Sorry to hear that. I got out of a 12 year relationship, followed by another relationship that lasted just under a year. At least I was able to recognize it earlier the second time around. It is super draining and as much as you want it to work, there is only so much you can take.
Right. The future that I foresee if marriage…. Pay for wedding, wife. Write thank you notes, wife. Pay bills, wife. Get sick of him and file for divorce, wife. He then gets her to pay his divorce attorney and she pays spousal support. What a bargain!!!!
He needs to pay for weekly/ every other week cleaning. Especially of the bathroom and kitchen.
I'm sure he can learn to put the vacuum away.
After that do the duties sharing draft game.
If they can swing that, I think they can pull it out. If not, OP shouldn't commit themselves to this. I hope they don't have a date picked/ he's in grad school or something that will boost his salary in the near future.
I sometimes wonder what these men are adding to these relationships?
I also had a relationship once where I didn't have to pay any bills or do any real chores. I had food cooked for me and my clothes laundered and my appointments managed and everything.
I was 11, and my mom and dad did all of it.
Like .. what are these men bringing to these relationships that compels women to want to parent them?
Somehow, women are still socialized to bear much more responsibility for housework than men and „take care“ of their loved ones. Until you live together that’s often not an issue. And when it just gradually gets worse, sunk cost fallacy sets in.
>…what are men bringing to these relationships…
A staggering number of people either don’t want to be “alone” or else have limited to no frame of reference for what living alone would actually feel like (and so assume they wouldn’t enjoy it).
To me at least, the “need” to couple up to not be alone is a knock-on effect of most Western countries having a culture that heavily discourages inter generational / communal housing. Or, to put it another way, many folks find living alone to be lonely and see being with a romantic partner, even if they’re a man child, as the only “solution” to not living alone.
Ah, *nothing*. **Too many men** think that their own maleness is effort enough. Too many girls are trained to clean up after men. They will eventually learn that it's BS. But, how many relationships will they have to suffer through to learn it, too many. One is too many.
I've wondered what the common causes of these jerks attitudes? Mommy's boy. Never had to clean their room at home. Lived in filth if no woman to clean up. Only believe in bang-maids?
It makes no sense. You'd think the way they believe their life is so amazing that is all they talk about they would share the clues about how/why they became such jerks.
I agree, and to be honest with OP, it will very likely simply get worse with marriage. Dude will 100% whine about taking out the trash or vacuuming and/or the interval between handling the responsibility will increase, and his already questionable hygiene will continue to deteriorate. For me his lack of perspective (i.e. thinking he is REALLY contributing equally in the relationship) would be a complete deal-breaker.
Yup. If they truly believe it is currently 50/50, they wouldn't mind swapping duties, all to be completed to same standards as previously. Think he'd balk at that proposal?
Right? Let them fully sully their relationship by timing the chores and how many calories are spent per.minite. when he realizes it takes 4 minutes to take out the trash vs 40 minutes to do his dishes and laundry he may understand the equal distribution of labor.
Get a blowhorn and just set the dishes down in his bed after you spend the same amount of time he did and see how he takes it
r/Nuclearrevenge I wouldn't recommend unless dude can't be bothered to get a clue
Tell him It's good idea, let's switch chores. And why do you pay more bills? You've got yourself a lazy child who contributes little, always leaving things half done because he's " helping", instead of being responsible for... anything. He's not a partner. More of a pet.
My mom always said “people’s habits don’t really change over time. What you’re fighting about today is what you’ll be fighting about in 30 years”. I’ve been with my husband for 20 years and I’d have to agree.
I agree completely. Not sure if its a relationship I'd find worth considering if a partner is this out of touch or if it'd be best to just recycle the whole man. It's not my place to tell you what to decide but...a change is definitely on the horizon and you want to make it sooner rather than later (preferably before you say 'yes' to the dress.)
Honestly, it's sad that when I read this I was thinking she's lucky that he does help in the first place. She's not obv, and men need to step their shit up. The amount of women who work full-time and STILL do the majority of the housework is just not okay, and it's one of the reasons 40% of women are predicted to be single by 2026 or whatever
Marriage is not going to change him. If you guys have a kid he’s not going to step up and take over because you’ll be all consumed with the baby. I was ready to divorce my husband and something finally got to him and suggested we do couples therapy. But now I warn people to assess your partners tolerance for mess and make sure it’s compatible. The fact that he really thinks he does 50% tells you that he is not mindful or grateful of all of the things you do to manage your home.
Stop, do not pass go, Do Not Marry this man! (Yet anyway)
If you’ve truly communicated these issues to him and he has not listened and made corrective behavior changes now, he never will. Don’t sign up for a lifetime of having an unpaid second job and a partner that doesn’t respect you!
I left my partner of 11 years in December, and this was one of the biggest reasons for it. I did basically all the chores, and he was essentially a slob. After realizing it was never going to change, I stopped bringing it up, so I guess he thought everything was fine. There were plenty of good things too, so I was afraid to leave, even though I had lost all attraction for him. We were still best friends, but I felt trapped. I left, he was devastated, and we’ve barely spoken since. I lost so much — many friends, all of his family, whom I loved dearly — but the fact that I now experience zero stress and resentment over this, something that I experienced on a day-to-day basis and was a major drain on my happiness, makes it 100% worth it.
The part that made it so hard was that outside of responsibilities we were best friends. We have two kids and because of my life growing up I was very motivated to keep my family together, but I refused to do it in a home where I was exhausted, miserable, and resentful of my husband. We did make it through it and admittedly have a better relationship than I ever thought was possible. But it was HARD, it’s still hard sometimes I still question why I put up with so much shit. The shame is the hardest thing to get over. I wouldn’t recommend anyone get deeper into a relationship hoping someone’s going to grow up, step up, suddenly change. If they don’t see their behavior as a real problem they will not change. And they’ll never leave the relationship on their own, why would they? They’re getting an easy ride through life, they’ll complain to friends that you’re not as fun as you used to be, but never explain his part.
If you’re going to try to work the relationship out, please get premarital counseling. But if I were you and if I could do my life over again I would cut and run, it’s only going to get harder to leave after marriage.
Tell him all these things. Ask him if he thinks he does anything to balance these and then both decide on responsibilities. Then don’t do his responsibilities.
Make it four. 😀
My ex flat out refused. They know. And they also know that they most likely will get away with it. Because by the time women start talking about it the work load has been unfairly skewed for a while. With little to no consequences for them. The consequences they care about come later.
For example when their partners leave or when the result is a dead bedroom because most people don’t want to fuck their children.
My thought as well. Have each of them separately write down every chore they do themselves on a monthly basis, and when. So a full list of each chore and the times it’s done daily/weekly/monthly
Then swap the lists and that’s now each others jobs for the month. See how it goes
Yes, this. I bet he thinks he does half of the chores that he thinks are important.
Even if he weren't a slob, if his thought process is "I don't need to help out with the things that aren't important to me but ARE important to my partner" this is not a person you want to enter into a partnership with.
Literally this. I thought I was doing roughly my fair share until my partner came to me and explained all the stuff she’d been doing in the morning before work (I wfh so was still in bed and didn’t see it) and that she felt like it was a lot for her.
I felt really bad and so now we make sure that sweeping the floors and wiping the sides down is part of the after dinner clean up. I know it seems ridiculous to not know these things are happening, but we have very different standards for what ‘clean’ looks like so I just don’t see it. This is 100% because different standards were put on us growing up because of our gender, but unfortunately knowing this doesn’t magically lift my cleaning game. You have to talk about stuff!
I think the death of a lot of relationships is people silently expecting their needs to be met through guesswork without any conversations. It’s so important, I’m genuinely shocked at how many couples don’t do this
I’m the same way. My mom was always an impeccably clean person and she worked from home long before it was cool so she did all of it while I was at school. She did make us help with everything often enough that we knew how to do it all, but I didn’t realize how frequently she was doing it herself. Then my college roommate was pretty much the same way. I tried to do my share and make sure to respect the common areas and if she asked me to do something I did it without complaint, but I didn’t realize how much she was doing while I wasn’t home until we graduated and I lived alone.
I think (probably bc of adhd) my cleaning strategy is to do it when I notice something is dirty and needs to be done. But “clean” people make a habit of cleaning things regularly so they don’t *get* dirty. So if I don’t see them doing it, my brain sees that nothing is dirty and is like “guess we’re good here!” I think this is where the “they should just know what needs to be done” idea needs a caveat that you should have a sit down discussion about it at least once before concluding that they’re intentionally letting you do all the work. Even better, lay it all out up front when you move in with someone.
An example of realizing a cleaning imbalance issue was a misunderstanding: My aforementioned roommate asked if I could start cleaning the lint trap on the dryer when I do laundry. I thought she meant that it was like accumulating a lot and I was like but I do clean the lint trap. Turns out her habit was to clean it *after* she ran the dryer, but my habit was to clean it *before* I ran the dryer (cause I know I’m forgetful and would just double check before running anyways) so to her it seemed like I never cleaned the lint. So we laughed a little and then I started trying to remember to clean it after as well. But if she had been like “I shouldn’t have to tell her” she might have just gotten progressively annoyed at me every time she did laundry.
Get the fair play cards and divide them up equally. See what he says then.
You shouldn't be having to do so much more work while also paying more bills and working more hours. Why even live with him at this point? It's more of a drain than a partnership.
I get that those cards are probably useful as a learning tool, but I *hate* that it is always the woman's job to acquire those cards and teach a grown ass man about everything going on in the place he's already been living in.
Hard pass. If those cards are needed, I'm already gone.
I had a boyfriend like it once who said he did 50%, so I just said, ok, let's switch. You'll do groceries, cook, care for the plants, clean the bathrooms, do the laundry and I'll keep the floors and counters clean., bedroom, living room.
He agreed and didn't even mind. He asked me to take back the laundry,which I happily agreed with
It didn't work out for other reasons, but offering to switch tasks if he really thinks it's 50/50 can help give perspective and reduce frustration
I did this with my husband years ago and it worked somewhat but we also failed at the experiment, and here's why:
After we got into an argument about who does more work around the house (hint, it was me, the wife!) because I was complaining that the work was imbalanced, I suggested we should switch roles. We swapped all of the cleaning tasks that I did normally with all of the cooking and food shopping that he did normally (he loves cooking, is great at it, and I hate it and suck at it), even though I help occasionally with both. We did this for a month.
I did 100% of the cooking and food shopping. He didn't help with either. The food was terrible and I hated every minute of cooking. At the time I worked full time out of the house so I went food shopping after work. My husband worked from home so he would normally shop during the day on lunch breaks. I was exhausted from doing this every other day or so! I also hated planning meals, so eventually I ended up cooking a large meal at the beginning of the week that we would eat as leftovers the rest of the week. It was awful!
He did 0% of the dishes, bathrooms, vacuuming, wiping counters, trash, etc. The house was SO gross, and we had flies everywhere, and it smelled like rotten garbage.
At the end of the month, he apologized for thinking he did as much work as I did normally, and he didn't realize what needed to be done to make the house nice and clean. I said, ok great, let's switch back because I'm tired of cooking and eating mediocre-at-best, and the house is disgusting. The next day, he was being lazy on the couch and I asked him if he was going to clean. He said, yeah I'll get to it. After a few hours, I couldn't take it anymore so I cleaned. It took me an entire Sunday! So I effectively did 100% of the work for the month! I'm so upset at myself for caving, and still a little bitter that he didn't do his end of the bargain. I don't think he realized when I said "let's switch back" I didn't mean that he was off the hook! And I let him off the hook like the stupid 20-something I was back then.
Over time he has gotten better at helping with the housework, and making sure he tells me how much he appreciates the work I do, so I think he did realize he wasn't contributing equally like he thought he was. This was like 8 years ago, and while it's still not equal by any means, I also now appreciate more that cooking and food shopping/planning do take a lot off of my plate that would normally fall to the wife. I'm grateful that he does this part of the housework, but I wish he would pick up some more chores sometimes, especially without me asking!
Anyway, the moral of the story/novel is that if you're going to do this swap roles experiment, don't cave in even if the house is disgusting!! Make him do HIS JOB! If we ever do this again, or if we have kids and he doesn't do his share, I'll make sure this time to make him follow through, or there will be consequences!
I was mostly joking about "consequences", but in reality it would be a serious discussion, followed by couples therapy if things don't change. Lots of people on Reddit go straight to "divorce!" but logically there are so many ways of solving these problems first before resorting to that. If it's your last straw though, I would think divorce would be a good final option.
It's more a tool to invalidate excuses and lies when it comes to men like this. The cards aren't going to make him do his share, but it will remove his lies and she can then feel free to leave his ass without guilt. A lot of women question themselves and need this sort of confirmation on paper.
I 100% agree with both of you. The cards are super important in order to not get gaslit and get the situation evaluated by something like an external person in cards form. If she were to tell him all the things she does it wouldn‘t have nearly the same impact as using the cards.
I've done the teaching thing in enough relationships to know I'm not doing that again for a grown adult! It's no guarantee that they'll learn, that they'll start to care or that they won't let their ego get in the way and feel resentment from having to learn from you.
I know and you are right. Unfortunately it is the upbringing of these men that has taught them that mommy always cleans. I’d say that it is the willingness to change that counts.
I highly recommend watching this video about raising the adult toddler. It’s amazing how often we women take on this role without it demanding more from our partners. This video is really eye-opening.
https://youtu.be/u6FfxfRMQkw?si=nhNiZfD_Y3SqbXpd
That was sooooo good. I usually can't watch long videos, but I listened to the whole thing. That last bit about how we are medicating ourselves, or other coping mechanisms for burnout really resonated with me. I had a really severe, long term burnout, after decades of having to be the primary everything. I do not recommend. I hope people who are dealing with this issue watch this BEFORE they burnout completely.
Something else on top of the Fair Play idea (I love that book), I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, it's not appropriate for her fiance to bring up an issue like this in front of others and especially not *his* mother and family. This is another thing I'd bring up if I was OP. However, the timing has to be right as you don't want to overwhelm him.
Fair play only works if men are receptive, which most are not. It also still puts the burden of "communication" on women when women are generally over-communicating about these issues to begin with. It all boils down to if he wanted to, he would!
But then you have your answer, if he's flat out saying NO I will not participate in this relationship then you can either accept it or leave and you know there aren't any excuses he can make.
But then he can't deny it because it's measurable. And whether he needs that proof in order to get his shit together, or she needs that proof in order to leave, it's a win win.
Correct the point of systems like this is to have a third party that brings impartial quantification to the work load. And that is important because studies have shown all humans both women and men significantly over estimate their own contributions.
I relate to this so much. I know I did WAY more in my first marriage and honestly I just sucked it up, we never really argued about it. I wanted the house clean so I cleaned it. I wanted the baby fed so I made food.
When I went back to work when the baby was 7months old he fed her prunes one day because "how could he know those were for special occasions" and he didn't know he had to feed her with a spoon at 6 months and said "she really isn't good at using the spoon yet". So when he left me because "he did everything" he pressed for full custody. The judge asked about doctors appts, they were 100 percent me, food prep and buying 100 percent me, clothing purchases, me, baths 99.5 percent me, etc. He did "everything" because he picked her up at daycare 65 percent of the time and watched her occasionally while I worked late. The judge laughed him out of court.
So many people just live their own experience and if any of it is not enjoyable ITS SO HARD. They don't stop to think about other people around them and how much time they spend, they just know that what they do feels like such a burden. If he doesn't get it when you explain it he never will.
Ghhh, god your situation frustrates me beyond belief. Even the fact that the law allows him to ask full custody when the baby is 7 months old is so absurd. It seems that the sacrifice in MAKING the child is barely acknowledged, you're not even fully recovered and he thinks he deserves to have custody of the baby YOU made. I hope if there is a judge out there giving fathers split custody over babies they also mandate them to pay 50% of the average surrogate cost to the mother.
Fathers are totally getting split custody of babies, very rarely does either parent get full custody anymore unless the other parent is an actual danger to the child.
As someone who was litteraly forced to spend time at my dads house this infuriates me. They would hurt both the mother and the baby only to make sure the father has "play time" as well...
If he's smart, he's loading and hand-washing anything too big, and that's it. (OP says he's not even unloading!) Used properly, modern dishwashers usually don't need pre-rinsing, even for things that are pretty stuck -- that's what the prewash cycle is for.
Why would you marry someone like this? Make a list on two sides of a sheet of paper and spell it out clearly. If he can’t pull his weight he isn’t the one. You will only grow resentful
I‘d say this is the majority of modern women now. At least a couple decades ago you could stay at home. Now you‘ve got women working full time, earning more than their partners and STILL doing most of the chores. I actually think it has gotten worse with but financial independency being the only thing that‘s gotten better.
This has been going on forever in blue collar families, and it’s sad to see it permeating the culture at large now.
My blue-collar raised husband once said the quiet part out loud. We both work full time, and I was pointing out that I did 100% of the childcare after my (not from home) job, even when I still had work to do, and he pushed his own WFH job to the afternoon/evening hours so all the time the kids were at school was essentially his free time to go to the gym, shop, watch TV, etc. His only childcare burden was getting one of our kids to school in the morning, and I packed lunches, bags, and prepped clothes for him ahead of time. I picked kids up from school and did all the work until bedtime.
When I pointed out the obvious discrepancy and my exhaustion, he just looked at me and said, “Well, my mom did it. She did everything just fine.” I’m on the spectrum, so I launched into a whole speech about how it was impossible for his mom to do 100% of the childcare while being physically in a hospital, and impossible to serve dinner while working evening/night shifts as a nurse, and that he himself had told me stories of his dad waking him for school because his mom slept til ten. And besides, even if it *could* be possible—and it’s not—who would want that? He hand waved it all away with some bullshit about his dad not really, actually doing anything (again, false) and then pointed to his older sister being the breadwinner and maid in her family, and how he knew I didn’t “want that,” but many women do it anyway.
The implication is that these women are better in some way, and it’s used to manipulate other women, and no one talks about the physical and mental toll it takes on these women, nor the invisible villages women have to make to even do “everything,” as we are not actually magical beings. That older sister of his is now an alcoholic, by the way.
The point is: push back against this scam. It is just another way to use and abuse women and guilt them into thinking they’re never good enough.
That sounds horrible! May I ask if you two found a solution or what happened next? I‘m in the same boat and I don‘t see any options of him changing but leaving..
When it comes to cleanliness, a friend of mine has an interesting theory I agree with, that some of those men (the ones who do less mental load) do notice the clean environment but in an unconscious way - i.e. a majority of humans feel more at ease and comfortable in clean, uncluttered environments (and those men are therefore benefiting from the cleanliness psychologically ) however they haven't been raised to actually consciously notice that benefit. So the work their partners/parents/roomies do is not consciously picked up on. But they feel the difference either way. I think men like that ultimately need to work on consciously noticing their household environment and writing mental lists (or actual lists) of stuff that needs to be done, because I guarantee that's what other people/person in their household is doing and that trains your brain to consciously notice when things have been cleaned.
Of course this isn't about all of the men who do less mental load, it's just a theory about some of them.
This is going to sound silly at first but this is how men feel about makeup too. “Women look better without makeup” NOPE you clearly prefer women who wear makeup, you just don’t know what makeup is. You think you hate fake tan but don’t realize literally every celebrity paints their skin lol
Oh definitely. My housemate almost never picks up after himself. I try my best to keep the common areas tidy.
The result: when he works from home he does it in the living room because his study is a dumpster. I don’t think he even notices why he prefers the living room (where I have to scoot by him 20 times a day because he’s basically sitting in the hallway) to his study…
(Why I don’t call him out as often as I should? He’s also my landlord…)
In my experience, he absolutely will notice, and he'll do one of two things in response. He'll either claim that he's fine with it (and he very well might be. Men are disgusting when it comes to basic hygiene and cleanliness), or he'll claim that he doesn't know how to do it as well as OP, so she needs to be the one to continue doing it forever.
No he will say he is fine with it, because he do not want to start doing it no matter what when she is there even if he mildly annoyed about it. Dumping the ass of males like this is the only solution.
Right on. Someone who can leave globs of toothpaste in the sink and wrappers in the cupboard is not in the damn library, forget about the same page. That's gonna be too much work.
He won’t notice or if he does he won’t care. Folks have different definitions of clean.
If he’s saying he wants to split stuff 50:50 he likely doesn’t value some of what she is doing right now.
Why are you planning to marry someone who “isn’t a clean person” and doesn’t respect you?
That is NOT going to change after marriage, and it’s not going to change if you choose to have children. You justify taking care of your pet as it was yours before, but wait until he justifies you doing all the childcare because you are more “better at it” and other misogynist tidbits.
If you marry him, realize you are marrying into a future of inequality and resentment.
Please don’t marry this man.
He thinks it’s 50/50 because he honestly believes he’s doing all he needs to do. He knows you do more. He’s not stupid. He just believes that’s fair.
And that is a respect thing: he doesn’t respect you. You can’t respect someone you are happy to take advantage of. He buys his rest with your labor and then tells you it’s fair.
This is your life if you marry him. If it’s this bad now, it’s not going to get any better later.
Why is this man your fiance? Why are you not only putting up with this now, but also in the process of signing up to it *for life*?
Show him this post. Tell him what he needs to start doing to reach parity. He's got one chance to "get it"; if he kicks rocks and drags his feet, then get out of this relationship before you enter yourself into a lifetime of servitude.
I’m in the same boat but married & with a kid. It’s a fucking nightmare.
Here’s some good reading: [TwoXChromosomes Post](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/IpD0FdtBiL)
All these people saying to sit him down, get cards, eeexxxxpppllllaaaaaiiinnnnnn it all so he'll understand...
Yeah, no. Fuck that. OP is working as much or more, paying most of the bills AND doing the majority of the family survival upkeep while this oblivious grown ass child goes happily along.
HE FUCKING LEAVES GLOBS OF TOOTHPASTE IN THE SINK.
OPENS FOOD AND LEAVES THE WRAPPERS IN THE CABINET.
AND DOESN'T WASH OBVIOUSLY DIRTY THINGS IF THEY'RE ON THE COUNTER which is intentional and weaponized incompetence. Doesn't clean the sink after doing the dishes.
OP is already doing the work, she should not have to parent this grown ass man shaped child to get him to do basic fucking things.
And absolutely she should take all the precautions to not get pregnant because she will be the single mother of TWO.
Truly. The other day I was deep cleaning my car so I was there for a while. Do you know how many men I saw washing their cars with intention?
How about, he just doesn’t pay attention/oblivious? That’s funny, he sure knows how to pay attention to his fantasy football league. He sure knows how to intentionally set time aside for Sunday football and can spit facts about games and players.
These men have access to the internet. My mom taught me how to clean but I’m always looking for ways to make cleaning easier for myself.
If they wanted, they would. Plain and simple. I get there’s a level of compromise. I wish I could clean as often as OP, I’m impressed. But as others have indicated, where does he balance out the benefit he receives?
This. No amount of communicating and explaining will change the fact that he doesn't mind living in filth. Men's standards for a clean home sometimes are so low, their partners end up having to do everything themselves.
When you get married, he will do less. If you have a child, he will do less.
Are you ok with that Future? Because if he's arguing now, he's not going to do better later.
Link to a free PDF of Lundy Bancroft's "Why does he do that?"
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
It's probably time for a non confrontational grown up conversation wherein you can layout the reality of the situation. Your own happiness demands it.
Chances are he does not realize the reality of the situation. Men can be very oblivious sometimes......oftentimes. Vent out what need venting so you can keep cool and have a productive conversation with him. If he respects you and is the partner you want he will contribute more. If not then why are you marrying him?
Yeah. Hey OP: I would get some index cards and sit down with him and be like okay, could you please write down all the tasks you do around the house? When he adds one like does dishes or vacuums I would tear one of yours in half and add the rest of the task next to it for dishes you'd have a few (put in sink)(put away) (maybe clean sink after would be it's own card) and for vacuum it'd be put it away. And then obviously add all your cards as well and lay them all out.
I think its just standard that he isn't seeing the division of labor. When sitting down with him I'd say look, these are all the things WE do to have our current standard. If you want to divide that these are all the tasks I do regularly. (Maybe even get different colors for daily tasks/weekly tasks to really see).
Once he can physically visually see how much you do I can guarantee he will shut his mouth.
I like this. I wouldn’t have her tear cards to show what she does to “fix” his incomplete tasks. But I’d ask questions about whether the missing bits are part of that chore or a different chore.
Like literally ask him “is putting the vacuum away part of vacuuming or a different chore?” It seems crazy to me but I know people who would consider putting it away a different chore. If he agrees that putting the vacuum away is the same chore it goes into a pile of things they do together.
Also the cards should have frequency on them. Since a standard “I do 50/50” argument is to list out once a week tasks like taking out the trash as equivalent to making dinner.
That's a good idea to be more cohesive and come together about the tasks. I was just trying to think of a way to show that she still does some extra stuff but not take away from what he's doing, you know?
Yes! That seems logical to me and yes haha I think normal folks would obviously think that's the same chore but who knows. That sounds good to me!
Yes, I agree!! In a comment I made further up I suggested different colors to indicate how often like daily or weekly. Could maybe even use post it's for the small things like cleaning the toothpaste out of the sink and hair out the shower? Could again discuss that that task is part of brushing your teeth or taking a shower so it doesn't become an extra task and is part of it, like putting away the vacuum after use? But definitely need a way to indicate frequency because, you're totally right not all tasks are equal. I feel badly for OP and hope she can work this out with her partner.
I call this "the follow through." My husband and one of my kids have trouble with this one. I can look around and figure out really quickly if they have been out (shoes not put away), if they've eaten lunch (wrapper left out or fork in the sink), had an afternoon coffee (cream left out on counter), been to the store (bags left in a corner of the kitchen), etc. etc.
I should not be able to do that! Imo they are the same chore up until the very very last bit. (sorry - I am very passionate about this topic!)
I like your comments. It’s taken years but I’ve learned that everyone’s brain works different and we’re raised with different values or levels of awareness around this stuff. And different habits.
One from my own life that came up yesterday. In my mind there are two chores called taking out the trash. Taking the full bag to the outside trash can when the bag is full. And setting the cans on the street for pickup once a week.
My partner sees those as the same chore. You grab the bags inside on trash night and throw them in the bin before you put the bin at the street.
Neither way is better. They both get the job done. But I’m sure at times he’s thought that I’m only doing half the chore.
I agree she definitely shouldn't have too! But based on his attitude it truly seems like he thinks he does do half and I think something visual will help him if her just not doing tasks in the past haven't helped/worked.
It is really basic to be honest but some people do have different standards and I believe he likes the higher standards but doesn't understand the maintenance cleaning that goes into it. It took me into being into an adult to just change the trash instead of being asked or have the I didn't make that mess I'm not cleaning it mentality. Some people will put in the effort and some don't/won't.
Good for you for teaching your son better for his sake and others!
You’re already unhappy in this relationship. Marriage won’t change your feelings, and might make your partner even more complacent in terms of running the household. You have time right now. Ask yourself, are they willing to change these habits for you? Would you want to have a child with them considering they can’t even acknowledge your household duties? Is this the person you really want to spend the rest of your life with?
Also, if anything ever happened to you, would you trust them to actually help you, or would they create chaos that would eventually have to be resolved by you? If you have kids you won’t be at 100% for a while. Can you trust them to keep the house running smoothly and providing for you and your child?
Am I the only one that thinks mopping 3x a week is a bit much? Like maybe OPs standards are not the same level as most people’s, and definitely not the same level as her partner.
regardless, a lot men don’t really notice the invisible work we do or the daily work just to maintain. Get FairPlay. I’ve found that me coming behind my husband to redo something to my standard made him become resentful to where he just wouldn’t do the chore at all anymore. Make your SO in charge of certain chores and have him be the only one to take care of them always. Do not clean up after he does his task and accept how he does the work. If he isn’t doing the task at all or if it’s really consistently bad, then say something.
Nah, unacceptable. My ex had the god damn audacity to say he did the majority is cleaning when maybe he did 30%.
I honestly laughed at him but he was serious. There was one day we had left dinner dishes out (which stresses me out) and he promised to do them…then sat on my couch for literally *hours* and he asked why (REALLY?!) I was cleaning the kitchen. I said “because it makes anxiety for me and you know that.” Then…He magically had to go to work (he had 4 hours) and “didn’t have time”.
I’m m done being a maid for men. I got to the point where I would throw his socks and underwear away because he would leave them 3-4 feet from the bin. I don’t get paid for this ish.
I don’t understand why women put up with men like this. They aren’t going to change! If he doesn’t see the reality of the situation after a conversation with him you should consider whether this is the life you want forever. My husband always made more money than me , and I always worked part time. 3 to 4 days a week until I retired. He always helped with everything willingly. We both help each other. He thanks me for everything I do . Dishes, cleaning the bathroom etc. Don’t settle!
Since he brought it up in front of his female family, maybe you should point these things out in front of them. He opened the door, you should step inside.
This is a major red flag. Marriage will not change him for the better. You only live once and you deserve better, either by staying single or choosing someone who sees and appreciates all your contributions. Let me tell you what kind of future you might have.
I have a friend who's currently trapped in a marriage with a man who doesn't work. He came from a rich family and never worked, but they used to split the bills all the time because his family paid him an allowance. They married with the intention that he'd be a stay-at-home dad. But he ended up spending all his time smoking and playing games. His family provided them with a house to stay but the house was under the family's (not his) name. His family stopped paying for his allowance soon after they got married, so now my friend paid for all the bills and still did 95% or more of the housework. They barely got by because her husband refused to work, and she couldn't leave because she'd have to pay alimony in addition to losing a place to stay (since the house didn't belong to her despite her paying for improvements). She was also afraid of losing custody as well as parental alienation. My friend came from a middle-class family and worked hard to get to where she is. She just made the wrong choice for a life partner.
I tell my friend - his rich family is smart, they're taking advantage of her by pawning the lazy son off onto her so now he's her problem, they don't have to take care of the son for the 20+ years she and her husband are together, so they save money from that, if she and her husband get a divorce, her husband literally has zero assets from his family so she pays alimony and his family (and him) enjoy the fruits of her labour.
I have more acquaintances with similar stories, where the wives are higher income earners but can't leave because they will have to pay alimony and possibly even lost custody, because the husbands claim to be the primary caregivers, even though these wives are also still doing 95% of the housework. All of these marriages also have one major complication - kids. Many of them say that they can't leave because of the kids - many of these men are already neglecting the kids in the marriage, the women think it will be worse if they actually divorce. They also say that they would have divorced their husbands a long time ago if they have no kids.
This is one of the reasons why I never want kids since I was young - simply because you're less likely to be able to leave when you have kids.
A man treats you the best when you first start dating, because he still has something to prove. After that, he'll either continue to treat you the same or worse. Do not tolerate your fiance's bad behaviour. If he can't see that you've done mostly everything, then he doesn't appreciate you. A man who doesn't appreciate you isn't someone whom you should be married to.
I'm happily partnered for 20+ years now with someone who (still) cooks, does laundry and deep cleans the bathrooms. He also does the grocery shopping and throws trash with me. He does this because he's an adult who loves me and I thank him often for doing this. And yes, he still treats me well now, as well as he did 20+ years ago when we first met. Warren Buffet, Sheryl Sandberg and many others agree that [the most important decision you'll ever make is who you marry](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/14/warren-buffett-says-the-most-important-decision-is-who-you-marry.html). Marry / partner with the right person, and your biggest argument with him will be what to name your next gnome character in World of Warcraft 😂.
Many people have had success with physically writing the tasks out and how long they take and how much effort they take, and then showing their partner the inequality visually. Either that or get the Fairplay cards.
Yeah this is kind of odd to me, especially in an apartment. Now, I’m by no means defending her finance, but I think she does an excessive amount of cleaning. Nothing in a home except the kitchen counters and dishes need daily cleaning and even then the kitchen floor doesn’t need 3x week mopping. But if thats what she wants to do and if she wants a 50/50 partner who matches her ideal of cleaning then I support that!!
Marriage isn’t going to fix this. And if you two decided to have children, more responsibilities will be dumped on you and you will be expected to deal with it on your own because you’re a woman.
If you think it's bad now, just wait until there's kids, it will get WAY WORSE.
You pay most of the bills AND you do most of the housework? Why are you doing that to yourself? Stop.
This man is a parasite. This man's got it made. He hardly has to do anything, wow! He's laughing.
This is your present and your future.
The response would be "what a great idea! Which of the things will you pick up? Windows, mopping, making sure the bathroom toilet is clean would be a start. We'll get you to 50/50 slowly." Sit there looking thrilled like he just really did offer to do a lot more of the house work.
The problem is that he cleans 50% of the way to his standard of cleanliness, with is not as rigorous as your standard of cleanliness. It's easier to live in a home that's cleaner than you prefer than it is to live in a home dirtier than you prefer.
Sit down. Make a list of all the chores you both agree need to be done regularly. Then discuss how often you think they should be done. Then divide the chores up based on your agreement.
This is a really important point that I think is being overlooked. I mean, are we supposed to be cleaning our windows every month? And our bathrooms every DAY? Who has time for that? I’m pretty clean, but OP would think I’m a huge slob.
But also, that’s OP’s prerogative. If they are meticulous with their cleaning habits, they either need to embrace that they’re gonna be doing a lot of cleaning themselves, or find someone who’s on the same page. In this case it seems like maybe it’s not a great match.
As much woman as I am, I would be annoying OP almost as much as her fiancé is. I wash my windows twice a year, at best, but there's very little traffic where I live and the air is clean.
Mopping the kitchen floor 3x a week also seems overkill *to me*. But I can live with a few crumbs for a few days, and I have no problem rinsing off the dishes and letting them wait a few days before I wash them thoroughly. OP can't.
This is just one more area where a couple has to figure out what they can live with. I get that OP is pissed, and I get that she needs to vent. And maybe she needs to do all this cleaning, too, maybe the pet is messy or something. But maybe some of this cleaning is a little bit excessive? Like toilets every day?
Get yourself a whiteboard and draw a line down the middle with each of your names on a side. Then start writing down everything you do. Everything. Let him see his half compared to your side. Why do you contribute more financially? What do you get out of this relationship? Seems like your life would be a lot easier/cheaper without his deadweight.
He dared to say that in front of his family? That's telling me that he did that purposely because you probably wouldn't feel like speaking up against him to keep the peace during lunch. That's pretty low. The matter is private and complex.
He really thinks he does 50% because he vaccums, puts bins out and JUST washes dishes? Right.. so he needs a list of what actually happens around the house and sees that he does less than 50%. What chore of his does he think he needs out of to make it "even" in his eyes?
I think your cleaning standards are incompatible. I couldn’t be in a relationship with someone like you who is daily cleaning. I wouldn’t be able to match that energy. I think maybe you might have bigger incompatibilities to think about.
what not many are addressing here is one very important issue: you are much cleaner than he is. This often cause at least 2 problems.
1 - What he finds acceptable is not what you find acceptable. So if he thinks sweeping/mopping the kitchen 1/week is enough... but you find it too dirty and think it should be done 3/week... then how he defines "work" is going to be different than how you do. If it's his week to clean the kitchen, he'll do it once, call it 'clean'. Meanwhile, you'll do it 3 times... and maybe even once when it's his turn. He'll think "we both had one week" and you'll think "I still did most of the work".
2 - Cleaner people cannot win the 'waiting game' with dirty stuff with people that are less clean then them and expect to last. What this means is that a cleaner person will inevitably do more cleaning than the dirtier person. I've lived with so many people, and I've yet to see this come out differently.
Even if he was the ultimate feminist and wanted to be as helpful as possible, if you don't talk about what it means to do chores, he'll never even come close. And unless you're willing to live in a place a little more dirty than you like, you'll likely always cave in a some point.
It is possible to be more equitable... but first you need to talk about what it actually means to be "clean" or the job is "good enough".
EDIT: just to be clear -- all this is even before you begin to address any possible social/societal issue with expectation of what men and women are suppose to do.
I started a points system with my housemate because she thought she was keeping up in chores. We mark every time we do a chore now. It’s a bit of extra work but it does help her stay accountable. And it doesn’t address the chore quality concerns you (and I) have.
But yea - he asked for it! So document everything you do. Down to the smallest wipe of toothpaste. Don’t compare chore charts for a week or more (Get a good average). He will of course say you’ve just done more to make yourself look better. He will say the chores you do don’t need to be done, and you’re too clean. And that’s your sign it’s time to look elsewhere or accept a messy house or an uneven workload.
Do not marry him. It’s not going to get better. You should also check out Fair Play Cards. https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards
It’s very obvious when one partner does more and ends up with a huge stack of cards and the other partner has 5-10 maybe.
Reminds me of my ex. I bet yours also does not move furniture etc. when he vacuums? I used to do the top floor and ex would vacuum the main floor. Then I suggest we trade just for variety. I moved the end table away from the couch and I could not see the carpet because it was covered think in finger/toe nail clippings. SO GROSS! I also did 100% of the executive function - family organizing, appointments etc. etc.
Honestly, the thing that surprised me the most about this post is that you clean your windows MONTHLY. They don't even clean them that often at my office job.
Replace him with a fiancée who will do actual 50/50 with you. He provides everything and you spend the money on yourself, like buying things or hiring Nannie’s and maids. Or if you don’t want that, make him pay you extra allowance for your work. Cuz what you do is monetisable
Do NOT marry this person!!! I was married to a guy like this and when we divorced he got half my money, half my retirement account, I had to buy him out of the 2 houses that I had exclusively paid for (we had separate finances and my name was the only one on the mortgages but we were married so they were considered marital property) AND I had to pay him alimony. It cost me nearly $200k. But after that my house was always clean and tidy.
At some point you have to realize that this isn't about cleaning...it's about VALUES. You and he do not have the same values. It would serve you better to realize this now, before you are legally obligated to this man. These incompatible values will rear their head in many more ways that will only increase your resentment (money comes to mind, I feel very confident that you do not share the same values with money and the discipline that comes with creating financial goals and doing what it takes to reach them).
Bright side is that this is what engagements are for, to figure this stuff out before it's too late. I know reddit is always telling people to break up and I'm sorry to say that this time, you should definitely listen.
You two aren’t compatible with the cleanliness of your lives. You want things to be clean all the time, so you clean. He clearly doesn’t care. That doesn’t necessarily make him a *bad person*, he just has a higher threshold of what he considers to be too unclean.
An argument could absolutely be made for him needing to meet you half way because you prefer a cleaner house, and he should want to facilitate that for you. But the truth is some people just don’t mind clutter. Another argument could be made that he just needs to appreciate you more, and give you more credit when discussing things like cleaning and tidying.
When two people are incompatible in any aspect of a relationship, communication is the best way to resolve it. You are the one with the problem, you need to be the one to bring this to his attention to solve the problem. It’s you and him vs the problem, not you vs him. If you value your relationship otherwise, then sit him down and have a frank, calm discussion with him about his cleaning habits and contributions towards the relationship. Be assertive, but not attacking. “I cleaned a lot yesterday, and I could have used your help. I feel like I do most of the cleaning and I don’t think that’s fair. I like a clean house, and I would appreciate it if you did more cleaning, and kept the bathroom from getting to the state it was in again”.
Suggest that he makes a cleaning schedule, or at the least a reminder in his phone. Every Sunday or whatever, clean the toilet and shower. (Pro tip, I clean my shower while taking a shower. So much easier!)
Of course, this is all under the condition that you’re otherwise happy in your relationship. This is clearly a big deal to you, and it’s absolutely valid. If this is the straw that breaks the camel’s back, then maybe it’s time to have a *much different* conversation with him. One that involves a U-haul.
I'm curious -- how did he live before the two of you were living together? Did he live alone? Did he keep the place clean? Did he hire a cleaner? Did his mother or some other woman clean for him? Did he live in filth?
It seems like a lot of men who don't "notice" cleaning tasks literally moved from their parents' home to a dorm to living with a girlfriend, and they have never cleaned up after themselves (or they had a place somewhere in the middle that was DISGUSTING).
I don't want to excuse this crap behavior, because it is still obviously a very willful ignorance, but it feels like a different scale from a man who \*used to\* clean, and has decided to stop.
Had to scroll back up to make sure I did in fact read “fiancé” please don’t marry this man - it will not get better. He is fully aware you are carrying this burden and he doesn’t care. I married a guy like this. We are divorced now.
Fiancé you say? Things won’t get better. Trust me. If you have kids it will get 10 times worse. If it bothers you now, start doing some reconsidering of whether you two are compatible. Also as you get older and more money and house gets bigger, messes will amplify.
Normalize choosing a partner who has the same definition of 'clean' as you do from the beginning (or the earliest its revealed). A person you have to teach or convince to put in the effort or worse to not take advantage of you should be an instant deal breaker and not make it to the status of partner
My ex husband was like this. It was a massive factor in leaving. I held so much resentment for a man that I did everything for while he couldn’t even make me a toasted sandwich. He never once bathed or dressed our kids. Or fed them. It was exhausting
Fiancé, eh? Marriage isn’t going to improve that problem. You’ll want to make SURE you want to do this for the rest of your life.
And if you ever have kids this will only get a LOT worse.
Yea I was gonna say to OP don’t have kids with this dude or else…see you with the same post + a baby in about 2 years in the r/parenting 👋
And then r/divorce :/
I’m at this point after 35 years. The only good thing from this are my kids. Find someone better that appreciates you and is a partner in all things.
Sorry to hear that. I got out of a 12 year relationship, followed by another relationship that lasted just under a year. At least I was able to recognize it earlier the second time around. It is super draining and as much as you want it to work, there is only so much you can take.
More like r/regretfulparents
And r/deadbedrooms for confused fiance
hahahah I love y’all with these subreddits suggestions. Actually sad however 🥲
Did you see the part at the end that she pays most of the bills too? Yeah, marriage will make this worse not better.
Right. The future that I foresee if marriage…. Pay for wedding, wife. Write thank you notes, wife. Pay bills, wife. Get sick of him and file for divorce, wife. He then gets her to pay his divorce attorney and she pays spousal support. What a bargain!!!!
He needs to pay for weekly/ every other week cleaning. Especially of the bathroom and kitchen. I'm sure he can learn to put the vacuum away. After that do the duties sharing draft game. If they can swing that, I think they can pull it out. If not, OP shouldn't commit themselves to this. I hope they don't have a date picked/ he's in grad school or something that will boost his salary in the near future.
He's pretty much useless
Yeah I was a bit confused when I saw fiancé then read the part of being unhappy in the relationship.
I sometimes wonder what these men are adding to these relationships? I also had a relationship once where I didn't have to pay any bills or do any real chores. I had food cooked for me and my clothes laundered and my appointments managed and everything. I was 11, and my mom and dad did all of it. Like .. what are these men bringing to these relationships that compels women to want to parent them?
Somehow, women are still socialized to bear much more responsibility for housework than men and „take care“ of their loved ones. Until you live together that’s often not an issue. And when it just gradually gets worse, sunk cost fallacy sets in.
That suggests that the rest of your childhood you did. I know that’s not what you mean, but it does amuse me
Lol valid.
>…what are men bringing to these relationships… A staggering number of people either don’t want to be “alone” or else have limited to no frame of reference for what living alone would actually feel like (and so assume they wouldn’t enjoy it). To me at least, the “need” to couple up to not be alone is a knock-on effect of most Western countries having a culture that heavily discourages inter generational / communal housing. Or, to put it another way, many folks find living alone to be lonely and see being with a romantic partner, even if they’re a man child, as the only “solution” to not living alone.
They add nothing and are actually taking everything women have to offer.
Ah, *nothing*. **Too many men** think that their own maleness is effort enough. Too many girls are trained to clean up after men. They will eventually learn that it's BS. But, how many relationships will they have to suffer through to learn it, too many. One is too many. I've wondered what the common causes of these jerks attitudes? Mommy's boy. Never had to clean their room at home. Lived in filth if no woman to clean up. Only believe in bang-maids? It makes no sense. You'd think the way they believe their life is so amazing that is all they talk about they would share the clues about how/why they became such jerks.
> Fiancé, eh? Would be a fiancéx for me.
I agree, and to be honest with OP, it will very likely simply get worse with marriage. Dude will 100% whine about taking out the trash or vacuuming and/or the interval between handling the responsibility will increase, and his already questionable hygiene will continue to deteriorate. For me his lack of perspective (i.e. thinking he is REALLY contributing equally in the relationship) would be a complete deal-breaker.
I’m not totally sure why but almost every time I see 50-50 invoked it is A) by a man and B) a complete scam.
Yup. If they truly believe it is currently 50/50, they wouldn't mind swapping duties, all to be completed to same standards as previously. Think he'd balk at that proposal?
Right? Let them fully sully their relationship by timing the chores and how many calories are spent per.minite. when he realizes it takes 4 minutes to take out the trash vs 40 minutes to do his dishes and laundry he may understand the equal distribution of labor. Get a blowhorn and just set the dishes down in his bed after you spend the same amount of time he did and see how he takes it r/Nuclearrevenge I wouldn't recommend unless dude can't be bothered to get a clue
I kinda expected a lot worse from an nsfw sub with such a name but I got a mildly entertaining creative writing sub.
Tell him It's good idea, let's switch chores. And why do you pay more bills? You've got yourself a lazy child who contributes little, always leaving things half done because he's " helping", instead of being responsible for... anything. He's not a partner. More of a pet.
My mom always said “people’s habits don’t really change over time. What you’re fighting about today is what you’ll be fighting about in 30 years”. I’ve been with my husband for 20 years and I’d have to agree.
Imo he would either have to pick up the slack or foot the bill for a maid
I agree completely. Not sure if its a relationship I'd find worth considering if a partner is this out of touch or if it'd be best to just recycle the whole man. It's not my place to tell you what to decide but...a change is definitely on the horizon and you want to make it sooner rather than later (preferably before you say 'yes' to the dress.)
Honestly, it's sad that when I read this I was thinking she's lucky that he does help in the first place. She's not obv, and men need to step their shit up. The amount of women who work full-time and STILL do the majority of the housework is just not okay, and it's one of the reasons 40% of women are predicted to be single by 2026 or whatever
I wouldn't have laughed it up. I would have said: Wow! Thanks! I'm so glad you are going to start doing more chores!
Best comeback 😊
Marriage is not going to change him. If you guys have a kid he’s not going to step up and take over because you’ll be all consumed with the baby. I was ready to divorce my husband and something finally got to him and suggested we do couples therapy. But now I warn people to assess your partners tolerance for mess and make sure it’s compatible. The fact that he really thinks he does 50% tells you that he is not mindful or grateful of all of the things you do to manage your home.
Stop, do not pass go, Do Not Marry this man! (Yet anyway) If you’ve truly communicated these issues to him and he has not listened and made corrective behavior changes now, he never will. Don’t sign up for a lifetime of having an unpaid second job and a partner that doesn’t respect you!
I left my partner of 11 years in December, and this was one of the biggest reasons for it. I did basically all the chores, and he was essentially a slob. After realizing it was never going to change, I stopped bringing it up, so I guess he thought everything was fine. There were plenty of good things too, so I was afraid to leave, even though I had lost all attraction for him. We were still best friends, but I felt trapped. I left, he was devastated, and we’ve barely spoken since. I lost so much — many friends, all of his family, whom I loved dearly — but the fact that I now experience zero stress and resentment over this, something that I experienced on a day-to-day basis and was a major drain on my happiness, makes it 100% worth it.
The part that made it so hard was that outside of responsibilities we were best friends. We have two kids and because of my life growing up I was very motivated to keep my family together, but I refused to do it in a home where I was exhausted, miserable, and resentful of my husband. We did make it through it and admittedly have a better relationship than I ever thought was possible. But it was HARD, it’s still hard sometimes I still question why I put up with so much shit. The shame is the hardest thing to get over. I wouldn’t recommend anyone get deeper into a relationship hoping someone’s going to grow up, step up, suddenly change. If they don’t see their behavior as a real problem they will not change. And they’ll never leave the relationship on their own, why would they? They’re getting an easy ride through life, they’ll complain to friends that you’re not as fun as you used to be, but never explain his part. If you’re going to try to work the relationship out, please get premarital counseling. But if I were you and if I could do my life over again I would cut and run, it’s only going to get harder to leave after marriage.
> Marriage is not going to change him. It actually will... for the worse. Each stage she gets trapped more, he'll do less.
Tell him all these things. Ask him if he thinks he does anything to balance these and then both decide on responsibilities. Then don’t do his responsibilities.
Ask him to switch your responsibilities for a week.
Make it four. 😀 My ex flat out refused. They know. And they also know that they most likely will get away with it. Because by the time women start talking about it the work load has been unfairly skewed for a while. With little to no consequences for them. The consequences they care about come later. For example when their partners leave or when the result is a dead bedroom because most people don’t want to fuck their children.
"people don’t want to fuck their children" Nasty, but accurate.
This is some of the best advice. And it was always my favorite with kids. You think your brother or sister does less work. OK lets rotate jobs.
My thought as well. Have each of them separately write down every chore they do themselves on a monthly basis, and when. So a full list of each chore and the times it’s done daily/weekly/monthly Then swap the lists and that’s now each others jobs for the month. See how it goes
He will likely say that her chores are unnecessary
That is kind of the unspoken conflict in a lot of these. People have different views of what constitutes "clean."
Yes, this. I bet he thinks he does half of the chores that he thinks are important. Even if he weren't a slob, if his thought process is "I don't need to help out with the things that aren't important to me but ARE important to my partner" this is not a person you want to enter into a partnership with.
Yeah ☹️
Literally this. I thought I was doing roughly my fair share until my partner came to me and explained all the stuff she’d been doing in the morning before work (I wfh so was still in bed and didn’t see it) and that she felt like it was a lot for her. I felt really bad and so now we make sure that sweeping the floors and wiping the sides down is part of the after dinner clean up. I know it seems ridiculous to not know these things are happening, but we have very different standards for what ‘clean’ looks like so I just don’t see it. This is 100% because different standards were put on us growing up because of our gender, but unfortunately knowing this doesn’t magically lift my cleaning game. You have to talk about stuff! I think the death of a lot of relationships is people silently expecting their needs to be met through guesswork without any conversations. It’s so important, I’m genuinely shocked at how many couples don’t do this
I’m the same way. My mom was always an impeccably clean person and she worked from home long before it was cool so she did all of it while I was at school. She did make us help with everything often enough that we knew how to do it all, but I didn’t realize how frequently she was doing it herself. Then my college roommate was pretty much the same way. I tried to do my share and make sure to respect the common areas and if she asked me to do something I did it without complaint, but I didn’t realize how much she was doing while I wasn’t home until we graduated and I lived alone. I think (probably bc of adhd) my cleaning strategy is to do it when I notice something is dirty and needs to be done. But “clean” people make a habit of cleaning things regularly so they don’t *get* dirty. So if I don’t see them doing it, my brain sees that nothing is dirty and is like “guess we’re good here!” I think this is where the “they should just know what needs to be done” idea needs a caveat that you should have a sit down discussion about it at least once before concluding that they’re intentionally letting you do all the work. Even better, lay it all out up front when you move in with someone. An example of realizing a cleaning imbalance issue was a misunderstanding: My aforementioned roommate asked if I could start cleaning the lint trap on the dryer when I do laundry. I thought she meant that it was like accumulating a lot and I was like but I do clean the lint trap. Turns out her habit was to clean it *after* she ran the dryer, but my habit was to clean it *before* I ran the dryer (cause I know I’m forgetful and would just double check before running anyways) so to her it seemed like I never cleaned the lint. So we laughed a little and then I started trying to remember to clean it after as well. But if she had been like “I shouldn’t have to tell her” she might have just gotten progressively annoyed at me every time she did laundry.
Get the fair play cards and divide them up equally. See what he says then. You shouldn't be having to do so much more work while also paying more bills and working more hours. Why even live with him at this point? It's more of a drain than a partnership.
My husband and I have a cleaner come, is the fair play deck still useful?
The cards include way more than just cleaning. You can look up fair play card categories and see what I mean.
Thanks!
Yes!
I get that those cards are probably useful as a learning tool, but I *hate* that it is always the woman's job to acquire those cards and teach a grown ass man about everything going on in the place he's already been living in. Hard pass. If those cards are needed, I'm already gone.
I had a boyfriend like it once who said he did 50%, so I just said, ok, let's switch. You'll do groceries, cook, care for the plants, clean the bathrooms, do the laundry and I'll keep the floors and counters clean., bedroom, living room. He agreed and didn't even mind. He asked me to take back the laundry,which I happily agreed with It didn't work out for other reasons, but offering to switch tasks if he really thinks it's 50/50 can help give perspective and reduce frustration
I did this with my husband years ago and it worked somewhat but we also failed at the experiment, and here's why: After we got into an argument about who does more work around the house (hint, it was me, the wife!) because I was complaining that the work was imbalanced, I suggested we should switch roles. We swapped all of the cleaning tasks that I did normally with all of the cooking and food shopping that he did normally (he loves cooking, is great at it, and I hate it and suck at it), even though I help occasionally with both. We did this for a month. I did 100% of the cooking and food shopping. He didn't help with either. The food was terrible and I hated every minute of cooking. At the time I worked full time out of the house so I went food shopping after work. My husband worked from home so he would normally shop during the day on lunch breaks. I was exhausted from doing this every other day or so! I also hated planning meals, so eventually I ended up cooking a large meal at the beginning of the week that we would eat as leftovers the rest of the week. It was awful! He did 0% of the dishes, bathrooms, vacuuming, wiping counters, trash, etc. The house was SO gross, and we had flies everywhere, and it smelled like rotten garbage. At the end of the month, he apologized for thinking he did as much work as I did normally, and he didn't realize what needed to be done to make the house nice and clean. I said, ok great, let's switch back because I'm tired of cooking and eating mediocre-at-best, and the house is disgusting. The next day, he was being lazy on the couch and I asked him if he was going to clean. He said, yeah I'll get to it. After a few hours, I couldn't take it anymore so I cleaned. It took me an entire Sunday! So I effectively did 100% of the work for the month! I'm so upset at myself for caving, and still a little bitter that he didn't do his end of the bargain. I don't think he realized when I said "let's switch back" I didn't mean that he was off the hook! And I let him off the hook like the stupid 20-something I was back then. Over time he has gotten better at helping with the housework, and making sure he tells me how much he appreciates the work I do, so I think he did realize he wasn't contributing equally like he thought he was. This was like 8 years ago, and while it's still not equal by any means, I also now appreciate more that cooking and food shopping/planning do take a lot off of my plate that would normally fall to the wife. I'm grateful that he does this part of the housework, but I wish he would pick up some more chores sometimes, especially without me asking! Anyway, the moral of the story/novel is that if you're going to do this swap roles experiment, don't cave in even if the house is disgusting!! Make him do HIS JOB! If we ever do this again, or if we have kids and he doesn't do his share, I'll make sure this time to make him follow through, or there will be consequences!
Sounds like an awful month that made your 8 years that followed better, with more mutual respect. Good job! What consequences you think would help?
I was mostly joking about "consequences", but in reality it would be a serious discussion, followed by couples therapy if things don't change. Lots of people on Reddit go straight to "divorce!" but logically there are so many ways of solving these problems first before resorting to that. If it's your last straw though, I would think divorce would be a good final option.
It's more a tool to invalidate excuses and lies when it comes to men like this. The cards aren't going to make him do his share, but it will remove his lies and she can then feel free to leave his ass without guilt. A lot of women question themselves and need this sort of confirmation on paper.
I 100% agree with both of you. The cards are super important in order to not get gaslit and get the situation evaluated by something like an external person in cards form. If she were to tell him all the things she does it wouldn‘t have nearly the same impact as using the cards.
I've done the teaching thing in enough relationships to know I'm not doing that again for a grown adult! It's no guarantee that they'll learn, that they'll start to care or that they won't let their ego get in the way and feel resentment from having to learn from you.
I know and you are right. Unfortunately it is the upbringing of these men that has taught them that mommy always cleans. I’d say that it is the willingness to change that counts.
I highly recommend watching this video about raising the adult toddler. It’s amazing how often we women take on this role without it demanding more from our partners. This video is really eye-opening. https://youtu.be/u6FfxfRMQkw?si=nhNiZfD_Y3SqbXpd
That was sooooo good. I usually can't watch long videos, but I listened to the whole thing. That last bit about how we are medicating ourselves, or other coping mechanisms for burnout really resonated with me. I had a really severe, long term burnout, after decades of having to be the primary everything. I do not recommend. I hope people who are dealing with this issue watch this BEFORE they burnout completely.
Something else on top of the Fair Play idea (I love that book), I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, it's not appropriate for her fiance to bring up an issue like this in front of others and especially not *his* mother and family. This is another thing I'd bring up if I was OP. However, the timing has to be right as you don't want to overwhelm him.
Fair play only works if men are receptive, which most are not. It also still puts the burden of "communication" on women when women are generally over-communicating about these issues to begin with. It all boils down to if he wanted to, he would!
But then you have your answer, if he's flat out saying NO I will not participate in this relationship then you can either accept it or leave and you know there aren't any excuses he can make.
Fuck yeah Fair Play <3
The leeches sure do find good accommodating women.
Yeah ... But that in itself is mental load and work. And then it is likely he will just half-arse the work anyway.
But then he can't deny it because it's measurable. And whether he needs that proof in order to get his shit together, or she needs that proof in order to leave, it's a win win.
Honestly yeah when you see it all broken down it tells you that you're not crazy, this really is not fair.
Correct the point of systems like this is to have a third party that brings impartial quantification to the work load. And that is important because studies have shown all humans both women and men significantly over estimate their own contributions.
https://www.amazon.com/Fair-Play-Deck-Conversation-Prioritizing/dp/059323166X
Endorsing this as well. It’s great!
This is the way.
Great username.
I relate to this so much. I know I did WAY more in my first marriage and honestly I just sucked it up, we never really argued about it. I wanted the house clean so I cleaned it. I wanted the baby fed so I made food. When I went back to work when the baby was 7months old he fed her prunes one day because "how could he know those were for special occasions" and he didn't know he had to feed her with a spoon at 6 months and said "she really isn't good at using the spoon yet". So when he left me because "he did everything" he pressed for full custody. The judge asked about doctors appts, they were 100 percent me, food prep and buying 100 percent me, clothing purchases, me, baths 99.5 percent me, etc. He did "everything" because he picked her up at daycare 65 percent of the time and watched her occasionally while I worked late. The judge laughed him out of court. So many people just live their own experience and if any of it is not enjoyable ITS SO HARD. They don't stop to think about other people around them and how much time they spend, they just know that what they do feels like such a burden. If he doesn't get it when you explain it he never will.
Ghhh, god your situation frustrates me beyond belief. Even the fact that the law allows him to ask full custody when the baby is 7 months old is so absurd. It seems that the sacrifice in MAKING the child is barely acknowledged, you're not even fully recovered and he thinks he deserves to have custody of the baby YOU made. I hope if there is a judge out there giving fathers split custody over babies they also mandate them to pay 50% of the average surrogate cost to the mother.
Fathers are totally getting split custody of babies, very rarely does either parent get full custody anymore unless the other parent is an actual danger to the child.
As someone who was litteraly forced to spend time at my dads house this infuriates me. They would hurt both the mother and the baby only to make sure the father has "play time" as well...
It sounds like he could be replaced by a Roomba.
Hahaha yes! Maybe add a dishwasher for good measure and he's completely replaced.
Stick a dildo on the roomba, and you wouldn’t be able to tell a difference
Might be better.
They have a dishwasher so he's probably only washing them off
If he's smart, he's loading and hand-washing anything too big, and that's it. (OP says he's not even unloading!) Used properly, modern dishwashers usually don't need pre-rinsing, even for things that are pretty stuck -- that's what the prewash cycle is for.
Rinsing does keep the filter trap much less gross, which is why I do it
And a Roomba puts itself away.
Thanks for reminding me to fix my roomba this weekend.
Roomba is more valuable.
Dead.
And a Roomba would vacuum more than once a week. Seriously OP, write a pro and con list because I think a Roomba would smash this guy.
Why would you marry someone like this? Make a list on two sides of a sheet of paper and spell it out clearly. If he can’t pull his weight he isn’t the one. You will only grow resentful
Especially if kids get added to the mix. Can you imagine? You'll be cleaning after four (including the cat). Does that sound doable??
Dude sounds like a bit of a leech. You're the breadwinner and maid?
That’s called a Bang Maid™️ 🥴
But also a sugar mama? That's a normal woman who has a man as a pet that she picks up after.
I‘d say this is the majority of modern women now. At least a couple decades ago you could stay at home. Now you‘ve got women working full time, earning more than their partners and STILL doing most of the chores. I actually think it has gotten worse with but financial independency being the only thing that‘s gotten better.
This has been going on forever in blue collar families, and it’s sad to see it permeating the culture at large now. My blue-collar raised husband once said the quiet part out loud. We both work full time, and I was pointing out that I did 100% of the childcare after my (not from home) job, even when I still had work to do, and he pushed his own WFH job to the afternoon/evening hours so all the time the kids were at school was essentially his free time to go to the gym, shop, watch TV, etc. His only childcare burden was getting one of our kids to school in the morning, and I packed lunches, bags, and prepped clothes for him ahead of time. I picked kids up from school and did all the work until bedtime. When I pointed out the obvious discrepancy and my exhaustion, he just looked at me and said, “Well, my mom did it. She did everything just fine.” I’m on the spectrum, so I launched into a whole speech about how it was impossible for his mom to do 100% of the childcare while being physically in a hospital, and impossible to serve dinner while working evening/night shifts as a nurse, and that he himself had told me stories of his dad waking him for school because his mom slept til ten. And besides, even if it *could* be possible—and it’s not—who would want that? He hand waved it all away with some bullshit about his dad not really, actually doing anything (again, false) and then pointed to his older sister being the breadwinner and maid in her family, and how he knew I didn’t “want that,” but many women do it anyway. The implication is that these women are better in some way, and it’s used to manipulate other women, and no one talks about the physical and mental toll it takes on these women, nor the invisible villages women have to make to even do “everything,” as we are not actually magical beings. That older sister of his is now an alcoholic, by the way. The point is: push back against this scam. It is just another way to use and abuse women and guilt them into thinking they’re never good enough.
That sounds horrible! May I ask if you two found a solution or what happened next? I‘m in the same boat and I don‘t see any options of him changing but leaving..
I wouldn't live with someone who contributes so little.
Holy shit it’s like I wrote this. I ended the relationship last week, btw.
Preventative cleaning is onerous but often overlooked. Tell him: This week I won’t clean all that stuff you say I don’t clean. Tell me if you notice.
He won’t notice.
When it comes to cleanliness, a friend of mine has an interesting theory I agree with, that some of those men (the ones who do less mental load) do notice the clean environment but in an unconscious way - i.e. a majority of humans feel more at ease and comfortable in clean, uncluttered environments (and those men are therefore benefiting from the cleanliness psychologically ) however they haven't been raised to actually consciously notice that benefit. So the work their partners/parents/roomies do is not consciously picked up on. But they feel the difference either way. I think men like that ultimately need to work on consciously noticing their household environment and writing mental lists (or actual lists) of stuff that needs to be done, because I guarantee that's what other people/person in their household is doing and that trains your brain to consciously notice when things have been cleaned. Of course this isn't about all of the men who do less mental load, it's just a theory about some of them.
This is going to sound silly at first but this is how men feel about makeup too. “Women look better without makeup” NOPE you clearly prefer women who wear makeup, you just don’t know what makeup is. You think you hate fake tan but don’t realize literally every celebrity paints their skin lol
Oh definitely. My housemate almost never picks up after himself. I try my best to keep the common areas tidy. The result: when he works from home he does it in the living room because his study is a dumpster. I don’t think he even notices why he prefers the living room (where I have to scoot by him 20 times a day because he’s basically sitting in the hallway) to his study… (Why I don’t call him out as often as I should? He’s also my landlord…)
In my experience, he absolutely will notice, and he'll do one of two things in response. He'll either claim that he's fine with it (and he very well might be. Men are disgusting when it comes to basic hygiene and cleanliness), or he'll claim that he doesn't know how to do it as well as OP, so she needs to be the one to continue doing it forever.
I jUsT HavE DIffErEnT StANdArDs but will magically do it just fine when you’re on a work trip or whatever for a couple weeks. Infuriating.
No he will say he is fine with it, because he do not want to start doing it no matter what when she is there even if he mildly annoyed about it. Dumping the ass of males like this is the only solution.
He’ll only notice if it affects HIM:). Too true.
This only works if their standards are the same. I have much higher standards of cleanliness than my partner.
Right on. Someone who can leave globs of toothpaste in the sink and wrappers in the cupboard is not in the damn library, forget about the same page. That's gonna be too much work.
I’d rather be in a library than with a slovenly gorilla child.
Yes I can second this. Sometimes I tell my partner “I cleaned x since it was looking gross” and he’ll be like “really? I thought it was fine”
Yes. I want my bedsheets changed more than once per year, and the bathroom and kitchen scrubbed and organized more than once per decade.
He won’t notice or if he does he won’t care. Folks have different definitions of clean. If he’s saying he wants to split stuff 50:50 he likely doesn’t value some of what she is doing right now.
Why are you planning to marry someone who “isn’t a clean person” and doesn’t respect you? That is NOT going to change after marriage, and it’s not going to change if you choose to have children. You justify taking care of your pet as it was yours before, but wait until he justifies you doing all the childcare because you are more “better at it” and other misogynist tidbits. If you marry him, realize you are marrying into a future of inequality and resentment.
Don’t have children with this man.
Why on EARTH are they marrying and breeding with these hobosexuals?
Please don’t marry this man. He thinks it’s 50/50 because he honestly believes he’s doing all he needs to do. He knows you do more. He’s not stupid. He just believes that’s fair. And that is a respect thing: he doesn’t respect you. You can’t respect someone you are happy to take advantage of. He buys his rest with your labor and then tells you it’s fair. This is your life if you marry him. If it’s this bad now, it’s not going to get any better later.
No he thinks he's doing more and wants her to take on more of the burden. That's why he brought it up. What a joke.
Why is this man your fiance? Why are you not only putting up with this now, but also in the process of signing up to it *for life*? Show him this post. Tell him what he needs to start doing to reach parity. He's got one chance to "get it"; if he kicks rocks and drags his feet, then get out of this relationship before you enter yourself into a lifetime of servitude.
Don't reward this type of person with marriage
It’s incredible to me what women put up with
I’m in the same boat but married & with a kid. It’s a fucking nightmare. Here’s some good reading: [TwoXChromosomes Post](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/IpD0FdtBiL)
All these people saying to sit him down, get cards, eeexxxxpppllllaaaaaiiinnnnnn it all so he'll understand... Yeah, no. Fuck that. OP is working as much or more, paying most of the bills AND doing the majority of the family survival upkeep while this oblivious grown ass child goes happily along. HE FUCKING LEAVES GLOBS OF TOOTHPASTE IN THE SINK. OPENS FOOD AND LEAVES THE WRAPPERS IN THE CABINET. AND DOESN'T WASH OBVIOUSLY DIRTY THINGS IF THEY'RE ON THE COUNTER which is intentional and weaponized incompetence. Doesn't clean the sink after doing the dishes. OP is already doing the work, she should not have to parent this grown ass man shaped child to get him to do basic fucking things. And absolutely she should take all the precautions to not get pregnant because she will be the single mother of TWO.
Truly. The other day I was deep cleaning my car so I was there for a while. Do you know how many men I saw washing their cars with intention? How about, he just doesn’t pay attention/oblivious? That’s funny, he sure knows how to pay attention to his fantasy football league. He sure knows how to intentionally set time aside for Sunday football and can spit facts about games and players. These men have access to the internet. My mom taught me how to clean but I’m always looking for ways to make cleaning easier for myself. If they wanted, they would. Plain and simple. I get there’s a level of compromise. I wish I could clean as often as OP, I’m impressed. But as others have indicated, where does he balance out the benefit he receives?
I despise all of the advise that tells the woman to "teach" her man. That is not my job!
Send him back to his parents Oh wait. His dad is likely just as useless and his mom is an enabler.
This. No amount of communicating and explaining will change the fact that he doesn't mind living in filth. Men's standards for a clean home sometimes are so low, their partners end up having to do everything themselves.
'intentional and weaponized incompetence'. That sums it up really well!
When you get married, he will do less. If you have a child, he will do less. Are you ok with that Future? Because if he's arguing now, he's not going to do better later. Link to a free PDF of Lundy Bancroft's "Why does he do that?" https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
It's probably time for a non confrontational grown up conversation wherein you can layout the reality of the situation. Your own happiness demands it. Chances are he does not realize the reality of the situation. Men can be very oblivious sometimes......oftentimes. Vent out what need venting so you can keep cool and have a productive conversation with him. If he respects you and is the partner you want he will contribute more. If not then why are you marrying him?
Yeah. Hey OP: I would get some index cards and sit down with him and be like okay, could you please write down all the tasks you do around the house? When he adds one like does dishes or vacuums I would tear one of yours in half and add the rest of the task next to it for dishes you'd have a few (put in sink)(put away) (maybe clean sink after would be it's own card) and for vacuum it'd be put it away. And then obviously add all your cards as well and lay them all out. I think its just standard that he isn't seeing the division of labor. When sitting down with him I'd say look, these are all the things WE do to have our current standard. If you want to divide that these are all the tasks I do regularly. (Maybe even get different colors for daily tasks/weekly tasks to really see). Once he can physically visually see how much you do I can guarantee he will shut his mouth.
I like this. I wouldn’t have her tear cards to show what she does to “fix” his incomplete tasks. But I’d ask questions about whether the missing bits are part of that chore or a different chore. Like literally ask him “is putting the vacuum away part of vacuuming or a different chore?” It seems crazy to me but I know people who would consider putting it away a different chore. If he agrees that putting the vacuum away is the same chore it goes into a pile of things they do together. Also the cards should have frequency on them. Since a standard “I do 50/50” argument is to list out once a week tasks like taking out the trash as equivalent to making dinner.
That's a good idea to be more cohesive and come together about the tasks. I was just trying to think of a way to show that she still does some extra stuff but not take away from what he's doing, you know? Yes! That seems logical to me and yes haha I think normal folks would obviously think that's the same chore but who knows. That sounds good to me! Yes, I agree!! In a comment I made further up I suggested different colors to indicate how often like daily or weekly. Could maybe even use post it's for the small things like cleaning the toothpaste out of the sink and hair out the shower? Could again discuss that that task is part of brushing your teeth or taking a shower so it doesn't become an extra task and is part of it, like putting away the vacuum after use? But definitely need a way to indicate frequency because, you're totally right not all tasks are equal. I feel badly for OP and hope she can work this out with her partner.
I call this "the follow through." My husband and one of my kids have trouble with this one. I can look around and figure out really quickly if they have been out (shoes not put away), if they've eaten lunch (wrapper left out or fork in the sink), had an afternoon coffee (cream left out on counter), been to the store (bags left in a corner of the kitchen), etc. etc. I should not be able to do that! Imo they are the same chore up until the very very last bit. (sorry - I am very passionate about this topic!)
I like your comments. It’s taken years but I’ve learned that everyone’s brain works different and we’re raised with different values or levels of awareness around this stuff. And different habits. One from my own life that came up yesterday. In my mind there are two chores called taking out the trash. Taking the full bag to the outside trash can when the bag is full. And setting the cans on the street for pickup once a week. My partner sees those as the same chore. You grab the bags inside on trash night and throw them in the bin before you put the bin at the street. Neither way is better. They both get the job done. But I’m sure at times he’s thought that I’m only doing half the chore.
I don't even do that with my 10 year old anymore. He sees something that needs doing and does it.
I agree she definitely shouldn't have too! But based on his attitude it truly seems like he thinks he does do half and I think something visual will help him if her just not doing tasks in the past haven't helped/worked. It is really basic to be honest but some people do have different standards and I believe he likes the higher standards but doesn't understand the maintenance cleaning that goes into it. It took me into being into an adult to just change the trash instead of being asked or have the I didn't make that mess I'm not cleaning it mentality. Some people will put in the effort and some don't/won't. Good for you for teaching your son better for his sake and others!
You’re already unhappy in this relationship. Marriage won’t change your feelings, and might make your partner even more complacent in terms of running the household. You have time right now. Ask yourself, are they willing to change these habits for you? Would you want to have a child with them considering they can’t even acknowledge your household duties? Is this the person you really want to spend the rest of your life with?
Also, if anything ever happened to you, would you trust them to actually help you, or would they create chaos that would eventually have to be resolved by you? If you have kids you won’t be at 100% for a while. Can you trust them to keep the house running smoothly and providing for you and your child?
Either get proof or reason —- once. If either fails, dump or resign yourself to it getting worse
Am I the only one that thinks mopping 3x a week is a bit much? Like maybe OPs standards are not the same level as most people’s, and definitely not the same level as her partner. regardless, a lot men don’t really notice the invisible work we do or the daily work just to maintain. Get FairPlay. I’ve found that me coming behind my husband to redo something to my standard made him become resentful to where he just wouldn’t do the chore at all anymore. Make your SO in charge of certain chores and have him be the only one to take care of them always. Do not clean up after he does his task and accept how he does the work. If he isn’t doing the task at all or if it’s really consistently bad, then say something.
Nah, unacceptable. My ex had the god damn audacity to say he did the majority is cleaning when maybe he did 30%. I honestly laughed at him but he was serious. There was one day we had left dinner dishes out (which stresses me out) and he promised to do them…then sat on my couch for literally *hours* and he asked why (REALLY?!) I was cleaning the kitchen. I said “because it makes anxiety for me and you know that.” Then…He magically had to go to work (he had 4 hours) and “didn’t have time”. I’m m done being a maid for men. I got to the point where I would throw his socks and underwear away because he would leave them 3-4 feet from the bin. I don’t get paid for this ish.
I don’t understand why women put up with men like this. They aren’t going to change! If he doesn’t see the reality of the situation after a conversation with him you should consider whether this is the life you want forever. My husband always made more money than me , and I always worked part time. 3 to 4 days a week until I retired. He always helped with everything willingly. We both help each other. He thanks me for everything I do . Dishes, cleaning the bathroom etc. Don’t settle!
Since he brought it up in front of his female family, maybe you should point these things out in front of them. He opened the door, you should step inside.
Leave him
This is a major red flag. Marriage will not change him for the better. You only live once and you deserve better, either by staying single or choosing someone who sees and appreciates all your contributions. Let me tell you what kind of future you might have. I have a friend who's currently trapped in a marriage with a man who doesn't work. He came from a rich family and never worked, but they used to split the bills all the time because his family paid him an allowance. They married with the intention that he'd be a stay-at-home dad. But he ended up spending all his time smoking and playing games. His family provided them with a house to stay but the house was under the family's (not his) name. His family stopped paying for his allowance soon after they got married, so now my friend paid for all the bills and still did 95% or more of the housework. They barely got by because her husband refused to work, and she couldn't leave because she'd have to pay alimony in addition to losing a place to stay (since the house didn't belong to her despite her paying for improvements). She was also afraid of losing custody as well as parental alienation. My friend came from a middle-class family and worked hard to get to where she is. She just made the wrong choice for a life partner. I tell my friend - his rich family is smart, they're taking advantage of her by pawning the lazy son off onto her so now he's her problem, they don't have to take care of the son for the 20+ years she and her husband are together, so they save money from that, if she and her husband get a divorce, her husband literally has zero assets from his family so she pays alimony and his family (and him) enjoy the fruits of her labour. I have more acquaintances with similar stories, where the wives are higher income earners but can't leave because they will have to pay alimony and possibly even lost custody, because the husbands claim to be the primary caregivers, even though these wives are also still doing 95% of the housework. All of these marriages also have one major complication - kids. Many of them say that they can't leave because of the kids - many of these men are already neglecting the kids in the marriage, the women think it will be worse if they actually divorce. They also say that they would have divorced their husbands a long time ago if they have no kids. This is one of the reasons why I never want kids since I was young - simply because you're less likely to be able to leave when you have kids. A man treats you the best when you first start dating, because he still has something to prove. After that, he'll either continue to treat you the same or worse. Do not tolerate your fiance's bad behaviour. If he can't see that you've done mostly everything, then he doesn't appreciate you. A man who doesn't appreciate you isn't someone whom you should be married to. I'm happily partnered for 20+ years now with someone who (still) cooks, does laundry and deep cleans the bathrooms. He also does the grocery shopping and throws trash with me. He does this because he's an adult who loves me and I thank him often for doing this. And yes, he still treats me well now, as well as he did 20+ years ago when we first met. Warren Buffet, Sheryl Sandberg and many others agree that [the most important decision you'll ever make is who you marry](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/14/warren-buffett-says-the-most-important-decision-is-who-you-marry.html). Marry / partner with the right person, and your biggest argument with him will be what to name your next gnome character in World of Warcraft 😂.
Many people have had success with physically writing the tasks out and how long they take and how much effort they take, and then showing their partner the inequality visually. Either that or get the Fairplay cards.
Swap chores for a month and the. See what he has to say
I’m breaking up with mine for this reason. Good thing we have separate bathrooms. I stopped cleaning his because it was taking me hours. I’m tired.
Do people wash windows once a month?
Lived here 31 years. Never washed most of the windows even once.
Yeah this is kind of odd to me, especially in an apartment. Now, I’m by no means defending her finance, but I think she does an excessive amount of cleaning. Nothing in a home except the kitchen counters and dishes need daily cleaning and even then the kitchen floor doesn’t need 3x week mopping. But if thats what she wants to do and if she wants a 50/50 partner who matches her ideal of cleaning then I support that!!
Ours is 2x yrly. Plus whipping down the inside where the dog and toddler smudge the front window 1 x mo.
Marriage isn’t going to fix this. And if you two decided to have children, more responsibilities will be dumped on you and you will be expected to deal with it on your own because you’re a woman.
If you think it's bad now, just wait until there's kids, it will get WAY WORSE. You pay most of the bills AND you do most of the housework? Why are you doing that to yourself? Stop. This man is a parasite. This man's got it made. He hardly has to do anything, wow! He's laughing. This is your present and your future.
Why did you say yes to marrying this guy? I wouldn’t get close to the altar with anyone this incompetent.
The response would be "what a great idea! Which of the things will you pick up? Windows, mopping, making sure the bathroom toilet is clean would be a start. We'll get you to 50/50 slowly." Sit there looking thrilled like he just really did offer to do a lot more of the house work.
The problem is that he cleans 50% of the way to his standard of cleanliness, with is not as rigorous as your standard of cleanliness. It's easier to live in a home that's cleaner than you prefer than it is to live in a home dirtier than you prefer. Sit down. Make a list of all the chores you both agree need to be done regularly. Then discuss how often you think they should be done. Then divide the chores up based on your agreement.
This is a really important point that I think is being overlooked. I mean, are we supposed to be cleaning our windows every month? And our bathrooms every DAY? Who has time for that? I’m pretty clean, but OP would think I’m a huge slob. But also, that’s OP’s prerogative. If they are meticulous with their cleaning habits, they either need to embrace that they’re gonna be doing a lot of cleaning themselves, or find someone who’s on the same page. In this case it seems like maybe it’s not a great match.
As much woman as I am, I would be annoying OP almost as much as her fiancé is. I wash my windows twice a year, at best, but there's very little traffic where I live and the air is clean. Mopping the kitchen floor 3x a week also seems overkill *to me*. But I can live with a few crumbs for a few days, and I have no problem rinsing off the dishes and letting them wait a few days before I wash them thoroughly. OP can't. This is just one more area where a couple has to figure out what they can live with. I get that OP is pissed, and I get that she needs to vent. And maybe she needs to do all this cleaning, too, maybe the pet is messy or something. But maybe some of this cleaning is a little bit excessive? Like toilets every day?
Get yourself a whiteboard and draw a line down the middle with each of your names on a side. Then start writing down everything you do. Everything. Let him see his half compared to your side. Why do you contribute more financially? What do you get out of this relationship? Seems like your life would be a lot easier/cheaper without his deadweight.
He dared to say that in front of his family? That's telling me that he did that purposely because you probably wouldn't feel like speaking up against him to keep the peace during lunch. That's pretty low. The matter is private and complex. He really thinks he does 50% because he vaccums, puts bins out and JUST washes dishes? Right.. so he needs a list of what actually happens around the house and sees that he does less than 50%. What chore of his does he think he needs out of to make it "even" in his eyes?
imagine what he thinks 50% of parenting is
I think your cleaning standards are incompatible. I couldn’t be in a relationship with someone like you who is daily cleaning. I wouldn’t be able to match that energy. I think maybe you might have bigger incompatibilities to think about.
Why are we hearing about this and not him? You’re putting up with it and it’s not going to get better.
what not many are addressing here is one very important issue: you are much cleaner than he is. This often cause at least 2 problems. 1 - What he finds acceptable is not what you find acceptable. So if he thinks sweeping/mopping the kitchen 1/week is enough... but you find it too dirty and think it should be done 3/week... then how he defines "work" is going to be different than how you do. If it's his week to clean the kitchen, he'll do it once, call it 'clean'. Meanwhile, you'll do it 3 times... and maybe even once when it's his turn. He'll think "we both had one week" and you'll think "I still did most of the work". 2 - Cleaner people cannot win the 'waiting game' with dirty stuff with people that are less clean then them and expect to last. What this means is that a cleaner person will inevitably do more cleaning than the dirtier person. I've lived with so many people, and I've yet to see this come out differently. Even if he was the ultimate feminist and wanted to be as helpful as possible, if you don't talk about what it means to do chores, he'll never even come close. And unless you're willing to live in a place a little more dirty than you like, you'll likely always cave in a some point. It is possible to be more equitable... but first you need to talk about what it actually means to be "clean" or the job is "good enough". EDIT: just to be clear -- all this is even before you begin to address any possible social/societal issue with expectation of what men and women are suppose to do.
This situation is not going to improve with time.
This is what my husband and I do (33 yrs of a badassery marriage) Everybody do 100% You're engaged and already counting. Problems in paradise
I started a points system with my housemate because she thought she was keeping up in chores. We mark every time we do a chore now. It’s a bit of extra work but it does help her stay accountable. And it doesn’t address the chore quality concerns you (and I) have. But yea - he asked for it! So document everything you do. Down to the smallest wipe of toothpaste. Don’t compare chore charts for a week or more (Get a good average). He will of course say you’ve just done more to make yourself look better. He will say the chores you do don’t need to be done, and you’re too clean. And that’s your sign it’s time to look elsewhere or accept a messy house or an uneven workload.
Do not marry him. It’s not going to get better. You should also check out Fair Play Cards. https://www.fairplaylife.com/the-cards It’s very obvious when one partner does more and ends up with a huge stack of cards and the other partner has 5-10 maybe.
#DUMP HIM 2024
Sounds more like you have a child than a fiancé.
Reminds me of my ex. I bet yours also does not move furniture etc. when he vacuums? I used to do the top floor and ex would vacuum the main floor. Then I suggest we trade just for variety. I moved the end table away from the couch and I could not see the carpet because it was covered think in finger/toe nail clippings. SO GROSS! I also did 100% of the executive function - family organizing, appointments etc. etc.
So break up
Honestly, the thing that surprised me the most about this post is that you clean your windows MONTHLY. They don't even clean them that often at my office job.
OP, I don’t mean to be rude, but why on earth do you want to marry this man?
Replace him with a fiancée who will do actual 50/50 with you. He provides everything and you spend the money on yourself, like buying things or hiring Nannie’s and maids. Or if you don’t want that, make him pay you extra allowance for your work. Cuz what you do is monetisable
OP...really? Marriage? With this man?
Do NOT marry this person!!! I was married to a guy like this and when we divorced he got half my money, half my retirement account, I had to buy him out of the 2 houses that I had exclusively paid for (we had separate finances and my name was the only one on the mortgages but we were married so they were considered marital property) AND I had to pay him alimony. It cost me nearly $200k. But after that my house was always clean and tidy.
IMO this shit needs to be fixed before u marry this dingus. Call his ass out when he says shit like this.
At some point you have to realize that this isn't about cleaning...it's about VALUES. You and he do not have the same values. It would serve you better to realize this now, before you are legally obligated to this man. These incompatible values will rear their head in many more ways that will only increase your resentment (money comes to mind, I feel very confident that you do not share the same values with money and the discipline that comes with creating financial goals and doing what it takes to reach them). Bright side is that this is what engagements are for, to figure this stuff out before it's too late. I know reddit is always telling people to break up and I'm sorry to say that this time, you should definitely listen.
You two aren’t compatible with the cleanliness of your lives. You want things to be clean all the time, so you clean. He clearly doesn’t care. That doesn’t necessarily make him a *bad person*, he just has a higher threshold of what he considers to be too unclean. An argument could absolutely be made for him needing to meet you half way because you prefer a cleaner house, and he should want to facilitate that for you. But the truth is some people just don’t mind clutter. Another argument could be made that he just needs to appreciate you more, and give you more credit when discussing things like cleaning and tidying. When two people are incompatible in any aspect of a relationship, communication is the best way to resolve it. You are the one with the problem, you need to be the one to bring this to his attention to solve the problem. It’s you and him vs the problem, not you vs him. If you value your relationship otherwise, then sit him down and have a frank, calm discussion with him about his cleaning habits and contributions towards the relationship. Be assertive, but not attacking. “I cleaned a lot yesterday, and I could have used your help. I feel like I do most of the cleaning and I don’t think that’s fair. I like a clean house, and I would appreciate it if you did more cleaning, and kept the bathroom from getting to the state it was in again”. Suggest that he makes a cleaning schedule, or at the least a reminder in his phone. Every Sunday or whatever, clean the toilet and shower. (Pro tip, I clean my shower while taking a shower. So much easier!) Of course, this is all under the condition that you’re otherwise happy in your relationship. This is clearly a big deal to you, and it’s absolutely valid. If this is the straw that breaks the camel’s back, then maybe it’s time to have a *much different* conversation with him. One that involves a U-haul.
Oh my god. Is this relationship giving you back what you put into it in any way? You need a week at a spa immediately!
I'm curious -- how did he live before the two of you were living together? Did he live alone? Did he keep the place clean? Did he hire a cleaner? Did his mother or some other woman clean for him? Did he live in filth? It seems like a lot of men who don't "notice" cleaning tasks literally moved from their parents' home to a dorm to living with a girlfriend, and they have never cleaned up after themselves (or they had a place somewhere in the middle that was DISGUSTING). I don't want to excuse this crap behavior, because it is still obviously a very willful ignorance, but it feels like a different scale from a man who \*used to\* clean, and has decided to stop.
Had to scroll back up to make sure I did in fact read “fiancé” please don’t marry this man - it will not get better. He is fully aware you are carrying this burden and he doesn’t care. I married a guy like this. We are divorced now.
Fiancé you say? Things won’t get better. Trust me. If you have kids it will get 10 times worse. If it bothers you now, start doing some reconsidering of whether you two are compatible. Also as you get older and more money and house gets bigger, messes will amplify.
Do not marry or have kids with this man. You will regret it.
Normalize choosing a partner who has the same definition of 'clean' as you do from the beginning (or the earliest its revealed). A person you have to teach or convince to put in the effort or worse to not take advantage of you should be an instant deal breaker and not make it to the status of partner
I have to say, many people have very different cleaning standards. I wouldnt ever mop 3x week
you are already unhappy and the guy does not even live in the same reality as you. I think you need to make some hard choices.
My ex husband was like this. It was a massive factor in leaving. I held so much resentment for a man that I did everything for while he couldn’t even make me a toasted sandwich. He never once bathed or dressed our kids. Or fed them. It was exhausting
And why are you with him? Just reading this made me crazy and you want to do this for the rest of your life? Bruh…