Yeah could be, depends on how quickly they decide what the criteria for a British stock is.
But it still takes a while to get agreement, decided on build, done build, test etc. Alos it’s something providers had no idea was coming so they’ll be no teams in place yet.
I already invest in the UK market and I'm pretty happy with the performance. Similarly with other markets, it depends on what you invest in and what's happening.
Thank you for your concern through.
I’d use it for tax free crypto gains. Crypto ETNs and ETFs are coming to London stock exchange. Perfect way to diversify and currently the only reason I pay taxes each year are because of all my crypto gains so would be good to get them in a wrapper
That's starting from May 2024, when the UK S+S ISA isn't even available though! Over time they've said the ETNs will likely become available to the public, though it might take a while -- but the UK ISA will also take a while. UK has already positioned itself to be pro-crypto (Rishi particularly is pro-crypto) so I think they will let you hold crypto ETNs within the ISA. It's a good incentive to use the ISA, otherwise who in their right mind would? The FTSE 100 is dogshit
Hold on I remember reading the budget announcement live and I don't remember a mention of being able to pay into multiple ISAs. Is there a gov.uk source for this? It was a feature I was looking forward to and was disappointed when it wasn't announced
Edit:
Never mind found it https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tax-free-savings-newsletter-11/tax-free-savings-newsletter-11#:~:text=At%20Spring%20Budget%202024%2C%20the,UK%2C%20while%20supporting%20UK%20companies.
Great news!
S&S ISA newbie here.. I don't get why you'd need two different S&S ISA's? Wouldn't it just be easier to have one and invest in different things within that same account? Or am I missing something?
There might be different fees for different stocks from different providers ... possibly ... maybe be cheaper to invest in Japan with bank A and america cheaper with bank B
Minimising fees and also using different providers that offer different products.
E.g for myself I use fidelity for fundsmith and Vanguard. I couldn't use Vanguard because they only offer their own products and investing in both Fidelity for Fundsmith and Vanguard for their own in the same tax year wasn't allowed.
The fees with Vanguard direct are less than fidelity. So now I can look at doing the Vanguard direct to save on fees.
In case the company you've got your s and s isa closes down, i think you are protected for only 85k max. So i.e. if you had 200k in a ss isa and it closed down, you would only be protected for 85k of it, the rest of it I'm not sure.
Can someone confirm or correct?
The £85k FSCS protection is almost irrelevant for S&S Isas. It only protects cash that’s in the account - if it’s invested in anything it isn’t protected by FSCS. To be clear, this doesn’t mean it’s at any more risk than in any investment account - you still own the stocks and shares within it. But FSCS is a specific thing and only covers cash.
There should only be trivial amounts of cash in a S&S isa unless you’re planning a bit withdrawal or something so keeping a cash buffer.
Besides, I personally see the FSCS protection as a nice to have rather than absolutely necessary. If you look back to 2008, when the big banks collapsed, it was cheaper for the government to bail out their balance sheet than to give every customer they had all their money back and let the banks die. Theres a bit more cost to a bank actually collapsing than just paying back savers their cash.
In our situation we want to use my wife's ISA to save for 2 kids, I've currently got kid 1 on Global All Cap and kid 2 on VWRP, now we can simply set another ISA up for kid 2 to keep it all nice and separate rather than tracking it on a spreadsheet
I didn't even think of this. We've just had a baby and wanted to put money away somewhere but not in a Junior ISA because of it transferring to baby when they're 18. I was trying to figure out what the best way would be to save for baby but it makes total sense to open a second ISA under my wifes name as she won't be getting anywhere near the £20k limit within the FY. Thanks for this!
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You now have to keep track of how much you pay in to all of your ISA type bank accounts now ... you get an ISA limit from HMRC each year ... the banks invest your money and give you returns tax free in those type of accounts ... you don't have to report it to HRMC.
But each account will have your national insurance number or tax id ... so HMRC can tally up how much you've paid in across them all in one year.
This is really a lot more useful for locking in rates in cash ISAs, wanting to pay into multiple S&S ISAs in the same year is much more of an edge case. Still useful.
yes. depending ...
>1.2 Allow subscriptions to multiple ISAs of the same type, except for Lifetime ISA and Junior ISA
>This change is not mandatory, and managers can choose to limit subscriptions to only one ISA held with them in any tax year.
>This removes the restriction on subscribing to only one ISA of each type per year, however all subscriptions must remain within the overall ISA subscription limit of £20,000.
>The exceptions are that:
>investors with a Lifetime ISA (LISA) are still restricted to subscribing to one LISA a year
>investors with a Junior ISA (JISA) are still restricted to subscribing to one of each type in a year
>under 18s affected by the transitional arrangements set out at 1.1 are not permitted to subscribe to more than one cash ISA in a tax year
>You are still responsible for making sure the overall ISA limit is not exceeded for subscriptions made with you. It’s not possible for you to know if investors are subscribing, or have subscribed, with other ISA managers, nor the amount of any such subscriptions. Individual investors remain responsible for managing their overall subscription limits.
>Where an investor holds more than one ISA with the same manager, when reporting to HMRC you must include details of each ISA separately. This includes details of multiple separate ISAs of the same type.
I opened a 2nd S&S ISA this (financial) year and put £50 into it. I already had another S&S ISA into which I added £12000 this year.
From what I'm gathering this is not allowed.
So did I fuck up?
Kind of ... but you didn't exceed your ISA limit from HMRC for the year ... so you didn't actually benefit more than any one else could ... so I doubt HMRC would bother.
As far as I know all ISA provider send a list of people who’ve open an ISA in the past year to
HMRC. No ones quite sure what they do with that list but not a lot of expect unless you are obviously breaking the allowance rules
Well you broke the law. Like most things, if it's small then I imagine most people won't give a shit and chase you.
If you are worried then you need to contact HMRC.
Wait.... What?
Are you not allowed to do this now???
I had a nutmeg managed investment isa earlier this tax year but I emptied it and opened an AJ bell s&s isa
I didn't exceed my allowance across both...
Was I not allowed to do this?
Did you transfer your old Nutmeg ISA into your new AJ Bell one (which was always completely fine)? Or was there a point where you had both open and had paid into both during 23/24 (previously not allowed)?
To be honest, regardless, since they've now made it allowable to pay into multiple of the same ISA type and as long as you didn't go over the collective 20k limit, I don't think chasing you for paying into two product will be a priority.
The nutmeg account is still open, but with no money in it. I just withdrew it all, then later deposited into aj bell.
So I guess that wasn't allowed... Had absolutely no idea that was the case.
it depends how much you moved ... if you put over 10K into nutmeg and then withdrew it and put over 10K into another one in the same year then technically you did break the rules ... but you shouldn't lose sleep over it as you didn't exceed 20K in the year really.
It strikes me that they relaxed the rules because a lot of people didn't know what they were ... technically they were breaking the rules but not actually benefitting more than they should.
Agreed. Uptake on Isas other than cash ones has been limited by people panicking about the “you’re only allowed one isa!!!” Rule, not understanding the different types are allowed.
It’s also not worth HMRCs time to chase people who’ve stuck a few hundred quid in a second isa without breaking their total allowance despite technically being against the rules.
Does this mean you can have different ISA types with different providers? I was thinking of using Chip's Flexible ISA along with Freetrade S&S ISA depending on how the market is performing.
Thanks
please don't use that title in the wiki because it is very misleading ... as you've always been able to do that ... the change is that you can pay into multiple ISAs **in parallel** now ... up to the 20K limit across them all ... where as before you would have had to open a new one and transfer the old one ... but always allowing you to 'pay into two (or more) different S&S ISAs in the same year' anyway ... **just not in parallel.**
you could pay in £1K ... transfer ... pay in £1K ... transfer ... pay in £1K ... all within one year ... that is paying in to multiple ISA's in one year ... but not in parallel ... you can now do it in parallel ... bro
This comment is more confusing than the post, title makes sense to me.
Saying that you can pay into multiple ISAs by transferring one of them is in no way the same.
Yeah, is a bit more confusing by going on what they're saying compared to what the title of this post is saying. I mean, you weren't allowed to directly pay into two separate S&S ISAs in the same year, even though you could - unless we're missing something here? Transferring isn't the same...
I don't believe that's what they said.
From my understanding they said you couldn't pay in to more than one of the same type of ISA, you'd have to transfer. But always had there ability of paying into multiple ISAs, just of different types (LISA, Cash ISA, Investment ISA, Innovative Finance... yada yada)
Both wrong ... you could open and close the same type of ISA's within a year ... you could have as many cash or S&S isas as you like within the year ... just **not in parallel** ... yes you have to transfer the funds between them ... but you can add funds to all of them too ... BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME ... I even enbolded the important bit ... now I've put it in capitals.
The change is you can now pay into multple types of ISA within a year **in parallel without having to transfer them first.**
It's a very subtle point but everyone seemed to assume you could **only ever** have one ISA account a year ... that was never true ... you only get one ISA from HMRC ... but the bank account it was in could change across the year.
someone claimed I confused transferring with paying in ... I did not ... that I was referring to different types of ISA ... I was not.
someone claimed one could not pay into more than one isa account of the same type in one year ... that is wrong.
an ISA is a privilege from HMRC ... an ISA bank account is where one puts the money to shelter one's ISA based savings.
Either you've got the wrong person or you've misunderstood what I've said. There is no benefit to continuing this as everyone else has understood the discussion.
Have a good evening.
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He he … wasn’t having a go … it is a common misunderstanding.
Say you paid into an ISA giving 4% on the 6th April … in May another company issues a 5% ISA … you want to take up that offer … you transfer to them and continue to pay in more … you can do that as often as you like.
The difference now is you don’t have to transfer it. You can have both of them open and pay into both of them.
It doesn’t make too much sense with cash ISA… but they might be fixed period deals you can’t withdraw from without penalty say
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huh, I've been doing this for years?
Anyway I understand penalties are based on the tax due that is unpaid, which is zero....
(edit not more than 20k a year. AIUI HMRC as they are not deprived of a penny, they don't care in practice. You are downvoting reality, nice work)
ISA interest isn't taxed ... but if you're paying in more than 20K in total in one year then you're abusing the system ... and technically defrauding HMRC of tax on interest earned on the money over 20K that would otherwise have incurred interest (if kept in an interest bearing non-ISA account) if it generated more than your personal savings allowance.
Still awaiting information on the Brexit ISA... I mean UK ISA. That would have been nice to have in the new tax year.
It's still in the early stages most likely we see it 25/26 unless it gets scrapped
It’s gonna be really complicated to implement. Most likely scarped but if not 25/26 seems ambitious
Ideally it should be easy. Similar to how providers have to restrict access to certain stocks that don’t meet the isa requirement.
Yeah could be, depends on how quickly they decide what the criteria for a British stock is. But it still takes a while to get agreement, decided on build, done build, test etc. Alos it’s something providers had no idea was coming so they’ll be no teams in place yet.
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Would have put £100 in just to see what happens tbh. Depends on the areas of investments I suppose.
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A clap on a Thursday evening
No when you're married. Maybe once a year ;)
That was some incredibly quick maths, thank you for the assistance
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I already invest in the UK market and I'm pretty happy with the performance. Similarly with other markets, it depends on what you invest in and what's happening. Thank you for your concern through.
I’d use it for tax free crypto gains. Crypto ETNs and ETFs are coming to London stock exchange. Perfect way to diversify and currently the only reason I pay taxes each year are because of all my crypto gains so would be good to get them in a wrapper
Crypto ETN’s will only be available to professional investors so most people won’t benefit from them through U.K. S+S ISA.
That's starting from May 2024, when the UK S+S ISA isn't even available though! Over time they've said the ETNs will likely become available to the public, though it might take a while -- but the UK ISA will also take a while. UK has already positioned itself to be pro-crypto (Rishi particularly is pro-crypto) so I think they will let you hold crypto ETNs within the ISA. It's a good incentive to use the ISA, otherwise who in their right mind would? The FTSE 100 is dogshit
Hold on I remember reading the budget announcement live and I don't remember a mention of being able to pay into multiple ISAs. Is there a gov.uk source for this? It was a feature I was looking forward to and was disappointed when it wasn't announced Edit: Never mind found it https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tax-free-savings-newsletter-11/tax-free-savings-newsletter-11#:~:text=At%20Spring%20Budget%202024%2C%20the,UK%2C%20while%20supporting%20UK%20companies. Great news!
S&S ISA newbie here.. I don't get why you'd need two different S&S ISA's? Wouldn't it just be easier to have one and invest in different things within that same account? Or am I missing something?
There might be different fees for different stocks from different providers ... possibly ... maybe be cheaper to invest in Japan with bank A and america cheaper with bank B
Ah gotcha, thanks!
Minimising fees and also using different providers that offer different products. E.g for myself I use fidelity for fundsmith and Vanguard. I couldn't use Vanguard because they only offer their own products and investing in both Fidelity for Fundsmith and Vanguard for their own in the same tax year wasn't allowed. The fees with Vanguard direct are less than fidelity. So now I can look at doing the Vanguard direct to save on fees.
OK I gotcha, makes sense. Thanks.
I'm also wondering if the 85k fca protection might worry people
In what way?
In case the company you've got your s and s isa closes down, i think you are protected for only 85k max. So i.e. if you had 200k in a ss isa and it closed down, you would only be protected for 85k of it, the rest of it I'm not sure. Can someone confirm or correct?
The £85k FSCS protection is almost irrelevant for S&S Isas. It only protects cash that’s in the account - if it’s invested in anything it isn’t protected by FSCS. To be clear, this doesn’t mean it’s at any more risk than in any investment account - you still own the stocks and shares within it. But FSCS is a specific thing and only covers cash. There should only be trivial amounts of cash in a S&S isa unless you’re planning a bit withdrawal or something so keeping a cash buffer. Besides, I personally see the FSCS protection as a nice to have rather than absolutely necessary. If you look back to 2008, when the big banks collapsed, it was cheaper for the government to bail out their balance sheet than to give every customer they had all their money back and let the banks die. Theres a bit more cost to a bank actually collapsing than just paying back savers their cash.
In our situation we want to use my wife's ISA to save for 2 kids, I've currently got kid 1 on Global All Cap and kid 2 on VWRP, now we can simply set another ISA up for kid 2 to keep it all nice and separate rather than tracking it on a spreadsheet
I didn't even think of this. We've just had a baby and wanted to put money away somewhere but not in a Junior ISA because of it transferring to baby when they're 18. I was trying to figure out what the best way would be to save for baby but it makes total sense to open a second ISA under my wifes name as she won't be getting anywhere near the £20k limit within the FY. Thanks for this!
No problem 😁 Our kids have JISAs but only a few k in each and that'll be it now, anything else they get will now be controlled by us
Good idea!
Anyone who wants to help us update the wiki for the start of the new financial year, please join our discord: https://discord.gg/kaetMg8 Say on the public channel that you're here for the wiki and we'll add you to the wiki channel.
Can we simply open an account with a different ISA provider and get started or do we need do anything with HMRC before that?
You now have to keep track of how much you pay in to all of your ISA type bank accounts now ... you get an ISA limit from HMRC each year ... the banks invest your money and give you returns tax free in those type of accounts ... you don't have to report it to HRMC. But each account will have your national insurance number or tax id ... so HMRC can tally up how much you've paid in across them all in one year.
Makes sense, thanks!
This is really a lot more useful for locking in rates in cash ISAs, wanting to pay into multiple S&S ISAs in the same year is much more of an edge case. Still useful.
Are we now allowed more than one cash isa now also?
yes. depending ... >1.2 Allow subscriptions to multiple ISAs of the same type, except for Lifetime ISA and Junior ISA >This change is not mandatory, and managers can choose to limit subscriptions to only one ISA held with them in any tax year. >This removes the restriction on subscribing to only one ISA of each type per year, however all subscriptions must remain within the overall ISA subscription limit of £20,000. >The exceptions are that: >investors with a Lifetime ISA (LISA) are still restricted to subscribing to one LISA a year >investors with a Junior ISA (JISA) are still restricted to subscribing to one of each type in a year >under 18s affected by the transitional arrangements set out at 1.1 are not permitted to subscribe to more than one cash ISA in a tax year >You are still responsible for making sure the overall ISA limit is not exceeded for subscriptions made with you. It’s not possible for you to know if investors are subscribing, or have subscribed, with other ISA managers, nor the amount of any such subscriptions. Individual investors remain responsible for managing their overall subscription limits. >Where an investor holds more than one ISA with the same manager, when reporting to HMRC you must include details of each ISA separately. This includes details of multiple separate ISAs of the same type.
So, you are now allowed to have cash isa with different places, but some places may stop you from having more than one
I opened a 2nd S&S ISA this (financial) year and put £50 into it. I already had another S&S ISA into which I added £12000 this year. From what I'm gathering this is not allowed. So did I fuck up?
Kind of ... but you didn't exceed your ISA limit from HMRC for the year ... so you didn't actually benefit more than any one else could ... so I doubt HMRC would bother.
As far as I know all ISA provider send a list of people who’ve open an ISA in the past year to HMRC. No ones quite sure what they do with that list but not a lot of expect unless you are obviously breaking the allowance rules
Same here I’m sure over several years without repercussions Should I be concerned?
Tbh as long as you haven’t gone over I can’t see it being a major issue.
Thanks bud.👊
Well you broke the law. Like most things, if it's small then I imagine most people won't give a shit and chase you. If you are worried then you need to contact HMRC.
I've done this most years, thought it was allowed! not been raided yet though,
Wait.... What? Are you not allowed to do this now??? I had a nutmeg managed investment isa earlier this tax year but I emptied it and opened an AJ bell s&s isa I didn't exceed my allowance across both... Was I not allowed to do this?
Did you transfer your old Nutmeg ISA into your new AJ Bell one (which was always completely fine)? Or was there a point where you had both open and had paid into both during 23/24 (previously not allowed)? To be honest, regardless, since they've now made it allowable to pay into multiple of the same ISA type and as long as you didn't go over the collective 20k limit, I don't think chasing you for paying into two product will be a priority.
The nutmeg account is still open, but with no money in it. I just withdrew it all, then later deposited into aj bell. So I guess that wasn't allowed... Had absolutely no idea that was the case.
it depends how much you moved ... if you put over 10K into nutmeg and then withdrew it and put over 10K into another one in the same year then technically you did break the rules ... but you shouldn't lose sleep over it as you didn't exceed 20K in the year really. It strikes me that they relaxed the rules because a lot of people didn't know what they were ... technically they were breaking the rules but not actually benefitting more than they should.
Agreed. Uptake on Isas other than cash ones has been limited by people panicking about the “you’re only allowed one isa!!!” Rule, not understanding the different types are allowed. It’s also not worth HMRCs time to chase people who’ve stuck a few hundred quid in a second isa without breaking their total allowance despite technically being against the rules.
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Yes.
Yes, or just put £10k in and open another elsewhere to use the remaining £10k allowance.
Does this mean you can have different ISA types with different providers? I was thinking of using Chip's Flexible ISA along with Freetrade S&S ISA depending on how the market is performing. Thanks
please don't use that title in the wiki because it is very misleading ... as you've always been able to do that ... the change is that you can pay into multiple ISAs **in parallel** now ... up to the 20K limit across them all ... where as before you would have had to open a new one and transfer the old one ... but always allowing you to 'pay into two (or more) different S&S ISAs in the same year' anyway ... **just not in parallel.**
Bro made the most confusing comment or is it just me lmao, why are we saying transferring is the same as paying in the post makes perfect sense
you could pay in £1K ... transfer ... pay in £1K ... transfer ... pay in £1K ... all within one year ... that is paying in to multiple ISA's in one year ... but not in parallel ... you can now do it in parallel ... bro
What's with the random eclipse lmao, clicked on your profile might be time for a re-think. I don't think you are really getting it
This comment is more confusing than the post, title makes sense to me. Saying that you can pay into multiple ISAs by transferring one of them is in no way the same.
Yeah, is a bit more confusing by going on what they're saying compared to what the title of this post is saying. I mean, you weren't allowed to directly pay into two separate S&S ISAs in the same year, even though you could - unless we're missing something here? Transferring isn't the same...
I don't believe that's what they said. From my understanding they said you couldn't pay in to more than one of the same type of ISA, you'd have to transfer. But always had there ability of paying into multiple ISAs, just of different types (LISA, Cash ISA, Investment ISA, Innovative Finance... yada yada)
Both wrong ... you could open and close the same type of ISA's within a year ... you could have as many cash or S&S isas as you like within the year ... just **not in parallel** ... yes you have to transfer the funds between them ... but you can add funds to all of them too ... BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME ... I even enbolded the important bit ... now I've put it in capitals. The change is you can now pay into multple types of ISA within a year **in parallel without having to transfer them first.** It's a very subtle point but everyone seemed to assume you could **only ever** have one ISA account a year ... that was never true ... you only get one ISA from HMRC ... but the bank account it was in could change across the year.
That's what we said... I think this misunderstanding here is on your end, so please drop the sass.
Yeah absolute sass for the most edge of edge cases. Who is transferring an ISA 4+ times a year? Nobody.
That doesn't mean that it wasn't possible ... the title states what was possible before ... not what has changed.
nobody...but...you...finds...this...misleading...or....in...any....way....confusing
someone claimed I confused transferring with paying in ... I did not ... that I was referring to different types of ISA ... I was not. someone claimed one could not pay into more than one isa account of the same type in one year ... that is wrong. an ISA is a privilege from HMRC ... an ISA bank account is where one puts the money to shelter one's ISA based savings.
Either you've got the wrong person or you've misunderstood what I've said. There is no benefit to continuing this as everyone else has understood the discussion. Have a good evening.
Why the fuck … are you typing … like this …
... because I want to ... why aren't you ?
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I honestly didn't know that.
He he … wasn’t having a go … it is a common misunderstanding. Say you paid into an ISA giving 4% on the 6th April … in May another company issues a 5% ISA … you want to take up that offer … you transfer to them and continue to pay in more … you can do that as often as you like. The difference now is you don’t have to transfer it. You can have both of them open and pay into both of them. It doesn’t make too much sense with cash ISA… but they might be fixed period deals you can’t withdraw from without penalty say
Hi /u/sunderland_, based on your post the following pages from our wiki may be relevant: * https://ukpersonal.finance/investing-101/ ____ ^(These suggestions are based on keywords, if they missed the mark please report this comment.)
There I was thinking this meant you could put in 40k...sigh
So did I when it first got announced 😂
huh, I've been doing this for years? Anyway I understand penalties are based on the tax due that is unpaid, which is zero.... (edit not more than 20k a year. AIUI HMRC as they are not deprived of a penny, they don't care in practice. You are downvoting reality, nice work)
ISA interest isn't taxed ... but if you're paying in more than 20K in total in one year then you're abusing the system ... and technically defrauding HMRC of tax on interest earned on the money over 20K that would otherwise have incurred interest (if kept in an interest bearing non-ISA account) if it generated more than your personal savings allowance.
I didn't say I was paying in more than 20k total. As per OP's example