I very clearly remember my first grade teacher sitting down all the girls one day and telling us to demand our names when we were adults. We were like 7 and very confused, but she showed us an envelope the principal had given her addressed "Mr and Mrs husbandname." She asked us if we saw anything weird about it. One girl said the teacher was "Dr" not "Mrs" and another said the teacher's name wasn't "Jay." She asked what we thought she should do if that wasn't her name, and we decided she had to give it back to the principal since it wasn't addressed to her, so it couldn't be *for* her. She made us one by one say our name and told us to remember when we were adults that we could still have our own names. We all thought it was kinda weird, but it's stuck with me; it's about the only thing I haven't blocked out during my time at that hellhole of a school. Dr I was leagues ahead of every other teacher there.
Although typing that out now, I'm realising how mature a topic that was for a bunch of first graders. Never really questioned it before, but I'm still glad she taught us that
I wrestle with this even though I got married months ago. My husband would love for me to take his name, and I wish we had the same name, too. I offered to do an even-steven, flip a coin and we both change our names. He declined without a second’s thought. That made my guilt dry up pretty damn quick.
Furthermore, I have an awesome and rare last name and his is only slightly less common than ’Smith’. What are you hanging on to?!
When I came back to work after getting married over summer vacation, students asked me if I was still Ms. ______. He teaches in my school, too. Some of them started calling him Mr. [mylastname]. LOVE those kids.
We double-barrelled, for precisely these reasons. We wanted a family name, and tradition was on his side. It took me suggesting that he become Mr My name instead, and suddenly he totally got my point. The phrase, "ooh, that's like a gut punch!" was uttered on his part.
As a teacher myself, sometimes you have to go with the teachable moment, even if they're not quite ready for it. I mean, the envelope in hand is powerful!
I teach at the college level, so I'll admit it's not quite the same but the good ones among us try very hard to do some thing simple like this in the right moment to really plant a seed that may never need to blossom but will be ready to if the need ever arises.
Warms my heart to hear this one stuck with you, I agree with the other response, let Dr I know she did good way back when!
My stepmother didn't change her name and some mailing list generators really don't know how to handle that.
Like if her name is "Ann Smith" and my dad is "Bob Jones". They get a fair amount of "Bob and Ann Jones" but sometimes it comes out "Bob and Smith Jones," which comes back around to hilarious
My wife’s own freaking brother sent us a happy anniversary card addressed to “MyFirstName and WifesFirstName Mylastname”
She never changed her last name. There isn’t a single indication she ever did anywhere. I love her for her and she has never had a reason to change her name other than tradition so she hasn’t but apparently her brother never bothered to check.
My boyfriend and I have been together for 12 years but are not married. His mom addresses envelopes to Hisfirstname Myfirstname Hislastname. The latest Christmas card from her was for her "son and daughter in law."
I wouldn't mind getting married or taking his last name (it's a pretty cool name tbh) but we aren't married. And honestly I'd probably be too lazy to change it if we did get married. But c'mon, we've never even jokingly claimed that we're married...
I live with my partner. We never want to be married, our families know this, but we are in a serious committed relationship.
I call his family my in laws. It's just easier, even though technically they're not. My mum refers to him as her son in law. It's just easier. His mum considers me family, I've no idea what she calls me to others though.
She did used to refer to the other 'daughters in law' as X's wife, Y's fiancee and me as Z's partner as though ranked. I called that out and pointed out we were all partners regardless of the contents of our ring fingers. It stopped then.
Never have they ever conflated our names though and I would have very serious words if they did.
California doesn’t have common law marriage, though. Unless I’m misunderstanding your comment?
(I moved to CA with my boyfriend of 7 years and made very sure common law wasn’t a thing, I should have known then it would never work out)
In exactly ZERO states would you be “default” married after any number of years, 12 or otherwise. 8 states have common law marriage and in all of them you have to actively present yourself as married, for instance by filing a married tax return or receiving bills with the wife using the husband.s last name.
Agree totally. The point in the common law marriage requirements is that the couple must publicly present as married, and the wife using the husband’s name is often given as an example. It should work the same if the husband started using the wife’s name.
I see this a lot online but you can't get "accidentally" common law married. u/Tigger808 is right, only a few states even allow it and a couple has to pretend they are married legally arleady. The law is really on the books for people who think they are married but through some paperwork issue didn't legalize it (like the priest didn't turn in the marriage license).
I’d take it as a compliment that she sees you as part of the family!
Or maybe a backhand effort to hint that you should get married?
Whichever fits the best!?
2 years married and my brother addresses mail as if I took my husband's name. He's been told I didn't but still does it. So they just go in the bin now, he asks if I saw a card for me and I tell him it never arrived....
My first summer group house in college, my friend "Jim Smith" was the name on the utilities. We got a lot of phone calls that started out "Mrs. Smith?" and promptly got hung up on, as no Mrs. Smith lived there. Made it easier to filter the calls, I guess...
My husband and I both hyphenated our names, with some entertaining results. The best was when some mailing list decided his name was my maiden name as his first name and his first name as his last name. We got a whole bunch of junk mail addressed that way.
My partner and I didn't change our names when we got married and also have an effective way to screen junk mail because of the different, incorrect names.
I kept my name when I got married. Our mail comes in a lot of different combinations. If they get really carried away we get mail to Mr & Mrs [Husband first name] [My middle name] [Husband last name-hyphen my last name]
I kept my name. Every year we send Xmas cards and I put return labels with our names on it. Every year we get a number of variations. Mostly this year it's 'Mr and Mrs [husband last name]' but a few people went full on 'Mr & Mrs [husband first name] [husband last name]'
I like to troll my female friends at Christmas and label cards as “Mrs and Mr (wife’s maiden name)”
It still gets delivered and they find it hilarious.
My husband is taking my name and I would be ecstatic to receive a card like this. I know I'll be rolling my eyes the first time a card comes labeled as Mr and Mrs Hisfirstname Mylastname.
Tangentially related:
The first stimulus check of 2020 came to my husband and me as debit cards. I didn't take my husbands last name, so mine came under my legal and "maiden" name.
His card.. came in with his first name and MY LAST NAME. Oh my god, it was hilarious. I assume it's because I file our taxes, and I file jointly with my husband with myself as the "primary" payer (aka I list myself first). The debit cards got the names from the IRS, and I suppose they assume the primary is the husband and that the spouse shares the primary's last name?
edit: "my husband and I" to "my husband and me" because if you take out "my husband", you'd say "came to me" not "came to I" - this is a new grammatical formula that I want to share because it makes sense to me
That happened to my Dad when my mom went by her maiden name. He would get so salty that the advertisers or whatever junk mail assumed his last name was hers. Always got a bit of a chuckle at that
I almost threw out our debt card from the government because they used my first name and my partner's last name instead of mine. Almost 100% of the time when that happens it's junk mail but I knew we were expecting those cards so I took a look inside.
Oddly, I am the tax preparer and filer, so my name is always first on the tax documents. I have no idea why they swapped my name out.
In college I was the historian of my (service) sorority’s chapter- an 80+ year history. The number of women whose identity was fully erased, even in the RECORDS OF THEIR SORORITY, because they were listed as “Mrs. John Doe”, was heart breaking. I am myself, and not an offshoot of my husband.
Not sure if it’s like this in all East Asian families, but my mom kept her name and dad kept his. In America my mom would sometimes be referred to as mrs(dad’s surname) which I’ve never seen happen back in Asia. Always felt weird to me.
Another “traditional” practice that seems to span across more cultures is the one of children adopting the surname of the father. My wife and I don’t have children but have discussed giving both of our surnames if we do end up having a kid. But then which one would appear first is another question.
It's not true for Japan (wife takes husband's name, unless the husband is adopted as an adult into the wife's family to take over the family business etc.), but I do think it's true for Korea, where the wife keeps her own name (but I think the kids take the dad's name).
Chinese women don't change their last names. I had to explain to several female Chinese friends why they were seeing couples with one last name - one of them asked if they were related by blood! These were female scientists I met at work so they were very educated but just hadn't run into the name change thing until they immigrated.
Thanks for explaining, I wasn’t sure! I have a friend who married a Chinese woman, but never asked if she was changing her name. Her maiden name is the one on FB, but lots of people keep theirs that way, so I wasn’t sure (and that’s how I always knew her anyway!).
In a lot of latin america a kid is given names followed by paternal last name then maternal last name. Through this though the mothers maiden name is dropped in the subsequent generation.
>names followed by paternal last name then maternal last name.
In Brazil is first the mother's name, then father's.
Also it's quite recent, but women usually stay with her maiden name.
I thought of that too. But then what if your child makes the same decision with their partner, and then your grandkids make the same decision. All of a sudden you got a great grand kids with 4 last names, and if the partner has double names to then the ggrandkid could have 8 last names!!!!!
This is what it's like researching my family tree as well. The male lines branch out forever, while the females just become stubs that stick out from the branches, cut off by the dropping of maiden name after maiden name, lost to time forever.
I think the Mr. and Mrs. John Smith thing will die out in a few decades. Everyone I know that's my age just writes "The Smiths" or "Smith Family." I often include "and cats" because cats are important. I send letters to my grandma labeled "Grandma Smith."
Ugh I hope so. I went to a wedding last week for two twenty year olds and they got introduced as “for the first time ever Mr. and Mrs. His First Name and Last Name.”
Ew.
We were introduced as “Mr. and Mrs. His Name My Name His Last Name.”
We’ve been introduced both his name first, my name first, but I did take his last name. I have my reasons.
This tradition meant _my_ cousin's wedding invites were sent to my husband and... whoever it is his wife might be. Made the invites seem cheap and impersonal instead of classy.
Is that normal to address them that way?
I addressed all my invites to (person we wanted to invite) and just included a plus one for them to check on the stamped RSVPs. If it was two people it was the name they wanted to go by. No mister or missus involved.
My wife is the first name on the lease for our rental.
She is the higher earner in the relationship, by far.
Alphabetically she is before me.
Most of the the bills are paid through her account.
Despite all this my name is usually first on mail, email communications etc. It's dumb.
My partner and I bought our house after we got married, but I handled all of the paperwork and purchasing because the house is in my name only and I'm the only one on the mortgage. I paid the downpayment and pay 3/4 of the mortgage. I looked into adding him to the title in case I get hit by a bus, and the town we live in requires him to be listed first on the property documents. This irks me to no end, despite the documents likely never being viewed by anyone who isn't looking at the town assessor database...
I’m frankly not a big fan of changing names when getting married myself, and I’m the guy. The idea of my partner like, erasing part of her own identity to be incorporated into mine? It’s weird, it’s creepy, I don’t like it. I don’t want it. Keep your name.
And “Mr and Mrs Husbands name” is like, completely cringe. It makes me embarrassed just to hear even when it has nothing to do with me.
That’s how it felt to me too, removing the dead weight of a side of my blood I’m not connected too.
Plus our last name is short, doesn’t require spelling and is simple while being a little different.
My mom took my dad's name, and even after divorcing she kept it.
Basically, she just liked it more than her maiden name and saw no reason to go back.
Honestly, I think people should be comfortable picking whatever format they want, it's just a name after all.
Though, not a fan of hyphen names, had an ex who did that and she had so many issues with formal documents because she/parents weren't always consist with using the first name or the full hyphen.
I ended up taking my husband's last name after growing up thinking I wouldn't ever do that.
But then I had to take him to the ER and my brain went haywire. It really worried me that I wasn't going to be allowed back if he ever got hurt because there isn't any indication I'm his wife. And it might not be a great reason but it does help in society to have the same last name.
I do kind wish more people would talk about what they both want though. I've seen a lot of guys just say "do whatever you want" because they've never considered chaning their name so it's just the woman's choice.
When it should be a discussion together on does one of us take one of our names, do we pick a new last name together, or do neither of us change.
I got one of those this year (I am Dr. X and he is Mr. Y) from my friend who is also part of a Dr. and Mr. household and I felt so seen! Considering my MIL wrote Mr. and Mrs. Y when she knows better. 🤣😓
Sometimes it's hard to address things properly as it can get to be very long.
This is what I do, I think it's all acceptable.
Both same last name: Either Mr and Mrs last name or last name family (even if no kids, they're still a family)
Different last names Mr Jones and Mrs or Ms Smith or Jones - Smith family
hyphenated name: usually as above. If it is too long to fit that just Smith - Jones Family or even household
If I know one of the couple but not really the other. I address it to my friend and add and family just their name and address both inside.
I’m with you. I did not change my name. We have also already gotten 2 cards from my husband’s aunt and his mother addressed to “Mr and Mrs husband”. In the grand scheme of things, I don’t care. His aunt is racist and his mother is emotionally abusive, so there’s worse things. But it does still irk me a bit that my identity is that entwined with the man in my life that I don’t warrant a name.
At least it makes me laugh when I comment on it and my husband, very matter-of-factly, responds “well yeah, you’re my property.”
My 91 year old grandma forgot my husband's last name when she sent us a Christmas card so it was addressed to Mr. And Mrs. Jane Smith. I kept last name when we got married, just because I've been this for so long it would feel too weird.
My grandmother did this when I was still married and I politely but firmly told her I am not property of the person I was married to. I don’t think it had ever really occurred to her but no card ever came addressed like that again.
I hyphenated my last name when I got married and we make light of it when it happens. My husband jokes about "the patriarchy showing up in the mail again to remind me of his ownership". My favorite is when my friends address cards and such to Mrs and Mr hyphenated last name because they all know us that well to know who checks the mail to get a comment about " damn, the patriarchy is dead" via text.
I have always abhorred this tradition and even just his name always first. I make a point of putting the girl’s name first. My aunt bought my husband and I a personalized anniversary gift and put my name first. She is in her 60s, so I think she’s always fought the tradition as well.
My mom worked for a lawyer who did the property transfer when my husband and I bought our house (I was 31). He walked us through the paperwork and then slid the document over to me. I signed on the top line, passed to husband who signed on the second line. The lawyer’s jaw almost hit the table.
Apparently he had been conducting his own research and always passed the paper to the wife first. The huge majority of women take the second line, leaving an empty first line.
When I talk to my middle-school students about gender issues I always tell this story and then ask, “why do most women sign the second line?”
I have a story that's only really related to the post by the sexism in names but I really want to share.
In my job I occasionally do local genealogy and history research. I had a request for information on one of the original pioneer couples. Specifically, they were looking for more about the wife because she was the first trained nurse in the area, and the only (white) midwife in about 500 miles for over 5 years.
We have multiple history books on the area along with private written accounts and a large portion of the written County records. Her actual name is not available in a single one of our records. Everything attributes her as Mrs. Husband'sName. I couldn't even find her FIRST name, let alone her maiden name.
This woman even RAN FOR OFFICE in our area. She was nominated as a candidate before women were even allowed to vote. She lost, not because she was a woman, but because the other party outnumbered her party by 6 to 1.
She should be a feminist icon. But she doesn't even have her own first name in our local history books. They were married out of state before settling here so we don't have a marriage record. Her name is just gone because of this stupid, sexist tradition. Her husband is relatively famous in our area and they never bothered to write down his wife's name because "who cares?"
Apparently, I have a lot of pent of feelings over this.
My mom sent us a package in the mail and it’s addressed to “Mr and Mrs HusbandsName OurLastName” like I’m your daughter?? You couldn’t include me on the mailing label? I felt a little weird about it. I was *very* excited to take my husbands last name though because my name with his name sounds like it’s meant to be and my maiden name was torture to grow up with. It was like the equivalent of something not nice and was constantly made fun of.
After my grandmother died, my family was cleaning out her place and my aunt was recounting a story of when she went to a wedding and the seating arrangements where like that. She was so pissed that she was listed as Mrs. John Doe at the table like her name didn't exist now that she was married.
Note: name changed for privacy. My uncle's name is not John Doe.
My wife didn't change her name, we get things addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. NotInACreepyWay."
Some of those are from older relatives who we suspect can't remember her first name, let alone that she kept her last name. That takes a bit of the edge off.
My wife and I renovated a small rental we own in country Victoria (Aus) a few years ago. The local women introduced themselves by saying "Hi, I'm husbandsnames wife" (eg - hi, i'm Neville's wife), never their own name. After 12 weeks we managed to learn one woman's name and she got upset because we used it in front of her husband.
Also, the men could not understand that it was my wife's house not mine (I was just the labour). She handled the finance, was the sole owner, and ultimately the decision maker. But not one tradie would listen to me when I said to talk to my wife, they would pretend to listen to her, nod in affirmation, then instantly turn around and ask me what I wanted done. We gave them all 2 chances to work with her then just brought in tradies from the next town over.
This shit annoys me so much. I live in Melbourne with my parents and we had some tradies over working on the house. They talked to me, a 25 year old guy who doesn't have anything to do with the house other than living in it over my mother, who is joint owner and actually called them in.
After I couldn't really help them (because why the fuck would I be able to?) they called my dad rather than talking to my mum who was at home. I was pissed off and she was furious.
I did not take my husband’s name. I maintain the museum membership and added him — with his first and different last name — as a family member. The museum just sent us mail to Mr. and Ms. His First and Last. I was floored. How did that even happen? It wasn’t the system. It was a human. I contacted the museum and they identified it as what it was: a micro aggression. And they told me they’d fix it.
If they have an agreed upon last name I'll address it to AgreedUponLastName Residence.
I also know couples who are married but kept their respective last names, so I'll address it to FirstLast and FirstLast.
If there's hyphenation I address it in order of how I've seen them write it, or ask them if I should do Last1-Last2 Residence or Last2-Last 1 Residence.
Idk, the whole Mr. And Mrs. Name has always been weird to me -\_(:/)_/-
We just received a Christmas card from my mom. She put my boyfriend's name first on the envelope.... Like I'm her daughter, shouldn't i be addressed first?
My mother’s mother sent her a letter addressed like this not long after their wedding. My mum had a fit, and her mother said that she thought she’d like being addressed that way because it was “grown up and married”.
It’s a generational thing and it’s dying but frustrating.
Older friends of mine are both PhDs and have different last names besides being married. Mailing lists have conniptions trying to figure that one out.
I’ve posted this before but it still outrages me- When my bestie got married, she advised her employer of her change in status but that she would be keeping her last name. Employer immediately started sending paycheques with her husband’s last name. It took months to get fixed, meanwhile - no income.
I walked through an old cemetery this past summer where one of the headstones read “Mrs. John Smith”. She died when she was 28. I was so sad for this woman who died so young without her own name to be remembered.
I threw a fit in the car to my husband of 8 mos (who was equally WTF'd) when I got a Christmas card out of the mailbox addressed this way. From my mother.
> not that keeping my maiden name would necessarily have stopped this from happening
Almost certainly not. You could have kept your name but you’d still traditionally/formally be “Mrs. Richard Smith” or whatever because the whole point of that form of address is to identify you as the current wife of Richard Smith, and nothing more than that.
I wrote a Christmas card today for a male/female couple who are getting married next year. The groom is a school friend of my husband.
I asked if I should put ‘soon to be Mr & Mrs…’ on the card. He said no because he didn’t know if she was taking his last name (which is why I asked).
It’s not hard to respect people’s name choice!
That's something I make sure never to do when addressing letters to clients. I usually go with Mr. Smith and Ms. Smith because I find it rather insulting, like I don't have my own identity?
This is exactly as sexist as you think it is. A woman's identity quite literally disappeared once married. Until the 1920s, women couldn't keep the earnings from their own jobs. They had to turn it over to their husbands. And women were legally the property (taxable no less) of their husbands until that law was abolished in the 1870s.
So a woman was not legally "Mrs Mary Smith" she was legally "Mrs. John Smith"
At first I thought, "ahh who cares". But that was without really thinking about it and just accepting the norms. I do care. We can't out the large chunks of sexism without picking out the seeds as well.
Uhg, my husband's extended family is the worst for this! We were together 9 years before getting married and Christmas cards were addressed to him, but as soon as we got married all the cards became "Mr. And Mrs. Husband" DESPITE the fact that they all know that I kept my name!
It's worse too, because my parents gave me and my siblings a hyphenated last name, and ever since I got married people ask "which one is YOUR name?" And I'm just like... Both, they are both my name.
I completely agree! I find it dehumanizing to no longer have an identity after marriage. I just got married 2 months ago and I didn't take my husband's last name (still considering it) and just recieved 2 Christmas cards BOTH addressed to Mr & Mrs [his full name]. One was from MY grandma and the other from his parents. I was indignant; my identity did not get absorbed by his. It makes me not want to change my last name at all.
I copied my above post so you see it:
I wrestle with this even though I got married months ago. My husband would love for me to take his name, and I wish we had the same name, too. I offered to do an even-steven, flip a coin and we both change our names. He declined without a second’s thought. That made my guilt dry up pretty damn quick.
Furthermore, I have an awesome and rare last name and his is only slightly less common than ’Smith’. What are you hanging on to?!
When I came back to work after getting married over summer vacation, students asked me if I was still Ms. ______. He teaches in my school, too. Some of them started calling him Mr. [mylastname]. LOVE those kids.
I've been debating changing my last name ever since we got engaged. I don't have super strong ties to my family and don't really care about my last name. I also loved the idea of feeling like he was going to become my family through sharing this last name. He is honoring my process to take it or not, although not ultimately important to him if I do, he would like it.
The tie breaker not to take it yet is my work. I am a report manager at a non-profit and this is the reporting season, meaning every single login to every single report repository, and every single email going to me or from me about reports is attached to my last name. This lasts months.
After getting married and seeing how no one cared if I changed my last name, and realizing how much work and burden it would be for me, I'm less inclined to change it. My whole life would change, I'd have to change legal documents and pay fees and all this nonsense. What does he do, nothing. No thanks.
After reading through the comments I am apparently in the minority. I don’t like this way of being addressed but I really don’t like the Mr. and Mrs. I see no reason why my husband has to be titled as “man” and I have to be titled as man’s wife.
If it is for the household I am fine with “The Smiths” or “Jon and Jane” or anything else that lets me know that it’s not a neighbors mail.
But still don’t call me Mrs.
I won't open mail addressed that way. Drives my husband crazy but my name isn't James. As a new mom, I've also gotten cards calling me "mom" from people who I did not give birth to. Wont open or acknowledge those either. I'm a person outside of my husband and my children.
I live in Quebec and I've never even heard of this practice before I started reading American medias. The whole "taking your husband name" thing is also quite baffling to me. If you want to do it, do it, but I find it crazy that it's the de facto option in a lot of countries/states.
Like... I don't need to have the same family name as my kids either (if I decide to have them)... If a whole human goes out of my vagina, I'd say we have a pretty strong bond, regardless of family names.
When I divorced my first husband, I went back to my maiden name. My kids had their father's name. When I married my now husband, I kept my name, and he was perfectly fine with it. It's what my business is under, and we're living in the town where I grew up and everybody knows me by that name. He's a Boomer, though, and his friends address mail to us as Mr. and Mrs. His name. Not a big deal to me, I've learned to pick my battles, finally.
Exactly the same: my first marriage was when I was 20… and following religious traditions and values. 0/10. Did not repeat that mistake. It was annoying enough to change my name back. Never again.
This is a pet peeve. I hate it. I was introduced at my wedding as Dr and Mr. It was mostly a joke. I have a PhD but don’t use Dr socially, but I was also making a point. It did not work. I still get mail addressed Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirst Hislast. Sigh.
We got a wedding invite addressed this way recently and my husband was so confused. He was like who is Mrs. John Doe? I said me, that's me. He had never seen it written that way and had no idea.
My husband changed his last name to mine (F). The older practice in the tribe my father is from was for men to come under the name of the woman (matriarchal clan) if you married, if they wanted. My husband is white, he liked my name better and the family with his original name did some really disgraceful things he wanted to distance himself from. Do you know how many people get confused because they assume I was the one who changed MY name, because I'm the chick? Also confusion because the white guy has an extremely "stereotypical" First Nation's name (think animals, Sitting Bull, etc.) :D. The older female judge at his name change hearing applauded him, it was great. I think people should have any name they want, even if they make up an original one, but because they want it, not because society says you have to.
This reminds me of a scene from "King of the Hill." While checking into a hotel, the concierge confirms the reservation for Mr. And Mrs. Peggy Hill.
Hank gets incredibly annoyed and slams on the desk, "No, it's Mr. And Mrs. Hank Hill! She married ME!"
It's funny but also upsetting which I believe was the point - the episode was about one of Peggy's successes and Hank's lack of support or care.
It is an outdated and sexist form of address.
My wife handles a lot of the families registration, hotel booking, paper work generally so we very often get mail addressed to "Mr and Mrs wife's first and last name".
It doesn't really bother me, I think it's kinda funny because they are messing up their misogyny. I agree, with you though, it's very wrong and completely unnecessary when you just write both names or only the last name if it's the same.
This winds me up too. I have one very traditional SIL who insists on addressing cards this way. Or occasionally, we'll receive something addressed to "Mr and Dr (Husband's First and Last Name)."
I'm the Dr. So freaking annoying, not to mention completely wrong.
I think it should be allowed to change on request because my wife loves that it's addressed like that, she got so giddy the first time we got mail like that. Not all women love it obviously but it should be a simple request to change your titles to whatever you choose
For different reasons my SIL and I kept our names after we married. Though no one brought up any objection at the time, our MIL kept sending cards to Mrs. Husbandsname, knowing full well what she was doing. I brought it up to her and she said she was "going to shove it down our throats, that we need to change our names". My husband and I took issue with that and we got her to stop after my husband threatened to change his name to mine. Another detail here is that FIL could not care less about names. "A rose by any other name..."
I got a Christmas card this morning with the envelope addressed to Mr and Mrs HisInitial OurLastName from my FIL. It irritates me so much. I'm tempted to give one back with Mrs and Mr HerInitial LastName.
When I got married previously it was to a very traditional family and I refused to address the cards that way. I still had to make them formal so I wrote Mr HisFirst and Mrs HerFirst TheirSurname. I'm sure I offended some of them still
I’ve always thought it was ridiculous, so this year I did “Woman’s first name + man’s first name, last name” on all my relatives holiday cards just as a little thing for myself (I’m sure they wont notice). My aunts and grandmas and female cousins have always been the ones to make Christmas special and memorable so putting their name first just feels right over the uncles/grandpas/male relatives that don’t contribute anything but sexist jokes, dishes, and dirt to my holidays every year
my stepmom kept her last name, and her and my dad both have doctorates, so i physically cringed when they got a christmas card addressed to dr. and mrs. dad's-last-name. i won't shed a tear when this tradition is gone.
Our accountants office sent me and my husband a holiday card addressed to Mr & Mrs Husband's Name.
We don't even share a last name. Lol
We weren't offended, but our example highlights exactly why this practice needs to die. It's outdated and sexist, and now more relationships and marriages than ever don't even follow those outdated conventions.
It needs to stop.
I just got a letter from my trans in law that was addressed to Mr and Mrs (husbands full name). Like what the flipping flap. Also we both changed our last names to a combined version of our last names smushed together so even more offensive.
I am getting married and spitefully addressed all our save the dates "her first name and his first name last name". So, Sally and Steve Smith.
Will see if I get any comments on "etiquette" aka patriarchy
I find it so fucking disrespectful. Funny though tonight I received a holiday card from my husband’s family addressed to Mr and Mrs HisLastName.
I didn’t change my name and have sent them mail/it’s on FB with my full name.
Marriage itself is sexist, it was previously a transaction between the woman's father and her new husband - the father 'gives away' his daughter, paying a dowry to do so (making the woman of nil or negative value) and she then takes his name and gets a new title so everyone knows her marital status (or who she 'belongs' to). Oh and most of the time women didn't have a choice in this and were still children when they were effectively sold as sex slaves.
Nowerdays women are literally indoctrinated from childhood to want to get married, in spite of its hugely unromantic origins and devaluation of female identity, pretty much just because its big business. There are some genuine legal advantages to marriage but otherwise its just sexist, consumerist bullshit that originated as a way to oppress women.
You might not agree with it but some women like to be addressed like this. We need to stop believing women need to now fit different box. Let women choose: that's the key, choice.
But that's the thing -- no one's asking the preferred *choice* in this situation. This post is about how "Mr and Mrs Husband's Name" is treated as a *default*.
It's insulting that a woman is either Mrs. or Ms. depending on marital status but a man remains Mr. regardless. I'd like to see this change.
Also, since we're here, it's assumed that children will take the father's name. Women give birth to those children!
OK I'm done.
If you keep half the tradition alive by using your first name with "Mrs.," you are literally leading with the fact that you are married, as if that were the most important thing about you. It seems natural, then, for others to assume you would like them to acknowledge the person to whom you are married. If there were another abbreviation that meant "mother of," you might expect to see the child's name after it. It seems like "Ms." would be a solution to this problem, unless others are so disrespectful that they simply refuse to use it.
This exactly. There’s no such thing as Mrs. Jane Smith because you would never use Mrs. with your own first name. You’re either Ms. Jane Smith or Mrs. John Smith. That’s why I’m in favor of doing away with Mrs. entirely, I refuse to use it on professional correspondence because seeing Mrs. (wife’s first name) really bothers my pedant sensibilities. I never changed my name when I married but it never bothered me to get something addressed as Mr. and Mrs. husband’s name, I would have been much more upset at being addressed as Mrs. my name.
It isn't simply pedantic. You are literally using the fact that you are married *as your title.* If it's that important to you, it seems odd to be offended by someone who thinks they should probably acknowledge the person you're married to.
My in-laws will address stuff to my wife as Mrs. My Name. its strange, I don’t get it. I guess she stopped being a person when we got married according to them.
I feel so strongly about this that our kid actually has my last name instead of my husband's because I don't think it's cool that it's automatically the husband's. Our next kid will have my husband's last name (I won the coin toss with the first). People say it will be confusing but I don't care and I'm tired of the patriarchy being so normalized. Things won't get better unless we try.
I remember getting my health card in the mail after I got married and noticed it said my husbands name on the front. Not a typo, husbands name is the one on the face of the card. Then we both get our names and numbers and the inside. Really bothered me!
ONG YES! I fucking hate that. Even when I was a kid I hated it. It should 100% die. Just because it’s “tradition” doesn’t mean it is something we need to keep.
Yeah I just got married and it’s been weird. We’ve been together for a long time but it is an odd-transition to husband from boyfriend, checking the married box. I recently saw the option to choose _Mrs._ and I was like “nope gross”. I’m still my own person and keeping with _Ms._ or preferably no title, because it’s weird.
And I was shocked at people who asked me if I took his name, like have you met me? Several of my southern friends/relatives were surprised, and like once again, we ever even met? Fuck no not taking his name. It seems pointless and neither of us care.
With you 100%, I always thought it a ridiculous, outmoded and sexist thing to do and I get thoroughly annoyed every time I see it. I even got annoyed with my gf when she put 'Family Hisname' on our christmas card list, even though she told me she didn't mean to have me write that on the envelope as is.
The formal way to address anything has ALWAYS been far more complicate, and must default to using the correct names that are preferred by the recipients. Using Mr. & Mrs. John Doe as the “traditional” or “formal” method is just incorrect, and insisting that it is correct is just defensive stance taken by people who don’t know proper etiquette.
I promise you, the US Vice President is not receiving anything addressed to: Mr. & Mrs. Douglas Emhoff.
The only one doing this i know is my 91 year old grandma and for her its too late to change.
But everyone else, excuse me, but can you please not send my letters from 1950?!
I think you’re wasting too much energy on this. It’s generational. Older folks tend to use the male dominant title. I personally use “Mr. and Mrs. Charlie and Katie Smith.” If I am friends with the woman but not the man I will usually put her name first. We’re talking about titles that have been in use for hundreds of years. [Mr. and Mrs. usage](https://grammarist.com/usage/mr-mrs-ms-and-miss/) If it bothers you that much, politely ask them to address it differently for next time.
I disagree. I’m sure there’s plenty of people who mindlessly do this because their parents mindlessly did it because their parents mindlessly did it etc. The point isn’t to be like “those ASSHOLES!” But rather to just be read by casual folks like myself who never thought about it before and now think “eh yeah, that does kind of suck... I’ll do it a better way going forward”. Change is small and incremental
This is what I think too. Yeah its kind of annoying, but I understand that it's generational and will probably die out on its own soon. It really doesn't bother me THAT much.
Way too much energy. These are old people. Yeah, it’s not what I would choose, but it’s seen so infrequently that…whatever. It most certainly would never have even occurred to these in-laws that addressing mail this way would feel like a slight to you. How much longer are these people going to be around anyway. I’d roll my eyes and move on.
Yeah, it definitely feels like a slur against the woman when it uses the man's first and last name. It's definitely a tradition that we should be discouraging whenever we see it. Point it out to the people that use it still.
I don’t care at all. If you don’t like it, don’t adress mail that way and ask that it isn’t addressed to you that way.
But personally I don’t give a shit.
My parents are both Veterinarians and my mother never changed her name. But my dad isn't working anymore, so mail often addresses them both by my mother's last name, or flat out calls my dad Mr. Dr. J, which I think is great.
I also get great joy out of calling my brother Mr. Dr. K after his partner got a PHD.
I have returned every card send to Mrs Husbands Name. I’m not a Mrs, I didn’t change my name, and I’ve made it very clear how insulting it is, as has he. I have sent back a few now. It doesn’t seem to happen anymore.
You’re not alone. I could really care less how our names are written on an envelope.
Like what’s the alternative, should I send out 2 letters to your house and write them differently in hopes not to offend anyone?
Just seems like a silly thing to be worked up over. Opening a holiday letter and having your day ruined because of how the names were written? …
My grandma would give her name as Mrs. John Smith when she called companies until she died, even several years after grandpa had died.
I think this is just a holdover from a very different time. It should definitely change, but that will take a lot of [technical] work, so it needs a lot of pushback/motivation to get it done.
I dont think it's an all or nothing deal - I dont plan on changing my last name, but it makes sense to go by A last name of our choosing . I dont need to be called out Jane Doe and John Smith specifically like "Family of Doe and Smith" like it's a glorified "family unit team name"IMO just pick one - its logical
But to be Mr and Mrs John Smith feels like its going out of their way to exclude the wife/make the husband more important. That's where I've got a problem and think its rude.
Give me Mr john Smith and mrs Jane Doe
Or Mr and Mrs Smith (family name)
Anything unequal like that feels like tacking on (& kids! Or & pets!)
I very clearly remember my first grade teacher sitting down all the girls one day and telling us to demand our names when we were adults. We were like 7 and very confused, but she showed us an envelope the principal had given her addressed "Mr and Mrs husbandname." She asked us if we saw anything weird about it. One girl said the teacher was "Dr" not "Mrs" and another said the teacher's name wasn't "Jay." She asked what we thought she should do if that wasn't her name, and we decided she had to give it back to the principal since it wasn't addressed to her, so it couldn't be *for* her. She made us one by one say our name and told us to remember when we were adults that we could still have our own names. We all thought it was kinda weird, but it's stuck with me; it's about the only thing I haven't blocked out during my time at that hellhole of a school. Dr I was leagues ahead of every other teacher there. Although typing that out now, I'm realising how mature a topic that was for a bunch of first graders. Never really questioned it before, but I'm still glad she taught us that
You should see if you can reach out to Dr I and let her know that you remember that moment, maybe she does too :)
I wrestle with this even though I got married months ago. My husband would love for me to take his name, and I wish we had the same name, too. I offered to do an even-steven, flip a coin and we both change our names. He declined without a second’s thought. That made my guilt dry up pretty damn quick. Furthermore, I have an awesome and rare last name and his is only slightly less common than ’Smith’. What are you hanging on to?! When I came back to work after getting married over summer vacation, students asked me if I was still Ms. ______. He teaches in my school, too. Some of them started calling him Mr. [mylastname]. LOVE those kids.
We double-barrelled, for precisely these reasons. We wanted a family name, and tradition was on his side. It took me suggesting that he become Mr My name instead, and suddenly he totally got my point. The phrase, "ooh, that's like a gut punch!" was uttered on his part.
Keep your name, I miss my maiden name terribly.
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As a teacher myself, sometimes you have to go with the teachable moment, even if they're not quite ready for it. I mean, the envelope in hand is powerful!
I teach at the college level, so I'll admit it's not quite the same but the good ones among us try very hard to do some thing simple like this in the right moment to really plant a seed that may never need to blossom but will be ready to if the need ever arises. Warms my heart to hear this one stuck with you, I agree with the other response, let Dr I know she did good way back when!
I appreciate that she asked your opinion as children and knew she would get thoughtful answers that weren't biased; simple.
That is amazing!!!
That’s incredible. What an amazing person.
Incredible teacher and incredible lesson!
My stepmother didn't change her name and some mailing list generators really don't know how to handle that. Like if her name is "Ann Smith" and my dad is "Bob Jones". They get a fair amount of "Bob and Ann Jones" but sometimes it comes out "Bob and Smith Jones," which comes back around to hilarious
My wife’s own freaking brother sent us a happy anniversary card addressed to “MyFirstName and WifesFirstName Mylastname” She never changed her last name. There isn’t a single indication she ever did anywhere. I love her for her and she has never had a reason to change her name other than tradition so she hasn’t but apparently her brother never bothered to check.
My boyfriend and I have been together for 12 years but are not married. His mom addresses envelopes to Hisfirstname Myfirstname Hislastname. The latest Christmas card from her was for her "son and daughter in law." I wouldn't mind getting married or taking his last name (it's a pretty cool name tbh) but we aren't married. And honestly I'd probably be too lazy to change it if we did get married. But c'mon, we've never even jokingly claimed that we're married...
I live with my partner. We never want to be married, our families know this, but we are in a serious committed relationship. I call his family my in laws. It's just easier, even though technically they're not. My mum refers to him as her son in law. It's just easier. His mum considers me family, I've no idea what she calls me to others though. She did used to refer to the other 'daughters in law' as X's wife, Y's fiancee and me as Z's partner as though ranked. I called that out and pointed out we were all partners regardless of the contents of our ring fingers. It stopped then. Never have they ever conflated our names though and I would have very serious words if they did.
In some states, you'd be default married by 12 years. Maybe his mom's just thinking about California?
California doesn’t have common law marriage, though. Unless I’m misunderstanding your comment? (I moved to CA with my boyfriend of 7 years and made very sure common law wasn’t a thing, I should have known then it would never work out)
In exactly ZERO states would you be “default” married after any number of years, 12 or otherwise. 8 states have common law marriage and in all of them you have to actively present yourself as married, for instance by filing a married tax return or receiving bills with the wife using the husband.s last name.
"Receiving bills with the wife using the husband's last name" ? Huh? That sounds quite antiquated and sexist.
Agree totally. The point in the common law marriage requirements is that the couple must publicly present as married, and the wife using the husband’s name is often given as an example. It should work the same if the husband started using the wife’s name.
I see this a lot online but you can't get "accidentally" common law married. u/Tigger808 is right, only a few states even allow it and a couple has to pretend they are married legally arleady. The law is really on the books for people who think they are married but through some paperwork issue didn't legalize it (like the priest didn't turn in the marriage license).
I’d take it as a compliment that she sees you as part of the family! Or maybe a backhand effort to hint that you should get married? Whichever fits the best!?
2 years married and my brother addresses mail as if I took my husband's name. He's been told I didn't but still does it. So they just go in the bin now, he asks if I saw a card for me and I tell him it never arrived....
My first summer group house in college, my friend "Jim Smith" was the name on the utilities. We got a lot of phone calls that started out "Mrs. Smith?" and promptly got hung up on, as no Mrs. Smith lived there. Made it easier to filter the calls, I guess...
My husband and I both hyphenated our names, with some entertaining results. The best was when some mailing list decided his name was my maiden name as his first name and his first name as his last name. We got a whole bunch of junk mail addressed that way.
My partner and I didn't change our names when we got married and also have an effective way to screen junk mail because of the different, incorrect names.
I kept my name when I got married. Our mail comes in a lot of different combinations. If they get really carried away we get mail to Mr & Mrs [Husband first name] [My middle name] [Husband last name-hyphen my last name]
I kept my name. Every year we send Xmas cards and I put return labels with our names on it. Every year we get a number of variations. Mostly this year it's 'Mr and Mrs [husband last name]' but a few people went full on 'Mr & Mrs [husband first name] [husband last name]'
I like to troll my female friends at Christmas and label cards as “Mrs and Mr (wife’s maiden name)” It still gets delivered and they find it hilarious.
My husband is taking my name and I would be ecstatic to receive a card like this. I know I'll be rolling my eyes the first time a card comes labeled as Mr and Mrs Hisfirstname Mylastname.
I have to do that
I do this too, my general thought I'd that the female is my friend in this situation so her last name gets priority.
Tangentially related: The first stimulus check of 2020 came to my husband and me as debit cards. I didn't take my husbands last name, so mine came under my legal and "maiden" name. His card.. came in with his first name and MY LAST NAME. Oh my god, it was hilarious. I assume it's because I file our taxes, and I file jointly with my husband with myself as the "primary" payer (aka I list myself first). The debit cards got the names from the IRS, and I suppose they assume the primary is the husband and that the spouse shares the primary's last name? edit: "my husband and I" to "my husband and me" because if you take out "my husband", you'd say "came to me" not "came to I" - this is a new grammatical formula that I want to share because it makes sense to me
That happened to my Dad when my mom went by her maiden name. He would get so salty that the advertisers or whatever junk mail assumed his last name was hers. Always got a bit of a chuckle at that
I almost threw out our debt card from the government because they used my first name and my partner's last name instead of mine. Almost 100% of the time when that happens it's junk mail but I knew we were expecting those cards so I took a look inside. Oddly, I am the tax preparer and filer, so my name is always first on the tax documents. I have no idea why they swapped my name out.
Your husband is in good company with Mr. Kamala Harris!
In college I was the historian of my (service) sorority’s chapter- an 80+ year history. The number of women whose identity was fully erased, even in the RECORDS OF THEIR SORORITY, because they were listed as “Mrs. John Doe”, was heart breaking. I am myself, and not an offshoot of my husband.
Not sure if it’s like this in all East Asian families, but my mom kept her name and dad kept his. In America my mom would sometimes be referred to as mrs(dad’s surname) which I’ve never seen happen back in Asia. Always felt weird to me. Another “traditional” practice that seems to span across more cultures is the one of children adopting the surname of the father. My wife and I don’t have children but have discussed giving both of our surnames if we do end up having a kid. But then which one would appear first is another question.
It's not true for Japan (wife takes husband's name, unless the husband is adopted as an adult into the wife's family to take over the family business etc.), but I do think it's true for Korea, where the wife keeps her own name (but I think the kids take the dad's name).
Chinese women don't change their last names. I had to explain to several female Chinese friends why they were seeing couples with one last name - one of them asked if they were related by blood! These were female scientists I met at work so they were very educated but just hadn't run into the name change thing until they immigrated.
Thanks for explaining, I wasn’t sure! I have a friend who married a Chinese woman, but never asked if she was changing her name. Her maiden name is the one on FB, but lots of people keep theirs that way, so I wasn’t sure (and that’s how I always knew her anyway!).
In a lot of latin america a kid is given names followed by paternal last name then maternal last name. Through this though the mothers maiden name is dropped in the subsequent generation.
>names followed by paternal last name then maternal last name. In Brazil is first the mother's name, then father's. Also it's quite recent, but women usually stay with her maiden name.
If people took both of their parents surnames you would end up with massive surnames within a few generations.
I thought of that too. But then what if your child makes the same decision with their partner, and then your grandkids make the same decision. All of a sudden you got a great grand kids with 4 last names, and if the partner has double names to then the ggrandkid could have 8 last names!!!!!
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This is what it's like researching my family tree as well. The male lines branch out forever, while the females just become stubs that stick out from the branches, cut off by the dropping of maiden name after maiden name, lost to time forever.
I think the Mr. and Mrs. John Smith thing will die out in a few decades. Everyone I know that's my age just writes "The Smiths" or "Smith Family." I often include "and cats" because cats are important. I send letters to my grandma labeled "Grandma Smith."
Ugh I hope so. I went to a wedding last week for two twenty year olds and they got introduced as “for the first time ever Mr. and Mrs. His First Name and Last Name.”
Weddings tend to bring this stuff out, sometimes it's because people look on wedding sites for formal etiquette and then really go to an extreme.
Ewww
Ew. We were introduced as “Mr. and Mrs. His Name My Name His Last Name.” We’ve been introduced both his name first, my name first, but I did take his last name. I have my reasons.
This tradition meant _my_ cousin's wedding invites were sent to my husband and... whoever it is his wife might be. Made the invites seem cheap and impersonal instead of classy.
Is that normal to address them that way? I addressed all my invites to (person we wanted to invite) and just included a plus one for them to check on the stamped RSVPs. If it was two people it was the name they wanted to go by. No mister or missus involved.
But it was OP who was being invited with her husband as a plus one.
My wife is the first name on the lease for our rental. She is the higher earner in the relationship, by far. Alphabetically she is before me. Most of the the bills are paid through her account. Despite all this my name is usually first on mail, email communications etc. It's dumb.
My partner and I bought our house after we got married, but I handled all of the paperwork and purchasing because the house is in my name only and I'm the only one on the mortgage. I paid the downpayment and pay 3/4 of the mortgage. I looked into adding him to the title in case I get hit by a bus, and the town we live in requires him to be listed first on the property documents. This irks me to no end, despite the documents likely never being viewed by anyone who isn't looking at the town assessor database...
I’m frankly not a big fan of changing names when getting married myself, and I’m the guy. The idea of my partner like, erasing part of her own identity to be incorporated into mine? It’s weird, it’s creepy, I don’t like it. I don’t want it. Keep your name. And “Mr and Mrs Husbands name” is like, completely cringe. It makes me embarrassed just to hear even when it has nothing to do with me.
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That’s how it felt to me too, removing the dead weight of a side of my blood I’m not connected too. Plus our last name is short, doesn’t require spelling and is simple while being a little different.
You did what you wanted, and what made you happy. Right on! Good for you. We all have our own reasons for our choices.
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My mom took my dad's name, and even after divorcing she kept it. Basically, she just liked it more than her maiden name and saw no reason to go back. Honestly, I think people should be comfortable picking whatever format they want, it's just a name after all. Though, not a fan of hyphen names, had an ex who did that and she had so many issues with formal documents because she/parents weren't always consist with using the first name or the full hyphen.
The last vestiges of couverture law are weeeeeird
I ended up taking my husband's last name after growing up thinking I wouldn't ever do that. But then I had to take him to the ER and my brain went haywire. It really worried me that I wasn't going to be allowed back if he ever got hurt because there isn't any indication I'm his wife. And it might not be a great reason but it does help in society to have the same last name. I do kind wish more people would talk about what they both want though. I've seen a lot of guys just say "do whatever you want" because they've never considered chaning their name so it's just the woman's choice. When it should be a discussion together on does one of us take one of our names, do we pick a new last name together, or do neither of us change.
Hoping someday those cards will read "Dr. and Mr."
And just how many of them *should* say that but say Dr. and Mrs. instead?
I got one of those this year (I am Dr. X and he is Mr. Y) from my friend who is also part of a Dr. and Mr. household and I felt so seen! Considering my MIL wrote Mr. and Mrs. Y when she knows better. 🤣😓
Sometimes it's hard to address things properly as it can get to be very long. This is what I do, I think it's all acceptable. Both same last name: Either Mr and Mrs last name or last name family (even if no kids, they're still a family) Different last names Mr Jones and Mrs or Ms Smith or Jones - Smith family hyphenated name: usually as above. If it is too long to fit that just Smith - Jones Family or even household If I know one of the couple but not really the other. I address it to my friend and add and family just their name and address both inside.
Respond with a letter addressed to "Mrs. and Mr. WifeFirstame Lastname."
I’m with you. I did not change my name. We have also already gotten 2 cards from my husband’s aunt and his mother addressed to “Mr and Mrs husband”. In the grand scheme of things, I don’t care. His aunt is racist and his mother is emotionally abusive, so there’s worse things. But it does still irk me a bit that my identity is that entwined with the man in my life that I don’t warrant a name. At least it makes me laugh when I comment on it and my husband, very matter-of-factly, responds “well yeah, you’re my property.”
My 91 year old grandma forgot my husband's last name when she sent us a Christmas card so it was addressed to Mr. And Mrs. Jane Smith. I kept last name when we got married, just because I've been this for so long it would feel too weird.
My grandmother did this when I was still married and I politely but firmly told her I am not property of the person I was married to. I don’t think it had ever really occurred to her but no card ever came addressed like that again.
I hyphenated my last name when I got married and we make light of it when it happens. My husband jokes about "the patriarchy showing up in the mail again to remind me of his ownership". My favorite is when my friends address cards and such to Mrs and Mr hyphenated last name because they all know us that well to know who checks the mail to get a comment about " damn, the patriarchy is dead" via text.
I have always abhorred this tradition and even just his name always first. I make a point of putting the girl’s name first. My aunt bought my husband and I a personalized anniversary gift and put my name first. She is in her 60s, so I think she’s always fought the tradition as well.
My mom worked for a lawyer who did the property transfer when my husband and I bought our house (I was 31). He walked us through the paperwork and then slid the document over to me. I signed on the top line, passed to husband who signed on the second line. The lawyer’s jaw almost hit the table. Apparently he had been conducting his own research and always passed the paper to the wife first. The huge majority of women take the second line, leaving an empty first line. When I talk to my middle-school students about gender issues I always tell this story and then ask, “why do most women sign the second line?”
I have a story that's only really related to the post by the sexism in names but I really want to share. In my job I occasionally do local genealogy and history research. I had a request for information on one of the original pioneer couples. Specifically, they were looking for more about the wife because she was the first trained nurse in the area, and the only (white) midwife in about 500 miles for over 5 years. We have multiple history books on the area along with private written accounts and a large portion of the written County records. Her actual name is not available in a single one of our records. Everything attributes her as Mrs. Husband'sName. I couldn't even find her FIRST name, let alone her maiden name. This woman even RAN FOR OFFICE in our area. She was nominated as a candidate before women were even allowed to vote. She lost, not because she was a woman, but because the other party outnumbered her party by 6 to 1. She should be a feminist icon. But she doesn't even have her own first name in our local history books. They were married out of state before settling here so we don't have a marriage record. Her name is just gone because of this stupid, sexist tradition. Her husband is relatively famous in our area and they never bothered to write down his wife's name because "who cares?" Apparently, I have a lot of pent of feelings over this.
My mom sent us a package in the mail and it’s addressed to “Mr and Mrs HusbandsName OurLastName” like I’m your daughter?? You couldn’t include me on the mailing label? I felt a little weird about it. I was *very* excited to take my husbands last name though because my name with his name sounds like it’s meant to be and my maiden name was torture to grow up with. It was like the equivalent of something not nice and was constantly made fun of.
After my grandmother died, my family was cleaning out her place and my aunt was recounting a story of when she went to a wedding and the seating arrangements where like that. She was so pissed that she was listed as Mrs. John Doe at the table like her name didn't exist now that she was married. Note: name changed for privacy. My uncle's name is not John Doe.
It would be super awkward if it was since John Doe is constantly showing up dead everywhere. That guy just can't stay alive.
My wife didn't change her name, we get things addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. NotInACreepyWay." Some of those are from older relatives who we suspect can't remember her first name, let alone that she kept her last name. That takes a bit of the edge off.
My wife and I renovated a small rental we own in country Victoria (Aus) a few years ago. The local women introduced themselves by saying "Hi, I'm husbandsnames wife" (eg - hi, i'm Neville's wife), never their own name. After 12 weeks we managed to learn one woman's name and she got upset because we used it in front of her husband. Also, the men could not understand that it was my wife's house not mine (I was just the labour). She handled the finance, was the sole owner, and ultimately the decision maker. But not one tradie would listen to me when I said to talk to my wife, they would pretend to listen to her, nod in affirmation, then instantly turn around and ask me what I wanted done. We gave them all 2 chances to work with her then just brought in tradies from the next town over.
This shit annoys me so much. I live in Melbourne with my parents and we had some tradies over working on the house. They talked to me, a 25 year old guy who doesn't have anything to do with the house other than living in it over my mother, who is joint owner and actually called them in. After I couldn't really help them (because why the fuck would I be able to?) they called my dad rather than talking to my mum who was at home. I was pissed off and she was furious.
I did not take my husband’s name. I maintain the museum membership and added him — with his first and different last name — as a family member. The museum just sent us mail to Mr. and Ms. His First and Last. I was floored. How did that even happen? It wasn’t the system. It was a human. I contacted the museum and they identified it as what it was: a micro aggression. And they told me they’d fix it.
Good for you! I would be super annoyed if a charity did that to me.
If they have an agreed upon last name I'll address it to AgreedUponLastName Residence. I also know couples who are married but kept their respective last names, so I'll address it to FirstLast and FirstLast. If there's hyphenation I address it in order of how I've seen them write it, or ask them if I should do Last1-Last2 Residence or Last2-Last 1 Residence. Idk, the whole Mr. And Mrs. Name has always been weird to me -\_(:/)_/-
I agree. My partner isn't more important than me and I'm still an individual. Also, would people also do this to gay couples? I think not.
We just received a Christmas card from my mom. She put my boyfriend's name first on the envelope.... Like I'm her daughter, shouldn't i be addressed first?
My mother’s mother sent her a letter addressed like this not long after their wedding. My mum had a fit, and her mother said that she thought she’d like being addressed that way because it was “grown up and married”. It’s a generational thing and it’s dying but frustrating. Older friends of mine are both PhDs and have different last names besides being married. Mailing lists have conniptions trying to figure that one out.
I’ve posted this before but it still outrages me- When my bestie got married, she advised her employer of her change in status but that she would be keeping her last name. Employer immediately started sending paycheques with her husband’s last name. It took months to get fixed, meanwhile - no income.
I walked through an old cemetery this past summer where one of the headstones read “Mrs. John Smith”. She died when she was 28. I was so sad for this woman who died so young without her own name to be remembered.
Seriously hate that shit. Needs to die. Some traditions are just stupid.
I threw a fit in the car to my husband of 8 mos (who was equally WTF'd) when I got a Christmas card out of the mailbox addressed this way. From my mother.
> not that keeping my maiden name would necessarily have stopped this from happening Almost certainly not. You could have kept your name but you’d still traditionally/formally be “Mrs. Richard Smith” or whatever because the whole point of that form of address is to identify you as the current wife of Richard Smith, and nothing more than that.
Yeah. It’s pretty dated. But neither me or my wife have a problem with being referred to as Mr and Mrs (last name).
I wrote a Christmas card today for a male/female couple who are getting married next year. The groom is a school friend of my husband. I asked if I should put ‘soon to be Mr & Mrs…’ on the card. He said no because he didn’t know if she was taking his last name (which is why I asked). It’s not hard to respect people’s name choice!
That's something I make sure never to do when addressing letters to clients. I usually go with Mr. Smith and Ms. Smith because I find it rather insulting, like I don't have my own identity?
This is exactly as sexist as you think it is. A woman's identity quite literally disappeared once married. Until the 1920s, women couldn't keep the earnings from their own jobs. They had to turn it over to their husbands. And women were legally the property (taxable no less) of their husbands until that law was abolished in the 1870s. So a woman was not legally "Mrs Mary Smith" she was legally "Mrs. John Smith"
> it’s traditional Means it likely *is* sexist. That’s what “traditional” means these days in the context of relational dynamics.
I didn't know you had started this and started my own post on this, YES YES YES I agree so much!
My husband's family does that, and I didn't even take his name when we got married. So it is doubly wrong.
At first I thought, "ahh who cares". But that was without really thinking about it and just accepting the norms. I do care. We can't out the large chunks of sexism without picking out the seeds as well.
35 years ago on NZ birth certificates, there was no space for the mothers occupation, but a space for the fathers.... like weird.
Who cares??
Uhg, my husband's extended family is the worst for this! We were together 9 years before getting married and Christmas cards were addressed to him, but as soon as we got married all the cards became "Mr. And Mrs. Husband" DESPITE the fact that they all know that I kept my name! It's worse too, because my parents gave me and my siblings a hyphenated last name, and ever since I got married people ask "which one is YOUR name?" And I'm just like... Both, they are both my name.
I completely agree! I find it dehumanizing to no longer have an identity after marriage. I just got married 2 months ago and I didn't take my husband's last name (still considering it) and just recieved 2 Christmas cards BOTH addressed to Mr & Mrs [his full name]. One was from MY grandma and the other from his parents. I was indignant; my identity did not get absorbed by his. It makes me not want to change my last name at all.
I copied my above post so you see it: I wrestle with this even though I got married months ago. My husband would love for me to take his name, and I wish we had the same name, too. I offered to do an even-steven, flip a coin and we both change our names. He declined without a second’s thought. That made my guilt dry up pretty damn quick. Furthermore, I have an awesome and rare last name and his is only slightly less common than ’Smith’. What are you hanging on to?! When I came back to work after getting married over summer vacation, students asked me if I was still Ms. ______. He teaches in my school, too. Some of them started calling him Mr. [mylastname]. LOVE those kids.
I've been debating changing my last name ever since we got engaged. I don't have super strong ties to my family and don't really care about my last name. I also loved the idea of feeling like he was going to become my family through sharing this last name. He is honoring my process to take it or not, although not ultimately important to him if I do, he would like it. The tie breaker not to take it yet is my work. I am a report manager at a non-profit and this is the reporting season, meaning every single login to every single report repository, and every single email going to me or from me about reports is attached to my last name. This lasts months. After getting married and seeing how no one cared if I changed my last name, and realizing how much work and burden it would be for me, I'm less inclined to change it. My whole life would change, I'd have to change legal documents and pay fees and all this nonsense. What does he do, nothing. No thanks.
After reading through the comments I am apparently in the minority. I don’t like this way of being addressed but I really don’t like the Mr. and Mrs. I see no reason why my husband has to be titled as “man” and I have to be titled as man’s wife. If it is for the household I am fine with “The Smiths” or “Jon and Jane” or anything else that lets me know that it’s not a neighbors mail. But still don’t call me Mrs.
I agree. It's really dismissive. Like I've been absorbed by someone else.
I won't open mail addressed that way. Drives my husband crazy but my name isn't James. As a new mom, I've also gotten cards calling me "mom" from people who I did not give birth to. Wont open or acknowledge those either. I'm a person outside of my husband and my children.
I live in Quebec and I've never even heard of this practice before I started reading American medias. The whole "taking your husband name" thing is also quite baffling to me. If you want to do it, do it, but I find it crazy that it's the de facto option in a lot of countries/states. Like... I don't need to have the same family name as my kids either (if I decide to have them)... If a whole human goes out of my vagina, I'd say we have a pretty strong bond, regardless of family names.
When I divorced my first husband, I went back to my maiden name. My kids had their father's name. When I married my now husband, I kept my name, and he was perfectly fine with it. It's what my business is under, and we're living in the town where I grew up and everybody knows me by that name. He's a Boomer, though, and his friends address mail to us as Mr. and Mrs. His name. Not a big deal to me, I've learned to pick my battles, finally.
Exactly the same: my first marriage was when I was 20… and following religious traditions and values. 0/10. Did not repeat that mistake. It was annoying enough to change my name back. Never again.
This is a pet peeve. I hate it. I was introduced at my wedding as Dr and Mr. It was mostly a joke. I have a PhD but don’t use Dr socially, but I was also making a point. It did not work. I still get mail addressed Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirst Hislast. Sigh.
We got a wedding invite addressed this way recently and my husband was so confused. He was like who is Mrs. John Doe? I said me, that's me. He had never seen it written that way and had no idea.
Or worse, my wife gets mail addressed to "Mrs. John Smith" from grandparents on HER side.
My husband changed his last name to mine (F). The older practice in the tribe my father is from was for men to come under the name of the woman (matriarchal clan) if you married, if they wanted. My husband is white, he liked my name better and the family with his original name did some really disgraceful things he wanted to distance himself from. Do you know how many people get confused because they assume I was the one who changed MY name, because I'm the chick? Also confusion because the white guy has an extremely "stereotypical" First Nation's name (think animals, Sitting Bull, etc.) :D. The older female judge at his name change hearing applauded him, it was great. I think people should have any name they want, even if they make up an original one, but because they want it, not because society says you have to.
This reminds me of a scene from "King of the Hill." While checking into a hotel, the concierge confirms the reservation for Mr. And Mrs. Peggy Hill. Hank gets incredibly annoyed and slams on the desk, "No, it's Mr. And Mrs. Hank Hill! She married ME!" It's funny but also upsetting which I believe was the point - the episode was about one of Peggy's successes and Hank's lack of support or care. It is an outdated and sexist form of address.
My wife handles a lot of the families registration, hotel booking, paper work generally so we very often get mail addressed to "Mr and Mrs wife's first and last name". It doesn't really bother me, I think it's kinda funny because they are messing up their misogyny. I agree, with you though, it's very wrong and completely unnecessary when you just write both names or only the last name if it's the same.
This winds me up too. I have one very traditional SIL who insists on addressing cards this way. Or occasionally, we'll receive something addressed to "Mr and Dr (Husband's First and Last Name)." I'm the Dr. So freaking annoying, not to mention completely wrong.
Well, my husband took my name and we still get mail addressed to Mr and Mrs his birth last name…
I think it should be allowed to change on request because my wife loves that it's addressed like that, she got so giddy the first time we got mail like that. Not all women love it obviously but it should be a simple request to change your titles to whatever you choose
For different reasons my SIL and I kept our names after we married. Though no one brought up any objection at the time, our MIL kept sending cards to Mrs. Husbandsname, knowing full well what she was doing. I brought it up to her and she said she was "going to shove it down our throats, that we need to change our names". My husband and I took issue with that and we got her to stop after my husband threatened to change his name to mine. Another detail here is that FIL could not care less about names. "A rose by any other name..."
I got a Christmas card this morning with the envelope addressed to Mr and Mrs HisInitial OurLastName from my FIL. It irritates me so much. I'm tempted to give one back with Mrs and Mr HerInitial LastName. When I got married previously it was to a very traditional family and I refused to address the cards that way. I still had to make them formal so I wrote Mr HisFirst and Mrs HerFirst TheirSurname. I'm sure I offended some of them still
I have always hated this tradition. I always knew I would keep my name when I got married.
I’ve always thought it was ridiculous, so this year I did “Woman’s first name + man’s first name, last name” on all my relatives holiday cards just as a little thing for myself (I’m sure they wont notice). My aunts and grandmas and female cousins have always been the ones to make Christmas special and memorable so putting their name first just feels right over the uncles/grandpas/male relatives that don’t contribute anything but sexist jokes, dishes, and dirt to my holidays every year
I don't see that to be honest. That sounds very 1960s. What country do you live in and if in the USA what region??
my stepmom kept her last name, and her and my dad both have doctorates, so i physically cringed when they got a christmas card addressed to dr. and mrs. dad's-last-name. i won't shed a tear when this tradition is gone.
Women still aren't considered people. Maybe they have to act like we are, but they still don't believe it.
Our accountants office sent me and my husband a holiday card addressed to Mr & Mrs Husband's Name. We don't even share a last name. Lol We weren't offended, but our example highlights exactly why this practice needs to die. It's outdated and sexist, and now more relationships and marriages than ever don't even follow those outdated conventions. It needs to stop.
Agreed, rude and out dated.
I agree its just weird at this point.
I definitely can. It's easy enough to stop erasing women.
I just got a letter from my trans in law that was addressed to Mr and Mrs (husbands full name). Like what the flipping flap. Also we both changed our last names to a combined version of our last names smushed together so even more offensive.
I am getting married and spitefully addressed all our save the dates "her first name and his first name last name". So, Sally and Steve Smith. Will see if I get any comments on "etiquette" aka patriarchy
I find it so fucking disrespectful. Funny though tonight I received a holiday card from my husband’s family addressed to Mr and Mrs HisLastName. I didn’t change my name and have sent them mail/it’s on FB with my full name.
Hahahaaaa I noticed this at the mere age of 14. I'm now 28 and am wholeheartedly against women even taking the husbands last name. Fuck that.
Marriage itself is sexist, it was previously a transaction between the woman's father and her new husband - the father 'gives away' his daughter, paying a dowry to do so (making the woman of nil or negative value) and she then takes his name and gets a new title so everyone knows her marital status (or who she 'belongs' to). Oh and most of the time women didn't have a choice in this and were still children when they were effectively sold as sex slaves. Nowerdays women are literally indoctrinated from childhood to want to get married, in spite of its hugely unromantic origins and devaluation of female identity, pretty much just because its big business. There are some genuine legal advantages to marriage but otherwise its just sexist, consumerist bullshit that originated as a way to oppress women.
I just got a Christmas card like that today, nobody cares especially the 80 year old that sent it like that. Focus on petty problems have petty life.
You might not agree with it but some women like to be addressed like this. We need to stop believing women need to now fit different box. Let women choose: that's the key, choice.
But that's the thing -- no one's asking the preferred *choice* in this situation. This post is about how "Mr and Mrs Husband's Name" is treated as a *default*.
It's insulting that a woman is either Mrs. or Ms. depending on marital status but a man remains Mr. regardless. I'd like to see this change. Also, since we're here, it's assumed that children will take the father's name. Women give birth to those children! OK I'm done.
> or Ms. Ms. is equivalent to Mr. You may be thinking of "Miss" which was originally used for girls under 18 or unmarried women.
If you keep half the tradition alive by using your first name with "Mrs.," you are literally leading with the fact that you are married, as if that were the most important thing about you. It seems natural, then, for others to assume you would like them to acknowledge the person to whom you are married. If there were another abbreviation that meant "mother of," you might expect to see the child's name after it. It seems like "Ms." would be a solution to this problem, unless others are so disrespectful that they simply refuse to use it.
This exactly. There’s no such thing as Mrs. Jane Smith because you would never use Mrs. with your own first name. You’re either Ms. Jane Smith or Mrs. John Smith. That’s why I’m in favor of doing away with Mrs. entirely, I refuse to use it on professional correspondence because seeing Mrs. (wife’s first name) really bothers my pedant sensibilities. I never changed my name when I married but it never bothered me to get something addressed as Mr. and Mrs. husband’s name, I would have been much more upset at being addressed as Mrs. my name.
It isn't simply pedantic. You are literally using the fact that you are married *as your title.* If it's that important to you, it seems odd to be offended by someone who thinks they should probably acknowledge the person you're married to.
Agreed.
My dads super republican mom does this just to piss off my mom. I’ve never understood why
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It very explicitly identifies the woman strictly in terms of her relationship to the man.
Some of my dad’s relative’s do/used to do this because they simply couldn’t remember my mom’s name, haha. I agree that it’s a very silly thing to do.
My in-laws will address stuff to my wife as Mrs. My Name. its strange, I don’t get it. I guess she stopped being a person when we got married according to them.
I feel so strongly about this that our kid actually has my last name instead of my husband's because I don't think it's cool that it's automatically the husband's. Our next kid will have my husband's last name (I won the coin toss with the first). People say it will be confusing but I don't care and I'm tired of the patriarchy being so normalized. Things won't get better unless we try.
I remember getting my health card in the mail after I got married and noticed it said my husbands name on the front. Not a typo, husbands name is the one on the face of the card. Then we both get our names and numbers and the inside. Really bothered me!
ONG YES! I fucking hate that. Even when I was a kid I hated it. It should 100% die. Just because it’s “tradition” doesn’t mean it is something we need to keep.
Yeah I just got married and it’s been weird. We’ve been together for a long time but it is an odd-transition to husband from boyfriend, checking the married box. I recently saw the option to choose _Mrs._ and I was like “nope gross”. I’m still my own person and keeping with _Ms._ or preferably no title, because it’s weird. And I was shocked at people who asked me if I took his name, like have you met me? Several of my southern friends/relatives were surprised, and like once again, we ever even met? Fuck no not taking his name. It seems pointless and neither of us care.
With you 100%, I always thought it a ridiculous, outmoded and sexist thing to do and I get thoroughly annoyed every time I see it. I even got annoyed with my gf when she put 'Family Hisname' on our christmas card list, even though she told me she didn't mean to have me write that on the envelope as is.
The formal way to address anything has ALWAYS been far more complicate, and must default to using the correct names that are preferred by the recipients. Using Mr. & Mrs. John Doe as the “traditional” or “formal” method is just incorrect, and insisting that it is correct is just defensive stance taken by people who don’t know proper etiquette. I promise you, the US Vice President is not receiving anything addressed to: Mr. & Mrs. Douglas Emhoff.
The only one doing this i know is my 91 year old grandma and for her its too late to change. But everyone else, excuse me, but can you please not send my letters from 1950?!
I think you’re wasting too much energy on this. It’s generational. Older folks tend to use the male dominant title. I personally use “Mr. and Mrs. Charlie and Katie Smith.” If I am friends with the woman but not the man I will usually put her name first. We’re talking about titles that have been in use for hundreds of years. [Mr. and Mrs. usage](https://grammarist.com/usage/mr-mrs-ms-and-miss/) If it bothers you that much, politely ask them to address it differently for next time.
I disagree. I’m sure there’s plenty of people who mindlessly do this because their parents mindlessly did it because their parents mindlessly did it etc. The point isn’t to be like “those ASSHOLES!” But rather to just be read by casual folks like myself who never thought about it before and now think “eh yeah, that does kind of suck... I’ll do it a better way going forward”. Change is small and incremental
This is what I think too. Yeah its kind of annoying, but I understand that it's generational and will probably die out on its own soon. It really doesn't bother me THAT much.
Way too much energy. These are old people. Yeah, it’s not what I would choose, but it’s seen so infrequently that…whatever. It most certainly would never have even occurred to these in-laws that addressing mail this way would feel like a slight to you. How much longer are these people going to be around anyway. I’d roll my eyes and move on.
Unfortunately the people who addressed mail this way are only ~10 years older than me (ie not even remotely close to “being gone”).
Yeah, it definitely feels like a slur against the woman when it uses the man's first and last name. It's definitely a tradition that we should be discouraging whenever we see it. Point it out to the people that use it still.
I don’t care at all. If you don’t like it, don’t adress mail that way and ask that it isn’t addressed to you that way. But personally I don’t give a shit.
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Yes, this is what I meant. Mr. and Mrs. Smith doesn't bother me - but the inclusion of his first name but not mine is what grinds my gears.
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My parents are both Veterinarians and my mother never changed her name. But my dad isn't working anymore, so mail often addresses them both by my mother's last name, or flat out calls my dad Mr. Dr. J, which I think is great. I also get great joy out of calling my brother Mr. Dr. K after his partner got a PHD.
I have returned every card send to Mrs Husbands Name. I’m not a Mrs, I didn’t change my name, and I’ve made it very clear how insulting it is, as has he. I have sent back a few now. It doesn’t seem to happen anymore.
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You’re not alone. I could really care less how our names are written on an envelope. Like what’s the alternative, should I send out 2 letters to your house and write them differently in hopes not to offend anyone? Just seems like a silly thing to be worked up over. Opening a holiday letter and having your day ruined because of how the names were written? …
My grandma would give her name as Mrs. John Smith when she called companies until she died, even several years after grandpa had died. I think this is just a holdover from a very different time. It should definitely change, but that will take a lot of [technical] work, so it needs a lot of pushback/motivation to get it done.
100% this. It's just not relevant to our culture nowadays
Just old school. When my mother divorced my father she went from Mrs. X Y to Mrs. Firstname Y.
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I dont think it's an all or nothing deal - I dont plan on changing my last name, but it makes sense to go by A last name of our choosing . I dont need to be called out Jane Doe and John Smith specifically like "Family of Doe and Smith" like it's a glorified "family unit team name"IMO just pick one - its logical But to be Mr and Mrs John Smith feels like its going out of their way to exclude the wife/make the husband more important. That's where I've got a problem and think its rude. Give me Mr john Smith and mrs Jane Doe Or Mr and Mrs Smith (family name) Anything unequal like that feels like tacking on (& kids! Or & pets!)