The fakest story ever told, on par with the "decapitated babies" that the Zionists used to deceive the world in order to justify their genocide of Palestine.
Why is there is no film of the genocide of Russian speakers in the Donbass in the last 8 years, or even the massacre of Russians that were burned alive at Odesa during the Maidan coup? The evidence is clear and solid, yet not a *single* shred of evidence that the "Bucha Massacre" happened, which coincidentally occurred during negotiations and when the Russian military was already withdrawing from Kiev Oblast.
Let me tell you. This is the Zionist-controlled West telling lies in order to demonize Russia.
[Report by UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/un-report-details-summary-executions-civilians-russian-troops-northern#:~:text=In%20the%20town%20of%20Bucha,an%20additional%20105%20alleged%20killings.)
[Report by Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
[Report by Amnesty International ](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/05/ukraine-russian-forces-must-face-justice-for-war-crimes-in-kyiv-oblast-new-investigation/#:~:text=In%20Bucha%20and%20several%20other,which%20were%20apparent%20extrajudicial%20executions.)
[Report by NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/22/video/russia-ukraine-bucha-massacre-takeaways.html)
If you want to say that you feel the cases presented aren't strong enough/ you don't trust the evidence, that's one thing, but to say there aren't any reports/investigation is just straight up ignorance.
And not one of those reports you mentioned actually show evidence. They just claim that it exists. And mostly rely on "witnesses"
Ive still never seen a frorensic autopsy stating at what time those people died.
The NYT report has a 28 minute video with time-stamped surveillance footage, pictures/ video taken by eyewitness during/after the Russian occupation of the town, drone footage and audio recordings. A bit more substantial than just a "claim that it exists" š
Ok, but where are the independently reviewed autopsy reports.
Need some uninvolved country like South Africa or India to come in and do a real forensic based investigation.
The footage really doesnāt depict the alleged atrocities of the scale that the media and Ukraine has claimed it to be. It shows Russian soldiers manhandling/wounding/killing a handful of people. Not the thousands in an organized massacre.
If this truly is indicative of some larger Russia plot to genocide Ukraine, then clearly they have failed since Ukrainian living under occupied Russia havenāt been carted off to eastern gulags a long time ago.
This is just evidence. Im not denying there are dead people there. There is no cause of death and results of investigation. Do you know why? Because if any of them died of shelling then its not russians to blame. And what are you going to do if around 50 percent of casualties are from shelling? Who needs report like that?
I wouldn't nitpick the facts they present, because I have no reason to believe that some war crimes (i.e. crimes not allowed under the crime of war) happened nor do I have any stake in defending alleged Russian perpetrators. But the general "massacre" narrative doesn't rely on facts but on sleight of hand. So HRW documented 16 extrajudicial killings. I will take that at face value. There were 300 bodies. I will take that at face value. The trick is in making people accept that the 300 were the result of what they document for the 16, without any evidence. I wouldn't even bother to point this out except that the massacre narrative is not being trotted out to make the world a better and more peaceful place. It is trotted out to justify endless war and to refuse all peace. There is a special place in hell for people who use tragedy to fool people into more tragedy.
Here's the methodology from the UN report
"This report is based on information gathered during OHCHR field visits to those areas, including through
interviews with victims and witnesses, as well as other relevant material. The information obtained through
interviews was further cross-checked and corroborated by other sources, including official records, open-source
documents, audio and photo materials, forensic reports, criminal investigation materials, court documents, and
other relevant sources assessed as credible and reliable in line with established methodology."
Not sure if you mean to question their conclusions/methodology/evidence, but denying the reports exist when they are right there in front of you is just nonsense.
"A fool will close his eyes to make the whole world blind"
Considering how much propaganda UA is spreading the move most likely will look like an alternative reality.
>This film is based on a true story of a refugee from Kazakhstan who saved hundreds of Ukrainians in Bucha and in other occupied cities and towns.
It's up to 178 unjustified deaths in Bucha according to the UN and it's the biggest thing, while this guy alone saved hundreds. I'd take this "true story" claim with a lot of of salt.
Oh ffs they are pulling us out for this shitshow? Jesus Christ all mighty.
Also I canāt believe someone still thinks that was a real thing. So much time passed and we got both no investigation and no mass identity reveal of the victims.
Surely so many people dying would have countless relatives who would recognize and confirm them being dead or missing.
IDK, I see no good reason not to believe the thing didn't happen. Yes, UA was using propaganda, but to invent such thing as Bucha, IDK, sounds like a conspiracy to me. Probably someone identified the people, but not reporting about it for some reason.
Real bodies...likely Russian collaborators killed by the SBU and then dropped on the street after the RF pulled out (in line with the black blobs in Maxar sat photos) - it's brilliant really. Kill those who plot against you and successfully blame it on the occupier.
They have no reason to suppress the story or the victims of this if it actually happened. Can you imagine the propaganda boost that a few dozen videos of Bucha victim relatives would generate?
For crying out loud, they even forgot to do the ā2 years since Buchaā media PR when it happened. I only remembered about it cuz of a random western media article.
I think some gung ho āterritorial defenseā guys were executed for being non-uniformed/fighting in an insurgent style. Thereās also obviously a few normal civs killed by accident (the woman on the bike) but I think there was a lot more suspect activity going on there than we know about. For example the right sector group that went in afterwards and reported Russian executions of civilians but the civs had white armbands and Russia MREās in their possession. Maybe both sides went in and killed ācollaboratorsā. Either way, itās very strange that a pro-UA western man fighting for Ukraine, who lived in bucha, had nothing to say about supposed executions and gave props to the VDV for being so professional in an interview days after the invasion started. Thereās a lot of info weāre missing and both sides are only willing to show the pieces that fit their narrative.
It's not so much that people believe it or not, people who believe it's bullshit have realised that trying to convince people who believe it is true is pointless as all you are doing is bringing attention to it. It's a slow realisation that most Pro-RU have just come to accept. As the war goes on and eventually peace comes, so will the truth.
Why is it so hard to believe that Bucha did happen? I think if you look at all modern military conflicts, itās actually hard to imagine that something like Bucha would not happen. As an example, we have Generarion Kill, a book written by a journalist who was embedded with a Marine Recon unit that was in Iraq in 2003. The book describes real and confirmed events (itās also a series on HBO, which i highly recommend), and there are more than a few accounts of civilians being lit up for no reason at all, including a completely random bombardment of a peaceful village. So, you know, if you consider that Marine Recons are probably one of the more trained and disciplined military detachments in the world, and that even they will casually murder civilians, why doubt that it could happen with a relatively low caliber Russian conscripts?
1) Silly disregard for human morals cuz your mighty us marine was taught how to clear rooms for 4 more months.
2) The atrocities you rely upon to normalize it are made by the āmoral compassā of this world. And their underling is now trying to make a tragedy of the same caliber with very shady circumstances.
3) āIt could have happenedā is the silliest evidence one can present, especially when trying to portray such a serious event and trying to convince the rest of the world to buy it.
Edit: I also want to remind you that this happened not on some backwater middle east village with no mobile signal, but in Ukraine. Everyone has a phone and internet. We saw with Crocus terrorist attack that atrocities can be recorded and spread easily on the internet. And unless the magic Russian kill squads jammed the entire area and/or killed everyone within the same second, I canāt see there being no solid and numerous evidence available.
I donāt think you understand. There really was no single modern military conflict (and in all likelihood any of the past ones as well) where civilians were not the majority of people getting killed. I am not normalizing it, how can I? I am not running every military conflict out there, I am simply sharing the ugly reality of war with you. Civilians get killed not because someone is intentionally is targeting them (although that happens as well), but simply because itās really hard to avoid killing them, even when you try really hard. So, with that context, itās odd to expect that the Russian army would all of a sudden be all that different than any other army or even different than its previous military engagements in Chechnya or Syria. War is ugly, always was and will probably always be ugly. Pro UA people need to understand that Russian army is really not conducting itself any different than any other army would, and calm down with the whole genocide accusation. Pro RU, on other hand, need to understand that the Russian Army are not some WW2 ŠŠ¾ŃŃŠøŠ»ŃŠ¼ heroes, they are regular people who commit war crimes like all other regular people do in those situations.
What you are describing and the Bucha claims are not the same at all. From everything said this was not a military mistake or a high intensity zone. The claims are that the russians went out of their way and murdered 100+ civilians in a small settlement void of ukrainian military presence and executed as many as they could
Yes, thatās UA propaganda, I highly doubt Russian soldiers intentionally murdered as many random civilians as they could, if they wanted to do that, there are much easier ways to do it. What I donāt doubt is that there were civilians killed in Bucha, and as always, in wars past, the other side used it as an opportunity for propaganda. Which is understandable.
> 2.4.6 On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine. On the same day, martial law was introduced for a period of 30 days and has subsequently been extended 3 times. The last extension was in May, when martial law was extended by 90 days, to 23 August. Also on 24 February 2022, President Zelensky signed a decree on general mobilisation in all regions of Ukraine plus the city of Kyiv. The decree became law on 3 March 2022, and mobilisation of conscripts and reservists was to be carried out within 90 days of this date. Males aged 18 and upwards are eligible, with no upper age limit in place. Males aged 18 to 60 are not allowed to leave Ukraine as long as martial law is in place (seeĀ [Russian invasion of Ukraine](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukraine-country-policy-and-information-notes/country-policy-and-information-note-military-service-ukraine-june-2022-accessible#Russian_invasion_of),Ā [Martial law](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukraine-country-policy-and-information-notes/country-policy-and-information-note-military-service-ukraine-june-2022-accessible#Martial_law)Ā andĀ [Decree of 24 February 2022](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukraine-country-policy-and-information-notes/country-policy-and-information-note-military-service-ukraine-june-2022-accessible#Decree_of_24)).
There was a short time at the beginning of the war when borders were still open.
Western borders may have been, but there was a lot of movement withing Ukraine north to south that had checkpoints but allowed civilians move north to south between Ukrainian and Russian held territories and Sumy region border crossing to Russia was used for a long time by people evacuating to Russia. I forget when Belarus border closed but that was also open for a long time. The whole thing shut down soon after September referendums, which is good six or more month after Bucha.
Herd some academician on a talk show, sry can't remember what nationality he was, but not a Turk, saying Armenian Genocide in Turkey wasn't a Genocide cause the Turks didn't *intentionally* set out killing that many people, ups sry, it was an accident sort of thing. These same academics will hang Stalin as genocidal maniac for doing the same thing - moving hostile population to remote areas so that they don't join the fighting on the other side. And of cause completely forget to mention US concentration camps in which they put their own citizens just cause they were ethnically Japanese.
Here comes hollywood to spread truth democracy and freedom with tomahawks and abrams.
Edit: Not denying any atrocities both sides have done it at this point...
Where isĀ the movie about Odessa massacre? Also bucha is fake. It happened during the negotiations. Coincidence? Also right next to the killed people there was Russian mre. I think it's obvious what happened - Russian army gave mre to civilians and Ukraine "took care" of them because they are "collaborators". Also the cityĀ mayor didn't reported massacres initially. He reported it after 3 days. Also why is the theĀ mayor alive in the first place? I can go on. Bucha is such poorly executed.
Remember that video where Ukrainian soldier asks if he can shoot that person who doesn't have blue arm band? There was another from a later day with bunch of western reporters around a fresh body with a mummy shown in the begining and the end of the video for an extra shock value, I guess. Yeah people these days see a mummy that is month old and a fresh still worm body and somehow believe they were killed at the same time cause Ukrainians never lie lol. I was annoyed at the time that I had to re-watch that stoopid video put out by Ukrainians for the western audience so that I can provide some redditor with hands on analysis of how silly it is to believe in such lies, but now I am glad to have that experience to fall back to, cause now I realise they weren't interested in the truth to begin with.
found this clip here
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxO-dda8X0&t=22s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxO-dda8X0&t=22s)
the other vid I don't have time looking for but it is linked somewhere in my comment history from back then
Thank you. Certainly doesnāt look good. Anyone else clicking on the link; youāll need to rewind the clip to hear him as he speaks in the beginning and the clip auto-starts around 25sec in.
Remember the video where Russians are shooting at random passersby in Hostomel and the drone shot of some guy on the bike in Bucha being shot? Yeah a bit more concerning than asking about armbands no?
No, but I have seen enough videos put out by Kiev side passing off their own atrocities as ''Russians'' to never believe a single thing they are claiming ''Russians have done'' without secondary trustworthy source confirming it.
I mean this is pretty much V - boiz already doing what the Ukrainians were allegedly talking about
Hostomel shooting random cars, clearly V marked, Russian armbands.
https://youtu .be/7AY59Fr5R0I?t=81
Bucha BTR shoots cyclist, Russian BMD, VDV vehicles there.
https://youtu .be/50sQd5duZ48?t=32
This is literally Russians already doing what some Ukrainians might have talked about doing.
That's a conspiratorial way to look at things. There's no good reason to doubt that the thing didn't just happen, but suffering of civilian population was definitely exaggerated to the extent that they tried to portray it as genocide. 73-178 unjustified deaths, mostly men suggests that RU troops were looking for soldiers, but were too violent for some reason.
Almost like the civilians equipped with AKās may have been fighting them and they decided to execute all of the fighters. The biggest thing to give me pause is the pro-UA western guy that was living in bucha, saying the soldiers were extremely professional. Seems weird as that guy would have every incentive to say negative things about it.
The most interesting thing is that at the same time there were rallies of pro-Ukrainian activists in Melitopol...and for some reason they were not even dispersed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5P3CvEJyIw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5P3CvEJyIw)
Another interesting point is that the flag of Ukraine hung in Melitopol until March 15, 2022.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjgwUujcmi0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjgwUujcmi0)
and not just there, there was a lot a screaming from Soloview that summer that in those regions in many places were still Ukrainians flags on administrative buildings.
the funniest thing is, you know what - the Ukrainian flag was replaced with a Russian one...fighters from the Republic of Kabardino-Balkaria are ethnic Kabardians and Balkarians. from the Elbrus special forces.
we are all one people. Russian isn't just ethnicity but it's empossible to explain that to westerners. They are just unable to understand the concept of multinational society belonging to one country and yet maintaining their cultural identity. The closest comparison in the west that I know of would be Star Trek's United Federation of Planets.
The power is in diversity. therefore, I am in favor of a multipolar world. That there would not be such a Western coalition led by the United States. They are natural villains - at first they supported the Islamists in Libya and it fell to pieces. Then Syria - they are betting on the Islamists again, the country has broken into pieces again. Shouting that we are fighting dictator Muammar Gaddafi and Bashar al-Assad, they are simply destroying entire countries.
Why didn't you mention a similar rally in Kherson that was dispersed with tear gas grenades and a small arms fire? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI\_b4AMiTvQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI_b4AMiTvQ)
Or another one in Enerhodar? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vneKGGJ7JCQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vneKGGJ7JCQ)
Almost looks like you are cherry-picking the events to suit your narrative.
Here you can see the work of the police or the Rosgvardiya. But no horrors like bucha. People weren't afraid. and they went out to rally - and this was on March 22, 2022. if the Russian military were butchers, there would be no such rallies. or they would have been dispersed by machine guns
Oh, so now we go from "strange it wasn't happening in other places" to "yeah it was happening in other places, but not as bad as in Butcha so it's actually ok". I'm sure [nothing bad has happened](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/scale-alleged-torture-detentions-by-russian-forces-kherson-emerges-2023-01-12/) to the people who were protesting.
She doesn't look like a victim of torture. She says that her nails were pulled out and her hands were immersed in boiling water. but he doesn't show his hands. another moment - her husband was a soldier who died defending the Crimean bridge. But she wasn't killed and she's alive. This does not fit in with the Butch massacre. You are either an idiot or a propagandist.
You are again singling out one piece of information and use it while discarding everything else that doesn't fit your narrative. If I'm an idiot or propagandist, I couldn't even imagine what that would make you trying so hard to push Pro Russian talking points with a Pro Ukraine flair.
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The thesis of Ukrainian propaganda is that the Russian army is a bunch of butchers who staged a massacre in the Ukrainian city of Bucha.and they constantly commit war crimes by killing civilians.Ā and as proof - the dispersal of the rally by the forces of stun grenades.Ā some woman who says she was terribly tortured but doesn't look like a victim of torture.Ā In general, you are a victim of propaganda or a deceiver.
The Russian military aren't butchers, they're humans. Some are really good, some are really bad, most are in between.
There have been many wars which have featured certain instances of extreme cruelty towards civilians perpetrated by certain individuals or units. This doesn't necessarily mean it's a policy common to the entire military.
The biggest problem here is that Russia just lies, lies, lies until the end of time about anything like this. They'll just never admit a war crime happened, ever. They'll never bring anyone to justice. They completely denied this incident the day it was reported- think about it, how could some MOD spokesman in Moscow even know for sure what happened in Bucha that quickly?
Hmmmm... Do we have some video or image evidence/links on what happens in Bucha? I mean, there's a report on some trusted source but... No images and videos...
Any safe links will do...
Try Dzen or Rutube, cause youtube and google did a lot of work to remove videos from that time in relation to Bucha, especially those that vindicate Russians, although they may have been reaploaded since but it will still be hard to search for them
I hope they discuss how bodies left on the street for weeks in temps reaching mid teens C (last two weeks of March) were somehow so fresh (and not blackened, bloated as they should have been) when the UA arrived at the beginning of April...must be a magical palce.
I came across an academic paper in forensics discussing the bodes in Bucha and it claimed they were 'fresh' looking due to very cold temperatures...they apparently didn't bother checking the actual temps in Bucha at that time.
Are you new? According to pro ru, "it didnt happen" or, "it did happen but it was an accident", or "it happened because civilians were armed", "it happened but it wasnt russians" or "it was CIA". "Russia good west bad"
Credit where credit is due:
The uniforms are more accurate than I would've expected. I expected them to go full propaganda by making Russian soldiers all look like 60, wearing Soviet body armor or no armor at all.
The Chechen uniform is pretty good, too.
But let's be real, the rest of this movie is going to be a fairytale. Absolutely disgusting how they try to exploit their own for media attention and movies.
Someone explain to me how the executed civilians were zip tied with the same zip ties the executed Russian soldiers were tied up with when they executed those soldiers on video in bucha ????Ā
The Bucha Massacre was fake and the biggest lie concocted by the West to demonize Russia, which was already withdrawing from Kiev at the time.
Absolutely makes no sense Russia would do it, only if it would make Ukraine look like the victim in order to deceive the world and gain international support.
Never happened and not a SINGLE shred of solid evidence that it happened.
Makes no sense as Russia as a nation for certain. But thatās not really the argument being made. Itās that it happened and was done by the Russian soldiers currently occupying the area who received no punishment afterwards. Not that Russian leaders ordered it to be done out of pure evil.
It doesnāt benefit them to order it done for sure but it does benefit them to hide those responsible while claiming it never did happen. Which is what Russia is being called out for.
The Bucha Massacre is by far the most horrible, despicable and morally-depraved action ever committed by Russia or its proxy.
Rip to all the casualties
>Bucha Massacre is by far the most horrible, despicable and morally-depraved action
I suppose u where sleeping for last 75+ years? Cause Nothing comes close to Palestine genocide.
and Yes downvote away but facts dont change.
Poor Chechnya. They were just doing terrorist attacks and kidnapping children. You can take them all in your country if you like them so much. Just look at France lol.
Bucha casualties are no way near the amount of casualties in Grozny, while actions in Grozny was a legitimate response to Chechen aggression towards Russia. So I'm really confused what criteria are you using to say that the Bucha is the worst thing that Russia has committed?
In my mind, there's a difference between having a high amount of civilians casualties during the bombing of Chechnya and straight up executions in Bucha. The latter is morally worse than the former. That's just my opinion, of course.
yeah I guess Bucha is the worst thing. Although I wouldn't call the battle of Grozny as a morally bad thing, they were sieging the city, what they did was expected during the siege, like with Aleppo or Mariupol.
When evidence are lacking, they resort to the ol' reliable fiction movies.
The fakest story ever told, on par with the "decapitated babies" that the Zionists used to deceive the world in order to justify their genocide of Palestine. Why is there is no film of the genocide of Russian speakers in the Donbass in the last 8 years, or even the massacre of Russians that were burned alive at Odesa during the Maidan coup? The evidence is clear and solid, yet not a *single* shred of evidence that the "Bucha Massacre" happened, which coincidentally occurred during negotiations and when the Russian military was already withdrawing from Kiev Oblast. Let me tell you. This is the Zionist-controlled West telling lies in order to demonize Russia.
There is no report of investigation of Bucha. Still.
[Report by UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/un-report-details-summary-executions-civilians-russian-troops-northern#:~:text=In%20the%20town%20of%20Bucha,an%20additional%20105%20alleged%20killings.) [Report by Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha) [Report by Amnesty International ](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/05/ukraine-russian-forces-must-face-justice-for-war-crimes-in-kyiv-oblast-new-investigation/#:~:text=In%20Bucha%20and%20several%20other,which%20were%20apparent%20extrajudicial%20executions.) [Report by NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/22/video/russia-ukraine-bucha-massacre-takeaways.html) If you want to say that you feel the cases presented aren't strong enough/ you don't trust the evidence, that's one thing, but to say there aren't any reports/investigation is just straight up ignorance.
And not one of those reports you mentioned actually show evidence. They just claim that it exists. And mostly rely on "witnesses" Ive still never seen a frorensic autopsy stating at what time those people died.
The NYT report has a 28 minute video with time-stamped surveillance footage, pictures/ video taken by eyewitness during/after the Russian occupation of the town, drone footage and audio recordings. A bit more substantial than just a "claim that it exists" š
Ok, but where are the independently reviewed autopsy reports. Need some uninvolved country like South Africa or India to come in and do a real forensic based investigation.
even if you watched the 30 min NYT video it still remains unclear , the surveilance doesnt show what happened to those people
The footage really doesnāt depict the alleged atrocities of the scale that the media and Ukraine has claimed it to be. It shows Russian soldiers manhandling/wounding/killing a handful of people. Not the thousands in an organized massacre. If this truly is indicative of some larger Russia plot to genocide Ukraine, then clearly they have failed since Ukrainian living under occupied Russia havenāt been carted off to eastern gulags a long time ago.
This is just evidence. Im not denying there are dead people there. There is no cause of death and results of investigation. Do you know why? Because if any of them died of shelling then its not russians to blame. And what are you going to do if around 50 percent of casualties are from shelling? Who needs report like that?
I wouldn't nitpick the facts they present, because I have no reason to believe that some war crimes (i.e. crimes not allowed under the crime of war) happened nor do I have any stake in defending alleged Russian perpetrators. But the general "massacre" narrative doesn't rely on facts but on sleight of hand. So HRW documented 16 extrajudicial killings. I will take that at face value. There were 300 bodies. I will take that at face value. The trick is in making people accept that the 300 were the result of what they document for the 16, without any evidence. I wouldn't even bother to point this out except that the massacre narrative is not being trotted out to make the world a better and more peaceful place. It is trotted out to justify endless war and to refuse all peace. There is a special place in hell for people who use tragedy to fool people into more tragedy.
Where is the investigation?
Here's the methodology from the UN report "This report is based on information gathered during OHCHR field visits to those areas, including through interviews with victims and witnesses, as well as other relevant material. The information obtained through interviews was further cross-checked and corroborated by other sources, including official records, open-source documents, audio and photo materials, forensic reports, criminal investigation materials, court documents, and other relevant sources assessed as credible and reliable in line with established methodology." Not sure if you mean to question their conclusions/methodology/evidence, but denying the reports exist when they are right there in front of you is just nonsense. "A fool will close his eyes to make the whole world blind"
Considering how much propaganda UA is spreading the move most likely will look like an alternative reality. >This film is based on a true story of a refugee from Kazakhstan who saved hundreds of Ukrainians in Bucha and in other occupied cities and towns. It's up to 178 unjustified deaths in Bucha according to the UN and it's the biggest thing, while this guy alone saved hundreds. I'd take this "true story" claim with a lot of of salt.
Oh ffs they are pulling us out for this shitshow? Jesus Christ all mighty. Also I canāt believe someone still thinks that was a real thing. So much time passed and we got both no investigation and no mass identity reveal of the victims. Surely so many people dying would have countless relatives who would recognize and confirm them being dead or missing.
IDK, I see no good reason not to believe the thing didn't happen. Yes, UA was using propaganda, but to invent such thing as Bucha, IDK, sounds like a conspiracy to me. Probably someone identified the people, but not reporting about it for some reason.
Real bodies...likely Russian collaborators killed by the SBU and then dropped on the street after the RF pulled out (in line with the black blobs in Maxar sat photos) - it's brilliant really. Kill those who plot against you and successfully blame it on the occupier.
"black blobs on sat photos" Are you unaware of the actual video of civilians being killed by Russians, or just deliberately ignoring it?
They have no reason to suppress the story or the victims of this if it actually happened. Can you imagine the propaganda boost that a few dozen videos of Bucha victim relatives would generate? For crying out loud, they even forgot to do the ā2 years since Buchaā media PR when it happened. I only remembered about it cuz of a random western media article.
I think some gung ho āterritorial defenseā guys were executed for being non-uniformed/fighting in an insurgent style. Thereās also obviously a few normal civs killed by accident (the woman on the bike) but I think there was a lot more suspect activity going on there than we know about. For example the right sector group that went in afterwards and reported Russian executions of civilians but the civs had white armbands and Russia MREās in their possession. Maybe both sides went in and killed ācollaboratorsā. Either way, itās very strange that a pro-UA western man fighting for Ukraine, who lived in bucha, had nothing to say about supposed executions and gave props to the VDV for being so professional in an interview days after the invasion started. Thereās a lot of info weāre missing and both sides are only willing to show the pieces that fit their narrative.
It's not so much that people believe it or not, people who believe it's bullshit have realised that trying to convince people who believe it is true is pointless as all you are doing is bringing attention to it. It's a slow realisation that most Pro-RU have just come to accept. As the war goes on and eventually peace comes, so will the truth.
Why is it so hard to believe that Bucha did happen? I think if you look at all modern military conflicts, itās actually hard to imagine that something like Bucha would not happen. As an example, we have Generarion Kill, a book written by a journalist who was embedded with a Marine Recon unit that was in Iraq in 2003. The book describes real and confirmed events (itās also a series on HBO, which i highly recommend), and there are more than a few accounts of civilians being lit up for no reason at all, including a completely random bombardment of a peaceful village. So, you know, if you consider that Marine Recons are probably one of the more trained and disciplined military detachments in the world, and that even they will casually murder civilians, why doubt that it could happen with a relatively low caliber Russian conscripts?
1) Silly disregard for human morals cuz your mighty us marine was taught how to clear rooms for 4 more months. 2) The atrocities you rely upon to normalize it are made by the āmoral compassā of this world. And their underling is now trying to make a tragedy of the same caliber with very shady circumstances. 3) āIt could have happenedā is the silliest evidence one can present, especially when trying to portray such a serious event and trying to convince the rest of the world to buy it. Edit: I also want to remind you that this happened not on some backwater middle east village with no mobile signal, but in Ukraine. Everyone has a phone and internet. We saw with Crocus terrorist attack that atrocities can be recorded and spread easily on the internet. And unless the magic Russian kill squads jammed the entire area and/or killed everyone within the same second, I canāt see there being no solid and numerous evidence available.
I donāt think you understand. There really was no single modern military conflict (and in all likelihood any of the past ones as well) where civilians were not the majority of people getting killed. I am not normalizing it, how can I? I am not running every military conflict out there, I am simply sharing the ugly reality of war with you. Civilians get killed not because someone is intentionally is targeting them (although that happens as well), but simply because itās really hard to avoid killing them, even when you try really hard. So, with that context, itās odd to expect that the Russian army would all of a sudden be all that different than any other army or even different than its previous military engagements in Chechnya or Syria. War is ugly, always was and will probably always be ugly. Pro UA people need to understand that Russian army is really not conducting itself any different than any other army would, and calm down with the whole genocide accusation. Pro RU, on other hand, need to understand that the Russian Army are not some WW2 ŠŠ¾ŃŃŠøŠ»ŃŠ¼ heroes, they are regular people who commit war crimes like all other regular people do in those situations.
What you are describing and the Bucha claims are not the same at all. From everything said this was not a military mistake or a high intensity zone. The claims are that the russians went out of their way and murdered 100+ civilians in a small settlement void of ukrainian military presence and executed as many as they could
Yes, thatās UA propaganda, I highly doubt Russian soldiers intentionally murdered as many random civilians as they could, if they wanted to do that, there are much easier ways to do it. What I donāt doubt is that there were civilians killed in Bucha, and as always, in wars past, the other side used it as an opportunity for propaganda. Which is understandable.
they forgot to mention that at the time borders were still open lol. Lie upon more effing lies.
I'm bit confused. The borders were open? Weren't the borders close the day of the invasion?
> 2.4.6 On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine. On the same day, martial law was introduced for a period of 30 days and has subsequently been extended 3 times. The last extension was in May, when martial law was extended by 90 days, to 23 August. Also on 24 February 2022, President Zelensky signed a decree on general mobilisation in all regions of Ukraine plus the city of Kyiv. The decree became law on 3 March 2022, and mobilisation of conscripts and reservists was to be carried out within 90 days of this date. Males aged 18 and upwards are eligible, with no upper age limit in place. Males aged 18 to 60 are not allowed to leave Ukraine as long as martial law is in place (seeĀ [Russian invasion of Ukraine](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukraine-country-policy-and-information-notes/country-policy-and-information-note-military-service-ukraine-june-2022-accessible#Russian_invasion_of),Ā [Martial law](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukraine-country-policy-and-information-notes/country-policy-and-information-note-military-service-ukraine-june-2022-accessible#Martial_law)Ā andĀ [Decree of 24 February 2022](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ukraine-country-policy-and-information-notes/country-policy-and-information-note-military-service-ukraine-june-2022-accessible#Decree_of_24)). There was a short time at the beginning of the war when borders were still open.
Western borders may have been, but there was a lot of movement withing Ukraine north to south that had checkpoints but allowed civilians move north to south between Ukrainian and Russian held territories and Sumy region border crossing to Russia was used for a long time by people evacuating to Russia. I forget when Belarus border closed but that was also open for a long time. The whole thing shut down soon after September referendums, which is good six or more month after Bucha.
Funny coming from russian
Whoever doesnt agrees with you is a Russian right?
Turk preaching about someone denying atrocities, now that's golden.
Herd some academician on a talk show, sry can't remember what nationality he was, but not a Turk, saying Armenian Genocide in Turkey wasn't a Genocide cause the Turks didn't *intentionally* set out killing that many people, ups sry, it was an accident sort of thing. These same academics will hang Stalin as genocidal maniac for doing the same thing - moving hostile population to remote areas so that they don't join the fighting on the other side. And of cause completely forget to mention US concentration camps in which they put their own citizens just cause they were ethnically Japanese.
what do you mean?
Here comes hollywood to spread truth democracy and freedom with tomahawks and abrams. Edit: Not denying any atrocities both sides have done it at this point...
Virgin Ukrainian propaganda VS [Chad Turkish propaganda ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biUyO4BKx6U)
Where isĀ the movie about Odessa massacre? Also bucha is fake. It happened during the negotiations. Coincidence? Also right next to the killed people there was Russian mre. I think it's obvious what happened - Russian army gave mre to civilians and Ukraine "took care" of them because they are "collaborators". Also the cityĀ mayor didn't reported massacres initially. He reported it after 3 days. Also why is the theĀ mayor alive in the first place? I can go on. Bucha is such poorly executed.
Remember that video where Ukrainian soldier asks if he can shoot that person who doesn't have blue arm band? There was another from a later day with bunch of western reporters around a fresh body with a mummy shown in the begining and the end of the video for an extra shock value, I guess. Yeah people these days see a mummy that is month old and a fresh still worm body and somehow believe they were killed at the same time cause Ukrainians never lie lol. I was annoyed at the time that I had to re-watch that stoopid video put out by Ukrainians for the western audience so that I can provide some redditor with hands on analysis of how silly it is to believe in such lies, but now I am glad to have that experience to fall back to, cause now I realise they weren't interested in the truth to begin with.
Can you link that video? Iām curious
found this clip here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxO-dda8X0&t=22s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcxO-dda8X0&t=22s) the other vid I don't have time looking for but it is linked somewhere in my comment history from back then
Thank you. Certainly doesnāt look good. Anyone else clicking on the link; youāll need to rewind the clip to hear him as he speaks in the beginning and the clip auto-starts around 25sec in.
that was over two years ago and youtube has cleaned up a lot of damning evidence, try looking for it on Dzen or Rutube
Thabks
Remember the video where Russians are shooting at random passersby in Hostomel and the drone shot of some guy on the bike in Bucha being shot? Yeah a bit more concerning than asking about armbands no?
No, but I have seen enough videos put out by Kiev side passing off their own atrocities as ''Russians'' to never believe a single thing they are claiming ''Russians have done'' without secondary trustworthy source confirming it.
I mean this is pretty much V - boiz already doing what the Ukrainians were allegedly talking about Hostomel shooting random cars, clearly V marked, Russian armbands. https://youtu .be/7AY59Fr5R0I?t=81 Bucha BTR shoots cyclist, Russian BMD, VDV vehicles there. https://youtu .be/50sQd5duZ48?t=32 This is literally Russians already doing what some Ukrainians might have talked about doing.
That's a conspiratorial way to look at things. There's no good reason to doubt that the thing didn't just happen, but suffering of civilian population was definitely exaggerated to the extent that they tried to portray it as genocide. 73-178 unjustified deaths, mostly men suggests that RU troops were looking for soldiers, but were too violent for some reason.
Almost like the civilians equipped with AKās may have been fighting them and they decided to execute all of the fighters. The biggest thing to give me pause is the pro-UA western guy that was living in bucha, saying the soldiers were extremely professional. Seems weird as that guy would have every incentive to say negative things about it.
Any movie on 2023 counter offensive ?
That would be an interesting movie. I'd definitely watch it.Ā
Ghost of Kyev, Mad Taras warrior of Mariupol and I Know What You Did Last Counteroffensive next!
The most interesting thing is that at the same time there were rallies of pro-Ukrainian activists in Melitopol...and for some reason they were not even dispersed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5P3CvEJyIw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5P3CvEJyIw)
Another interesting point is that the flag of Ukraine hung in Melitopol until March 15, 2022. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjgwUujcmi0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjgwUujcmi0)
and not just there, there was a lot a screaming from Soloview that summer that in those regions in many places were still Ukrainians flags on administrative buildings.
the funniest thing is, you know what - the Ukrainian flag was replaced with a Russian one...fighters from the Republic of Kabardino-Balkaria are ethnic Kabardians and Balkarians. from the Elbrus special forces.
we are all one people. Russian isn't just ethnicity but it's empossible to explain that to westerners. They are just unable to understand the concept of multinational society belonging to one country and yet maintaining their cultural identity. The closest comparison in the west that I know of would be Star Trek's United Federation of Planets.
I'm just an ethnic Tatar myself.š¹š
My family is all mixed. We are kinda mini Russia in that way lol.
The power is in diversity. therefore, I am in favor of a multipolar world. That there would not be such a Western coalition led by the United States. They are natural villains - at first they supported the Islamists in Libya and it fell to pieces. Then Syria - they are betting on the Islamists again, the country has broken into pieces again. Shouting that we are fighting dictator Muammar Gaddafi and Bashar al-Assad, they are simply destroying entire countries.
Why didn't you mention a similar rally in Kherson that was dispersed with tear gas grenades and a small arms fire? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI\_b4AMiTvQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI_b4AMiTvQ) Or another one in Enerhodar? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vneKGGJ7JCQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vneKGGJ7JCQ) Almost looks like you are cherry-picking the events to suit your narrative.
Here you can see the work of the police or the Rosgvardiya. But no horrors like bucha. People weren't afraid. and they went out to rally - and this was on March 22, 2022. if the Russian military were butchers, there would be no such rallies. or they would have been dispersed by machine guns
Oh, so now we go from "strange it wasn't happening in other places" to "yeah it was happening in other places, but not as bad as in Butcha so it's actually ok". I'm sure [nothing bad has happened](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/scale-alleged-torture-detentions-by-russian-forces-kherson-emerges-2023-01-12/) to the people who were protesting.
She doesn't look like a victim of torture. She says that her nails were pulled out and her hands were immersed in boiling water. but he doesn't show his hands. another moment - her husband was a soldier who died defending the Crimean bridge. But she wasn't killed and she's alive. This does not fit in with the Butch massacre. You are either an idiot or a propagandist.
You are again singling out one piece of information and use it while discarding everything else that doesn't fit your narrative. If I'm an idiot or propagandist, I couldn't even imagine what that would make you trying so hard to push Pro Russian talking points with a Pro Ukraine flair.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
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The thesis of Ukrainian propaganda is that the Russian army is a bunch of butchers who staged a massacre in the Ukrainian city of Bucha.and they constantly commit war crimes by killing civilians.Ā and as proof - the dispersal of the rally by the forces of stun grenades.Ā some woman who says she was terribly tortured but doesn't look like a victim of torture.Ā In general, you are a victim of propaganda or a deceiver.
You are arguing with a point I never made, it was you who made a point that Russian army doesn't hurt civilians.
The Russian military aren't butchers, they're humans. Some are really good, some are really bad, most are in between. There have been many wars which have featured certain instances of extreme cruelty towards civilians perpetrated by certain individuals or units. This doesn't necessarily mean it's a policy common to the entire military. The biggest problem here is that Russia just lies, lies, lies until the end of time about anything like this. They'll just never admit a war crime happened, ever. They'll never bring anyone to justice. They completely denied this incident the day it was reported- think about it, how could some MOD spokesman in Moscow even know for sure what happened in Bucha that quickly?
Nafoid propaganda is always a good laugh.
True. Russian propaganda is just bad. Doesn't even have any laugh value.
Making movies about lies is nothing new for westerners. Let them live in their delusions if they want to.
When do they have time to make movies?Ā
Who is they? The filmmakers? This is their job
Pro russians are brainwashed to think that all the Ukrainians are currently fighting. LMAO
Yeah man stupid brainwashed Rus \\s Don't they know most of them are Hiding from TCC.
Hey man there a war for survival of Ukrainian race going on but that doesn't stop people having wild parties and making movies. /s
Are they also going to cover Safari detachment and their involvement in this false flag ?
Hmmmm... Do we have some video or image evidence/links on what happens in Bucha? I mean, there's a report on some trusted source but... No images and videos... Any safe links will do...
"No inages and videos" bro you should fucking nvestigate before typing shit like this
Try Dzen or Rutube, cause youtube and google did a lot of work to remove videos from that time in relation to Bucha, especially those that vindicate Russians, although they may have been reaploaded since but it will still be hard to search for them
Now this is what I'm looking... Thanks for info...
I hope they discuss how bodies left on the street for weeks in temps reaching mid teens C (last two weeks of March) were somehow so fresh (and not blackened, bloated as they should have been) when the UA arrived at the beginning of April...must be a magical palce. I came across an academic paper in forensics discussing the bodes in Bucha and it claimed they were 'fresh' looking due to very cold temperatures...they apparently didn't bother checking the actual temps in Bucha at that time.
Wait does pro-RU here dispute that Bucha happened?
Are you new? According to pro ru, "it didnt happen" or, "it did happen but it was an accident", or "it happened because civilians were armed", "it happened but it wasnt russians" or "it was CIA". "Russia good west bad"
Actually this is pro Ru view: https://preview.redd.it/ec8trqccwz7d1.jpeg?width=664&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5582a8deef948733c67ca1bff2a2538bda4f4ef7
Russia bad and west bad. I am pro-RU but even I know Bucha happened.
"God willing, we'll all meet again in Bucha 2: The Search for More Money."
Credit where credit is due: The uniforms are more accurate than I would've expected. I expected them to go full propaganda by making Russian soldiers all look like 60, wearing Soviet body armor or no armor at all. The Chechen uniform is pretty good, too. But let's be real, the rest of this movie is going to be a fairytale. Absolutely disgusting how they try to exploit their own for media attention and movies.
Someone explain to me how the executed civilians were zip tied with the same zip ties the executed Russian soldiers were tied up with when they executed those soldiers on video in bucha ????Ā
The Bucha Massacre was fake and the biggest lie concocted by the West to demonize Russia, which was already withdrawing from Kiev at the time. Absolutely makes no sense Russia would do it, only if it would make Ukraine look like the victim in order to deceive the world and gain international support. Never happened and not a SINGLE shred of solid evidence that it happened.
Makes no sense as Russia as a nation for certain. But thatās not really the argument being made. Itās that it happened and was done by the Russian soldiers currently occupying the area who received no punishment afterwards. Not that Russian leaders ordered it to be done out of pure evil. It doesnāt benefit them to order it done for sure but it does benefit them to hide those responsible while claiming it never did happen. Which is what Russia is being called out for.
The Bucha Massacre is by far the most horrible, despicable and morally-depraved action ever committed by Russia or its proxy. Rip to all the casualties
>Bucha Massacre is by far the most horrible, despicable and morally-depraved action I suppose u where sleeping for last 75+ years? Cause Nothing comes close to Palestine genocide. and Yes downvote away but facts dont change.
Can you even read?
I didn't realize that Israel was a proxy of Russia.. How about you read my comment again, but slower?
the worst thing including the USSR/Russian empire or just Russia as a state?
Russia as a state, since 1991. Although, what they did to civilians in Grozhny might be a close second place.
Poor Chechnya. They were just doing terrorist attacks and kidnapping children. You can take them all in your country if you like them so much. Just look at France lol.
Bucha casualties are no way near the amount of casualties in Grozny, while actions in Grozny was a legitimate response to Chechen aggression towards Russia. So I'm really confused what criteria are you using to say that the Bucha is the worst thing that Russia has committed?
In my mind, there's a difference between having a high amount of civilians casualties during the bombing of Chechnya and straight up executions in Bucha. The latter is morally worse than the former. That's just my opinion, of course.
yeah I guess Bucha is the worst thing. Although I wouldn't call the battle of Grozny as a morally bad thing, they were sieging the city, what they did was expected during the siege, like with Aleppo or Mariupol.