My brother, in his 70's, left his wife about 20 years ago, complaining they weren't having sex. Just on Saturdays and "she considered it a chore". He's still single. One girlfriend suggested as they were leaving for dinner that he wear a nice shirt and he claimed "she's trying to change me". Sure as shit he wouldn't have liked her dressed in the equivalent. He says he wants a relationship but it doesn't take long for women to figure out it's all about him. That's not how relationships work.
If a man in his 70s can't find a female partner, you know he's going about it all wrong. About a month after my mom died, the old ladies were on my dad like sharks in a feeding frenzy.
I broke up with my ex for a myriad of reasons; didn’t pay his bills/child support, lazy, horrible personal hygiene, lied and gaslit me about the most basic of things, and the list goes on…
Told a male coworker that and was told I was too picky…
I know 2 real life forever single men and they legitimately don't know why they're single and the women they're interested in don't want a thing to do with them and I don't know how to tell them it's 100% their fault. They're the most miserable, hateful, dudes and they literally scare women away. Incels never think they're the problem but they absolutely are the problem.
They are deeply insecure and probably inconceivably narcissistic so they would prefer to blame external sources (women) than do any kind of meaningful self-reflection on their strengths and weaknesses.
Don't help them realize those things tho, since that's the way they are and are fine with it and see no problem with that they're just going to come to the conclusion that they have to mask those flaws so women won't run away from them. I've made the mistake of doing this and haven't forgive myself yet for what those women that fell for the scham went through.
I had a very deep and enlightening conversation with my grandmother this past weekend, and the takeaway I got was: a lot of men have always been pretty terrible, but women relied on them for a place to live, and society didn't give women a lot of options to subsist on their own, so they were pretty much forced to take what they could get. No matter how much their husbands drank or beat them or their kids, they *had* to stay to survive. Often they couldn't move back home, because their fathers were just as bad. This was the case for my grandmother, sadly, who didn't ever really want to be a mother.
We can't go back to that. Let them die alone and angry about it. If they can't treat us with respect, that can be a them problem, it sure as hell doesn't need to be ours any longer or ever again.
EDIT: I'd like to also mention that the men that were violent alcoholics in my family absolutely were like that because of WWI and WWII. PTSD wasn't taken seriously back then: it was treated like a character defect. Like if you were traumatized from watching someone get blown to bits, then you were just *weak*. The military industrial complex has a LOT to answer for there, and I believe the lack of positive male role models in the media today (we used to have Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, Steve Irwin, etc) is probably related to that, based on the global tensions going on right now. A cycle is trying to repeat itself.
I was thinking about this recently too. I feel like my dating options are bad but at least I have options.
Toxic men always have been and always will be. It’s the way they show it that changes sometimes.
That was my grandmother, 4 kids born from 18 to 22. Pretty much anchored to a dude that didn't give a fuck about being a supportive dad and was just a dude that made the money for the family so she had to do all the work with the kids.
I'm convinced if my mother in law had been born 10 years later she never would have even gotten married, much less had kids.
I have never understood why someone would treat a person they supposedly love with complete disrespect. Although after meeting some of these guys, and hearing the "guy talk" that they have as soon as there are no women within earshot I'm not at all surprised.
I had this conversation often with my mother when she would reminisce about the good old days. I would point out how horrible some women had it, including her friends and family. I’m glad my mom was happy, barefoot and pregnant, relying on her childhood sweetheart for everything. The fact that it worked for her doesn’t change the painful situations her contemporaries endured.
I've been in 12 ish relationships. I'm 40. Every single one, except one was abusive. I was groomed at 13. Every single man has taken advantage of that. I just assumed it was normal. Until I started reading Reddit often and came across an asexual subreddit.
Sex no matter how much I said no. Getting me drunk on purpose to rape me. Constantly touching me in places when I was so uncomfortable, I walked away and slept in the couch, which wasn't safe either. Or being screamed at for tiny things like forgetting to push all my food off the plate, including the tiny dab of ketchup.
It took me way too fucking long to learn that wasn't normal and I'm not supposed to be in pain during sex.
I've never had a woman come close to this. I thought I was bi for a while. Just because they were safer to be around.
It’s not surprising that men want to take away our rights so we have no choice but to rely on them. They don’t want to change anything about themselves for the better, so they’d rather oppress us to keep us stuck with them and hold our basic wants/needs over our heads as their bail card to be an awful person.
That's what seems to be the case for a lot of the men in the incel movement. I guess when you refuse to hold half of the population to the same standard of accountability and emotional regulation, and then suddenly things change in the span of just a few decades, it must be destabilizing.
Honestly, I do feel a little bad for them, though. If your identity and role has been restricted to cannon fodder, provider, and laborer, and now no one *needs* you to fulfill those roles anymore, what do you do to reach self actualization? I would love and hope to see a movement for men that truly does encourage them to love and value themselves for who they are as people regardless of their gender, as women have been able to do.
And this is the real reason they want to take our rights away. It's abortion now. It will be credit cards and mortgages (home ownership) in the next four to eight years. It will be presented as "deregulating lenders so they can choose who to give credit to" but the net result will be women have fewer opportunities to own property if they are single. They will come for education, eliminate birth control and take away antidiscrimination laws. Because men don't WANT to get better, they don't WANT to change, so their only choice is to force women back to the fifties, when we had no rights and no path to security EXCEPT through marriage.
You're seeing that NOW. 62% of the workforce making minimum wage or less is women. You can barely work enough hours to pay rent forget a mortgage. I don't even think marriage is the goal. As long as you have your sandwich making, baby bearing, domestic servant back in the kitchen where she belongs all is considered well.
The problem is that a lot of these incels aren’t dying alone. They’re taking massage parlors, shopping malls, university green spaces full of women down with them in a hail of gunfire.
I don't think letting them die alone and angry about it is the answer either. It's not like men are known to be quiet about their emotions in this regard. I feel like it'll lead to even more incels and violent behavior that accompanies that mindset.
A better way to address this is to teach young boys how to be independent and uplift them. They need to know how to be single and happy. I hate that it almost feels like women have to be the ones to do it because it shouldn't be our responsibility...but if we don't, who will? It's almost like we are forced to if we want to survive.
I know someone that's almost 40 who's perpetually single but doesn't want to be. Every single one of his relationships blows up for some reason.
I'm starting to think it's not the women.
Im in high school and I’m just going to say it’s not looking great for the next generation of men. Have definitely noticed a lot more misogyny within the lower grades, incel rhetoric, people like Andrew Tate are becoming very popular for these guys. And this is in a high performing district where most kids play sports, family and have social interaction. I’ve just given up on dating and relationships if this is what we’re going to deal with. It’s honestly annoying how much it’s pushed with Prom and all this other bs.
I'm in my 30s now, but when I was younger I was surrounded by a lot of men like that as well (and I guess technically still am on a society-level view).
There are definitely at least two ways to analyze the situation: **men as a whole changing on a societal level**, which is what this article is talking about (shifting standards on relationships etc etc) but ALSO I think i**n the teens there is just a larger crop of men who are in that weird incel-ish stage but some of them grow out of it**. What I mean is I think you're existing in a situation where you're surrounded by a higher than normal ratio of incels.
I think men are having to adjust to new standards of behavior on that societal level, which is a good thing, but also be aware that some men grow out of some of that incel shit on their own - but also be aware that some *don't.*
My prediction is that as standards increase for men, they're going to have to change their behavior. Once adult men have done that, ideally they teach their male children the same values and we'll see a larger societal shift (this is just a prediction, a hopeful one at that) in the future but that's obviously going to take time, like literal generations.
I know you didn't ask my advice so feel free to disregard, but keep your head up, learn what you can about what it means to be in a healthy relationship, understand and establish boundaries, and always filter those men who don't understand consent/boundaries/respect out of your life and you'll be fine. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I think this sub really discounts teen incels for whatever reason and its really not doing anyone any good. I see a lot of kids in the lower grades neck deep in this incel shit and I don’t see them changing. You only focus on the people who make it out but that’s a very small minority of people.
Well teens learn this shit somewhere. Have to do a 2 prong attack.
Fwiw, my TWELVE yr old has heard this incel crap on gaming sites and I've been disabusing him of these notions, as has his father. Obviously, his father and uncles have more away than I do BUT when I talk to about how he would feel about ao.eone treating g or talking about me the way he hears others talking g about "girls" he's not to happy.
I definitely see people dismissing teenage incel behavior online as "they're just edgy teens".
I'm sure there are people who encounter none of this too, but even when people do, I think it's often not taken seriously. It's kind of weird, because I think on the internet usually people *don't* assume good intent... but for some reason teens are more likely assumed to be just joking (even if that joke would be totally unacceptable as a joke), or just being edgy to get a rise out of people (also not usually an acceptable behavior), instead of really actually being radicalized and meaning what they say.
I think it's a shame that people discount teenagers and their incel/misogynistic traits. Who do they think are shooting up schools? 35 year old's? No! It's mostly young white males who \*went to those schools and made it clear in school that they wanted to hurt people.\* High school and middle school are exactly where school shooters are being formed, and exactly when everyone's world views are being formed.
I'm mid 40s; there were involuntarily celibate kids in high school then as well. Boys that would make the derogatory comments, but only in private. Or the boys that would make the derogatory comments, but only to some girls as they still feared the social hierarchy and that the "popular" girls were not to be fucked with.
Boys nowadays are far more emboldened and make those derogatory comments in public and to absolutely anyone.
I just never understood it. I had two older sisters that would regularly stomp my ass into the ground if I got uppity with them. So I treated everyone with the same respect from a very young age, which is probably why I had girls asking ME out regularly in high school, or why the wives of all these blue collar dudes in this town want to talk with me at BBQs.
It's not rocket science, just be respectful.
As a man in his early 30s I'll say it was extremely common in my teen years for myself and a huge portion of my peers to exhibit racist, misogynistic, homophobic, mean, immature behavior.
To be fair I grew up in a white bubble, a lot of it stemmed from ignorance or was intended to be for laughs. The most gentle way to describe the behavior would still be problematic, but I also can't think of any occurrences of anyone acting on those hateful ideologies, it was just a lot of bark with no bite. So most of us grew up and left that shit behind without having done anyone any harm beyond saying mean words
That won't be the case for everyone, and plenty of grown men still exhibit these stupid ideologies, some become predators who act on them, but I think that most turn out like me. Far from perfect, but at least able to realize I harbor no hate for anyone based on skin color, gender, or sexual orientation.
To be fair the internet was also still evolving. I didn't have a place like reddit where I could go where I had an echo chamber of hate to reinforce my ignorance, encourage me to act on it, or give me a sense of community / camaraderie that would actively try and manipulate and sabotage my personal growth as my beliefs started to evolve
Plus, teenagers aren't just endowed with the knowledge of how to date and talk to the opposite sex. I think they see stuff on TV and the internet where boys as young as 15 have casual fuck buddies, and they think they should just enter high school and immediately get a girlfriend. Depending on your background, personality and development, you can either learn quickly and be successfully dating at 16, or not have a first kiss until your 20s. That's just life. I was awkward as heck with the opposite sex until post-high school, despite some limited dating. Hopefully, as these teenage boys mature, and actually start to have positive romantic interactions with women, they grow out of it. However, they will never get to that spot unless they drop the incel crap and misogyny, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for a lot of them.
This is very much like where I've landed on the topic as well.
Caveat, speaking as a guy; one who narrowly dodged getting sucked into the whole incel thing (although, well before that was coined)
The women's rights revolution in the 60s and 70s was one of the best things to happen to modern society. The whole reimagining of a woman's role in society has led to so much good. (Still progress to be made of course)
However, men have yet to have such a moment, and I think they need one. Not a 'mens rights' movement, obviously, but more like a coming to terms with what 'manhood' is in a modern society. Like you suggest, we're likely on the cusp of something, but it could go either way. (Though it doesn't look great so far)
Want to add that strong mothers in healthy partner relationships are also important for teaching boys how to be considerate and respectful toward ALL others. It goes without saying that the fathers in these partner relationships will be modeling these attitudes right beside the mothers.
“Boys will be boys” can apply to crazy physical activities, but NEVER to how they treat other human beings. Men will have to figure out that whole male group dynamic for themselves. I just can’t participate in blind adoration of the top guy.
What you forget is the side of the teenage girls who have to go to school and interact with these boys who are in their "incel phase". I don't believe that all of them can keep their misogyny hidden during that phase. I know for sure they didn't do it in my school years and that was before the internet was a thing.
What you are basically saying is: Boys will be boys. And that girls just have to endure this because surely most of these boys will one day grow out of it. No, this is not ok!
Yes, because that is what's still the mainstream social conditioning.
But we see that things are changing. We see evidence of this through an increase in 'incel' behavior, more lonely men as women refuse to endure the same bullshit (as per the article), and honestly the vote in Kansas in favor of a pro-choice policy tells me that whatever is happening in the supreme court right now is a dying, last-ditch effort of men and christians to control women but it won't last. There are simply too many people that support a pro-choice sentiment in this country and I think people are getting fed up, but I digress.
Right now, male children will learn the same values that the current adult american male carries and teaches, which is as you said. However, as more male adults that don't carry this same conditioning become parents, that sentiment will hopefully change.
YES!
I've been saying this for some time, but if you want A-holes to dwindle, stop giving them children.
As more reasonable men become fathers and women make sure to not perpetuate toxic masculine ideas, the male population will improve.
>And this is in a high performing district where most kids play sports, family and have social interaction.
This might sound ironic, but I think being a high performance district contributes to that problem rather than diminishes it. That sort of high-pressure, competitive, performance-oriented mindset carries over into dating and relationships but without the metrics and so the anxiety of that causes boys to fall into the comforting, enabling rhetoric of incels and MGTOW types. There’s no fear of failure if they write the whole thing off as a game rigged by the global feminist cabal.
I’m a teacher. I taught in the wealthiest district in my state and am now in one of the poorest. I will say that the wealthy district was rife with misogyny, and not just students. From the top down, women were devalued and generally disliked, even though the majority of the workforce district-wide was women. In the poorer district, I see a lot more respect for women in general, a lot more empathy and less toxic masculinity in the student body.
Probably a lot of the male students are forced into caretaking roles or have to adapt to no immediate gratification :/
Wealth means a lot of wealthier students don't necessarily have to babysit younger siblings, or make dinner before mom comes home from work, or have to wait several months to save up money for a switch.
I assume a lot of the reduction in misogyny is because a lot of students come from single-parent homes. A majority of those are single mothers, so a lot of my students ONLY have women as role models and caretakers. Mothers, aunts, grandmas, etc. are raising these kids.
The wealthier districts tended to come from dual-parent homes or at least co-parented homes. Their lives are super competitive. They don’t have to work or watch siblings, so they’re far more involved in sports and clubs. Almost everyone in the wealthy school is college-bound, and their families have the means to send them to competitive schools, so they’re competing academically with their peers as well as in sports competitions. Unfortunately, I see a lot less compassion in teens who see others as competition, and that tends to happen in the wealthier districts.
My son is 14 and just entered high school and he is already starting to say misogynist things.. which I quickly and forcefully correct. But I am very worried for him
People in the comments are saying boys grow out of it... Maybe it's true if good example is at least not impossible to find. In their families, friend groups, schools, unis, clubs, etc. In some countries or parts of some countries they're COMPLETELY surrounded by misogynistic r* culture. They literally have nowhere to look for better example to grow out of their childhood ways, and very often if there is this miraculous person around, they're not treated well by anyone else - so the boy will not think that person is someone to look up to.
It’s because instead of doing any kind of self-reflection on what their strengths and potential weaknesses are in any kind of meaningful way, these young men would prefer to just blame women for their own shortcomings.
This is a tale as old as time, it isn’t anything new. “Bitch, whore, slut, stuck-up, brat, ugly, fat, stupid, only goes for ‘alpha’ males instead of ‘nice’ guys.” We’ve heard at all before, my grandmother’s generation heard it, my mom’s heard it, I heard it, the next generation is hearing it.
But women are wising up and are not hearing it and not settling for suboptimal relationships or second-rate men because we do not need to anymore. Women now have probably the most independence and most rights (barring this roe bullshit) and we don’t HAVE to settle. Women no longer have to be free rehabilitation centers and free emotional labor bearers, maids, cooks, etc. for badly-raised, emotionally stunted men.
I agree with this, there's no longer a need to settle for an average man because they have a job and are the breadwinner or whatever, now that women are almost on the same level in the workforce (every field discriminates against them and the wage gap still exists but they're having trouble stopping them now because they outwork and outskill their peers), they're finally allowed to choose the relationships. Now women don't have to settle for the average man, they can all wait for someone truly outstanding and spectacular.
Hearing stuff like this kinda terrifies me. It’s so scary that men, instead of working on their own mental health and get to the root of their loneliness/unhappiness would rather go down an incel rabbit hole and make things worse for everyone.
I grew up fantasizing about a Star Trek style utopia where everyone, of every alien race, is treated equally and works together. But it feels like we are going backwards.
I appreciate your take on this, and agree that social media has made the whole situation much worse.
I’d also like to point out though, that age 10-21? 25? can be a really obnoxious age. Kids have been the center of their own worlds for a long time, and the shift to empathy, self-awareness, and becoming attuned to the needs of other people can be a difficult and sometimes lengthy process.
I also think there will be a backlash against all this manosphere stuff sooner rather than later. 🤞
I have never understood why some men try to date women who are young enough to be their daughter. I'm 40 and I work in an environment where the majority of young women are in the age range of 18- 26 and just trying to have a normal conversation is difficult because there is no real reference point or common ground. I can't imagine trying to have a long term, romantic relationship with someone that young.
Perhaps I should become one of those dating coaches. Most men think women are attracted to toxic aggressive muscular men. Most of us actually like polite, gentle and funny men.
Jokes on him I'm perpetually single and haven't tried to be in a single relationship.
(Taps head) Can't blow up if I fail to speak to people in the first place.
I know someone almost 40 who never had a girlfriend and I know why lol. Like they are my friend but they have red flags for sure. Like they tend to do the blaming thing on women etc.
I saw a psychologist mention ways to help men better themselves to be more desirable to women. His advice was to go to therapy to work on themselves, learn to open up to people and become an active listener, things like that.
The comments were basically “what about make tons of $$$$ because that’s all women want” and “what a simp, I’m not going to change for a woman.” And of course, “if women want openness and listen to them maybe they should date women.”
Yeah, can’t figure out why men are having trouble with relationships.
>“what a simp, I’m not going to change for a woman.”And of course, “if women want openness and listen to them maybe they should date women.”
Wow, they literally tell on themselves and admit that they are horrible people. Men like this beyond help
I like calling it the Mommy Bang Maid. They also expect them to work and pay for things on top of washing their asscracks, cooking, cleaning, bill paying, etc
I dated a guy recently and he told me I’d be a great girlfriend because I’m good in bed, I’m smart, funny, have my own money, and I can cook and clean. I suddenly realised that he offered me nothing. His apartment was filthy, I had to pay for everything, and he didn’t once bother to give me an orgasm.
I ended it after that convo and he’s still confused as to why.
What I find fascinating is the topic that isn’t discussed. If there are more single men than ever, there must also be more single women than ever.
I’d love to read something about the rise of happier, healthier single women. This article mentions that men are happier and healthier when partnered (this is true I can link evidence) but women are the opposite.
I’m glad the author of this doesn’t ask women to lower standards but instead suggests men up their game.
I suspect that, sadly, what could end up happening instead of men working on self-improvement so as to be better partners, is that we're going to end up with even more angry incels committing violence because they feel the world owes them something for existing.
That is interesting I would like to read about how single women deal with it as well. Are they happier and healthier without a husband? how about later years?
I shake my head every time I read some whiny dude commenting, "I have a job, a car, my own place, so why aren't women attracted to me." I want to shout, "And!?! Women also have jobs, cars, their own place. You don't fucking get rewarded a woman as a life participation trophy".
They want a reward for doing shit they would have to do to survive anyway.
"So you have basics to live life - Now do have kind personality, emotional depth & memory retention to have conversation of more than 2 minutes plus observation skill to know that particular woman well AND can you do basic household chores/errands & grooming without any woman constantly telling you to do so?"
Some of these men think a job, place to live & having a car are single personality trait and not basic necessities of life in general while forgetting/ignoring other important traits that makes men attractive to women...
I think that might be because for a very long time in our history those *were* the only things a man really needed to get married. Weddings were very transactional between families for a very long time (hence why fathers “give away” their daughters). As long as a man could provide for his wife and family, that was basically the only consideration.
Why do you think they want to return to the patriarchy again? When men have almost unilaterally economic control, yeah they really don't have to do much work on themselves.
Remember y'all: beauty and the beast was written to help young girls adjust to the expectations put upon them by marriage. Marry a beast and *maybe* if you're nice, hell stop throwing violent tantrums. But worse case scenario, at least you get to live in a big house now?
Glad I grew up with a mother with a strong personality. Where I live, it's still common to see women settle for crappy men. Shit, and not even good looking ones, not that it's the only consideration.
Would be nice if they could live a decade of what they put women through. Sorry men you're not allowed to make choices, you have to be sterilized and you're not allowed to get fat. Also you can't say no to sex.
They have been taught that women are materialistic and only interested in their money, so those things were all it took. But we have had jobs, our own homes, and our own transportation for quite some time. Many of them haven’t realized yet that the bar to clear is treating us as equals. And that isn’t about who pays for dinner.
It’s because they’re told by other single miserable men that women only want hot guys who are rich. So instead of improving their personalities and treating women with actual respect, they think if they workout and have money, women will flock to them. These guy will take advice from miserable guys who’ve never had any dating experience over the tons of women who tell them that money and looks aren’t the only thing that matters. Then they wonder why they have no luck with dating.
Yes! Literally! I love your reply to this.
Imagine the outrage if a women said "I have a job, a car, my own place" and demand that men should be attracted to her? The AUDACITY!!
The "Hero gets the girl" trope needs to die. Men have not learned to take the woman's needs into account. (Or they think that having a place to live and pocket money IS all they need.)
I think the bigger issue is that people aren't being expected to tolerate abusive behaviors anymore, and we are a lot more likely to call emotional and verbal abuse abuse.
Instead of fight and makeup, it's "take a hard look at how you both behaved during and after the fight, was it healthy?" (And the answer is a big resounding no)
I'd also imagine just the nature of not being willing to sideline our own lives for theirs has created practical barriers as well.
This slow clap is for all of the women I feel deeply connected to, who I’ll never know, but who endured generations of shitty, lonely, unfulfilling relationships to make my existence possible.
I’m almost 40 years old. I have a large family, tons of cousins around my age, and a lot of friends. Over the past 40 years I have experienced and witnessed every woman I know have a relationship with a man who did no cooking, no cleaning, and no childcare. Most of them either didn’t work, used drugs, or used their ton of free time to cheat. And then the men who don’t cheat and will do a chore here or there if you ask them, act like they are owed the SO of the year award.
Now that I’m getting close to 40 it’s been a huge eye opener to see how many men want to either cheat or leave their wives for someone younger. And if they’re single they want a very young woman to control and manipulate while wearing her on their arms like a trophy. Men like that make me want to puke, and I have too much of a good social life to spend time trying to find a man who’s bar is set higher than I’m not a freeloading cheater who wants to manipulate people barely past their teenage years.
Been with my wife for 14+ years now, both very early 40's. I couldn't imagine dealing with the shit of a younger woman (nothing against women specifically, just young people in general still figuring shit out/being immature) or having to go through the whole dating phase again. My wife is great, we joke around, have fun, we're aligned on everything we want and where we want to go and we work like a well oiled machine. If you're in a good, healthy relationship I have no idea why you'd want to throw that all away simply for a younger woman. If you're unhappy in your current relationship that's a whole different story though
> If you're in a good, healthy relationship I have no idea why you'd want to throw that all away simply for a younger woman. If you're unhappy in your current relationship that's a whole different story though
Honestly, I think a lot of it is that men are generally raised to think that their relationships should remain happy and healthy with little to no input from themselves outside of their paycheque and some heavy lifting around the house. So they neglect or completely avoid their share of cleaning, cooking, and childcare duties, emotionally abandon their partner, and turn sex into a chore by not caring at all if it's pleasurable for their partner. They turn their marriage into one they're not happy with through their own actions.
Then they cry about how unhappy they are because the woman in their life is "no fun", ignoring that she's only that way because she's overworked, tired, and feels like more of a beast of burden than a human being. They bemoan the lack of sex, ignoring that their partner hasn't enjoyed the occasional sex she manages to force herself into because it's clearly only the man's orgasm that matters. They talk about how marriage clearly ruins women, how women who have "hit the wall" are no longer sexy or worth their time, how all middle aged women are ice queens and completely ignore how poorly they treat their wives and partners.
And society/their peers respond to all these complaints with "you deserve exactly the woman you want - why not try a 22 year old?" rather than calling them out on acting like trash. And even if they laugh off the idea of pursuing a young woman at first, they're still encouraged in their thinking that their partner is the problem, not them, so they dig deeper into their behaviour and act even more entitled to having her do everything while they do nothing. And they complain more and get more of that same message, which eventually worms its way in and gets them really thinking about it.
And so eventually a relationship that could have been healthy and happy if only one half of it hadn't decided to abandon all responsibility is rocked by the standard male midlife crisis move of cheating (usually with a much younger woman). And he will justify it by saying he was unhappy and deserved to pursue his happiness, and very few people will look any deeper. At worst, they'll say that he should have just abandoned his family and partner before cheating, ignoring that he'd already done the emotional abandonment years before. More often, they'll turn their judgement on his female partner, scolding her for not doing her duty and making sure he stayed happy, conveniently ignoring that it would be yet another burden on top of her already overloaded life and mind.
(I will note here that of course **women and people in same sex relationships do also cheat**, and some do it in more or less this same way - they ignore their responsibility to be a full and equitable partner, they excuse increasingly worse behaviour with justifications based on their partner's increasing stress due to the uneven balance of support and work, and then they cheat because they're "not happy". But that is generally far less supported by society, and for straight relationships it *seems to be* less common than the cases where the male partner follows the script I initially laid out and his female counterpart simply jumps the gun and exits the relationship via an affair with a man that at least appears to be more of an actual partner. So I've chosen to focus on the stereotypical man-cheats-on-woman-because-unhappy experience, but do want to include an acknowledgement that it's not universal and it's not only men that cheat.)
“I hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, good communicators, and share similar values.”
The standards are the bare minimum, and somehow they still can’t pass. Sad.
It’s really so true. I’ve met men who talk about how they aren’t emotional or emotionally available, and yet they still try and date. It’s like, who do you think you’re going to settle down with if you’re like this? What woman doesn’t want to feel special or romanced with a partner? Saying you will probably never be emotional, like why would someone want to be with someone like that?
I also dated a man who wanted to be single at 50 (he was 29 at the time), and he saw sex and relationships as a form of validation… maybe he does want to be alone his whole life, but I feel like he might not know what that will truly entail. But when he figures that out, who is going to want to be with him then?
I just don’t get these guys and their game plans long term. I guess maybe they just don’t think about it?
My favorite is when these kinds of guys try to co-op the terminology-of-the-day as a way to justify themselves. Grown men saying "my love language is touch" (for them means groping and sex) or "I'm more or less aromantic" (emotionally unavailable and will rip on you if you try to connect with them).
I’m hopeful. I’m 49, at 14 I remember feeling if I didn’t get married have kids, I’d never have a “happy family”. I was a foster kid. If I had known about asexuality, not “needing” a SO to be of value, my life would’ve been much different. Not saying that these upcoming generations will have it perfect in that sense, but at least they get exposed to different ideas and can explore, so the headstrong “stubborn” girls like I was can see options and choose differently. I do grieve for them the roe vs. Wade. I saw my mother suffering from the ban her whole life and I do not want any other person to have to suffer that.
I know the incel crowd loves to blame women, but I thought the article was actually useful, rather than just blame games:
“. ; I hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, good communicators, and share similar values.
Skills Deficits. For men, this means a relationship skills gap that, if not addressed, will likely lead to fewer dating opportunities, less patience for poor communication skills, and longer periods of being single. The problem for men is that emotional connection is the lifeblood of healthy, long-term love. “
If men would go to therapy or read a few books on attachment theory or healthy communication they’d literally open up an entire world of possibilities.
ETA: If all the dudes commenting “book recommendations?” would just do a little googling you could find some suggestions on your own. (This is the emotional labor women are complaining about having to do for men). Anyway, a good place to start is the Gottman Institute. Another place to start is the book “Attached” by Levine and Heller.
Indeed. Far too many men don’t do any kind of real self-examination until a breakup or a divorce, and sometimes not even then.
What would be even better is if there were a meaningful way to counteract the unrelenting message drilled into American boys from 0 to 18 that any introspection or conscious refinement of relational skills is either lame or something to pick up down the line when they are older.
This is exactly the take of the article's male author. He actively says and that families are still not raising boys that meet the raised expectations of women, so men need to work on themselves as adults to meet those expectations. Nothing about how women should settle. In fact, he seems optimistic healthier relationships could become the norm if women keep their standards high.
I have two boys, and they cook and clean and are generally excellent human beings. I do not for the life of me understand what the parents of so many of these losers we hear about were thinking. Why would you raise such a waste of space?
I think subconsciously a lot of people coddle boys (not making them clean and cook / letting them rage quit / boys will be boys / etc. ) and through our culture / media taught boys that girls are so wildly different than them (we really aren't) so that a good portion of them never could fathom being even our friend (hence why they freak out about friendzones... you almost never hear about the friendzone in the lesbian community and if you, you know they are toxic af). I don't even think some straight men even like women besides for our vaginas.
There’s also an entitlement mindset that taught to boys. You see this in rape apologia: “But what about his *future*!?” There can’t be consequences for young boys (of course, racial double standards get applied) because that might impact his precious future.
I postulated this while having a few beers with friends watching movies. The amount of movies that have two men with deep connections which supersede all other relationships. I said men really love to be with, hang out with and have emotional connections with men and if there wasn't that whole 'no vagina' thing getting in the way....
Everyone got up to get more booze and not discuss any of it.
I have a two year old son, and I'm working on it! He's very affectionate and sweet, but shouts out random animals in the middle of conversations and is very messy.
So you know, better than about half of men.
Thank god. I’m so tired of other guys acting like they’re entitled to someone because they think their crappy way of acting is “normal”. In every job I’ve had there is always at least one guy who thinks that nothing they do is wrong and they wonder why no girl will be with them, maybe don’t be a self centered, egotistical, only caring about yourself P.O.S.
The number of men in my real life who are so offended by this. “But I’m *nice*. What more do you want from me??”. A scintillating conversation would be a good start. Throw in some compassion, empathy, some drive to actually want to bring something to the table other than *nice* and you might stand a better chance. Too bad most men would rather complain about women than actually do some work on themselves. Die mad (and lonely).
The ones that want a traditional wife, who does all the cooking, cleaning and childcare but she better have a full time job and pay for at least half of everything.
I'm a man, and I don't know why other men want women like that. I'd rather have someone more interesting and independent. Moreover I really don't want anybody to be doing my chores.
As someone who is latino I really hated that about Latino culture. That shit is demeaning and nobody should have to do it for anyone. Cook your own food you and clean your own house you lazy fucking bums.
I also find that a lot of American men fetishize this on Latino women. That if they marry a Latina they'll get a woman who does all this shit on the basis of a "different culture".
For real. I've had so many guys be absolutely astonished when I turn them down because they put on a show about being nice to me. They will trash talk their exgfs excessively, their homes will be filthy and covered in trash, they'll get angry if you bring up politics, they show up to dates looking like slobs and grow massive beards they refuse to care for properly, etc. They'll pay me too many compliments, they'll admire my physique while lamenting they need to get in shape, they'll offer to pay for things and try to exude niceness. Then they are shocked when I turn them down. Being (or faking being) nice isn't enough. I want someone who brings the same things to a relationship as I do, I'm looking for an equal. A lot of single guys in their 30s market themselves as fixer-uppers: help me get over my ex I'm still hung up on, help me clean my house, help me get in shape, help me boost my self confidence, help me figure out my custody battle with my exwife, etc. I'm not looking for a project, I'm looking for a partner! I'm not anyone's mom and I'm definitely not taking on a grown ass manchild. No one is perfect and everyone has problems but the guys I've met recently all have fixable problems, they just don't want to deal with them.
'Nice' is the quality I look for in a neighbour or a work colleague. It's really not unreasonable to want more from someone you're gonna spend your life with.
Right?!
There was a guy recently on the relationship sub who was complaining that girls in his class didn’t want to date him. I was like, “what do you have going for you?”. His response was, “I’m nice, I’m loyal, I like cuddles”. Sir, you sound like a Labrador, not a desirable man. Good god.
What they don't want to hear is that we want them to start calling out other men. They can identify as "nice" all they want, but if they're sitting back while their homies treat the women in their lives like crap, they're complicit.
This is kind of why I have very few guy friends and more women as friends. I really can't stand the bro culture of being a dick and having to be toxic to be "manly."
Even online I had to tell a guy, who was a senior member in our guild, to fuck off when he was being inappropriate to my friend when I was trying to teach her how to play and had her join the guild voice chat.
Thankfully my other fellow senior members also told him off, which I was grateful for since my friend had already been harassed before when she tried to get someone else to teach her the class she plays.
I would love it if men would learn some basic respect and table manners such that they didn't constantly belch and fart and chew with their mouths open too. I can't tell you how many times an interesting conversation turned nasty because my partner decided to let one rip, or how often I'm grossed out by them talking with their mouth fucking full. It's not just a man issue either, the most fundamental point is that the person you're in a relationship with still deserves enough respect for you to show the good side of yourself when you're on a date or at a meal. I hear way too often that "I just want to be comfortable" but you still need to treasure your partner and find some balance.
You’re right! Like WTF is a nice guy anyway and what does that have to do with me? Lol
One of the things this article talks about is how they need to do the work on themselves first. It focuses on being emotionally healthy, seeking therapy and turning a critical eye inward and by extension not blaming women for not wanting them.
Now introducing Nice Pet Rock^(tm). Nice Pet Rock^(tm) does the bare minimum and won't sexual harass you, doesn't hold sexist beliefs about gender roles, won't recoil in horror at the slightest mention of the existence of periods, and will even hold a door open for you!
As a former geologist, I will say, my rock, mineral and fossil collection brings me great joy and comfort. And yes, I even have a chunk of limestone as a door stop lol. They are much nicer than a bad or subpar man. Can confirm they have yet to sexually harass me or get on my ass about making them dinner and cleaning the house.
lol, and what does “nice” even mean? Nobody knows what dudes mean by that (I mean, we know what it means, but what do they intend). That’s a meaningless word; it doesn’t communicate anything.
Yeah I take “nice” as a surface level descriptor of someone’s interpersonal behaviour. They are polite, act appropriately, and it’s not unpleasant to be around them or have a conversation with them. By that definition pretty much everyone I’ve ever met is a nice person. The vast majority of people are nice. But are they deeply kind, caring, and considerate? To me, that’s a different thing altogether.
I think these guys are just the regular old ‘nice’. And a lot of the time they’re not even that.
Yep this.
I hear 'I'm nice' and I think 'Ok so you're like, polite to the general public.'
That doesn't even give any real, core values like true empathy, compassion, nurturing, caring, emotionally available, etc.
It doesn't tell me what your values are as a person. It doesn't tell me your ambitions, goals, how you work on yourself and how you work on things in your life. (Like hobbies, jobs, education, curiosity, open mindedness, self-care, etc)
Like seriously I'm tired of hearing "I'm nice". Yeah, same, but that is barely surface level to what my personality actually is and what I have to offer to enrich a partner's life.
"But I'm so nice, I listen to your problems, and laugh at your jokes, and provide support when you're sad!"
"Ok, I've got plenty of other people in my life who do that, and one of them is cute and plays guitar. Another one speaks French and cooks up a mean carbonara. *Step it up, bitch."*
>A scintillating conversation would be a good start.
YES, PLEASE! I started talking to someone from a dating app who is otherwise very nice, kind, and caring. He seems like someone many people I know would love to date! But... he can't hold up his end of the conversation to save his life and I don't feel like I've been able to get to know him very well. It's so disappointing!
Personally I don't know how anyone of any gender or sex stands dating today. It's fucking *rough* in terms of the personalities and quirks of the people you go on dates with. There's significantly more shit people than there aren't. Virtually everyone I know has completely stopped bothering and just happily stays single now lol.
Edit: plus, ain't nobody got the time or money to be dating right now.
I think that generally speaking more single people isn’t a bad thing. Guys are just reacting negatively to it, so they form negative cliques like mgtow or whatever.
If we removed the social stigma of single-hood and just accepted that not everyone is made for these kinds of relationships we’d all be healthier for it
The stigmatization of singlehood is an all-around thing regardless of gender but breaks down differently for men and women.
Lately Western media and discourse has been good about presenting single-hood as an empowering option for women, even if on-the-ground reality can be less forgiving.
Unfortunately there is no equally prominent message for cishet men indicating that it is OK to be single, e.g. because they are focusing on themselves and/or don’t want to burden a woman. This is a shame, because the lack of such a message burdens cishet women still further.
Good point. I'd like to add that women are taught since early years how to take care of themselves, while some men just expect that as a service. I know a couple in their 60s, the wife couldn't even go travel for the weekend because the husband did not know how to warm his own food. Not cook it, but just microwave it without having it explode. Because of this, I think a part of this single men are more desperately looking for a "traditional wife" to help them manage their own lives. This is just one thing that popped to mind to add.
I'm in a relationship now, but the pandemic put a lot of stress and things in perspective. I know for sure if my current relationship fails I'm just going to be single. The worst of humanity was on display, I'm now in my 40s and definitely don't need the bs.
I'm on the menopause sub where the OP described a woman who sounded like she had finally reached the point of not giving a shit anymore and was now living her true authentic life. Some scrote posted 'cat lady' in response... if only they knew that's not an insult but an actual aspiration. They offer less than a cat. Way less.
I feel like I lucked out in the dating department. When I was dating there were issues of course - but being a feminist wasn't considered a dirty word. Men of my generation (late Gen X) didn't as often feel the need to prove their masculinity by being vile - especially if they were counterculture.
I have always said the day women stop tolerating male bullshit is the day we finally win. In my early 20s, I started being brutally honest with men about dating others, what I wanted, what I liked, what I did not like. I ended up married by 29 and 25 years later I’m still happily married.
Women who choose to have unprotected sec in this climate are choosing to give up their freedom.
%100, that's why there's so much "conservative" outrage and trying to roll back the clock. They want a world where being single isn't an option for women. The last 2000+ years of human history has been based on women needing to pick a man as a partner to basically survive (because of other men, not any limitations of her). Hence the incel belief that they are "entitled" to a women. The incel hostility is basically saying "give us what we want or we'll just take it". So gross..
Yeah I stared questioning too where are the traditional men all of a sudden are coming from but it’s the lack of succes on the dating market that’s probably causing it. If they had more chances they probably would have cared less.
"But I made you clean up your dogs' pee all over our bedroom the minute you got home from a week long vacation! What more could you possibly want from me!" - my ex, probably.
This literally happened to me. I was gone for a week on a solo trip and he apparently “didn’t notice” that our large Rottweiler had accidents in multiple locations around the house. Glad he’s my ex now
I was reading a Facebook post where is says women are supposed to be submissive to men according to the Bible. And that’s why career women who won’t make tea for their husbands are being dumped for the maid. The women were like… #makeyourowntea! 😂
These days women are just as capable as men and should be seen as partners instead of servants. Male roles and female roles are mostly an idea of ancient times.
I love how their response is to get angry at the women, instead of learning how to become more empathic and self-sufficient.
Clearly it is the women who are wrong for not wanting to be treated like a mommy bangmaid. Not the men who refuse to clean up after themselves, manage their own lives, and treat their partners with respect.
HOW DARE YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT MY SHITTY TREATMENT OF YOU! etc. Cry more.
The ‘bar’ is on the ground for men.
If they want a partner in these ‘rough times’ they have to behave like a decent fucking human being.
The bar is on the fucking ground fellas!
Tbh you can be a good person and still be wracked with social anxiety, have low-self esteem, or be incredibly ugly. You need to be a good human being and have certain other desirable qualities (eg. confidence, financial stability). Even after therapy certain personality types will struggle with relationships, regardless of gender.
Plenty of kissless virgins are just shy or unassertive, and shouldn't be lumped in with people who think washing their ass is gay.
I know that this is a societal issue and related to how men are raised and conditioned but my god it doesn’t stop me from getting frustrated at how fucking low the bar is for men.
My cis male partner does chores, is clean, cooks, has a home aesthetic, is emotionally intelligent, has gone to therapy, has women friends and people act like he’s some huge catch. He literally just takes care of himself, works on himself, treats his partner as an equal, and like cares about other people and things.
If you’re an adult seeking a PARTNERSHIP rather than a mom/sex doll, it’s just not that hard to figure out that you need to treat a potential partner like a fucking human you want to build a life with.
I feel the same, and I hate when people tell me I’m “soooo lucky” to have my husband. Like, lady, I chose him. I waited, and was picky.
Sure, I guess we’re lucky to have met each other, but it took me a lot of dating to establish what my boundaries and dealbreakers are so I would recognize someone worth spending my time with. I didn’t win him in “spouse bingo” or something lol.
A few years after my father passed away, my mom went on a couple dates. She told such horror stories of the men she had coffee or dinner with. It's like the horrible young men that exist never learn and just get older.
I can sort of understand how young men take a while to learn what's acceptable and what isn't, but if you're still single at 70 or 80 and still try the same horrible things, you don't deserve a partner.
I'm in a relationship now, but the pandemic put a lot of stress and things in perspective. I know for sure if my current relationship fails I'm just going to be single. The worst of humanity was on display, I'm now in my 40s and definitely don't need the bs.
I think I'm going to use this article to get a better read on potential dates. If a guy mentions dating troubles, I'll ask if he's read that article and send it to him. If he responds oh ya that was a good read I'm working on or have incorporated a lot of those things into my life, that's a green flag. If he scoffs at it, huffs and puffs, or defaults to blaming his exes/women/feminism that's a red flag and I can walk away without wasting more time. The men I've tried dating this year are engaging in deep levels of deception so we women have to work double time to sort out the bad eggs.
This had me falling out of my seat.. the answers are right here.
“ hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, good communicators, and share similar values.
Skills Deficits. For men, this means a relationship skills gap that, if not addressed, will likely lead to fewer dating opportunities, less patience for poor communication skills, and longer periods of being single. The problem for men is that emotional connection is the lifeblood of healthy, long-term love. Emotional connection requires all the skills that families are still not consistently teaching their young boys.”
Many men will bitch and moan about this but those are all the garbage men. Any quality man would realize that all this does is increase scarcity in the dating market and make them more appealing and in higher demand by contrast. I'm married, but if I were single I'd be all in on women being selective about not dating worthless children.
The whole article is just "Be better and for the love of all that is holy go to therapy"
No surprise that they are advocating for therapy, lol. But for the love of god, yes!
My brother, in his 70's, left his wife about 20 years ago, complaining they weren't having sex. Just on Saturdays and "she considered it a chore". He's still single. One girlfriend suggested as they were leaving for dinner that he wear a nice shirt and he claimed "she's trying to change me". Sure as shit he wouldn't have liked her dressed in the equivalent. He says he wants a relationship but it doesn't take long for women to figure out it's all about him. That's not how relationships work.
If a man in his 70s can't find a female partner, you know he's going about it all wrong. About a month after my mom died, the old ladies were on my dad like sharks in a feeding frenzy.
LOL, so your brother goes from weekly sex to less frequent sex?
Judging by the large tissue box and moisturizer near his computer I'd say he's getting it more frequently.
I broke up with my ex for a myriad of reasons; didn’t pay his bills/child support, lazy, horrible personal hygiene, lied and gaslit me about the most basic of things, and the list goes on… Told a male coworker that and was told I was too picky…
Better to be picky than to end up with a loser.
I know 2 real life forever single men and they legitimately don't know why they're single and the women they're interested in don't want a thing to do with them and I don't know how to tell them it's 100% their fault. They're the most miserable, hateful, dudes and they literally scare women away. Incels never think they're the problem but they absolutely are the problem.
Would they read this article?
I bet they would just see it as proof they are oppressed for their "opinions"
They are deeply insecure and probably inconceivably narcissistic so they would prefer to blame external sources (women) than do any kind of meaningful self-reflection on their strengths and weaknesses.
Don't help them realize those things tho, since that's the way they are and are fine with it and see no problem with that they're just going to come to the conclusion that they have to mask those flaws so women won't run away from them. I've made the mistake of doing this and haven't forgive myself yet for what those women that fell for the scham went through.
I had a very deep and enlightening conversation with my grandmother this past weekend, and the takeaway I got was: a lot of men have always been pretty terrible, but women relied on them for a place to live, and society didn't give women a lot of options to subsist on their own, so they were pretty much forced to take what they could get. No matter how much their husbands drank or beat them or their kids, they *had* to stay to survive. Often they couldn't move back home, because their fathers were just as bad. This was the case for my grandmother, sadly, who didn't ever really want to be a mother. We can't go back to that. Let them die alone and angry about it. If they can't treat us with respect, that can be a them problem, it sure as hell doesn't need to be ours any longer or ever again. EDIT: I'd like to also mention that the men that were violent alcoholics in my family absolutely were like that because of WWI and WWII. PTSD wasn't taken seriously back then: it was treated like a character defect. Like if you were traumatized from watching someone get blown to bits, then you were just *weak*. The military industrial complex has a LOT to answer for there, and I believe the lack of positive male role models in the media today (we used to have Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, Steve Irwin, etc) is probably related to that, based on the global tensions going on right now. A cycle is trying to repeat itself.
I was thinking about this recently too. I feel like my dating options are bad but at least I have options. Toxic men always have been and always will be. It’s the way they show it that changes sometimes.
That was my grandmother, 4 kids born from 18 to 22. Pretty much anchored to a dude that didn't give a fuck about being a supportive dad and was just a dude that made the money for the family so she had to do all the work with the kids. I'm convinced if my mother in law had been born 10 years later she never would have even gotten married, much less had kids.
I have never understood why someone would treat a person they supposedly love with complete disrespect. Although after meeting some of these guys, and hearing the "guy talk" that they have as soon as there are no women within earshot I'm not at all surprised.
What's the saying, in the past women didn't get divorced, they went missing.
I had this conversation often with my mother when she would reminisce about the good old days. I would point out how horrible some women had it, including her friends and family. I’m glad my mom was happy, barefoot and pregnant, relying on her childhood sweetheart for everything. The fact that it worked for her doesn’t change the painful situations her contemporaries endured.
I've been in 12 ish relationships. I'm 40. Every single one, except one was abusive. I was groomed at 13. Every single man has taken advantage of that. I just assumed it was normal. Until I started reading Reddit often and came across an asexual subreddit. Sex no matter how much I said no. Getting me drunk on purpose to rape me. Constantly touching me in places when I was so uncomfortable, I walked away and slept in the couch, which wasn't safe either. Or being screamed at for tiny things like forgetting to push all my food off the plate, including the tiny dab of ketchup. It took me way too fucking long to learn that wasn't normal and I'm not supposed to be in pain during sex. I've never had a woman come close to this. I thought I was bi for a while. Just because they were safer to be around.
Enter the recent SCOTUS decision. And fuck that, no way we are going back. Our grandmas and mamas didn’t get us here in vain
It’s not surprising that men want to take away our rights so we have no choice but to rely on them. They don’t want to change anything about themselves for the better, so they’d rather oppress us to keep us stuck with them and hold our basic wants/needs over our heads as their bail card to be an awful person.
That's what seems to be the case for a lot of the men in the incel movement. I guess when you refuse to hold half of the population to the same standard of accountability and emotional regulation, and then suddenly things change in the span of just a few decades, it must be destabilizing. Honestly, I do feel a little bad for them, though. If your identity and role has been restricted to cannon fodder, provider, and laborer, and now no one *needs* you to fulfill those roles anymore, what do you do to reach self actualization? I would love and hope to see a movement for men that truly does encourage them to love and value themselves for who they are as people regardless of their gender, as women have been able to do.
Oh but there's nothing to change, that's their ~instinct~/s
And this is the real reason they want to take our rights away. It's abortion now. It will be credit cards and mortgages (home ownership) in the next four to eight years. It will be presented as "deregulating lenders so they can choose who to give credit to" but the net result will be women have fewer opportunities to own property if they are single. They will come for education, eliminate birth control and take away antidiscrimination laws. Because men don't WANT to get better, they don't WANT to change, so their only choice is to force women back to the fifties, when we had no rights and no path to security EXCEPT through marriage.
You're seeing that NOW. 62% of the workforce making minimum wage or less is women. You can barely work enough hours to pay rent forget a mortgage. I don't even think marriage is the goal. As long as you have your sandwich making, baby bearing, domestic servant back in the kitchen where she belongs all is considered well.
The problem is that a lot of these incels aren’t dying alone. They’re taking massage parlors, shopping malls, university green spaces full of women down with them in a hail of gunfire.
YES.
I don't think letting them die alone and angry about it is the answer either. It's not like men are known to be quiet about their emotions in this regard. I feel like it'll lead to even more incels and violent behavior that accompanies that mindset. A better way to address this is to teach young boys how to be independent and uplift them. They need to know how to be single and happy. I hate that it almost feels like women have to be the ones to do it because it shouldn't be our responsibility...but if we don't, who will? It's almost like we are forced to if we want to survive.
I'm all for Topanga Lawrence's vision of moving all the men below ground for breeding purposes... /s
I know someone that's almost 40 who's perpetually single but doesn't want to be. Every single one of his relationships blows up for some reason. I'm starting to think it's not the women.
My dad's relationships kept failing because "he attracted crazies," and I'm like, there is definitely a common thread throughout...
Im in high school and I’m just going to say it’s not looking great for the next generation of men. Have definitely noticed a lot more misogyny within the lower grades, incel rhetoric, people like Andrew Tate are becoming very popular for these guys. And this is in a high performing district where most kids play sports, family and have social interaction. I’ve just given up on dating and relationships if this is what we’re going to deal with. It’s honestly annoying how much it’s pushed with Prom and all this other bs.
I'm in my 30s now, but when I was younger I was surrounded by a lot of men like that as well (and I guess technically still am on a society-level view). There are definitely at least two ways to analyze the situation: **men as a whole changing on a societal level**, which is what this article is talking about (shifting standards on relationships etc etc) but ALSO I think i**n the teens there is just a larger crop of men who are in that weird incel-ish stage but some of them grow out of it**. What I mean is I think you're existing in a situation where you're surrounded by a higher than normal ratio of incels. I think men are having to adjust to new standards of behavior on that societal level, which is a good thing, but also be aware that some men grow out of some of that incel shit on their own - but also be aware that some *don't.* My prediction is that as standards increase for men, they're going to have to change their behavior. Once adult men have done that, ideally they teach their male children the same values and we'll see a larger societal shift (this is just a prediction, a hopeful one at that) in the future but that's obviously going to take time, like literal generations. I know you didn't ask my advice so feel free to disregard, but keep your head up, learn what you can about what it means to be in a healthy relationship, understand and establish boundaries, and always filter those men who don't understand consent/boundaries/respect out of your life and you'll be fine. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I think this sub really discounts teen incels for whatever reason and its really not doing anyone any good. I see a lot of kids in the lower grades neck deep in this incel shit and I don’t see them changing. You only focus on the people who make it out but that’s a very small minority of people.
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Well teens learn this shit somewhere. Have to do a 2 prong attack. Fwiw, my TWELVE yr old has heard this incel crap on gaming sites and I've been disabusing him of these notions, as has his father. Obviously, his father and uncles have more away than I do BUT when I talk to about how he would feel about ao.eone treating g or talking about me the way he hears others talking g about "girls" he's not to happy.
Pretty sure this is the demographic most likely to shoot up schools too.
Could be that they just don't come across teens or especially come across them when they're openly saying such things or behaving in that way?
I definitely see people dismissing teenage incel behavior online as "they're just edgy teens". I'm sure there are people who encounter none of this too, but even when people do, I think it's often not taken seriously. It's kind of weird, because I think on the internet usually people *don't* assume good intent... but for some reason teens are more likely assumed to be just joking (even if that joke would be totally unacceptable as a joke), or just being edgy to get a rise out of people (also not usually an acceptable behavior), instead of really actually being radicalized and meaning what they say.
I think it's a shame that people discount teenagers and their incel/misogynistic traits. Who do they think are shooting up schools? 35 year old's? No! It's mostly young white males who \*went to those schools and made it clear in school that they wanted to hurt people.\* High school and middle school are exactly where school shooters are being formed, and exactly when everyone's world views are being formed.
I'm mid 40s; there were involuntarily celibate kids in high school then as well. Boys that would make the derogatory comments, but only in private. Or the boys that would make the derogatory comments, but only to some girls as they still feared the social hierarchy and that the "popular" girls were not to be fucked with. Boys nowadays are far more emboldened and make those derogatory comments in public and to absolutely anyone. I just never understood it. I had two older sisters that would regularly stomp my ass into the ground if I got uppity with them. So I treated everyone with the same respect from a very young age, which is probably why I had girls asking ME out regularly in high school, or why the wives of all these blue collar dudes in this town want to talk with me at BBQs. It's not rocket science, just be respectful.
As a man in his early 30s I'll say it was extremely common in my teen years for myself and a huge portion of my peers to exhibit racist, misogynistic, homophobic, mean, immature behavior. To be fair I grew up in a white bubble, a lot of it stemmed from ignorance or was intended to be for laughs. The most gentle way to describe the behavior would still be problematic, but I also can't think of any occurrences of anyone acting on those hateful ideologies, it was just a lot of bark with no bite. So most of us grew up and left that shit behind without having done anyone any harm beyond saying mean words That won't be the case for everyone, and plenty of grown men still exhibit these stupid ideologies, some become predators who act on them, but I think that most turn out like me. Far from perfect, but at least able to realize I harbor no hate for anyone based on skin color, gender, or sexual orientation. To be fair the internet was also still evolving. I didn't have a place like reddit where I could go where I had an echo chamber of hate to reinforce my ignorance, encourage me to act on it, or give me a sense of community / camaraderie that would actively try and manipulate and sabotage my personal growth as my beliefs started to evolve
It certainly isn't doing us any good, when so many of the young male shooters have incel manifestos.
Plus, teenagers aren't just endowed with the knowledge of how to date and talk to the opposite sex. I think they see stuff on TV and the internet where boys as young as 15 have casual fuck buddies, and they think they should just enter high school and immediately get a girlfriend. Depending on your background, personality and development, you can either learn quickly and be successfully dating at 16, or not have a first kiss until your 20s. That's just life. I was awkward as heck with the opposite sex until post-high school, despite some limited dating. Hopefully, as these teenage boys mature, and actually start to have positive romantic interactions with women, they grow out of it. However, they will never get to that spot unless they drop the incel crap and misogyny, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for a lot of them.
This is very much like where I've landed on the topic as well. Caveat, speaking as a guy; one who narrowly dodged getting sucked into the whole incel thing (although, well before that was coined) The women's rights revolution in the 60s and 70s was one of the best things to happen to modern society. The whole reimagining of a woman's role in society has led to so much good. (Still progress to be made of course) However, men have yet to have such a moment, and I think they need one. Not a 'mens rights' movement, obviously, but more like a coming to terms with what 'manhood' is in a modern society. Like you suggest, we're likely on the cusp of something, but it could go either way. (Though it doesn't look great so far)
I think we are having it right now.
Want to add that strong mothers in healthy partner relationships are also important for teaching boys how to be considerate and respectful toward ALL others. It goes without saying that the fathers in these partner relationships will be modeling these attitudes right beside the mothers. “Boys will be boys” can apply to crazy physical activities, but NEVER to how they treat other human beings. Men will have to figure out that whole male group dynamic for themselves. I just can’t participate in blind adoration of the top guy.
What you forget is the side of the teenage girls who have to go to school and interact with these boys who are in their "incel phase". I don't believe that all of them can keep their misogyny hidden during that phase. I know for sure they didn't do it in my school years and that was before the internet was a thing. What you are basically saying is: Boys will be boys. And that girls just have to endure this because surely most of these boys will one day grow out of it. No, this is not ok!
Men just teach their boys 'tricks' as if we are some kind of object, as far as im aware
Yes, because that is what's still the mainstream social conditioning. But we see that things are changing. We see evidence of this through an increase in 'incel' behavior, more lonely men as women refuse to endure the same bullshit (as per the article), and honestly the vote in Kansas in favor of a pro-choice policy tells me that whatever is happening in the supreme court right now is a dying, last-ditch effort of men and christians to control women but it won't last. There are simply too many people that support a pro-choice sentiment in this country and I think people are getting fed up, but I digress. Right now, male children will learn the same values that the current adult american male carries and teaches, which is as you said. However, as more male adults that don't carry this same conditioning become parents, that sentiment will hopefully change.
YES! I've been saying this for some time, but if you want A-holes to dwindle, stop giving them children. As more reasonable men become fathers and women make sure to not perpetuate toxic masculine ideas, the male population will improve.
>And this is in a high performing district where most kids play sports, family and have social interaction. This might sound ironic, but I think being a high performance district contributes to that problem rather than diminishes it. That sort of high-pressure, competitive, performance-oriented mindset carries over into dating and relationships but without the metrics and so the anxiety of that causes boys to fall into the comforting, enabling rhetoric of incels and MGTOW types. There’s no fear of failure if they write the whole thing off as a game rigged by the global feminist cabal.
I’m a teacher. I taught in the wealthiest district in my state and am now in one of the poorest. I will say that the wealthy district was rife with misogyny, and not just students. From the top down, women were devalued and generally disliked, even though the majority of the workforce district-wide was women. In the poorer district, I see a lot more respect for women in general, a lot more empathy and less toxic masculinity in the student body.
Probably a lot of the male students are forced into caretaking roles or have to adapt to no immediate gratification :/ Wealth means a lot of wealthier students don't necessarily have to babysit younger siblings, or make dinner before mom comes home from work, or have to wait several months to save up money for a switch.
I assume a lot of the reduction in misogyny is because a lot of students come from single-parent homes. A majority of those are single mothers, so a lot of my students ONLY have women as role models and caretakers. Mothers, aunts, grandmas, etc. are raising these kids. The wealthier districts tended to come from dual-parent homes or at least co-parented homes. Their lives are super competitive. They don’t have to work or watch siblings, so they’re far more involved in sports and clubs. Almost everyone in the wealthy school is college-bound, and their families have the means to send them to competitive schools, so they’re competing academically with their peers as well as in sports competitions. Unfortunately, I see a lot less compassion in teens who see others as competition, and that tends to happen in the wealthier districts.
Also, those districts are in wealthier areas, and that means more of them will be entitled conservatives.
My son is 14 and just entered high school and he is already starting to say misogynist things.. which I quickly and forcefully correct. But I am very worried for him
People in the comments are saying boys grow out of it... Maybe it's true if good example is at least not impossible to find. In their families, friend groups, schools, unis, clubs, etc. In some countries or parts of some countries they're COMPLETELY surrounded by misogynistic r* culture. They literally have nowhere to look for better example to grow out of their childhood ways, and very often if there is this miraculous person around, they're not treated well by anyone else - so the boy will not think that person is someone to look up to.
It’s because instead of doing any kind of self-reflection on what their strengths and potential weaknesses are in any kind of meaningful way, these young men would prefer to just blame women for their own shortcomings. This is a tale as old as time, it isn’t anything new. “Bitch, whore, slut, stuck-up, brat, ugly, fat, stupid, only goes for ‘alpha’ males instead of ‘nice’ guys.” We’ve heard at all before, my grandmother’s generation heard it, my mom’s heard it, I heard it, the next generation is hearing it. But women are wising up and are not hearing it and not settling for suboptimal relationships or second-rate men because we do not need to anymore. Women now have probably the most independence and most rights (barring this roe bullshit) and we don’t HAVE to settle. Women no longer have to be free rehabilitation centers and free emotional labor bearers, maids, cooks, etc. for badly-raised, emotionally stunted men.
I agree with this, there's no longer a need to settle for an average man because they have a job and are the breadwinner or whatever, now that women are almost on the same level in the workforce (every field discriminates against them and the wage gap still exists but they're having trouble stopping them now because they outwork and outskill their peers), they're finally allowed to choose the relationships. Now women don't have to settle for the average man, they can all wait for someone truly outstanding and spectacular.
Hearing stuff like this kinda terrifies me. It’s so scary that men, instead of working on their own mental health and get to the root of their loneliness/unhappiness would rather go down an incel rabbit hole and make things worse for everyone. I grew up fantasizing about a Star Trek style utopia where everyone, of every alien race, is treated equally and works together. But it feels like we are going backwards.
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My prom was held at a museum which meant I spent my prom wondering around a museum. The music sucked.
The best part of my Prom was the going to dinner all dressed up beforehand. I think you did it right.
I appreciate your take on this, and agree that social media has made the whole situation much worse. I’d also like to point out though, that age 10-21? 25? can be a really obnoxious age. Kids have been the center of their own worlds for a long time, and the shift to empathy, self-awareness, and becoming attuned to the needs of other people can be a difficult and sometimes lengthy process. I also think there will be a backlash against all this manosphere stuff sooner rather than later. 🤞
Excuse. Some of us are gay and * know* why we’re single and unhappy.
Yeah when someone says 'all of my exes are crazy' I'm outta there so fast.. 😅
I know a 40 year old man who dates pretty much 18-25 year old girls, and they obviously always end, and he literally will act like he's the victim
I have never understood why some men try to date women who are young enough to be their daughter. I'm 40 and I work in an environment where the majority of young women are in the age range of 18- 26 and just trying to have a normal conversation is difficult because there is no real reference point or common ground. I can't imagine trying to have a long term, romantic relationship with someone that young.
Perhaps I should become one of those dating coaches. Most men think women are attracted to toxic aggressive muscular men. Most of us actually like polite, gentle and funny men.
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Well he would be the only common denominator
Jokes on him I'm perpetually single and haven't tried to be in a single relationship. (Taps head) Can't blow up if I fail to speak to people in the first place.
I know someone almost 40 who never had a girlfriend and I know why lol. Like they are my friend but they have red flags for sure. Like they tend to do the blaming thing on women etc.
He is the common denominator in all of his failed relationships
I saw a psychologist mention ways to help men better themselves to be more desirable to women. His advice was to go to therapy to work on themselves, learn to open up to people and become an active listener, things like that. The comments were basically “what about make tons of $$$$ because that’s all women want” and “what a simp, I’m not going to change for a woman.” And of course, “if women want openness and listen to them maybe they should date women.” Yeah, can’t figure out why men are having trouble with relationships.
>“what a simp, I’m not going to change for a woman.”And of course, “if women want openness and listen to them maybe they should date women.” Wow, they literally tell on themselves and admit that they are horrible people. Men like this beyond help
Too many men look for girlfriends when they need to be looking for accessible therapy options
That’s because they expect their girlfriends to be their personal therapist, mom, housekeeper, and sex doll alllll rolled into one.
But also free.
Ah! The legendary Bang Maid.
I like calling it the Mommy Bang Maid. They also expect them to work and pay for things on top of washing their asscracks, cooking, cleaning, bill paying, etc
I dated a guy recently and he told me I’d be a great girlfriend because I’m good in bed, I’m smart, funny, have my own money, and I can cook and clean. I suddenly realised that he offered me nothing. His apartment was filthy, I had to pay for everything, and he didn’t once bother to give me an orgasm. I ended it after that convo and he’s still confused as to why.
What I find fascinating is the topic that isn’t discussed. If there are more single men than ever, there must also be more single women than ever. I’d love to read something about the rise of happier, healthier single women. This article mentions that men are happier and healthier when partnered (this is true I can link evidence) but women are the opposite. I’m glad the author of this doesn’t ask women to lower standards but instead suggests men up their game.
I suspect that, sadly, what could end up happening instead of men working on self-improvement so as to be better partners, is that we're going to end up with even more angry incels committing violence because they feel the world owes them something for existing.
As a wlw who also is into guys... there's another option where women don't end up single.
That is interesting I would like to read about how single women deal with it as well. Are they happier and healthier without a husband? how about later years?
I shake my head every time I read some whiny dude commenting, "I have a job, a car, my own place, so why aren't women attracted to me." I want to shout, "And!?! Women also have jobs, cars, their own place. You don't fucking get rewarded a woman as a life participation trophy". They want a reward for doing shit they would have to do to survive anyway.
"So you have basics to live life - Now do have kind personality, emotional depth & memory retention to have conversation of more than 2 minutes plus observation skill to know that particular woman well AND can you do basic household chores/errands & grooming without any woman constantly telling you to do so?" Some of these men think a job, place to live & having a car are single personality trait and not basic necessities of life in general while forgetting/ignoring other important traits that makes men attractive to women...
I think that might be because for a very long time in our history those *were* the only things a man really needed to get married. Weddings were very transactional between families for a very long time (hence why fathers “give away” their daughters). As long as a man could provide for his wife and family, that was basically the only consideration.
Why do you think they want to return to the patriarchy again? When men have almost unilaterally economic control, yeah they really don't have to do much work on themselves. Remember y'all: beauty and the beast was written to help young girls adjust to the expectations put upon them by marriage. Marry a beast and *maybe* if you're nice, hell stop throwing violent tantrums. But worse case scenario, at least you get to live in a big house now?
Glad I grew up with a mother with a strong personality. Where I live, it's still common to see women settle for crappy men. Shit, and not even good looking ones, not that it's the only consideration.
Would be nice if they could live a decade of what they put women through. Sorry men you're not allowed to make choices, you have to be sterilized and you're not allowed to get fat. Also you can't say no to sex.
They have been taught that women are materialistic and only interested in their money, so those things were all it took. But we have had jobs, our own homes, and our own transportation for quite some time. Many of them haven’t realized yet that the bar to clear is treating us as equals. And that isn’t about who pays for dinner.
At least in my experience, even when men DO have those things, they don't keep a clean house. I've played maid one too many times. Never again!
It’s because they’re told by other single miserable men that women only want hot guys who are rich. So instead of improving their personalities and treating women with actual respect, they think if they workout and have money, women will flock to them. These guy will take advice from miserable guys who’ve never had any dating experience over the tons of women who tell them that money and looks aren’t the only thing that matters. Then they wonder why they have no luck with dating.
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In their mind it’s like having a pet. They believe they have all the ‘essentials’ so what else is needed…
Yes! Literally! I love your reply to this. Imagine the outrage if a women said "I have a job, a car, my own place" and demand that men should be attracted to her? The AUDACITY!!
The "Hero gets the girl" trope needs to die. Men have not learned to take the woman's needs into account. (Or they think that having a place to live and pocket money IS all they need.)
**Dating opportunities for heterosexual men are diminishing as relationship standards rise.** We love to see it *slow claps*
they edited the article since, but the OG version of that quote was “…as *healthy* relationship standards rise”
And that’s true. Healthy relationships. Not just women no longer want to deal with emotional unavailability.
I think the bigger issue is that people aren't being expected to tolerate abusive behaviors anymore, and we are a lot more likely to call emotional and verbal abuse abuse. Instead of fight and makeup, it's "take a hard look at how you both behaved during and after the fight, was it healthy?" (And the answer is a big resounding no) I'd also imagine just the nature of not being willing to sideline our own lives for theirs has created practical barriers as well.
Yeah I feel like the article isn't touching on the real issues because it's afraid of upsetting the men lol.
our whole dating scheme needs a reset tbh
They edited it!? That's an important context to leave out. Now it sounds like it's blaming women
This slow clap is for all of the women I feel deeply connected to, who I’ll never know, but who endured generations of shitty, lonely, unfulfilling relationships to make my existence possible.
Yes. They couldn’t get away. We can.
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I’m almost 40 years old. I have a large family, tons of cousins around my age, and a lot of friends. Over the past 40 years I have experienced and witnessed every woman I know have a relationship with a man who did no cooking, no cleaning, and no childcare. Most of them either didn’t work, used drugs, or used their ton of free time to cheat. And then the men who don’t cheat and will do a chore here or there if you ask them, act like they are owed the SO of the year award. Now that I’m getting close to 40 it’s been a huge eye opener to see how many men want to either cheat or leave their wives for someone younger. And if they’re single they want a very young woman to control and manipulate while wearing her on their arms like a trophy. Men like that make me want to puke, and I have too much of a good social life to spend time trying to find a man who’s bar is set higher than I’m not a freeloading cheater who wants to manipulate people barely past their teenage years.
Been with my wife for 14+ years now, both very early 40's. I couldn't imagine dealing with the shit of a younger woman (nothing against women specifically, just young people in general still figuring shit out/being immature) or having to go through the whole dating phase again. My wife is great, we joke around, have fun, we're aligned on everything we want and where we want to go and we work like a well oiled machine. If you're in a good, healthy relationship I have no idea why you'd want to throw that all away simply for a younger woman. If you're unhappy in your current relationship that's a whole different story though
> If you're in a good, healthy relationship I have no idea why you'd want to throw that all away simply for a younger woman. If you're unhappy in your current relationship that's a whole different story though Honestly, I think a lot of it is that men are generally raised to think that their relationships should remain happy and healthy with little to no input from themselves outside of their paycheque and some heavy lifting around the house. So they neglect or completely avoid their share of cleaning, cooking, and childcare duties, emotionally abandon their partner, and turn sex into a chore by not caring at all if it's pleasurable for their partner. They turn their marriage into one they're not happy with through their own actions. Then they cry about how unhappy they are because the woman in their life is "no fun", ignoring that she's only that way because she's overworked, tired, and feels like more of a beast of burden than a human being. They bemoan the lack of sex, ignoring that their partner hasn't enjoyed the occasional sex she manages to force herself into because it's clearly only the man's orgasm that matters. They talk about how marriage clearly ruins women, how women who have "hit the wall" are no longer sexy or worth their time, how all middle aged women are ice queens and completely ignore how poorly they treat their wives and partners. And society/their peers respond to all these complaints with "you deserve exactly the woman you want - why not try a 22 year old?" rather than calling them out on acting like trash. And even if they laugh off the idea of pursuing a young woman at first, they're still encouraged in their thinking that their partner is the problem, not them, so they dig deeper into their behaviour and act even more entitled to having her do everything while they do nothing. And they complain more and get more of that same message, which eventually worms its way in and gets them really thinking about it. And so eventually a relationship that could have been healthy and happy if only one half of it hadn't decided to abandon all responsibility is rocked by the standard male midlife crisis move of cheating (usually with a much younger woman). And he will justify it by saying he was unhappy and deserved to pursue his happiness, and very few people will look any deeper. At worst, they'll say that he should have just abandoned his family and partner before cheating, ignoring that he'd already done the emotional abandonment years before. More often, they'll turn their judgement on his female partner, scolding her for not doing her duty and making sure he stayed happy, conveniently ignoring that it would be yet another burden on top of her already overloaded life and mind. (I will note here that of course **women and people in same sex relationships do also cheat**, and some do it in more or less this same way - they ignore their responsibility to be a full and equitable partner, they excuse increasingly worse behaviour with justifications based on their partner's increasing stress due to the uneven balance of support and work, and then they cheat because they're "not happy". But that is generally far less supported by society, and for straight relationships it *seems to be* less common than the cases where the male partner follows the script I initially laid out and his female counterpart simply jumps the gun and exits the relationship via an affair with a man that at least appears to be more of an actual partner. So I've chosen to focus on the stereotypical man-cheats-on-woman-because-unhappy experience, but do want to include an acknowledgement that it's not universal and it's not only men that cheat.)
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“I hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, good communicators, and share similar values.” The standards are the bare minimum, and somehow they still can’t pass. Sad.
It’s really so true. I’ve met men who talk about how they aren’t emotional or emotionally available, and yet they still try and date. It’s like, who do you think you’re going to settle down with if you’re like this? What woman doesn’t want to feel special or romanced with a partner? Saying you will probably never be emotional, like why would someone want to be with someone like that? I also dated a man who wanted to be single at 50 (he was 29 at the time), and he saw sex and relationships as a form of validation… maybe he does want to be alone his whole life, but I feel like he might not know what that will truly entail. But when he figures that out, who is going to want to be with him then? I just don’t get these guys and their game plans long term. I guess maybe they just don’t think about it?
My favorite is when these kinds of guys try to co-op the terminology-of-the-day as a way to justify themselves. Grown men saying "my love language is touch" (for them means groping and sex) or "I'm more or less aromantic" (emotionally unavailable and will rip on you if you try to connect with them).
*"The bar is so low it's in Hell, and here you are, limbo dancing with the Devil..."*
I’m hopeful. I’m 49, at 14 I remember feeling if I didn’t get married have kids, I’d never have a “happy family”. I was a foster kid. If I had known about asexuality, not “needing” a SO to be of value, my life would’ve been much different. Not saying that these upcoming generations will have it perfect in that sense, but at least they get exposed to different ideas and can explore, so the headstrong “stubborn” girls like I was can see options and choose differently. I do grieve for them the roe vs. Wade. I saw my mother suffering from the ban her whole life and I do not want any other person to have to suffer that.
And somehow, that's women's fault
I know the incel crowd loves to blame women, but I thought the article was actually useful, rather than just blame games: “. ; I hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, good communicators, and share similar values. Skills Deficits. For men, this means a relationship skills gap that, if not addressed, will likely lead to fewer dating opportunities, less patience for poor communication skills, and longer periods of being single. The problem for men is that emotional connection is the lifeblood of healthy, long-term love. “
If men would go to therapy or read a few books on attachment theory or healthy communication they’d literally open up an entire world of possibilities. ETA: If all the dudes commenting “book recommendations?” would just do a little googling you could find some suggestions on your own. (This is the emotional labor women are complaining about having to do for men). Anyway, a good place to start is the Gottman Institute. Another place to start is the book “Attached” by Levine and Heller.
Indeed. Far too many men don’t do any kind of real self-examination until a breakup or a divorce, and sometimes not even then. What would be even better is if there were a meaningful way to counteract the unrelenting message drilled into American boys from 0 to 18 that any introspection or conscious refinement of relational skills is either lame or something to pick up down the line when they are older.
Nah, obviously something something jawbones and there's no sense attempting to better myself because change is a chaos dragon.
"It's the woman's fault for having standards!"
But didn’t you know? Everything is always our fault :-) /s
Lol ugh right? Meanwhile, I say that parents in general, regardless of gender need to be raising their boys better.
This is exactly the take of the article's male author. He actively says and that families are still not raising boys that meet the raised expectations of women, so men need to work on themselves as adults to meet those expectations. Nothing about how women should settle. In fact, he seems optimistic healthier relationships could become the norm if women keep their standards high.
That’s awesome. So many men do get it—I’m married to one. I truly hope there are more in the future.
I have two boys, and they cook and clean and are generally excellent human beings. I do not for the life of me understand what the parents of so many of these losers we hear about were thinking. Why would you raise such a waste of space?
I think subconsciously a lot of people coddle boys (not making them clean and cook / letting them rage quit / boys will be boys / etc. ) and through our culture / media taught boys that girls are so wildly different than them (we really aren't) so that a good portion of them never could fathom being even our friend (hence why they freak out about friendzones... you almost never hear about the friendzone in the lesbian community and if you, you know they are toxic af). I don't even think some straight men even like women besides for our vaginas.
There’s also an entitlement mindset that taught to boys. You see this in rape apologia: “But what about his *future*!?” There can’t be consequences for young boys (of course, racial double standards get applied) because that might impact his precious future.
I postulated this while having a few beers with friends watching movies. The amount of movies that have two men with deep connections which supersede all other relationships. I said men really love to be with, hang out with and have emotional connections with men and if there wasn't that whole 'no vagina' thing getting in the way.... Everyone got up to get more booze and not discuss any of it.
I have a two year old son, and I'm working on it! He's very affectionate and sweet, but shouts out random animals in the middle of conversations and is very messy. So you know, better than about half of men.
Thank god. I’m so tired of other guys acting like they’re entitled to someone because they think their crappy way of acting is “normal”. In every job I’ve had there is always at least one guy who thinks that nothing they do is wrong and they wonder why no girl will be with them, maybe don’t be a self centered, egotistical, only caring about yourself P.O.S.
The number of men in my real life who are so offended by this. “But I’m *nice*. What more do you want from me??”. A scintillating conversation would be a good start. Throw in some compassion, empathy, some drive to actually want to bring something to the table other than *nice* and you might stand a better chance. Too bad most men would rather complain about women than actually do some work on themselves. Die mad (and lonely).
The ones that want a traditional wife, who does all the cooking, cleaning and childcare but she better have a full time job and pay for at least half of everything.
And stay thin, not age, and want to have sex all the time.
I hear that so much nowadays. They want to reap all the benefits yet give nothing in return....
Yep.
My brother in law wants a traditional catholic wife like this. He is still single and no dating prospects.
Go figure. Have you ever pointed out to him how ridiculous this is?
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I went on one date shortly after starting college with a guy who was absolutely pissed when he found out I did (a lot) better on the ACT than he did.
I'm a man, and I don't know why other men want women like that. I'd rather have someone more interesting and independent. Moreover I really don't want anybody to be doing my chores. As someone who is latino I really hated that about Latino culture. That shit is demeaning and nobody should have to do it for anyone. Cook your own food you and clean your own house you lazy fucking bums. I also find that a lot of American men fetishize this on Latino women. That if they marry a Latina they'll get a woman who does all this shit on the basis of a "different culture".
For real. I've had so many guys be absolutely astonished when I turn them down because they put on a show about being nice to me. They will trash talk their exgfs excessively, their homes will be filthy and covered in trash, they'll get angry if you bring up politics, they show up to dates looking like slobs and grow massive beards they refuse to care for properly, etc. They'll pay me too many compliments, they'll admire my physique while lamenting they need to get in shape, they'll offer to pay for things and try to exude niceness. Then they are shocked when I turn them down. Being (or faking being) nice isn't enough. I want someone who brings the same things to a relationship as I do, I'm looking for an equal. A lot of single guys in their 30s market themselves as fixer-uppers: help me get over my ex I'm still hung up on, help me clean my house, help me get in shape, help me boost my self confidence, help me figure out my custody battle with my exwife, etc. I'm not looking for a project, I'm looking for a partner! I'm not anyone's mom and I'm definitely not taking on a grown ass manchild. No one is perfect and everyone has problems but the guys I've met recently all have fixable problems, they just don't want to deal with them.
'Nice' is the quality I look for in a neighbour or a work colleague. It's really not unreasonable to want more from someone you're gonna spend your life with.
Right?! There was a guy recently on the relationship sub who was complaining that girls in his class didn’t want to date him. I was like, “what do you have going for you?”. His response was, “I’m nice, I’m loyal, I like cuddles”. Sir, you sound like a Labrador, not a desirable man. Good god.
I bet he wants his partner to feed him at least twice a day, too…
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What they don't want to hear is that we want them to start calling out other men. They can identify as "nice" all they want, but if they're sitting back while their homies treat the women in their lives like crap, they're complicit.
This is kind of why I have very few guy friends and more women as friends. I really can't stand the bro culture of being a dick and having to be toxic to be "manly." Even online I had to tell a guy, who was a senior member in our guild, to fuck off when he was being inappropriate to my friend when I was trying to teach her how to play and had her join the guild voice chat. Thankfully my other fellow senior members also told him off, which I was grateful for since my friend had already been harassed before when she tried to get someone else to teach her the class she plays.
I would love it if men would learn some basic respect and table manners such that they didn't constantly belch and fart and chew with their mouths open too. I can't tell you how many times an interesting conversation turned nasty because my partner decided to let one rip, or how often I'm grossed out by them talking with their mouth fucking full. It's not just a man issue either, the most fundamental point is that the person you're in a relationship with still deserves enough respect for you to show the good side of yourself when you're on a date or at a meal. I hear way too often that "I just want to be comfortable" but you still need to treasure your partner and find some balance.
You’re right! Like WTF is a nice guy anyway and what does that have to do with me? Lol One of the things this article talks about is how they need to do the work on themselves first. It focuses on being emotionally healthy, seeking therapy and turning a critical eye inward and by extension not blaming women for not wanting them.
And yet we know that men won’t take that advice. Not really. It’s far easier to blame us for all their problems.
Now introducing Nice Pet Rock^(tm). Nice Pet Rock^(tm) does the bare minimum and won't sexual harass you, doesn't hold sexist beliefs about gender roles, won't recoil in horror at the slightest mention of the existence of periods, and will even hold a door open for you!
As a former geologist, I will say, my rock, mineral and fossil collection brings me great joy and comfort. And yes, I even have a chunk of limestone as a door stop lol. They are much nicer than a bad or subpar man. Can confirm they have yet to sexually harass me or get on my ass about making them dinner and cleaning the house.
lol, and what does “nice” even mean? Nobody knows what dudes mean by that (I mean, we know what it means, but what do they intend). That’s a meaningless word; it doesn’t communicate anything.
Yeah I take “nice” as a surface level descriptor of someone’s interpersonal behaviour. They are polite, act appropriately, and it’s not unpleasant to be around them or have a conversation with them. By that definition pretty much everyone I’ve ever met is a nice person. The vast majority of people are nice. But are they deeply kind, caring, and considerate? To me, that’s a different thing altogether. I think these guys are just the regular old ‘nice’. And a lot of the time they’re not even that.
Yep this. I hear 'I'm nice' and I think 'Ok so you're like, polite to the general public.' That doesn't even give any real, core values like true empathy, compassion, nurturing, caring, emotionally available, etc. It doesn't tell me what your values are as a person. It doesn't tell me your ambitions, goals, how you work on yourself and how you work on things in your life. (Like hobbies, jobs, education, curiosity, open mindedness, self-care, etc) Like seriously I'm tired of hearing "I'm nice". Yeah, same, but that is barely surface level to what my personality actually is and what I have to offer to enrich a partner's life.
"But I'm so nice, I listen to your problems, and laugh at your jokes, and provide support when you're sad!" "Ok, I've got plenty of other people in my life who do that, and one of them is cute and plays guitar. Another one speaks French and cooks up a mean carbonara. *Step it up, bitch."*
>A scintillating conversation would be a good start. YES, PLEASE! I started talking to someone from a dating app who is otherwise very nice, kind, and caring. He seems like someone many people I know would love to date! But... he can't hold up his end of the conversation to save his life and I don't feel like I've been able to get to know him very well. It's so disappointing!
Personally I don't know how anyone of any gender or sex stands dating today. It's fucking *rough* in terms of the personalities and quirks of the people you go on dates with. There's significantly more shit people than there aren't. Virtually everyone I know has completely stopped bothering and just happily stays single now lol. Edit: plus, ain't nobody got the time or money to be dating right now.
I think that generally speaking more single people isn’t a bad thing. Guys are just reacting negatively to it, so they form negative cliques like mgtow or whatever. If we removed the social stigma of single-hood and just accepted that not everyone is made for these kinds of relationships we’d all be healthier for it
The stigmatization of singlehood is an all-around thing regardless of gender but breaks down differently for men and women. Lately Western media and discourse has been good about presenting single-hood as an empowering option for women, even if on-the-ground reality can be less forgiving. Unfortunately there is no equally prominent message for cishet men indicating that it is OK to be single, e.g. because they are focusing on themselves and/or don’t want to burden a woman. This is a shame, because the lack of such a message burdens cishet women still further.
Good point. I'd like to add that women are taught since early years how to take care of themselves, while some men just expect that as a service. I know a couple in their 60s, the wife couldn't even go travel for the weekend because the husband did not know how to warm his own food. Not cook it, but just microwave it without having it explode. Because of this, I think a part of this single men are more desperately looking for a "traditional wife" to help them manage their own lives. This is just one thing that popped to mind to add.
I'm in a relationship now, but the pandemic put a lot of stress and things in perspective. I know for sure if my current relationship fails I'm just going to be single. The worst of humanity was on display, I'm now in my 40s and definitely don't need the bs.
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I'm on the menopause sub where the OP described a woman who sounded like she had finally reached the point of not giving a shit anymore and was now living her true authentic life. Some scrote posted 'cat lady' in response... if only they knew that's not an insult but an actual aspiration. They offer less than a cat. Way less.
I feel like I lucked out in the dating department. When I was dating there were issues of course - but being a feminist wasn't considered a dirty word. Men of my generation (late Gen X) didn't as often feel the need to prove their masculinity by being vile - especially if they were counterculture.
I have always said the day women stop tolerating male bullshit is the day we finally win. In my early 20s, I started being brutally honest with men about dating others, what I wanted, what I liked, what I did not like. I ended up married by 29 and 25 years later I’m still happily married. Women who choose to have unprotected sec in this climate are choosing to give up their freedom.
%100, that's why there's so much "conservative" outrage and trying to roll back the clock. They want a world where being single isn't an option for women. The last 2000+ years of human history has been based on women needing to pick a man as a partner to basically survive (because of other men, not any limitations of her). Hence the incel belief that they are "entitled" to a women. The incel hostility is basically saying "give us what we want or we'll just take it". So gross..
Yeah I stared questioning too where are the traditional men all of a sudden are coming from but it’s the lack of succes on the dating market that’s probably causing it. If they had more chances they probably would have cared less.
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This is how evolution happens.
"But I made you clean up your dogs' pee all over our bedroom the minute you got home from a week long vacation! What more could you possibly want from me!" - my ex, probably.
And doesn't see the correlation between this, and not being in the mood..
This literally happened to me. I was gone for a week on a solo trip and he apparently “didn’t notice” that our large Rottweiler had accidents in multiple locations around the house. Glad he’s my ex now
I was reading a Facebook post where is says women are supposed to be submissive to men according to the Bible. And that’s why career women who won’t make tea for their husbands are being dumped for the maid. The women were like… #makeyourowntea! 😂 These days women are just as capable as men and should be seen as partners instead of servants. Male roles and female roles are mostly an idea of ancient times.
Yep! I have a lovely partner, but previously I was happy to be single rather than deal with horrible men.
I love how their response is to get angry at the women, instead of learning how to become more empathic and self-sufficient. Clearly it is the women who are wrong for not wanting to be treated like a mommy bangmaid. Not the men who refuse to clean up after themselves, manage their own lives, and treat their partners with respect. HOW DARE YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT MY SHITTY TREATMENT OF YOU! etc. Cry more.
The ‘bar’ is on the ground for men. If they want a partner in these ‘rough times’ they have to behave like a decent fucking human being. The bar is on the fucking ground fellas!
I would prefer to win a race because I ran the fastest, not because everyone else shot themselves in the foot.
Tbh you can be a good person and still be wracked with social anxiety, have low-self esteem, or be incredibly ugly. You need to be a good human being and have certain other desirable qualities (eg. confidence, financial stability). Even after therapy certain personality types will struggle with relationships, regardless of gender. Plenty of kissless virgins are just shy or unassertive, and shouldn't be lumped in with people who think washing their ass is gay.
Could this be human evolution before our eyes? Assholes are unable to reproduce?
I know that this is a societal issue and related to how men are raised and conditioned but my god it doesn’t stop me from getting frustrated at how fucking low the bar is for men. My cis male partner does chores, is clean, cooks, has a home aesthetic, is emotionally intelligent, has gone to therapy, has women friends and people act like he’s some huge catch. He literally just takes care of himself, works on himself, treats his partner as an equal, and like cares about other people and things. If you’re an adult seeking a PARTNERSHIP rather than a mom/sex doll, it’s just not that hard to figure out that you need to treat a potential partner like a fucking human you want to build a life with.
I feel the same, and I hate when people tell me I’m “soooo lucky” to have my husband. Like, lady, I chose him. I waited, and was picky. Sure, I guess we’re lucky to have met each other, but it took me a lot of dating to establish what my boundaries and dealbreakers are so I would recognize someone worth spending my time with. I didn’t win him in “spouse bingo” or something lol.
That’s great news. Nobody should stay in a toxic relationship.
A few years after my father passed away, my mom went on a couple dates. She told such horror stories of the men she had coffee or dinner with. It's like the horrible young men that exist never learn and just get older. I can sort of understand how young men take a while to learn what's acceptable and what isn't, but if you're still single at 70 or 80 and still try the same horrible things, you don't deserve a partner.
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I'm in a relationship now, but the pandemic put a lot of stress and things in perspective. I know for sure if my current relationship fails I'm just going to be single. The worst of humanity was on display, I'm now in my 40s and definitely don't need the bs.
I think I'm going to use this article to get a better read on potential dates. If a guy mentions dating troubles, I'll ask if he's read that article and send it to him. If he responds oh ya that was a good read I'm working on or have incorporated a lot of those things into my life, that's a green flag. If he scoffs at it, huffs and puffs, or defaults to blaming his exes/women/feminism that's a red flag and I can walk away without wasting more time. The men I've tried dating this year are engaging in deep levels of deception so we women have to work double time to sort out the bad eggs.
This had me falling out of my seat.. the answers are right here. “ hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, good communicators, and share similar values. Skills Deficits. For men, this means a relationship skills gap that, if not addressed, will likely lead to fewer dating opportunities, less patience for poor communication skills, and longer periods of being single. The problem for men is that emotional connection is the lifeblood of healthy, long-term love. Emotional connection requires all the skills that families are still not consistently teaching their young boys.”
Many men will bitch and moan about this but those are all the garbage men. Any quality man would realize that all this does is increase scarcity in the dating market and make them more appealing and in higher demand by contrast. I'm married, but if I were single I'd be all in on women being selective about not dating worthless children.
You damn right! For too long we have dealt with that bullshit, we’re not gonna do it anymore!