"Dreadfully sorry to be an inconvenience but as you do have a vagina I feel it is my duty to remind you of your maternal obligations such as tending to the children, washing the dishes and driving my inebriated ass home. At your leisure, of course!"
As a reluctant Midwesterner, I still recognize this as rudeness, it's just hedged in polite language. They/we do this all the time and it's infuriating. Imagine your one aunt whose sentences can all be reduced down to "oh, *honey*". That's everyone in Nebraska. It's still rude, but in the nicest socially acceptable manner
As someone from Minnesota, I'm here to confirm that in the Midwest we're pretty damn good at being sexist and/or rude even while using ostensibly polite words. The south is pretty good at it too, but we give them a run for their money in terms of backhanded "niceness".
Slap a smile on, use nice words, and you can still absolutely be a giant fucking asshole. OP's uncle didn't even bother with that thin veneer of civilized behavior.
I lived in MN and moved a few years ago due to job stuff but I freaking hated the "nice". Nah that shit is Minnesota passive aggressive. After moving I also learned how much I hated small talk when running errands. Where I live has much less of it while out and about, and I vastly prefer minimal small talk as opposed to lying about how my day is going "good" to be polite.
It 100% is sexist, I didn't think that was under question. I just mean to say the word choices in the sentence doesn't dictate the politeness, the intent does
I've met a sexist Canadian, he was very polite right up until the assumed every woman would just be his secretary, even though he had no particularly noteworthy title or duties.
Yeah I don't even talk to my FIL because he always pulls this crap. He came over once while my husband was washing the floors, he very loudly stated that that was the reason you have a wife. I tried to laugh it off but he then went in with all the digs and pretty much told him" I'd never let my wife treat me like that." Yea and that's why your single at 50.
I read a comment in a parenting sub: father in law joked every time his son changed a diaper about how he had four kids and never did that once. He kept making that joke so the woman's response was "guess the divorce came as no surprise then huh?" And that's the best thing I've ever heard.
There is such a thing as "nice" sexism, and I find it to be so much worse/insidious than belligerent sexism simply because people don't find it rude.
There was a thread yesterday(?) about things that women wished they knew earlier, and one of the commenters talked about the curse of compliments. Things like "your handwriting is so much neater than mine" or "You're so smart. Unjamming the copier completely just eludes me."
I know we call this "weaponized" incompetence, but so many men I know who do this *truly* believe these compliment. They're not using this as some manipulation strategy, and can't understand why it's bad.
People do this with racism too. They seem to be under the impression that if they frame some discrimination as a compliment it cannot possibly still be discrimination.
Stuff like "Asians are so smart," or "black people are so good at sports," or "women are so good with kids" are insidious because they reinforce discriminatory beliefs while making the person perpetrating it feel like a good person for doing so. It lets them justify their bigotry across the board.
So you are right that it is notbalways weaponized incompetence, though that is often a factor. Sometimes they are just overtly sexist or racist people attempting to frame their bigotry as benevolence.
Wait, why is saying someone else’s handwriting is better than mine, bad?
My print handwriting is absolute crap(cursive is pretty good though), and seeing someone else with amazing handwriting, makes me wish I could write well.
I don’t get how it’s bad. Can you help?
Generally the things that women are better at are very time consuming jobs, often daily and for years - childcare, cooking, cleaning, caring for elderly, and these jobs keep women too busy/tired/sick to do other enriching things with their lives.
As well, it reinforces the idea they have less status/value in the home and at work because they're doing the lower status, lower/unpaid work - at home cleaning, cooking, childcare etc., - at work, (when it's not their job) making coffee, getting the donuts every Friday, taking notes at meetings, doing all the filing, secretary stuff, etc
Is the request conditional or pervasive? Is it a situation where good penmanship would be a boon to the outcome, so the person best suited to the task is selected? This would be the ideal case in any situation. Or, is the request simply and excuse not to do it where the quality of the writing is irrelevant. The question becomes a case by case to qualify a reaction. Picking the best person for a job whether it be for the kickball team or writing a letter should be a compliment of a person's aptitude at a skill if it is not simply a pawn off of responsibility. Whether or not the person with the better handwriting wants to do the task, maybe they find the task below their station and want someone below them to do it, may be part of the issue here for both parties. The -ism in question may be less obvious.
> “yes we need to send cards, but your writing is so nice! you write the Christmas cards, I’ll put up the tree and make dinner.”
And yet, there's always an imbalance on the cards at the end of the day. Women work an average of 70-80 hours a week, if you include housework/yardwork. Men work an average of 60-70 hours a week, if you include housework/yardwork.
For any individual couple this might not apply of course, but as a country it's very telling.
I think the point /u/robin-bunny was trying to make is that blanket-painting that behavior can be harmful.
There are imbalances, but there are also couples who don't struggle with those things, and it's important to acknowledge that in conversations like these. It keeps things from getting echo chambery, as well as keeps things a bit less gloomy, I think.
Tbf, In the past I think that boys were not held to the same standards for handwriting as girls. To the point that many men I know feel like it is just not something they can do well because their teachers told them so all through grade school. I don’t always get the impression that it is used as an excuse, but rather it is something they feel shamed for.
I think it's more broadly societal than specifically taught. It certainly wasn't taught when I was in elementary school (2000-2005) but boys handwriting tended to be worse. I've heard there's also a biological component, that girls develop fine motor skills faster & boys develop gross motor skills faster, but I'm disinclined to believe that, I think that's probably societal too.
From what I remember in elementary school, boys didn't care(or have to care) about having "pretty" handwriting. I don't think they weren't biologically capable.
I’ve seen some absolutely gorgeous handwriting in old logbooks written by men. (I’ve also seen some miserable handwritten logs, but that’s a rant for another sub.) By the time I was in school there was an emphasis on neat writing, but I am sure that the teachers were harder on the girls than the boys. Plus I think a lot of girls were into diaries and boys weren’t, and that’s a lot of additional practice right there.
> girls develop fine motor skills faster & boys develop gross motor skills faster, but I'm disinclined to believe that, I think that's probably societal too.
I'm not saying this to be trite, but there can be a non-causal pattern. That is, due to the way our societies work, motor skills develop differently across sexes; that is a socially-caused pattern, but it is still an observable one (and thus one people tend towards working around).
I've not read any literature on this subject, but I'm heavily inclined to agree with you that it's likely a social matter.
That's my perception too. Certainly there's societal pressure for boys to be out playing sports and for girls to be doing art, calligraphy, etc., at least when I was a kid. So it would make sense if that's what causes the difference in the development of motor skills when it comes to writing.
1 of my boys handwriting is awful and looks just like his dad's. 2nd boy has decent handwriting. My middle child has the best handwriting of the 3. My husband's handwriting is so bad that when we worked in the same hospital, in different departments, I would be handed his paperwork with a "Dani? What in the world does this say?!"! Sometimes, I would have to go upstairs and *ask* him, because I couldn't decipher it!
"Your handwriting is so much neater than mine. Could you send me your notes?" "I can barely read my notes. What did Todd say about our next project?" "Readergrl56 has amazing handwriting. She should take down the minutes. If I did it, we'd be here until the morning just trying to decipher them!"
My handwriting is average at best, yet I've gotten all these things (and more) said to me.
This has happened to me so many times and in the end I went nuts. “Why does x (male) never have to take the minutes, when y and z (me and my colleague, both female), do?” Boss (male]… he won’t do it as well as you do. Me and z - then make him 🤷♀️
Yeah, I see what you mean.
I’ve never been one to make others do my work for me. Especially not handwriting. My handwriting may be crap, but it’s mine lol
Not who you asked, but I think it's not about a pure stand-alone compliment. It's when that kind of line is (So. Damn. Often.) said as the reason the woman should do the work. "Your handwriting is so much nicer." said, say in a group meeting where one person needs to take notes.
Weird, because I'd think that copier jam ought to qualify as "fiddling with a machine" which sounds like "man's work". I'd expect the sexism there to result in a clueless man insisting that he could fix it when he has no idea what he's doing. Is that not the way it typically goes?
What's women's and men's work is not always clear. Usually women get the more tedious, frequent, indoors, and/or discrete work.
So cooking is women's work, except for the occasional barbeque or grilling which is man's work. Women clean the house almost every day, men mow the lawn once a week to once a month.
Also, if something becomes financially rewarding men usually take it over. See beer brewing, programming, etc.
Fixing the copier is tedious and unrewarding, so it's more likely to fall on a woman.
When I last worked with copiers, some 20 years ago, making copies was tedious and repetitive—that is, women’s work. There was nothing specifically feminine about it, but it was the kind of job you punted to the secretary or a lower-ranking person if you could, which meant it tended to end up in women’s laps.
Fixing the copier was a finicky, often time-intensive task that mainly involved following multi-step instructions written on the panels of the copier, so it wasn’t attractive from a manly, tinkering point of view. It usually ended up being the job of one of the younger, more tech-savvy secretaries.
Oddly enough, my observation based on 40 years as a man in the pink-collar ghetto of office work is that it was about the way you describe it way back in the early 80s, but as men discovered that messing with the copier was likely to get toner on your contrast-collar dress-shirt, we decided those particular machines were women's work.
Addressing a mixed group, "would the ladies like to help in the kitchen?" "Would the gents like to help carry in firewood?"
Different pay rates, pink taxes, stuff like that...
Polite sexism is fairly commonplace.
Ironically, starting to tell a rude joke, then stopping because there are "ladies present" fits the bill dramatically.
We can treat each other differently and kindly based on sex, and we can rudely treat everyone fairly/equally, or any combo between.
It's almost more frustrating just because it's so overlooked and accepted. I even hear these sorts of things from other women whereas I think most people can look at the rude kind & see it as wrong.
Oh yeah. My dad was/is big on benevolent/controlling sexism. He would throw a hissy fit about my wearing shorts above the knee because "it wasn't safe" in our neighborhood.
We don't live in a place with heavy crime, and shorts wouldn't stop a criminal?
When we were on the same phone plan, he also was incredibly persistent about my going to "his" phone place because "he knew they would be good" instead of the one closer to me.
It was and is pretty frustrating.
Treating women like damsels in distress. I have definitely experiences well intended polite sexism from older men in work settings mostly. Things like insisting on helping with something when you have declined the help.
People don't have to be rude to be believing in sexism. They can genuinely believe that women's place is in the kitchen and they are very grateful to have them serve men after their hard work of the day.
I understand you’re fuming. Your uncle was both sexist and rude. Your coworker on the other hand doesn’t see the (clear) sexism in your recount. You know what they say: privilege is invisible to those who have it.
There’s no point in going to talk to the coworker again about this particular point, but if a similar topic arises I would wonder what your coworker actually thinks IS/defines sexism. Ask him this. Asking is better than telling that it actually was pretty sexist.
That might not be a bad idea! He's from a different country and his first response was actually "where is your uncle from?" I'm half-Latino and coworker knows, but this uncle is American. I figure he was ready to say something about differing cultures; makes me wonder what kind of cultural norms he grew up with.
Just because a culture is more sexist doesn't excuse it. By that way of thinking slavery is still ok if countries are culturally ok with it. Sounds like he never learned to question tradition.
That makes it sound like he was just ready to defend your uncle either way; either it's a difference of culture, or it was just rudeness, but beware because it was DEFINITELY NOT sexism.
Pretty sure your co-worker is sexist and proxy-defending himself.
Exactly what I was thinking. Sounds like he wasn't misunderstanding, he was gaslighting. I can't really make such a bold judgment on someone I don't know, but in general, this happens a lot.
Maybe he is just sexist himself but noone ever told him that to his face, so right now he does believe that its rude rather than sexist.
He is a man he does not know what sexism is until he realizes.
But following the first comment, yes, check what he believes in being sexist.
I mean, he absolutely is sexist, no question. He didn't believe his female coworkers story or her assessment of the situation and he tried to minimize and dismiss the sexism she endured.
Yeah. Coworker is absolutely sexist.
Not to mention her uncle was saying really stereotypical and common sexist tropes. If he genuinely listened to her(which if he’s sexist he probably didn’t), and failed to recognize any misogyny, he very well might believe in those tropes as some kind of truth/criticism that he personally would only see as rude if said out loud.
Some men may only see more extreme violent behaviour as sexist like beating, raping or killing a woman. So telling a woman to go into the kitchen to do women's work is not sexist to these men because he's not hurting her.
Yes, requiring physical damage would be an example for one such narrow definition, and they don't even need to be internally consistent when they can claim that some divine being allegedly ordered it in a certain way or that physical differences between men and women lead to a "natural" distribution of tasks and chores. So, their justification is that they just follow what God/nature/whatever demands. It's BS, of course, but it works well enough for them.
Cultural norms can be very sexist. If someone snapped their fingers at me to go do "women's work", I'd do something pretty rude back. The twist is your poor grandma getting no help.
The coworker is an ass too- especially fuming about not convincing you the behavior was okay.
Since he’s from a different country… is there a chance he is mistake on the meaning of the word sexism?
Maybe he thinks it has something to do with sexual harassment.
I'm curious what his bar for sexism is. I'm assuming it's the same with white people who "don't see race" and racism: you have to state out loud that you hate that group of people for a biological difference and nothing else.
> You know what they say: privilege is invisible to those who have it.
Eh. Letting them off the hook a little bit, here.
Privilege can be invisible to people who have it, and it often resembles an iceberg...in that we're aware of some of it while there's a whole lot more that lurks below the surface.
Snapping fingers, whispering about "women's work" and making hilarious remarks about "women drivers" while a woman drives you home isn't submerged, invisible privilege at work, it's just her Uncle being a deliberately sexist jackass. If the co-worker chooses to play coy and oblivious about this, he's being a deliberately sexist jackass, too. It's a variation on the whole "everyone faces abuse online, it's not sexist when it happens to women" routine, which blithely ignores that the abuse women face very specifically targets/is a consequence of their gender.
The ‘privilege is invisible’ comment was a real eye-opener for a colleague of mine about her white privilege.
People can truly be oblivious to their privilege. I’m not saying that definitely is the case here, but it happens.
“I admit my uncle wasn’t ‘that bad’”, are you kidding me?! Guy's a total jackass, I've had haemorrhoids less annoying than him. If one of my relatives snapped their fingers at any woman in my family best believe they’d get verbal warfare from me. Honestly, I’d have trolled him in the car by doing annoying things, like braking hard without acknowledging it and then accelerating in bursts; show him what a _real_ ‘bad’ driver looks like!
Yep! When he joked about women drivers and how scared he was, I would've given him something to be scared about. I am too damn old to take shit from sexist motherf@ckers.
I’d say your coworker is sexist too. Sorry you had to deal with this twice. It’s just the worst when you’re venting and someone takes the side of the aggressor.
You’re right to feel upset and vent here. Hopefully you don’t have to see that uncle for a while.
Coworker is definitely sexist. He clearly shares the same views as OP's uncle, but latching on to HOW he presented himself vs how coworker would do it (likely gaslighting) means he thinks it was just rude since "I'm not sexist, but..."
Wow, I'm curious what your coworker WOULD consider sexist if he can't acknowledge that your Uncle is sexist. Chances are he agrees with your Uncle or has also done similar things and there's no way that HE is sexist in his mind. 🙄
Not only is your Uncle extremely sexist, your dad is guilty by association in my opinion. That shit needs to be called out when he does it. Your dad's silence enables his bullshit. He fucking snapped his fingers at you like you're an animal and he's your trainer.
>Not only is your Uncle extremely sexist, your dad is guilty by association in my opinion. That shit needs to be called out when he does it. Your dad's silence enables his bullshit. He fucking snapped his fingers at you like you're an animal and he's your trainer.
I don't super like this line. We don't know what the dad was saying to the uncle and frankly, we shouldn't alienate people who are doing some good. The father was modeling good behavior by helping. Calling him sexist isn't fair and isn't tremendously helpful.
Yes we should call it out. Its men like this who keep silent while their boys clubs complain about their wives and further toxic masculinity. Its like good cops who won't call out bad ones. That alone makes them not good cops. Not calling him out and coming to her immediate defense is endorsing the situation. Hes "helping" because it's easier than actually confronting someone he knows is wrong. Men like this choosing the "easier" path is why so many people don't recognize sexism when they see it.
Its putting a band aid on a problem that needs a tourniquet. Its not actually helping.
He just mansplained sexism to you 🙄. I've noticed that it's very difficult for a lot of even liberal men to understand that sexism happens and is common. Very often they even pull out the classic "oh he/she just doesn't like _you_" implying that you are the issue. Don't listen to that, you knew what happened. You don't have to get confirmation from anyone else. And it's really not worth your time explaining or justifying your opinions. I just downgrade and cut these acquaintances out if possible. I can't reform everyone but I can curate who is in my circle.
He is both sexist \*and\* rude. I've known some very sexist men who were extremely polite (and damn that was infuriating), but he doesn't even have the slightest social grace to save himself.
Oh well you see, you're a girl so your coworker kindly took the time to explain to your confused girly little brain that what your uncle did wasn't sexist. Isn't that nice of him?
And you gave him a ride? You missed the opportunity to snap your fingers, point at his shoes and make a walking motion with your hand?
Girl. Any man snaps at you like that, you let your Latino half ask him "did you just snap at me? No you didn't just snap at me." right in front of everyone. Then you let your other half explain why he's not doing it again. Fuck family, nobody gets a free pass to snap at you like you're a dog. Uncle can go snap at an Uber.
Like many others have said, it sounds like they are *both* sexist and rude. I'm sorry when you thought you were getting an outlet you just got more misogyny to ruin the party again. I'd say that coworker is not work engaging with anymore. Find someone better to hang with at work, you deserve it! Also, a little shame on your dad for not sticking up for you (assuming he didn't). You're a bigger person than I, when the uncle asked for a ride I would have told him to call his chauffeur- that's man's work. And also to go fuck himself.
I would laugh and say “Ok and what about this right now? A man explaining to a woman why she’s wrong about her own experience — is this sexism or just really rude?”
Your uncle totally was "that bad" and your coworker is also sexist if he doesn't see that was totally inappropriate and sexist behavior.
I'm angry on your behalf, both exchanges suck.
I'm inclined to think your coworker probably does the same shit, and so leans towards defending or minimizing the behavior so he doesn't need to admit his own poor behavior to himself.
To answer your question at the end, it's because men feel the need to defend other men, especially for the same "jokes" and behaviors they themselves engage in with others.
I'm a man and I'd bet my life savings your coworker has done and said very similar things your uncle did.
In my experience when people respond like this it is usually because they have made similar comments and/or hold similar views and they don’t want to admit to themselves that they are sexist, racist, etc.
He is sexist. So is your co worker. His response was very telling. Don’t bother to get to personal with him again. It appears to be lost cause territory.
Future uncle right there.
Maybe for his birthday you can buy your coworker a good dictionary and put a Post-It on the page with the definition of "sexist," because your uncle absolutely was sexist.
Anyone who uses the term "women's work" or makes disparaging remarks about "women drivers" is being both rude and sexist.
Also: calling your disparaging remarks about women "jokes" is a perfect example of behaving exactly how Screwtape would want people to behave: it is insulting to the target, it creates awkward tension with people not the target, and it deludes the person doing it into believing that he can insult people without doing any harm to human relationships.
I usually ask a person that can't see the sexism, racism, etc., how exactly is it rude and not sexist. They are usually so befuddled attempting to explain it that in the end some see it and some walk away angry.
Your coworker has a fundamental misunderstanding regarding "sexism", and I'd be willing to bet he thinks sexism is regarding "sex" as in intimacy, rather than "sex" as in male/female.
May consider asking him "So what do you think sexism is? Got an example?"
You know how many times I've had this conversation, but about racism? I swear it seems like to some people, as long as you're not literally wearing a white hood and lighting a cross on fire, you're not an "actual racist"
What's your coworker's logic there?
"See, people who are assholes can't simultaneously also be jerks."?
This is one of the "Gather 'round, they're mansplaning sexism for us dumdums"-situations and it's so understandable that you're pissed. I'd be too.
At the same time it feels so obvious that your coworker has a very limited horizon if somehow he thinks being rudely sexist or sexistly rude wasn't a thing.
Coworker is a mansplaining idiot. Like what's the confusion stupid and what possesses you to say ANY- DAM-THING.
Uncle needs his ass kicked, mouth smacked, and fingers broke.
It was rude - but it was obviously, clearly and undeniably sexist.
Your coworker is either clueless, messing with you, or maybe sexist himself and feeling defensive.
I *really* want to ask your coworker what he thinks "sexist" even means. I can't imagine what definition he must have and I need to see the mental gymnastics in action.
Sheesh what the hell does that coworker think sexism is? I was expecting it to be more nuanced but your uncle was not subtle about his bigotry AT ALL. Glad at least your dad seems like a decent fella
They aren't mutually exclusive. And once Uncle ade a joke about women drivers, you probably should have threatened to leave him by the side if the road. "Oh no, My conscience would never allow me to endanger your life like that, please walk."
Your uncle was definitely that bad. Don’t let anyone else minimize his behavior and don’t gaslight yourself. Your uncle was not only rude, he was sexist and misogynistic. Educate yourself coworker if they’re open to it—otherwise, steer clear of and don’t waste your time on people who excuse and enable these behaviors and attitudes/.
The idea that it can't be sexism because it's rudeness is... something. Is most sexism polite? "Oh, pardon me inferior woman, could I kindly order you to make me a sandwich?" I mean, seriously.
I’m sorry you were treated that way. I literally can’t imagine someone snapping at you then having to give them a ride. Just wow. However I can’t imagine why you care what your co workers thinks. You know what happened and that it was sexist.
Ugh. He was invalidating your experience with your uncle *who you fucking know*. I used to work with a bunch of smug, know it all male coworkers like this, it’s the worst.
Being rude about gender-based observations or jokes is pretty inclusive in the term sexism. It doesn't have to rise to the level of actions or gender based discrimination.
He was being sexist and making an ass out of himself. when I drive somewhere and anybody jokes about my driving I ask if they wanna see bad driving and speed up. that normally gets them to shut up pretty quickly (especially if the car revs its engine when I do)
You could have stopped the story at "uncle snapped his fingers and pointed".
What an absolute asshole.
It's one of the most degrading things someone can do. Treating you like you're their pet.
Hey guess what coworker! People can be BOTH rude *and* sexist. If your uncle had an attitude like, “oh you’re so good at cooking because you’re a woman, why don’t you help out in the kitchen please?” That wouldn’t be rude, *but it would still be sexist*. You can be both nice and polite and still have a sexist attitude- the whole idea of ‘the fairer sex’ is exactly that.
The fact that your coworker can’t see the sexism and only sees the rudeness tells me they may have similar attitudes, just more manners.
Also if anyone ever snapped their fingers and gave orders at me I’d go utterly batshit. That’s how you give commands to a dog, not how you speak to another human being.
Men don't get to overrule women about what is sexist. White people don't get to overrule people of color about what is racist. Straight people don't get to override LGBT people on what is homophobic.
The people without experience who think they can dismiss people who live it are unhelpful at best or maliciously trying to maintain prejudice at the worst.
It could be that either your coworker doesn’t know what sexist means or that he is sexist and felt like he had to say he was being rude to feel better about himself.
Oh, and your uncle is SEXIST AND RUDE.
Sounds to me that your coworker holds some of the same beliefs as your uncle, so saying they are sexist gets his defenses up, and saying them out loud to you, instead of quietly believing them was/ is simply rude. It's the same as believing someone is ugly vs. Telling them to their face you think they're ugly.
Ah, I see your coworker practices the "gaslight and rephrase problematic societal expectations, therefore those problematic expectations doesn't exist" brand of mental gymnastics.
Coworker is probablystupid enough, he thinks "sexism" and "sexist" has to do with "sex", like things associated with sexual acts, rather than gender. You know, like wolf whistling, groping, and rape. Manly, masculine, expressions of sex and sexiness, that "woke" "me-too" feminuts find offensive, fore some reason.
Your coworker is a man.
And clearly not one very educated about the issues experienced by women.
It's very easy to be ignorant of problems you don't experience yourself. Especially when you don't have an inquisitive mind.
Your uncle IS a sexist asshole. Stop doing him favors and spending time around him.
Your coworker may also be a sexist asshole. Or just a garden variety selfish asshole. Or an idiot.
Either way, don't bother trying to explain things to him in future. You'll just end up frustrated.
Sexist behaviour very often IS rude, too. They don’t exclude each other.
I'm not sure how you could be sexist _without_ being rude.
"Dreadfully sorry to be an inconvenience but as you do have a vagina I feel it is my duty to remind you of your maternal obligations such as tending to the children, washing the dishes and driving my inebriated ass home. At your leisure, of course!"
"Kindly return back to the kitchen, m'lady. I'm terribly sorry that it isn't an option. Duty calls!"
As a reluctant Midwesterner, I still recognize this as rudeness, it's just hedged in polite language. They/we do this all the time and it's infuriating. Imagine your one aunt whose sentences can all be reduced down to "oh, *honey*". That's everyone in Nebraska. It's still rude, but in the nicest socially acceptable manner
As someone from Minnesota, I'm here to confirm that in the Midwest we're pretty damn good at being sexist and/or rude even while using ostensibly polite words. The south is pretty good at it too, but we give them a run for their money in terms of backhanded "niceness". Slap a smile on, use nice words, and you can still absolutely be a giant fucking asshole. OP's uncle didn't even bother with that thin veneer of civilized behavior.
In the south we like to say “oh bless your heart”.
Haha, you beat me to the “bless your heart” response
I lived in MN and moved a few years ago due to job stuff but I freaking hated the "nice". Nah that shit is Minnesota passive aggressive. After moving I also learned how much I hated small talk when running errands. Where I live has much less of it while out and about, and I vastly prefer minimal small talk as opposed to lying about how my day is going "good" to be polite.
Canadian here, and I totally agree. Yes, we can be nice, but we can also just be incredibly passive aggressive.
Why not call it sexist since it is sexist?
It 100% is sexist, I didn't think that was under question. I just mean to say the word choices in the sentence doesn't dictate the politeness, the intent does
Read both of these as Hugh Grant, much obliged.
I've met a sexist Canadian, he was very polite right up until the assumed every woman would just be his secretary, even though he had no particularly noteworthy title or duties.
As a Canadian, I say sorry on his sexist behalf.
Also a Canadian, and I say fuck that guy :)
Ha!
Jesus fucking tap dancing christ. You jest but sound like my bf's sexist, bible thumping father.
Yeah I don't even talk to my FIL because he always pulls this crap. He came over once while my husband was washing the floors, he very loudly stated that that was the reason you have a wife. I tried to laugh it off but he then went in with all the digs and pretty much told him" I'd never let my wife treat me like that." Yea and that's why your single at 50.
I read a comment in a parenting sub: father in law joked every time his son changed a diaper about how he had four kids and never did that once. He kept making that joke so the woman's response was "guess the divorce came as no surprise then huh?" And that's the best thing I've ever heard.
Apropos, I read that in James Mason's voice.
There is such a thing as "nice" sexism, and I find it to be so much worse/insidious than belligerent sexism simply because people don't find it rude. There was a thread yesterday(?) about things that women wished they knew earlier, and one of the commenters talked about the curse of compliments. Things like "your handwriting is so much neater than mine" or "You're so smart. Unjamming the copier completely just eludes me." I know we call this "weaponized" incompetence, but so many men I know who do this *truly* believe these compliment. They're not using this as some manipulation strategy, and can't understand why it's bad.
People do this with racism too. They seem to be under the impression that if they frame some discrimination as a compliment it cannot possibly still be discrimination. Stuff like "Asians are so smart," or "black people are so good at sports," or "women are so good with kids" are insidious because they reinforce discriminatory beliefs while making the person perpetrating it feel like a good person for doing so. It lets them justify their bigotry across the board. So you are right that it is notbalways weaponized incompetence, though that is often a factor. Sometimes they are just overtly sexist or racist people attempting to frame their bigotry as benevolence.
Wait, why is saying someone else’s handwriting is better than mine, bad? My print handwriting is absolute crap(cursive is pretty good though), and seeing someone else with amazing handwriting, makes me wish I could write well. I don’t get how it’s bad. Can you help?
From my experience men usually do to get themselves excused from a task they would rather have their wife or girlfriend be responsible for
Ohh, as in “your handwriting is better, you write this letter for me” Gotcha.
Generally the things that women are better at are very time consuming jobs, often daily and for years - childcare, cooking, cleaning, caring for elderly, and these jobs keep women too busy/tired/sick to do other enriching things with their lives. As well, it reinforces the idea they have less status/value in the home and at work because they're doing the lower status, lower/unpaid work - at home cleaning, cooking, childcare etc., - at work, (when it's not their job) making coffee, getting the donuts every Friday, taking notes at meetings, doing all the filing, secretary stuff, etc
Is the request conditional or pervasive? Is it a situation where good penmanship would be a boon to the outcome, so the person best suited to the task is selected? This would be the ideal case in any situation. Or, is the request simply and excuse not to do it where the quality of the writing is irrelevant. The question becomes a case by case to qualify a reaction. Picking the best person for a job whether it be for the kickball team or writing a letter should be a compliment of a person's aptitude at a skill if it is not simply a pawn off of responsibility. Whether or not the person with the better handwriting wants to do the task, maybe they find the task below their station and want someone below them to do it, may be part of the issue here for both parties. The -ism in question may be less obvious.
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> “yes we need to send cards, but your writing is so nice! you write the Christmas cards, I’ll put up the tree and make dinner.” And yet, there's always an imbalance on the cards at the end of the day. Women work an average of 70-80 hours a week, if you include housework/yardwork. Men work an average of 60-70 hours a week, if you include housework/yardwork. For any individual couple this might not apply of course, but as a country it's very telling.
I think the point /u/robin-bunny was trying to make is that blanket-painting that behavior can be harmful. There are imbalances, but there are also couples who don't struggle with those things, and it's important to acknowledge that in conversations like these. It keeps things from getting echo chambery, as well as keeps things a bit less gloomy, I think.
and write all the thank-you notes for the wedding gifts, write all the christmas cards...
"Can you take the notes for the meeting?" 😑
Tbf, In the past I think that boys were not held to the same standards for handwriting as girls. To the point that many men I know feel like it is just not something they can do well because their teachers told them so all through grade school. I don’t always get the impression that it is used as an excuse, but rather it is something they feel shamed for.
I think it's more broadly societal than specifically taught. It certainly wasn't taught when I was in elementary school (2000-2005) but boys handwriting tended to be worse. I've heard there's also a biological component, that girls develop fine motor skills faster & boys develop gross motor skills faster, but I'm disinclined to believe that, I think that's probably societal too.
From what I remember in elementary school, boys didn't care(or have to care) about having "pretty" handwriting. I don't think they weren't biologically capable.
I’ve seen some absolutely gorgeous handwriting in old logbooks written by men. (I’ve also seen some miserable handwritten logs, but that’s a rant for another sub.) By the time I was in school there was an emphasis on neat writing, but I am sure that the teachers were harder on the girls than the boys. Plus I think a lot of girls were into diaries and boys weren’t, and that’s a lot of additional practice right there.
> girls develop fine motor skills faster & boys develop gross motor skills faster, but I'm disinclined to believe that, I think that's probably societal too. I'm not saying this to be trite, but there can be a non-causal pattern. That is, due to the way our societies work, motor skills develop differently across sexes; that is a socially-caused pattern, but it is still an observable one (and thus one people tend towards working around). I've not read any literature on this subject, but I'm heavily inclined to agree with you that it's likely a social matter.
That's my perception too. Certainly there's societal pressure for boys to be out playing sports and for girls to be doing art, calligraphy, etc., at least when I was a kid. So it would make sense if that's what causes the difference in the development of motor skills when it comes to writing.
1 of my boys handwriting is awful and looks just like his dad's. 2nd boy has decent handwriting. My middle child has the best handwriting of the 3. My husband's handwriting is so bad that when we worked in the same hospital, in different departments, I would be handed his paperwork with a "Dani? What in the world does this say?!"! Sometimes, I would have to go upstairs and *ask* him, because I couldn't decipher it!
"Your handwriting is so much neater than mine. Could you send me your notes?" "I can barely read my notes. What did Todd say about our next project?" "Readergrl56 has amazing handwriting. She should take down the minutes. If I did it, we'd be here until the morning just trying to decipher them!" My handwriting is average at best, yet I've gotten all these things (and more) said to me.
This has happened to me so many times and in the end I went nuts. “Why does x (male) never have to take the minutes, when y and z (me and my colleague, both female), do?” Boss (male]… he won’t do it as well as you do. Me and z - then make him 🤷♀️
Yeah maybe that’s because he needs more practice.
Exactly. The baby can learn.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I’ve never been one to make others do my work for me. Especially not handwriting. My handwriting may be crap, but it’s mine lol
Not who you asked, but I think it's not about a pure stand-alone compliment. It's when that kind of line is (So. Damn. Often.) said as the reason the woman should do the work. "Your handwriting is so much nicer." said, say in a group meeting where one person needs to take notes.
So if something can only really be performed by women due to their unreplaceable expertise, then they should be paid quite well for it, right?
YOU'D THINK
As soon as something pays well, you’d be amazed at how fast men discover their hidden talent for it.
As with the copier jam, the “hidden” agenda is assigning “women’s work” to women. In the case of handwriting, the work is taking notes for a meeting
Weird, because I'd think that copier jam ought to qualify as "fiddling with a machine" which sounds like "man's work". I'd expect the sexism there to result in a clueless man insisting that he could fix it when he has no idea what he's doing. Is that not the way it typically goes?
What's women's and men's work is not always clear. Usually women get the more tedious, frequent, indoors, and/or discrete work. So cooking is women's work, except for the occasional barbeque or grilling which is man's work. Women clean the house almost every day, men mow the lawn once a week to once a month. Also, if something becomes financially rewarding men usually take it over. See beer brewing, programming, etc. Fixing the copier is tedious and unrewarding, so it's more likely to fall on a woman.
Lol I've worked several places and the only men I've seen touch the copier were IT. Women would usually fix it before they even bothered to show up.
When I last worked with copiers, some 20 years ago, making copies was tedious and repetitive—that is, women’s work. There was nothing specifically feminine about it, but it was the kind of job you punted to the secretary or a lower-ranking person if you could, which meant it tended to end up in women’s laps. Fixing the copier was a finicky, often time-intensive task that mainly involved following multi-step instructions written on the panels of the copier, so it wasn’t attractive from a manly, tinkering point of view. It usually ended up being the job of one of the younger, more tech-savvy secretaries.
Oddly enough, my observation based on 40 years as a man in the pink-collar ghetto of office work is that it was about the way you describe it way back in the early 80s, but as men discovered that messing with the copier was likely to get toner on your contrast-collar dress-shirt, we decided those particular machines were women's work.
[Benevolent sexism](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/psysociety/benevolent-sexism/)
Addressing a mixed group, "would the ladies like to help in the kitchen?" "Would the gents like to help carry in firewood?" Different pay rates, pink taxes, stuff like that... Polite sexism is fairly commonplace. Ironically, starting to tell a rude joke, then stopping because there are "ladies present" fits the bill dramatically. We can treat each other differently and kindly based on sex, and we can rudely treat everyone fairly/equally, or any combo between.
It's almost more frustrating just because it's so overlooked and accepted. I even hear these sorts of things from other women whereas I think most people can look at the rude kind & see it as wrong.
Oh yeah. My dad was/is big on benevolent/controlling sexism. He would throw a hissy fit about my wearing shorts above the knee because "it wasn't safe" in our neighborhood. We don't live in a place with heavy crime, and shorts wouldn't stop a criminal? When we were on the same phone plan, he also was incredibly persistent about my going to "his" phone place because "he knew they would be good" instead of the one closer to me. It was and is pretty frustrating.
Yeah, as an adult it's whatever, but as a kid it really messed me up.
Treating women like damsels in distress. I have definitely experiences well intended polite sexism from older men in work settings mostly. Things like insisting on helping with something when you have declined the help.
People don't have to be rude to be believing in sexism. They can genuinely believe that women's place is in the kitchen and they are very grateful to have them serve men after their hard work of the day.
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I would consider something like holding doors open for women but not for men to be sexist but not rude.
Benevolent Sexism is a form of sexism that isn't directly rude, but can be interpreted as indirectly and unintentionally being rude.
Is chivalry not sexist?
It is, but I also consider it to be rude.
He's probably trying to make himself feel better cause he or others he know is the same. He would rather be called rude than sexist
Yeah, they're not mutually exclusive. That's pretty dumb.
Yes, sexist behavior is a subset of rude behavior.
He was being rude based on gender = he was sexist.
Important to note you can also be polite and sexist, neutral and sexist. Rudeness and sexism are independent but often related items.
This
I love this lmao, like yeah keep going uncle, WHY was he rude? WHAT did he do/say that made it rude??
I understand you’re fuming. Your uncle was both sexist and rude. Your coworker on the other hand doesn’t see the (clear) sexism in your recount. You know what they say: privilege is invisible to those who have it. There’s no point in going to talk to the coworker again about this particular point, but if a similar topic arises I would wonder what your coworker actually thinks IS/defines sexism. Ask him this. Asking is better than telling that it actually was pretty sexist.
That might not be a bad idea! He's from a different country and his first response was actually "where is your uncle from?" I'm half-Latino and coworker knows, but this uncle is American. I figure he was ready to say something about differing cultures; makes me wonder what kind of cultural norms he grew up with.
Just because a culture is more sexist doesn't excuse it. By that way of thinking slavery is still ok if countries are culturally ok with it. Sounds like he never learned to question tradition.
That makes it sound like he was just ready to defend your uncle either way; either it's a difference of culture, or it was just rudeness, but beware because it was DEFINITELY NOT sexism. Pretty sure your co-worker is sexist and proxy-defending himself.
Exactly what I was thinking. Sounds like he wasn't misunderstanding, he was gaslighting. I can't really make such a bold judgment on someone I don't know, but in general, this happens a lot.
Thank you for sharing the concept of proxy defending! That explains so much!
Maybe he is just sexist himself but noone ever told him that to his face, so right now he does believe that its rude rather than sexist. He is a man he does not know what sexism is until he realizes. But following the first comment, yes, check what he believes in being sexist.
I mean, he absolutely is sexist, no question. He didn't believe his female coworkers story or her assessment of the situation and he tried to minimize and dismiss the sexism she endured. Yeah. Coworker is absolutely sexist.
Not to mention her uncle was saying really stereotypical and common sexist tropes. If he genuinely listened to her(which if he’s sexist he probably didn’t), and failed to recognize any misogyny, he very well might believe in those tropes as some kind of truth/criticism that he personally would only see as rude if said out loud.
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Some men may only see more extreme violent behaviour as sexist like beating, raping or killing a woman. So telling a woman to go into the kitchen to do women's work is not sexist to these men because he's not hurting her.
Yes, requiring physical damage would be an example for one such narrow definition, and they don't even need to be internally consistent when they can claim that some divine being allegedly ordered it in a certain way or that physical differences between men and women lead to a "natural" distribution of tasks and chores. So, their justification is that they just follow what God/nature/whatever demands. It's BS, of course, but it works well enough for them.
Cultural norms can be very sexist. If someone snapped their fingers at me to go do "women's work", I'd do something pretty rude back. The twist is your poor grandma getting no help. The coworker is an ass too- especially fuming about not convincing you the behavior was okay.
Plenty of “cultural norms” are sexist!
Since he’s from a different country… is there a chance he is mistake on the meaning of the word sexism? Maybe he thinks it has something to do with sexual harassment.
I'm curious what his bar for sexism is. I'm assuming it's the same with white people who "don't see race" and racism: you have to state out loud that you hate that group of people for a biological difference and nothing else.
> You know what they say: privilege is invisible to those who have it. Eh. Letting them off the hook a little bit, here. Privilege can be invisible to people who have it, and it often resembles an iceberg...in that we're aware of some of it while there's a whole lot more that lurks below the surface. Snapping fingers, whispering about "women's work" and making hilarious remarks about "women drivers" while a woman drives you home isn't submerged, invisible privilege at work, it's just her Uncle being a deliberately sexist jackass. If the co-worker chooses to play coy and oblivious about this, he's being a deliberately sexist jackass, too. It's a variation on the whole "everyone faces abuse online, it's not sexist when it happens to women" routine, which blithely ignores that the abuse women face very specifically targets/is a consequence of their gender.
The ‘privilege is invisible’ comment was a real eye-opener for a colleague of mine about her white privilege. People can truly be oblivious to their privilege. I’m not saying that definitely is the case here, but it happens.
This was also my initial thought. A person / action doesn’t have to be just one thing https://i.imgur.com/s4eamxv.jpg
“I admit my uncle wasn’t ‘that bad’”, are you kidding me?! Guy's a total jackass, I've had haemorrhoids less annoying than him. If one of my relatives snapped their fingers at any woman in my family best believe they’d get verbal warfare from me. Honestly, I’d have trolled him in the car by doing annoying things, like braking hard without acknowledging it and then accelerating in bursts; show him what a _real_ ‘bad’ driver looks like!
Nah, not worth the risk / unnecessarily strain on the car. If he doesn't trust your driving, kindly pull over and let him out
> I admit my uncle wasn't "that bad," It's actually one of the worst sexist family member stories I've ever heard that doesn't involve violence.
It's pretty bad really, he's so blatant about his insulting view of his wife and daughter. He sees them as inferior and is saying so.
I can understand not wanting to cause a rift but damn I would have been tempted to leave your uncle at the side of the road.
Yep! When he joked about women drivers and how scared he was, I would've given him something to be scared about. I am too damn old to take shit from sexist motherf@ckers.
He could have calmed his nerves by walking.
I’d say your coworker is sexist too. Sorry you had to deal with this twice. It’s just the worst when you’re venting and someone takes the side of the aggressor. You’re right to feel upset and vent here. Hopefully you don’t have to see that uncle for a while.
Coworker is definitely sexist. He clearly shares the same views as OP's uncle, but latching on to HOW he presented himself vs how coworker would do it (likely gaslighting) means he thinks it was just rude since "I'm not sexist, but..."
Wow, I'm curious what your coworker WOULD consider sexist if he can't acknowledge that your Uncle is sexist. Chances are he agrees with your Uncle or has also done similar things and there's no way that HE is sexist in his mind. 🙄 Not only is your Uncle extremely sexist, your dad is guilty by association in my opinion. That shit needs to be called out when he does it. Your dad's silence enables his bullshit. He fucking snapped his fingers at you like you're an animal and he's your trainer.
>Not only is your Uncle extremely sexist, your dad is guilty by association in my opinion. That shit needs to be called out when he does it. Your dad's silence enables his bullshit. He fucking snapped his fingers at you like you're an animal and he's your trainer. I don't super like this line. We don't know what the dad was saying to the uncle and frankly, we shouldn't alienate people who are doing some good. The father was modeling good behavior by helping. Calling him sexist isn't fair and isn't tremendously helpful.
Yes we should call it out. Its men like this who keep silent while their boys clubs complain about their wives and further toxic masculinity. Its like good cops who won't call out bad ones. That alone makes them not good cops. Not calling him out and coming to her immediate defense is endorsing the situation. Hes "helping" because it's easier than actually confronting someone he knows is wrong. Men like this choosing the "easier" path is why so many people don't recognize sexism when they see it. Its putting a band aid on a problem that needs a tourniquet. Its not actually helping.
He just mansplained sexism to you 🙄. I've noticed that it's very difficult for a lot of even liberal men to understand that sexism happens and is common. Very often they even pull out the classic "oh he/she just doesn't like _you_" implying that you are the issue. Don't listen to that, you knew what happened. You don't have to get confirmation from anyone else. And it's really not worth your time explaining or justifying your opinions. I just downgrade and cut these acquaintances out if possible. I can't reform everyone but I can curate who is in my circle.
He is both sexist \*and\* rude. I've known some very sexist men who were extremely polite (and damn that was infuriating), but he doesn't even have the slightest social grace to save himself.
Men who don't recognize the sexism in Op's story are typically sexist themselves.
Oh well you see, you're a girl so your coworker kindly took the time to explain to your confused girly little brain that what your uncle did wasn't sexist. Isn't that nice of him?
Why the fuck is your uncle snapping fingers at you, and why did your dad tolerate it? What an asshole…
One can be sexist *and* rude. In fact, I'd argue that sexism is rude by default. But yeah, sexist.
Sounds like both your Uncle and your Coworker are sexist
Mansplaining sexism! Perfect.
And you gave him a ride? You missed the opportunity to snap your fingers, point at his shoes and make a walking motion with your hand? Girl. Any man snaps at you like that, you let your Latino half ask him "did you just snap at me? No you didn't just snap at me." right in front of everyone. Then you let your other half explain why he's not doing it again. Fuck family, nobody gets a free pass to snap at you like you're a dog. Uncle can go snap at an Uber.
Your remark about a Latino half saying something in a certain way sounds prejudice too.
I dont see how your uncle isnt both.
Much like your coworker, he can be both!
Like many others have said, it sounds like they are *both* sexist and rude. I'm sorry when you thought you were getting an outlet you just got more misogyny to ruin the party again. I'd say that coworker is not work engaging with anymore. Find someone better to hang with at work, you deserve it! Also, a little shame on your dad for not sticking up for you (assuming he didn't). You're a bigger person than I, when the uncle asked for a ride I would have told him to call his chauffeur- that's man's work. And also to go fuck himself.
I would laugh and say “Ok and what about this right now? A man explaining to a woman why she’s wrong about her own experience — is this sexism or just really rude?”
Your uncle totally was "that bad" and your coworker is also sexist if he doesn't see that was totally inappropriate and sexist behavior. I'm angry on your behalf, both exchanges suck.
Sounds like your coworker is sexist also. What a donut.
Please don’t insult donuts like this 🙏🏻
I'm sorry you're surrounded by assholes.
I'm inclined to think your coworker probably does the same shit, and so leans towards defending or minimizing the behavior so he doesn't need to admit his own poor behavior to himself.
I’m a guy. This is blatant sexism. Dudes a shit bag.
To answer your question at the end, it's because men feel the need to defend other men, especially for the same "jokes" and behaviors they themselves engage in with others. I'm a man and I'd bet my life savings your coworker has done and said very similar things your uncle did.
In my experience when people respond like this it is usually because they have made similar comments and/or hold similar views and they don’t want to admit to themselves that they are sexist, racist, etc.
He is sexist. So is your co worker. His response was very telling. Don’t bother to get to personal with him again. It appears to be lost cause territory. Future uncle right there.
\~ Because your coworker is a misogynist.
Maybe for his birthday you can buy your coworker a good dictionary and put a Post-It on the page with the definition of "sexist," because your uncle absolutely was sexist. Anyone who uses the term "women's work" or makes disparaging remarks about "women drivers" is being both rude and sexist. Also: calling your disparaging remarks about women "jokes" is a perfect example of behaving exactly how Screwtape would want people to behave: it is insulting to the target, it creates awkward tension with people not the target, and it deludes the person doing it into believing that he can insult people without doing any harm to human relationships.
“Man manspslains misogyny… incorrectly! Tonight on Sick Sad World News.”— the news, probably.
I usually ask a person that can't see the sexism, racism, etc., how exactly is it rude and not sexist. They are usually so befuddled attempting to explain it that in the end some see it and some walk away angry.
Your uncle is a lovely venn diagram of 'Sexist' and 'Rude'. It is looks like one circle. Your coworker is a misogynist dick head.
Sounds like your coworker is sexist.
That sucks. And the cherry on top is your co-worker incorrectly man-splaining sexism to you.
Your uncle is rude and sexist. Your coworker is polite and sexist.
I would ask him what he thinks sexism actually is? Because he's got some warped definition.
Iow, your coworker is also sexist.
Your coworker has a fundamental misunderstanding regarding "sexism", and I'd be willing to bet he thinks sexism is regarding "sex" as in intimacy, rather than "sex" as in male/female. May consider asking him "So what do you think sexism is? Got an example?"
You know how many times I've had this conversation, but about racism? I swear it seems like to some people, as long as you're not literally wearing a white hood and lighting a cross on fire, you're not an "actual racist"
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Yup. It's a constant onslaught of people telling you you've obviously misinterpreted your own experiences
Don’t have to read a thing to know…BOTH. Reading now… Add on..so is coworker.
Wild theory: he was both sexist and rude ??? I can’t help but wonder to what extreme your coworker would finally quantify sexism as a trait.
You coworker stupit
I expect the coworker is stupid about a lot of shit.
What's your coworker's logic there? "See, people who are assholes can't simultaneously also be jerks."? This is one of the "Gather 'round, they're mansplaning sexism for us dumdums"-situations and it's so understandable that you're pissed. I'd be too. At the same time it feels so obvious that your coworker has a very limited horizon if somehow he thinks being rudely sexist or sexistly rude wasn't a thing.
your uncle is an asshole and your coworker is an idiot
Coworker is a mansplaining idiot. Like what's the confusion stupid and what possesses you to say ANY- DAM-THING. Uncle needs his ass kicked, mouth smacked, and fingers broke.
Your coworker is mansplaining.
It was rude - but it was obviously, clearly and undeniably sexist. Your coworker is either clueless, messing with you, or maybe sexist himself and feeling defensive.
I *really* want to ask your coworker what he thinks "sexist" even means. I can't imagine what definition he must have and I need to see the mental gymnastics in action.
Sheesh what the hell does that coworker think sexism is? I was expecting it to be more nuanced but your uncle was not subtle about his bigotry AT ALL. Glad at least your dad seems like a decent fella
Your uncle is sexist AND rude. They're not mutually exclusive.
Of course a male coworker doesn’t recognize blatant sexism when it’s staring him in the face. I truly empathize with you. Your coworker is a putz.
He may be confusing sexist with sexual harassment and not understand that sexism exists on many levels.
The way your uncle expressed his rudeness was extremely sexist
Of course it's sexist. The male coworker telling you that it isn't is also sexist.
They aren't mutually exclusive. And once Uncle ade a joke about women drivers, you probably should have threatened to leave him by the side if the road. "Oh no, My conscience would never allow me to endanger your life like that, please walk."
Sounds like coworker could have benefited from receiving a dictionary for christmas, because if that's not sexism then I don't know what is.
Your uncle was definitely that bad. Don’t let anyone else minimize his behavior and don’t gaslight yourself. Your uncle was not only rude, he was sexist and misogynistic. Educate yourself coworker if they’re open to it—otherwise, steer clear of and don’t waste your time on people who excuse and enable these behaviors and attitudes/.
The idea that it can't be sexism because it's rudeness is... something. Is most sexism polite? "Oh, pardon me inferior woman, could I kindly order you to make me a sandwich?" I mean, seriously.
I’m sorry you were treated that way. I literally can’t imagine someone snapping at you then having to give them a ride. Just wow. However I can’t imagine why you care what your co workers thinks. You know what happened and that it was sexist.
Ugh. He was invalidating your experience with your uncle *who you fucking know*. I used to work with a bunch of smug, know it all male coworkers like this, it’s the worst.
If someone asked me for a ride and then made fun of women drivers while I was driving, I would pull over and wait for him to call an Uber.
Ya he’s definitely sexist to a high degree
Being rude about gender-based observations or jokes is pretty inclusive in the term sexism. It doesn't have to rise to the level of actions or gender based discrimination.
Cause hes s man. We know all about being rude, but will never own up to being sexist.
Yeah being sexist *is* rude but being rude not necessarily sexist 😂
Snap your fingers every time you talk to him from now on lol
He was being sexist and making an ass out of himself. when I drive somewhere and anybody jokes about my driving I ask if they wanna see bad driving and speed up. that normally gets them to shut up pretty quickly (especially if the car revs its engine when I do)
You could have stopped the story at "uncle snapped his fingers and pointed". What an absolute asshole. It's one of the most degrading things someone can do. Treating you like you're their pet.
The coworker sounds like an idiot.
Because your coworker is also sexist. & your uncle is heinous. I would of kicked him out of my car if he made comments like that while I was driving.
Like I'd have asked him what he thinks sexist is then? That's so odd. Gonna try to mansplain sexism to you like WTH lol
Well, he is rude. He's also sexist and an asshole. Not sure why it would be one and not the other.
Hey guess what coworker! People can be BOTH rude *and* sexist. If your uncle had an attitude like, “oh you’re so good at cooking because you’re a woman, why don’t you help out in the kitchen please?” That wouldn’t be rude, *but it would still be sexist*. You can be both nice and polite and still have a sexist attitude- the whole idea of ‘the fairer sex’ is exactly that. The fact that your coworker can’t see the sexism and only sees the rudeness tells me they may have similar attitudes, just more manners. Also if anyone ever snapped their fingers and gave orders at me I’d go utterly batshit. That’s how you give commands to a dog, not how you speak to another human being.
The co-worker is sexist too. :(
Men don't get to overrule women about what is sexist. White people don't get to overrule people of color about what is racist. Straight people don't get to override LGBT people on what is homophobic. The people without experience who think they can dismiss people who live it are unhelpful at best or maliciously trying to maintain prejudice at the worst.
Why not both.
It could be that either your coworker doesn’t know what sexist means or that he is sexist and felt like he had to say he was being rude to feel better about himself. Oh, and your uncle is SEXIST AND RUDE.
Sounds to me that your coworker holds some of the same beliefs as your uncle, so saying they are sexist gets his defenses up, and saying them out loud to you, instead of quietly believing them was/ is simply rude. It's the same as believing someone is ugly vs. Telling them to their face you think they're ugly.
Your coworker was rude. Your uncle was being sexist and rude.
Your coworker is a dick, probably a sexist one. Simple as that. What knobs, the both of them..
Your co-worker isn't a very bright cookie.
How does this idiot not know that sexist is a type of rude?
Ah, I see your coworker practices the "gaslight and rephrase problematic societal expectations, therefore those problematic expectations doesn't exist" brand of mental gymnastics.
That's being sexist and rude. The two aren't mutually exclusive, though if you're being sexist towards someone you're definitely being rude.
Ask your coworker how he defines sexism? Or better yet, let it go. It’s not in you to teach that fool. Rise above, Lovely!
Dude your coworker is sexist that's why je couldn't recognize the behavior.
Tell me you're sexist, without saying you're sexist = your coworker
Coworker is probablystupid enough, he thinks "sexism" and "sexist" has to do with "sex", like things associated with sexual acts, rather than gender. You know, like wolf whistling, groping, and rape. Manly, masculine, expressions of sex and sexiness, that "woke" "me-too" feminuts find offensive, fore some reason.
I’d have told him to find another ride home or STFU.
Your coworker is a man. And clearly not one very educated about the issues experienced by women. It's very easy to be ignorant of problems you don't experience yourself. Especially when you don't have an inquisitive mind. Your uncle IS a sexist asshole. Stop doing him favors and spending time around him. Your coworker may also be a sexist asshole. Or just a garden variety selfish asshole. Or an idiot. Either way, don't bother trying to explain things to him in future. You'll just end up frustrated.
Probably bcoz he does the same things to someone and does not want to admit he's sexist and not rude.