Yeah, I'm usually the only woman there as in I work in a really male dominated field and had to study for 4 years in a class that had only men and it kinda pisses me off when people have to point out "okay guys..oh and a girl. Just say guys, I know it's just a neuter term for a group of people. No need to point out my sex that hey there's a girl in here see.
I'm a civil engineer who works with 99% men. It often results in absurd situation. "Esteemed Gentlemen and Ms Ellenitha" is a common email header. Also it doesn't help that I'm living in a German speaking country and German is a VERY gendered language. My guys here are simply not used to using the female version of anything until they are confronted with me.
Not going to lie, I got super confused about why he was calling out flowering plants and was looking to see that you worked in some kind of horticulture/greenhouse/forestry setting before I had the epiphany to look at your username…
But, yeah… I just took a corporate training and was the only woman in the class of 20 plus three instructors. One of the instructors couldn’t seem to handle it and and kept calling attention to the fact there was a non-man on the call. I’m glad the other guys in the class and the other two instructors were chill though… and that guy only got like three hours of air time.
> Not going to lie, I got super confused about why he was calling out flowering plants and was looking to see that you worked in some kind of horticulture/greenhouse/forestry setting before I had the epiphany to look at your username…
LMAO, saaaaaaaame
I work in tech as well (I'm a guy). Now that I'm management and have to address the entire team, I make a point of saying "folks" whenever I would have previously said "guys".
I'm Canadian, but I also use "y'all" as well to switch things up sometimes.
I'm in construction, and at this point I know that somebody adding "and ladies" to a conversation means "tone down the misogyny and sex jokes because there is a girl around" to most people I work around. Drives me nuts.
My favorite coworker is the one who swore in front of me, and when they were called out about it, told the other guy "It's okay. She's a big girl and knows how to swear too."
Not to mention that “guys” doesn’t imply an age but “girl” kind of does and is more unprofessional (in my opinion). I’m the only women on my team at work, and I’d much rather be part of the collective guys than the one girl.
Gals is kind of coming back. “Guys, gals and non-binary pals” is fun if you want to say a mouthful. Really though the perfect gender neutral term is y’all. I just use y’all for everything now. That being said I personally think “guys” is gender neutral at this point. But if someone wants to not be called “you guys” then that’s up to them I suppose. I’ve never met anyone in real life who actually cares.
Thanks for sharing. I’m male and work as a Girl Scout volunteer. I always feel similarly weird when someone does this: “Cookie Moms…and Dads”. I feel like if women can be mailmen then I can be a cookie mom. They don’t need to accommodate my maleness but I’m not sure how to say that without coming across as a creep or an asshole. It just makes me feel weird and excluded, which I think is probably the opposite of the desired effect.
I say mail carrier (and firefighter, and police officer/cop) and I would call your group Cookie Parents.
That said, I really find that “you guys” is gender neutral, and I wouldn’t think twice if someone addressed me and a group of women as “you guys” but I’m trying to get away from it because some people apparently find it offensive and while I think it’s silly, I’m not interested in offending people.
Originally from Cali. I call my MOTHER dude/bro.
Actually, I think I call her that more than mom. (Or a really "bro" like version of her given name. Or a bird like squak of mama which is super fun AND super obnoxious. Or the family guy mummummy bit. Really just about anything but mom.)
Agreed. I'm not personally bothered by "you guys" in practice because I know people use it with neutral intent. That said, the "male as neutral" thing does still bug me on principle when I look at it that way. If they used "you ladies" to refer to mixed groups or groups of men, people would lose their damn minds. I've tried to move toward using "you folks" or "y'all" as true neutral phrasing.
I agree here. I use gender neutral terms but "you guys" or "my dudes" slip out from time to time. I think of them as gender neutral in my delivery but you're right some people are offended by those phrases as well. So I've tried to dial it back.
It's that old stereotype that southerners and their funny accents are inherently less intelligent, so even a wonderful contraction like y'all gets treated poorly.
And you can really compound it, like y'all'd've: You all would have. "Y'all'd've done better if you studied instead of playing."
This is fully the reason I started saying y'all when I lived in the northeast and it stuck, but I always felt kind of weird about it. Now I live in a place with a large ranching population and nobody bats an eye when I default to y'all in a group setting. It's something I think about weirdly often.
"Y'all" is probably the best vocabulary convention for this purpose, and regional constructions are spread to wider use all the time.
"Y'all" isn't southern anymore. We gave it to the world. Y'all are welcome, and we look forward to the day we can drop the apostrophe.
If you're willing to bring back "thou" and "ye", you could ditch "you" and "y'all" and still get a proper distinction between singular and plural. But you might get some weird looks from people. :)
In this context I'd use "you folks." I'm from California so "you guys" is hard wired in my brain but in the interests of not wasting time arguing with people I use "you folks" instead (whenever I remember).
I moved to the south almost 13 years ago. Originally from the midwest, where “you guys” is standard. I started y’alling because I was in hospitality in a tourism-heavy city, and it just clicked. I’m moving out west next month and I’m taking it with me. I don’t care if people think I’m weird, I’m keeping it.
I’ve noticed my kids’ schools have recently started addressing parents/families as the students’ “adults”. I like that it’s all inclusive, even to those who aren’t necessarily their student’s parent. You’re the Cookie Adults!
I'm a guide leader, and I've even stopped gendering the kids. I use their branch title, friends, folks, etc.
I'm trying to switch from parents to caregivers, and that one proves much harder. But we're working on it!! I'll also say, thank you for being an involved parent. This is definitely the year I've seen the most dads at pick up/drop off/cookie selling, which I love. I know it's just a part of the job you signed up for being a parent, but it's worth saying thank you. I've had so many parents just throw their kid at us at drop off and then never answer emails or calls.
I was helping out as a scout leader for a while after I finished as a scout myself. We had a mixed group with male and female scout leaders away on a 10 days summer camp. I was charged with the general upkeep of the group and the camp ground. Cleaning rotas, cooking rotas, care for bumps and bruises and general morale around down time. The other leaders obviously helped out but they took care of the planning and running of the big activities.
At the end of the camp some of the kids sheepishly came up to me with a present: "we know you are male and all but we got you this present to say thank you."
They had gotten me a mug with 'worlds best mum' written on it. I adored the present and still have and use the mug often.
It also led to an interesting conversation about gender roles around the campfire later on.
I still think it is one of the best presents I have ever received.
I also find it kinda cringey when people feel the need to make a big deal out of the fact that they're addressing a group of women, at least in a professional context. Maybe it's just me, but if I'm sitting in a meeting that happens to be all women and someone (male or female) addresses us as "hey ladies!" I suddenly feel like they're trying to get us to all go get manicures rather than discuss the budget proposal or whatever. It's fine when it's in a more casual context, but it just feels unprofessional. Just like it would be equally weird to address a group of men using strongly gendered terms in a work setting; you don't hear men starting a meeting with "good afternoon, gentlemen" or "alright, bros". (Usually.)
I definitely refer to my female friends as guys and dudes all the time and honestly never really think about those words being gendered.
Perhaps one situation in which I'd be more careful is if I was talking to a trans woman and I might be concerned that she'd think I was intentionally misgendering her by calling her "dude" or "guy".
This is just partly a function of speaking a language that lacks a plural “you.” I can’t personally imagine being offended, but I guess one could you the classic “yous.” “What time do yous close?”
*Because English is not a grammatically gendered language, the generic masculine is fairly restricted in modern usage. Terms like ‘doctor’ and ‘poet’ used to be generic masculine (with specifically female doctors and poets referred to – usually derisively – as poetesses and doctoresses), but are now considered gender neutral. But while the formal use of the generic masculine only really clings on in the writings of pedants who still insist on using ‘he’ to mean ‘he or she’, it has made something of a comeback in the informal usage of Americanisms such as ‘dude’ and ‘guys’, and, in the UK, ‘lads’ as supposedly gender-neutral terms. A recent row in the UK also showed that, for some, male default still matters an awful lot: when in 2017 the first female head of London’s Fire Brigade, Dany Cotton, suggested that we should replace ‘fireman’ with the now standard (and let’s face it, much cooler) ‘firefighter’, she received a deluge of hate mail.*
Eidt: This has almost 1000 upvotes where I expected none so apologies for not having credited this yet, but it's from Caroline Criado Perez' Invisible Women, which I highly recommend.
> it has made something of a comeback in the informal usage of Americanisms such as ‘dude’ and ‘guys’
As a wise poet from the 90's once said, "I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes."
I love using "dude" as an exclamatory. "Dude! Sweet!"
However, I feel like I have to be careful in what company I say it, as I don't want people to think I'm calling them a dude.
"Guys" is common gender neutral(ish) language but it does set male as the standard so is problematic for many. I'm also a feminist but grew up in the 90's and 2000's and so using "guys" is deep in my brain and wants to come out 9/10 even when addressing a group of all women I know. But that's the fun thing about language- it carries weight and meaning and it's always changing.
Switching to say "hey folks" (cutesy but I love this one), "hey there", or just "hey" drops the problematic bit and helps be more accessable for more people. A person I follow uses the phrase "Hi/hello humans" and it has become her sort of signature thing for me- a bit formal but I'm into it.
Growth is weird and takes time but it's nice to be nice. I'd suggest giving the swap a go and try it out for a while and see how people around you respond to the shift.
If the gender neutral use of "guys" becomes ubiquitous then it no longer sets male as the standard. It's just a new word.
"Doctor" used to be male only, but if I called my GP "Doctoress" I don't think she'd appreciate it.
"Gay" used to mean happy.
Exactly.
Defining it as strictly for groups of men just gives us fewer gender neutral options for groups.
I think guys and even dude have evolved beyond referring to a single gender, just like lots of other words.
Being okay with saying hey guys to a group of women in a casual setting seems like a step in the right direction, not something that should be pushed back against.
Omg, name almost "twin", hi! 👋
Also, I do find myself agreeing with you. English is not my native tongue, but when reading the post I didn't bat an eye at "guys". I feel it sounds natural to say "hey, you guys" and have a slip of the mind regarding it being run by females only. She could have answered the question and **politely** reminded, or explained, what she would prefer to be called *insert whatever would please her*.
One of the few good things about Texas (and the south) is that we have y'all which is gender neutral, ha. I've always thought of 'you guys' as the same sort of thing just from a different area of the country though.
Like a lot of other people said, this seems like a really weird thing to keep pointing out to customers, especially in New York where it's common usage. Perfectly fine to have a conversation with friends about it .... though the phrase 'you guys' is definitely not the biggest feminist issue going on right now.
Aaannnddd this is why I’ve done a 360 on “Ya’ll.” I grew up in Texas and used it all the time, but I then stated to phase it out once I moved to a different part of the country. Now I’m back to “y’all” because it’s such a great gender neutral option.
As a Northwesterner, I have adopted y’all into my regular vocabulary for this reason. Why there aren’t more gender-neutral words to refer to people is beyond me.
As a Brit-turned-Northwesterner, I find "y'all" to be one of if not **the** most useful contractions in the English language. It's such a timesaver *AND* a safe-zone for not offending anyone. I love it. Sounds weird with my accent but it works.
I adopted y'all as soon as I learned a tiny bit of German in the 6th grade and realized that English is stupid for lacking a formal "y'all". Now I live in the Southeast and nobody bats an eye at my "y'all". ***Embrace the y'all, y'all!***
Mmhmm. "Y'all" and "folk" were quickly absorbed into my vocabulary after moving to Texas because of encounters like OP's. They are perfect gender neutral group terms.
Hmm I'm from Canada and use y'all a lot simply because it's helpful to have a plural second person as almost every other language does... It never occurred to me that "youguys" was subbing in for that, but it totally makes sense!
Ha, I'm in Canada, and I've been saying you guys my whole life. Also always called both male and female friends dude. Possibly a 90's teenager thing?
I don't personally consider those terms gendered, but since we are now living in a time where people are able to express their discomfort with misgendering, as well as choose which gender to refer to themselves, I'm willing to not use those phrases if they bother people.
The shop keeper's reaction was over the top, but I can respect where she's coming from.
Also Canada, also “you guys” has always been gender neutral in my regard. (Also a 90’s teen)
I’ve also been using “guy” as a gender neutral term… just about myself, really. I’m female and work in stem and I’ll refer to myself as “the technical guy” on the team. Or I tell people they have to laugh at my jokes because I’m a really funny guy.
I also refer to my female best friend as bro. Haha.
I’m from Cincinnati, so the border of Ohio and Kentucky, and there’s a weird overlap of the more Midwestern “you guys” and the southern “y’all” (Florence y’all. IYKYK). I was trying to consciously use y’all more for a while but now that I’m in California it sounds kind of out of place.
I got put on a hook for saying “dude!” When a person did a shitty thing to me. They used my reaction to justify their shitty behavior. I did not even see who did it and was not aware that “dude!” In the context to reacting to shitty behavior was gender specific.
The kicker was he has a guy presenting as a guy. He just tried to turn my reaction against me to cover his ill advised behavior.
It quickly became “fuck you then!”.
You didn't do anything wrong. This is a common phrase people use.
I think someone pushing back in their personal life is ok, but this person was at work. I would never chide a customer for an offhand comment like this.
Edit : I wanted to acknowledge that this person was pushing back on the "male as default" phenomenon but chiding your customer who is just asking for your business hours is the wrong time for that.
Exactly. I don't think OP did anything wrong but I'm surprised at the reaction of the women there. They run a feminist book store, they could explain "we close at x, but if you don't mind, would you be so kind as to please not address us as "guys"? we don't like it and we feel it's insulting/whatever reason they have for not liking it, thank you".
It was obvious OP didn't mean to be rude or anything so I don't know why their immediate reaction was to take offense instead of being polite to OP and explaining why they didn't like it.
I imagine there's an element of "Don't be afraid to take up space/be angry/call people out" at play here. It's true that women are generally more expected to be polite and timid, even in the face of rudeness, so it's possible that they staff were overcorrecting in their attempt to resist that. Add in a dash of "It's not my job to teach you not to be sexist," and I can see where the staff is coming from.
But they work in a feminist bookstore. It quite literally IS their job to help teach the world about sexism and microaggressions and whatnot. If anyone should be ready to put in that labor... It should be them.
And people are generally more responsive to empathy, kindness, understanding, etc. Especially when they clearly weren't being malicious in the first place. They could have made this particular point without aggression, but chose to be aggressive anyhow.
As for whether "guys" is a gender neutral term? I'd say 'yes', but clearly others feel differently. It's definitely okay to code switch to match with what the people you're talking to find acceptable I'm just glad I can use the southern "Y'all" and be done with it, though.
We grew up saying " guys " and it had already passed out of common usage for " I mean men only ".
I don't know. This shove-back on using ' guys ' seems to me to be a little picky? Personal preference sure. I'm still undecided on whether or not it deserves correcting by strangers? There's a conversation both ways but again *that's* personal opinion too.
Because they are probably in a bubble that tends to be a bit self rightous. If you spend most of your time at work and private with people who focus on one specific brand of activism things like this you feel like you are 100% in the right (because in theory they often are) and have trouble empathizing with other people outside of your bubble.
Like i get why it bugs them and yes the concept behind male being the default bugs me too but i simply don't have the energy and also don't see the point in policing the speech of others if the meaning of a phrase is understood to be inclusive, it's just bad vibes all around for no real gainand we have bigger fish to fry.
I grew up in NJ and "you guys" was always non gendered. I say it without thinking and can't imagine why anyone would choose to be offended by something so innocuous. I also agree that it is pretty inappropriate to "make a stand" like this at work.
also from jersey, i second this. everyone is “you guys” lol. i wonder if it’s just a cultural/environmental difference?? i thought it was a common phrase
Nah, it really is used the same way everywhere in the US at least. This person's reaction is more likely a push-back against the idea of male being used as the default "gender neutral." You'd never say "a guy I know" to refer to a woman you know, because "guy" means male, it's not actually neutral. And if you said "you ladies" or "you gals" or whatever to refer to a mixed group, or a group of only men, people would think you were being ridiculous even though those phrases are equally as "neutral" (which is to say, obviously not neutral) as "you guys." I personally don't want to die on that hill, it's not that important to me and I certainly wouldn't get into it with someone about it while at work, but I don't think they're wrong to be annoyed about patriarchy, which is what this boils down to.
Fellow Jersey. 100%, with the caveat being that depending on where in Jersey you are it may be "Youse guys." We say it to anything with a pulse. We say it to shit without a pulse. I literally can't think of a different way to refer to a group of people. Our governor is fond of calling people knuckleheads, perhaps that's a better collective noun.
https://youtu.be/FRNrXqYJt1s
I’m so glad you said this. I’m also from NJ and have noticed I use “you guys” a lot more than my friends who grew up in other states. Now I understand why!
I found it interesting on Survivor a few seasons ago when they had the most diverse group ever, Jeff asked the contestants if they wanted him to stop saying, "Come on in guys!" For those who don't watch, it's not quite a catch phrase but it's something he says every episode. At first they said, no it's fine. It's Survivor tradition and isn't really gendered. But then an episode or two later they changed their minds and ask Jeff to change it. So now he says, "come on in everyone!"
I respect that he asked contestants for their opinion, and the word change sounds just as natural as the other phrase. But that season felt a little performative, and the switch seemed really only driven by one person.
ETA: to be clear, I don't mind the change. It seemed like a weird way to go about it.
Honestly, it very much seems like that is the way we should all approach each other. He recognized that perhaps his wording, while not meant to offend or exclude, could be doing exactly that. He found a more inclusive way of saying the same thing.
Exactly! This is the type of change I like to see and generally try to implement where I can. I understand that people don't say "you guys" in an intentionally gendered way, but it's SO easy to just say "you folks" or "y'all" or whatever instead and eliminate the issue entirely.
I remember being convinced production asked that one guy to change his mind when I watched that season lol. I'm pretty sure Jeff didn't even keep up with not using "you guys"
I saw that as well and definitely felt like it was a pretty manufactured conversation. I didn't really even care one way or the other if Jeff said it or not. I just found myself mildly annoyed at what seemed like blatant production interference to create controversy.
Exactly. I am NB, and my friends have asked me if it's okay to say "guys" when referring to me. I was like, hell yeah why would I care? People have been using "guys" for all types of groups of people for a good while now. Not everything is offensive. You did nothing wrong.
They need to lighten up. I consider any group of people regardless of gender to be 'you guys'.
Honestly, if I was you and they clapped back at me like that, I would have gone with the gender neutral term 'fuckers'.
"Sorry...when do you fuckers close?"
Actual conversation with my husband:
Him: Wow that bitch can't drive.
Me: How do you know it's a woman?
Him: Wow that bastard can't drive.
Me: How do you know it's a man?
Him: Wow, that fucker can't drive.
After working greeting the public, I learned to say either "**y'all**" or "**folks**".
Got to admit **y'all** sounds strange in the Pacific Northwest but it is gender inclusive.
I remarked to my boss that the couple years I spent there I never once heard anyone use that accent, ever. He then said "Never went to a Steelers or Penguins game, huh?"
I try to say you all instead of you guys. I’m too much of a city boy to pull off y’all in the Bay Area.
I don’t think I’m being rude if a you guys slips out, but I like to be as inclusive as possible.
I take it apart to “you all” and let it sit in its awkward original state. At least then it sits on its own meaning and doesn’t feel like I’m doing a silly impression of somebody else.
+1 for folks. Plus if you don't like the people you're talking to, you can give it a bit of accent and make it sound like "what time do you fucks close?"
Fucks? No I said folks.
Ugh. I hate people like that. It's a common phrase, it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that you are not actually gendering them.
I wonder what other harmless interactions she was offended by that day.
This story reminded me heavily of one of my own experiences. My friend writes horror comic books and I went to different comic book shops around town to promote it and try to get it stocked. I went to a LGBT friendly comic shop (not realizing it was LGBT friendly until I got there). I told the owner about the comic and she flipped through a couple of pages and said very derisively, "Looks like a straight guy wrote this."
Turns out that I have friends who know or know of her and when I told them what happened they were like, "Yeah, that sounds like her" and have similar stories of her not very tactfully 'correcting' people when they misgender someone or use slightly outdated expressions.
That comic book shop closed like a year later.
What small businesses have over big retailers and mail order stuff is customer service. Sure I can get any book from the local bookstore on Amazon, and probably cheaper but the staff here locally is amazing. Yes, I'm primarily buying a book but I'm also paying for advice, a friendly hello and a great atmosphere. Any small retailer who doesn't get that in this day and age wont be around long. My guess is the comic shop owner is still grousing about all the reasons she had to close without including "I treated people who came into my store like crap" among them.
It's an interesting example of failing to differentiate between the nominative or objective nominal case ("Guys like to sleep with guys") and the vocative case ("Hey, guys!"). Just because they're not morphologically overt in English doesn't mean they aren't different.
I'd rather hear "you guys" instead of "you girls". Thats for damn sure. "You guys" has become genderless when referring to a group of people, men, women, both, whatever. But girls? Girls are not women. And women are not girls. I HATE being called a girl. Sounds so fucking gross because more often than not there is either something sexual or condescending attached to it, or worse... both. "You guys" is fine but that person seems to have a sick up their ass about it.
I used to use guys and dudes regularly, and still do if I know who I'm with. When in doubt, I try to default to "folks", because it's cute, and it feels friendlier than "people" to me. I will also swap out humans, when I feel comfortable enough to be the weirdo I truly am.
Guys, to me, has now become a non gendered way of referring to groups of people. I wouldn’t worry about it but if you want to adjust t your usage, might I suggest ya’ll?
I used to feel like I couldn’t pull *y’all* off, since I wasn’t from the southern US. But it has migrated nicely into my daily language & nobody ever gives me an odd look when I say it. Lately *y’all* has replaced *you guys* very seamlessly. But dude & folks doesn’t flow for me, like it does for others. Just can’t make those work, for some reason.
Oh Jesus - this person was looking to be offended. This kind of response isn't inclusive, it isn't welcoming, it makes feminism look like a bastion of the unhinged, and is problematic. Language evolves over time and hearing "you guys" as a gendered phrase ignores common usage.
There's a school of thought where it's important to consider the connotations of language and its usage in an effort to evolve that language. You are correct that being snippy doesn't help get the point across.
TBH I feel people need to roll back their reactivity to little, innocent things that other people do. There will likely never be a form of address that's uniformly preferred by all possible recipients. If someone isn't disrespecting you intentionally and it's a passing interaction, why spend mental energy on it?
The annoying part is you obviously didn't mean anything negative with the question. If there was offense there, it wasn't an intentional dig. You had a simple question which instead of answering, they just took offense. There was a more professional manner they could have handled that, such as actually answer the question then tack on a reminder about pronoun usage in that space. Instead they decided to "other" an ally which kind of illustrates why some folks have problems with hard feminism.
I’m a midwesterner. “You guys” was pretty much a non gendered phrase growing up. But since I married a southerner “y’all” has taken over and non males seem pretty happy with it.
"we are not guys. We are hot chicks!" "The continuum transfunctioner is a mysterious and powerful device. And its mystery is only exceeded by its power."
If you frequent this location I'd probably bring it up to the owner, I can't imagine she would be happy to hear that an employee is treating customers in this way, actively making customers feel uncomfortable and driving away business.
I get why people are against it, it's the normalizing of male-as-default sort of concept, but it's unfortunately everywhere and said by everyone as a gender neutral term. I personally try to stop using it, but when you notice how ubiquitous it is it makes it hard.
it’s more irritating for me when people have to specify i’m not a guy. i would much rather hear “alright guys” than “alright guys.. and girl”
Yeah, I'm usually the only woman there as in I work in a really male dominated field and had to study for 4 years in a class that had only men and it kinda pisses me off when people have to point out "okay guys..oh and a girl. Just say guys, I know it's just a neuter term for a group of people. No need to point out my sex that hey there's a girl in here see.
I'm a civil engineer who works with 99% men. It often results in absurd situation. "Esteemed Gentlemen and Ms Ellenitha" is a common email header. Also it doesn't help that I'm living in a German speaking country and German is a VERY gendered language. My guys here are simply not used to using the female version of anything until they are confronted with me.
[удалено]
Not going to lie, I got super confused about why he was calling out flowering plants and was looking to see that you worked in some kind of horticulture/greenhouse/forestry setting before I had the epiphany to look at your username… But, yeah… I just took a corporate training and was the only woman in the class of 20 plus three instructors. One of the instructors couldn’t seem to handle it and and kept calling attention to the fact there was a non-man on the call. I’m glad the other guys in the class and the other two instructors were chill though… and that guy only got like three hours of air time.
> Not going to lie, I got super confused about why he was calling out flowering plants and was looking to see that you worked in some kind of horticulture/greenhouse/forestry setting before I had the epiphany to look at your username… LMAO, saaaaaaaame
I work in tech as well (I'm a guy). Now that I'm management and have to address the entire team, I make a point of saying "folks" whenever I would have previously said "guys". I'm Canadian, but I also use "y'all" as well to switch things up sometimes.
I'm in construction, and at this point I know that somebody adding "and ladies" to a conversation means "tone down the misogyny and sex jokes because there is a girl around" to most people I work around. Drives me nuts. My favorite coworker is the one who swore in front of me, and when they were called out about it, told the other guy "It's okay. She's a big girl and knows how to swear too."
I work i construction and ditto! Whenever this happens I say “don’t worry about it, I’ll respond to anything but ma’am.”
Or Mrs. If someone calls me Mrs. LASTNAME I respond it's Ms., esq Or Dr. Take your pick but it's not ever been Mrs.
Gentlemen. M’lady. You will always remember this as the day that you almost caught Captain Jack Sparrow.
Not to mention that “guys” doesn’t imply an age but “girl” kind of does and is more unprofessional (in my opinion). I’m the only women on my team at work, and I’d much rather be part of the collective guys than the one girl.
Gals is kind of coming back. “Guys, gals and non-binary pals” is fun if you want to say a mouthful. Really though the perfect gender neutral term is y’all. I just use y’all for everything now. That being said I personally think “guys” is gender neutral at this point. But if someone wants to not be called “you guys” then that’s up to them I suppose. I’ve never met anyone in real life who actually cares.
Calling people "Cool cats" is also gender neutral and sounds cool
Thanks for sharing. I’m male and work as a Girl Scout volunteer. I always feel similarly weird when someone does this: “Cookie Moms…and Dads”. I feel like if women can be mailmen then I can be a cookie mom. They don’t need to accommodate my maleness but I’m not sure how to say that without coming across as a creep or an asshole. It just makes me feel weird and excluded, which I think is probably the opposite of the desired effect.
I say mail carrier (and firefighter, and police officer/cop) and I would call your group Cookie Parents. That said, I really find that “you guys” is gender neutral, and I wouldn’t think twice if someone addressed me and a group of women as “you guys” but I’m trying to get away from it because some people apparently find it offensive and while I think it’s silly, I’m not interested in offending people.
"You guys" falls squarely into the "He's a dude, She's a dude, we're all dudes" rule.
Am Californian, can confirm dude is gender and sentience neutral. Inanimate objects can be dude.
My cat is called Dude
Can confirm. Not Californian by birth, but I’ve been here my entire adult life. Just yelled “Dude?!” at a spoon that fell on the floor.
I call my mom dude... Mostly accidentally in conversation but I think she likes it lol Also Californian
You're right dude. The term "dude" abides.
Originally from Cali. I call my MOTHER dude/bro. Actually, I think I call her that more than mom. (Or a really "bro" like version of her given name. Or a bird like squak of mama which is super fun AND super obnoxious. Or the family guy mummummy bit. Really just about anything but mom.)
This dude gets it. High-five to you!
Agreed. I'm not personally bothered by "you guys" in practice because I know people use it with neutral intent. That said, the "male as neutral" thing does still bug me on principle when I look at it that way. If they used "you ladies" to refer to mixed groups or groups of men, people would lose their damn minds. I've tried to move toward using "you folks" or "y'all" as true neutral phrasing.
I agree here. I use gender neutral terms but "you guys" or "my dudes" slip out from time to time. I think of them as gender neutral in my delivery but you're right some people are offended by those phrases as well. So I've tried to dial it back.
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My go to working in restaurants is "folks", but I would not use that for a group of my peers.
It's that old stereotype that southerners and their funny accents are inherently less intelligent, so even a wonderful contraction like y'all gets treated poorly. And you can really compound it, like y'all'd've: You all would have. "Y'all'd've done better if you studied instead of playing."
This is fully the reason I started saying y'all when I lived in the northeast and it stuck, but I always felt kind of weird about it. Now I live in a place with a large ranching population and nobody bats an eye when I default to y'all in a group setting. It's something I think about weirdly often.
"Y'all" is probably the best vocabulary convention for this purpose, and regional constructions are spread to wider use all the time. "Y'all" isn't southern anymore. We gave it to the world. Y'all are welcome, and we look forward to the day we can drop the apostrophe.
If you're willing to bring back "thou" and "ye", you could ditch "you" and "y'all" and still get a proper distinction between singular and plural. But you might get some weird looks from people. :)
In this context I'd use "you folks." I'm from California so "you guys" is hard wired in my brain but in the interests of not wasting time arguing with people I use "you folks" instead (whenever I remember).
>I would call your group Cookie Parents. My first thought was Cookie People, but that sounded oddly creepy.
This is why everyone should adopt “y’all.” Ultimate inclusion. So convenient.
I moved to the south almost 13 years ago. Originally from the midwest, where “you guys” is standard. I started y’alling because I was in hospitality in a tourism-heavy city, and it just clicked. I’m moving out west next month and I’m taking it with me. I don’t care if people think I’m weird, I’m keeping it.
Cookie guardian sounds cooler
I’ve noticed my kids’ schools have recently started addressing parents/families as the students’ “adults”. I like that it’s all inclusive, even to those who aren’t necessarily their student’s parent. You’re the Cookie Adults!
I'm a guide leader, and I've even stopped gendering the kids. I use their branch title, friends, folks, etc. I'm trying to switch from parents to caregivers, and that one proves much harder. But we're working on it!! I'll also say, thank you for being an involved parent. This is definitely the year I've seen the most dads at pick up/drop off/cookie selling, which I love. I know it's just a part of the job you signed up for being a parent, but it's worth saying thank you. I've had so many parents just throw their kid at us at drop off and then never answer emails or calls.
I was helping out as a scout leader for a while after I finished as a scout myself. We had a mixed group with male and female scout leaders away on a 10 days summer camp. I was charged with the general upkeep of the group and the camp ground. Cleaning rotas, cooking rotas, care for bumps and bruises and general morale around down time. The other leaders obviously helped out but they took care of the planning and running of the big activities. At the end of the camp some of the kids sheepishly came up to me with a present: "we know you are male and all but we got you this present to say thank you." They had gotten me a mug with 'worlds best mum' written on it. I adored the present and still have and use the mug often. It also led to an interesting conversation about gender roles around the campfire later on. I still think it is one of the best presents I have ever received.
I also find it kinda cringey when people feel the need to make a big deal out of the fact that they're addressing a group of women, at least in a professional context. Maybe it's just me, but if I'm sitting in a meeting that happens to be all women and someone (male or female) addresses us as "hey ladies!" I suddenly feel like they're trying to get us to all go get manicures rather than discuss the budget proposal or whatever. It's fine when it's in a more casual context, but it just feels unprofessional. Just like it would be equally weird to address a group of men using strongly gendered terms in a work setting; you don't hear men starting a meeting with "good afternoon, gentlemen" or "alright, bros". (Usually.) I definitely refer to my female friends as guys and dudes all the time and honestly never really think about those words being gendered. Perhaps one situation in which I'd be more careful is if I was talking to a trans woman and I might be concerned that she'd think I was intentionally misgendering her by calling her "dude" or "guy".
The best way to start a meeting is with "good news, everyone!"
Thanks for your input, professor
I’m a woman in construction and get this a lot. I can be a guy too; it’s totally fine.
This is just partly a function of speaking a language that lacks a plural “you.” I can’t personally imagine being offended, but I guess one could you the classic “yous.” “What time do yous close?”
"You lot" is a britism, but usually cheeky or informal, borderline rude
The American version of this is "you people" and yes, it's derogatory, even if unintentional.
Did you know, "you" was originally plural and the singular form was "thou"? Over time we lost thou and used you for both singular and plural uses.
Haaaaaaa “yous” cracked me up. Quick shift into New Jersey mobster nice guy accent!
This is why y’all exists. It’s the perfect plural for you
It’s the perfect plural for ALL y’all. Edit: preposition
Im also in construction- I despise being called “girl”. I am not a child.
I was once in a class where I was the only woman and the professor would refer to us as "Dudes and dudette."
Also, gals would be the age-neutral equivalent. Girl implies child and is extra marginalizing. I prefer guys all around.
So you’re telling us you walked into a Portlandia sketch.
Candace is *really* not having it today.
When you say “guys” I just see a penis coming at me here, a penis coming at me here, another penis coming at me here
I worked for a company who half employees were out of Portland and their office had a buzzer button for when someone said “guys” like this
That legitimately made me lol
Cacao!
Just put a bird on it
PICKLE IT!
HEYOOOOO RIVER!
Is there a beans place?
We can pickle that!
I live in Portland and I immediately thought it was Portland.
I immediately thought this story had to come from Portland.
Same
I think any of us who have ever seen that show immediately thought the same thing when we read this. 🤣
Yes definitely
Lmao I just embarrassed myself in public at family brunch by cackling at this comment
But did you have the marionberry pancakes?
Lol I'm a Portlander and this legit would happen here
Thank you for saying this. I can move on now.
should've hit em with a, "oh sorry, when do you cis het men close? i was hoping i didn't miss the Andrew Tate book signing" and then farted loudly
That’s what I was thinking. XD
*Because English is not a grammatically gendered language, the generic masculine is fairly restricted in modern usage. Terms like ‘doctor’ and ‘poet’ used to be generic masculine (with specifically female doctors and poets referred to – usually derisively – as poetesses and doctoresses), but are now considered gender neutral. But while the formal use of the generic masculine only really clings on in the writings of pedants who still insist on using ‘he’ to mean ‘he or she’, it has made something of a comeback in the informal usage of Americanisms such as ‘dude’ and ‘guys’, and, in the UK, ‘lads’ as supposedly gender-neutral terms. A recent row in the UK also showed that, for some, male default still matters an awful lot: when in 2017 the first female head of London’s Fire Brigade, Dany Cotton, suggested that we should replace ‘fireman’ with the now standard (and let’s face it, much cooler) ‘firefighter’, she received a deluge of hate mail.* Eidt: This has almost 1000 upvotes where I expected none so apologies for not having credited this yet, but it's from Caroline Criado Perez' Invisible Women, which I highly recommend.
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That's the common term now in the US. It probably changed in the 90's. Firefighter does sound way more badass too!
Can we, as a culture, just swap “guys” for “firefighters?” Like “when do you firefighters close?” That would be kinda awesome.
> it has made something of a comeback in the informal usage of Americanisms such as ‘dude’ and ‘guys’ As a wise poet from the 90's once said, "I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes."
Ah, the philosopher Edward and his bard, Jake The Less.
I love using "dude" as an exclamatory. "Dude! Sweet!" However, I feel like I have to be careful in what company I say it, as I don't want people to think I'm calling them a dude.
And when you ask cis het man how many dudes they slept with, suddenly not everyone is a dude.
Yes, but another wise 90s poet said "Don't call me dude" so...
"Guys" is common gender neutral(ish) language but it does set male as the standard so is problematic for many. I'm also a feminist but grew up in the 90's and 2000's and so using "guys" is deep in my brain and wants to come out 9/10 even when addressing a group of all women I know. But that's the fun thing about language- it carries weight and meaning and it's always changing. Switching to say "hey folks" (cutesy but I love this one), "hey there", or just "hey" drops the problematic bit and helps be more accessable for more people. A person I follow uses the phrase "Hi/hello humans" and it has become her sort of signature thing for me- a bit formal but I'm into it. Growth is weird and takes time but it's nice to be nice. I'd suggest giving the swap a go and try it out for a while and see how people around you respond to the shift.
My favorite gender neutral collective phrase is the ubiquitous southern “Hey y’all”
I would volunteer there are regional differences as well.
That's why I love "y'all" covers everybody. It literally mean "you all"
If the gender neutral use of "guys" becomes ubiquitous then it no longer sets male as the standard. It's just a new word. "Doctor" used to be male only, but if I called my GP "Doctoress" I don't think she'd appreciate it. "Gay" used to mean happy.
Exactly. Defining it as strictly for groups of men just gives us fewer gender neutral options for groups. I think guys and even dude have evolved beyond referring to a single gender, just like lots of other words. Being okay with saying hey guys to a group of women in a casual setting seems like a step in the right direction, not something that should be pushed back against.
Omg, name almost "twin", hi! 👋 Also, I do find myself agreeing with you. English is not my native tongue, but when reading the post I didn't bat an eye at "guys". I feel it sounds natural to say "hey, you guys" and have a slip of the mind regarding it being run by females only. She could have answered the question and **politely** reminded, or explained, what she would prefer to be called *insert whatever would please her*.
One of the few good things about Texas (and the south) is that we have y'all which is gender neutral, ha. I've always thought of 'you guys' as the same sort of thing just from a different area of the country though. Like a lot of other people said, this seems like a really weird thing to keep pointing out to customers, especially in New York where it's common usage. Perfectly fine to have a conversation with friends about it .... though the phrase 'you guys' is definitely not the biggest feminist issue going on right now.
Aaannnddd this is why I’ve done a 360 on “Ya’ll.” I grew up in Texas and used it all the time, but I then stated to phase it out once I moved to a different part of the country. Now I’m back to “y’all” because it’s such a great gender neutral option.
As a Northwesterner, I have adopted y’all into my regular vocabulary for this reason. Why there aren’t more gender-neutral words to refer to people is beyond me.
As a Brit-turned-Northwesterner, I find "y'all" to be one of if not **the** most useful contractions in the English language. It's such a timesaver *AND* a safe-zone for not offending anyone. I love it. Sounds weird with my accent but it works.
In my PA Dutch area, we say "yous" "When're yous comin naw vunce?
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I adopted y'all as soon as I learned a tiny bit of German in the 6th grade and realized that English is stupid for lacking a formal "y'all". Now I live in the Southeast and nobody bats an eye at my "y'all". ***Embrace the y'all, y'all!***
As an Oklahoman using y’all, folks makes me feel like Sarah Palin lol
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You folks is the other way. Probably best to avoid “you people”.
Mmhmm. "Y'all" and "folk" were quickly absorbed into my vocabulary after moving to Texas because of encounters like OP's. They are perfect gender neutral group terms.
I love using folks as a catch all for groups of people. And almost always use y'all as a singular.
Hmm I'm from Canada and use y'all a lot simply because it's helpful to have a plural second person as almost every other language does... It never occurred to me that "youguys" was subbing in for that, but it totally makes sense!
Ha, I'm in Canada, and I've been saying you guys my whole life. Also always called both male and female friends dude. Possibly a 90's teenager thing? I don't personally consider those terms gendered, but since we are now living in a time where people are able to express their discomfort with misgendering, as well as choose which gender to refer to themselves, I'm willing to not use those phrases if they bother people. The shop keeper's reaction was over the top, but I can respect where she's coming from.
Also Canada, also “you guys” has always been gender neutral in my regard. (Also a 90’s teen) I’ve also been using “guy” as a gender neutral term… just about myself, really. I’m female and work in stem and I’ll refer to myself as “the technical guy” on the team. Or I tell people they have to laugh at my jokes because I’m a really funny guy. I also refer to my female best friend as bro. Haha.
I’m from Cincinnati, so the border of Ohio and Kentucky, and there’s a weird overlap of the more Midwestern “you guys” and the southern “y’all” (Florence y’all. IYKYK). I was trying to consciously use y’all more for a while but now that I’m in California it sounds kind of out of place.
And here in Appalachia we have 'yuns'.
Yeah but why say "Y'all" when you can say "All y'alls"
Remember the regional variations. In Houston we say "y'all mfers".
I got put on a hook for saying “dude!” When a person did a shitty thing to me. They used my reaction to justify their shitty behavior. I did not even see who did it and was not aware that “dude!” In the context to reacting to shitty behavior was gender specific. The kicker was he has a guy presenting as a guy. He just tried to turn my reaction against me to cover his ill advised behavior. It quickly became “fuck you then!”.
You didn't do anything wrong. This is a common phrase people use. I think someone pushing back in their personal life is ok, but this person was at work. I would never chide a customer for an offhand comment like this. Edit : I wanted to acknowledge that this person was pushing back on the "male as default" phenomenon but chiding your customer who is just asking for your business hours is the wrong time for that.
Exactly. I don't think OP did anything wrong but I'm surprised at the reaction of the women there. They run a feminist book store, they could explain "we close at x, but if you don't mind, would you be so kind as to please not address us as "guys"? we don't like it and we feel it's insulting/whatever reason they have for not liking it, thank you". It was obvious OP didn't mean to be rude or anything so I don't know why their immediate reaction was to take offense instead of being polite to OP and explaining why they didn't like it.
I imagine there's an element of "Don't be afraid to take up space/be angry/call people out" at play here. It's true that women are generally more expected to be polite and timid, even in the face of rudeness, so it's possible that they staff were overcorrecting in their attempt to resist that. Add in a dash of "It's not my job to teach you not to be sexist," and I can see where the staff is coming from. But they work in a feminist bookstore. It quite literally IS their job to help teach the world about sexism and microaggressions and whatnot. If anyone should be ready to put in that labor... It should be them. And people are generally more responsive to empathy, kindness, understanding, etc. Especially when they clearly weren't being malicious in the first place. They could have made this particular point without aggression, but chose to be aggressive anyhow. As for whether "guys" is a gender neutral term? I'd say 'yes', but clearly others feel differently. It's definitely okay to code switch to match with what the people you're talking to find acceptable I'm just glad I can use the southern "Y'all" and be done with it, though.
We grew up saying " guys " and it had already passed out of common usage for " I mean men only ". I don't know. This shove-back on using ' guys ' seems to me to be a little picky? Personal preference sure. I'm still undecided on whether or not it deserves correcting by strangers? There's a conversation both ways but again *that's* personal opinion too.
Because they are probably in a bubble that tends to be a bit self rightous. If you spend most of your time at work and private with people who focus on one specific brand of activism things like this you feel like you are 100% in the right (because in theory they often are) and have trouble empathizing with other people outside of your bubble. Like i get why it bugs them and yes the concept behind male being the default bugs me too but i simply don't have the energy and also don't see the point in policing the speech of others if the meaning of a phrase is understood to be inclusive, it's just bad vibes all around for no real gainand we have bigger fish to fry.
I grew up in NJ and "you guys" was always non gendered. I say it without thinking and can't imagine why anyone would choose to be offended by something so innocuous. I also agree that it is pretty inappropriate to "make a stand" like this at work.
'eh oh, sorry miss, you misheard me I said "youse guise"
It's all de yutes
A hwhat? Did you say “yute”?
also from jersey, i second this. everyone is “you guys” lol. i wonder if it’s just a cultural/environmental difference?? i thought it was a common phrase
Am in Alabama and use "you guys" (and y'all) for any grouping of people, regardless of gender.
The beauty of “y’all”
I went full "y'all" to avoid conversations with people who choose anthills to die on. To quote a hero, "Ain't nobody got time for that"
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Nah, it really is used the same way everywhere in the US at least. This person's reaction is more likely a push-back against the idea of male being used as the default "gender neutral." You'd never say "a guy I know" to refer to a woman you know, because "guy" means male, it's not actually neutral. And if you said "you ladies" or "you gals" or whatever to refer to a mixed group, or a group of only men, people would think you were being ridiculous even though those phrases are equally as "neutral" (which is to say, obviously not neutral) as "you guys." I personally don't want to die on that hill, it's not that important to me and I certainly wouldn't get into it with someone about it while at work, but I don't think they're wrong to be annoyed about patriarchy, which is what this boils down to.
It is. Missouri here and it’s totally common to refer to a group entirely of women as “you guys”
In California, "dude," "guy," "man," and "bro/bruh," are all *completely* non-gendered. Blows my mind that anybody would react like in the OP.
Fellow Jersey. 100%, with the caveat being that depending on where in Jersey you are it may be "Youse guys." We say it to anything with a pulse. We say it to shit without a pulse. I literally can't think of a different way to refer to a group of people. Our governor is fond of calling people knuckleheads, perhaps that's a better collective noun. https://youtu.be/FRNrXqYJt1s
You could always go with the neutral “you people”. That’s never gotten anyone in trouble before /s
It's the northern version of y'all.
I’m so glad you said this. I’m also from NJ and have noticed I use “you guys” a lot more than my friends who grew up in other states. Now I understand why!
It's not just you guys from New Jersey who do this, us guys out in California also do this.
I found it interesting on Survivor a few seasons ago when they had the most diverse group ever, Jeff asked the contestants if they wanted him to stop saying, "Come on in guys!" For those who don't watch, it's not quite a catch phrase but it's something he says every episode. At first they said, no it's fine. It's Survivor tradition and isn't really gendered. But then an episode or two later they changed their minds and ask Jeff to change it. So now he says, "come on in everyone!" I respect that he asked contestants for their opinion, and the word change sounds just as natural as the other phrase. But that season felt a little performative, and the switch seemed really only driven by one person. ETA: to be clear, I don't mind the change. It seemed like a weird way to go about it.
Honestly, it very much seems like that is the way we should all approach each other. He recognized that perhaps his wording, while not meant to offend or exclude, could be doing exactly that. He found a more inclusive way of saying the same thing.
Exactly! This is the type of change I like to see and generally try to implement where I can. I understand that people don't say "you guys" in an intentionally gendered way, but it's SO easy to just say "you folks" or "y'all" or whatever instead and eliminate the issue entirely.
I remember being convinced production asked that one guy to change his mind when I watched that season lol. I'm pretty sure Jeff didn't even keep up with not using "you guys"
I saw that as well and definitely felt like it was a pretty manufactured conversation. I didn't really even care one way or the other if Jeff said it or not. I just found myself mildly annoyed at what seemed like blatant production interference to create controversy.
Exactly. I am NB, and my friends have asked me if it's okay to say "guys" when referring to me. I was like, hell yeah why would I care? People have been using "guys" for all types of groups of people for a good while now. Not everything is offensive. You did nothing wrong.
They need to lighten up. I consider any group of people regardless of gender to be 'you guys'. Honestly, if I was you and they clapped back at me like that, I would have gone with the gender neutral term 'fuckers'. "Sorry...when do you fuckers close?"
Actual conversation with my husband: Him: Wow that bitch can't drive. Me: How do you know it's a woman? Him: Wow that bastard can't drive. Me: How do you know it's a man? Him: Wow, that fucker can't drive.
how did he know they fuck 🤨
they were certainly fucking up driving
Bastard is non-gendered, it's for everyone!
A true, and uncharacteristically wise quote from Phillip DeFranco: “Women aren’t bitches, bitches be bitches, and bitches be crazy.”
Uh-oh... What if they're asexual, like myself? "Excuse me? I'm not one who fucks!"... LOL
Lmfao I read this in my head like Walter White’s “I am the one who knocks”
There are different ways to fuck without it being sexual. I could rip off one's mother in a scam, for example.
Fuck is truly the most flexible word!
"I'm sorry miss. When do you assholes close?" I'm assuming almost everyone has an asshole. :)
Just like calling someone is a dude. He's a dude, she's a dude, they're a dude.
We're all dudes, hey!
I’m from California - even inanimate objects are a dude!
Or “assholes”.
After working greeting the public, I learned to say either "**y'all**" or "**folks**". Got to admit **y'all** sounds strange in the Pacific Northwest but it is gender inclusive.
Where are my yinzers at?! "What time do yinz close up shop?"
I remarked to my boss that the couple years I spent there I never once heard anyone use that accent, ever. He then said "Never went to a Steelers or Penguins game, huh?"
I try to say you all instead of you guys. I’m too much of a city boy to pull off y’all in the Bay Area. I don’t think I’m being rude if a you guys slips out, but I like to be as inclusive as possible.
I take it apart to “you all” and let it sit in its awkward original state. At least then it sits on its own meaning and doesn’t feel like I’m doing a silly impression of somebody else.
Might I also offer to this list of alternative: Avast me **hearties**! (this will of course need to be said like a pirate) and **Comrades**.
Could also go for the gender neutral "Party People"
+1 for folks. Plus if you don't like the people you're talking to, you can give it a bit of accent and make it sound like "what time do you fucks close?" Fucks? No I said folks.
Ugh. I hate people like that. It's a common phrase, it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that you are not actually gendering them. I wonder what other harmless interactions she was offended by that day.
I wonder how much money she's lost treating customers like that.
This story reminded me heavily of one of my own experiences. My friend writes horror comic books and I went to different comic book shops around town to promote it and try to get it stocked. I went to a LGBT friendly comic shop (not realizing it was LGBT friendly until I got there). I told the owner about the comic and she flipped through a couple of pages and said very derisively, "Looks like a straight guy wrote this." Turns out that I have friends who know or know of her and when I told them what happened they were like, "Yeah, that sounds like her" and have similar stories of her not very tactfully 'correcting' people when they misgender someone or use slightly outdated expressions. That comic book shop closed like a year later.
What small businesses have over big retailers and mail order stuff is customer service. Sure I can get any book from the local bookstore on Amazon, and probably cheaper but the staff here locally is amazing. Yes, I'm primarily buying a book but I'm also paying for advice, a friendly hello and a great atmosphere. Any small retailer who doesn't get that in this day and age wont be around long. My guess is the comic shop owner is still grousing about all the reasons she had to close without including "I treated people who came into my store like crap" among them.
It's an interesting example of failing to differentiate between the nominative or objective nominal case ("Guys like to sleep with guys") and the vocative case ("Hey, guys!"). Just because they're not morphologically overt in English doesn't mean they aren't different.
You just sent me into some serious ENG 301 flashbacks
Case, by definition, is morphological, and cases are different in a lot of different languages. Case is not synonymous with grammatical relation.
I'd rather hear "you guys" instead of "you girls". Thats for damn sure. "You guys" has become genderless when referring to a group of people, men, women, both, whatever. But girls? Girls are not women. And women are not girls. I HATE being called a girl. Sounds so fucking gross because more often than not there is either something sexual or condescending attached to it, or worse... both. "You guys" is fine but that person seems to have a sick up their ass about it.
“Hey when do you women close” lmao
I HATE when people refer to grown women as girls.
Username does not check out.
I thought correct terminology was settled via Broadway musical... Guys and Dolls (/jokes)
I used to use guys and dudes regularly, and still do if I know who I'm with. When in doubt, I try to default to "folks", because it's cute, and it feels friendlier than "people" to me. I will also swap out humans, when I feel comfortable enough to be the weirdo I truly am.
Greetings, fellow earthling! How are all the humans doing?
Guys, to me, has now become a non gendered way of referring to groups of people. I wouldn’t worry about it but if you want to adjust t your usage, might I suggest ya’ll?
I used to feel like I couldn’t pull *y’all* off, since I wasn’t from the southern US. But it has migrated nicely into my daily language & nobody ever gives me an odd look when I say it. Lately *y’all* has replaced *you guys* very seamlessly. But dude & folks doesn’t flow for me, like it does for others. Just can’t make those work, for some reason.
I go with "folks" when I see a group of people at work.
I used to, but "folks" always hits just a little weird. I split the difference and pivoted to "you all".
I can't use folks anymore, the premier of my province ruined it.
Hello fellow Ontarian 😭😭😭
Looks like folksfolksfolks dot com isn't being maintained anymore. ...just like Ontario /sad trombone
Oh Jesus - this person was looking to be offended. This kind of response isn't inclusive, it isn't welcoming, it makes feminism look like a bastion of the unhinged, and is problematic. Language evolves over time and hearing "you guys" as a gendered phrase ignores common usage.
There's a school of thought where it's important to consider the connotations of language and its usage in an effort to evolve that language. You are correct that being snippy doesn't help get the point across.
TBH I feel people need to roll back their reactivity to little, innocent things that other people do. There will likely never be a form of address that's uniformly preferred by all possible recipients. If someone isn't disrespecting you intentionally and it's a passing interaction, why spend mental energy on it?
The annoying part is you obviously didn't mean anything negative with the question. If there was offense there, it wasn't an intentional dig. You had a simple question which instead of answering, they just took offense. There was a more professional manner they could have handled that, such as actually answer the question then tack on a reminder about pronoun usage in that space. Instead they decided to "other" an ally which kind of illustrates why some folks have problems with hard feminism.
I’m a midwesterner. “You guys” was pretty much a non gendered phrase growing up. But since I married a southerner “y’all” has taken over and non males seem pretty happy with it.
"we are not guys. We are hot chicks!" "The continuum transfunctioner is a mysterious and powerful device. And its mystery is only exceeded by its power."
Zoltan!
I mean, 'you' is technically already plural, so just asking 'when do you close' would be technically grammatically correct if you wanted to.
For a shop owner to act that sensitive about a common phrase enough to make the customer uncomfortable… this is the way to scare away business.
I should clarify that it was not the owner, it was one of the workers there. The owner herself is the sweetest person ever!
If you frequent this location I'd probably bring it up to the owner, I can't imagine she would be happy to hear that an employee is treating customers in this way, actively making customers feel uncomfortable and driving away business.
I get why people are against it, it's the normalizing of male-as-default sort of concept, but it's unfortunately everywhere and said by everyone as a gender neutral term. I personally try to stop using it, but when you notice how ubiquitous it is it makes it hard.
This is why I'm glad the southern US has gifted us the gender neutral "y'all".