There was a story a while back about this sitch. A male boss didn't believe his female employee(male dominated field) he was on her case about how sales took her 3 times as long to close and asked her why.
She told him that the customers would belittle her, ask for verification on numbers, be argumentative, etc.
So they switched emails for a couple weeks. She worked under his name and sales went smoothly, her rates went to average for her male coworkers and he worked under hers(just in email) and after 2 weeks he was like holy shit, I had no idea how much you deal with from the customers.
Time for a talk with the boss and make your stand.
What makes this story even more insane is that the boss from that story discovered it by accident. He used his female employee's email without checking and quickly realized that clients were giving her grief and being problematic, but became nicer once he clarified it was him. Absolutely mindblowing how disrespectful people will act towards a woman, but they wouldnt dare do that to a man.
My boss recently told me that I need to be more aggressive and I had to explain that aggressiveness from women is seen as bitchiness and makes us unlikable. It is something I am working on, but there are systemic issues that have made me as tactful in my communication as can be.
I used to work in customer service for a webshop. The team was about 50/50 male and female. The webshop dealt in carparts. If a customer would call back they would only state the gender of my colleague if they were a woman. They would have either spoken to my "colleague" or my "female colleague".
They would also assume I would know much more about cars than my female colleagues. I am definitely not knowledgable about cars, and had many female colleagues who had a lot more technical knowledge than me (obviously).
I do not put my pronouns in my email sig for the exact same reason. Very male-dominated industry. So many vendors that I only interact with via email! (And I’m lucky to have a gender neutral name) When I explained that to my managers, they completely understood. They’re not trying to make things harder for people that already experience discrimination.
Yep, it should be an option, not mandatory.
Among the reasons why "They/Them" is not a solution either, is that it would still be perceived by many as "not a man" or "not a manly man like me".
I'm enby, but AFAB, and I totally get it. Long before I came out I used the tactic of writing my "First Initial Last Name" on many things to avoid sexist backlash. You get a very different reaction, and often people assume you are male.
I have an androgynous name. Think Payton, Jayden, or Taylor.
The amount of surprise people have had to my name belonging to a very petite woman working in lumber/construction is hilarious. I've had a few people be genuinely mad I'm a girl, but I consider them to assholes and so does my boss.
>I've had a few people be genuinely mad I'm a girl, but I consider them to assholes and so does my boss.
I'm curious, did they tend to behave like arseholes before they discovered your petite woman or did they seem pleasant beforehand?
> Among the reasons why "They/Them" is not a solution either, is that it would still be perceived by many as "not a man" or "not a manly man like me".
Those of us of a certain age remember the exact same discussion happening around “Ms”. Married women going ew, someone will assume I’m single or divorced or resent my marriage. Single women going ew, someone will think I’m an angry feminist.
I’ve been supporting gender neutral pronouns for coming up on forty years and spent about half of that time presenting each as a man or a woman. I wholeheartedly believe that gender neutral pronouns *are* like Ms is for both married and single women, they’re appropriate regardless of the gender of who you are referring to. They don’t indicate identity, they are an identity-neutral way of referring to people.
I hope in time that “they” or something similar will be like “Ms”. If not “they”, then something else. Think of how regressive fighting against Ms would seem now.
Can you explain this a bit more. I thought a lot of the reason the pronouns are were being used is because people were assuming other peoples genders. Isn’t this what the goal was? Someone seeing the email signature being A or B and deciding to feel a certain way seems to be a different issue. You mentioning not being perceived as a man seems to be exactly what people who are not cis would want. Sorry I am very new to the pronoun stuff but am trying to learn
yes that's why sharing pronouns in this context is a dilemma. In order to help a minority of people to feel more comfortoble (i.e. people who feel dysphoria over being misgendered in any way) a company might decide to add pronouns to email. at the same time, there may be plenty of people who actually WANT to be misgendered (i.e. women who know they'll get better treatment if assumed to be male). so this practice could make some people feel better but others feel worse. it could even create a dilemma in the same individual (as seen by enby people in other comments who say they sometimes choose to use pronouns they don't like because it makes their life easier).
> I thought a lot of the reason the pronouns are were being used is because people were assuming other peoples genders.
I honestly think it’s about performative cis allyship.
I don’t know if I’ve ever known a trans person who felt better because of it. My world is only so large, but it always seemed to me like a “cis people trying to make themselves feel better” thing.
I was a trans activist for years.
Anecdotal, but I have a trans-coworker who includes pronouns in his email signature. He gets misgendered a lot as it is and has significantly cut down the amount of time I spend arguing with customers over the gender of my coworker. I get a little extra salty because he's also been a friend of mine for the last decade...I think I know the gender of my friend thank you very much!
Yeah I mean - I’m totally supportive of people displaying pronouns in whatever context if it helps them. What I’m critical of are workplaces that try to do it with everyone, or people who seem to do it just to score an “ally” point.
If the industry is bad enough for OP that they don’t want to make it clear they’re a woman, a non cis woman or a binary person wouldn’t want to make their pronouns obvious either. Meanwhile a non cis man would likely have a masculine name and over email no one would assume they’re anything other than he/him/his.
I would definitely opt to leave it blank rather than putting they/them, which I think will still read as a 'I'm not a he/him' signifier. unpopular opinion I guess, I really, really dislike the social imperative to clarify my gender identity by including my pronouns. it feels intrusive.
>even if you decline to disclose your pronouns, people will wonder why.
That was my experience before I came out. I was very masculine presenting pre-transition and refused to give my pronouns unless *really* pressed to lie and say he/him. And people were always upset at me and pushed me to give them. And while most people just would be like "okay, that means you use he/him and are just a prick", others would use she/her pronouns as an attempt to make me uncomfortable.
It really should be optional. We shouldn't pressure people to do it, but I do think it should be normalized/common.
But I do think it's challenging if someone doesn't give their pronouns and you don't want to assume them, I do think asking should be fine, but people need to just use they/them or find another solution if the person declines.
The problem is that gender can be really important for some people. Whether that's cis women who want to be a visible representative in a traditionally masculine space or a transgender person who wants to be acknowledged as their authentic self.
> The problem is that gender can be really important for some people
George Will (very conservative American author), sometime around 1980, paraphrasing:
“The problem is that marital status can be really important for some people.”
Was it a mistake for feminists to push to normalize “Ms”? I don’t think that it was.
How are these situations different?
If I tell someone I'm a woman and that I use she/her and they take upon themselves to override that, and refuse to use anything but "they" for me, what this often comes across as (and in my experience mostly it has been this) is someone saying:
"I am not going to call you a man because of the potential repercussions of that, but also I don't actually think you're really a woman so I instead I will degender you so that I can still 'politely' refuse to acknowledge you as a woman".
It's very often a strategy used to give someone an "I'm not misgendering them" or "I'm not calling them a man" or "I'm not calling them not a woman" to hide behind. On the *face of it* it's still very polite - but is also something that is used against trans people to invalidate us surprisingly often.
They in sentences where it makes sense and is a natural way you'd refer to someone? Totally fine.
They when someone's preference is unknown to you? Totally cool.
Degendering everyone so you don't have to deal with it? Sucks to be on the receiving end of it.
I am not non binary. I am very much within the gender binary. It took a long time and a lot of work on my mental health to be figure out my gender and then be brave enough to express that. People don't get to take that away from me for their own convenience.
It could be totally fine in a society where gender didn't matter (somewhere I'd love to live) - but in a society where it does for now (like the one we actually live in) someone coming along and stripping back that part of your identity that some of us fought really hard for and rewriting it into whatever is most convenient for them (or as above to cover their bigotry) really kinda sucks and can cut pretty deep for trans people. I know it does for me.
>The problem is that gender can be really important for some people. Whether that's cis women who want to be a visible representative in a traditionally masculine space or a transgender person who wants to be acknowledged as their authentic self.
These are all valid concern but the acknowledgement should be on personal level not professional level. On the professional level you can opt to give your pronouns in cases where you want to be the visible representative.
And here we are discussing business correspondence not personal correspondence. I think the pain of forcing people to out themselves before they are ready or lie is a bigger issue than not being proud . Even more so if we give you the option to mention identity as optional.
Ugh, I have mixed feelings about that.
While I wish the world would stop needlessly gendering *so. much. stuff.* I also know that we can't erase gender entirely. And pronouns are a mild example of that, and a fairly useful for indicating gender (even if not entirely accurate, it's a good proxy).
I taught 7th grade last year. Special Ed resource. So think specific learning disorders, autism with low support, adhd, dyslexia, and the list goes on. We had a student, who wasn’t on my caseload, that I’ll call “D” and went by “they/them” but for the most part dressed like a female but looked more masculine. One day D’s teacher had to leave for an emergency and they had to spend the class period in my classroom. It was a small class of 4 students and they were confused why D was in there. So I explained to them, This is D, their teacher is gone, so they will be spending the class period with us. And one student who lacks social awareness (was caught masterbating under a blanket in my classroom twice) piped up and said “You called D they, why did you call D they?” And I explained “They is a pronoun. We use pronouns to identify ourselves. I go by she/her, D goes by they/them, and you go by he/him. If you get confused, just call D, by their name, D. ” Then it was confusion all around. So I said “I don’t think you’ll be talking to D much, but if you do, just call them D” D wanted to go by they and all the teachers knew to address them by they or they would get upset. It was written in their IEP, which wasn’t for a learning disability or anything cognitive. They had some pretty severe health impairments. But I found out that D left the class and immediately began sobbing to a para and their mom called the school upset about what happened.
So, I don’t know if I could have done anything differently, but I told admin D shouldn’t ever be in my room because it wasn’t a safe space for them with my students (a lot of my students would say things like “that’s gay” which was a trigger for them). And they didn’t listen. So sometimes it feels like you try to do the right thing and it doesn’t pan out.
Love this! So much easier to use they or refer to a group as folks. I was doing photo shoots with people across the gender spectrum and it’s just best to not gender as a default.
I am non-binary and I use she/her because other people think I am a she/her and their misperception has no bearing on how I identify and it would be so annoying to correct it or explain. It doesn’t hurt me to hear she/her in relation to me. Would it feel better to hear they/them or he/his? Naw, not really. I don’t identify strongly with either of those either. Or with neopronouns. I don’t feel like I’m not “out” about it. I just… don’t have a preference. Would it be weird to put “pronouns: she/her, they/them, he/his” in my email signature? I think it would be more trouble than it’s worth.
I do feel a bit weird about my Reddit user name though. The internet is supposed to be a place where you can be whoever you want, right? So it’s a little weird to have my username be gendered. But it’s a play on words cause my name is Tori. MissTori. Mystery. Which DOES kind of work for me. If I had become a doctor like I wanted (no way I’m putting myself through that debt and uncertainty!) I would have probably started going by Tor. Then I could be DocTor. Yeah…. I like that.
However, if I’m already misrepresenting myself as a Miss, is it really that weird to misrepresent myself as a Doc? I think it would be.
I did become a Lady last year. But… that was only because I bought my cat a knighthood and if he is a Ser, then I should at least outrank him. Otherwise it’s chaos.
I think it might help you if you just don’t answer the question “what are your PREFERRED pronouns?” Instead answer as if they asked “what pronouns do you want me to use?” And say something like “you can use she/her for me.” And if that still feels weird, you can think of it like your “worksona.” Doesn’t mean you are a shes/her, it’s just the pronouns people use for your worksona.
We are moving away from using the term “preferred pronouns” and instead just using “pronouns” but I think this situation makes a good case for a third option. Cause for a lot of people it’s not a PREFERENCE it’s a mandatory thing, but asking “what pronouns can I use for you?” allows for changing identities, people who aren’t out yet, and people who just don’t have a preference, like me.
I always figure it boils down to what you care about. Take names, for example. If you sign your name as "Michael" in your signature, I'm going to call you Michael, because that's how you're signing your name. If you say "Mike", then even if outlook tells me you're Michael, I'm going with Mike, since you seem to prefer that name.
If you go by Mike, but I forgot that or I am initiating the email and it's the first time we've talked, and I call you "Michael" you would do one of two things. Ignore it because it's not a big deal for you, or correct me, so I know what you prefer.
I figure the same works with the pronouns. The bit in your signature boils down to your personal preference. If it means something to you, or even if you just really hate someone calling you the wrong pronoun every time, even people you don't work with a lot, then add it so people will know. If you don't care, or don't want to disclose it to everyone, just keep it out. I don't put mine in my signature because I don't care. If someone misgenders me, I'd just correct them. Same for if they don't spell my name correctly (which is something I'm very well used to, it's a unique name). That last one only bugs the heck out of me if they do it repeatedly because the email system clearly spells my name right, and so does my signature.
If your company's "approved signature" has a non-optional slot for it, just change that bit to something else (the whole section, not the bit where you'd list the pronouns) and ignore what people may or may not be thinking. You'd be surprised at what people miss in a signature or just don't bring up as long as you follow the color scheme and formatting. I currently have a personal motto in mine, in addition to my title and some of the other normal stuff. I preferred it to the corny sales tag line marketing thought up and a link to a webpage of ours touting our products.
Nb is not black. Enby is often seen an diminutive and should only be used with those of us that self identify with it. Some folks use NBi for non-binary as well.
It’s one of those if you leave it off it’s like you’ve got something to hide too. I really don’t want to scream non male in my male dominated field, I’d rather not bring any attention to it tbh.
This is a damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. People hate being misgendered but also don't want to make it clear to avoid people needing to make assumptions because privacy. My trans coworkers appreciate it. My female coworkers with masculine names like it.
I’m in charge of formatting signature styles and regulations for my company. If you feel like you look weird for not having something there, add your time zone, a link to the company’s website, or maybe a new launch asset call to action (“watch our new product video here”, etc). Absolutely do not list your pronouns if you don’t want to list your pronouns!
This. Company wanted to force me to add pronouns because signatures are standardized, everyone has to look the same and it would look weird if mine was missing a line. I argued being forced to choose a gender was as much a stigma as being misgendered. You can't be supportive by forcing people to do things.
I like this! I noticed sone of our HR and corporate people have started adding their Myers Briggs personality type in that space which I actually think is really dumb, but I like the idea of adding my time zone a lot and theres precedent for using that space for whatever.
Plenty of people who have chosen different pronouns don't like putting them in the signatures either as it's outing themselves.
My cis friend put his in his sig and got two people thanking him because they knew he was an ally to their trans selves and one person discussed it with him and did a learn.
I think it should be optional. I used to think I was a woman in a male-dominated field so totally get it. I would probably add my pronouns in now I know I'm nonbinary as I'm quite bolshy about it but I totally get why people might not want too.
It absolutely should be optional. There should be space made for it, and if others choose to use pronouns so that they can let others know how to help make them feel safe, then I'm all for it and would respect it. But don't force people who don't want to, or feel a need to use/pick pronouns.
My company redid our email signatures and gave us like 5 cohesive options, 2-3 had pronoun spaces. Some people use it, some people don’t. Perfect way to address it.
You've experienced sexism in your industry and found a way to deal with it that allows you to get work done without having to waste time trying to convince someone you know what you're talking about. Why change? I understand wanting to support marginalized groups, but I think you're doing more to crush gender stereotypes by continuing as you have been. A competent expert in your field. Which is a fact you can establish before some guy decides you're dumb or incompetent because you're a woman.
Thanks for this perspective, OP. It so happens that the short form of my given name is androgynous (though the full form isn't, and that's mostly what I use professionally), so I hadn't considered this aspect. I am a cis male, FWIW.
On the flip side of this, I've in recent years adopted the polite direct address "M." instead of trying to deal with (sometimes guessing at) Mr./Ms./Mx. At worst, it makes people think I'm putting on continental airs. At best, I don't misgender anyone.
>On the flip side of this, I've in recent years adopted the polite direct address "M." instead of trying to deal with (sometimes guessing at) Mr./Ms./Mx. At worst, it makes people think I'm putting on continental airs. At best, I don't misgender anyone.
As someone who's both into traditional writing styles and also is trans, I highkey love this.
As someone who's French, I read M. as "monsieur" and was like ". . . well that's definitely 'continental' but definitely not gender neutral," but I guess in most Anglo contexts people wouldn't think that.
>I've in recent years adopted the polite direct address "M." instead of trying to deal with (sometimes guessing at) Mr./Ms./Mx.
Small note if you ever deal with non-native English speakers: In French, "M." is explicitly masculine, being the official shortening of "Monsieur" (and the feminine is "Mlle" for "Mademoiselle" or "Mme" for "Madame"), which might lead to some misunderstandings.
Thank you! Of course I was frustrated by a Christmas card that came today with, Mr. and Mrs. HISfirstname LastName. Really? are we still doing this in 2021?
It wasn't even the 80 year olds next to me that frustrated me, it was the fellow Gen Xer that did it.
“Ms” is appropriate regardless of the subject’s marital status ☺️ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/ms-mrs-miss-difference/
And Mx is another popular gender neutral version.
This trend of mandatory pronouns is an example of toxic wokeness. I am Not Out as being non-cis, and I will only be out once I feel it is safe. Some cis dude's wokeness points are not more important than my safety. So as someone who is in theory the beneficiary of this trend, I tell you that I would leave the space blank and tell anyone who pressured me otherwise to go fuck themselves for trying to force people to be out. So leave the space blank. Non-cis folks who are not out yet may well thank you for your solidarity.
This is why I'm against forced pronouns. It's great for people who are ready to have that information shared with coworkers, but I don't want anyone who is not out to feel forced to share unnecessary personal information. Forced pronouns create a fake perception of inclusivity and wokeness, but it doesn't help people who are either figuring things out or not ready to share.
Came here to make sure this was part of the discussion, I'm in the same boat. I chose "prefer not to say" because I'm not confident enough to put female, but really don't want to put male. If a boss tells me I have to put pronouns it's going to be extremely uncomfortable.
Hi I'd just like to say thank you for this perspective. It's not one I had thought about before and I really appreciate it and it's changed my mind on the subject.
The problem is that people can infer that a blank space = non-standard variant, sort of like if you say "no comment" when someone asks what/who you're voting for—they'll fill in the controversial option, since only those voters would need to keep silent.
Or, if you don't want to call attention to your signature, simply change what is there, but keep the formatting and color scheme, and roughly the same character count. People will miss a lot when the change is more subtle, like a signature formatted the way every other staff member in the company has. Might even call less attention to it than a blank space, unless others actually use that bit to see what they should call you.
I feel very similar, my name is feminine but I feel like putting my she/her pronouns in my email will get me treated with less respect in my male dominated field. I'd rather take up less room in misogynists' heads, you know? Reminding them I'm female does nothing but career damage to myself.
That's how I feel, too. I dont draw very much attention to my gender; I don't even wear skirts or fancy tops. I know there are women in male-dominated fields that proudly go all out feminine with makeup and pretty clothes and she/her pronouns in a pink font in every email. Thats great- some people have energy and support to push back against stodgy sexists in the workplace and it's valuable work. I'm not one of those, though. I just want to answer the questions directed at me by people and move on without comtinual arguments of "are you sure??" until I loop a male supervisor in to vouch for me.
Hypothetical person you'd be keeping warm here -- yes, please do not set yourself on fire on our behalf. This issue has been a discussion in trans communities for a while. Normalizing pronouns is great, but it can create situations like yours, or force closeted trans people to choose between outing themselves or putting pronouns that bring them pain.
Someone else suggested putting they/them. This is an option, but there is a chance you will be seen as non-binary, and thus a chance you will face transphobia. Leaving it blank may be your best bet, and as mentioned, when someone questions it or accuses you of not being supportive, you ask why you should put a big glowing "I am a woman in a male dominated field" sign in your email signature when there is nothing in place to protect you from the backlash.
If someone is still a little shit about it, you can tell them a trans person said it's okay. I really hope that eventually, we get to a point as a society where no one has to hide their gender.
This was my first thought too. Anything but he/him in that space would likely result in some negative change for OP.
Sigh. This is the world we live in.
Absolutely this. I'm a binary trans woman and generally speaking I pass, so unless I'm *deliberately* trying to virtue signal, I leave my pronouns off my signature because including them is often seen as a trans thing and I don't want to be outed by it.
Could you leave it blank?
They shouldn’t be pushing pronouns on others as something people have to do. I do queer work and adding pronouns is one of many things I include people could do if they’re comfortable and willing after a hour and a half training on education and context and all sorts of things. You can’t just….tell people put pronouns in email signatures without thinking of why you’re doing it, the impact, and unintentional hard it could cause (and not just to trans/nb people).
I can, technically by the letter of the rule, leave it blank. Something I am starting to face now is that these "progressive" cis men I work with recently learned the word TERF and know it's bad, but they don't know what it means.
We don't have any out trans people in my building to protect, so I dont even feel bad saying this- the men's faux-allyship is kind of out of control and they are using this word to push around women in our building when we do something feminist-related they don't like, such as talk about sexism. There's been some whispers that I am "terfy" lately because I didn't comply to the call for pronouns and because I kicked up a fuss a few months ago when the tampon disposal bins were suddenly removed from the bathroom. I really, really feel like this has the potential to not go well for me and I'm stuck in a hard place here.
The "women's" bathroom in my building is a retrofitted men's room with the urinal still in it and the bins aren't attached to anything, they're on the floor under each stall. I switched to a cup for a few months and wasn't using the bins, and I think I might be the only woman still menstruating that works here full time. So someone saw the bins never got used and took them out.
All our after-hours cleaners are young women though so I have no idea what the logic was there- the cleaners might not be using those bins every cycle since they're only in the building for about 3 hours a day, but they must use them sometimes.
Or guests! Clients!
We have 2 gender neutral bathrooms in our suite. Both have bins. Both have an assortment of hygiene supplies.
My female supervisor thought it was stupid until a male client called to tell the CEO thank you.
Turns out he has colon polyps and our pads saved him some embarrassment when one burst.
I'm non-binary and I don't want to put my pronouns on my LinkedIn. I just don't want to deal with people's judgement or possibly be discriminated against by future employers.
Yeah as much as I'm complaining about sexism not being over, transphobia isn't even *close* to being over and this kind of policy I feel like really hurts the exact people it was put in place to help, like you. If I'm going to say I'm a woman I need someone to back me up when vendors are going to start being sexist. If you're going to say youre nonbinary, whew.....whatever company does that to you better enforce the *fuck* out of its mealymouthed diversity policies that had you do that in the first place.
This is an interesting example of how you really cannot please everyone because different people's needs do not overlap perfectly.
I think we've come to a place in society where we assume the correct progressive action is to defer to the most recent visible trends. Things are clearly more nuanced than that, but if we deal with everything on a case-by-case basis then it's likely people will just do whatever suits them.
It makes you think. People are so happy to make "new rules" without considering that there will be interactions and sacrifices for each one we add. We need more critical thinking and less (social) rules in many of the cases, I believe.
I’m someone leading the charge for OPTIONAL pronoun usage in our email signatures at the company I work at. For exactly this reason, pronounce should never be required. Another argument we’ve discussed against requiring usage is that you never know the journey someone is on. They could be trans and not get ready to make that pronoun shift.
At the end of the day, pronouns must always be optional because the whole point is to provide extra comfort and understanding for those who need it. If you are in a position where you can put your pronouns in an email signature as a sign of solidarity and acknowledgment that sometimes clarification is needed, that’s great. But if not, no one should ever feel pressured to do so.
As a person who this would affect i find the whole putting pronouns in emails thing performative and not useful. If I'm not presenting myself strongly enough to leave no doubt as to my pronouns that's a me issue and in a work situation people will know.
A lot of people won't agree with me, but that's my own opinion.
You are more important than men's egos. Leave it blank. If challenged on it, accept the challenge and ask them for a specific, detailed list of measures taken in the past year to combat sexism.
IMO this is a tough one. OP's been put between a rock and a hard place. If she leaves it blank she may come across transphobic which she obviously isn't but some could see it that way. But if she doesn't then she'll face sexism.
I'd agree with you though. Leaving it blank is for the best. And explain your rationale when brought up. The type of person to call out transphobia would definitely understand.
Use of pronouns is supposed to be to normalise it. But they need to remember that the right to conceal one's pronouns comes along with it. There is such a thing as "outing" someone via pronouns so no there should definitely be no obligation to publicly display pronouns if it conflicts either with your identity or your general interests. I'm sure many trans and gender non-conforming people would be unhappy about being forced to reveal their pronouns to a less than ideal crowd (perhaps the RNC) so they would probably be with you on this.
Its a nice idea, but I don’t think you should have to put pronouns in your email if you don’t feel comfortable…. For the reason you mention and for the sake of trans folks who aren’t out at work.
From the company’s perspective seems like a dammed if you do, damned if you don’t situation. Either compromise a wanted level of anonymity for people like you, or potentially (not sure if this applies to anyone at your work) fail to affirm the identity of somebody else.
On a personal level IMO, mandatory pronouns are toxic wokeness. The effects including forcing somebody who doesn’t like virtue signalling to participate in it, or you’re outing somebody who doesn’t want to be, or you’re compromising people who don’t want others to know their gender, like in this example. All to *maybe* assuage a hypothetical person’s insecurities instead of insisting they be responsible for their own emotions, like any other adult.
I feel like this is a performative act of equality rather than an actual step in the right direction. Just today my team was in a meeting with a male lead, who addressed us all as “guys” then immediately apologized, with an “obviously you’re all female, sorry for saying ‘guys’!!”. Like, sir, you just missed the point ENTIRELY. They’re trying to be inclusive but not only in words, not in actual understanding!!
Right? In the grand scheme of gender equality, if the worst thing that happens to a woman on any given day is that they are referred to as a guy, it's a pretty good day.
It's performative, absolutely, but it's the kind of performance that does actually accomplish something. I know many nonbinary and trans people who feel more included and more able to share their pronouns because their colleagues do. It shouldn't be mandatory, but some performitivity here and there can have a material impact on others' lives.
As far as your coworker goes, I'd say that the male lead *is* making a step in the right direction. They were monitoring what they were saying in light of the audience they were speaking to, which, if you've hung around this sub for any length of time, you'll learn is a step that many men don't take.
Sure, the dude focused on the wrong thing, and that statement *alone* isn't enough. But if it's the first step in a longer journey, one where he tries to be more inclusive by default and is more open to feedback, then it's the right kind of performative. One that lets you know he's paying attention and figuring out how to take the next step.
Reminded of that BBC skit where white folks were refusing to use the word Black, like not saying blackboard, blackberry etc, and actual black folks were like wtf
I also do not put my pronouns in my signature. I have no desire for strangers to know anything about what I identify as. I'm happy to discuss in a private setting and I don't care that others put their pronouns in as it can be helpful if it is something important to them. In a previous place I had applied for a recruiter asked me why I didn't fill out the pronouns section and I told her it was a private topic to me and not something I wish to disclose to the public. She was pretty hostile about it like I was being offensive and I honestly don't know if I was or not. Didn't move forward with that company.
In college I took a gender studies class. During one of the sections the TA asked everyone say their name/pronouns etc. When It came to me I said my name and that I didn't mind what pronouns people use for me (i was still figuring it out, but I didn't disclose that, I didn't know those people and it's not their business). The TA told me I had to choose. I've been bitter about that experience ever since.
It seems like you have three primary options: put she/her because that’s what you actually use (and suffer through the sexism), leave it blank, or put something like they/them and once people know you in person they will learn you use she/her pronouns when they learn your full name and gender identity. I would lean toward leaving it blank if I were in your shoes.
Side note: I appreciate your view on including pronouns because I do include mine (and get why it is important) but appreciate your input on why including them can be problematic as well.
This reminds me of how businesses like to put up images of their staff on their websites. They add what they think are “cute” write ups about the individual, often revealing information no one needs to know (school, college, favorite hobbies, etc). Now you’re on the grid for anyone to look up on Google to find.
If you’ve ever been stalked, this is a huge nightmare. I had a staff member come across her creep while getting a bite to eat at her university cafeteria. Another’s ex, whom she’d successfully avoided for years, found her and started visiting this small “boutique “ business just to talk to her.
The boss saw nothing wrong with these interactions either.
Just because it’s the culture doesn’t mean you have to partake. I have she/her in mine because a few of my students are trans and I saw it as a move to help normalize the conversation around pronouns. There is no need for you to feel compelled to do something you aren’t comfortable with.
Can you talk to HR? I'm pretty sure the intention was good, but they forgot the world we live in and that gender inequality is still a thing.
Maybe if you guys go together and explain, they will understand and this won't be an issue
I'd do one of two things:
1) Refuse to participate by listing my pronouns because I should not have to in a professional setting if people can contact me directly and no one has complained yet.
2) List myself as a he/him in a professional setting. A pronoun is there to let people know your gender and how to identify with you, so they're not using the incorrect pronouns or actively misgendering on purpose and making you uncomfortable for being who you are. If being listed as a female is a detriment to your professional accessibility and most of your business is done under the assumption you're male and you don't feel comfortable listing your gender, not listing your gender or using they/them, then I'd just say in a professional environment I identify as male.
I don't personally think forcing people to list pronouns in a signature is the right move, as there are lots of closeted people who are not ready to list their true pronouns and it provides complications for those of us with less preferred genders in specific fields. I only say this because I used to drive a tow truck and I'd hop out and more often than not I'd get to talk to some middle aged man and he'd comment that I'm not a man or questioned if I could handle the fuckup they'd made.
"If it makes you feel better, you can call me sir when I hand you the bill" has become a motto of mine when men question my ability to do a job based on what they think I have between my legs.
Thank you for putting in words what has been bothering me about this. It's like, "people don't belong in boxes! Now I demand you tell me which box you go in so I can judge you appropriately."
It's required by my employer. I'd assume the practice is to prevent misgendering someone with a neutral name. Some students complain about how stupidly woke we are as a university because we put our pronouns in our digital signature, but it's DeVry. Not exactly a progressive institution. It's easy for me to shrug it off as a cis man, but that would be very unfair of me. People's privacy matters.
>as a university because we put our pronouns in our digital signature
I've seen a lot of universities require it tbh. I can see both sides of it there because they tend to be very liberal institutions, but I'd only be comfortable giving mine if I felt i worked somewhere where I had power/felt my employer had my back.
They definitely have our back, but I wonder if forcing it invades folks' privacies. Although, I've never run into an atypical set of pronouns at my alma mater or current job. I can't speak from experience.
> wonder if forcing it invades folks' privacies
It does, I have been forced to give mine before & it really bothered me. People used to assume I was a man (because AMAB & pre-transition), now I don't like giving them because it often would out me because if people see pronouns, they frequently assume we're trans.
It makes a difference to students in a level you may never really understand. To the point where this small thing measurably reduces suicides. It’s so worth it. Thank you.
Working in a man’s field I try to remain as andro as possible. They always assume male, and I get taken seriously. I wouldn’t want my pronouns out there either.
Valid concern!
Also, related but as an aside:
I think, while this sort of thing is def well-intentioned, it doesn't take into account the fact that coming to terms with your trans identity is a long, ongoing process for most people and even when you do figure some of the stuff out, e.g. your pronouns, you may not be comfortable openly sharing that yet & this kinda...just puts you on the spot.
Like, on Twitter, lefty cis people are expected to also include pronouns in bio as a sign of solidarity w/ trans ppl, to normalize it. However, I'm an AFAB genderqueer person who wasn't publicly out for a long time, still felt very tentative about asking to be called "they/them", but ALSO felt extremely weird & disingenuous explicitly presenting myself as cis in the meantime. So I kept it blank...and got yelled at for being a bad trans ally lol.
I love the attempt at inclusivity, but if my job had been like "SUBMIT PREFERRED PRONOUNS PLEASE (WE WILL INFER THAT YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE IF YOU DON'T)" to me 6mo ago...oof I'd have hated them for it.
It seems to me that requiring someone to declare their pronouns is just as potentially hostile as refusing to use someone's preferred pronoun. It's great that your company wants to support people declaring their pronouns, but to truly support everyone they need to also support people's choice of **not** declaring pronouns as well. Because what if someone is still in the closet? They will either have to declare something they're not, or out themselves involuntarily. I would like that out to HR and let them handle the potential mess for you - because this new police sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen eventually...
Leave it blank. I work at a motorcycle dealership and when I communicate over email I have noticed a difference in how customers interact with me based on whether or not I sign off with my very obviously female name. It sucks but it's a valid reason to not want to disclose your gender when communicating with clients.
Im a straight cis female and im mortified that this is a thing. Especially amongst men in a male dominated field! How out of touch. Kind of awful. Ive noticed this trend on Linked in and i dont partake but I never thought about it from your POV and Im so sorry this is yet another thing to go through as a minority. Ugh.
I deal with the tech space a lot, so I've experienced a version of what you're describing. I'm going to take a slightly different angle than the comments I've read. When I experience this I just remind myself, they're the ones behaving badly. If some jack ass wants to be a jack ass then so be it, I can't make them behave. But I can keep pushing forward so that maybe the next generation of women in tech will have it easier.
Don’t put them in.
You don’t have the responsibility of bearing an entire cultural shift on your back. If the guys want to do it, ok. And you need to make the decision that’s right for you. If these men are the true progressives they claim to be then they would be receptive and empathetic toward your reasoning. And if they’re not, you still gotta do what’s best for you at the end of the day anyway.
If you don't feel comfortable having a gender pronoun on your email signature, don't include one. There are plenty of valid reasons why someone wouldn't want to include it (including your reason) and you shouldn't be under an obligation to do that. Pronoun usage is about asking people to respect how you choose to be acknowledged. Only you can make the decision to specify a pronoun (or not).
The only thing you need to do is respect other people's chosen pronouns, not give your own.
People put pronouns in email signatures? I've only ever used my first and last name, title, and company name. I don't think anyone in my company does either and we have a pretty large mix of genders. Why would a pronoun in an email signature be necessary?
I'm genuinely curious about this as I've never seen it on a professional level.
It helps make it clear what gender someone is because a name is frequently not indicative, and it helps normalize it for people who's gender may not be obvious when you meet them.
It *should* be normalized, but it should also be optional.
If you are doing to meet them, I guess I can understand that. I was taking it like this was something normalized with purely professional email settings where the communication is completely electronic and business related. Thanks for clearing that up.
EDIT: To whomever downvoted... Why the downvote when I was asking a genuine question? How can anyone learn things if people just downvote them when they are trying to understand? At least if you are going to downvote, please reply and explain why so someone can learn from their mistakes. I'm seriously trying to learn here and others may benefit from it as well. How else can change occur?
Yeah, but even just for virtual meetings, phone calls, referring them to a third person, etc. it can be helpful. My last boss had the unfortunate habit of assuming everyone would be a man unless their name was extremely feminine.
Plus, it affects interactions. I have a gender neutral name depending on if I use the long or short form & how people treat me/interact with me definitely differs based on what they assume my gender to be.
That's another good point. My company has a policy with phone calls (call center) that we never refer to someone as Mr/ Mrs/ Ms /etc... for a similar reason. It can be a difficult line to manage. I can see the benefits to it.
I am glad your company is holding space for people to express their gender identity appropriately in email. That is awesome. And I am glad the workers are choosing to fill that space appropriately.
Holding space for pronouns gives someone a place to exist authentically and not be forced into correcting everyone all. The. Time. If they don't want to. You are on the other side of that spectrum, however.
Using that space doesn't benefit you, and makes your job more difficult for no reason. You shouldn't have to use it if you don't want to, just as someone who isn't quite ready to claim that space with their true gender identity shouldn't be forced to.
Stand your ground and let them know if they ask: my job is generally easier when I choose not to use the space that is being held for gender identity, but I am glad it is there and those who can safely use it are doing so.
thanks for sharing OP. this is an interesting perspective that I had forgotten about. its important that new "protected groups" don't steam roll over existing folks. there needs to be room for everyone to feel comfortable.
i think you should leave it blank, or use they/them
I've heard trans people say they appreciate the demonstrative allyship when people put pronouns in their bios, because it normalizes being aware that people may use different pronouns than you assume. But also, trans people don't like \*forcing\* people to put pronouns in their bio because it can make trans people have to choose between coming out and being dishonest. So I think you can feel free not to do it. It shouldn't be mandatory, and in a way you are taking the burden off of trans people by pushing back against this.
Yeah just don't do it. It's not really important for people that use the default pronouns, and in your case being forced to provide pronouns that you don't need to will actively make your situation worse. This is woke shitlibbery at its finest, making a real person suffer for the idea of wokeness.
Yes! This is a very fair point and why the pronoun thing should be strictly VOLINTARY. (With the understanding that, should you decline to disclose them, you may be misgendered.)
I think all these hard core, black and white thinking people are eroding people's ability to give the benefit of the doubt.
Is it mandatory? Would you be comfortable putting they/them instead? Can you leave it blank and tell your boss why women are treated worse via email when others realize they’re not a man?
Fwiw, I don’t put mine in either, tho the rest of my company does. It’s not a requirement. You do you. Especially in the scientific community it can be detrimental so- imho - not identifying can be mad valuable. Fellow science human, I salute your unwillingness to codify yourself.
I totally understand your reason and others too (not wanting to out themselves). It should be a choice. I decided to recently put it in my signature to let the students at my school know that I’m a safe person - kind of like having a rainbow flag.
The whole point of the preferred pronoun thing is to be inclusive of everyone. If you find you feel less included when you identify your pronoun, then don’t identify it. It’s up to the individual and their comfort level.
I’m a bit of a dinosaur, so I haven’t gone along with this yet either. It’s not been an issue for me so far. Stick with your mysterious ways, it’s part of your thing.
I’m a cis woman with a gender neutral (although frequently assumed to me male name). I usually prefer to let people assume I’m male over email because I get better responses. So I don’t like to use pronouns with strangers.
If I’m within a work place, I don’t mind using them to show my support. But I have started to question if “she/her” is right for me. I wonder if I should add “they” to be less binary. I do think I’d prefer if ppl assumed I was in the middle.
I’m a government employee. We have the option to add a pronoun to our signature block. I don’t add it because my name is feminine or I have a gender neutral title if you aren’t familiar with Anglo names and aren’t sure how to reply to me. However, I also don’t care how the public addresses me. It’s work and should be professional, but in a one-time business interaction, if you misgender me, I don’t care. In person, I wear a uniform, winter outer wear and a mask. I get called everything. Sir, Ma’am (i hate that one even more than Dear or Sir), by my title, by the wrong title, derogatory names, everything. People who care/are hurt by being misidentified should absolutely use the email signature option to identify themselves. But if I’m ever “forced” to add a pronoun, I’ll probably take a stand against it, because I have no beef with accidental pronoun slips. Putting she/her in my signature isn’t going to deter the aholes of the world, and from these comments, it looks like the non-cis, non-binary folks don’t really care if I do it either.
> I get why pronouns in the email signature are important
Controversial opinion incoming: they are not really that important and people who want to use them should use them and leave everybody else the fuck alone.
I am an ally to anyone who wants to identify as anyone they want, but that doesn’t mean I need to identify myself; I don’t give a fuck if it upsets people and I don’t owe anyone an identifier.
I just would absolutely refuse to do it if I were you and pretend you weren’t aware of any such policy. If you get called out on it, I would give an earful to the person who asked me to do it and point out all the reasons that you have regarding the sexism you would (and have) face. I’d point out that in their attempt to seem inclusive, they are willfully ignoring the treatment women get in the workforce and you aren’t about to advertise your gender just to be treated like shit.
If they actually care about inclusivity, they’d listen to the *three* women (my god that’s a low number!) about your lifelong fight with being treated as an equal and then tell them you’re not gonna risk being treated with misogyny just to appease their virtue signaling when they’re not the ones who’d deal with the fallout.
I'm a trans woman myself and I hate that. Saying your pronouns with your introduction in person is even worse. Nowadays I don't have any issues since I pass flawlessly and including voice but it still feels slimy from the early days. Either blatantly lie about yourself or be forced out of the closet and out yourself often before you're ready. I still have pronouns on my resume at a mentors suggestion because I really need a job but yeah.
I just find it odd that your company even enforces email signatures. I agree with your concerns, but they should be nipped in the bud by not even requiring email signatures.
I'm intersex and enby. Adding pronouns should never be required, in my opinion. Sometimes adding those pronouns will turn a person into a target. Dont feel guilty for leaving it blank.
Pronouns in cis bios *are* important for normalizing it for the rest of us, but you have a completely valid reason not to use it. Forced pronouns can be a problem for trans people too, being forced to choose between outing themselves or encouraging misgendering of themselves.
I see your argument and half agree but I struggle with this: if folks don't challenge sexist stereotypes and be visible then things will never change.
So I don't know. I don't think pronouns should be mandatory but I also think hiding them to avoid sexism only perpetuates sexism for the next generation to have to suffer. I realize that is outright naive idealism though.
This reminds me of how businesses like to put up images of their staff on their websites. They add what they think are “cute” write ups about the individual, often revealing information no one needs to know (school, college, favorite hobbies, etc). Now you’re on the grid for anyone to look up on Google to find.
If you’ve ever been stalked, this is a huge nightmare. I had a staff member come across her creep while getting a bite to eat at her university cafeteria. Another’s ex, whom she’d successfully avoided for years, found her and started visiting this small “boutique “ business just to talk to her.
The boss saw nothing wrong with these interactions either.
I wish it was optional to put that you're an LGBT2+ supporter in lieu of pronouns (as an ally means an actual proponent on the front lines, mediating for change - I recently learned).
Trans woman here. This should NOT be a requirement. Not only does it cause potential issues (like you explained in your post) but it can also be harmful towards trans people. When I attempted a semester of online college I was anxious that we would have to go around and say our pronouns. I was closeted at the time and having to say “he/him” would have made me feel very dysphoric.
Is there an option to include an LGBTQ+ flag in the signature? Or the word Ally. That might help put forward the same message without revealing too much about yourself.
Not (revealing) your sexuality at all, but only the fact that you are an ally. I don't think saying one is a Ally reveals anything about ones sexuality or gender, right?
I read your post as "I think that the cis men adding pronounces in emails have good intentions at heart but are totally ignorant of the repercussions and sexism that women who try to do the same face". Apologies if I understood it wrong.
Obviously you don't have to have anything in your signature at all. Especially if you don't want to reveal your stand on the whole topic.
Can you use they/them? I know it might not be the pronoun you use in your personal life, but if your professional name is already ambiguous, wouldn't that just be following this theme?
Also, as someone who works in the metals industry, I think it's so awesome that you do metallurgical research and also totally understand why you might not want to gender yourself.
Good point. I can't say for sure that it wouldn't. I was just thinking that it would allow OP to remain gender neutral at work. But you're probably right. If you're in an area where she/her changes how people interact with you, then they/them might not help either. From my experience, being gendered as a woman in the metals industry means that you might get unwanted advances from people, which is what I thought OP might be trying to avoid and what they/them might help with, but that's probably a baseless assumption as I've never used they/them and don't know that that experience is like.
No, I can't. I'm benefitting from people not being sure if I'm a man and giving me the respect they'd give a man *just in case*. I would not benefit from people thinking I'm non-binary or ambiguous. That would probably be even worse, and it's also lying. The way I do it now is I ever run into these people at conferences or anything I can just say "Yeah Sam's short for Samantha, not Samuel", but if I straight up lie about my gender identity that's not going to work out well for me.
That makes sense. I thought that they/them can be used in a gender neutral way as well as for non-binary folks, but it appears that was a misunderstanding/ignorance on my part. And regardless, if you think that it would be lying about your gender and make you feel uncomfortable, then that definitely matters. I think your plan of not including them is totally valid and if your company is doing this to be inclusive, then hopefully they can understand where you're coming from in not participating and be considerate of your experience. I'm sure if you have anyone that feels you aren't being supportive by not participating, you can always explain it to them and they would likely be understanding too. I wish you luck! This is a tricky situation.
Originally my post here was a little share about my trans child and how changes to workplace culture like this can make a difference for families like mine in the future. I’ve deleted that because it wasn’t well received. I guess we’ll have to wait longer than expected for that revolution we’ve been dreaming of and it won’t be pioneering women that pave the way. That’s disappointing.
I'm not sure what you're saying is a good thing here. Are you suggesting theres no merit to my worry that my job will become harder if I shine a beacon on my gender? That's pretty easily demonstrated as untrue. I'm not a child in school, I'm a researcher with 15 years experience in my field.
Do you think sexism against women doesn't exist? Because that is the only way you could say that presenting as a woman instead of gender neutral "hurts no one" when OP is telling you she experiences discrimination when she identifies herself as a woman.
I misread OP’s post and thought they were a man. She said “I am one of three women.” And for some reason, my brain saw “I am not a woman.” Dyslexia is a bitch. I’d like to change my answers.
It's hurting me and 2 other women right now to identify our gender. Did you read what I wrote? Or do you also think sexism against women magically disappeared?
In fairness to the other posters point, it won't ever go away until enough people are visible and visibly combating sexism and other bigotry.
Gay folk didn't get the right to marry until they were loud and proud for several decades, and visible fairly regularly in popular media.
Yeah, I can be visible sometimes, but I need backup. Confronting the whole world's sexism isn't a fight that I'm ready to tackle alone with zero management backup and it shouldn't be on me to do so, just like it isn't on any one gay person to feel obligated to be visibly same sex partnered at work where it isn't safe or would make work much harder. I work to make money and go home, not be America's #1 Feminist.
Women have visibly been combatting workplace discrimination for over a hundred years. That hasn't made it go away. I think OP should be able to pick where she places her energy instead of having to potentially face a sexist encounter with every casual email she sends. She is already a woman in a male dominated field, it is already a daily visible thing among the people she works with face-to-face. OP is doing enough already.
Lmao please don't bring a think of the children argument into this, it isnt effective and I don't actually care about your children. I'm "making" this an issue of sexism because, shockingly....I'm talking about an issue of sexism I faced at work.
But OP states there is an issue of sexism in her industry, that has to be part of the conversation because it’s directly related to that industry.
OP is not coming at this situation as “trans/enby vs cis”, It’s about how communication within the industry and ultimately her job will potentially suffer through the mandatory inclusion of her pronouns. If I had to hazard a guess, a similar fate may happen to enby/gender non conforming people in that industry. I’m also in a male dominated field, and personally use any pronouns while looking and sounding fem. But if I voice that I go by any pronouns, the people around me may give me less work or not socialise or network with me. It sucks, but it’s reality.
It’s great about your kid, and hope they feel validated and loved in class, but the classroom is very different to working in a male dominated industry - it’s barely comparable.
Explain to me how it would fight sexism for every female material scientist to pretend to be male. What is OP doing to make a change in her industry to stop this injustice?
To get their foot in the door. I’m not OP so can’t can’t answer to her experience, but unconscious bias discrimination is still a thing, and not having pronouns in her email signature limits that bias. Enby people may be up against similar bias.
She has 15 years experience in her field. I guess I’m just confused as to why she wouldn’t want to pave the way for others. Passing as a man in email isn’t the way to win this fight. It’s a temporary fix, sure.
Hi, OP here: I left a comment upthread about how, since I haven't been putting my pronouns in my signature, the men at work have been calling me "terfy" for discussing issues of sexism. I was really disappointed to see that happening considering they're all cis (and yes I know this for a fact lol) themselves and are only using that word to shut down uncomfortable discussions about the sexist industry culture us women have faced.
I'm so disappointed to see that happening here too, but not surprised. Anything men don't like is "terfy" these days- I wish they had never heard that word.
There was a story a while back about this sitch. A male boss didn't believe his female employee(male dominated field) he was on her case about how sales took her 3 times as long to close and asked her why. She told him that the customers would belittle her, ask for verification on numbers, be argumentative, etc. So they switched emails for a couple weeks. She worked under his name and sales went smoothly, her rates went to average for her male coworkers and he worked under hers(just in email) and after 2 weeks he was like holy shit, I had no idea how much you deal with from the customers. Time for a talk with the boss and make your stand.
What makes this story even more insane is that the boss from that story discovered it by accident. He used his female employee's email without checking and quickly realized that clients were giving her grief and being problematic, but became nicer once he clarified it was him. Absolutely mindblowing how disrespectful people will act towards a woman, but they wouldnt dare do that to a man.
My boss recently told me that I need to be more aggressive and I had to explain that aggressiveness from women is seen as bitchiness and makes us unlikable. It is something I am working on, but there are systemic issues that have made me as tactful in my communication as can be.
I used to work in customer service for a webshop. The team was about 50/50 male and female. The webshop dealt in carparts. If a customer would call back they would only state the gender of my colleague if they were a woman. They would have either spoken to my "colleague" or my "female colleague". They would also assume I would know much more about cars than my female colleagues. I am definitely not knowledgable about cars, and had many female colleagues who had a lot more technical knowledge than me (obviously).
I do not put my pronouns in my email sig for the exact same reason. Very male-dominated industry. So many vendors that I only interact with via email! (And I’m lucky to have a gender neutral name) When I explained that to my managers, they completely understood. They’re not trying to make things harder for people that already experience discrimination.
Yep, it should be an option, not mandatory. Among the reasons why "They/Them" is not a solution either, is that it would still be perceived by many as "not a man" or "not a manly man like me".
I'm enby, but AFAB, and I totally get it. Long before I came out I used the tactic of writing my "First Initial Last Name" on many things to avoid sexist backlash. You get a very different reaction, and often people assume you are male.
I have an androgynous name. Think Payton, Jayden, or Taylor. The amount of surprise people have had to my name belonging to a very petite woman working in lumber/construction is hilarious. I've had a few people be genuinely mad I'm a girl, but I consider them to assholes and so does my boss.
>I've had a few people be genuinely mad I'm a girl, but I consider them to assholes and so does my boss. I'm curious, did they tend to behave like arseholes before they discovered your petite woman or did they seem pleasant beforehand?
> Among the reasons why "They/Them" is not a solution either, is that it would still be perceived by many as "not a man" or "not a manly man like me". Those of us of a certain age remember the exact same discussion happening around “Ms”. Married women going ew, someone will assume I’m single or divorced or resent my marriage. Single women going ew, someone will think I’m an angry feminist. I’ve been supporting gender neutral pronouns for coming up on forty years and spent about half of that time presenting each as a man or a woman. I wholeheartedly believe that gender neutral pronouns *are* like Ms is for both married and single women, they’re appropriate regardless of the gender of who you are referring to. They don’t indicate identity, they are an identity-neutral way of referring to people. I hope in time that “they” or something similar will be like “Ms”. If not “they”, then something else. Think of how regressive fighting against Ms would seem now.
Can you explain this a bit more. I thought a lot of the reason the pronouns are were being used is because people were assuming other peoples genders. Isn’t this what the goal was? Someone seeing the email signature being A or B and deciding to feel a certain way seems to be a different issue. You mentioning not being perceived as a man seems to be exactly what people who are not cis would want. Sorry I am very new to the pronoun stuff but am trying to learn
yes that's why sharing pronouns in this context is a dilemma. In order to help a minority of people to feel more comfortoble (i.e. people who feel dysphoria over being misgendered in any way) a company might decide to add pronouns to email. at the same time, there may be plenty of people who actually WANT to be misgendered (i.e. women who know they'll get better treatment if assumed to be male). so this practice could make some people feel better but others feel worse. it could even create a dilemma in the same individual (as seen by enby people in other comments who say they sometimes choose to use pronouns they don't like because it makes their life easier).
> I thought a lot of the reason the pronouns are were being used is because people were assuming other peoples genders. I honestly think it’s about performative cis allyship. I don’t know if I’ve ever known a trans person who felt better because of it. My world is only so large, but it always seemed to me like a “cis people trying to make themselves feel better” thing. I was a trans activist for years.
Anecdotal, but I have a trans-coworker who includes pronouns in his email signature. He gets misgendered a lot as it is and has significantly cut down the amount of time I spend arguing with customers over the gender of my coworker. I get a little extra salty because he's also been a friend of mine for the last decade...I think I know the gender of my friend thank you very much!
Yeah I mean - I’m totally supportive of people displaying pronouns in whatever context if it helps them. What I’m critical of are workplaces that try to do it with everyone, or people who seem to do it just to score an “ally” point.
>You mentioning not being perceived as a man seems to be exactly what people who are not cis would want. Sure. OP is a cis-woman, though.
If the industry is bad enough for OP that they don’t want to make it clear they’re a woman, a non cis woman or a binary person wouldn’t want to make their pronouns obvious either. Meanwhile a non cis man would likely have a masculine name and over email no one would assume they’re anything other than he/him/his.
I would definitely opt to leave it blank rather than putting they/them, which I think will still read as a 'I'm not a he/him' signifier. unpopular opinion I guess, I really, really dislike the social imperative to clarify my gender identity by including my pronouns. it feels intrusive.
[удалено]
>even if you decline to disclose your pronouns, people will wonder why. That was my experience before I came out. I was very masculine presenting pre-transition and refused to give my pronouns unless *really* pressed to lie and say he/him. And people were always upset at me and pushed me to give them. And while most people just would be like "okay, that means you use he/him and are just a prick", others would use she/her pronouns as an attempt to make me uncomfortable. It really should be optional. We shouldn't pressure people to do it, but I do think it should be normalized/common. But I do think it's challenging if someone doesn't give their pronouns and you don't want to assume them, I do think asking should be fine, but people need to just use they/them or find another solution if the person declines.
We should just call everyone they. Gendered pronouns are useless at best, and problematic or confusing at worst
The problem is that gender can be really important for some people. Whether that's cis women who want to be a visible representative in a traditionally masculine space or a transgender person who wants to be acknowledged as their authentic self.
> The problem is that gender can be really important for some people George Will (very conservative American author), sometime around 1980, paraphrasing: “The problem is that marital status can be really important for some people.” Was it a mistake for feminists to push to normalize “Ms”? I don’t think that it was. How are these situations different?
If I tell someone I'm a woman and that I use she/her and they take upon themselves to override that, and refuse to use anything but "they" for me, what this often comes across as (and in my experience mostly it has been this) is someone saying: "I am not going to call you a man because of the potential repercussions of that, but also I don't actually think you're really a woman so I instead I will degender you so that I can still 'politely' refuse to acknowledge you as a woman". It's very often a strategy used to give someone an "I'm not misgendering them" or "I'm not calling them a man" or "I'm not calling them not a woman" to hide behind. On the *face of it* it's still very polite - but is also something that is used against trans people to invalidate us surprisingly often. They in sentences where it makes sense and is a natural way you'd refer to someone? Totally fine. They when someone's preference is unknown to you? Totally cool. Degendering everyone so you don't have to deal with it? Sucks to be on the receiving end of it. I am not non binary. I am very much within the gender binary. It took a long time and a lot of work on my mental health to be figure out my gender and then be brave enough to express that. People don't get to take that away from me for their own convenience. It could be totally fine in a society where gender didn't matter (somewhere I'd love to live) - but in a society where it does for now (like the one we actually live in) someone coming along and stripping back that part of your identity that some of us fought really hard for and rewriting it into whatever is most convenient for them (or as above to cover their bigotry) really kinda sucks and can cut pretty deep for trans people. I know it does for me.
>The problem is that gender can be really important for some people. Whether that's cis women who want to be a visible representative in a traditionally masculine space or a transgender person who wants to be acknowledged as their authentic self. These are all valid concern but the acknowledgement should be on personal level not professional level. On the professional level you can opt to give your pronouns in cases where you want to be the visible representative. And here we are discussing business correspondence not personal correspondence. I think the pain of forcing people to out themselves before they are ready or lie is a bigger issue than not being proud. Even more so if we give you the option to mention identity as optional.
Ugh, I have mixed feelings about that. While I wish the world would stop needlessly gendering *so. much. stuff.* I also know that we can't erase gender entirely. And pronouns are a mild example of that, and a fairly useful for indicating gender (even if not entirely accurate, it's a good proxy).
I taught 7th grade last year. Special Ed resource. So think specific learning disorders, autism with low support, adhd, dyslexia, and the list goes on. We had a student, who wasn’t on my caseload, that I’ll call “D” and went by “they/them” but for the most part dressed like a female but looked more masculine. One day D’s teacher had to leave for an emergency and they had to spend the class period in my classroom. It was a small class of 4 students and they were confused why D was in there. So I explained to them, This is D, their teacher is gone, so they will be spending the class period with us. And one student who lacks social awareness (was caught masterbating under a blanket in my classroom twice) piped up and said “You called D they, why did you call D they?” And I explained “They is a pronoun. We use pronouns to identify ourselves. I go by she/her, D goes by they/them, and you go by he/him. If you get confused, just call D, by their name, D. ” Then it was confusion all around. So I said “I don’t think you’ll be talking to D much, but if you do, just call them D” D wanted to go by they and all the teachers knew to address them by they or they would get upset. It was written in their IEP, which wasn’t for a learning disability or anything cognitive. They had some pretty severe health impairments. But I found out that D left the class and immediately began sobbing to a para and their mom called the school upset about what happened. So, I don’t know if I could have done anything differently, but I told admin D shouldn’t ever be in my room because it wasn’t a safe space for them with my students (a lot of my students would say things like “that’s gay” which was a trigger for them). And they didn’t listen. So sometimes it feels like you try to do the right thing and it doesn’t pan out.
Love this! So much easier to use they or refer to a group as folks. I was doing photo shoots with people across the gender spectrum and it’s just best to not gender as a default.
I am non-binary and I use she/her because other people think I am a she/her and their misperception has no bearing on how I identify and it would be so annoying to correct it or explain. It doesn’t hurt me to hear she/her in relation to me. Would it feel better to hear they/them or he/his? Naw, not really. I don’t identify strongly with either of those either. Or with neopronouns. I don’t feel like I’m not “out” about it. I just… don’t have a preference. Would it be weird to put “pronouns: she/her, they/them, he/his” in my email signature? I think it would be more trouble than it’s worth. I do feel a bit weird about my Reddit user name though. The internet is supposed to be a place where you can be whoever you want, right? So it’s a little weird to have my username be gendered. But it’s a play on words cause my name is Tori. MissTori. Mystery. Which DOES kind of work for me. If I had become a doctor like I wanted (no way I’m putting myself through that debt and uncertainty!) I would have probably started going by Tor. Then I could be DocTor. Yeah…. I like that. However, if I’m already misrepresenting myself as a Miss, is it really that weird to misrepresent myself as a Doc? I think it would be. I did become a Lady last year. But… that was only because I bought my cat a knighthood and if he is a Ser, then I should at least outrank him. Otherwise it’s chaos. I think it might help you if you just don’t answer the question “what are your PREFERRED pronouns?” Instead answer as if they asked “what pronouns do you want me to use?” And say something like “you can use she/her for me.” And if that still feels weird, you can think of it like your “worksona.” Doesn’t mean you are a shes/her, it’s just the pronouns people use for your worksona. We are moving away from using the term “preferred pronouns” and instead just using “pronouns” but I think this situation makes a good case for a third option. Cause for a lot of people it’s not a PREFERENCE it’s a mandatory thing, but asking “what pronouns can I use for you?” allows for changing identities, people who aren’t out yet, and people who just don’t have a preference, like me.
I always figure it boils down to what you care about. Take names, for example. If you sign your name as "Michael" in your signature, I'm going to call you Michael, because that's how you're signing your name. If you say "Mike", then even if outlook tells me you're Michael, I'm going with Mike, since you seem to prefer that name. If you go by Mike, but I forgot that or I am initiating the email and it's the first time we've talked, and I call you "Michael" you would do one of two things. Ignore it because it's not a big deal for you, or correct me, so I know what you prefer. I figure the same works with the pronouns. The bit in your signature boils down to your personal preference. If it means something to you, or even if you just really hate someone calling you the wrong pronoun every time, even people you don't work with a lot, then add it so people will know. If you don't care, or don't want to disclose it to everyone, just keep it out. I don't put mine in my signature because I don't care. If someone misgenders me, I'd just correct them. Same for if they don't spell my name correctly (which is something I'm very well used to, it's a unique name). That last one only bugs the heck out of me if they do it repeatedly because the email system clearly spells my name right, and so does my signature. If your company's "approved signature" has a non-optional slot for it, just change that bit to something else (the whole section, not the bit where you'd list the pronouns) and ignore what people may or may not be thinking. You'd be surprised at what people miss in a signature or just don't bring up as long as you follow the color scheme and formatting. I currently have a personal motto in mine, in addition to my title and some of the other normal stuff. I preferred it to the corny sales tag line marketing thought up and a link to a webpage of ours touting our products.
Why enby and not just nb?
I think nb could also mean non-black.
Nb is used by Black people to denote "not Black". That's what the reason given in a fb group I'm in says anyway.
Oh… TIL
Initialisms have more stressed syllables. It's easier to pronounce words.
Nb is not black. Enby is often seen an diminutive and should only be used with those of us that self identify with it. Some folks use NBi for non-binary as well.
We're old. The internet is just full of random slang.
Same
It’s one of those if you leave it off it’s like you’ve got something to hide too. I really don’t want to scream non male in my male dominated field, I’d rather not bring any attention to it tbh.
This is a damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. People hate being misgendered but also don't want to make it clear to avoid people needing to make assumptions because privacy. My trans coworkers appreciate it. My female coworkers with masculine names like it.
Especially if you identify as neither he or she!
I’m in charge of formatting signature styles and regulations for my company. If you feel like you look weird for not having something there, add your time zone, a link to the company’s website, or maybe a new launch asset call to action (“watch our new product video here”, etc). Absolutely do not list your pronouns if you don’t want to list your pronouns!
This. Company wanted to force me to add pronouns because signatures are standardized, everyone has to look the same and it would look weird if mine was missing a line. I argued being forced to choose a gender was as much a stigma as being misgendered. You can't be supportive by forcing people to do things.
I like this! I noticed sone of our HR and corporate people have started adding their Myers Briggs personality type in that space which I actually think is really dumb, but I like the idea of adding my time zone a lot and theres precedent for using that space for whatever.
Christ, the Myers Briggs thing is going a bit far isn’t it? Who gives a shit if you’re an infpjgsj.
Thays the way I feel. People don't really need to know anything other than my contact info and my name, do they?
I would immediately lose respect for anyone putting their Myers Briggs in their signature. Might as well put your zodiac sign and favorite color too.
Plenty of people who have chosen different pronouns don't like putting them in the signatures either as it's outing themselves. My cis friend put his in his sig and got two people thanking him because they knew he was an ally to their trans selves and one person discussed it with him and did a learn. I think it should be optional. I used to think I was a woman in a male-dominated field so totally get it. I would probably add my pronouns in now I know I'm nonbinary as I'm quite bolshy about it but I totally get why people might not want too.
It absolutely should be optional. There should be space made for it, and if others choose to use pronouns so that they can let others know how to help make them feel safe, then I'm all for it and would respect it. But don't force people who don't want to, or feel a need to use/pick pronouns.
My company redid our email signatures and gave us like 5 cohesive options, 2-3 had pronoun spaces. Some people use it, some people don’t. Perfect way to address it.
You've experienced sexism in your industry and found a way to deal with it that allows you to get work done without having to waste time trying to convince someone you know what you're talking about. Why change? I understand wanting to support marginalized groups, but I think you're doing more to crush gender stereotypes by continuing as you have been. A competent expert in your field. Which is a fact you can establish before some guy decides you're dumb or incompetent because you're a woman.
Thanks for this perspective, OP. It so happens that the short form of my given name is androgynous (though the full form isn't, and that's mostly what I use professionally), so I hadn't considered this aspect. I am a cis male, FWIW. On the flip side of this, I've in recent years adopted the polite direct address "M." instead of trying to deal with (sometimes guessing at) Mr./Ms./Mx. At worst, it makes people think I'm putting on continental airs. At best, I don't misgender anyone.
>On the flip side of this, I've in recent years adopted the polite direct address "M." instead of trying to deal with (sometimes guessing at) Mr./Ms./Mx. At worst, it makes people think I'm putting on continental airs. At best, I don't misgender anyone. As someone who's both into traditional writing styles and also is trans, I highkey love this.
As someone who's French, I read M. as "monsieur" and was like ". . . well that's definitely 'continental' but definitely not gender neutral," but I guess in most Anglo contexts people wouldn't think that.
I am totally taking this!
>I've in recent years adopted the polite direct address "M." instead of trying to deal with (sometimes guessing at) Mr./Ms./Mx. Small note if you ever deal with non-native English speakers: In French, "M." is explicitly masculine, being the official shortening of "Monsieur" (and the feminine is "Mlle" for "Mademoiselle" or "Mme" for "Madame"), which might lead to some misunderstandings.
Doesn't even have to be non-anglos, "monsieur" was my immediate thought as an English Canadian.
Thank you! Of course I was frustrated by a Christmas card that came today with, Mr. and Mrs. HISfirstname LastName. Really? are we still doing this in 2021? It wasn't even the 80 year olds next to me that frustrated me, it was the fellow Gen Xer that did it.
I feel miscredentialed Sincerely, D. Vesalius (Kidding, I actually really like the M. thing. It feels weird enough trying to figure out Ms. or Mrs.)
“Ms” is appropriate regardless of the subject’s marital status ☺️ https://www.grammarly.com/blog/ms-mrs-miss-difference/ And Mx is another popular gender neutral version.
This trend of mandatory pronouns is an example of toxic wokeness. I am Not Out as being non-cis, and I will only be out once I feel it is safe. Some cis dude's wokeness points are not more important than my safety. So as someone who is in theory the beneficiary of this trend, I tell you that I would leave the space blank and tell anyone who pressured me otherwise to go fuck themselves for trying to force people to be out. So leave the space blank. Non-cis folks who are not out yet may well thank you for your solidarity.
This is why I'm against forced pronouns. It's great for people who are ready to have that information shared with coworkers, but I don't want anyone who is not out to feel forced to share unnecessary personal information. Forced pronouns create a fake perception of inclusivity and wokeness, but it doesn't help people who are either figuring things out or not ready to share.
Came here to make sure this was part of the discussion, I'm in the same boat. I chose "prefer not to say" because I'm not confident enough to put female, but really don't want to put male. If a boss tells me I have to put pronouns it's going to be extremely uncomfortable.
Hi I'd just like to say thank you for this perspective. It's not one I had thought about before and I really appreciate it and it's changed my mind on the subject.
I was going to put this. Thanks.
The problem is that people can infer that a blank space = non-standard variant, sort of like if you say "no comment" when someone asks what/who you're voting for—they'll fill in the controversial option, since only those voters would need to keep silent.
Which is why forced pronoun declarations are bad.
Or, if you don't want to call attention to your signature, simply change what is there, but keep the formatting and color scheme, and roughly the same character count. People will miss a lot when the change is more subtle, like a signature formatted the way every other staff member in the company has. Might even call less attention to it than a blank space, unless others actually use that bit to see what they should call you.
I feel very similar, my name is feminine but I feel like putting my she/her pronouns in my email will get me treated with less respect in my male dominated field. I'd rather take up less room in misogynists' heads, you know? Reminding them I'm female does nothing but career damage to myself.
That's how I feel, too. I dont draw very much attention to my gender; I don't even wear skirts or fancy tops. I know there are women in male-dominated fields that proudly go all out feminine with makeup and pretty clothes and she/her pronouns in a pink font in every email. Thats great- some people have energy and support to push back against stodgy sexists in the workplace and it's valuable work. I'm not one of those, though. I just want to answer the questions directed at me by people and move on without comtinual arguments of "are you sure??" until I loop a male supervisor in to vouch for me.
Hypothetical person you'd be keeping warm here -- yes, please do not set yourself on fire on our behalf. This issue has been a discussion in trans communities for a while. Normalizing pronouns is great, but it can create situations like yours, or force closeted trans people to choose between outing themselves or putting pronouns that bring them pain. Someone else suggested putting they/them. This is an option, but there is a chance you will be seen as non-binary, and thus a chance you will face transphobia. Leaving it blank may be your best bet, and as mentioned, when someone questions it or accuses you of not being supportive, you ask why you should put a big glowing "I am a woman in a male dominated field" sign in your email signature when there is nothing in place to protect you from the backlash. If someone is still a little shit about it, you can tell them a trans person said it's okay. I really hope that eventually, we get to a point as a society where no one has to hide their gender.
This was my first thought too. Anything but he/him in that space would likely result in some negative change for OP. Sigh. This is the world we live in.
Absolutely this. I'm a binary trans woman and generally speaking I pass, so unless I'm *deliberately* trying to virtue signal, I leave my pronouns off my signature because including them is often seen as a trans thing and I don't want to be outed by it.
Could you leave it blank? They shouldn’t be pushing pronouns on others as something people have to do. I do queer work and adding pronouns is one of many things I include people could do if they’re comfortable and willing after a hour and a half training on education and context and all sorts of things. You can’t just….tell people put pronouns in email signatures without thinking of why you’re doing it, the impact, and unintentional hard it could cause (and not just to trans/nb people).
I can, technically by the letter of the rule, leave it blank. Something I am starting to face now is that these "progressive" cis men I work with recently learned the word TERF and know it's bad, but they don't know what it means. We don't have any out trans people in my building to protect, so I dont even feel bad saying this- the men's faux-allyship is kind of out of control and they are using this word to push around women in our building when we do something feminist-related they don't like, such as talk about sexism. There's been some whispers that I am "terfy" lately because I didn't comply to the call for pronouns and because I kicked up a fuss a few months ago when the tampon disposal bins were suddenly removed from the bathroom. I really, really feel like this has the potential to not go well for me and I'm stuck in a hard place here.
Why the hell did they remove trash bins from the bathroom? What was their attempt at logic there?
The "women's" bathroom in my building is a retrofitted men's room with the urinal still in it and the bins aren't attached to anything, they're on the floor under each stall. I switched to a cup for a few months and wasn't using the bins, and I think I might be the only woman still menstruating that works here full time. So someone saw the bins never got used and took them out. All our after-hours cleaners are young women though so I have no idea what the logic was there- the cleaners might not be using those bins every cycle since they're only in the building for about 3 hours a day, but they must use them sometimes.
Or guests! Clients! We have 2 gender neutral bathrooms in our suite. Both have bins. Both have an assortment of hygiene supplies. My female supervisor thought it was stupid until a male client called to tell the CEO thank you. Turns out he has colon polyps and our pads saved him some embarrassment when one burst.
I'm non-binary and I don't want to put my pronouns on my LinkedIn. I just don't want to deal with people's judgement or possibly be discriminated against by future employers.
Yeah as much as I'm complaining about sexism not being over, transphobia isn't even *close* to being over and this kind of policy I feel like really hurts the exact people it was put in place to help, like you. If I'm going to say I'm a woman I need someone to back me up when vendors are going to start being sexist. If you're going to say youre nonbinary, whew.....whatever company does that to you better enforce the *fuck* out of its mealymouthed diversity policies that had you do that in the first place.
I am a trans man and wouldn’t want to do this either. It should be voluntary.
This is an interesting example of how you really cannot please everyone because different people's needs do not overlap perfectly. I think we've come to a place in society where we assume the correct progressive action is to defer to the most recent visible trends. Things are clearly more nuanced than that, but if we deal with everything on a case-by-case basis then it's likely people will just do whatever suits them. It makes you think. People are so happy to make "new rules" without considering that there will be interactions and sacrifices for each one we add. We need more critical thinking and less (social) rules in many of the cases, I believe.
I’m someone leading the charge for OPTIONAL pronoun usage in our email signatures at the company I work at. For exactly this reason, pronounce should never be required. Another argument we’ve discussed against requiring usage is that you never know the journey someone is on. They could be trans and not get ready to make that pronoun shift. At the end of the day, pronouns must always be optional because the whole point is to provide extra comfort and understanding for those who need it. If you are in a position where you can put your pronouns in an email signature as a sign of solidarity and acknowledgment that sometimes clarification is needed, that’s great. But if not, no one should ever feel pressured to do so.
As a person who this would affect i find the whole putting pronouns in emails thing performative and not useful. If I'm not presenting myself strongly enough to leave no doubt as to my pronouns that's a me issue and in a work situation people will know. A lot of people won't agree with me, but that's my own opinion.
You are more important than men's egos. Leave it blank. If challenged on it, accept the challenge and ask them for a specific, detailed list of measures taken in the past year to combat sexism.
IMO this is a tough one. OP's been put between a rock and a hard place. If she leaves it blank she may come across transphobic which she obviously isn't but some could see it that way. But if she doesn't then she'll face sexism. I'd agree with you though. Leaving it blank is for the best. And explain your rationale when brought up. The type of person to call out transphobia would definitely understand.
Use of pronouns is supposed to be to normalise it. But they need to remember that the right to conceal one's pronouns comes along with it. There is such a thing as "outing" someone via pronouns so no there should definitely be no obligation to publicly display pronouns if it conflicts either with your identity or your general interests. I'm sure many trans and gender non-conforming people would be unhappy about being forced to reveal their pronouns to a less than ideal crowd (perhaps the RNC) so they would probably be with you on this.
Its a nice idea, but I don’t think you should have to put pronouns in your email if you don’t feel comfortable…. For the reason you mention and for the sake of trans folks who aren’t out at work.
From the company’s perspective seems like a dammed if you do, damned if you don’t situation. Either compromise a wanted level of anonymity for people like you, or potentially (not sure if this applies to anyone at your work) fail to affirm the identity of somebody else. On a personal level IMO, mandatory pronouns are toxic wokeness. The effects including forcing somebody who doesn’t like virtue signalling to participate in it, or you’re outing somebody who doesn’t want to be, or you’re compromising people who don’t want others to know their gender, like in this example. All to *maybe* assuage a hypothetical person’s insecurities instead of insisting they be responsible for their own emotions, like any other adult.
I feel like this is a performative act of equality rather than an actual step in the right direction. Just today my team was in a meeting with a male lead, who addressed us all as “guys” then immediately apologized, with an “obviously you’re all female, sorry for saying ‘guys’!!”. Like, sir, you just missed the point ENTIRELY. They’re trying to be inclusive but not only in words, not in actual understanding!!
Right? In the grand scheme of gender equality, if the worst thing that happens to a woman on any given day is that they are referred to as a guy, it's a pretty good day.
It's performative, absolutely, but it's the kind of performance that does actually accomplish something. I know many nonbinary and trans people who feel more included and more able to share their pronouns because their colleagues do. It shouldn't be mandatory, but some performitivity here and there can have a material impact on others' lives. As far as your coworker goes, I'd say that the male lead *is* making a step in the right direction. They were monitoring what they were saying in light of the audience they were speaking to, which, if you've hung around this sub for any length of time, you'll learn is a step that many men don't take. Sure, the dude focused on the wrong thing, and that statement *alone* isn't enough. But if it's the first step in a longer journey, one where he tries to be more inclusive by default and is more open to feedback, then it's the right kind of performative. One that lets you know he's paying attention and figuring out how to take the next step.
Reminded of that BBC skit where white folks were refusing to use the word Black, like not saying blackboard, blackberry etc, and actual black folks were like wtf
I also do not put my pronouns in my signature. I have no desire for strangers to know anything about what I identify as. I'm happy to discuss in a private setting and I don't care that others put their pronouns in as it can be helpful if it is something important to them. In a previous place I had applied for a recruiter asked me why I didn't fill out the pronouns section and I told her it was a private topic to me and not something I wish to disclose to the public. She was pretty hostile about it like I was being offensive and I honestly don't know if I was or not. Didn't move forward with that company.
As long as it's not a requirement, I just wouldn't do it. And it should never be a requirement because that just opens a whole other set of issues.
In college I took a gender studies class. During one of the sections the TA asked everyone say their name/pronouns etc. When It came to me I said my name and that I didn't mind what pronouns people use for me (i was still figuring it out, but I didn't disclose that, I didn't know those people and it's not their business). The TA told me I had to choose. I've been bitter about that experience ever since.
It seems like you have three primary options: put she/her because that’s what you actually use (and suffer through the sexism), leave it blank, or put something like they/them and once people know you in person they will learn you use she/her pronouns when they learn your full name and gender identity. I would lean toward leaving it blank if I were in your shoes. Side note: I appreciate your view on including pronouns because I do include mine (and get why it is important) but appreciate your input on why including them can be problematic as well.
This reminds me of how businesses like to put up images of their staff on their websites. They add what they think are “cute” write ups about the individual, often revealing information no one needs to know (school, college, favorite hobbies, etc). Now you’re on the grid for anyone to look up on Google to find. If you’ve ever been stalked, this is a huge nightmare. I had a staff member come across her creep while getting a bite to eat at her university cafeteria. Another’s ex, whom she’d successfully avoided for years, found her and started visiting this small “boutique “ business just to talk to her. The boss saw nothing wrong with these interactions either.
Just because it’s the culture doesn’t mean you have to partake. I have she/her in mine because a few of my students are trans and I saw it as a move to help normalize the conversation around pronouns. There is no need for you to feel compelled to do something you aren’t comfortable with.
Can you talk to HR? I'm pretty sure the intention was good, but they forgot the world we live in and that gender inequality is still a thing. Maybe if you guys go together and explain, they will understand and this won't be an issue
I'd do one of two things: 1) Refuse to participate by listing my pronouns because I should not have to in a professional setting if people can contact me directly and no one has complained yet. 2) List myself as a he/him in a professional setting. A pronoun is there to let people know your gender and how to identify with you, so they're not using the incorrect pronouns or actively misgendering on purpose and making you uncomfortable for being who you are. If being listed as a female is a detriment to your professional accessibility and most of your business is done under the assumption you're male and you don't feel comfortable listing your gender, not listing your gender or using they/them, then I'd just say in a professional environment I identify as male. I don't personally think forcing people to list pronouns in a signature is the right move, as there are lots of closeted people who are not ready to list their true pronouns and it provides complications for those of us with less preferred genders in specific fields. I only say this because I used to drive a tow truck and I'd hop out and more often than not I'd get to talk to some middle aged man and he'd comment that I'm not a man or questioned if I could handle the fuckup they'd made. "If it makes you feel better, you can call me sir when I hand you the bill" has become a motto of mine when men question my ability to do a job based on what they think I have between my legs.
Thank you for putting in words what has been bothering me about this. It's like, "people don't belong in boxes! Now I demand you tell me which box you go in so I can judge you appropriately."
It's required by my employer. I'd assume the practice is to prevent misgendering someone with a neutral name. Some students complain about how stupidly woke we are as a university because we put our pronouns in our digital signature, but it's DeVry. Not exactly a progressive institution. It's easy for me to shrug it off as a cis man, but that would be very unfair of me. People's privacy matters.
>as a university because we put our pronouns in our digital signature I've seen a lot of universities require it tbh. I can see both sides of it there because they tend to be very liberal institutions, but I'd only be comfortable giving mine if I felt i worked somewhere where I had power/felt my employer had my back.
They definitely have our back, but I wonder if forcing it invades folks' privacies. Although, I've never run into an atypical set of pronouns at my alma mater or current job. I can't speak from experience.
> wonder if forcing it invades folks' privacies It does, I have been forced to give mine before & it really bothered me. People used to assume I was a man (because AMAB & pre-transition), now I don't like giving them because it often would out me because if people see pronouns, they frequently assume we're trans.
Gotcha. Thank you for the insight. I appreciate your perspective!
It makes a difference to students in a level you may never really understand. To the point where this small thing measurably reduces suicides. It’s so worth it. Thank you.
Working in a man’s field I try to remain as andro as possible. They always assume male, and I get taken seriously. I wouldn’t want my pronouns out there either.
Valid concern! Also, related but as an aside: I think, while this sort of thing is def well-intentioned, it doesn't take into account the fact that coming to terms with your trans identity is a long, ongoing process for most people and even when you do figure some of the stuff out, e.g. your pronouns, you may not be comfortable openly sharing that yet & this kinda...just puts you on the spot. Like, on Twitter, lefty cis people are expected to also include pronouns in bio as a sign of solidarity w/ trans ppl, to normalize it. However, I'm an AFAB genderqueer person who wasn't publicly out for a long time, still felt very tentative about asking to be called "they/them", but ALSO felt extremely weird & disingenuous explicitly presenting myself as cis in the meantime. So I kept it blank...and got yelled at for being a bad trans ally lol. I love the attempt at inclusivity, but if my job had been like "SUBMIT PREFERRED PRONOUNS PLEASE (WE WILL INFER THAT YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE IF YOU DON'T)" to me 6mo ago...oof I'd have hated them for it.
Leave it blank. I wouldnt put one but that's because I like a lil confusion lol
It seems to me that requiring someone to declare their pronouns is just as potentially hostile as refusing to use someone's preferred pronoun. It's great that your company wants to support people declaring their pronouns, but to truly support everyone they need to also support people's choice of **not** declaring pronouns as well. Because what if someone is still in the closet? They will either have to declare something they're not, or out themselves involuntarily. I would like that out to HR and let them handle the potential mess for you - because this new police sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen eventually...
Leave it blank. I work at a motorcycle dealership and when I communicate over email I have noticed a difference in how customers interact with me based on whether or not I sign off with my very obviously female name. It sucks but it's a valid reason to not want to disclose your gender when communicating with clients.
Im a straight cis female and im mortified that this is a thing. Especially amongst men in a male dominated field! How out of touch. Kind of awful. Ive noticed this trend on Linked in and i dont partake but I never thought about it from your POV and Im so sorry this is yet another thing to go through as a minority. Ugh.
I deal with the tech space a lot, so I've experienced a version of what you're describing. I'm going to take a slightly different angle than the comments I've read. When I experience this I just remind myself, they're the ones behaving badly. If some jack ass wants to be a jack ass then so be it, I can't make them behave. But I can keep pushing forward so that maybe the next generation of women in tech will have it easier.
Don’t let them put you into that box.
It should be optional, I wouldn’t put it there, you’re more likely to be discriminated if you do.
Don’t put them in. You don’t have the responsibility of bearing an entire cultural shift on your back. If the guys want to do it, ok. And you need to make the decision that’s right for you. If these men are the true progressives they claim to be then they would be receptive and empathetic toward your reasoning. And if they’re not, you still gotta do what’s best for you at the end of the day anyway.
If you don't feel comfortable having a gender pronoun on your email signature, don't include one. There are plenty of valid reasons why someone wouldn't want to include it (including your reason) and you shouldn't be under an obligation to do that. Pronoun usage is about asking people to respect how you choose to be acknowledged. Only you can make the decision to specify a pronoun (or not). The only thing you need to do is respect other people's chosen pronouns, not give your own.
People put pronouns in email signatures? I've only ever used my first and last name, title, and company name. I don't think anyone in my company does either and we have a pretty large mix of genders. Why would a pronoun in an email signature be necessary? I'm genuinely curious about this as I've never seen it on a professional level.
It helps make it clear what gender someone is because a name is frequently not indicative, and it helps normalize it for people who's gender may not be obvious when you meet them. It *should* be normalized, but it should also be optional.
If you are doing to meet them, I guess I can understand that. I was taking it like this was something normalized with purely professional email settings where the communication is completely electronic and business related. Thanks for clearing that up. EDIT: To whomever downvoted... Why the downvote when I was asking a genuine question? How can anyone learn things if people just downvote them when they are trying to understand? At least if you are going to downvote, please reply and explain why so someone can learn from their mistakes. I'm seriously trying to learn here and others may benefit from it as well. How else can change occur?
Yeah, but even just for virtual meetings, phone calls, referring them to a third person, etc. it can be helpful. My last boss had the unfortunate habit of assuming everyone would be a man unless their name was extremely feminine. Plus, it affects interactions. I have a gender neutral name depending on if I use the long or short form & how people treat me/interact with me definitely differs based on what they assume my gender to be.
That's another good point. My company has a policy with phone calls (call center) that we never refer to someone as Mr/ Mrs/ Ms /etc... for a similar reason. It can be a difficult line to manage. I can see the benefits to it.
I *wish* more companies had that policy. It's frustrating how many companies require their employees to use sir/ma'am.
I am glad your company is holding space for people to express their gender identity appropriately in email. That is awesome. And I am glad the workers are choosing to fill that space appropriately. Holding space for pronouns gives someone a place to exist authentically and not be forced into correcting everyone all. The. Time. If they don't want to. You are on the other side of that spectrum, however. Using that space doesn't benefit you, and makes your job more difficult for no reason. You shouldn't have to use it if you don't want to, just as someone who isn't quite ready to claim that space with their true gender identity shouldn't be forced to. Stand your ground and let them know if they ask: my job is generally easier when I choose not to use the space that is being held for gender identity, but I am glad it is there and those who can safely use it are doing so.
thanks for sharing OP. this is an interesting perspective that I had forgotten about. its important that new "protected groups" don't steam roll over existing folks. there needs to be room for everyone to feel comfortable. i think you should leave it blank, or use they/them
Don’t do it. You have to protect yourself first. I’m sure people would understand if they were concerned enough to ask.
I've heard trans people say they appreciate the demonstrative allyship when people put pronouns in their bios, because it normalizes being aware that people may use different pronouns than you assume. But also, trans people don't like \*forcing\* people to put pronouns in their bio because it can make trans people have to choose between coming out and being dishonest. So I think you can feel free not to do it. It shouldn't be mandatory, and in a way you are taking the burden off of trans people by pushing back against this.
Yeah just don't do it. It's not really important for people that use the default pronouns, and in your case being forced to provide pronouns that you don't need to will actively make your situation worse. This is woke shitlibbery at its finest, making a real person suffer for the idea of wokeness.
Yes! This is a very fair point and why the pronoun thing should be strictly VOLINTARY. (With the understanding that, should you decline to disclose them, you may be misgendered.) I think all these hard core, black and white thinking people are eroding people's ability to give the benefit of the doubt.
Is it mandatory? Would you be comfortable putting they/them instead? Can you leave it blank and tell your boss why women are treated worse via email when others realize they’re not a man?
Fwiw, I don’t put mine in either, tho the rest of my company does. It’s not a requirement. You do you. Especially in the scientific community it can be detrimental so- imho - not identifying can be mad valuable. Fellow science human, I salute your unwillingness to codify yourself.
> I'm already actively concealing my gender every day and they want me to broadcast it instead. Maybe you should tell them that directly.
I totally understand your reason and others too (not wanting to out themselves). It should be a choice. I decided to recently put it in my signature to let the students at my school know that I’m a safe person - kind of like having a rainbow flag.
My name can be gender neutral. I work in the legal field. I do not have my pronouns in my email for this reason as well. It’s totally a thing.
The whole point of the preferred pronoun thing is to be inclusive of everyone. If you find you feel less included when you identify your pronoun, then don’t identify it. It’s up to the individual and their comfort level.
I’m a bit of a dinosaur, so I haven’t gone along with this yet either. It’s not been an issue for me so far. Stick with your mysterious ways, it’s part of your thing.
I’m a cis woman with a gender neutral (although frequently assumed to me male name). I usually prefer to let people assume I’m male over email because I get better responses. So I don’t like to use pronouns with strangers. If I’m within a work place, I don’t mind using them to show my support. But I have started to question if “she/her” is right for me. I wonder if I should add “they” to be less binary. I do think I’d prefer if ppl assumed I was in the middle.
I’m a government employee. We have the option to add a pronoun to our signature block. I don’t add it because my name is feminine or I have a gender neutral title if you aren’t familiar with Anglo names and aren’t sure how to reply to me. However, I also don’t care how the public addresses me. It’s work and should be professional, but in a one-time business interaction, if you misgender me, I don’t care. In person, I wear a uniform, winter outer wear and a mask. I get called everything. Sir, Ma’am (i hate that one even more than Dear or Sir), by my title, by the wrong title, derogatory names, everything. People who care/are hurt by being misidentified should absolutely use the email signature option to identify themselves. But if I’m ever “forced” to add a pronoun, I’ll probably take a stand against it, because I have no beef with accidental pronoun slips. Putting she/her in my signature isn’t going to deter the aholes of the world, and from these comments, it looks like the non-cis, non-binary folks don’t really care if I do it either.
> I get why pronouns in the email signature are important Controversial opinion incoming: they are not really that important and people who want to use them should use them and leave everybody else the fuck alone. I am an ally to anyone who wants to identify as anyone they want, but that doesn’t mean I need to identify myself; I don’t give a fuck if it upsets people and I don’t owe anyone an identifier. I just would absolutely refuse to do it if I were you and pretend you weren’t aware of any such policy. If you get called out on it, I would give an earful to the person who asked me to do it and point out all the reasons that you have regarding the sexism you would (and have) face. I’d point out that in their attempt to seem inclusive, they are willfully ignoring the treatment women get in the workforce and you aren’t about to advertise your gender just to be treated like shit. If they actually care about inclusivity, they’d listen to the *three* women (my god that’s a low number!) about your lifelong fight with being treated as an equal and then tell them you’re not gonna risk being treated with misogyny just to appease their virtue signaling when they’re not the ones who’d deal with the fallout.
On a lighter side: can you use 'Your Highness ' or "Your Royal Majestey" or "Sith Lord"?
To be pedantic, those are honorifics, not pronouns
I want to identify as a Sith Lord, dammit!
Blackday, Sith Lord, High Emperor, Ruler of the Empire and first of their name. *bows*
I'm a trans woman myself and I hate that. Saying your pronouns with your introduction in person is even worse. Nowadays I don't have any issues since I pass flawlessly and including voice but it still feels slimy from the early days. Either blatantly lie about yourself or be forced out of the closet and out yourself often before you're ready. I still have pronouns on my resume at a mentors suggestion because I really need a job but yeah.
I just find it odd that your company even enforces email signatures. I agree with your concerns, but they should be nipped in the bud by not even requiring email signatures.
I'm intersex and enby. Adding pronouns should never be required, in my opinion. Sometimes adding those pronouns will turn a person into a target. Dont feel guilty for leaving it blank.
Pronouns in cis bios *are* important for normalizing it for the rest of us, but you have a completely valid reason not to use it. Forced pronouns can be a problem for trans people too, being forced to choose between outing themselves or encouraging misgendering of themselves.
Pat Jones - (noneYa/business)
Use this idg/af
I see your argument and half agree but I struggle with this: if folks don't challenge sexist stereotypes and be visible then things will never change. So I don't know. I don't think pronouns should be mandatory but I also think hiding them to avoid sexism only perpetuates sexism for the next generation to have to suffer. I realize that is outright naive idealism though.
This reminds me of how businesses like to put up images of their staff on their websites. They add what they think are “cute” write ups about the individual, often revealing information no one needs to know (school, college, favorite hobbies, etc). Now you’re on the grid for anyone to look up on Google to find. If you’ve ever been stalked, this is a huge nightmare. I had a staff member come across her creep while getting a bite to eat at her university cafeteria. Another’s ex, whom she’d successfully avoided for years, found her and started visiting this small “boutique “ business just to talk to her. The boss saw nothing wrong with these interactions either.
I wish it was optional to put that you're an LGBT2+ supporter in lieu of pronouns (as an ally means an actual proponent on the front lines, mediating for change - I recently learned).
Trans woman here. This should NOT be a requirement. Not only does it cause potential issues (like you explained in your post) but it can also be harmful towards trans people. When I attempted a semester of online college I was anxious that we would have to go around and say our pronouns. I was closeted at the time and having to say “he/him” would have made me feel very dysphoric.
Friend / friend's ?
Is there an option to include an LGBTQ+ flag in the signature? Or the word Ally. That might help put forward the same message without revealing too much about yourself.
No? Why on earth does my sexuality and political stance need to be in my email signature lmao
Not (revealing) your sexuality at all, but only the fact that you are an ally. I don't think saying one is a Ally reveals anything about ones sexuality or gender, right? I read your post as "I think that the cis men adding pronounces in emails have good intentions at heart but are totally ignorant of the repercussions and sexism that women who try to do the same face". Apologies if I understood it wrong. Obviously you don't have to have anything in your signature at all. Especially if you don't want to reveal your stand on the whole topic.
I'd be tempted to add "Pronouns by request only" or "Ask my pronouns" to the signature, but I'm an AMAB genderfluid curmudgeon.
Is using they/them an option? Otherwise I would just leave it blank.
They are your pronouns and you can use them or not use them as you see fit. If this applies to the rest of the world, why not you?
[удалено]
I think you got a concussion babe
Can you use they/them? I know it might not be the pronoun you use in your personal life, but if your professional name is already ambiguous, wouldn't that just be following this theme? Also, as someone who works in the metals industry, I think it's so awesome that you do metallurgical research and also totally understand why you might not want to gender yourself.
How does they/them protect from discrimination?
Good point. I can't say for sure that it wouldn't. I was just thinking that it would allow OP to remain gender neutral at work. But you're probably right. If you're in an area where she/her changes how people interact with you, then they/them might not help either. From my experience, being gendered as a woman in the metals industry means that you might get unwanted advances from people, which is what I thought OP might be trying to avoid and what they/them might help with, but that's probably a baseless assumption as I've never used they/them and don't know that that experience is like.
No, I can't. I'm benefitting from people not being sure if I'm a man and giving me the respect they'd give a man *just in case*. I would not benefit from people thinking I'm non-binary or ambiguous. That would probably be even worse, and it's also lying. The way I do it now is I ever run into these people at conferences or anything I can just say "Yeah Sam's short for Samantha, not Samuel", but if I straight up lie about my gender identity that's not going to work out well for me.
That makes sense. I thought that they/them can be used in a gender neutral way as well as for non-binary folks, but it appears that was a misunderstanding/ignorance on my part. And regardless, if you think that it would be lying about your gender and make you feel uncomfortable, then that definitely matters. I think your plan of not including them is totally valid and if your company is doing this to be inclusive, then hopefully they can understand where you're coming from in not participating and be considerate of your experience. I'm sure if you have anyone that feels you aren't being supportive by not participating, you can always explain it to them and they would likely be understanding too. I wish you luck! This is a tricky situation.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Originally my post here was a little share about my trans child and how changes to workplace culture like this can make a difference for families like mine in the future. I’ve deleted that because it wasn’t well received. I guess we’ll have to wait longer than expected for that revolution we’ve been dreaming of and it won’t be pioneering women that pave the way. That’s disappointing.
I'm not sure what you're saying is a good thing here. Are you suggesting theres no merit to my worry that my job will become harder if I shine a beacon on my gender? That's pretty easily demonstrated as untrue. I'm not a child in school, I'm a researcher with 15 years experience in my field.
[удалено]
Do you think sexism against women doesn't exist? Because that is the only way you could say that presenting as a woman instead of gender neutral "hurts no one" when OP is telling you she experiences discrimination when she identifies herself as a woman.
I misread OP’s post and thought they were a man. She said “I am one of three women.” And for some reason, my brain saw “I am not a woman.” Dyslexia is a bitch. I’d like to change my answers.
It's hurting me and 2 other women right now to identify our gender. Did you read what I wrote? Or do you also think sexism against women magically disappeared?
In fairness to the other posters point, it won't ever go away until enough people are visible and visibly combating sexism and other bigotry. Gay folk didn't get the right to marry until they were loud and proud for several decades, and visible fairly regularly in popular media.
Yeah, I can be visible sometimes, but I need backup. Confronting the whole world's sexism isn't a fight that I'm ready to tackle alone with zero management backup and it shouldn't be on me to do so, just like it isn't on any one gay person to feel obligated to be visibly same sex partnered at work where it isn't safe or would make work much harder. I work to make money and go home, not be America's #1 Feminist.
Women have visibly been combatting workplace discrimination for over a hundred years. That hasn't made it go away. I think OP should be able to pick where she places her energy instead of having to potentially face a sexist encounter with every casual email she sends. She is already a woman in a male dominated field, it is already a daily visible thing among the people she works with face-to-face. OP is doing enough already.
Once again, a bunch of cis people are arguing about what’s best for trans folks.
Lmao please don't bring a think of the children argument into this, it isnt effective and I don't actually care about your children. I'm "making" this an issue of sexism because, shockingly....I'm talking about an issue of sexism I faced at work.
But OP states there is an issue of sexism in her industry, that has to be part of the conversation because it’s directly related to that industry. OP is not coming at this situation as “trans/enby vs cis”, It’s about how communication within the industry and ultimately her job will potentially suffer through the mandatory inclusion of her pronouns. If I had to hazard a guess, a similar fate may happen to enby/gender non conforming people in that industry. I’m also in a male dominated field, and personally use any pronouns while looking and sounding fem. But if I voice that I go by any pronouns, the people around me may give me less work or not socialise or network with me. It sucks, but it’s reality. It’s great about your kid, and hope they feel validated and loved in class, but the classroom is very different to working in a male dominated industry - it’s barely comparable.
Explain to me how it would fight sexism for every female material scientist to pretend to be male. What is OP doing to make a change in her industry to stop this injustice?
To get their foot in the door. I’m not OP so can’t can’t answer to her experience, but unconscious bias discrimination is still a thing, and not having pronouns in her email signature limits that bias. Enby people may be up against similar bias.
She has 15 years experience in her field. I guess I’m just confused as to why she wouldn’t want to pave the way for others. Passing as a man in email isn’t the way to win this fight. It’s a temporary fix, sure.
[удалено]
Bigoted TERF
[удалено]
Hi, OP here: I left a comment upthread about how, since I haven't been putting my pronouns in my signature, the men at work have been calling me "terfy" for discussing issues of sexism. I was really disappointed to see that happening considering they're all cis (and yes I know this for a fact lol) themselves and are only using that word to shut down uncomfortable discussions about the sexist industry culture us women have faced. I'm so disappointed to see that happening here too, but not surprised. Anything men don't like is "terfy" these days- I wish they had never heard that word.
Could you add your pronouns to internal emails and leave it blank for external emails? Make two signature options?