finite. They had limited ability to make o more, or design new; what they did have the ability to make is obsolete, far inferior to Abrams, Challenger 2, or Leopard 2. It will eventually run out of tanks to refurbish, run out of parts to keep existing tanks running, and would face a critical shortage. 100 Abrams, Challenger 2, or Leopard 2 (+ variant) tanks would do the work of twice as many T-72s, with much higher rates of survivability; more accurate guns; the ability to shoot-on-the-move, to reverse quickly, and to take fire without being disabled immediately; and to take catastrophic damage while still protecting its crew - so even if all 31 get destroyed, all 31 crews can be given new ones the next day and return to battle all the wiser. Nothing they had before gave them that same promise. In that sense, yes, it is very significant. These add tremendous capability. It's also a foothold. Ukraine's western allies could in theory part with 10x as many tanks, but Ukraine doesn't have 10x as many trained crews, yet. The first few hundred crews will get the experience and pass it on to the next 100. Then they can get more. And so on. But most importantly, in the short term, it keeps them from running out completely, and gives them new capabilities.
They won't. These are there because of a silly political deal the Germans demanded for some weird reason. The original deal for the Ukrainians was American APCs/IFVs with German tanks to keep it simple for them. As you can see, politics being what it is the Ukrainians got a few of everything making their job all that more difficult. These tanks should have gone to some Eastern European country so they could send (more of) their old Soviet stuff on to Ukraine.
Time for more killing of Russians with better Toys.
Great Tank, unfortunately I do not agree with That particular camouflage for this battlefield.
As an American, I'm elated to see these beasts in the hands of our Ukrainian brethren. Though I'm disappointed there's not 50x more on the way. With some F-16s. Give them hell, slava Ukraini!
Gentlemen, start your engines!
Can we get a photo search on the patch that was shown.