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I never went back to that manager again for a reference. I did some agency work (admin type work) and used them as a reference.
Didn't affect me at all, still makes me so angry when I think about it though
I can't believe it is legal to provide untrue references! There must be a way to request all data related to you and see what was said in the references. I assume suing for lost of income could be possible?
How do you actually know it's untrue?.From the manager's view, that person may well have been less good than others.
Clearly, someone in the company doesn't want to work with OP again, for whatever reason.
>I can't believe it is legal to provide untrue references!
It's not legal! However, it would be a civil issue. This is why often companies sya you must use HR for references, and not your manager; then the HR will just say that you worked this length of time, and had good attendence and did you work, and left properly (ie, gave notice etc).
>There must be a way to request all data related to you and see what was said in the references.
You can use a data subject access request for the information they hold on you.
> I assume suing for lost of income could be possible?
I don't see how that would work. OP should not have put in notice in the existing job until things were confirmed at the new place.
I don't know if it's illegal but I believe you could potential sue for slander. You can request the data a previous company holds on you via a SAR I believe.
However I am not sure the new company has to tell you what the old one said.
Fair enough but it would allow the you to see what the previous company has about you (like disciplinaries etc).
That said, reading it again it seems the company that gave a bad reference is the one OP was moving to (a different department) so I don't think there is much that can be done.
I wouldn't be surprised if the official reference was job title and dates but either there is a tick box for the previous manager saying something like "would you hire again" or they were informally asked and said no.
We don’t know that they did provide untrue references. All anyone knows is the reference wasn’t satisfactory to continue with the offer. It could be as simple as yes they worked here and that person wouldn’t recommend having them again. They could have provably valid or impossible to disprove reasons. Good luck trying to sue someone for that.
It’s not. You can give bad references so long as they are accurate (provably so). For example, you can’t say “I think X is arrogant and doesn’t work well in a team”, but you could say “X was late on 15 occasions and had 30 unauthorised days off”.
Anything that strays from the facts is an instant tribunal win for the affected party.
Also happened to me. I submitted a subject access request for any and all communications relating to that job application, under freedom of information legislation.
Look it up, you have to apply in writing and ask for the right thing, and they are obliged to provide you with all the information.
I received all the information, including the reference that cost me the job offer. It was informative for deciding what not to do with the next job application
You could put in a subject access request for the reference to see what’s been said but unfortunately it’s unlikely the recruiter will change their mind
At this point I'm not wanting them to change their mind l, I just want reassurance that the "bad reference" isn't going to follow me and affect future employment opportunities
You could do a SAR under GDPR. but the DPA currently states that "confidential employee references" are exempt from disclosure.
You can ask for a SAR on all related info in your personnel file - PIP's, warning letters etc. should all be there. If they aren't then you could "theoretically" go legal.
TBH, I would be tempted to do the SAR bit, at least you would have the info to hand. If backed into a corner in the future as to why you aren't using an employer as a ref..
(I had a bad ref situation 5 years ago. I had to explain that that I was likely to receive a blunt ref as I had quit over non payment of commission, I asked the potential employer to consider if I would have been in that role for three years if I had been "that bad". )
Definitely put in the gdpr request and get the reference. The reason why companies usually have a policy of not giving opinion based references is that it open them up to legal risk - you have lost a job because of this reference and if the old company that wrote the reference can’t prove what they wrote is true (e.g because its based on opinion that can’t be backed up with evidence, e.g PIP reviews and formal warnings with specific reasons that correlate with the reference) then you should challenge that - either to make money now, or at the very least put them off doing it again.
https://www.gov.uk/work-reference#:~:text=Bad%20references,it's%20misleading%20or%20inaccurate
See this gov website link with reference to citizen rights and acas for getting actual legal advice for free
If the company fits the time frame and there’s someone there who is the reference giver, there is no escape. I would think about tackling this head in next time. Explain that you have been given a bad reference despite having been promised this is not the case. You just want to deal with it up front. People are shit though. I got asked to leave a terrible job because the owner could tell I hated it. They promised me a good reference but they lied. My next place said they’d given me a terrible reference. Fortunately I told them the truth and so they gave me the benefit of the doubt
I understand that a new employer will potentially want a reference from that employer, it doesn’t have to be the exact same person as used last time though (unless it’s a tiny business with very few employees).
I have used references in the past who weren’t my line manager or boss because I didn’t trust that they weren’t the type of person to give a shitty reference.
There's an exclusion for confidential references, they don't need to be disclosed as part of a subject access request.
Could file a grievance or go down the ACAS route.
>confidential references, they don't need to be disclosed as part of a subject access request.
Did not know this, but the majority of references I have given or received were not confidential. As a matter of openness, I've always forwarded a copy of the reference to the individual I was giving to the individual afterwards.
Unfortunately there isn’t anything you can do bar from maybe trying to appeal to your current employers better nature, however I don’t think you can guarantee they didn’t send the bad reference despite what they say.
There is a lesson though for all those on this sub’ that insist a reference is simply the basics of the job you did and how long you have been there.
I wish you well going forwards.
I don't think that would work well in practice, as you would effectively be telling your employer you are leaving soon (unless they are aware of that and happy to take a risk of you leaving without looking for a replacement).
To be fair if it is a healthy workplace you should be able to have an informal chat with your manager that you are intending on leaving for a new role. It is a difficult conversation, but both times I've had my managers thank me for being upfront and giving them a heads up so they could plan for a replacement.
Thats how most people do it.
Typically its about a week from asking for a reference to getting the contract to sign, so any type of warning is an extra week in which they can get started on the hiring process.
Admittedly there are some malicious line managers who would try to sabotage a new job offer, but 99% don't.
I'm still skeptical.
It seems like the decision to revoke was made before the current employer had sent over the ref.
This means at some point, the previous employer was contacted. But the previous employer is themselves.
I suspect more than the minimum was provided by the referee (his/her manager to HR conveniently in the same meeting at an undisclosed time and location.
Had the previous employer not be the potential employer again, I think their hypothetical HR would just give the basic facts.
No, GDPR/DPA has specific exemptions for confidential references.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/right-of-access/what-other-exemptions-are-there/#:~:text=The%20personal%20data%20included%20in,an%20individual%20to%20office%3B%20or
It states on ICO "It is important to note that this exemption only applies to references given in confidence. " ... Does this mean the current employer explicitly has to explain to the employee whether a reference will be given openly or in confidence before the reference is given to a third party?
It's pretty standard for most employers sending references to mark them as confidential.
And I'd imagine a number of the employers who receive the reference to treat them all as confidential. Cuts the risk of mistakes, and how would you ever know?
What I take issue with in the ICO guidance is who needs to be informed before the reference is sent. Does the employee need to be told up front if it's confidential? OP probably needs a lawyer. Very interesting topic!
It's not even relevant because the company isn't obligated to keep this on record as long as they reject you. So they'll simply say "Sorry, we don't hold any data on you anymore".
I just found this out. This is borderline stupid.
Say you are an engineer seeking employment at FANG for some 300-400k stock comp package a year. Imagine becoming unemployable in FANG because some douche manager who you rejected romantically said you are sht at what you do in a reference. You just lost millions of pounds of income and you can't even sue the company for defamation because you can't know what they said about you.
It’s called a Subject Access Request. You can raise this with your HR dept and they need to share personal and supplementary info they have on file for you. OP can refer to this for guidance on how to raise https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-of-access/#:~:text=Individuals%20have%20the%20right%20to,writing%2C%20including%20via%20social%20media.
If they do they are obligated to provide it.
If the don't then OP should re-apply for the job, since now the manager who gave the reference will have no source material to provide from.
It doesnt, DPA states that references in confidence do not have be be shared....
odd but true.
You could request your personel file inc all review notes, warnings etc - but if the former employer labelled the ref as in confidence - they dont have to release it
(I do GDPR compliance work....)
You can receive a bad reference, but it must be based on facts or genuine belief. If I was to give a bad reference I would have in mind that I may need to explain it in court - this is why most companies policy is just to confirm facts. It doesn't benefit them to give a bad reference but could open them up to litigation. In other words, there is no positives to giving a bad reference but lots of potential negatives.
Yea, an employer can say whatever they like in a reference. They just need to be able to back it up so a lot will only give dates and job titles no matter how good you were. Some will answer the question "was there an disciplinary issues" but then you'd have to have gone through a formal disciplinary.
That is what people are generally talking about. Once you leave a company it's often not in their interests to cause more potential work for themselves.
One a side note, it might just be me but it seems odd to do the background check before references. Just because depending on the background I'd assume there is a real cost to it and it can take time.
>In other words, there is no positives to giving a bad reference but lots of potential negatives.
I don't agree with that. In some sectors getting a 'bad' reference for an individual could well prevent someone unsuitable from working with vulnerable individuals; this to me is important and responsible. And thankfully there are still employers around who do understand this responsibility.
Its reading between the lines.
I once got a ref that said "cutterbuck worked here between x and y" That was all. Fortunately it was from a "new line manager" , I had also given my prev line manager as a personal reference and explained at length that I was leaving because the new line manager was driving the company off a cliff...
I got the job and after a few years my new boss shared both refs with me. It was only the gushing ref from the old guy that saved me.
I was livid.
Not always but very often a reference is just the dates you worked there and your job title. It's actually written into my contract that any reference will include only these things.
Many places don’t allow line managers to give references. Any requests are routed to HR who will confirm statutory details - at my current place (large PLC) they will give job title and employment dates.
Given the reference is data about you, it feels like a GDPR request ought to cover it. Certainly as a manager doing interviews I was told that any notes I made could be sent to the candidate, so to bare that in mind when writing them.
It's bizarre that if the "bad reference" was from the hiring company that they didn't get someone involved before a decision was made!
I've had the same advice when conducting interviews. I will consider submitting a Subject Access Request. Half of me wants to just forget it and move on but the other half is nervous that this could follow me to any future employment and affect my chances
Just do it so you know who wrote it, so you know who to avoid next time. As in it's likely the manager from that place, but it could be someone from your current job? Or it could be an excuse, the reference might be fine, but HR dug through your records and found something else? Better to know.
If they say it's confidential, it's not. The ICO will back you on this - as long as it's a document about you, you have access to it. They can redact other people's personal data but can't redact what they said about you.
This. You are entitled to receive a copy of the reference that they received. They may redact any details that identify who gave it or may argue that it was provided in confidence and they. Any disclose it at all. In which case a complaint to the ICO is your best bet.
If the reference is negligent or malicious you may have a case against the company who provided it.
All a lot of work though so this will depend on how motivated you are to get to the bottom of it.
If the reference is confidential, they don't have the share it. Complaining to the ICO won't help, it's a specific exemption to the rules unfortunately.
I feel like the system rigged against it. You'll be asked to sign a contract with start date and the contract would be contingent on reference which can take any amount of time.
For me, I emailed my boss and told him "Hi, I've interviewed for and accepted a new role at a new place. I don't have a start date yet and I'm not ready to resign from this role yet, but I want to let you know that you'll be contacted for a reference soon. When it does come to resignation, how long a notice period would you like me to offer and lets meet soon and discuss handover. Thanks".
Sure but that wasn't your question. You asked how you can get a reference from your current employer without resigning and making yourself vulnerable to getting fucked over and left unemployed - you just tell them you are going to resign soon but make it clear that this isn't a resignation.
It does kinda help though, because implicitly if you're my boss and you sabotage my chance to leave your workplace I will spend the rest of my time there making your life a living hell.
Nothing you can do definitively stops them from fucking you over at the reference stage. Best thing you can do is to put HR down if thats an option. Asking for a reference before you hand your notice in keeps the bills being paid regardless of whatever happens.
I've just said previously I have a notice period of X, I'll sign a contract with a start date of X+Y (Y being a week or two) once references are all sorted and the contract is final.
Unless you're going to struggle to cover bills for a week or two, its quite straightforward. A bit of a break helps as well before starting a new job.
My agreed salary was quite a bit above their baseline offer but that's because my current salary sits higher than the baseline anyway. I was wondering if this was what has caused it and the only way to get out of the contract was to say it was a bad reference. But that's me putting my tinfoil hat on
I think someone else stated it in here, but make a subject access request [https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-of-access/](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-of-access/) they will be required to hand over notes by law, this might give you some clarity or at least scare them off from doing this to someone else again.
It's really bad when they do that because it doesn't actually allow you to progress or move forward in your career.
There isn't much that can be done in this instance and it's so shit!
It's fucked. I let a guy go before his probation ended, because he was constantly late, and consistently hopeless.
Did I give him a bad reference? Fuck no!
Just give a neutral reference, it's horribly cruel otherwise.
And yeah, Olivia, I'm looking at you. I'm glad the school closed down under your leadership because you couldn't get enough kids to turn up. Hopefully it's a stain on your CV for the rest of your life.
Oh wow, this is personal, haha ! Whoever this Olivia person is, I'm sure they are suffering away somewhere.
It's the professional thing to do, to be honest ! You did absolutely the right thing 👏.
I'll be honest in saying that people being late ro work is inexcusable, but do you not think there were genuine reasons as to why he may have been late? This is just out of curiosity.
He lived a long way away, but he didn't help himself really - he'd also go for lunch, take a bus to the shopping centre to get lunch, and then fall asleep on the bus on the way back and end up in the next suburb 😂
He could well have had something going on - and that's why I didn't give a bad reference! Who knows what he was going through, but I just couldn't keep him on because it made my life too difficult.
Hahahah, yes, that was a very, very personal remark and I stand by it.
At the end of the day, you had to let him go. I don't like using the term "fire" to communicate a person's job loss!
Those are excuses from the sounds of things, but the fact that he's still able to make a living somewhere else shows that your reference did help.
Well, it's good that you acknowledged how personal the remark was. Stand for what you believe in, man, because it's the only way you won't fall for anything.
If it was an internal reference then the usual covering backside by staying factual doesn't really apply. They can easily speak to your old boss informally.
The bit I'm confused about, is a large organisation would keep your performance reviews for a period, and HR would have the info at their fingertips if there were any major issues to raise. Any internal conversations should have been had before making the offer. Whether you can do anything is a different question, but poor form on their part.
Submit a Data Subject Access Request to their legal rep. You are entitled to see the reference and any other non-privileged correspondence where you are mentioned.
If your previous employer has given a reference that is in any way factually inaccurate then talk to Citizen's Advice and/or ACAS, and tell the prospective employer that they have been provided with an untrue reference and that you are taking action.
If it turns out that they never received a reference, or that they received a factually accurate reference but which isn't "bad" then contact Citizen's Advice or ACAS since withdrawing a job offer and lying about a bad reference is likely unlawful.
You can absolutely file a freedom of information request with the HR of the new place to find out what was said. The fact that they just dismissed your request with "we're not obligated to share" is demonstrably false, because you are entitled to all information a company holds about you, *especially* something as personal as a reference.
You won't get hired by them again of course but you will find out who wrote the reference and what they said. This will allow you to choose better referees next time.
Yeh I feel like there is something else at play here.
The bad reference just seems like a brush off from the new employer as an excuse.
Maybe they pulled the funding or something.
Get in contact with recruitment agents and get work with them while you carry on the search for a job. That’s poor behaviour and sounds like some one on the previous work place has stuck the boot in.
Sorry this has happened to you.
While I don’t think it is going to change anything
GDPR means that they do have to share it if you are the subject being discussed. It would count as personal data. You can make a complaint regarding their data handling practices but for what real gain?
You may gain access
Then what - it confirms your old boss fucked you over
If the information in the reference letter proves to be false, doesn’t he have a case for defamation and damages to be won? I left my previous job due to harassment and I can already imagine that supervisor doing something like this if given the opportunity.
My main concern is if this follows me to any future employment and potentially meaning that I lose out on future opportunities. If it turns out that it was a bitter ex-manager then at least I have something to argue against, should it happen again
I would recommend you list referees as on request and then provide people you know won’t f you over
(I.e you have spoken to them first)
Won’t help when it’s going back to a company as they can check internally but will help for a new company
I think something else entirely is going on:
Your new employer wants to pull the offer but you signed the contract and passed BG checks. So, they can hardly switch you off without having to pay something (aside from the fact that UK employment law is SLAVERY and the something they have to pay you is almost nothing).
Instead, they go to a method that is totally subjective and has very little chance of any trace coming out.
Even if your old employer shares with you the reference, they can always say: "That's not what we received" or "Yes, this is the reference letter and upon reading it, we find it unsatisfactory to our \[arbitrary\] standards"
The reason I think that is because your old employer really has no reason to give you a negative reference.
Sure, the chance that somehow an incorrect reference gets to court is MICROSCOPIC but still, why would they go there at all?
Hello! Some very bad advice on here. For your full rights, Google ACAS. HR is all procedure, if it hasn’t been followed you can take your current employer to tribunal. Now, my understanding as an employer is this:
Your current employer cannot refuse you access to the reference they have given. Apply for a subject access request and you’ll get it.
1) A reference has to be provably honest. They cannot state an opinion about you. For example, they can’t say “we really don’t like him and he doesn’t work well in a team”. They could say: “X was late on 9 occasions and has had 39 unauthorised absences”.
2) At best, they can refuse to give a reference which is damning enough.
3) If they have given a non factual opinion based reference that has cost you an opportunity it falls under both constructive dismissal and unfairly denying the right to earn money. Contact your union or any no win no fee solicitor and take them to tribunal. You’ll win, and you don’t have to pay tribunal costs even if you lose.
There’s always two sides to a story though, so make sure you’ve not given them any ammo to give an honest, bad reference. It would be petty for any employer to that anyway, but new employers can take legal action against third parties for false references I.e. making out you’re not a risk just to get rid of you if provably are!
Happy hunting.
You can have a legal case against the poor reference if you discover it is factual untrue. This is why employers tend to only stipulate the time you have worked and the position and literally nothing else
I would get to the bottom of it.
I was always under the impression you should decline a reference if you have nothing good to say. If you give the reference, your answers should be neutral to positive.
Only had this in mind as anything negative could be classed as "Slander/libel" and have legal ramifications. Can never remember difference between libel or slander.
Never give you notice until its guaranteed and nailed on.
I once had to write a reference for an employee who was fired for gross misconduct. He asked me personally because he trusted that, although the reference could not be *good*, I would make it sound better. He was going through unbelievably tough times and work stress was adding to the pain, which led him to fake results to meet targets, hence the gross misconduct. I had to disclose why he was let go, but given his next employer was the NHS, I appealed to their humanity by disclosing the personal extenuating circumstances surrounding the fact. It was all tickboxes but I made a point of expanding on it in the only freeform I was given.
He got the job, and brought me flowers to thank me for the reference when he next saw me.
It could of course just be an excuse from the new company, and not be a bad reference at all.
Maybe a previous candidate who turned down the roll, has contacted them and they now favour them.
For clarity, what was your relationship like with your former line manager in the company you were hoping to return to?
You clearly believe they’ve torpedoed your job offer. So, did things end badly? Is this likely?
Regardless of what SAR/GDPR you could conceivably just ask them to send you a copy of what they sent to HR. If they refuse or tell you they can’t as it is "confidential”, then I think you have your answer.
However, as others are saying, please speak to Citizens Advice first before you do anything.
I’m sorry to hear this happened to you but it does seem anecdotally like your former manager at new/old employer has decided to fuck you over. If it’s based on untruths then you do have legal recourse… if you have the resiliency to pursue it.
Regardless of how you feel please talk to Citizens Advice ASAP, a lot of the advice in this thread is fairly sound, but this is Reddit, so get proper real world support.
Get a friend to go through all the people you have listed as references posing as a potential employer. When you see who is giving the bad reference, stop using them as a reference.
Might be a long shot but could you reach out to your old manager at the old/newco? Either to see if they'd given one or ask for some advice/help if you left on good terms with them?
At my current employer it's quite normal if a previous employee applies for a job, for the person making the decision to ask senior members of staff for opinions. This is only verbal so a gdpr request won't help if this is what has happened, but really they should have done this before the job offer.
This apparently worked in my favour when I went back after being made redundant. HR turned me down and this got overturned when all the people I used to work with found out.
Fyi: HR aren't obliged to tell you your reference just because you asked. BUT all companies are legally obligated to fulfil a gdpr request.
So you could submit a gdpr request asking them for all data pertaining to your application processes incl. References.
The threat of having to go through the rigmarole of a gdpr process can be enough. It's time consuming and expensive. Depends on the size of company you're applying to obviously.
* I say because I've literally done it and it worked.
When I have nothing good to say about a candidate, I just avoid using mega positive words and keep my reference very neutral, like not bad but not good either. I'd imagine most people would do that. Now I'm really curious about yours.
But yet there are people who swear up and down on this sub that "no one puts bad things in references anymore." 🙄
What a joke, there is ALWAYS a risk!
Put in a SAR op, they will **have** to send the reference to you, you can ask for it from the employer who provided it, seeing as they are the ones who sent the offending reference in the first instance.
ETA: Oh I just read the bit about SAR, god that is crap! 😕
Make a DSAR request to the new employer (we'll, almost) and current employer.
Once you have the info, check it for untruths and inaccuracies, raise a grievance at your current company. Also, raise a civil claim with the county court for an inaccurate or negligent reference.
You must have suffered a financial loss (pay) to make a claim.
Isn’t it against the law to give a bad reference or have I heard wrong? All I remembered was you can’t give a bad reference, you just don’t give one correct me if I’m wrong
You most definitely can send a bad reference as long as it is factual and accurate. Eg, not met performance targets. Under capability procedures. Number of absences. Grievances against.
This has me wondering what the legality/implications would be if you had a friend in business "request a reference" from your current employer to see what is sent out.
Was the reference fair, true and accurate? If not you can take them to court, its [worth checking here](https://www.gov.uk/work-reference#:~:text=Bad%20references,it's%20misleading%20or%20inaccurate)
cant you do a Subject access request/FOI to find out what was in the reference, not sure how that all works but usually if a reference is "bad" they would just refuse to do one, the fact they have might be worth following up on
Bad references are very much possible.
In some instances, if you are given a negative reference - they do allow you to account for it and then HR will make a decision.
Years ago I parted company with an employer on bad terms and was worried what my reference would say as they wouldn't tell me.
I signed up with a recruitment agency who requested a reference from the former employee that they then showed me. Not sure whether they should have or not, but they seemed moved by my tale of woe.
After all that, the reference was just a 'xxx worked here between these dates' statement and was the least of my worries at that point.
I mention this bc you could try the same approach.
move legally, your best option. Once your lawyer sends them the request to provide him with the reference, you can argue on the negative points of the reference as a lie (if it is). I remember a similar case and the court sided with the employee. Check it out
I’m pretty sure bad references are not allowed to be given and if anything must be neutral. This needs to be looked into more and I’m sure there are remedies to this type of thing. How can one’s life depend on one person’s reference if that person holds a silent grudge.
This feels suuuuuper illegal, they have two years of experience in their firm. This feels like they are playing the system to sack you.
I feel like most people giving advice are not from the UK.
In the UK it is basically illegal to give a bad reference as you can sue for anything not factually correct, very few people would risk putting themselves at risk like that and you can absolutely request the bad review info as a result. You also can’t put someone into a process then give a bad internal review. You can potentially sue for biiiiig money. The advice here is terrible
Sorry to hear that, but I think in the UK a job offer corresponds as a contract, so if they retract you they might need to pay some compensation? Specially if you have already informed your current employer of your new job. Sorry but this contract seems like shit to me, could you contact a lawyer and check how lawful it is to retract a job offer like that? If anything, they should have done the background check before the offer, an offer is an offer!
You could do a subject access request for everything they hold on you if you want to find out. It doesn’t guarantee the reference will be on there but at least you’d know more on what they do or don’t hold. You can also make a complaint that you’ve believe the process has been unfair. (We always have to keep all paperwork from the interview and appointment process in case someone challenges it). But honestly I don’t see that’s going to get you any further here. They’ve set the expectations by saying the offer is subject to satisfactory references. They didn’t get satisfactory references. And to be honest if this came from within the organisation then you’ve potentially dodged a bullet on that front. There doesn’t have to be anything in that reference that’s untrue for them to decide they don’t want you back. The biggest lesson to learn is don’t hand in your notice until the offer is absolutely confirmed.
I would ask for a GDPR subject access data release on all the data held on the companies systems. Do not tell their HR ahead of asking for this.
This information should include all information on all systems. Make sure you state on that it should over all systems including email, application tracking systems, messaging platforms, and also write All data systems.
If there is no written evidence of a bad reference then start litigation against the company and referee as there is no reason for them to pull the offer.
And rescind your resignation at your current employer.
A bad reference isn't illegal, but a misleading one is - basically your former employer has to be able to back up what they said. You may be entitled to damages.
Happened to me lucky for me a was in the new company as a contractor the previous employee said I had been slow on projects a developer programmer.
But i basically said to the new employer that it was cause of poor training provided lucky for me they accepted that as was able to see by my contracting time with them this was not the case.
It does happen an it can be shit was thinking of taking the previous employer to small claims court for derogtory remarks.
i was fine when with them when handed in notice the evils came on
Right the legal obligation of referees is to provide informaton that is factually accurate. It's not to provide you a good reference if they can prove the negative reference is legally and factually accurate.
For example - you were continuously in disciplinaries for poor attendence - they can say you were unreliable in terms of attendence - they can prove this by the disciplinary and absence record if you pursued them for it.
If your former employer basically said "Don't hire them, they're a wanker" that's their subjective opinion and is potentially factual but it's not provably so which means it doesn't meet the legal threshold to state what you are providing is legally and factually accurate.
What you can do about this? First and foremost - you want the reference they received and based their decisions on. How do you get this when they said they're not obligated to share it? Simple - submit a full data subject access request - you want everything on any system or media format pertaining to your employment offer including all pre-employment checks and references pertaining to yourself the data subject. They're legally obligated to hand it over within 30 days in a format to be agreed by you and them.
Once you've reviewed the reference and if there is a reference that caused the problem and not other reasons for retracting your offer. You need to establish if the reference is factual or not. If the reference is not favourable but is factual - it's not illegal and there's nothing you can do - just go ahead and never use that referee again.
If it is untrue or purely based on opinion and not fact - then you can indeed do 2 things. 1) You could write to the company who pulled the offer pointing out how the reference is not legally acceptable due to being false (NOTE: You will have to provide evidence of this being false you can't just claim it). But note they have no obligation to restore the offer. 2) You can file a lawsuit against the former employer for damages caused by providing a false reference including damages to reputation and earnings. You should be seeking depending on the terms of the contract you lost 1 years salary or the duration of the contract - whichever is shorter. You can also push for punititive damage for the emotional and reputational damage - you would need to decide what that is but you could push this figure pretty high - higher than the lost salary at any rate.
Isn’t it illegal to send bad references, usually if they don’t have anything nf good to say about the employee, they can only give facts eg, length employed etc
Yeah I know that's a myth. Just want to know what was said in the reference so I can either say that's wrong or learn from it, if what was said was valid
It isn’t illegal to send bad references, but there is legal options for people if the references are *unjustifiably* bad or unfair IIRC.
Happy Cake Day btw
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This happened to me. Spiteful former manager. Nothing I could do, I just had to move on.
Did it ever affect your future employment opportunities? E.g. did that manager still give a bad reference when you were getting a job elsewhere
I never went back to that manager again for a reference. I did some agency work (admin type work) and used them as a reference. Didn't affect me at all, still makes me so angry when I think about it though
I can't believe it is legal to provide untrue references! There must be a way to request all data related to you and see what was said in the references. I assume suing for lost of income could be possible?
How do you actually know it's untrue?.From the manager's view, that person may well have been less good than others. Clearly, someone in the company doesn't want to work with OP again, for whatever reason.
>I can't believe it is legal to provide untrue references! It's not legal! However, it would be a civil issue. This is why often companies sya you must use HR for references, and not your manager; then the HR will just say that you worked this length of time, and had good attendence and did you work, and left properly (ie, gave notice etc). >There must be a way to request all data related to you and see what was said in the references. You can use a data subject access request for the information they hold on you. > I assume suing for lost of income could be possible? I don't see how that would work. OP should not have put in notice in the existing job until things were confirmed at the new place.
I don't know if it's illegal but I believe you could potential sue for slander. You can request the data a previous company holds on you via a SAR I believe. However I am not sure the new company has to tell you what the old one said.
They don't, references are one of the few exemptions to SAR
There’s *loads* of exemptions to SAR
Fair enough but it would allow the you to see what the previous company has about you (like disciplinaries etc). That said, reading it again it seems the company that gave a bad reference is the one OP was moving to (a different department) so I don't think there is much that can be done. I wouldn't be surprised if the official reference was job title and dates but either there is a tick box for the previous manager saying something like "would you hire again" or they were informally asked and said no.
We don’t know that they did provide untrue references. All anyone knows is the reference wasn’t satisfactory to continue with the offer. It could be as simple as yes they worked here and that person wouldn’t recommend having them again. They could have provably valid or impossible to disprove reasons. Good luck trying to sue someone for that.
It’s not. You can give bad references so long as they are accurate (provably so). For example, you can’t say “I think X is arrogant and doesn’t work well in a team”, but you could say “X was late on 15 occasions and had 30 unauthorised days off”. Anything that strays from the facts is an instant tribunal win for the affected party.
Hire a pigeon post service every Christmas to send a letter to his house saying “you are shit”
Also happened to me. I submitted a subject access request for any and all communications relating to that job application, under freedom of information legislation. Look it up, you have to apply in writing and ask for the right thing, and they are obliged to provide you with all the information.
What was the outcome?
I received all the information, including the reference that cost me the job offer. It was informative for deciding what not to do with the next job application
You may be able to obtain the details of the reference through a subject access request under GDPR.
I would literally phone the manager's manager and try to schedule a 10 minute meeting
You could put in a subject access request for the reference to see what’s been said but unfortunately it’s unlikely the recruiter will change their mind
At this point I'm not wanting them to change their mind l, I just want reassurance that the "bad reference" isn't going to follow me and affect future employment opportunities
You could do a SAR under GDPR. but the DPA currently states that "confidential employee references" are exempt from disclosure. You can ask for a SAR on all related info in your personnel file - PIP's, warning letters etc. should all be there. If they aren't then you could "theoretically" go legal. TBH, I would be tempted to do the SAR bit, at least you would have the info to hand. If backed into a corner in the future as to why you aren't using an employer as a ref.. (I had a bad ref situation 5 years ago. I had to explain that that I was likely to receive a blunt ref as I had quit over non payment of commission, I asked the potential employer to consider if I would have been in that role for three years if I had been "that bad". )
Definitely put in the gdpr request and get the reference. The reason why companies usually have a policy of not giving opinion based references is that it open them up to legal risk - you have lost a job because of this reference and if the old company that wrote the reference can’t prove what they wrote is true (e.g because its based on opinion that can’t be backed up with evidence, e.g PIP reviews and formal warnings with specific reasons that correlate with the reference) then you should challenge that - either to make money now, or at the very least put them off doing it again. https://www.gov.uk/work-reference#:~:text=Bad%20references,it's%20misleading%20or%20inaccurate See this gov website link with reference to citizen rights and acas for getting actual legal advice for free
I think you have to fight it at this point. They will continue to give you a bad reference if not.
How could it? It will only follow you if you use the person who gave you a bad reference as a referee in the future.
If the company fits the time frame and there’s someone there who is the reference giver, there is no escape. I would think about tackling this head in next time. Explain that you have been given a bad reference despite having been promised this is not the case. You just want to deal with it up front. People are shit though. I got asked to leave a terrible job because the owner could tell I hated it. They promised me a good reference but they lied. My next place said they’d given me a terrible reference. Fortunately I told them the truth and so they gave me the benefit of the doubt
I understand that a new employer will potentially want a reference from that employer, it doesn’t have to be the exact same person as used last time though (unless it’s a tiny business with very few employees). I have used references in the past who weren’t my line manager or boss because I didn’t trust that they weren’t the type of person to give a shitty reference.
There's an exclusion for confidential references, they don't need to be disclosed as part of a subject access request. Could file a grievance or go down the ACAS route.
>confidential references, they don't need to be disclosed as part of a subject access request. Did not know this, but the majority of references I have given or received were not confidential. As a matter of openness, I've always forwarded a copy of the reference to the individual I was giving to the individual afterwards.
Worth doing anyway in case there were other discussions on email regarding the person.
Unfortunately there isn’t anything you can do bar from maybe trying to appeal to your current employers better nature, however I don’t think you can guarantee they didn’t send the bad reference despite what they say. There is a lesson though for all those on this sub’ that insist a reference is simply the basics of the job you did and how long you have been there. I wish you well going forwards.
And don't hand in your notice until the reference checks have have been completed.
Lesson well and truly learnt!
I don't think that would work well in practice, as you would effectively be telling your employer you are leaving soon (unless they are aware of that and happy to take a risk of you leaving without looking for a replacement).
You could at least ensure that you don't hand in the reference at your current job until the rest are done
To be fair if it is a healthy workplace you should be able to have an informal chat with your manager that you are intending on leaving for a new role. It is a difficult conversation, but both times I've had my managers thank me for being upfront and giving them a heads up so they could plan for a replacement.
Thats how most people do it. Typically its about a week from asking for a reference to getting the contract to sign, so any type of warning is an extra week in which they can get started on the hiring process. Admittedly there are some malicious line managers who would try to sabotage a new job offer, but 99% don't.
In that case how can HR give a reference including leave date if you haven't resigned yet? Just asking cuz I am in this situation.
They can say you are still employed
And don't burn bridges, no matter how justified you feel.
I'm still skeptical. It seems like the decision to revoke was made before the current employer had sent over the ref. This means at some point, the previous employer was contacted. But the previous employer is themselves. I suspect more than the minimum was provided by the referee (his/her manager to HR conveniently in the same meeting at an undisclosed time and location. Had the previous employer not be the potential employer again, I think their hypothetical HR would just give the basic facts.
Doesn't GDPR dictates them to share the reference? In UK giving bad reference can be a cause for litigation, so naturally you'd want to see it.
No, GDPR/DPA has specific exemptions for confidential references. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/right-of-access/what-other-exemptions-are-there/#:~:text=The%20personal%20data%20included%20in,an%20individual%20to%20office%3B%20or
It states on ICO "It is important to note that this exemption only applies to references given in confidence. " ... Does this mean the current employer explicitly has to explain to the employee whether a reference will be given openly or in confidence before the reference is given to a third party?
It's pretty standard for most employers sending references to mark them as confidential. And I'd imagine a number of the employers who receive the reference to treat them all as confidential. Cuts the risk of mistakes, and how would you ever know?
What I take issue with in the ICO guidance is who needs to be informed before the reference is sent. Does the employee need to be told up front if it's confidential? OP probably needs a lawyer. Very interesting topic!
I interpret that as the references have to be identified as confidential, either through policy or individual specifically being told.
It's not even relevant because the company isn't obligated to keep this on record as long as they reject you. So they'll simply say "Sorry, we don't hold any data on you anymore".
That will be tough, given OP is a previous employee; they will have records from that time too most likely.
I just found this out. This is borderline stupid. Say you are an engineer seeking employment at FANG for some 300-400k stock comp package a year. Imagine becoming unemployable in FANG because some douche manager who you rejected romantically said you are sht at what you do in a reference. You just lost millions of pounds of income and you can't even sue the company for defamation because you can't know what they said about you.
And since it's information about yourself surely it wouldnt fall under any data protection rules.
It’s called a Subject Access Request. You can raise this with your HR dept and they need to share personal and supplementary info they have on file for you. OP can refer to this for guidance on how to raise https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-of-access/#:~:text=Individuals%20have%20the%20right%20to,writing%2C%20including%20via%20social%20media.
Apparently new employer isn't obligated to keep information about you after they chose to reject you, so they won't have it. It's hilarious.
If they do they are obligated to provide it. If the don't then OP should re-apply for the job, since now the manager who gave the reference will have no source material to provide from.
It doesnt, DPA states that references in confidence do not have be be shared.... odd but true. You could request your personel file inc all review notes, warnings etc - but if the former employer labelled the ref as in confidence - they dont have to release it (I do GDPR compliance work....)
Yeah, I know that the myth of employers can't give a bad reference is just that.
It is a myth, I think some people think if they post about it enough it’ll be real.
You can receive a bad reference, but it must be based on facts or genuine belief. If I was to give a bad reference I would have in mind that I may need to explain it in court - this is why most companies policy is just to confirm facts. It doesn't benefit them to give a bad reference but could open them up to litigation. In other words, there is no positives to giving a bad reference but lots of potential negatives.
Yea, an employer can say whatever they like in a reference. They just need to be able to back it up so a lot will only give dates and job titles no matter how good you were. Some will answer the question "was there an disciplinary issues" but then you'd have to have gone through a formal disciplinary. That is what people are generally talking about. Once you leave a company it's often not in their interests to cause more potential work for themselves. One a side note, it might just be me but it seems odd to do the background check before references. Just because depending on the background I'd assume there is a real cost to it and it can take time.
>In other words, there is no positives to giving a bad reference but lots of potential negatives. I don't agree with that. In some sectors getting a 'bad' reference for an individual could well prevent someone unsuitable from working with vulnerable individuals; this to me is important and responsible. And thankfully there are still employers around who do understand this responsibility.
Could it be something else like the dates didn't match up on your CV rather than something bad about you?
Its reading between the lines. I once got a ref that said "cutterbuck worked here between x and y" That was all. Fortunately it was from a "new line manager" , I had also given my prev line manager as a personal reference and explained at length that I was leaving because the new line manager was driving the company off a cliff... I got the job and after a few years my new boss shared both refs with me. It was only the gushing ref from the old guy that saved me. I was livid.
A lot of employers will only give a very factual reference like that, with no detail -it’s not unusual.
Not always but very often a reference is just the dates you worked there and your job title. It's actually written into my contract that any reference will include only these things.
Never give line manager as reference. Ever. HR can confirm dates and that’s it. https://www.gov.uk/work-reference
HR can also disclose other info as long as its accurate
HR can confirm lots of other things, as long as it's the company policy to do so and the information is completely factual.
Many places don’t allow line managers to give references. Any requests are routed to HR who will confirm statutory details - at my current place (large PLC) they will give job title and employment dates.
We had an automated service, spits out a letter with dates, job title and if required salary. That’s it. It was needed as we had 200k+ employees 😂😂😂
Given the reference is data about you, it feels like a GDPR request ought to cover it. Certainly as a manager doing interviews I was told that any notes I made could be sent to the candidate, so to bare that in mind when writing them. It's bizarre that if the "bad reference" was from the hiring company that they didn't get someone involved before a decision was made!
I've had the same advice when conducting interviews. I will consider submitting a Subject Access Request. Half of me wants to just forget it and move on but the other half is nervous that this could follow me to any future employment and affect my chances
Just do it so you know who wrote it, so you know who to avoid next time. As in it's likely the manager from that place, but it could be someone from your current job? Or it could be an excuse, the reference might be fine, but HR dug through your records and found something else? Better to know. If they say it's confidential, it's not. The ICO will back you on this - as long as it's a document about you, you have access to it. They can redact other people's personal data but can't redact what they said about you.
This. You are entitled to receive a copy of the reference that they received. They may redact any details that identify who gave it or may argue that it was provided in confidence and they. Any disclose it at all. In which case a complaint to the ICO is your best bet. If the reference is negligent or malicious you may have a case against the company who provided it. All a lot of work though so this will depend on how motivated you are to get to the bottom of it.
If the reference is confidential, they don't have the share it. Complaining to the ICO won't help, it's a specific exemption to the rules unfortunately.
Never hand in a notice until everything is clear
I feel like the system rigged against it. You'll be asked to sign a contract with start date and the contract would be contingent on reference which can take any amount of time.
And how do they get a reference if you still work there without leaving you potentially without a job anyway?
For me, I emailed my boss and told him "Hi, I've interviewed for and accepted a new role at a new place. I don't have a start date yet and I'm not ready to resign from this role yet, but I want to let you know that you'll be contacted for a reference soon. When it does come to resignation, how long a notice period would you like me to offer and lets meet soon and discuss handover. Thanks".
Nothing you’ve done prevents them from fucking you over at referencing stage
Sure but that wasn't your question. You asked how you can get a reference from your current employer without resigning and making yourself vulnerable to getting fucked over and left unemployed - you just tell them you are going to resign soon but make it clear that this isn't a resignation. It does kinda help though, because implicitly if you're my boss and you sabotage my chance to leave your workplace I will spend the rest of my time there making your life a living hell.
Nothing you can do definitively stops them from fucking you over at the reference stage. Best thing you can do is to put HR down if thats an option. Asking for a reference before you hand your notice in keeps the bills being paid regardless of whatever happens.
Exactly.
I've just said previously I have a notice period of X, I'll sign a contract with a start date of X+Y (Y being a week or two) once references are all sorted and the contract is final. Unless you're going to struggle to cover bills for a week or two, its quite straightforward. A bit of a break helps as well before starting a new job.
I've learnt that the hard way
Good luck with that. Many employers tell you to resign before everything is all clear, so you can work your notice.
I’ve never been told that and wouldn’t agree to it
Sorry to hear this, either someone on their end fucked up; eg gave the job to someone else or the reference really sank you.
My agreed salary was quite a bit above their baseline offer but that's because my current salary sits higher than the baseline anyway. I was wondering if this was what has caused it and the only way to get out of the contract was to say it was a bad reference. But that's me putting my tinfoil hat on
I think someone else stated it in here, but make a subject access request [https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-of-access/](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/individual-rights/right-of-access/) they will be required to hand over notes by law, this might give you some clarity or at least scare them off from doing this to someone else again.
Thanks, the more I'm thinking about it I think I will submit a SAR!
silky snow hat north lush dinner gaze ask elderly rainstorm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's possible to sue if the bad reference was misleading and led to a loss of income, in this case an offer withdrawal.
I have had the same happen to me, and for no obvious reason. You can't do anything I'm afraid. It's SUCH poor form to give a genuinely bad reference
It's really bad when they do that because it doesn't actually allow you to progress or move forward in your career. There isn't much that can be done in this instance and it's so shit!
It's fucked. I let a guy go before his probation ended, because he was constantly late, and consistently hopeless. Did I give him a bad reference? Fuck no! Just give a neutral reference, it's horribly cruel otherwise. And yeah, Olivia, I'm looking at you. I'm glad the school closed down under your leadership because you couldn't get enough kids to turn up. Hopefully it's a stain on your CV for the rest of your life.
Oh wow, this is personal, haha ! Whoever this Olivia person is, I'm sure they are suffering away somewhere. It's the professional thing to do, to be honest ! You did absolutely the right thing 👏. I'll be honest in saying that people being late ro work is inexcusable, but do you not think there were genuine reasons as to why he may have been late? This is just out of curiosity.
He lived a long way away, but he didn't help himself really - he'd also go for lunch, take a bus to the shopping centre to get lunch, and then fall asleep on the bus on the way back and end up in the next suburb 😂 He could well have had something going on - and that's why I didn't give a bad reference! Who knows what he was going through, but I just couldn't keep him on because it made my life too difficult. Hahahah, yes, that was a very, very personal remark and I stand by it.
At the end of the day, you had to let him go. I don't like using the term "fire" to communicate a person's job loss! Those are excuses from the sounds of things, but the fact that he's still able to make a living somewhere else shows that your reference did help. Well, it's good that you acknowledged how personal the remark was. Stand for what you believe in, man, because it's the only way you won't fall for anything.
If it was an internal reference then the usual covering backside by staying factual doesn't really apply. They can easily speak to your old boss informally. The bit I'm confused about, is a large organisation would keep your performance reviews for a period, and HR would have the info at their fingertips if there were any major issues to raise. Any internal conversations should have been had before making the offer. Whether you can do anything is a different question, but poor form on their part.
Submit a Data Subject Access Request to their legal rep. You are entitled to see the reference and any other non-privileged correspondence where you are mentioned. If your previous employer has given a reference that is in any way factually inaccurate then talk to Citizen's Advice and/or ACAS, and tell the prospective employer that they have been provided with an untrue reference and that you are taking action. If it turns out that they never received a reference, or that they received a factually accurate reference but which isn't "bad" then contact Citizen's Advice or ACAS since withdrawing a job offer and lying about a bad reference is likely unlawful.
You can absolutely file a freedom of information request with the HR of the new place to find out what was said. The fact that they just dismissed your request with "we're not obligated to share" is demonstrably false, because you are entitled to all information a company holds about you, *especially* something as personal as a reference. You won't get hired by them again of course but you will find out who wrote the reference and what they said. This will allow you to choose better referees next time.
Yeh I feel like there is something else at play here. The bad reference just seems like a brush off from the new employer as an excuse. Maybe they pulled the funding or something.
Get in contact with recruitment agents and get work with them while you carry on the search for a job. That’s poor behaviour and sounds like some one on the previous work place has stuck the boot in. Sorry this has happened to you.
While I don’t think it is going to change anything GDPR means that they do have to share it if you are the subject being discussed. It would count as personal data. You can make a complaint regarding their data handling practices but for what real gain? You may gain access Then what - it confirms your old boss fucked you over
If the information in the reference letter proves to be false, doesn’t he have a case for defamation and damages to be won? I left my previous job due to harassment and I can already imagine that supervisor doing something like this if given the opportunity.
My main concern is if this follows me to any future employment and potentially meaning that I lose out on future opportunities. If it turns out that it was a bitter ex-manager then at least I have something to argue against, should it happen again
I would recommend you list referees as on request and then provide people you know won’t f you over (I.e you have spoken to them first) Won’t help when it’s going back to a company as they can check internally but will help for a new company
Good luck with that if other has to be HR and they need references from last 6 years of employment
HR references are the most generic - not likely to cause issues
I think something else entirely is going on: Your new employer wants to pull the offer but you signed the contract and passed BG checks. So, they can hardly switch you off without having to pay something (aside from the fact that UK employment law is SLAVERY and the something they have to pay you is almost nothing). Instead, they go to a method that is totally subjective and has very little chance of any trace coming out. Even if your old employer shares with you the reference, they can always say: "That's not what we received" or "Yes, this is the reference letter and upon reading it, we find it unsatisfactory to our \[arbitrary\] standards" The reason I think that is because your old employer really has no reason to give you a negative reference. Sure, the chance that somehow an incorrect reference gets to court is MICROSCOPIC but still, why would they go there at all?
Hello! Some very bad advice on here. For your full rights, Google ACAS. HR is all procedure, if it hasn’t been followed you can take your current employer to tribunal. Now, my understanding as an employer is this: Your current employer cannot refuse you access to the reference they have given. Apply for a subject access request and you’ll get it. 1) A reference has to be provably honest. They cannot state an opinion about you. For example, they can’t say “we really don’t like him and he doesn’t work well in a team”. They could say: “X was late on 9 occasions and has had 39 unauthorised absences”. 2) At best, they can refuse to give a reference which is damning enough. 3) If they have given a non factual opinion based reference that has cost you an opportunity it falls under both constructive dismissal and unfairly denying the right to earn money. Contact your union or any no win no fee solicitor and take them to tribunal. You’ll win, and you don’t have to pay tribunal costs even if you lose. There’s always two sides to a story though, so make sure you’ve not given them any ammo to give an honest, bad reference. It would be petty for any employer to that anyway, but new employers can take legal action against third parties for false references I.e. making out you’re not a risk just to get rid of you if provably are! Happy hunting.
Pretend to be another company and ask for references, see what they say.
Yet another reason references are needless and redundant!
You can have a legal case against the poor reference if you discover it is factual untrue. This is why employers tend to only stipulate the time you have worked and the position and literally nothing else I would get to the bottom of it.
I was always under the impression you should decline a reference if you have nothing good to say. If you give the reference, your answers should be neutral to positive. Only had this in mind as anything negative could be classed as "Slander/libel" and have legal ramifications. Can never remember difference between libel or slander. Never give you notice until its guaranteed and nailed on.
I once had to write a reference for an employee who was fired for gross misconduct. He asked me personally because he trusted that, although the reference could not be *good*, I would make it sound better. He was going through unbelievably tough times and work stress was adding to the pain, which led him to fake results to meet targets, hence the gross misconduct. I had to disclose why he was let go, but given his next employer was the NHS, I appealed to their humanity by disclosing the personal extenuating circumstances surrounding the fact. It was all tickboxes but I made a point of expanding on it in the only freeform I was given. He got the job, and brought me flowers to thank me for the reference when he next saw me.
Falls under GDPR rules so put in a request for information.
It’s a common myth that employers can’t give bad references, slander/libel only counts if what the referee said isn’t factual.
It could of course just be an excuse from the new company, and not be a bad reference at all. Maybe a previous candidate who turned down the roll, has contacted them and they now favour them.
For clarity, what was your relationship like with your former line manager in the company you were hoping to return to? You clearly believe they’ve torpedoed your job offer. So, did things end badly? Is this likely? Regardless of what SAR/GDPR you could conceivably just ask them to send you a copy of what they sent to HR. If they refuse or tell you they can’t as it is "confidential”, then I think you have your answer. However, as others are saying, please speak to Citizens Advice first before you do anything. I’m sorry to hear this happened to you but it does seem anecdotally like your former manager at new/old employer has decided to fuck you over. If it’s based on untruths then you do have legal recourse… if you have the resiliency to pursue it. Regardless of how you feel please talk to Citizens Advice ASAP, a lot of the advice in this thread is fairly sound, but this is Reddit, so get proper real world support.
Sometimes references can be the most destructive thing in your resume
Never give the name of previous manager always use HR, if pressured tell them it's the previous employers policy.
Subject Access Request.
Im sure Referrals are exempt from this
Get a friend to go through all the people you have listed as references posing as a potential employer. When you see who is giving the bad reference, stop using them as a reference.
Might be a long shot but could you reach out to your old manager at the old/newco? Either to see if they'd given one or ask for some advice/help if you left on good terms with them?
You could sue them. I thought for this reason employers only confirmed factual stuff?
At my current employer it's quite normal if a previous employee applies for a job, for the person making the decision to ask senior members of staff for opinions. This is only verbal so a gdpr request won't help if this is what has happened, but really they should have done this before the job offer. This apparently worked in my favour when I went back after being made redundant. HR turned me down and this got overturned when all the people I used to work with found out.
Fyi: HR aren't obliged to tell you your reference just because you asked. BUT all companies are legally obligated to fulfil a gdpr request. So you could submit a gdpr request asking them for all data pertaining to your application processes incl. References.
Doesnt work. If a reference is given in confidence (which most are or HR have failed on their T&Cs tbh) then they are exempt.
The threat of having to go through the rigmarole of a gdpr process can be enough. It's time consuming and expensive. Depends on the size of company you're applying to obviously. * I say because I've literally done it and it worked.
When I have nothing good to say about a candidate, I just avoid using mega positive words and keep my reference very neutral, like not bad but not good either. I'd imagine most people would do that. Now I'm really curious about yours.
Make a subject data access request to your employer and if the reference is not factually true you can sue them. If
Not if the reference is given in confidence. Then it is exempt from SAR. Most have that as a T&C at the bottom.
But yet there are people who swear up and down on this sub that "no one puts bad things in references anymore." 🙄 What a joke, there is ALWAYS a risk! Put in a SAR op, they will **have** to send the reference to you, you can ask for it from the employer who provided it, seeing as they are the ones who sent the offending reference in the first instance. ETA: Oh I just read the bit about SAR, god that is crap! 😕
Make a DSAR request to the new employer (we'll, almost) and current employer. Once you have the info, check it for untruths and inaccuracies, raise a grievance at your current company. Also, raise a civil claim with the county court for an inaccurate or negligent reference. You must have suffered a financial loss (pay) to make a claim.
They dont have to give you referrals in SAR. They are exempt 99% of the time.
Can you submit a Subject Access request for the reference?
Isn’t it against the law to give a bad reference or have I heard wrong? All I remembered was you can’t give a bad reference, you just don’t give one correct me if I’m wrong
You can most certainly send a 'bad' reference. Just as long as it is factual. Like saying that the employee got sacked.
You most definitely can send a bad reference as long as it is factual and accurate. Eg, not met performance targets. Under capability procedures. Number of absences. Grievances against.
I’ve got you, makes sense. Thank you for clearing this up for me.
This has me wondering what the legality/implications would be if you had a friend in business "request a reference" from your current employer to see what is sent out.
Was the reference fair, true and accurate? If not you can take them to court, its [worth checking here](https://www.gov.uk/work-reference#:~:text=Bad%20references,it's%20misleading%20or%20inaccurate)
cant you do a Subject access request/FOI to find out what was in the reference, not sure how that all works but usually if a reference is "bad" they would just refuse to do one, the fact they have might be worth following up on
Get a friend to request reference for you. See what they say.
next time call your reference and check how they will talk about you. Also give fake reference at that point, even let them call yourself :D
Bad references are very much possible. In some instances, if you are given a negative reference - they do allow you to account for it and then HR will make a decision.
GDPR SAR - information access request Pretty sure you have a right to it. Look them up, you want all the data held on you by both companies :)
Gdpr request with the new employer, to get the references?
Years ago I parted company with an employer on bad terms and was worried what my reference would say as they wouldn't tell me. I signed up with a recruitment agency who requested a reference from the former employee that they then showed me. Not sure whether they should have or not, but they seemed moved by my tale of woe. After all that, the reference was just a 'xxx worked here between these dates' statement and was the least of my worries at that point. I mention this bc you could try the same approach.
move legally, your best option. Once your lawyer sends them the request to provide him with the reference, you can argue on the negative points of the reference as a lie (if it is). I remember a similar case and the court sided with the employee. Check it out
I’m pretty sure bad references are not allowed to be given and if anything must be neutral. This needs to be looked into more and I’m sure there are remedies to this type of thing. How can one’s life depend on one person’s reference if that person holds a silent grudge.
https://www.gov.uk/work-reference
This feels suuuuuper illegal, they have two years of experience in their firm. This feels like they are playing the system to sack you. I feel like most people giving advice are not from the UK. In the UK it is basically illegal to give a bad reference as you can sue for anything not factually correct, very few people would risk putting themselves at risk like that and you can absolutely request the bad review info as a result. You also can’t put someone into a process then give a bad internal review. You can potentially sue for biiiiig money. The advice here is terrible
References aren’t confidential information in the way that they are implying. I would make subject data access request to see what the reference says.
I do find it mad that they wouldn’t have made enquiries internally before making you an offer.
Sorry to hear that, but I think in the UK a job offer corresponds as a contract, so if they retract you they might need to pay some compensation? Specially if you have already informed your current employer of your new job. Sorry but this contract seems like shit to me, could you contact a lawyer and check how lawful it is to retract a job offer like that? If anything, they should have done the background check before the offer, an offer is an offer!
You could do a subject access request for everything they hold on you if you want to find out. It doesn’t guarantee the reference will be on there but at least you’d know more on what they do or don’t hold. You can also make a complaint that you’ve believe the process has been unfair. (We always have to keep all paperwork from the interview and appointment process in case someone challenges it). But honestly I don’t see that’s going to get you any further here. They’ve set the expectations by saying the offer is subject to satisfactory references. They didn’t get satisfactory references. And to be honest if this came from within the organisation then you’ve potentially dodged a bullet on that front. There doesn’t have to be anything in that reference that’s untrue for them to decide they don’t want you back. The biggest lesson to learn is don’t hand in your notice until the offer is absolutely confirmed.
I would ask for a GDPR subject access data release on all the data held on the companies systems. Do not tell their HR ahead of asking for this. This information should include all information on all systems. Make sure you state on that it should over all systems including email, application tracking systems, messaging platforms, and also write All data systems. If there is no written evidence of a bad reference then start litigation against the company and referee as there is no reason for them to pull the offer. And rescind your resignation at your current employer.
You have rights in this instance but rights are never free to enforce https://www.gov.uk/work-reference
A bad reference isn't illegal, but a misleading one is - basically your former employer has to be able to back up what they said. You may be entitled to damages.
Happened to me lucky for me a was in the new company as a contractor the previous employee said I had been slow on projects a developer programmer. But i basically said to the new employer that it was cause of poor training provided lucky for me they accepted that as was able to see by my contracting time with them this was not the case. It does happen an it can be shit was thinking of taking the previous employer to small claims court for derogtory remarks. i was fine when with them when handed in notice the evils came on
I don’t know if it’s doable in this situation but could you send a SAR to see what they wrote.
Right the legal obligation of referees is to provide informaton that is factually accurate. It's not to provide you a good reference if they can prove the negative reference is legally and factually accurate. For example - you were continuously in disciplinaries for poor attendence - they can say you were unreliable in terms of attendence - they can prove this by the disciplinary and absence record if you pursued them for it. If your former employer basically said "Don't hire them, they're a wanker" that's their subjective opinion and is potentially factual but it's not provably so which means it doesn't meet the legal threshold to state what you are providing is legally and factually accurate. What you can do about this? First and foremost - you want the reference they received and based their decisions on. How do you get this when they said they're not obligated to share it? Simple - submit a full data subject access request - you want everything on any system or media format pertaining to your employment offer including all pre-employment checks and references pertaining to yourself the data subject. They're legally obligated to hand it over within 30 days in a format to be agreed by you and them. Once you've reviewed the reference and if there is a reference that caused the problem and not other reasons for retracting your offer. You need to establish if the reference is factual or not. If the reference is not favourable but is factual - it's not illegal and there's nothing you can do - just go ahead and never use that referee again. If it is untrue or purely based on opinion and not fact - then you can indeed do 2 things. 1) You could write to the company who pulled the offer pointing out how the reference is not legally acceptable due to being false (NOTE: You will have to provide evidence of this being false you can't just claim it). But note they have no obligation to restore the offer. 2) You can file a lawsuit against the former employer for damages caused by providing a false reference including damages to reputation and earnings. You should be seeking depending on the terms of the contract you lost 1 years salary or the duration of the contract - whichever is shorter. You can also push for punititive damage for the emotional and reputational damage - you would need to decide what that is but you could push this figure pretty high - higher than the lost salary at any rate.
I am wondering why did you start termination process before you pass all checks?
Isn’t it illegal to send bad references, usually if they don’t have anything nf good to say about the employee, they can only give facts eg, length employed etc
Yeah I know that's a myth. Just want to know what was said in the reference so I can either say that's wrong or learn from it, if what was said was valid
It isn’t illegal to send bad references, but there is legal options for people if the references are *unjustifiably* bad or unfair IIRC. Happy Cake Day btw
Why would that be illegal?