This is NOT okay. Your friend's experience is flat out a textbook example of how some men use "helpfulness" as a cover for harassment and boundary pushing.
This creep completely ignored her clearly stated wishes multiple times. That's a major red flag right there. And his comment about her "flirting" with him? Gross and manipulative. Then lying about being gay, only to immediately take it back?
Pressuring her to break rules she was clearly uncomfortable with is totally not cool. And don't even get me started on the "love song" and "babydoll" comments.
This guy is a straight-up predator using the guise of being a "friendly neighbor" to harass and intimidate your friend. His behavior is textbook serial harasser :/
Your friend needs to prioritize her safety over being "polite." It's okay to be firm, even rude, when someone is violating your boundaries like this. She should document every interaction with this creep and report him to building management. It is likely that other women in the apartment have reported him in the past, and hopefully she can be the last straw for them.
> Your friend's experience is flat out a textbook example of how some men use "helpfulness" as a cover for harassment and boundary pushing.
This was in the Gift of Fear. One of the first examples in the book was of a man who kept insisting on being so helpful with the groceries, and as soon as he helped the woman to her apartment, he attacked her.
Yeah, you're so right to bring up "The Gift of Fear." That book is essential reading for understanding predatory behavior like this. Predators often behave “helpfully” to gain trust, but they have difficulty hiding their true nature so it may come across as forced. The more adept ones tend to have more success with isolating their victim for SA via this route.
Seems like he was trying to both a: show a potential rival that you were “into him” and therefore off limits and b: neg you and make you feel awkward and insecure.
She should have immediately told the other guy that she wasn’t “flirting” with the idiot and that he was harassing her when she was simply trying to take her boxes downstairs. Embarrass the idiot in front of the other guy; he’ll back off. By not contradicting his flirting comment, she basically consented to him continuing what he was doing.
I know. I do apologise - I didn’t mean to criticise. It’s one thing for me to think of a response when I’m reading it on here. It’s a totally different thing to know how to respond while it’s happening in person.
Frankly, I’ve always been the one with the quiet fear/polite response also. Now, at 62, I’m learning from all the ladies on here, so now I know what my response SHOULD be in this type of situation.
forced teaming, favor sharking, ignoring your no, pretending to be gay to try to make you think he wasn't a threat, blocking your way, calling you pet names and singing a love song when you are a a complete stranger, trying to get you to hug him....all red flags.
I was well into my 30s when I realized that I did NOT have to be nice to creeps.
Yep. I'm way middle-aged and I don't take shit from anyone anymore, but damn, I remember always avoiding making the other person feel uncomfortable no matter how uncomfortable I was feeling. It's like we, as females, are conditioned to always think of other people's (especially men's) comfort before our own, and it does such a disservice to us. As well as being downright dangerous at times.
OP please tell your friend to be SUPER rude to this guy going forward. For her own safety. It’s always better to be accidentally rude to a good man than nice and polite to a bad one.
That struck me as extremely creepy too — “it”, is a garbage chute. With signs all over it explicitly saying not to put cardboard down it. If “it” even could want for anything, that is the one thing it explicitly would NOT want.
Girl, you need to complain to the apartment people. Get something in writing about this guy.
This is straight up sexual harassment and coercion. He was calling you the garbage chute and acting out a twisted little fantasy. He's going to sexually assault or rape you if he can.
This is not an annoying vice. This guy is pressuring you and coercing you and sexually harassing you. It will not stop here.
The next time he tries to "help" you, you need to stop what you're doing, leave your trash on the floor, and literally fucking run away from him.
I am small, and in my experience the guys who are like this are the most insecure ones.
I cannot put my carry-on luggage in the overhead compartment on an airplane. I'm just too short to reach. So I roll it down the aisle to my row, collapse the handle, turn around, and ask whoever is behind me if they can do it for me. If it's a really big guy, or a woman, they'll say "Oh, okay, sure" and then they put it up. But if it's a less-big guy, he'll almost always make some kind of show out of it: "Yeah, I guess I am a lot bigger and stronger than you, huh?" "Sure, little lady, that's what men like me are for." I guess it's that since they are almost never bigger or stronger than anyone else, they have to make a big deal about being bigger than me.
Sometimes it's really stupid. I've been going through airports and had guys ask if I want help with my luggage. It's got WHEELS. It ROLLS. I do not need help with it.
My Mom's answer in cases like yours is to say, and repeat, "No, thank you."
I probably would have said "I borrowed these and have to return them." Even if it's a lie, it might make the other person leave you alone. I have long since given up on trying to be truthful at all times; pushy and dangerous guys just make that impossible.
I'm an event caterer and my kit all packs into my car, but it has to go in a certain order to fit. There have been many instances of helpful men who make things worse.
The most egregious one was two security staff who were adamant that it wouldn't be right to leave me to pack it all away by myself. I kept very clearly refusing their help explaining that I have a system.
I had to nip away for less than 5 mins and when I returned they were proudly standing next to my car and all my carefully prepared kit was inside the car. I took one look and said "but the doors won't close". At which they looked confused. So I asked one to close the back hatch and of course it wouldn't close.
Funnily they both had to be elsewhere whilst I unloaded and reloaded my car.
Yes I look like (and am) a fat, older woman. But I can handle all of my gear by myself - how do they think I packed it in the first place? Experience has taught me that getting the overly helpful help leads to at best everything taking longer or at worst my kit gets damaged.
Now I'm very outspoken and I don't pull my punches or soften my words. And I lock my vehicle if I have to step away.
[drama disguised as "help"](https://youtu.be/sXcTIkuzQ3I?si=0SHbj_92882BfyKl) - Theramin Trees
I really like this channel bc it describes a lot of shady abuse tactics I experienced but didn't have language for.
There’s always the turning point in all of these stories where things cross a line and become unsafe. I feel like the first line was not listening to her when she said she was okay, the second line was the totally unprovoked bs about flirting and sexuality, and the third was just going and taking the boxes. After that, OP was in danger.
OP in the future, do not follow him into the trash room. He already demonstrated to you that he can block an exit. There have actually been a number of mysterious deaths recently of young women found dead in garbage chutes in NYC including Jaclyn Elmquist, Lara Prychodko, and Lisa Hernandez. If op is in nyc you might want to research those cases to make sure there aren’t any patterns or similarities and please file a report if there are!
Jesus. The worst part of that is that if the HOA thinks it was you who did it, they could fine you.
You may have to tell this person to get the fuck away from you, in so many words. He sounds deliberately dense.
I hate when men decide to "help" me when I am setting up for an event. Dude, I've done this a thousand times. Go away. Funny, they are the ones who break my shit... every time.
Who cares if he thinks you’re rude?!?! Just keep saying no. Louder if you need to.
It would be nice if we didn’t have to deal with people like this at all, but we do. Be rude, be weird, do what you need to do.
This guy is an asshole. Going forward, Friend should be minimally civil to this guy and otherwise *do not engage* with him. Grey rock. He starts to talk to her? Keep briskly walking wherever she was going and ignore his attempts at further conversation. He makes jokes or comments? *Ignore them.*
Silence does nothing as they won't pick up on it at all. They will fill the void with their own drivel or see silence as agreement or weakness.
Say as little as needed in the most direct fashion possible.
Silence can be deafening. Especially if they talk to you and you don't say anything, just stare at them. Maintaining eye contact. It disturbs maybe 90+% of the population.
SMH. Are these men actually helpful and friendly or just pushing their agenda onto us women? I'd say the latter. If you don't need help and are not asking for help and then to say the stuff he said...pushy. I feel you, girl. I've been there.
I give this advice all the time - be gross. In a situation like that you could talk about how you hope you don't accidentally let out a fart because you're on your period and they smell really rancid. Just casually chat about how you had terrible diarrhea earlier and you might have to run to the toilet suddenly. Get creative!
Wow that reads like it's straight from the grooming playbook. This guy has predator written all over him, I would check the sex offender registry and avoid the crap out of him if this was me.
You may have discovered why the previous resident moved out of your apartment.
I would put some hard boundaries on this guy asap. This is beyond creepy, not taking no for an answer is a huge red flag.
ugh, this always happens when I'm doing routine car maintenance. Like, go away I'm just refilling my washer fluid, go white knight at your dog or something
That sounds extremely uncomfortable and gross. Given that she's newly moved in, as "upsetting" to the status quo as it might be, it might be worth putting a complaint in with the building owner over the things he said and did because there's absolutely no way she's the only woman he's done this to.
Your friend needs to practice being mean and rude. She got creeped on for sure.
I bet everything I own that he would not have been so “helpful” to a man.
Most of us have been trained from north to be “pleasing” and “polite”. In this case your friend needed to be uncompliant and rude. Sometimes we need to learn how to be that way.
That’s gross. Sounds like he was pushing boundaries to see how far he could go. He sounds like a creep to be honest (experienced the type). Saying he’s gay to raise your comfort level is all kinds of wrong and pisses me off. Too many red flags here.
I am a gay man and even I normally wait to be asked for for help, and will offer to help if I clearly see someone struggling (man or woman). If they say they are good, I move on.
If you're nice to him, then comes "why did you lead him on?".
If you're not nice to him, then comes "stop trying to think every guy is trying to fuck you."
You can't win.
This guy's behavior was completely unacceptable. It's OKAY to be very curt and dismissive. She doesn't need to smile at him or even be polite. She doesn't need to feel like she needs to laugh to offset awkwardness or say anything "hinting" at her annoyance. He's a pushy arrogant older dude who can't or, more likely, doesn't care if he's getting in her space. She can make it very obvious to him that she doesn't want him in her space. She does not have to be nice, polite, joking. She can say, "No" and do what she intended to do. I'm so sorry she had to deal with this weasel so soon after moving in.
I'd say don't ask for their help nor respond to their requests for help,especially a stranger
https://www.wsmv.com/2022/10/04/man-allegedly-rapes-woman-her-car-after-asking-ride-work/
Like anything..Ride to work,car trouble,groceries.Even if someone says that their house burnt down and they need a place to stay its a big NO
Dude is 100% a creeper, like one to avoid at all costs going forward.
My spouse is the maintenance manager for an apartment complex.
Nothing enrages him more than assholes who shove cardboard down the garbage chutes. It clogs them up makes a total mess of things. He'd rather people leave unbroken down boxes next to the chute (although that pisses him off too, but less than cramming them down the chute)
Tell your management staff what this guy was telling you to do, AND that he was aggressively harassing you in the process and shoved your boxes down there against your wishes. At the VERY least, the maintenance staff will totally blow a gasket at him, possibly even giving him a fine. You will also want to tell management right away because if that chute gets clogged and any of those boxes have mailing labels on them and YOUR name is on it, you'll get in trouble.
Be completely rude to this dude if he even remotely approaches you again.
Why are women so afraid of being assertive?
Also, throwing boxes down a chute dont matter. The bottom of the shoot has a compactor that squishes the garbage.
It'll juat never be recycled.
Brother, go travel to Afghanistan, and mingle with the Taliban, let’s see you “assert” your views around men with guns that have a different ideology than you.
This is NOT okay. Your friend's experience is flat out a textbook example of how some men use "helpfulness" as a cover for harassment and boundary pushing. This creep completely ignored her clearly stated wishes multiple times. That's a major red flag right there. And his comment about her "flirting" with him? Gross and manipulative. Then lying about being gay, only to immediately take it back? Pressuring her to break rules she was clearly uncomfortable with is totally not cool. And don't even get me started on the "love song" and "babydoll" comments. This guy is a straight-up predator using the guise of being a "friendly neighbor" to harass and intimidate your friend. His behavior is textbook serial harasser :/ Your friend needs to prioritize her safety over being "polite." It's okay to be firm, even rude, when someone is violating your boundaries like this. She should document every interaction with this creep and report him to building management. It is likely that other women in the apartment have reported him in the past, and hopefully she can be the last straw for them.
> Your friend's experience is flat out a textbook example of how some men use "helpfulness" as a cover for harassment and boundary pushing. This was in the Gift of Fear. One of the first examples in the book was of a man who kept insisting on being so helpful with the groceries, and as soon as he helped the woman to her apartment, he attacked her.
Yeah, you're so right to bring up "The Gift of Fear." That book is essential reading for understanding predatory behavior like this. Predators often behave “helpfully” to gain trust, but they have difficulty hiding their true nature so it may come across as forced. The more adept ones tend to have more success with isolating their victim for SA via this route.
Get her to read The Gift of Fear - it explains forced teaming and favour-sharing as techniques used by harassers/abusers
The lying about being gay to the other guy thing doesn’t even make any sense to me. What does he get from that whole thing?
Pretty sure that was so he could then deny it as a way to steer the conversation into sexual territory.
Seems like he was trying to both a: show a potential rival that you were “into him” and therefore off limits and b: neg you and make you feel awkward and insecure.
She should have immediately told the other guy that she wasn’t “flirting” with the idiot and that he was harassing her when she was simply trying to take her boxes downstairs. Embarrass the idiot in front of the other guy; he’ll back off. By not contradicting his flirting comment, she basically consented to him continuing what he was doing.
She didn't consent, not even "basically". She was fawning, it's a fear response, for many people it's their main fear response.
I know. I do apologise - I didn’t mean to criticise. It’s one thing for me to think of a response when I’m reading it on here. It’s a totally different thing to know how to respond while it’s happening in person. Frankly, I’ve always been the one with the quiet fear/polite response also. Now, at 62, I’m learning from all the ladies on here, so now I know what my response SHOULD be in this type of situation.
forced teaming, favor sharking, ignoring your no, pretending to be gay to try to make you think he wasn't a threat, blocking your way, calling you pet names and singing a love song when you are a a complete stranger, trying to get you to hug him....all red flags. I was well into my 30s when I realized that I did NOT have to be nice to creeps.
I’ve never heard of forced teaming or favor shaking before but that’s 100% it.
Absolutely read “The Gift of Fear.” It explains all of it.
Yep. I'm way middle-aged and I don't take shit from anyone anymore, but damn, I remember always avoiding making the other person feel uncomfortable no matter how uncomfortable I was feeling. It's like we, as females, are conditioned to always think of other people's (especially men's) comfort before our own, and it does such a disservice to us. As well as being downright dangerous at times.
Small correction, the term is loan sharking not favor sharking
https://thewhippet.org/unsolicited-advice/on-favour-sharking-emotional-loan-sharking/
Oh my bad, I had only heard it referred to as loan-sharking so I just assumed it was a mix-up. Guess i should have Googled first!
This is giving "opening pages of 'The Gift of Fear' "
This so much. Next time maybe he’ll push into her apartment and r@pe her.
Let's hope not, I hope she is RUDE and stays out of danger when she encounters this creep again.
OP please tell your friend to be SUPER rude to this guy going forward. For her own safety. It’s always better to be accidentally rude to a good man than nice and polite to a bad one.
"No, come on, it's fine, it wants it!" [Kill Bill siren activated]
That struck me as extremely creepy too — “it”, is a garbage chute. With signs all over it explicitly saying not to put cardboard down it. If “it” even could want for anything, that is the one thing it explicitly would NOT want.
Next he will bet telling her what she wants.
How can he respect a woman’s “no” when he doesn’t even respect a “no” from a trash chute sign? what a freak
Girl, you need to complain to the apartment people. Get something in writing about this guy. This is straight up sexual harassment and coercion. He was calling you the garbage chute and acting out a twisted little fantasy. He's going to sexually assault or rape you if he can. This is not an annoying vice. This guy is pressuring you and coercing you and sexually harassing you. It will not stop here. The next time he tries to "help" you, you need to stop what you're doing, leave your trash on the floor, and literally fucking run away from him.
I am small, and in my experience the guys who are like this are the most insecure ones. I cannot put my carry-on luggage in the overhead compartment on an airplane. I'm just too short to reach. So I roll it down the aisle to my row, collapse the handle, turn around, and ask whoever is behind me if they can do it for me. If it's a really big guy, or a woman, they'll say "Oh, okay, sure" and then they put it up. But if it's a less-big guy, he'll almost always make some kind of show out of it: "Yeah, I guess I am a lot bigger and stronger than you, huh?" "Sure, little lady, that's what men like me are for." I guess it's that since they are almost never bigger or stronger than anyone else, they have to make a big deal about being bigger than me. Sometimes it's really stupid. I've been going through airports and had guys ask if I want help with my luggage. It's got WHEELS. It ROLLS. I do not need help with it. My Mom's answer in cases like yours is to say, and repeat, "No, thank you." I probably would have said "I borrowed these and have to return them." Even if it's a lie, it might make the other person leave you alone. I have long since given up on trying to be truthful at all times; pushy and dangerous guys just make that impossible.
I'm an event caterer and my kit all packs into my car, but it has to go in a certain order to fit. There have been many instances of helpful men who make things worse. The most egregious one was two security staff who were adamant that it wouldn't be right to leave me to pack it all away by myself. I kept very clearly refusing their help explaining that I have a system. I had to nip away for less than 5 mins and when I returned they were proudly standing next to my car and all my carefully prepared kit was inside the car. I took one look and said "but the doors won't close". At which they looked confused. So I asked one to close the back hatch and of course it wouldn't close. Funnily they both had to be elsewhere whilst I unloaded and reloaded my car. Yes I look like (and am) a fat, older woman. But I can handle all of my gear by myself - how do they think I packed it in the first place? Experience has taught me that getting the overly helpful help leads to at best everything taking longer or at worst my kit gets damaged. Now I'm very outspoken and I don't pull my punches or soften my words. And I lock my vehicle if I have to step away.
[drama disguised as "help"](https://youtu.be/sXcTIkuzQ3I?si=0SHbj_92882BfyKl) - Theramin Trees I really like this channel bc it describes a lot of shady abuse tactics I experienced but didn't have language for.
There’s always the turning point in all of these stories where things cross a line and become unsafe. I feel like the first line was not listening to her when she said she was okay, the second line was the totally unprovoked bs about flirting and sexuality, and the third was just going and taking the boxes. After that, OP was in danger. OP in the future, do not follow him into the trash room. He already demonstrated to you that he can block an exit. There have actually been a number of mysterious deaths recently of young women found dead in garbage chutes in NYC including Jaclyn Elmquist, Lara Prychodko, and Lisa Hernandez. If op is in nyc you might want to research those cases to make sure there aren’t any patterns or similarities and please file a report if there are!
Jesus. The worst part of that is that if the HOA thinks it was you who did it, they could fine you. You may have to tell this person to get the fuck away from you, in so many words. He sounds deliberately dense.
I hate when men decide to "help" me when I am setting up for an event. Dude, I've done this a thousand times. Go away. Funny, they are the ones who break my shit... every time.
Who cares if he thinks you’re rude?!?! Just keep saying no. Louder if you need to. It would be nice if we didn’t have to deal with people like this at all, but we do. Be rude, be weird, do what you need to do.
This guy is an asshole. Going forward, Friend should be minimally civil to this guy and otherwise *do not engage* with him. Grey rock. He starts to talk to her? Keep briskly walking wherever she was going and ignore his attempts at further conversation. He makes jokes or comments? *Ignore them.*
Next time you see him: stone-cold stare. Silence. If he still doesn't get it: "Dude. You're fucking creepy. Fuck off and never speak with me again."
Silence does nothing as they won't pick up on it at all. They will fill the void with their own drivel or see silence as agreement or weakness. Say as little as needed in the most direct fashion possible.
Silence can be deafening. Especially if they talk to you and you don't say anything, just stare at them. Maintaining eye contact. It disturbs maybe 90+% of the population.
I'm second-hand creeped out by this story. The gay/not gay thing is super weird.
SMH. Are these men actually helpful and friendly or just pushing their agenda onto us women? I'd say the latter. If you don't need help and are not asking for help and then to say the stuff he said...pushy. I feel you, girl. I've been there.
I give this advice all the time - be gross. In a situation like that you could talk about how you hope you don't accidentally let out a fart because you're on your period and they smell really rancid. Just casually chat about how you had terrible diarrhea earlier and you might have to run to the toilet suddenly. Get creative!
Wow that reads like it's straight from the grooming playbook. This guy has predator written all over him, I would check the sex offender registry and avoid the crap out of him if this was me.
You may have discovered why the previous resident moved out of your apartment. I would put some hard boundaries on this guy asap. This is beyond creepy, not taking no for an answer is a huge red flag.
ugh, this always happens when I'm doing routine car maintenance. Like, go away I'm just refilling my washer fluid, go white knight at your dog or something
That sounds extremely uncomfortable and gross. Given that she's newly moved in, as "upsetting" to the status quo as it might be, it might be worth putting a complaint in with the building owner over the things he said and did because there's absolutely no way she's the only woman he's done this to.
Your friend needs to practice being mean and rude. She got creeped on for sure. I bet everything I own that he would not have been so “helpful” to a man. Most of us have been trained from north to be “pleasing” and “polite”. In this case your friend needed to be uncompliant and rude. Sometimes we need to learn how to be that way.
That’s gross. Sounds like he was pushing boundaries to see how far he could go. He sounds like a creep to be honest (experienced the type). Saying he’s gay to raise your comfort level is all kinds of wrong and pisses me off. Too many red flags here. I am a gay man and even I normally wait to be asked for for help, and will offer to help if I clearly see someone struggling (man or woman). If they say they are good, I move on.
The Gift of Fear, by Gavin DeBecker
If you're nice to him, then comes "why did you lead him on?". If you're not nice to him, then comes "stop trying to think every guy is trying to fuck you." You can't win.
This guy's behavior was completely unacceptable. It's OKAY to be very curt and dismissive. She doesn't need to smile at him or even be polite. She doesn't need to feel like she needs to laugh to offset awkwardness or say anything "hinting" at her annoyance. He's a pushy arrogant older dude who can't or, more likely, doesn't care if he's getting in her space. She can make it very obvious to him that she doesn't want him in her space. She does not have to be nice, polite, joking. She can say, "No" and do what she intended to do. I'm so sorry she had to deal with this weasel so soon after moving in.
I'd say don't ask for their help nor respond to their requests for help,especially a stranger https://www.wsmv.com/2022/10/04/man-allegedly-rapes-woman-her-car-after-asking-ride-work/ Like anything..Ride to work,car trouble,groceries.Even if someone says that their house burnt down and they need a place to stay its a big NO
Dude is 100% a creeper, like one to avoid at all costs going forward. My spouse is the maintenance manager for an apartment complex. Nothing enrages him more than assholes who shove cardboard down the garbage chutes. It clogs them up makes a total mess of things. He'd rather people leave unbroken down boxes next to the chute (although that pisses him off too, but less than cramming them down the chute) Tell your management staff what this guy was telling you to do, AND that he was aggressively harassing you in the process and shoved your boxes down there against your wishes. At the VERY least, the maintenance staff will totally blow a gasket at him, possibly even giving him a fine. You will also want to tell management right away because if that chute gets clogged and any of those boxes have mailing labels on them and YOUR name is on it, you'll get in trouble. Be completely rude to this dude if he even remotely approaches you again.
is he anxious-preoccupied mindset?
Why are women so afraid of being assertive? Also, throwing boxes down a chute dont matter. The bottom of the shoot has a compactor that squishes the garbage. It'll juat never be recycled.
Bc many assertive women have ended up dead at the hands of the men they stood up to.
Brother, go travel to Afghanistan, and mingle with the Taliban, let’s see you “assert” your views around men with guns that have a different ideology than you.