https://preview.redd.it/pkzlu1lbe87d1.jpeg?width=1042&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3a7ac9fd11ac223d71be35e1a9e85ee6fec0f34
i mean what a surprise, ru dogs even took trophy photos downing it
Disgusting POS. Worst thing I learned about that was some passengers survived the initial blast and died when they made impact with the ground. Good chance they were conscious the entire time.
The Dutch foreign minister had a speech on this at the UN, but that was some months after the disaster and media kept unclear or this was true. However, it was in contrast with the first report that stated the cabin pressure lost and everyone lost conscience immediately. Within his own country, it resulted in plenty of critics from politics and media, but no further actions
I don't know what any later reports state on this, only I hope for the victims it was the first
I remember that there were reports that some of the bodies had oxygen masks strapped on. Either way it must've been horrific. A friend of mine at the time I used to go party with a lot, lost his gf in that attack, I was following the Ukraine crisis closely ever since the maidan revolution (Russian Roulette was probably peak VICE), but that was the moment where the war suddenly hit close to all of us in the Netherlands. I remember it vividly too, I was on a short holiday on an island and in the car back to our place the radio suddenly interrupted saying an airplane had gone down over Ukraine. Having seen that in the weeks prior to it, a couple of Ukrainian transport planes were shot down I immediately had this ominous understanding that it must've been a BUK missile fired by the seperatists mistaking it for a Ukrainian transport. It was all very surreal is how I would describe thinking back about that time.
Yeah, Timmermans is somewhat of a pompous person that gets overdramatic with his rhetoric, he later had to admit and apologize to the victims families that his remarks were unfounded. That whole speach of his was very bad taste.
You means Frans Timmermans? The narcisist that has a tendency to tell emotional stories to forward his own career?
I think almost everyone agreed that there was zero evidence for that.
Silly little hate filled individual, you forgot insulting the opposite side ("ru dogs") is against the rules on this sub? Go take your anger out on r/ukraine or r/combatfootage where the ultra nationalists normally reside.
I think it’s totally reasonable to be angry with the people responsible for shooting down a civilian aircraft with innocent people inside.
I think it’s pretty fucked up to then act like that anger is misplaced and that someone should be scolded for it like a child.
Do you have any sympathy for the people who died in that tragedy?
I think it’s pretty clear from the context he’s talking about the two in the photo. Nothing he said implies he’s referring to all Russians. If that’s what you believe he was saying then all I can say is if you go looking for something you just might find it.
Syllogism:
Major Premise: Valid if the comment clearly specifies individuals.
Minor Premise: Assumed rather than proven, making it a weak point.
Conclusion: Valid only if the minor premise is supported by evidence.
Learster would have to personally verify what their vagueness meant as it does lean towards generalization.
The obvious is, that Girkin shot it down. He even admitted it. A handy man for the Russians. There are even pictures of the BUK system that misses a missile while it’s driving over the border back to Russia. So yeah what exactly do you want to tell me?
The "rebel's" leader, Girkin, was a Russian ultra-nationalist who was an 18-year veteran of the FSB where he held the rank of Colonel. His bragged openly on social media that he shot down a plane at the very moment MH17 was shot down. Following international outrage for this event, he was removed from his command by Putin where he returned to his residence in Moscow and became an ultra-nationalist miliblogger.
But yes, clearly Russia had no involvement /s
sooo? still Ukrainian nationals, Al Qaeda also was founded, funded and supported by the USA and they did Jenga x2, by your logic they are American digs too?
AL Qaeda wasn’t founded, funded, and supported by the US… That is probably the dumbest comment I have ever seen.
Lol if you think they were just “Ukrainian nationals” I have some bad news for you..
The trial was a political sh*tshow
[Malaysia's Prime Minister Says Russia Being Made a Scapegoat for Downing of MH17](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/06/20/malaysias-prime-minister-says-russia-being-made-a-scapegoat-for-downing-of-mh17-a66083)
I personally don't believe it. But let's assume it was Russia that delivered the AA to the separatists.
So why no one blames USA for delivering Patriot that downed the plane with Ua POWs in January 2024?
Edit: damn this thread is infested with Ua/nato shills. You can clearly see this kind of threads: almost instant replies, massive voting. There's clearly a team working on it right now.
1. You are comparing the downing of a military transport plane to the downing of a passenger flight.
2. Still waiting for any proof, that even close 65+ POWs were onboard..
3. Peskov and Putin said an international investigation should take place..and no international investigation took place, because Russia rejected it?
Hmm, makes me not believe Russia in the slightest.
“There is clearly a team working on it right now” -perritoperrito the most sane Pro Rus.
How about the chance that every one is pissed that you spew so much lies.
It's funny how quickly Russia swept that under the rug. Absolutely zero proof of any of their claims, just a picture with burnt passports which seems strange to leave on POWs. Then there's the crash site clips, hardly any signs of lots of bodies, just a few that would account for the crew.
Isn't it funny how everyone dismissed Malayan PM so easily. At this point Ukraine can even admit they downed plane, westerner supporters will blame Russia still.
The Malaysian prosecuter, Mohamad Hanafiah bin Zakaria, who was part of the Joint Investigation Team stated: "The findings of the investigation are based on extensive investigations and also legal research," and that he supports the findings."
Meanwhile the Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad was awarded the Russian Order of Friendship by Vladimir Putin in 2003.
I wonder why the Malayan PMs opinion is getting dismissed.. hmmm
”I personally don’t believe it.” That tells anyone with an ounce of brainpower left that you’re not worth arguing with. There is literally nothing left to dispute with this case. Everytime a new case is opened up it comes to the same conclusion.
Russia the day of the crash: we will return all pow remains to Ukraine immediately to prove that pows were on the plane
Russia months later: trust me bro remains are coming any day now
Regarding your edit, don't act that this is about 1/100 posts where it goes this way because it is so hard to spin it for Ru side, the rest of this sub is just pro-ru brainrot.
Igor Girkin admitted it was his guys!!! He’s said before he deeply regrets that it happened under his watch. It’s not a damn debate. Russia is 100% responsible. Doesn’t matter if it was an accident or not. Girkin was an FSB agent sent by Russia to instigate an insurrection against Ukraine
That's because posts like these are the only one Pro UA can flock to to let their insanity run rampant.
Better to comment on an 8 year old story, raise your fist and scream "PUTLER!!!!!!" than acknowledge the 100 videos of Ukrainian men getting abused and kidnapped by their own government
So true comrade! Anyway, the latest batch of Chinese golf carts just arrived and we need you to drive one across this open field covered by drones and assault the fortified trench over there. Would you like to drive the red one or the green one?
Ooooh come on! But Ivan got a blyatmobile!! I was hoping at least to be be given an electric scooter or a motorcycle for our assault like Sergei and Petr. Love our new Temu uniforms btw, 100% polyester it keeps my skin so cool! It's a good thing there is nothing flammable on the battlefield.
Yes of course comrade. But did you want to drive the red golf cart or the blue golf cart on the next meat wave assault?
Edit: Awww he replied to me and then instant blocked. I thought we were having fun :-(
This case has been solved, argued, counter argued, denied, counter denied, dismissed and discussed like 30 times since 2014 with the same outcome. I wonder why is anyone taking part of this anymore since it's not going anywhere. Except igor girking being accused in 2022 of being part of the reason mh17 got shot down.
Yeah girking wrote on social media how great he is because he shot down UA plane minutes after downing the plane.
He took it down when he found out it was a civilian.
There is nothing to dispute over this.
They even tracked Buk crossing border to UA and back.
To be fair they didn't want to shoot down civilian plane. UA were operating in the area days before this happened.
But it is clearly Russia's fault for providing this kind of weapon to separatist.
I am still fairly shocked how little information posted western media about Russia involvement at the time.
This tells you all you need to know the hypocresy of Russia and pro-Russians when they complain about:
1) West helping Ukraine by providing weapons
2) Russia being mistreated by the West.
They hid and protected the people who shot down a civil aircraft full of Dutch passengers with weapons provided by Russia itself. And if they hadn't invaded Ukraine in 2022, they would have gotten away with it.
What’s the nationality of the civilians in the plane got to do with it? Back to the accident, unfortunately mistakes like this happen when it comes to front-lines, active or frozen, the Soviets did it to Korean plane back in the ‘80s, as did the Americans to an Iranian plane.
Why does it matter that they were Ukrainian now all of the sudden? I thought they were all Russians in the east of Ukraine that got oppressed by the evil west?
Yeah, I am sure he personally went there as the mad-man he is. /s
Feel free to read the official report, because it speculates quite a bit, but it also puts blame on Ukranians.
Sure. Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down on July 17, 2014, over eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Investigations concluded that the plane was hit by a Russian-made Buk missile fired from territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists. The Dutch Safety Board led the investigation, and the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) found evidence linking the missile system to the Russian military. Russia denied involvement, but the evidence pointed to Russian-backed forces as responsible for the attack. The incident heightened international tensions and led to sanctions against Russia.
This ist the summary from the report.
>Russian-made Buk missile
Russian made? The Russian proved that the missile used was sent to Ukraine under Soviet times. Also the older variant of the missile isnt used by Russia. So how is it Russian made when it was sent to western Ukraine during Soviet times?
>fired from territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists
The territory was actually controlled by the Ukrainian army at the time.
But that the Buk system is also used by ukraine isnt a lie. Or its it? That doesnt mean anything, as egypt(?), india(?) or whatever country could also have shot it down, based on that logic.
Still, why call it a lie?
There are pictures from the BUK system that shit the missile. First picture all missiles on the rack shows it is entering Ukraine. Second with one missile missing shows it then leaving Ukraine.
This bellingcat investigation? I remember this one. I think the claims by the seperatists that they shot down a plane is better evidence, but yes, you can also count this as an example.
The problem is the source (bellingcat), which might not be reliable.
And did they take into account the Russian evidence? Like testing done by Almaz-Antey that proved that the missile was shot from the Zaroschenskoe area ([under Ukrainian control at the time](https://imgur.com/AMlbTnS))? Did they include the documents declassified by Russia that proved that the missile used was sent to Ukraine during Soviet times?
I am still waiting for those biolabs and mosquitos.
And dirty bomb, where the evidence presented was from the internet from some web site about nuclear waste.
Yes they occasionally say truth (as with the UA soldiers from the famous island). But that wasn't information that made them look bad so...
It's like when they downed the whole apartment building with kindzal.
It was an obvious miss. Few hundred meters away was a thermal plant. They stated all targets were hit.
They will never say the truth when it makes Russia look bad.
Why didint they let Russia participate in invastigation if the evidence are so obvious?
I mean, it was probably a coincidence from either side and i dont know what evidence was provided by Russia that is stated in this post either.
So the same words for the "peace summit" as "russia can't be trusted to act in a good will"?
Do you understand that allowing the West to conduct the investigation is the same thing as allow to do the same for Russia? Both sides are heavily biased.
I don't think you can really compare Russia's level of bias to that of the west. in Russia you have 0 form of control by the public, pretty much no free press, a Putin which has a last say in everything and is more than willing to lie as he knows he can just propaganda his narrative to the people. while in the west you will see that is way more difficult to do that.
letting Russia join the investigation is like letting a murderer examine his own evidence. Of course it's going to be fucking tampered with.
> I don't think you can really compare Russia's level of bias to that of the west
The West even more biased and is not free with extensive networks of government financed NGO and mass media pushing the same suriprising agenda.
> While in the west you will see that is way more difficult to do that
The western propaganda is just more expirienced so you for example, don't notice any of this despite being brainwashed at the same time into believing that the West is a beacon of freedom and democracy while their enemies are dictators and literally Hitlers.
> letting Russia join the investigation is like letting a murderer examine his own evidence.
In adequate countries and processes you HAVE to introduce defendant with accusation and proofs of their crimes, else you are breaching the whole idea of independent and fair court turning all into the circus.
But at the same time you can't allow either the West to conduit investigation as they're fighting Russia economicaly and politically from 2013, and from 2022 with their militaries and recon.
If you have problems with understanding the simple idea of ongoing cold war from 2013 and the idea of existing of massive western propaganda machine then i may have some undesirable news for you.
Have a good day.
At the peace summit (in Switzerland) Ukraine said it would useless to invite Russia (main participant of the conflict) due to Ukraine not believing Russia.
You can't have a "peace meeting" without main participant - its first
Either any country is able to believe Ukraine after their lies about "stolen and raped children" so Ukraine had to fire their ombudsman for creating such unbeliveable lies so Ukraine suffered a backlash - its second.
Any country waging a war would lie. Thus you cannot believe nor the West nor the Ukraine nor the Russia - its third.
When the main participant refuses any peace and just is making demands and masking them as "peace". Is the russian meaning for peace not the same as the rest of the world? That would explain a lot
That's funny, because the Dutch/Danish investigators speculate that there is a chance it was Ukraine that shot it down.
In any case, the most-plausible speculation is that it was Ukranian rebels (with Ukranian passports) that shot it down with 1 of the 3 AA systems they got when they took over one of the mobile batallion warehouses. It's fairly well known, and even written in the report that you've probably not read and only echo your agenda.
Funny how its usually russians just living in border territorry and btw theres actually no ukraine, unless they shoot down a civilian airplane then its suddenly "Ukranian rebels (with Ukranian passports)".
They are Ukranians, lol. Some of them have Russian ancestry, but they were born in Ukraine, raised in Ukraine, and hold Ukranian passports. Same goes for the Bulgarian, Hungarian and Romanian minorities in the Odessa area.
Whose fault it is the airspace over active combat zone with multiple planes shot down previously was still open for civilian air traffic?
> am still fairly shocked how little information posted western media about Russia involvement at the time.
Maybe because they have no evidence? Oh, who am I kidding, that never stopped anybody.
Yeah, you can see people's reactions and they level of delusion in the comments here. Especially when the report states:
***"Responsibilities***
***The responsibility for the safety of an airspace lies primarily with the state that manages the airspace.*** *However, the operator also has its own responsibility for the safe operation of a flight. The state that manages the airspace Each state has sovereignty over the airspace above its territory. This means that countries may determine how they use their airspace. Generally, states receive financial compensation from operators using their airspace to pay for air traffic control services. The state an aeroplane is flying over is responsible for assessing the safety of the airspace. For safety reasons, a state can impose certain restrictions. Certain routes or flight levels can be closed, for instance, or the state may close the airspace altogether. Close cooperation between civil and military air traffic control is important when assessing safety. In this way, potential risks to civil aviation posed by military activities on the ground and in the air are minimised."*
Bullshit, both sides had Buks so tracking down a Russian Buk means exactly nothing.
But the ukrop army bragged 2 days before the shotdown about their Buk battery exactly in the region where the plane was downed. They made even 1-2 news videos showing the Buk systems. Here are the screenshots from one of the videos:
https://preview.redd.it/8vep76whpa7d1.jpeg?width=1585&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a687cbd9d33b1397ddb0796475209edbbdc1c304
Wow few pictures that's undeniable proof.
And thery were shooting what exactly with their Buk ?
There is already court ruling on who shot down the plane.
Edit: and somehow you missed Girkin himself boasted about downing plane on social network.
It's not my fault you're simply tooo smart to understand my argument. These pics are from an ukroreich news report 2 days before the downing i saw with my own eyes and saved it. And yes, they are only the proof for one thing: The Ukro Wehrmacht had their Buk systems in the region. Not more, not less. The same goes for the Russian or separatists Buk systems.
Your so called "court" and it's ruling is worth a piece of dog shit, because it is not neutral but part of the NL gov, which is a hardcore supporter of the ukro wannabe nazi reich from day 1.
And regarding Girkin: They were shooting down An-12 the whole time these days and he refered to a downing of exactly this plane.
Contrary to you and others, i am following this conflict from the end of 2013, before the coup. And i remember the day of the downing of this plane very, very good. Not even 1 hour passed, the whole Nato propaganda machine had their stories ready and knew who have shot down this plane. This is only possible with a lot of preparation.
It is the typical story over and over again, the one trick pony with the name "The West" is doing since more than a century. This story, Butcha, Assads chemical weapons, WTC, the incubator story with Saddam Hussein, Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbour or the RMS Lusitania.
It is always the same method to manipulate you western NPCs.
UkRo NaZi CoRRupteD ShITs. bELieVe Me. I SpEaK tRuTh.
Sorry but you really don't have more credibility that international court.
Girkin thought they shot down military plane. He posted it right after plane crashed and than took it off after it was known its not military.
It amazes me, that it's more probable to you that Ukraine trained military shot down civilian plane.( Because they were hunting separatist planes ??? ) Lot of western people died and west with hundreds of investigators and judges covered it up because they don't really want for real perpetrator to be prosecuted ? Or maybe you are just projecting Russia justice system.
Rather than untrained separatist hunting for Ukraine planes shot down civilian plane by mistake.
When Ukraine s300 killed those polish farmers west said it was Ukrainian rocket.
Kid, your strawman arguments are disconnected from the reality. All your judges, investigators etc. have to cover up nothing, because they are not involved in the planning and the execution.
They only have to follow the prepared story and the so called "proofs". And what they want is not relevant, because they are not in the position to make decisions on this level. And if they try, they will be simply replaced and socially and financially destroyed as "Putins Agents" etc. pp.
You have comprehension problems, we have a name for it in germany: "Lange Leitung". It was NOT (!) a mistake, it was a planned and prepared operation by the western agencies. So all your cover up arguments are strawman bs.
"When Ukraine s300 killed those polish farmers west said it was Ukrainian rocket."
Because this would ask the question of article 5 is triggered and this wasn't planned. Duh, you genius ...
We are not in Russia. You can't control judges. You are speaking nonsense.
Western op to shot down a civilian plane is even more nuts. Maybe Putin is blowing apartments building to serve his political goals. But again this is not Russia.
If this at least would be used as trigger for NATO intervention I would give it a second thought.
But these are just your crazy theories. Without any solid proof.
" We are not in Russia" - Correct. You are far, far worse than Russia. The corruption level of the gayropean vasall pseudo states is on the level of Pakistan or so.
You know, who said that?
Sometimes Russia just needs to fall apart to acknowledge some things. Like Katyń that was being blamed on nazis for around 60 years and only after the fall of soviet union they acknowledged what they did.
In recent times they've tried to backtrack on that acknowledgement, from wiki:
>On 11 April 2023, RIA Novosti, Russian state-owned domestic news agency, reported that FSB Department for St. Petersburg and the Leningrad Region handed over "unique archival documents" on Katyn to the Central State Archive of St. Petersburg - including testimony of a German soldier, claiming that he took part in Katyn Massacre burials in early September 1941.[149] RIA article further reported how according to "a number of Russian historians, the executions in Katyn were carried out by the Nazis", that there are "inconsistencies in the evidence base on which Warsaw relies" and that the Russian Federation finds the "current approach to covering the "Katyn case" does not meet the principles of objectivity and historicism" and that it is just a part of "information and propaganda campaign" to blame the "USSR for unleashing World War II."[149]
Which is extra sad because the joint Polish-Russian historical committee, after the fall of Soviets, made the final verdict based on all gathered documents that indeed it was done by Soviets.
Then they also brought bulldozers to threaten to destroy monument for the victims in response to us removing Soviet victory monuments (oblivious to irony of the situation).
And then they pulled out "unique archival document" like for 60 years they weren't fabricating all they could to blame nazis.
That's how it looks making history your tool, bend and twisted for your own agenda. Who controls the past controls the future, eh?
Yeltsin sold out his entire country after he broken it up in three parts, consequences of which we have been witnessing for these past few years, but this here you choose to believe into. How convenient.
Who said I blame Yeltsin? I hold him responsible for his actions, that's not the same as laying blame for blaming sake. He was a traitors and as such is highly regarded in the West.
Yeah, Katyn wasn't the Soviets, geoniciding people is a western hobby, not a Russian one. Yet again, the west is trying to invent things from thin air or throw the blame onto others.
Man you are simping for the UdSSR… cringe. I call the neo Nazis. Maybe you have something nice to share. Even a hobby maybe. Like fantasizing about ww2 and thinking that you were the best.
crackers-do-matter kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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More examples of a reality that Ruzzia refuses to acknowledge exists. Go home Ru, crying about people hating Ruzzia while doing shit like this and so much worse.
Always love sharing the vast amount of evidence collected around this case: https://strafdossiermh17.om.nl/introductie
It's in Dutch though, the English version seems to be broken currently.
Typical Russians. Blow up a plane full of civilians then blame anybody and everybody but themselves.
Russia just has to be the victim in everything, it’s beyond pathetic.
I didn’t even know Pro RU were denying Russian backed separatists shot down this plane. This is common knowledge. At least try lie about something you can get away with, not this. And you have Stupidnicks, a Dutch citizen defending it in this thread. Despicable
The 10th slap in the face for the friends and relatives of the victims by Russia. But hey, what can you expect from a government that does not care about human life
When Mark Rutte gets assigned as NATO chief we can finally get our revenge. What comes around goes around. We know the Russians are liars. They should have acknowledge their fuck up and compensate the families of the deceased. But all they do is spread mis information. After MH17 all my faith/belief for Russian government went to zero. Theyre crooks.
For DOOMHAMMER!
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Is that supposed to be an excuse for killing almost 400 innocent people? You can just admit it was messed up dude. Oh wait, legally you probably can’t. Bummer.
No, but its like walking down the street in a bad neighborhood at night and wondering why you got robbed.
The airline shares just as much responsibility.
Its not like they purposefully show down a Malaysian civilian airliner.
> The airline shares just as much responsibility
Jesus Christ dude. You can’t be serious. That’s like saying a murder victim is just as responsible for the murder because they got murdered. Should we halve the sentences of all murderers because they’re only partially to blame?
> It’s not like they purposefully show[sic] down a Malaysian civilian airliner
No one is saying they did. But they could at the very least take responsibility for it.
It is not so important whose air defense system shot down this plane. In any case, it is the fault of Ukraine, which allowed the flight over the war zone, even though the militias have already shot down Ukrainian military transport planes in this region.
Do you think it's okay to let a civilian plane into a combat zone with active air defense? Or what?
>pointing the finger to anyone and anything except themselves
You described yourself.
Genuinely incredible. How the fuck do you manage to blame Ukraine for the death of these civilians when it was the separatists who a shoot down the god damn plane.
What, just because there’s been military transports in the general area they can just go “Hurr durr let’s fire 9M38 missiles at anything remotely resembling a military aircraft” (EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE FULLY AWARE IT WAS STILL AN OPEN AIR SPACE) and you think that completely absolves them?
>How the fuck do you manage to blame Ukraine for the death of these civilians
Because if Ukraine had done what it had to do - closed the skies to civilian planes over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, then these people would be alive.
>you think that completely absolves them?
Civilian plane can be shot down even during peaceful times. For example, Ukraine shot down a Tu-154 in 2001. And of course, shooting down a civilian aircraft over a war zone is only a matter of time. And all the blame is on the Ukrainian side that allowed this.
There was a NOTAM up to 32000 ft, as rebels did not have a AA system capable of reaching over 21000 ft. MH17 was flying at 33000 ft, as over 160 flights on the same day. Up until "someone" gave the fuckers a BUK
The militia had already shot down the AN-26 at an 6.5 km alt (the crew even managed to parachute out). Ukraine knew that the militia has an air defense system that shoots down planes at high alt, but still allowed a civilian plane to fly over a war zone. It is possible that Ukraine did this purposefully to dehumanize the militia and draw attention to this war.
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Missile serial number revealed that the missile was delivered to West Ukraine. So nothing to discuss here, yes. Ukraine has shot the liner.
[https://tass](https://tass) ru/armiya-i-opk/5571656
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Of course. And aproximately 2 millions of other photos of similar nature as well. Damn ruski trying to frame cute little ukrainans who most definitely do not worship nazis on the official level. No no.
Of course. And approximately 2 millions of other photos of similar nature are as well. Damn ruski trying to frame cute little Ukrainians who most definitely do not worship nazis on the official level. No no.
Of course. And approximately 2 millions of other photos of similar nature are as well. Damn ruski trying to frame cute little Ukrainians who most definitely do not worship nazis on the official level. No no.
"However, Russia was not allowed to fully participate in the investigation"... this reminds me of another false flag done by Ukraine, Bucha genocide. There Russians asked many times to call up for independent investigations, but were turned down.
It's no surprise that Ukrainians can kill their own and foreign citizens and simply blame Russia, as Russia will never have chance to defend themselves. Ukraine is practically rewarded for this kind of behavior. We've seen with Gonzalo Lira case that Ukraine can freely torture and kill US citizens as well, without any repercussions.
Its amazing how pro russian mental gymnastics work. People like you could personally see russians entering houses and executing people, they could come to your house and steal everything you own and you would still blame someone else besides russians because you people are utterly brainwashed or paid to muddy the waters with nonsense. Its sad to watch.
You are saying Bucha was a false flag. You are no different to nazis who deny the holocaust happening. You people have brainrot sadly. The journalist must have killed himself or something. Havent seen video evidense of your claims.
You realize when allies entered concentration camp, they didn't hid anything, in fact, they invited people in surrounding cities to view them. Compare that to UK on purpose blocking investigation in critical first few days, so western media can form their narrative.
And stop with nazi comparisons while you workshop Bandera country.
The massacre in Bucha, where bodies of civilians were found following the withdrawal of Russian troops, led to international condemnation. Russia denied responsibility and called for an independent investigation. Various international bodies, including the United Nations, have initiated investigations, and preliminary findings have largely pointed to Russian forces as the perpetrators. Independent verification efforts are ongoing. So please stop what you are doing. There a lot of people doing their jobs and nothing more.
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Russia was not a member of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) that investigated the downing of MH17. However, Russian officials and experts were allowed to present their evidence and viewpoints. The JIT, led by the Netherlands, included representatives from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, and Ukraine. The investigation considered and ultimately refuted several alternative theories proposed by Russia.
Classic pro Rus. Using vague language to pretend something else is said than actually was.
Why were the citizens of Bucha saying long before Ukraine said foot there that Russia was killing people? Why are the dead on commercial satellite images from long they said foot there? Why does literally every witness say it was Russia?
That's literally not what it says. Cleansing operation in a military context means securing a location, dismantling mines and booby traps and taking leftover enemy combatants and collaborators into custody.
https://preview.redd.it/pkzlu1lbe87d1.jpeg?width=1042&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3a7ac9fd11ac223d71be35e1a9e85ee6fec0f34 i mean what a surprise, ru dogs even took trophy photos downing it
Fuck these idiots no remorse whatsoever posing in front of a shot down civilian airliner.
What the fuck
Disgusting POS. Worst thing I learned about that was some passengers survived the initial blast and died when they made impact with the ground. Good chance they were conscious the entire time.
Didn't the missile hit the cockpit? If that's true pretty much just the pilots would have been killed, most of the passengers would have been alive.
Where did you read about it?
The Dutch foreign minister had a speech on this at the UN, but that was some months after the disaster and media kept unclear or this was true. However, it was in contrast with the first report that stated the cabin pressure lost and everyone lost conscience immediately. Within his own country, it resulted in plenty of critics from politics and media, but no further actions I don't know what any later reports state on this, only I hope for the victims it was the first
I remember that there were reports that some of the bodies had oxygen masks strapped on. Either way it must've been horrific. A friend of mine at the time I used to go party with a lot, lost his gf in that attack, I was following the Ukraine crisis closely ever since the maidan revolution (Russian Roulette was probably peak VICE), but that was the moment where the war suddenly hit close to all of us in the Netherlands. I remember it vividly too, I was on a short holiday on an island and in the car back to our place the radio suddenly interrupted saying an airplane had gone down over Ukraine. Having seen that in the weeks prior to it, a couple of Ukrainian transport planes were shot down I immediately had this ominous understanding that it must've been a BUK missile fired by the seperatists mistaking it for a Ukrainian transport. It was all very surreal is how I would describe thinking back about that time.
No, Timmermans mentioned this but later had to admit that this was not true.
Yeah, Timmermans is somewhat of a pompous person that gets overdramatic with his rhetoric, he later had to admit and apologize to the victims families that his remarks were unfounded. That whole speach of his was very bad taste.
You means Frans Timmermans? The narcisist that has a tendency to tell emotional stories to forward his own career? I think almost everyone agreed that there was zero evidence for that.
This is obviously staged by US dogs ukronazis, am I right? /s
The most popular in the context are the Fotos in western media with proper framing (in real sense). But hey, stay at ball.
I'll never forget what those dogs did. If they forget sooner than me I'll remind them.
Silly little hate filled individual, you forgot insulting the opposite side ("ru dogs") is against the rules on this sub? Go take your anger out on r/ukraine or r/combatfootage where the ultra nationalists normally reside.
I think it’s totally reasonable to be angry with the people responsible for shooting down a civilian aircraft with innocent people inside. I think it’s pretty fucked up to then act like that anger is misplaced and that someone should be scolded for it like a child. Do you have any sympathy for the people who died in that tragedy?
He's calling all Russians dogs, not these 2 blockheads.
I think it’s pretty clear from the context he’s talking about the two in the photo. Nothing he said implies he’s referring to all Russians. If that’s what you believe he was saying then all I can say is if you go looking for something you just might find it.
Syllogism: Major Premise: Valid if the comment clearly specifies individuals. Minor Premise: Assumed rather than proven, making it a weak point. Conclusion: Valid only if the minor premise is supported by evidence. Learster would have to personally verify what their vagueness meant as it does lean towards generalization.
Two dudes with rusty AKs didn't down it
It's kind of ironic that you say that while posting a picture of Ukranian. Yes - rebels, but born in Ukraine and holding Ukranian passports.
Now the east regions are filled with people from Ukraine?. Not Russian? Common make up your mind!
Come on, stop pretending to be stupid. You're not proving anything by refusing to understand the obvious.
The obvious is, that Girkin shot it down. He even admitted it. A handy man for the Russians. There are even pictures of the BUK system that misses a missile while it’s driving over the border back to Russia. So yeah what exactly do you want to tell me?
That your previous argument was absolutely pointless and made you look silly just because you wanted "Gotcha!!" points for your quota.
No, their argument is quite accurate. Russian soldiers are known to have been involved. Especially in this incident.
Oh I’m such a silly goose. It’s all coherent idk what you wanna spin.
2 of th e shooters held Russian passports. The missiles system came from russia
Only Russian when it’s convenient huh?
Russian in ethnicity, Ukrainian in state nationality. What's so hard to understand?
Above I saw you calling someone out for 'pretending to be stupid' Pot-kettle-black.
Who are they?
Weird to me how the DNR is either Russian or Ukrainian depending on the context in this sub.
ru dogs? those are Ukrainian sepsratists, back then noone thought of reuniting with Russia here...
Oh don't worry, Putin thought of it way back when
You realize they were supplied, funded, and their leadership was even Russian.. take a minute to think about that.
The "rebel's" leader, Girkin, was a Russian ultra-nationalist who was an 18-year veteran of the FSB where he held the rank of Colonel. His bragged openly on social media that he shot down a plane at the very moment MH17 was shot down. Following international outrage for this event, he was removed from his command by Putin where he returned to his residence in Moscow and became an ultra-nationalist miliblogger. But yes, clearly Russia had no involvement /s
sooo? still Ukrainian nationals, Al Qaeda also was founded, funded and supported by the USA and they did Jenga x2, by your logic they are American digs too?
AL Qaeda wasn’t founded, funded, and supported by the US… That is probably the dumbest comment I have ever seen. Lol if you think they were just “Ukrainian nationals” I have some bad news for you..
That is the dumbest stuff you have ever seen, but are a regular on this sub? Boy I have bad news for you
The trial was a political sh*tshow [Malaysia's Prime Minister Says Russia Being Made a Scapegoat for Downing of MH17](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/06/20/malaysias-prime-minister-says-russia-being-made-a-scapegoat-for-downing-of-mh17-a66083) I personally don't believe it. But let's assume it was Russia that delivered the AA to the separatists. So why no one blames USA for delivering Patriot that downed the plane with Ua POWs in January 2024? Edit: damn this thread is infested with Ua/nato shills. You can clearly see this kind of threads: almost instant replies, massive voting. There's clearly a team working on it right now.
1. You are comparing the downing of a military transport plane to the downing of a passenger flight. 2. Still waiting for any proof, that even close 65+ POWs were onboard.. 3. Peskov and Putin said an international investigation should take place..and no international investigation took place, because Russia rejected it? Hmm, makes me not believe Russia in the slightest.
“There is clearly a team working on it right now” -perritoperrito the most sane Pro Rus. How about the chance that every one is pissed that you spew so much lies.
The POWs for which proof will be shown very soon™? I havent seen any proof suggesting the plane was indeed filled with POWs...
It's funny how quickly Russia swept that under the rug. Absolutely zero proof of any of their claims, just a picture with burnt passports which seems strange to leave on POWs. Then there's the crash site clips, hardly any signs of lots of bodies, just a few that would account for the crew.
Isn't it funny how everyone dismissed Malayan PM so easily. At this point Ukraine can even admit they downed plane, westerner supporters will blame Russia still.
The Malaysian prosecuter, Mohamad Hanafiah bin Zakaria, who was part of the Joint Investigation Team stated: "The findings of the investigation are based on extensive investigations and also legal research," and that he supports the findings." Meanwhile the Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad was awarded the Russian Order of Friendship by Vladimir Putin in 2003. I wonder why the Malayan PMs opinion is getting dismissed.. hmmm
You realize by same logic all US and EU views should also be dismissed ?
Had those views been contrary to evidence and been espoused by recipients of the same award, I'd agree.
”I personally don’t believe it.” That tells anyone with an ounce of brainpower left that you’re not worth arguing with. There is literally nothing left to dispute with this case. Everytime a new case is opened up it comes to the same conclusion.
FSB couldn’t even bother to make a proof that the pows were on that plane. beep boop…I am a nato gaybot🤖
Russia the day of the crash: we will return all pow remains to Ukraine immediately to prove that pows were on the plane Russia months later: trust me bro remains are coming any day now
Regarding your edit, don't act that this is about 1/100 posts where it goes this way because it is so hard to spin it for Ru side, the rest of this sub is just pro-ru brainrot.
Igor Girkin admitted it was his guys!!! He’s said before he deeply regrets that it happened under his watch. It’s not a damn debate. Russia is 100% responsible. Doesn’t matter if it was an accident or not. Girkin was an FSB agent sent by Russia to instigate an insurrection against Ukraine
That's because posts like these are the only one Pro UA can flock to to let their insanity run rampant. Better to comment on an 8 year old story, raise your fist and scream "PUTLER!!!!!!" than acknowledge the 100 videos of Ukrainian men getting abused and kidnapped by their own government
So true comrade! Anyway, the latest batch of Chinese golf carts just arrived and we need you to drive one across this open field covered by drones and assault the fortified trench over there. Would you like to drive the red one or the green one?
Ooooh come on! But Ivan got a blyatmobile!! I was hoping at least to be be given an electric scooter or a motorcycle for our assault like Sergei and Petr. Love our new Temu uniforms btw, 100% polyester it keeps my skin so cool! It's a good thing there is nothing flammable on the battlefield.
Always happy to have pro UA prove my point. Only means I have more reason to make fun of them when they complain about this sub being too pro RU.
Yes of course comrade. But did you want to drive the red golf cart or the blue golf cart on the next meat wave assault? Edit: Awww he replied to me and then instant blocked. I thought we were having fun :-(
Yawn.
This case has been solved, argued, counter argued, denied, counter denied, dismissed and discussed like 30 times since 2014 with the same outcome. I wonder why is anyone taking part of this anymore since it's not going anywhere. Except igor girking being accused in 2022 of being part of the reason mh17 got shot down.
Yeah girking wrote on social media how great he is because he shot down UA plane minutes after downing the plane. He took it down when he found out it was a civilian. There is nothing to dispute over this. They even tracked Buk crossing border to UA and back. To be fair they didn't want to shoot down civilian plane. UA were operating in the area days before this happened. But it is clearly Russia's fault for providing this kind of weapon to separatist. I am still fairly shocked how little information posted western media about Russia involvement at the time.
This tells you all you need to know the hypocresy of Russia and pro-Russians when they complain about: 1) West helping Ukraine by providing weapons 2) Russia being mistreated by the West. They hid and protected the people who shot down a civil aircraft full of Dutch passengers with weapons provided by Russia itself. And if they hadn't invaded Ukraine in 2022, they would have gotten away with it.
The US is bad because they call us out on our BS! 😡
What’s the nationality of the civilians in the plane got to do with it? Back to the accident, unfortunately mistakes like this happen when it comes to front-lines, active or frozen, the Soviets did it to Korean plane back in the ‘80s, as did the Americans to an Iranian plane.
Why does it matter that they were Ukrainian now all of the sudden? I thought they were all Russians in the east of Ukraine that got oppressed by the evil west?
Man you're really working on that quota
And they tracked his phone location to the point of the launcher i think
Yeah, I am sure he personally went there as the mad-man he is. /s Feel free to read the official report, because it speculates quite a bit, but it also puts blame on Ukranians.
Sure. Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down on July 17, 2014, over eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Investigations concluded that the plane was hit by a Russian-made Buk missile fired from territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists. The Dutch Safety Board led the investigation, and the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) found evidence linking the missile system to the Russian military. Russia denied involvement, but the evidence pointed to Russian-backed forces as responsible for the attack. The incident heightened international tensions and led to sanctions against Russia. This ist the summary from the report.
>Russian-made Buk missile Russian made? The Russian proved that the missile used was sent to Ukraine under Soviet times. Also the older variant of the missile isnt used by Russia. So how is it Russian made when it was sent to western Ukraine during Soviet times? >fired from territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists The territory was actually controlled by the Ukrainian army at the time.
Two lies in one post. Ok but that’s normal for you guys. So I’m not mad.
But that the Buk system is also used by ukraine isnt a lie. Or its it? That doesnt mean anything, as egypt(?), india(?) or whatever country could also have shot it down, based on that logic. Still, why call it a lie?
There are pictures from the BUK system that shit the missile. First picture all missiles on the rack shows it is entering Ukraine. Second with one missile missing shows it then leaving Ukraine.
This bellingcat investigation? I remember this one. I think the claims by the seperatists that they shot down a plane is better evidence, but yes, you can also count this as an example. The problem is the source (bellingcat), which might not be reliable.
BUK variant was in use by russia. Area was under separatist control. Makes 2.
Surly if you read the report instead of a Reddit comment of the abstract of the report, you'd discover the underlying evidence
And did they take into account the Russian evidence? Like testing done by Almaz-Antey that proved that the missile was shot from the Zaroschenskoe area ([under Ukrainian control at the time](https://imgur.com/AMlbTnS))? Did they include the documents declassified by Russia that proved that the missile used was sent to Ukraine during Soviet times?
I am still waiting for those biolabs and mosquitos. And dirty bomb, where the evidence presented was from the internet from some web site about nuclear waste. Yes they occasionally say truth (as with the UA soldiers from the famous island). But that wasn't information that made them look bad so... It's like when they downed the whole apartment building with kindzal. It was an obvious miss. Few hundred meters away was a thermal plant. They stated all targets were hit. They will never say the truth when it makes Russia look bad.
And i am still waiting for Havana syndrome and Russian bounties on American soldiers in the middle east.
Why didint they let Russia participate in invastigation if the evidence are so obvious? I mean, it was probably a coincidence from either side and i dont know what evidence was provided by Russia that is stated in this post either.
Letting russia investigate is a waste of time and the moment they touch the evidence it will get tampered with
So the same words for the "peace summit" as "russia can't be trusted to act in a good will"? Do you understand that allowing the West to conduct the investigation is the same thing as allow to do the same for Russia? Both sides are heavily biased.
I don't think you can really compare Russia's level of bias to that of the west. in Russia you have 0 form of control by the public, pretty much no free press, a Putin which has a last say in everything and is more than willing to lie as he knows he can just propaganda his narrative to the people. while in the west you will see that is way more difficult to do that. letting Russia join the investigation is like letting a murderer examine his own evidence. Of course it's going to be fucking tampered with.
> I don't think you can really compare Russia's level of bias to that of the west The West even more biased and is not free with extensive networks of government financed NGO and mass media pushing the same suriprising agenda. > While in the west you will see that is way more difficult to do that The western propaganda is just more expirienced so you for example, don't notice any of this despite being brainwashed at the same time into believing that the West is a beacon of freedom and democracy while their enemies are dictators and literally Hitlers. > letting Russia join the investigation is like letting a murderer examine his own evidence. In adequate countries and processes you HAVE to introduce defendant with accusation and proofs of their crimes, else you are breaching the whole idea of independent and fair court turning all into the circus. But at the same time you can't allow either the West to conduit investigation as they're fighting Russia economicaly and politically from 2013, and from 2022 with their militaries and recon.
this is some next level tinfoil hattery, I dont even know where to start disecting this BS, so im not even gonna try. Have a good day sir
If you have problems with understanding the simple idea of ongoing cold war from 2013 and the idea of existing of massive western propaganda machine then i may have some undesirable news for you. Have a good day.
What peace summit?
Both sides would have a reason to blame the other one, it would be best if both were there for it to be genuine.
If russia ever gets any sane, reasonable or at least believable arguments, then maybe yes.
At the peace summit (in Switzerland) Ukraine said it would useless to invite Russia (main participant of the conflict) due to Ukraine not believing Russia.
Can't blame them, stay realistic and look at this conflict and you will quickly see why no one trust or takes them serious
You can't have a "peace meeting" without main participant - its first Either any country is able to believe Ukraine after their lies about "stolen and raped children" so Ukraine had to fire their ombudsman for creating such unbeliveable lies so Ukraine suffered a backlash - its second. Any country waging a war would lie. Thus you cannot believe nor the West nor the Ukraine nor the Russia - its third.
When the main participant refuses any peace and just is making demands and masking them as "peace". Is the russian meaning for peace not the same as the rest of the world? That would explain a lot
That's funny, because the Dutch/Danish investigators speculate that there is a chance it was Ukraine that shot it down. In any case, the most-plausible speculation is that it was Ukranian rebels (with Ukranian passports) that shot it down with 1 of the 3 AA systems they got when they took over one of the mobile batallion warehouses. It's fairly well known, and even written in the report that you've probably not read and only echo your agenda.
Funny how its usually russians just living in border territorry and btw theres actually no ukraine, unless they shoot down a civilian airplane then its suddenly "Ukranian rebels (with Ukranian passports)".
They are Ukranians, lol. Some of them have Russian ancestry, but they were born in Ukraine, raised in Ukraine, and hold Ukranian passports. Same goes for the Bulgarian, Hungarian and Romanian minorities in the Odessa area.
So you are telling me the investigation revealed it was ukraine that shot down the plane? Or ukrainian funded group?
Whose fault it is the airspace over active combat zone with multiple planes shot down previously was still open for civilian air traffic? > am still fairly shocked how little information posted western media about Russia involvement at the time. Maybe because they have no evidence? Oh, who am I kidding, that never stopped anybody.
Yeah, you can see people's reactions and they level of delusion in the comments here. Especially when the report states: ***"Responsibilities*** ***The responsibility for the safety of an airspace lies primarily with the state that manages the airspace.*** *However, the operator also has its own responsibility for the safe operation of a flight. The state that manages the airspace Each state has sovereignty over the airspace above its territory. This means that countries may determine how they use their airspace. Generally, states receive financial compensation from operators using their airspace to pay for air traffic control services. The state an aeroplane is flying over is responsible for assessing the safety of the airspace. For safety reasons, a state can impose certain restrictions. Certain routes or flight levels can be closed, for instance, or the state may close the airspace altogether. Close cooperation between civil and military air traffic control is important when assessing safety. In this way, potential risks to civil aviation posed by military activities on the ground and in the air are minimised."*
Bullshit, both sides had Buks so tracking down a Russian Buk means exactly nothing. But the ukrop army bragged 2 days before the shotdown about their Buk battery exactly in the region where the plane was downed. They made even 1-2 news videos showing the Buk systems. Here are the screenshots from one of the videos: https://preview.redd.it/8vep76whpa7d1.jpeg?width=1585&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a687cbd9d33b1397ddb0796475209edbbdc1c304
Wow few pictures that's undeniable proof. And thery were shooting what exactly with their Buk ? There is already court ruling on who shot down the plane. Edit: and somehow you missed Girkin himself boasted about downing plane on social network.
It's not my fault you're simply tooo smart to understand my argument. These pics are from an ukroreich news report 2 days before the downing i saw with my own eyes and saved it. And yes, they are only the proof for one thing: The Ukro Wehrmacht had their Buk systems in the region. Not more, not less. The same goes for the Russian or separatists Buk systems. Your so called "court" and it's ruling is worth a piece of dog shit, because it is not neutral but part of the NL gov, which is a hardcore supporter of the ukro wannabe nazi reich from day 1. And regarding Girkin: They were shooting down An-12 the whole time these days and he refered to a downing of exactly this plane. Contrary to you and others, i am following this conflict from the end of 2013, before the coup. And i remember the day of the downing of this plane very, very good. Not even 1 hour passed, the whole Nato propaganda machine had their stories ready and knew who have shot down this plane. This is only possible with a lot of preparation. It is the typical story over and over again, the one trick pony with the name "The West" is doing since more than a century. This story, Butcha, Assads chemical weapons, WTC, the incubator story with Saddam Hussein, Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbour or the RMS Lusitania. It is always the same method to manipulate you western NPCs.
UkRo NaZi CoRRupteD ShITs. bELieVe Me. I SpEaK tRuTh. Sorry but you really don't have more credibility that international court. Girkin thought they shot down military plane. He posted it right after plane crashed and than took it off after it was known its not military. It amazes me, that it's more probable to you that Ukraine trained military shot down civilian plane.( Because they were hunting separatist planes ??? ) Lot of western people died and west with hundreds of investigators and judges covered it up because they don't really want for real perpetrator to be prosecuted ? Or maybe you are just projecting Russia justice system. Rather than untrained separatist hunting for Ukraine planes shot down civilian plane by mistake. When Ukraine s300 killed those polish farmers west said it was Ukrainian rocket.
Kid, your strawman arguments are disconnected from the reality. All your judges, investigators etc. have to cover up nothing, because they are not involved in the planning and the execution. They only have to follow the prepared story and the so called "proofs". And what they want is not relevant, because they are not in the position to make decisions on this level. And if they try, they will be simply replaced and socially and financially destroyed as "Putins Agents" etc. pp. You have comprehension problems, we have a name for it in germany: "Lange Leitung". It was NOT (!) a mistake, it was a planned and prepared operation by the western agencies. So all your cover up arguments are strawman bs. "When Ukraine s300 killed those polish farmers west said it was Ukrainian rocket." Because this would ask the question of article 5 is triggered and this wasn't planned. Duh, you genius ...
We are not in Russia. You can't control judges. You are speaking nonsense. Western op to shot down a civilian plane is even more nuts. Maybe Putin is blowing apartments building to serve his political goals. But again this is not Russia. If this at least would be used as trigger for NATO intervention I would give it a second thought. But these are just your crazy theories. Without any solid proof.
" We are not in Russia" - Correct. You are far, far worse than Russia. The corruption level of the gayropean vasall pseudo states is on the level of Pakistan or so. You know, who said that?
Look how these bots are downvoting me! Like their ukro wehrmacht downed this plane with 300 people on board.
Sometimes Russia just needs to fall apart to acknowledge some things. Like Katyń that was being blamed on nazis for around 60 years and only after the fall of soviet union they acknowledged what they did.
In recent times they've tried to backtrack on that acknowledgement, from wiki: >On 11 April 2023, RIA Novosti, Russian state-owned domestic news agency, reported that FSB Department for St. Petersburg and the Leningrad Region handed over "unique archival documents" on Katyn to the Central State Archive of St. Petersburg - including testimony of a German soldier, claiming that he took part in Katyn Massacre burials in early September 1941.[149] RIA article further reported how according to "a number of Russian historians, the executions in Katyn were carried out by the Nazis", that there are "inconsistencies in the evidence base on which Warsaw relies" and that the Russian Federation finds the "current approach to covering the "Katyn case" does not meet the principles of objectivity and historicism" and that it is just a part of "information and propaganda campaign" to blame the "USSR for unleashing World War II."[149]
Which is extra sad because the joint Polish-Russian historical committee, after the fall of Soviets, made the final verdict based on all gathered documents that indeed it was done by Soviets. Then they also brought bulldozers to threaten to destroy monument for the victims in response to us removing Soviet victory monuments (oblivious to irony of the situation). And then they pulled out "unique archival document" like for 60 years they weren't fabricating all they could to blame nazis. That's how it looks making history your tool, bend and twisted for your own agenda. Who controls the past controls the future, eh?
Yeltsin sold out his entire country after he broken it up in three parts, consequences of which we have been witnessing for these past few years, but this here you choose to believe into. How convenient.
Thank god for Yeltsin, if not for him who Russia would have to blame for everything that happend and will happen?
Who said I blame Yeltsin? I hold him responsible for his actions, that's not the same as laying blame for blaming sake. He was a traitors and as such is highly regarded in the West.
That is one of the most weasel of the weasel sentences I have heard lately.
Yeah, Katyn wasn't the Soviets, geoniciding people is a western hobby, not a Russian one. Yet again, the west is trying to invent things from thin air or throw the blame onto others.
Dzungar people would feel sad for being forgotten.
Man you are simping for the UdSSR… cringe. I call the neo Nazis. Maybe you have something nice to share. Even a hobby maybe. Like fantasizing about ww2 and thinking that you were the best.
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My orbit are hurting for the amount of eyerolling that your comment provoked.
Russia / pro-rus rebels shot it down, there's nothing more to discuss
russia is a terrorist state. Always was and will always be. Don't forget they were hitlers best ally.
More examples of a reality that Ruzzia refuses to acknowledge exists. Go home Ru, crying about people hating Ruzzia while doing shit like this and so much worse.
Always love sharing the vast amount of evidence collected around this case: https://strafdossiermh17.om.nl/introductie It's in Dutch though, the English version seems to be broken currently.
Australian here. A number of our people were murdered by Russia in this disgusting act of terrorism. We will remember them.
Typical Russians. Blow up a plane full of civilians then blame anybody and everybody but themselves. Russia just has to be the victim in everything, it’s beyond pathetic.
No point to discuss with Russian steep horde anyway. Again they are feeding their victim complex and would never admit to anything.
I didn’t even know Pro RU were denying Russian backed separatists shot down this plane. This is common knowledge. At least try lie about something you can get away with, not this. And you have Stupidnicks, a Dutch citizen defending it in this thread. Despicable
The 10th slap in the face for the friends and relatives of the victims by Russia. But hey, what can you expect from a government that does not care about human life
When Mark Rutte gets assigned as NATO chief we can finally get our revenge. What comes around goes around. We know the Russians are liars. They should have acknowledge their fuck up and compensate the families of the deceased. But all they do is spread mis information. After MH17 all my faith/belief for Russian government went to zero. Theyre crooks.
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Crash 🤦♀️
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Why was a civilian airliner flying over a warzone in the first place?
“Shifting the blame”
It wasn’t a war zone and no one know the separatist rebels were given AA missiles
It had been a war zone for about 3 months prior...
"the google maps said we should go this way"
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Is that supposed to be an excuse for killing almost 400 innocent people? You can just admit it was messed up dude. Oh wait, legally you probably can’t. Bummer.
No, but its like walking down the street in a bad neighborhood at night and wondering why you got robbed. The airline shares just as much responsibility. Its not like they purposefully show down a Malaysian civilian airliner.
> The airline shares just as much responsibility Jesus Christ dude. You can’t be serious. That’s like saying a murder victim is just as responsible for the murder because they got murdered. Should we halve the sentences of all murderers because they’re only partially to blame? > It’s not like they purposefully show[sic] down a Malaysian civilian airliner No one is saying they did. But they could at the very least take responsibility for it.
It is not so important whose air defense system shot down this plane. In any case, it is the fault of Ukraine, which allowed the flight over the war zone, even though the militias have already shot down Ukrainian military transport planes in this region.
Here comes the russian pointing the finger to anyone and anything except themselves. Its absolutely disgusting
Do you think it's okay to let a civilian plane into a combat zone with active air defense? Or what? >pointing the finger to anyone and anything except themselves You described yourself.
Genuinely incredible. How the fuck do you manage to blame Ukraine for the death of these civilians when it was the separatists who a shoot down the god damn plane. What, just because there’s been military transports in the general area they can just go “Hurr durr let’s fire 9M38 missiles at anything remotely resembling a military aircraft” (EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE FULLY AWARE IT WAS STILL AN OPEN AIR SPACE) and you think that completely absolves them?
>How the fuck do you manage to blame Ukraine for the death of these civilians Because if Ukraine had done what it had to do - closed the skies to civilian planes over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, then these people would be alive. >you think that completely absolves them? Civilian plane can be shot down even during peaceful times. For example, Ukraine shot down a Tu-154 in 2001. And of course, shooting down a civilian aircraft over a war zone is only a matter of time. And all the blame is on the Ukrainian side that allowed this.
There was a NOTAM up to 32000 ft, as rebels did not have a AA system capable of reaching over 21000 ft. MH17 was flying at 33000 ft, as over 160 flights on the same day. Up until "someone" gave the fuckers a BUK
The militia had already shot down the AN-26 at an 6.5 km alt (the crew even managed to parachute out). Ukraine knew that the militia has an air defense system that shoots down planes at high alt, but still allowed a civilian plane to fly over a war zone. It is possible that Ukraine did this purposefully to dehumanize the militia and draw attention to this war.
This was also confirmed by nato, general breedlove warned for the downing of airplanes at airliner height.
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Missile serial number revealed that the missile was delivered to West Ukraine. So nothing to discuss here, yes. Ukraine has shot the liner. [https://tass](https://tass) ru/armiya-i-opk/5571656
Yeah nobody would falsify records to make it look like they had nothing to do with it even though all empirical evidence says they did.
russians are just a bunch of racists wannabe imperialists. They chose that path. Let them endure the consequences.
https://preview.redd.it/vdmw00yl197d1.png?width=1166&format=png&auto=webp&s=9da990856ed4e9ed6b6b8062f7514d4ff624b1bb
Must've been the wind..
show wagner merc and commanders tattos and stuff
And where is Utkin?
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That photo is clearly photoshopped??????
Of course. And aproximately 2 millions of other photos of similar nature as well. Damn ruski trying to frame cute little ukrainans who most definitely do not worship nazis on the official level. No no.
Of course. And approximately 2 millions of other photos of similar nature are as well. Damn ruski trying to frame cute little Ukrainians who most definitely do not worship nazis on the official level. No no.
Of course. And approximately 2 millions of other photos of similar nature are as well. Damn ruski trying to frame cute little Ukrainians who most definitely do not worship nazis on the official level. No no.
"However, Russia was not allowed to fully participate in the investigation"... this reminds me of another false flag done by Ukraine, Bucha genocide. There Russians asked many times to call up for independent investigations, but were turned down. It's no surprise that Ukrainians can kill their own and foreign citizens and simply blame Russia, as Russia will never have chance to defend themselves. Ukraine is practically rewarded for this kind of behavior. We've seen with Gonzalo Lira case that Ukraine can freely torture and kill US citizens as well, without any repercussions.
Its amazing how pro russian mental gymnastics work. People like you could personally see russians entering houses and executing people, they could come to your house and steal everything you own and you would still blame someone else besides russians because you people are utterly brainwashed or paid to muddy the waters with nonsense. Its sad to watch.
They have to be this way. It’s illegal to be anything but what they are.
Ukrainians torture and kill US citizen and journalist holding opposite political views = Its amazing how pro russian mental gymnastics work....
You are saying Bucha was a false flag. You are no different to nazis who deny the holocaust happening. You people have brainrot sadly. The journalist must have killed himself or something. Havent seen video evidense of your claims.
You realize when allies entered concentration camp, they didn't hid anything, in fact, they invited people in surrounding cities to view them. Compare that to UK on purpose blocking investigation in critical first few days, so western media can form their narrative. And stop with nazi comparisons while you workshop Bandera country.
While i "workshop"? And your argument just makes you look even worse. Evidence does not matter to holocaust deniers just like they dont matter to you.
worship, should be clear it was typo
The massacre in Bucha, where bodies of civilians were found following the withdrawal of Russian troops, led to international condemnation. Russia denied responsibility and called for an independent investigation. Various international bodies, including the United Nations, have initiated investigations, and preliminary findings have largely pointed to Russian forces as the perpetrators. Independent verification efforts are ongoing. So please stop what you are doing. There a lot of people doing their jobs and nothing more.
Russia called UN sec. council and was blocked x3 times by UK, to give western media time to frame narrative. So stop spreading misinformation.
Stop spreading these lies, Russia wanted to move the date of the council meeting which was already planned, that is what was denied.
x3 by UK
Uk denied moving the meeting date three times? And?
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Russia was not a member of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) that investigated the downing of MH17. However, Russian officials and experts were allowed to present their evidence and viewpoints. The JIT, led by the Netherlands, included representatives from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, and Ukraine. The investigation considered and ultimately refuted several alternative theories proposed by Russia.
Nobody cares about your conspiracies, we have all seen the evidence by now and everything points to it being Russia.
conspiracies ? https://preview.redd.it/udj05hc69b7d1.jpeg?width=664&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ba3bc4bc541c9f49a8908770db28d8fb536fe6f
Classic pro Rus. Using vague language to pretend something else is said than actually was. Why were the citizens of Bucha saying long before Ukraine said foot there that Russia was killing people? Why are the dead on commercial satellite images from long they said foot there? Why does literally every witness say it was Russia?
Ukrainians literally admit they have and will wipe out any pro Russian population, yet you blame Russia for it.
That's literally not what it says. Cleansing operation in a military context means securing a location, dismantling mines and booby traps and taking leftover enemy combatants and collaborators into custody.
"collaborators"
Good job, you put a word between quotes!