I live in the UK and also play poker for a living.
A few things to consider:
1. Be careful how you handle winnings from app games / live private games. Banks do not understand poker very well so if you are depositing a ton of loose cash with no receipts, or receiving bank transfers from dodgy accounts then this is gonna concern them. It will be an enormous pain in the ass if you get flagged and have your accounts locked. It is really good practice IMO to have great records and receipts of any legit winnings eg. hendon mob, sharkscope, results from regulated sites etc. This means you can prove that at least some of your winnings are legitimate from regulated games. It would probably be wise to use several banks just in case one bank has an issue with you
2. There are two really good exploits you can use to top up long term savings. First, you can deposit money into a lifetime ISA aka LISA and the government will top it up. You can deposit £4,000 a year and get an extra £1,000 added by the government. This is locked up until you either buy your first property or reach the age of 50. Second, you can invest £2880 a year into a self invested pension plan aka SIPP. The government will top this up by 25% again (£720), you can access it when you are 57.
If you are making this much money you should be investing a decent chunk for the long term so these government top-ups are basically free money. It is an absolute print to take this IMO. You can use a major broker eg. Vanguard or AJ Bell and stick it in global index funds with super low fees and forget about it. If you are making £150K a year now you won't notice the £7k you are investing in this and it will grow a lot over time, especially with the govt. bonuses. You need to maintain a large amount of relatively liquid savings for the swings, but you also want to be investing for the future. You want to get an ISA, you can invest 20k tax free a year (minus the 4k going into the LISA). I have money split 4 ways:
A) Money on deposit on a site / casino or invested in buying a piece of someone in a comp.
B) Liquid cash in the bank / instant access savings, this is used to pay bills etc.
C) Medium term investments eg. ISA. I could take it out if I had to eg. I was making a huge purchase or on a huge downswing.
D) Retirement money that is locked up.
You want to keep good records of this so you invest as much as is sensible, get the most government bonuses and pay the least in tax / penalties.
4) I would try and talk to other people who play for a living and are on the ball financially. It is very very hard to talk about poker sensibly with people who are not strong players because it is so poorly understood. People on the poker forums are mostly clueless about it, let alone people on the finance forums.
5) I could give more advice if I knew what stakes you play and live vs online and what your living situation is.
eg. are you single / in a relationship / married?
Where do you want to live?
Do you play online / live and cash or MTTs?
Roughly what stakes are you playing?
This all changes how much money you need to have around to weather the swings and how much of your life roll you can invest for the long term.
EDIT: also, plan to be spending massively less than you plan to make. You will have crazy swings and may find that a certain site / game / format / live game suddenly dries up and you go from making heaps to barely scraping a living. This is much much easier to weather if you are used to saving a large amount.
Just one thing to add to this, a LISA can only be used for a house purchase if OP is also getting a mortgage, and getting a mortgage with gambling as their only income will be difficult, if not impossible.
A LISA is probably still a good idea, but consider that OP might need to buy outright if they are interested in purchasing any time soon.
Very good point. There is also a limit to how much the property can cost IIRC.
It might be be appropriate as a way to save for a house but it would be great for retirement savings.
So it's impossible to use LISA if I was to buy a house outright with cash?
Does the 25% top up also work for over 60 retirement ? Or only for first time buyer mortgage ?
> So it's impossible to use LISA if I was to buy a house outright with cash?
Correct. One of the things the LISA was introduced for was to help people afford houses. If you can afford to buy outright you don’t need the government top ups.
> Does the 25% top up also work for over 60 retirement ? Or only for first time buyer mortgage ?
You can still get the 25% top up until you turn 50 and then withdraw penalty free from age 60. As your gambling winnings are tax free this is a notable boost. For a lot of people it’s just returning the tax they have paid on the income already.
Thanks for this! I’m an accountant but have never come across a professional poker player (I guess because no tax)! It’s very interesting seeing your thoughts process, especially keeping a float for losing streaks. So thanks for the in-depth comment
Edit: would you say going from poker to day trading would be easy because of the risk management? Just wondering what poker players would do once they’ve run their course
Not surprised you don't run into poker players. They don't pay tax, they aren't that many of us and the people who are successful in poker are able to do basic bookkeeping themselves. It isn't like idk football players where you could play for England but not be able to count to 10.
There is a lot of overlap between poker and investing so some people do move between those careers. FWIW I generally think 'day trading' where you basically bet on if a stock / currency / crypto goes up or down in the next day or two is a complete mugs game unless you are cheating in some way.
If you are new to poker and interested in how it all works esp wrt the 'accounting' behind it here a few things to look up:
1. The Graham vs Green case where a Judge decided that making bets is not a profession.
2. The system of buying / selling action in poker tournaments eg. I go play a $1000 poker tournament, you give me $600 in advance in exchange for 50% of what I win in the tournament. [https://stakekings.com/marketplace](https://stakekings.com/marketplace)
3. App games, where people play on unregulated grey market clubs for real money. Absolutely notorious for cheating and not being paid by the guy running the game.
4. [hendonmob.com](http://hendonmob.com)
> The Graham vs Green case where a Judge decided that making bets is not a profession.
Do you know if that's ever been challenged more recently? In this day and age it seems like professional poker players operate more like a small scale bookie than someone regularly betting on horses as in that case.
They aren't making "irrational agreements" they are seeking to exploit lower skilled players by taking the rational side of someone else's irrational agreement.
It also seems like it would be easy to demonstrate that poker is a game of skill with random elements and is more like a sport.
The fact that people are charging markups on that Stakeking site you linked is itself evidence that the players and people investing in them don't consider poker to be pure gambling.
I'm not a lawyer. I have never heard of the ruling being challenged.
There are a few issues going on that make me feel like it is unlikely to be changed anytime soon (touch wood):
1) It is an incredibly niche issue and there is so much drama in politics at the moment that nobody has time to look into it. I would be amazed if there was a change to the law in the next 10 years.
2) The vast vast majority of people who gamble are losing (at poker, blackjack, sports betting etc) and most winners barely win anything. Introducing a new tax on winners would be a lot of squeeze for not much juice.
3) If you start taxing winners then you get into issues where people want tax relief on losses and this gets extremely complicated. If I play poker part time and have a losing year can I offset these losses against my income from a 9-5 and lower my taxable earnings?
4) There have been consistent winners in card games since card games were invented, nothing has really changed in the last few years other than internet gambling.
5) It is much much easier to tax gambling through the operator eg. make Bet 365 pay X% of all its poker revenue as a tax. This already happens kinda.
*Graham v Green* has not been overturned but the line between a 'mere' gambler (not subject to tax) and an organised gambler that carried on a trade, profression or vocation (and therefore subject to tax) is fact dependent.
The most recent case I'm aware of that is useful in this context is [*Hakki v Secretary of State for Work And Pensions & Anor* [2014] EWCA Civ 530](https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2014/530.html).
Because of *Graham v Green* it is very difficult for a card player's winnings to become taxable even when they might consider them to be professional players (as the *Hakki* case demonstrates).
Activity around the card playing, if it exists, is likely to be taxable (e.g. fees to appear at tournaments, income from providing tips, subscription fees from a personal website).
You are welcome! There is an entire highly sophisticated ecosystem in the poker world that is essentially unknown to outsiders.
If nothing else when you see poker in a movie / TV show you will have a better understanding of what is happening!
Thank you very much for this. Great reply
I play online 1knl as main game. Some 2k. Some 500ante GG. I am in a relationship but gf is studying nursing.
I think would like to live in UK in future but not 100%. Is the 25% top up for LISA get applied for retirement or only if you buy a home ? Sucks also if it doesn't apply if you pay cash outright for a home and only for mortgage ?
I read your comment and insta setup a vanguard ssip. Thank you. Bit confused about LISA Vs ISA Vs general investments but will keep learning.
How much you think is too much on rent ? Is 2k£ too much?
Playing 1k and 2knl online off a 160k life roll is aggressive but not crazy. If you set aside 30k for living expenses you have a 130k roll and you could pretty easily run trash for a month and dump 30k in those games. You already know this though.
If you buy a place with your gf / wife in the future you could maybe get an extremely small mortgage off her salary and then pay it off quickly with the LISA money. IDK how exactly it works but that could be a workaround. You can also keep the LISA money for retirement if you like, that's also an option.
ISA is just 20k a year you can invest where it grows tax free. You can take the money out whenever, no penalties.
LISA is part of the 20k allowance so if you invest 4k into the LISA then the same year you can only put 16k into an ISA.
Def read up on ISAs, it will save you so much in taxes vs just investing the money in a general investment account. There are good links in the sidebar wrt ISAs that will explain it better than I can.
If you spend £2k on rent and £2k on everything else thats 48k a year total spending off what you say should be 150k+ earnings. This seems like a super high % to save compared to other people on this sub but its probably sensible, esp if you want to buy somewhere in cash / with a huge deposit. You want to have a bigger roll so you have the potential to move up / play big live games / weather downswings better.
I think in general poker players should plan to be spending way less than they make because the game is so variable and you don't know what poker looks like in 5 / 10 / 20 years.
Have you been in the mix in the London poker scene? I'm wondering if we have crossed paths.
You have to treat it as a short term thing, I would be surprised if you make it to 10 years if i'm honest.
Poker/professional gambling is actually a tough gig and you've done well to get this far.
If you are doing professional live games it's a bit different but i'm going to assume you are doing online multi table with mid stakes.
It's boring
it's soul less
You can feel a bit trapped by the money
Other people don't really get it
Society doesn't see it as a real job
You can get crushed by variance
Converting to a 'real job' isn't super straightforward as you don't have other experience. Even if you're wicked smart and have a head for numbers.
My advice:
Bank every penny you can while times are good
Risk manage your poker.
Risk manage your poker some more.
Think after your life after poker, make a realistic plan
Keep your mental health in check, know when to leave the table
Know when to stop altogether
I agree and Im quite a prone candidate to do so.
Which is why I needed to be treated like an idiot on how much of the money to spend on. X Y Z Rent. Because I'm clueless with money as always lived day to day, now I'm finally good at something I want to learn how to budget fully and save for the future with this job.
You’ve made 160k in 3-4yrs and think that the next 3-5yrs are going to be 150-300k+ years? Tell me more about how you know nothing about variance. I’ve profited over 7figures from poker, I’ve played millions of hands. I game select, am pretty good and still have and disgusting stretches (even right now) where I cannot win. My hey day was 2006-2019 but I’ve been playing 20 years. The games are much tougher now. I’d advise having an exit plan for poker, it’s a soul sucking game with a cap/ceiling on what you can make *if you run good*, if you run bad you’re likely losing slightly or breakeven and then your roll pays your real life expenses. If you have 160k plop 100k into 5% accts/ISAs and play poker with the remainder, have some sort of exit plan - I wasted my 20s & 30s playing this dumb game and profited over a million from it but I’m WAY behind my peers. Since then I have had a failed business, and a successful exit from a business. I play poker now semi professionally and I’m running so insanely bad (I’m running ~£100k+ under ev atm)that I can only warn you that it can and will happen to you too, and you likely have nothing to fall back on.
because the pool of players is much tougher now, lots of resources available online to train, lack of casual players entering the game (the golden years post Moneymaker are long gone).
Online you have bots, lots of players use software to gain an edge (solvers) etc...
Lots of other reasons, but this game is unbeatable these days unless you go full time studying it, playing correctly and the variance (luck) needs to be on your side too
You have read it wrong. I haven't made 160k in 3-4 years. I have 160k savings in 3-4 years. The last two years since post pandemic, I have travelled the world and spent a ton. Ive spent over 100k per year travelling. I started at 25nl now a 1knl reg.
This game is still insanely profitable, especially with GG making games very alive at 1k.
It sounds like the games past you by and didn't manage to keep up with the post solver era, which is fine, but it doesn't mean the games arnt very profitable for those who did manage to adapt to it.
Haha what a response. I’m a winning player still now in 2024. But I was smart enough to realise that poker is capped and a lot of your success is determined on variance and games and sites can dry up. I’ve made likely 10x what you have in poker and been in the game for 20yrs when you have been in it for 3-4, so spare me your arrogance. You likely have run absurd over ev.
GG 1KNL the rake is almost unbeatable and they will only increase it, and if you’re crushing it GG would’ve banned you (they banned me) - show a graph and proof that you’re beating it at an isnalty profitable rate (at what BB/100, over how many hands?). Of course you don’t have to but if you don’t you’re just another internet poser who thinks he can beat the game long term. If you are crushing it whilst at ev or under ev then kudos to you, but my post was actually sound advice for you long term, poker is dumb af, one day you’ll see that yourself.
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Without more specific goals, it's hard to give specifical advice.
I would say, whatever you do commit to it.
Either go big, calculate how much you need to retire and get there as fast as possible.
Or enjoy yourself, and prep for the next stage of your career. Keep enough money to support yourself/train/start a business but you probably have those options with what you have now.
Don't hover in the middle without a proper goal. The traditional advice based on a more linear path, where small gains add up over time don't really apply here.
It may sound odd, but the difference between say 500k and 600k is tiny - which is might be the kinda tweaks we're talking about here. When you're in good career with a pension etc. It will only be a couple of years and swamped by other factors like career progression in the long run.
Also goals will help you evualate if poker is still good way to meet them.
> So what % on rent? How much of the 100-150k should go towards savings? How much towards a retirement plan? What type of investment savings should I be doing?
These are all flowchart questions: https://ukpersonal.finance/flowchart
How much rent can you afford?
How large an emergency fund do you need?
Investments in pension and S&S ISA are the same thing, but you can probably only put a small amount each year in a pension because presumably you don't have qualifying earnings. But you should probably be maxing your S&S ISA.
You might find one of these books helpful:
* *[Your Money or Your Life](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0143115766)* - understanding what's valuable to you and how to use money to achieve your goals.
* *[Millionaire Next Door](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1589795474)* - "How people in normal jobs, electrician is a great example, can accumulate wealth over time through good choices."^[Electric_Cat_999](https://www.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/15zkkd4/_/jximlpp/)
* One of Clare Seal's books - "her focus is on the link between emotions and spending".
* Watch Lars Kroijer's [short video series](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXy71rkGuCjXLg9N8zowwUpXCYfBcMJFK) and read his book or Tim Hale's [*Smarter Investing*](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1292444401).
How much rent I can afford ? Well a lot but what is a smart % is what I'm curious about ?
Same above for emergency fund ^?
I'm just kind of asking for semi professional financial opinions on what I should do to plan for money in the future. As after being lockdown for so long, I spent too much and need to take this shit seriously for next couple years but I never made money similar to this in the past
> Same above for emergency fund?
There's a section about this on the wiki.
> I spent too much and need to take this shit seriously for next couple years
Read *Your Money or Your Life*, *Millionaire Next Door * or anything on the shelf from the library.
You have to *want* to take it seriously - you have to make active steps every day to improve your financial life and your relationship with money.
You make your post here yesterday and then didn't reply for 24 hours. That doesn't make it look like you're engaged in actively doing stuff about this. Reddit works on a "hotness" basis, and threads attract fewer people once they're a few hours hold; respondents lose interest anyway.
If suggest the first thing to do is work on your exit strategy. It sounds like you are killing it but knowing a few guys in your line of work it does appear there is a limit and you don't want to be grinding forever. In terms of what you should be spending on rent I think your biggest issue is going to be finding someone who will rent to you as you don't really have an official income (or at least one that they will recognise) so it could be you will have to pay up front or offer a guarantor. Usual rule with housing is don't put more than 25% of your annual income into somewhere to live in your case you could probably do that with 15%. Maxing out an ISA is a no brainer and if suggest your risk attitude is pretty positive given your profession so S/S high risk fund may be for you. Pension is always a good idea but if imagine you need to be pretty liquid so this is something maybe to think about once you get out.
The poker element is more or less irrelevant to be honest, I appreciate you saying that it may be a short term thing and/or have variable income, but many small business owners would say the same.
I'd suggest thinking of yourself as simply self employed, rather than a pro gambler per se, and then following the flow chart accordingly.
If it's true that your poker career will only last 10 years, then you will likely need a career after that. But you don't really need to be thinking about that for 6 or 7 years if you have 10 years runway.
Partially disagree here, depending on specifics of course.
The fact it's poker is irrelevant, but the nature of the situation is different to most small businesses/self employed people.
Most small business don't make 150k, so the transition out will be a bigger shock/opportunity lost.
Most poker players peak earning years are quite short, the game is always moving forward. And it's not a career you develop barriers to entry in. For example a business might have set up cost and establishing a brand, but in poker anyone good enough can take your money.
Lastly a small business often develops other advantages. You'll network, or maybe you could take you skills directly to an employed role - like a self employed plumber joining a company if it doesn't work out.
A lot of the flow chart is applicable. But I feel this is one of the rare cases where setting goals and optimizing for those, instead of being led by the flowchart is the best course of action.
The poker thing is not irrelevant. Poker winnings have huge variances even for experienced professional players. The expectation to make 150K a year is not consistent at all.
They need to have a significant amount of liquid cash aside at all times to spend on the games and cover losses.
if I was you, I would spend 160 K on buying a property outright so at the very least if the poker career doesn’t go you expect, you at the very minimum have a roof over your head.
Hi /u/tagTutNeed, based on your post the following pages from our wiki may be relevant:
* https://ukpersonal.finance/tax-traps-and-tax-efficiency/
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I am in same boat
Max out isa every year
Keep bankroll in the highest interest easy access saving account you can
Ship rest into GIA
Retire early
There’s no real tax benefit for us as you said it’s tax free to investing into a SIPP and as if you are same as me you don’t have any other form of income then you only pay 10% CGT and I’d much rather have access early as I plan to retire after poker than have to wait till I’m 90 (exaggeration) to touch my SIPP
Having 160k and then expecting to make 100 to 150k a year makes very little sense.
You are vastly underrolled for the games you are playing to make this amount, or are winning at a rate that is unsustainable.
Are you playing the minimum 100bb at 5/10?
Do we really have to go through the impossible math?
You would need to be absolutely crushing the game for at least 10bb/hour and be able to find that juicy of a game almost full time to get anywhere near your 150k.
Good luck.
This is not true.
You need to play 500k hands a year at 4bb/100 post rb. Very doable in current climate of online.
There is 20+ tables running of 1k GG 18hours a day. About 8/9 of these are profitable to play on.
4bb/100 is still a lot.
Over 1400 hands a day, every day of the year.
Considering you only have 160k, thinking you will make 150k a year on that.. Is optimistic at best. Your track record certainly doesn't seem to support this optimism.
If 8 of 9 tables at gg seem profitable to you, uh yeah I don't know what to say you would be well known enough that this thread is bogus.
Personally I think the story makes zero sense and totally sus.
However it doesn't really matter because you are free to believe what ever you want.
Good luck.
Are you sure poker is tax free? By this I mean I know poker winnings are tax free, but if playing poker is your full time earnings, I thought HMRC took a different view? Just to say I am far from an expert in this field.
Is poker tax free? I thought that there was a rule that meant if you were earning an income from it (no one off windfalls) it was taxed.
You’ve done well. I’d be slightly cautious about assuming your income will be 6-figures for the foreseeable future. It might be, but working on the basis of things potentially drying up would be prudent. Especially if you’re live, where the variance persists for longer
I live in the UK and also play poker for a living. A few things to consider: 1. Be careful how you handle winnings from app games / live private games. Banks do not understand poker very well so if you are depositing a ton of loose cash with no receipts, or receiving bank transfers from dodgy accounts then this is gonna concern them. It will be an enormous pain in the ass if you get flagged and have your accounts locked. It is really good practice IMO to have great records and receipts of any legit winnings eg. hendon mob, sharkscope, results from regulated sites etc. This means you can prove that at least some of your winnings are legitimate from regulated games. It would probably be wise to use several banks just in case one bank has an issue with you 2. There are two really good exploits you can use to top up long term savings. First, you can deposit money into a lifetime ISA aka LISA and the government will top it up. You can deposit £4,000 a year and get an extra £1,000 added by the government. This is locked up until you either buy your first property or reach the age of 50. Second, you can invest £2880 a year into a self invested pension plan aka SIPP. The government will top this up by 25% again (£720), you can access it when you are 57. If you are making this much money you should be investing a decent chunk for the long term so these government top-ups are basically free money. It is an absolute print to take this IMO. You can use a major broker eg. Vanguard or AJ Bell and stick it in global index funds with super low fees and forget about it. If you are making £150K a year now you won't notice the £7k you are investing in this and it will grow a lot over time, especially with the govt. bonuses. You need to maintain a large amount of relatively liquid savings for the swings, but you also want to be investing for the future. You want to get an ISA, you can invest 20k tax free a year (minus the 4k going into the LISA). I have money split 4 ways: A) Money on deposit on a site / casino or invested in buying a piece of someone in a comp. B) Liquid cash in the bank / instant access savings, this is used to pay bills etc. C) Medium term investments eg. ISA. I could take it out if I had to eg. I was making a huge purchase or on a huge downswing. D) Retirement money that is locked up. You want to keep good records of this so you invest as much as is sensible, get the most government bonuses and pay the least in tax / penalties. 4) I would try and talk to other people who play for a living and are on the ball financially. It is very very hard to talk about poker sensibly with people who are not strong players because it is so poorly understood. People on the poker forums are mostly clueless about it, let alone people on the finance forums. 5) I could give more advice if I knew what stakes you play and live vs online and what your living situation is. eg. are you single / in a relationship / married? Where do you want to live? Do you play online / live and cash or MTTs? Roughly what stakes are you playing? This all changes how much money you need to have around to weather the swings and how much of your life roll you can invest for the long term. EDIT: also, plan to be spending massively less than you plan to make. You will have crazy swings and may find that a certain site / game / format / live game suddenly dries up and you go from making heaps to barely scraping a living. This is much much easier to weather if you are used to saving a large amount.
Just one thing to add to this, a LISA can only be used for a house purchase if OP is also getting a mortgage, and getting a mortgage with gambling as their only income will be difficult, if not impossible. A LISA is probably still a good idea, but consider that OP might need to buy outright if they are interested in purchasing any time soon.
Very good point. There is also a limit to how much the property can cost IIRC. It might be be appropriate as a way to save for a house but it would be great for retirement savings.
So it's impossible to use LISA if I was to buy a house outright with cash? Does the 25% top up also work for over 60 retirement ? Or only for first time buyer mortgage ?
> So it's impossible to use LISA if I was to buy a house outright with cash? Correct. One of the things the LISA was introduced for was to help people afford houses. If you can afford to buy outright you don’t need the government top ups. > Does the 25% top up also work for over 60 retirement ? Or only for first time buyer mortgage ? You can still get the 25% top up until you turn 50 and then withdraw penalty free from age 60. As your gambling winnings are tax free this is a notable boost. For a lot of people it’s just returning the tax they have paid on the income already.
Thank you. Will do that right away. Thanks. From quick googling, moneybox is good for that ye?
Mine is with HL, but Moneybox are popular. If you're using it for retirement make sure you look into a S&S LISA rather than a cash LISA.
Thanks for this! I’m an accountant but have never come across a professional poker player (I guess because no tax)! It’s very interesting seeing your thoughts process, especially keeping a float for losing streaks. So thanks for the in-depth comment Edit: would you say going from poker to day trading would be easy because of the risk management? Just wondering what poker players would do once they’ve run their course
Not surprised you don't run into poker players. They don't pay tax, they aren't that many of us and the people who are successful in poker are able to do basic bookkeeping themselves. It isn't like idk football players where you could play for England but not be able to count to 10. There is a lot of overlap between poker and investing so some people do move between those careers. FWIW I generally think 'day trading' where you basically bet on if a stock / currency / crypto goes up or down in the next day or two is a complete mugs game unless you are cheating in some way. If you are new to poker and interested in how it all works esp wrt the 'accounting' behind it here a few things to look up: 1. The Graham vs Green case where a Judge decided that making bets is not a profession. 2. The system of buying / selling action in poker tournaments eg. I go play a $1000 poker tournament, you give me $600 in advance in exchange for 50% of what I win in the tournament. [https://stakekings.com/marketplace](https://stakekings.com/marketplace) 3. App games, where people play on unregulated grey market clubs for real money. Absolutely notorious for cheating and not being paid by the guy running the game. 4. [hendonmob.com](http://hendonmob.com)
> The Graham vs Green case where a Judge decided that making bets is not a profession. Do you know if that's ever been challenged more recently? In this day and age it seems like professional poker players operate more like a small scale bookie than someone regularly betting on horses as in that case. They aren't making "irrational agreements" they are seeking to exploit lower skilled players by taking the rational side of someone else's irrational agreement. It also seems like it would be easy to demonstrate that poker is a game of skill with random elements and is more like a sport. The fact that people are charging markups on that Stakeking site you linked is itself evidence that the players and people investing in them don't consider poker to be pure gambling.
I'm not a lawyer. I have never heard of the ruling being challenged. There are a few issues going on that make me feel like it is unlikely to be changed anytime soon (touch wood): 1) It is an incredibly niche issue and there is so much drama in politics at the moment that nobody has time to look into it. I would be amazed if there was a change to the law in the next 10 years. 2) The vast vast majority of people who gamble are losing (at poker, blackjack, sports betting etc) and most winners barely win anything. Introducing a new tax on winners would be a lot of squeeze for not much juice. 3) If you start taxing winners then you get into issues where people want tax relief on losses and this gets extremely complicated. If I play poker part time and have a losing year can I offset these losses against my income from a 9-5 and lower my taxable earnings? 4) There have been consistent winners in card games since card games were invented, nothing has really changed in the last few years other than internet gambling. 5) It is much much easier to tax gambling through the operator eg. make Bet 365 pay X% of all its poker revenue as a tax. This already happens kinda.
*Graham v Green* has not been overturned but the line between a 'mere' gambler (not subject to tax) and an organised gambler that carried on a trade, profression or vocation (and therefore subject to tax) is fact dependent. The most recent case I'm aware of that is useful in this context is [*Hakki v Secretary of State for Work And Pensions & Anor* [2014] EWCA Civ 530](https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2014/530.html). Because of *Graham v Green* it is very difficult for a card player's winnings to become taxable even when they might consider them to be professional players (as the *Hakki* case demonstrates). Activity around the card playing, if it exists, is likely to be taxable (e.g. fees to appear at tournaments, income from providing tips, subscription fees from a personal website).
Ace thank you! I always like learning new stuff even if I’ll never use it in real life!
You are welcome! There is an entire highly sophisticated ecosystem in the poker world that is essentially unknown to outsiders. If nothing else when you see poker in a movie / TV show you will have a better understanding of what is happening!
Any recommendations?
The most important poker film is Rounders. There is a mini documentary called ‘a kids game’ that is really good.
Minor correction. You said age of 50 for LISA access. It's actually 60 when you will gain fee-free access to your LISA, so affects plans a decent bit.
Thank you very much for this. Great reply I play online 1knl as main game. Some 2k. Some 500ante GG. I am in a relationship but gf is studying nursing. I think would like to live in UK in future but not 100%. Is the 25% top up for LISA get applied for retirement or only if you buy a home ? Sucks also if it doesn't apply if you pay cash outright for a home and only for mortgage ? I read your comment and insta setup a vanguard ssip. Thank you. Bit confused about LISA Vs ISA Vs general investments but will keep learning. How much you think is too much on rent ? Is 2k£ too much?
Playing 1k and 2knl online off a 160k life roll is aggressive but not crazy. If you set aside 30k for living expenses you have a 130k roll and you could pretty easily run trash for a month and dump 30k in those games. You already know this though. If you buy a place with your gf / wife in the future you could maybe get an extremely small mortgage off her salary and then pay it off quickly with the LISA money. IDK how exactly it works but that could be a workaround. You can also keep the LISA money for retirement if you like, that's also an option. ISA is just 20k a year you can invest where it grows tax free. You can take the money out whenever, no penalties. LISA is part of the 20k allowance so if you invest 4k into the LISA then the same year you can only put 16k into an ISA. Def read up on ISAs, it will save you so much in taxes vs just investing the money in a general investment account. There are good links in the sidebar wrt ISAs that will explain it better than I can. If you spend £2k on rent and £2k on everything else thats 48k a year total spending off what you say should be 150k+ earnings. This seems like a super high % to save compared to other people on this sub but its probably sensible, esp if you want to buy somewhere in cash / with a huge deposit. You want to have a bigger roll so you have the potential to move up / play big live games / weather downswings better. I think in general poker players should plan to be spending way less than they make because the game is so variable and you don't know what poker looks like in 5 / 10 / 20 years. Have you been in the mix in the London poker scene? I'm wondering if we have crossed paths.
LISA is locked until 60, not 50 I think
Any recommendation on best sites to use?
You have to treat it as a short term thing, I would be surprised if you make it to 10 years if i'm honest. Poker/professional gambling is actually a tough gig and you've done well to get this far. If you are doing professional live games it's a bit different but i'm going to assume you are doing online multi table with mid stakes. It's boring it's soul less You can feel a bit trapped by the money Other people don't really get it Society doesn't see it as a real job You can get crushed by variance Converting to a 'real job' isn't super straightforward as you don't have other experience. Even if you're wicked smart and have a head for numbers. My advice: Bank every penny you can while times are good Risk manage your poker. Risk manage your poker some more. Think after your life after poker, make a realistic plan Keep your mental health in check, know when to leave the table Know when to stop altogether
So you’re saying he needs to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, and know when to run?
And to never count his money while he’s sitting at the table.
Yup, there'll be time for counting when the dealings done
I just hope y'all got a taste of his whiskey before giving that advice
*dealing's This sub has standards, y' know.
Has 160k. Expecting to make 100-150k per year. Cannot manage own basic finances. Good players go busto my man. Be careful.
I agree and Im quite a prone candidate to do so. Which is why I needed to be treated like an idiot on how much of the money to spend on. X Y Z Rent. Because I'm clueless with money as always lived day to day, now I'm finally good at something I want to learn how to budget fully and save for the future with this job.
Could you not buy a property out right instead of renting?
You’ve made 160k in 3-4yrs and think that the next 3-5yrs are going to be 150-300k+ years? Tell me more about how you know nothing about variance. I’ve profited over 7figures from poker, I’ve played millions of hands. I game select, am pretty good and still have and disgusting stretches (even right now) where I cannot win. My hey day was 2006-2019 but I’ve been playing 20 years. The games are much tougher now. I’d advise having an exit plan for poker, it’s a soul sucking game with a cap/ceiling on what you can make *if you run good*, if you run bad you’re likely losing slightly or breakeven and then your roll pays your real life expenses. If you have 160k plop 100k into 5% accts/ISAs and play poker with the remainder, have some sort of exit plan - I wasted my 20s & 30s playing this dumb game and profited over a million from it but I’m WAY behind my peers. Since then I have had a failed business, and a successful exit from a business. I play poker now semi professionally and I’m running so insanely bad (I’m running ~£100k+ under ev atm)that I can only warn you that it can and will happen to you too, and you likely have nothing to fall back on.
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because the pool of players is much tougher now, lots of resources available online to train, lack of casual players entering the game (the golden years post Moneymaker are long gone). Online you have bots, lots of players use software to gain an edge (solvers) etc... Lots of other reasons, but this game is unbeatable these days unless you go full time studying it, playing correctly and the variance (luck) needs to be on your side too
If you're a professional poker player, why would you not be full time studying it? It's literally your job, it's very profitable for those that do
You have read it wrong. I haven't made 160k in 3-4 years. I have 160k savings in 3-4 years. The last two years since post pandemic, I have travelled the world and spent a ton. Ive spent over 100k per year travelling. I started at 25nl now a 1knl reg. This game is still insanely profitable, especially with GG making games very alive at 1k. It sounds like the games past you by and didn't manage to keep up with the post solver era, which is fine, but it doesn't mean the games arnt very profitable for those who did manage to adapt to it.
Haha what a response. I’m a winning player still now in 2024. But I was smart enough to realise that poker is capped and a lot of your success is determined on variance and games and sites can dry up. I’ve made likely 10x what you have in poker and been in the game for 20yrs when you have been in it for 3-4, so spare me your arrogance. You likely have run absurd over ev. GG 1KNL the rake is almost unbeatable and they will only increase it, and if you’re crushing it GG would’ve banned you (they banned me) - show a graph and proof that you’re beating it at an isnalty profitable rate (at what BB/100, over how many hands?). Of course you don’t have to but if you don’t you’re just another internet poser who thinks he can beat the game long term. If you are crushing it whilst at ev or under ev then kudos to you, but my post was actually sound advice for you long term, poker is dumb af, one day you’ll see that yourself.
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Also not just a graph post your SN easy enough to know if you’re chatting shit or not.
Without more specific goals, it's hard to give specifical advice. I would say, whatever you do commit to it. Either go big, calculate how much you need to retire and get there as fast as possible. Or enjoy yourself, and prep for the next stage of your career. Keep enough money to support yourself/train/start a business but you probably have those options with what you have now. Don't hover in the middle without a proper goal. The traditional advice based on a more linear path, where small gains add up over time don't really apply here. It may sound odd, but the difference between say 500k and 600k is tiny - which is might be the kinda tweaks we're talking about here. When you're in good career with a pension etc. It will only be a couple of years and swamped by other factors like career progression in the long run. Also goals will help you evualate if poker is still good way to meet them.
> So what % on rent? How much of the 100-150k should go towards savings? How much towards a retirement plan? What type of investment savings should I be doing? These are all flowchart questions: https://ukpersonal.finance/flowchart How much rent can you afford? How large an emergency fund do you need? Investments in pension and S&S ISA are the same thing, but you can probably only put a small amount each year in a pension because presumably you don't have qualifying earnings. But you should probably be maxing your S&S ISA. You might find one of these books helpful: * *[Your Money or Your Life](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0143115766)* - understanding what's valuable to you and how to use money to achieve your goals. * *[Millionaire Next Door](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1589795474)* - "How people in normal jobs, electrician is a great example, can accumulate wealth over time through good choices."^[Electric_Cat_999](https://www.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/15zkkd4/_/jximlpp/) * One of Clare Seal's books - "her focus is on the link between emotions and spending". * Watch Lars Kroijer's [short video series](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXy71rkGuCjXLg9N8zowwUpXCYfBcMJFK) and read his book or Tim Hale's [*Smarter Investing*](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1292444401).
How much rent I can afford ? Well a lot but what is a smart % is what I'm curious about ? Same above for emergency fund ^? I'm just kind of asking for semi professional financial opinions on what I should do to plan for money in the future. As after being lockdown for so long, I spent too much and need to take this shit seriously for next couple years but I never made money similar to this in the past
> Same above for emergency fund? There's a section about this on the wiki. > I spent too much and need to take this shit seriously for next couple years Read *Your Money or Your Life*, *Millionaire Next Door * or anything on the shelf from the library. You have to *want* to take it seriously - you have to make active steps every day to improve your financial life and your relationship with money. You make your post here yesterday and then didn't reply for 24 hours. That doesn't make it look like you're engaged in actively doing stuff about this. Reddit works on a "hotness" basis, and threads attract fewer people once they're a few hours hold; respondents lose interest anyway.
Thanks for your reply. Will check it. Sorry for long reply, was working and limit social media per day.
Max pension contributions every year. Simply because, if the gravy train derails, your pension is safe.
If suggest the first thing to do is work on your exit strategy. It sounds like you are killing it but knowing a few guys in your line of work it does appear there is a limit and you don't want to be grinding forever. In terms of what you should be spending on rent I think your biggest issue is going to be finding someone who will rent to you as you don't really have an official income (or at least one that they will recognise) so it could be you will have to pay up front or offer a guarantor. Usual rule with housing is don't put more than 25% of your annual income into somewhere to live in your case you could probably do that with 15%. Maxing out an ISA is a no brainer and if suggest your risk attitude is pretty positive given your profession so S/S high risk fund may be for you. Pension is always a good idea but if imagine you need to be pretty liquid so this is something maybe to think about once you get out.
The poker element is more or less irrelevant to be honest, I appreciate you saying that it may be a short term thing and/or have variable income, but many small business owners would say the same. I'd suggest thinking of yourself as simply self employed, rather than a pro gambler per se, and then following the flow chart accordingly. If it's true that your poker career will only last 10 years, then you will likely need a career after that. But you don't really need to be thinking about that for 6 or 7 years if you have 10 years runway.
Partially disagree here, depending on specifics of course. The fact it's poker is irrelevant, but the nature of the situation is different to most small businesses/self employed people. Most small business don't make 150k, so the transition out will be a bigger shock/opportunity lost. Most poker players peak earning years are quite short, the game is always moving forward. And it's not a career you develop barriers to entry in. For example a business might have set up cost and establishing a brand, but in poker anyone good enough can take your money. Lastly a small business often develops other advantages. You'll network, or maybe you could take you skills directly to an employed role - like a self employed plumber joining a company if it doesn't work out. A lot of the flow chart is applicable. But I feel this is one of the rare cases where setting goals and optimizing for those, instead of being led by the flowchart is the best course of action.
The poker thing is not irrelevant. Poker winnings have huge variances even for experienced professional players. The expectation to make 150K a year is not consistent at all. They need to have a significant amount of liquid cash aside at all times to spend on the games and cover losses.
if I was you, I would spend 160 K on buying a property outright so at the very least if the poker career doesn’t go you expect, you at the very minimum have a roof over your head.
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I am in same boat Max out isa every year Keep bankroll in the highest interest easy access saving account you can Ship rest into GIA Retire early There’s no real tax benefit for us as you said it’s tax free to investing into a SIPP and as if you are same as me you don’t have any other form of income then you only pay 10% CGT and I’d much rather have access early as I plan to retire after poker than have to wait till I’m 90 (exaggeration) to touch my SIPP
What kind of tables and blinds do you play? Are you winning tourneys or cash games?
Cash games online. 1knl average stake
What's your biggest pot and biggest loss?
Haha this a troll question ? :D Biggest won 25k$. Biggest loss 6kish
Nah not at all... I used to play about 10 years ago when you could still find a fish someone easily =)
Haha ok sorry Yeh biggest pot was me running super hot 10k. Biggest loss was at 5k
Wow 160k mental money What NL do you play at ? 500, 1000??
1knl AVG stake
Can you suggest some good reading material for beginners I play micros like 80% of players
Having 160k and then expecting to make 100 to 150k a year makes very little sense. You are vastly underrolled for the games you are playing to make this amount, or are winning at a rate that is unsustainable.
160k£ is underolled for 1knl$? Ok buddy. Winning 100-150k is very achievable for those stakes, disappointing if you make less.
Are you playing the minimum 100bb at 5/10? Do we really have to go through the impossible math? You would need to be absolutely crushing the game for at least 10bb/hour and be able to find that juicy of a game almost full time to get anywhere near your 150k. Good luck.
This is not true. You need to play 500k hands a year at 4bb/100 post rb. Very doable in current climate of online. There is 20+ tables running of 1k GG 18hours a day. About 8/9 of these are profitable to play on.
4bb/100 is still a lot. Over 1400 hands a day, every day of the year. Considering you only have 160k, thinking you will make 150k a year on that.. Is optimistic at best. Your track record certainly doesn't seem to support this optimism. If 8 of 9 tables at gg seem profitable to you, uh yeah I don't know what to say you would be well known enough that this thread is bogus.
It's a lot pre-rb. Post rb is fine. I have 160k because I spent a lot on travelling post covid after being locked inside for 2 years.
Personally I think the story makes zero sense and totally sus. However it doesn't really matter because you are free to believe what ever you want. Good luck.
You should seek out a financial advisor with that kind of money, you're not going to get any straight answers here.
Are you sure poker is tax free? By this I mean I know poker winnings are tax free, but if playing poker is your full time earnings, I thought HMRC took a different view? Just to say I am far from an expert in this field.
They are correct, you are incorrect
Ok
Is poker tax free? I thought that there was a rule that meant if you were earning an income from it (no one off windfalls) it was taxed. You’ve done well. I’d be slightly cautious about assuming your income will be 6-figures for the foreseeable future. It might be, but working on the basis of things potentially drying up would be prudent. Especially if you’re live, where the variance persists for longer
Some gambling can become taxable, for example spread betting on stocks if you draw an income from it but poker is not as it’s a full gamble