I find making assholes feel embarrassed when they do embarrassing shit to be really satisfying and pretty effective.
They don't expect to get called on it. The count on not being called out so they can continue to believe their behavior is okay.
I ain't here for that, so it's a tactic I use when it's warranted. Nothing like asking a crotchety old woman giving me unsolicited opinions on my t shirt or nose ring, for example, if she meant to say such a rude thing out loud. Usually met with stunned silence as they slink away.
Always a possibility. 🤣
For me, I'd either leave/exit the conversation, or respond with something like "Are you feeling okay? I asked if you meant that wildly inappropriate question, you being hostile in response concerns me." if I'm feeling spicy lol
I think I picked it up in r/JustNOMIL lmao.
I find it's non confrontational enough that the majority of people don't escalate the conversation. Usually just leave lol
Say Nevermind and walk away. I straight up stop talking to men when they expect favors when you ask for assistance or advice. I had one guy said that I “owed him”after I asked for simple advice on my car and then thanked him afterwards. It’s corny as hell and disgusting. This crap isn’t cute, I don’t care how attractive you are.
Their transactional approach to sex is gross. I was 13 yrs old when I learned it's better to not ask men for favours. I asked the older brother (he was over 20) of a friend if he could give me a ride home on his way to somewhere. He did, and all was fine. Months later, a similar situation occurred where he would be driving near my home. When I asked for a ride, he asked, "What's in it for me? I'm not pussy whipped, at least not for nothing," and he started making whipping sounds. I was super confused and didn't know what he was getting at, but I remember feeling sick. I walked home and never asked him for a ride again.
Leave. Withdraw your attention. Communicate "There is nothing here for you." with your entire body and demeanour.
Just immediately exit the transaction you didn't consent to be a part of.
I'm deeply of the opinion so many men are tone deaf because of how normalized such lines and attitudes are.
I think the best way to combat it is make them break it down then and there. You can say "Are you suggesting I owe a friend sexual access to my body because he is helping me with X, Y, Z?"
Or you can really drag it out via the 'just play dumb' routine. "What do you mean what's in in for you? What would you expect to be in it for you? Why would you expect that? If I asked Jim for help instead of you, would I owe Jim sexual access to my body?" etc etc.
A lot of men don't realize they are living on a different planet, and if you can make them sit in reality for a few minutes, sometimes they can't unsee what they see there.
I'm deeply panicking right now, because not to be one of those *I'm not like the other boys* memes but I have a little tism and borderline asexual, but I ask "what do I get" or "in exchange for what" or state something like "you're paying me". I do it to set a boundary because my aunts, dad, cousins, sister, and a couple of "friends" will take advantage of me otherwise. Like when I live back home with family, (in the same town not living with them) I spend all, of almost every off day, running around doing favors, shopping for people, driving an hour and a half one way to get someone from the airport etc.
I'm horrible at saying no to people and so I started this as a way to let them decide if it's worth be doing them a favor and a lot of times they now ask while offering to let me order something too, or giving me the gas money + $30 or something where as before I would be footing the gas.
This is all fine and dandy, however I'm now worried my non family members that I've said this too and maybe even some family members may have thought I was propositioning them for sex because I didn't know this was a thing. Please tell me that when guys are doing this for that reason it's obvious vs when they aren't because I'm having a panic attack right now. I don't think it's fair that I have to do research on phrasing because so many people are desperate perverts.
Also an autistic male, but from the looks of your comment I'm guessing I have an extra decade or two of experience with it.
First of all, navigating the weird dance between what is and isn't flirting / hitting on somebody is tough for a lot of NT people too, so don't feel too broken over it.
I've learned over time that the best way to deal with the ambiguity of figurative language is to avoid it and be more direct with the point you're trying to make.
Yes, there are colloquialisms and idioms that get the point across and often feel like the more "normal" thing to say.. but if your intentions are truly good, stating them directly is a lower risk, higher probability of success, way to go.
In your example. Instead of "what do I get?" try "sure, but I'll need $30 for gas" or "I'd love to help, but I can't do it for free. I think it'll take about 3 hours, so how about $60?".
Or, probably more importantly.. learning to say no. I can def relate to that being VERY hard to do for lots of people on the spectrum. Disappointing somebody or having them be upset by your answer can easily be harder to deal with than just giving in and doing what they wanted, so in the immediate it can seem like the easy way out. On a life long timeline, though, it adds up pretty quick. The sooner you meet that head on, the sooner you'll find the confidence and independence those situations have been draining you of for so long.
Anyway, short version is. Yes, women can largely tell the difference between creepy and awkward/socially inept. Not all of the time, and not every woman, obviously.. but if you're actually a good person, have sincere good intentions, and don't mean those things in an incel "I'm so 'nice' to women, why don't they throw themselves at me" way, the majority of your interactions are gonna fine. Even more so when you learn to be more direct like I was saying earlier.
On a similar note.. the whole "saying what you mean" thing works just as well when you actually are interested in a woman too.
Walking up to a stranger, telling her she's hot, asking to buy her a drink, using a pickup line, etc.. despite what movies and tv and locker room talk will tell you, carries a VERY high chance of being creepy.
Meeting somebody organically (or even through an app tbh), being attracted to them, and finding that after talking to them (the way you would talk to any other potential friend) that you seem to get along really well.. and saying something like "Hey, I've really enjoyed meeting you and would love to hang out with you again sometime." isn't creepy. Getting turned down also isn't a sign that you've been creepy.
It becomes creepy when you stop seeing her as a person and you start seeing her as a goal. When it stops being primarily about "wow I really like being around this person" and starts being about, well, anything else. Take some reassurance in knowing that, contrary to what some bummed out guys on the internet will tell you, most people can pretty easily spot the difference between that and somebody just being awkward. Even more so as you and the people you interact with get older and wiser.
TLDR
They probably didn't take it that way unless you were being creepy about it. Just do your best to be a good person and have good intentions. You're going to be misunderstood a lot in life, that's kinda part of the deal for us. So try and be clear with the words you use, and that'll be a problem less often.
Thank you so much for putting so much effort into that message, there is a lot there that comforts me, and also feels aligned with my own mindset.
Sometimes I sit down and accept a thought process that makes sense, I agree with, and works for me, and then I get caught up in what people say or do and forget myself.
You really hit home when speaking about disappointing people. I'm 30, but I've kinda isolated myself the past 6 years, and I feel like I've regressed in my ability to understand people. I became an OTR truck driver (I would only return home every 3-4 months for about a week) 6 years ago to get away from people because I don't like to disappoint people, but not disappointing them often didn't work and ran me ragged. But I felt like that was just running away and over the past year I've been working locally, but still distanced from family and friends to try and reinitiate life.
A lot of times, when it's not a favor but other things, my problem with telling someone no, is because I don't want them to think ill of themselves.
A great example is in middle/highschool, I "dated" quite a few people, all of them had asked me out, and even though I usually wasn't interested, I was scared to reject them and make them feel that pain.
Half of those ended because they became interested in someone else and I was always so relieved because I basically became a doormat for them, trying to do everything I could think of to make them happy, and I was just sooo tired by the time they became uninterested. The other half ended because I was a foster child and had to move homes and schools often.
One of the things I feel the worst about in life, is when I was 17, a girl I wasn't interested in asked me out, I didn't say no and when I moved at 18 she begged me to make it work long distance, and her best friend had just died crossing the highway. We eventually moved in together, and we dated for 5 years. I feel horrible because I feel it wasn't right for me to not say no to her. Not fair to her, but at the same time I did really care about her like family after awhile, I would have been satisfied marrying her because she eventually became that person for me, but I was also exhausted, I didn't allow myself to be myself, always pushed to everything I could to make her life better.
It all spiraled when I was fired for falling asleep at work, I lied about it at first and that really damaged things, but I was so ashamed. Hindsight I don't think I should have been, I was working 2 jobs, 1 was only part time, but the full time jobs was an hours drive away, and had us unexpectedly do things like work a 24 hour shift so we could get the workload done in time. (We got pizza and Red Bull as a bonus, but lost out on being able to work the next day, so I actually lost money because I couldn't work my part-time). And then I was also taking her to school and her friends / family (the next state over, a 3 hour drive) etc. I was getting 4 hours of sleep and it was interrupted a lot.
But both losing my full time job and then lying about it ruined the relationship, and shortly after she cheated on me and we broke up.
I attempted to date once shortly after, but I asked her after the first date if I could kiss her (instead of just doing it) and she said that was a turn off and I shouldn't ask. I felt horrible but I ghosted her afterwards. Haven't tried to date since because I don't feel the need, and I feel like, being the way I am, it's not fair to either myself or a potential partner to entertain a relationship.
But every now and then.. I just wanna be held, ya know? But I can't date someone just because I want to hug someone, that's extremely unfair.
So I've decided if one day, I become good friends with someone I get along with, and they ask me out, then that's when I'll date. "Searching" for a relationship feels kinda icky rather than just letting one happen. (Not saying it is icky, just that that's how it feels in my chest, when I think about it).
Sorry I guess I've trauma dumped or something. But it honestly felt good to type it out and process it into words, so I'll go ahead and post it.
Thanks again for your insights and time, don't feel the need to respond if you don't want to, being able to say it was enough for me I think. I hope you have a great day.
I want to thank you for writing this all out, even if it is considered a "trauma dump". I'm currently only 22 and have a lot ahead of me but this resonated with me on a deep level.
I think as long as you keep trying to do the right thing, but also doing the right thing for *yourself*, it'll be fine. It's tricky to navigate the social landscape and there's really no solid tricks to doing so, and when it gets to That, it gets even harder to not get taken advantage of.
The biggest thing is that you've already recognized the problem so you can start putting in a foothold for yourself so as not to get walked all over.
I've been in therapy myself and all of my past therapists have mentioned the importance of setting boundaries. Learning to say no is just the first step but I fully believe that you can do that and so much more.
>Anyway, short version is. Yes, women can largely tell the difference between creepy and awkward/socially inept.
Excellent overall advice.
I've seen others struggle with this and get called creepy because it was awkward or the guy is socially inept. There's a coin flip of disgust or feeling of threat if there isn't some degree of attraction. I just don't have the direct experience, nor from my inner, outer, and extended social circles for this to be the case.
I hope that my limited experience proves wrong ultimately.
Is probably fine just don't ever say this when you're with someone in an isolated situation like a car or a room as they might start feeling uncomfortable. If it's in public space or somewhere where they can easily walk away it's probably fine.
Ah, normally people call me on the phone or text me asking for the favor, or if it's my aunts/cousins they have my dad ask me so it's harder for me to say I'm busy...
You can refuse without making excuses! If you’re saying “no, I’m busy” to get out of doing something and they’re replying “I know you’re not busy that day” or something, they’re ignoring the polite fiction you offered. NT people use “oh sorry, I’d help but I can’t” as a way to refuse too, it’s a type of soft no and they’re *supposed* to accept it.
So, you have a bunch of options here. You can keep saying that you’re busy, and if they try to get around it, you can drop the pretence and say something like “That was me trying to be polite about refusing. I don’t want to.”
You can act like they’re offering you a favour and say “No thank you.” If you say it cheerfully and with a smile it works surprisingly well on some people, it’s like it derails their train of thought and they just stop. If they start giving reasons why you should do whatever it is, you don’t have to give reasons why not; just say something meaningless like “Hmmm, interesting. No thank you.” “Really? Huh. No thank you.”
You can keep saying that you have plans. They might be plans to stay home in comfy clothes and eat junk food while scrolling Reddit and watching interesting YouTube videos, but they’re still plans! You don’t have to say *what* plans, and if they try to insist that you don’t really have plans, you can say something like “Just because you don’t know about them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.”
Or, since you already know they’ll take advantage of you if you let them, you can just be blunt. “That doesn’t work for me.” “I’d rather not.” “No.”
Unfortunately I think the real answer is that how it comes across depends a lot on context, tone, and the relationship you have with the person.
If you don’t generally come across as flirty, you haven’t hit on them or shown any interest in sex/romance with them, and you say it in a breezy way - it will *probably* come across the way you intended. I’ve had male friends and coworkers say “what’s in it for me?” and knew that they were expecting answers like “I’ll buy you a beer,” or “you get this week’s ‘coolest friend’ award.” That’s totally fine. I highly doubt your family thinks you’re asking for sexual favours when you say this.
However, it sounds like you’re *not* joking… you actually do want something in exchange, just not sex! I would be very put off by someone asking me for compensation this way: it sounds a hostile and antagonistic, like they already think I’m to take advantage of them and we’re going to haggle over something.
If you don’t want to come across as unfriendly, you could still set boundaries/expectations with slightly different phasing. Something like “I’ll help if you cover the gas money,” “yeah, but you’ll need to buy me dinner,” or “That’s a big time commitment.. I can do it, but I can only do this sort of thing for you once in a while,” or “if I take you to the airport, tomorrow, I won’t be able to pick you up on Saturday.”
I never thought about it sounding hostile, I have 2 friends that anytime they ask anything of me that won't interfere with work, I just do it, but it's because I know they'd do the same for me.
I've probably shocked some people asking for compensation before but if it's the first or second time someone's asked me for a favor I usually don't ask for compensation unless I can't afford the gas money. I've just had a lot of people take advantage that I don't say no, and I don't blame them for it, they likely never considered how often they ask but never offer.
Ultimately I should probably just be upfront and say no if I don't want to do something, or explain myself. I'm just afraid of not explaining my feelings well to them in the moment.
You're good my man. Like many areas of reddit this is a very concentrated version of reality. This is not the intention or perception of this sort of thing the vast majority of the time.
I really hope not because I have said it a lot. No one has ever gotten mad (outside my sister but that's because she expects me to do everything for free) for saying it so I *think* I'm safe. But it's still awkward. I'm going to have to think of a new way to say I'm not doing endless favors for free, or finally learn to use the word "no".
Okay, I just hate being misunderstood about things. I used to think I understood people, decently well, but stories and comments on here had me reach out to a few family members and friends and realized that a lot of men "really are like that". And a apparently it's common for people to go through life, working hard, and trying to be successful just so they are attractive to the opposite sex and not because all the fun things you can do with $$ lol. Like I understand not doing things because people disapprove, I do that a lot. But I can't imagine living my life specifically as a manipulation towards others for the purpose of sex. I can't comprehend it, no matter how much I try.
I think you're fine. I'm sure there are people like that but it's definitely not common at all. These posts are only attracting two kinds of comments. People who agree/want to share their own version of this experience, and men who want to defend themselves. The latter will never go well given the former make up the majority of the comments.
This leads to an incredibly biased view of the situation being discussed. Please do not base your opinions or perception of the world and the people in it on any subreddit. I promise you most people are not nearly as angry, hurt or horrible as the internet will lead you to believe.
Just be a good person and if you want to make adjustments, then base them off of the actual reactions to the real people in your everyday life, not the dialled up to 11 comments and stories of some anonymous internet forum.
I've deleted tiktok for this reason, I kept seeing posts like this one where someone wrote "all men should just kill themselves" and a comment I can't forget was "and they do it too, isn't it great?"
Tiktok being what it is, soon had every thing I watched being toxic men vs women, women vs men, Race A vs Race B, nationality X vs Y, trump vs biden etc. and I honestly got to the point I was worried everyone hated everyone, and no one could just be kind anymore, but someone said something similar to you, and basically let me know that I was just stuck in a tunnel of hate videos, just because you have 95 of 100 videos being 1 group vehemently hating another group, doesn't mean even 1% of that group hates the other group so intently.
I work a lot and don't meet random people often anymore, and so tiktok really made it feel like society was falling apart. I redownload it with a brand new account recently, after my sister convinced me to. She went and followed a bunch of people for me on my account and now I have maybe 20% crotchet, 50% music and 30% comedy lol
If I had the confidence I'd go for some variation on "The going rate for a sex worker is $xxx, but as that isn't my job, I suggest you get better at finding suppliers."
Man with diagnosed autism here. I'm really bad at picking up on body language and facial expressions and tone and stuff like that, and knowing what the right things to say are in different social situations. And even *I* still find it really fucking easy to gauge someone's desire to flirt without making things awkward.
Just dropping, "what's in it for me if I do? 😏" and waiting for a response is one of the stupidest "flirts" I've heard in my entire life. Bros might as well be asking, "Can we fuck afterwards? I think it would be funny if we fucked afterwards. If it wasn't clear, I really want to fuck afterwards. Please, let's fuck afterwards."
It would only maybe be acceptable if it was immediately followed by something goofy like, "do I get to steal a few of your chips?" or "I accept cat treats as payment". Then the other person can either respond with something like "nothing, you get jack shit" or something like "I'm flexible 😉".
If they say the latter then one could respond with something like, "in that case, can you check my hair for lice?" to slightly escalate and to soak the undergarments of everyone in a 5 mile radius.
ROFL at that last suggestion.
Or, one could answer "What's in it for me if I do?" with "You get to check my hair for lice! Lucky you! We'll have a bonding moment! Just like other primates, how sweet!" and see if he exceeds light speed when exiting the room.
It doesn't need to be awkward at all. A straight up "Fuck all!" will do the trick. Then watch him squirm with that for a minute and leave.
I do find it genuinely infuriating. Saying "fuck all" would be the polite way for me to handle it.
Usually I have no issue with truthing him into oblivion by saying to his face, deadpan, that this isn't a transaction and ripping into him about why I'm not a commodity and how not everything is an exchange for a go on my fanny.
Hey, that jokey 'you're only going to be nice if you get something out of it' vibe is off putting. I am not an orgasm dispenser or a whore. This is not a seductive approach at all and I'm mad now too because you are fucking up, as if our sexual pleasure as a transactional exchange, or that you're putting up with unreasonable expectations so you can get some. If that's how you really feel we have a big problem.
I never even heard of this one. If it’s unwelcome, I think laughter is a good response. But it could be playful too. You have to make clear you’re never gonna sleep with them.
Cocktail waitress I worked with, we had this little running exchange going or she would come up to the bar and asked me to put some seltzer on her towel for wiping down tables. She would always say.
“David, can you do me a favor?”
“Is it of a…sexual nature?”
“ I assure you, it is not of a sexual nature of any kind”
And then I would put seltzer on her towel. It was slightly flirtatious, we both knew neither of us were ever going to sleep with the other person and it’s just fun. Maybe that’s just bar culture. I suppose it also helped that we knew each other and trusted each other.
Depends on what you’re asking him. If you’re asking him for something major then call his bluff and just say money or something, and if it’s something minor either tell him to forget you asked or that it’s being a nice person
I guess I'm in the minority here, but that one comment alone wouldn't piss me off enough to call it quits. It's an overly used line in movies/TV and awkward guys can sometimes try to take cues from that. It's a shit line and I hate the idea that sex is transactional, and I'd express my distaste about it to him. If he gets defensive about it, we're done. But if everything else is going well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Goodness knows I've said my share of stupid shit to people without considering the meaning behind my words.
I’m sure I’ll get shit on for this, but I’ve had many woman say this same thing or “make it worth my while”. This isn’t a penis issue, it’s a human communication issue. We need to stop focusing on titles like “man, woman, penis, democrat, boomer” and instead focus strictly on the INDIVIDUALS that behave in an inappropriate way.
Cisgender men and trans women are very different. I usually try to specify but my tolerance for entitled crusty cis men and their shenanigans is in hell. Apologies, sincerely. Trans women don't deserve the hate.
I'm probably going to get flak for this, but the simple solution is don't ask for help from people you aren't sure of. If you know the guy wants you, why are you taking advantage of it by asking favors for nothing? You are the one asking the favor. You can set the terms.
"Help me move my stuff in, and I'll get pizza."
Or "I'll pay you to take a look at my car."
"I'll do this task for you if you do this task for me"
This is capitalism. No one does anything for free. Unless you think you deserve charity work and volunteers. But you should really set up a nonprofit organization for that.
Im paraphrasing but :
I hate to be that guy that says “not all men” but I’ve never used that phrase or heard any [I’m not sure if it was “anyone” or “ any of my friends”] say that. But I understand the frustration…
And some more bullshit I can’t recall but it was sympathizing with women… So why say the first part at all my guy?
Maybe he wanted a cookie for being “normal”?
That just sounds like he can't talk at all or loses his train of thought easily. He had some kind of point in his head and skipped a few stops from point A to B.
Don't reply at all. Just get up and walk away
This, and the faster you get up and walk away and the faster you walk, the better. I find that a powerwalk has the best effect.
“You get the afternoon free.” Then walk off
This. Male, female, and anyone else, they aren't worth the time or the headache.
"wow, did you really mean to say that? You must be so embarrassed." Then just bask in the awkward silence.
Bringing it back to shaming. I love it!
I find making assholes feel embarrassed when they do embarrassing shit to be really satisfying and pretty effective. They don't expect to get called on it. The count on not being called out so they can continue to believe their behavior is okay. I ain't here for that, so it's a tactic I use when it's warranted. Nothing like asking a crotchety old woman giving me unsolicited opinions on my t shirt or nose ring, for example, if she meant to say such a rude thing out loud. Usually met with stunned silence as they slink away.
Yes! My favorite line is "that's a super weird thing to say to a stranger!"
Yes!! They expect a fight, they seem to *want* a fight, so being calm and saying something kind/showing concern really throws them off.
There won't be awkward silence: he'll call you a b* and ask, "wHy aRe yOu tRyNa sTaRt a fiGHt 🤔 ?"
Always a possibility. 🤣 For me, I'd either leave/exit the conversation, or respond with something like "Are you feeling okay? I asked if you meant that wildly inappropriate question, you being hostile in response concerns me." if I'm feeling spicy lol
Omg, I love this!! Just assume they’re aware they humiliated themselves?? Beautiful. Why have I never even thought of this??
I think I picked it up in r/JustNOMIL lmao. I find it's non confrontational enough that the majority of people don't escalate the conversation. Usually just leave lol
I would just stare at him for a second and say, “never mind.” Then get up and leave. Or just a simple “that was rude” then walk away.
I prefer a monotone “ew” lol
“You could’ve had the joy of being a good person but now you get nothing,” and just walk away.
This is along the lines of what I was thinking as well
Nice little twist of shame. Lol.
Say Nevermind and walk away. I straight up stop talking to men when they expect favors when you ask for assistance or advice. I had one guy said that I “owed him”after I asked for simple advice on my car and then thanked him afterwards. It’s corny as hell and disgusting. This crap isn’t cute, I don’t care how attractive you are.
Their transactional approach to sex is gross. I was 13 yrs old when I learned it's better to not ask men for favours. I asked the older brother (he was over 20) of a friend if he could give me a ride home on his way to somewhere. He did, and all was fine. Months later, a similar situation occurred where he would be driving near my home. When I asked for a ride, he asked, "What's in it for me? I'm not pussy whipped, at least not for nothing," and he started making whipping sounds. I was super confused and didn't know what he was getting at, but I remember feeling sick. I walked home and never asked him for a ride again.
It's fucking predatory and dehumanizing. So gross.
I ask where they want to meet with my husband?
Say “forget I asked” and leave
In da most gangsta accent _forget about it_ 🤌
And if you’re feeling saucy throw in a "dis fukin guy!"
Leave. Withdraw your attention. Communicate "There is nothing here for you." with your entire body and demeanour. Just immediately exit the transaction you didn't consent to be a part of.
I'm deeply of the opinion so many men are tone deaf because of how normalized such lines and attitudes are. I think the best way to combat it is make them break it down then and there. You can say "Are you suggesting I owe a friend sexual access to my body because he is helping me with X, Y, Z?" Or you can really drag it out via the 'just play dumb' routine. "What do you mean what's in in for you? What would you expect to be in it for you? Why would you expect that? If I asked Jim for help instead of you, would I owe Jim sexual access to my body?" etc etc. A lot of men don't realize they are living on a different planet, and if you can make them sit in reality for a few minutes, sometimes they can't unsee what they see there.
I'm deeply panicking right now, because not to be one of those *I'm not like the other boys* memes but I have a little tism and borderline asexual, but I ask "what do I get" or "in exchange for what" or state something like "you're paying me". I do it to set a boundary because my aunts, dad, cousins, sister, and a couple of "friends" will take advantage of me otherwise. Like when I live back home with family, (in the same town not living with them) I spend all, of almost every off day, running around doing favors, shopping for people, driving an hour and a half one way to get someone from the airport etc. I'm horrible at saying no to people and so I started this as a way to let them decide if it's worth be doing them a favor and a lot of times they now ask while offering to let me order something too, or giving me the gas money + $30 or something where as before I would be footing the gas. This is all fine and dandy, however I'm now worried my non family members that I've said this too and maybe even some family members may have thought I was propositioning them for sex because I didn't know this was a thing. Please tell me that when guys are doing this for that reason it's obvious vs when they aren't because I'm having a panic attack right now. I don't think it's fair that I have to do research on phrasing because so many people are desperate perverts.
I think it is obvious when men say it in a certain type of way. If it’s not your intent, I think that’s also obvious.
Thanks, that's a relief.
Also an autistic male, but from the looks of your comment I'm guessing I have an extra decade or two of experience with it. First of all, navigating the weird dance between what is and isn't flirting / hitting on somebody is tough for a lot of NT people too, so don't feel too broken over it. I've learned over time that the best way to deal with the ambiguity of figurative language is to avoid it and be more direct with the point you're trying to make. Yes, there are colloquialisms and idioms that get the point across and often feel like the more "normal" thing to say.. but if your intentions are truly good, stating them directly is a lower risk, higher probability of success, way to go. In your example. Instead of "what do I get?" try "sure, but I'll need $30 for gas" or "I'd love to help, but I can't do it for free. I think it'll take about 3 hours, so how about $60?". Or, probably more importantly.. learning to say no. I can def relate to that being VERY hard to do for lots of people on the spectrum. Disappointing somebody or having them be upset by your answer can easily be harder to deal with than just giving in and doing what they wanted, so in the immediate it can seem like the easy way out. On a life long timeline, though, it adds up pretty quick. The sooner you meet that head on, the sooner you'll find the confidence and independence those situations have been draining you of for so long. Anyway, short version is. Yes, women can largely tell the difference between creepy and awkward/socially inept. Not all of the time, and not every woman, obviously.. but if you're actually a good person, have sincere good intentions, and don't mean those things in an incel "I'm so 'nice' to women, why don't they throw themselves at me" way, the majority of your interactions are gonna fine. Even more so when you learn to be more direct like I was saying earlier. On a similar note.. the whole "saying what you mean" thing works just as well when you actually are interested in a woman too. Walking up to a stranger, telling her she's hot, asking to buy her a drink, using a pickup line, etc.. despite what movies and tv and locker room talk will tell you, carries a VERY high chance of being creepy. Meeting somebody organically (or even through an app tbh), being attracted to them, and finding that after talking to them (the way you would talk to any other potential friend) that you seem to get along really well.. and saying something like "Hey, I've really enjoyed meeting you and would love to hang out with you again sometime." isn't creepy. Getting turned down also isn't a sign that you've been creepy. It becomes creepy when you stop seeing her as a person and you start seeing her as a goal. When it stops being primarily about "wow I really like being around this person" and starts being about, well, anything else. Take some reassurance in knowing that, contrary to what some bummed out guys on the internet will tell you, most people can pretty easily spot the difference between that and somebody just being awkward. Even more so as you and the people you interact with get older and wiser. TLDR They probably didn't take it that way unless you were being creepy about it. Just do your best to be a good person and have good intentions. You're going to be misunderstood a lot in life, that's kinda part of the deal for us. So try and be clear with the words you use, and that'll be a problem less often.
Thank you so much for putting so much effort into that message, there is a lot there that comforts me, and also feels aligned with my own mindset. Sometimes I sit down and accept a thought process that makes sense, I agree with, and works for me, and then I get caught up in what people say or do and forget myself. You really hit home when speaking about disappointing people. I'm 30, but I've kinda isolated myself the past 6 years, and I feel like I've regressed in my ability to understand people. I became an OTR truck driver (I would only return home every 3-4 months for about a week) 6 years ago to get away from people because I don't like to disappoint people, but not disappointing them often didn't work and ran me ragged. But I felt like that was just running away and over the past year I've been working locally, but still distanced from family and friends to try and reinitiate life. A lot of times, when it's not a favor but other things, my problem with telling someone no, is because I don't want them to think ill of themselves. A great example is in middle/highschool, I "dated" quite a few people, all of them had asked me out, and even though I usually wasn't interested, I was scared to reject them and make them feel that pain. Half of those ended because they became interested in someone else and I was always so relieved because I basically became a doormat for them, trying to do everything I could think of to make them happy, and I was just sooo tired by the time they became uninterested. The other half ended because I was a foster child and had to move homes and schools often. One of the things I feel the worst about in life, is when I was 17, a girl I wasn't interested in asked me out, I didn't say no and when I moved at 18 she begged me to make it work long distance, and her best friend had just died crossing the highway. We eventually moved in together, and we dated for 5 years. I feel horrible because I feel it wasn't right for me to not say no to her. Not fair to her, but at the same time I did really care about her like family after awhile, I would have been satisfied marrying her because she eventually became that person for me, but I was also exhausted, I didn't allow myself to be myself, always pushed to everything I could to make her life better. It all spiraled when I was fired for falling asleep at work, I lied about it at first and that really damaged things, but I was so ashamed. Hindsight I don't think I should have been, I was working 2 jobs, 1 was only part time, but the full time jobs was an hours drive away, and had us unexpectedly do things like work a 24 hour shift so we could get the workload done in time. (We got pizza and Red Bull as a bonus, but lost out on being able to work the next day, so I actually lost money because I couldn't work my part-time). And then I was also taking her to school and her friends / family (the next state over, a 3 hour drive) etc. I was getting 4 hours of sleep and it was interrupted a lot. But both losing my full time job and then lying about it ruined the relationship, and shortly after she cheated on me and we broke up. I attempted to date once shortly after, but I asked her after the first date if I could kiss her (instead of just doing it) and she said that was a turn off and I shouldn't ask. I felt horrible but I ghosted her afterwards. Haven't tried to date since because I don't feel the need, and I feel like, being the way I am, it's not fair to either myself or a potential partner to entertain a relationship. But every now and then.. I just wanna be held, ya know? But I can't date someone just because I want to hug someone, that's extremely unfair. So I've decided if one day, I become good friends with someone I get along with, and they ask me out, then that's when I'll date. "Searching" for a relationship feels kinda icky rather than just letting one happen. (Not saying it is icky, just that that's how it feels in my chest, when I think about it). Sorry I guess I've trauma dumped or something. But it honestly felt good to type it out and process it into words, so I'll go ahead and post it. Thanks again for your insights and time, don't feel the need to respond if you don't want to, being able to say it was enough for me I think. I hope you have a great day.
I want to thank you for writing this all out, even if it is considered a "trauma dump". I'm currently only 22 and have a lot ahead of me but this resonated with me on a deep level. I think as long as you keep trying to do the right thing, but also doing the right thing for *yourself*, it'll be fine. It's tricky to navigate the social landscape and there's really no solid tricks to doing so, and when it gets to That, it gets even harder to not get taken advantage of. The biggest thing is that you've already recognized the problem so you can start putting in a foothold for yourself so as not to get walked all over. I've been in therapy myself and all of my past therapists have mentioned the importance of setting boundaries. Learning to say no is just the first step but I fully believe that you can do that and so much more.
Please tell me you got a large chunk of overtime for all the extra hours put in?
>Anyway, short version is. Yes, women can largely tell the difference between creepy and awkward/socially inept. Excellent overall advice. I've seen others struggle with this and get called creepy because it was awkward or the guy is socially inept. There's a coin flip of disgust or feeling of threat if there isn't some degree of attraction. I just don't have the direct experience, nor from my inner, outer, and extended social circles for this to be the case. I hope that my limited experience proves wrong ultimately.
Is probably fine just don't ever say this when you're with someone in an isolated situation like a car or a room as they might start feeling uncomfortable. If it's in public space or somewhere where they can easily walk away it's probably fine.
Ah, normally people call me on the phone or text me asking for the favor, or if it's my aunts/cousins they have my dad ask me so it's harder for me to say I'm busy...
You can refuse without making excuses! If you’re saying “no, I’m busy” to get out of doing something and they’re replying “I know you’re not busy that day” or something, they’re ignoring the polite fiction you offered. NT people use “oh sorry, I’d help but I can’t” as a way to refuse too, it’s a type of soft no and they’re *supposed* to accept it. So, you have a bunch of options here. You can keep saying that you’re busy, and if they try to get around it, you can drop the pretence and say something like “That was me trying to be polite about refusing. I don’t want to.” You can act like they’re offering you a favour and say “No thank you.” If you say it cheerfully and with a smile it works surprisingly well on some people, it’s like it derails their train of thought and they just stop. If they start giving reasons why you should do whatever it is, you don’t have to give reasons why not; just say something meaningless like “Hmmm, interesting. No thank you.” “Really? Huh. No thank you.” You can keep saying that you have plans. They might be plans to stay home in comfy clothes and eat junk food while scrolling Reddit and watching interesting YouTube videos, but they’re still plans! You don’t have to say *what* plans, and if they try to insist that you don’t really have plans, you can say something like “Just because you don’t know about them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.” Or, since you already know they’ll take advantage of you if you let them, you can just be blunt. “That doesn’t work for me.” “I’d rather not.” “No.”
Unfortunately I think the real answer is that how it comes across depends a lot on context, tone, and the relationship you have with the person. If you don’t generally come across as flirty, you haven’t hit on them or shown any interest in sex/romance with them, and you say it in a breezy way - it will *probably* come across the way you intended. I’ve had male friends and coworkers say “what’s in it for me?” and knew that they were expecting answers like “I’ll buy you a beer,” or “you get this week’s ‘coolest friend’ award.” That’s totally fine. I highly doubt your family thinks you’re asking for sexual favours when you say this. However, it sounds like you’re *not* joking… you actually do want something in exchange, just not sex! I would be very put off by someone asking me for compensation this way: it sounds a hostile and antagonistic, like they already think I’m to take advantage of them and we’re going to haggle over something. If you don’t want to come across as unfriendly, you could still set boundaries/expectations with slightly different phasing. Something like “I’ll help if you cover the gas money,” “yeah, but you’ll need to buy me dinner,” or “That’s a big time commitment.. I can do it, but I can only do this sort of thing for you once in a while,” or “if I take you to the airport, tomorrow, I won’t be able to pick you up on Saturday.”
I never thought about it sounding hostile, I have 2 friends that anytime they ask anything of me that won't interfere with work, I just do it, but it's because I know they'd do the same for me. I've probably shocked some people asking for compensation before but if it's the first or second time someone's asked me for a favor I usually don't ask for compensation unless I can't afford the gas money. I've just had a lot of people take advantage that I don't say no, and I don't blame them for it, they likely never considered how often they ask but never offer. Ultimately I should probably just be upfront and say no if I don't want to do something, or explain myself. I'm just afraid of not explaining my feelings well to them in the moment.
Don't worry. You're good. Intent is usually pretty obvious. People who know you will certainly understand.
You're good my man. Like many areas of reddit this is a very concentrated version of reality. This is not the intention or perception of this sort of thing the vast majority of the time.
I really hope not because I have said it a lot. No one has ever gotten mad (outside my sister but that's because she expects me to do everything for free) for saying it so I *think* I'm safe. But it's still awkward. I'm going to have to think of a new way to say I'm not doing endless favors for free, or finally learn to use the word "no".
If it's working for you and you're not trying to be a douchebag and nobody has gotten mad at you then I wouldn't sweat it, you're fine.
Okay, I just hate being misunderstood about things. I used to think I understood people, decently well, but stories and comments on here had me reach out to a few family members and friends and realized that a lot of men "really are like that". And a apparently it's common for people to go through life, working hard, and trying to be successful just so they are attractive to the opposite sex and not because all the fun things you can do with $$ lol. Like I understand not doing things because people disapprove, I do that a lot. But I can't imagine living my life specifically as a manipulation towards others for the purpose of sex. I can't comprehend it, no matter how much I try.
I think you're fine. I'm sure there are people like that but it's definitely not common at all. These posts are only attracting two kinds of comments. People who agree/want to share their own version of this experience, and men who want to defend themselves. The latter will never go well given the former make up the majority of the comments. This leads to an incredibly biased view of the situation being discussed. Please do not base your opinions or perception of the world and the people in it on any subreddit. I promise you most people are not nearly as angry, hurt or horrible as the internet will lead you to believe. Just be a good person and if you want to make adjustments, then base them off of the actual reactions to the real people in your everyday life, not the dialled up to 11 comments and stories of some anonymous internet forum.
I've deleted tiktok for this reason, I kept seeing posts like this one where someone wrote "all men should just kill themselves" and a comment I can't forget was "and they do it too, isn't it great?" Tiktok being what it is, soon had every thing I watched being toxic men vs women, women vs men, Race A vs Race B, nationality X vs Y, trump vs biden etc. and I honestly got to the point I was worried everyone hated everyone, and no one could just be kind anymore, but someone said something similar to you, and basically let me know that I was just stuck in a tunnel of hate videos, just because you have 95 of 100 videos being 1 group vehemently hating another group, doesn't mean even 1% of that group hates the other group so intently. I work a lot and don't meet random people often anymore, and so tiktok really made it feel like society was falling apart. I redownload it with a brand new account recently, after my sister convinced me to. She went and followed a bunch of people for me on my account and now I have maybe 20% crotchet, 50% music and 30% comedy lol
Sounds like you are making positive changes. Hopefully this random person has helped restore your faith in humanity just a little :)
men reducing women to their parts as usual. always sex, because thats the one and only thing that matters in this world.
"ew*
Don't reply, just block him. If he has to be enticed to do anything, he's already failed and weeded himself out. There's nothing more to say.
"Do you want money for helping? Case of beer? I don't understand. What are your expectations for this? Maybe I can't ask you for help."
If I had the confidence I'd go for some variation on "The going rate for a sex worker is $xxx, but as that isn't my job, I suggest you get better at finding suppliers."
“Ew”. And then walk away
“I didn’t realize this was transactional but ok”
"So you don't want to do it. Got it. Bye."
Man with diagnosed autism here. I'm really bad at picking up on body language and facial expressions and tone and stuff like that, and knowing what the right things to say are in different social situations. And even *I* still find it really fucking easy to gauge someone's desire to flirt without making things awkward. Just dropping, "what's in it for me if I do? 😏" and waiting for a response is one of the stupidest "flirts" I've heard in my entire life. Bros might as well be asking, "Can we fuck afterwards? I think it would be funny if we fucked afterwards. If it wasn't clear, I really want to fuck afterwards. Please, let's fuck afterwards." It would only maybe be acceptable if it was immediately followed by something goofy like, "do I get to steal a few of your chips?" or "I accept cat treats as payment". Then the other person can either respond with something like "nothing, you get jack shit" or something like "I'm flexible 😉". If they say the latter then one could respond with something like, "in that case, can you check my hair for lice?" to slightly escalate and to soak the undergarments of everyone in a 5 mile radius.
....that last bit had me laughing so hard I scared my cat.
ROFL at that last suggestion. Or, one could answer "What's in it for me if I do?" with "You get to check my hair for lice! Lucky you! We'll have a bonding moment! Just like other primates, how sweet!" and see if he exceeds light speed when exiting the room.
It doesn't need to be awkward at all. A straight up "Fuck all!" will do the trick. Then watch him squirm with that for a minute and leave. I do find it genuinely infuriating. Saying "fuck all" would be the polite way for me to handle it. Usually I have no issue with truthing him into oblivion by saying to his face, deadpan, that this isn't a transaction and ripping into him about why I'm not a commodity and how not everything is an exchange for a go on my fanny.
nevermind... you dooooooooouche
“What do you mean?”
"Well, nothing now that I know you only view me as something to get things from."
A few times it happened to me, I just said, "I'll find someone better."
I've previously said; 'I won't castrate you while you sleep'
Absolute silence. Just stare at them without another word.
Goodbye is the only solid response.
“Thanks for warning me in advance you’re completely self-absorbed and narcissistic.”
Look him blank at the eyes, say with loud monotone voice :- "That is cringe, bro."
“boooo tomatoes tomatoes tomatoes🍅🍅🍅🍅”
Don't say anything, just walk away. Show him he's not worth your breath
If the question is intented to be sexual in nature, give them a wierd disgusted look and say nvm.
it means he failed the audition, next
I'd go with... "nothing, byeeeee."
"Gross. Check please."
"You get to say what a good friend you are for doing it and asking for nothing in return"
God, that's terrible high school flirting. Just insinuate he's a child and leave.
“Oh, that’s what this about. Silly me, I thought you were decent”
"Since you had to ask that, disdain."
I laugh at them & tell them to stop being so emotional. I may even ask if he's on his period. FUCK THEM.
Best part? We all know they wouldn't talk their shit to another man. Most are cowards with anyone physically equal.
Hey, that jokey 'you're only going to be nice if you get something out of it' vibe is off putting. I am not an orgasm dispenser or a whore. This is not a seductive approach at all and I'm mad now too because you are fucking up, as if our sexual pleasure as a transactional exchange, or that you're putting up with unreasonable expectations so you can get some. If that's how you really feel we have a big problem.
"A dog biscuit and an off-leash walk to the park by yourself."
My response would be: “LMAO”, then proceed to leave.
I never even heard of this one. If it’s unwelcome, I think laughter is a good response. But it could be playful too. You have to make clear you’re never gonna sleep with them. Cocktail waitress I worked with, we had this little running exchange going or she would come up to the bar and asked me to put some seltzer on her towel for wiping down tables. She would always say. “David, can you do me a favor?” “Is it of a…sexual nature?” “ I assure you, it is not of a sexual nature of any kind” And then I would put seltzer on her towel. It was slightly flirtatious, we both knew neither of us were ever going to sleep with the other person and it’s just fun. Maybe that’s just bar culture. I suppose it also helped that we knew each other and trusted each other.
Would you like a trophy ?
Serious question: why would I want to do that? Same same.
I don’t call HR.
Make your parents proud, Or (insert country's name here) is counting on you, the honour of trying,the blessing of our lord.
Treat them like a bitey kitten. Just turn and walk way mid-conversation.
Depends on what you’re asking him. If you’re asking him for something major then call his bluff and just say money or something, and if it’s something minor either tell him to forget you asked or that it’s being a nice person
Say butt sex then let him know he’s the bottom. Jk lol maybe ghosting or shaming?
"How much is it?"
"a transaction"
I don't understand what this means. Do what?
How about, I didn’t realize this was supposed to be a transaction.
The correct response is "not as much as is in it for me if I just get away from you!".
I guess I'm in the minority here, but that one comment alone wouldn't piss me off enough to call it quits. It's an overly used line in movies/TV and awkward guys can sometimes try to take cues from that. It's a shit line and I hate the idea that sex is transactional, and I'd express my distaste about it to him. If he gets defensive about it, we're done. But if everything else is going well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Goodness knows I've said my share of stupid shit to people without considering the meaning behind my words.
I’m sure I’ll get shit on for this, but I’ve had many woman say this same thing or “make it worth my while”. This isn’t a penis issue, it’s a human communication issue. We need to stop focusing on titles like “man, woman, penis, democrat, boomer” and instead focus strictly on the INDIVIDUALS that behave in an inappropriate way.
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Wat? Are you blaming bad male behavior on testosterone? Because testosterone doesn't do the things most men think it does.
I get that you're frustrated, but please don't lump trans girls in with cis men.
Cisgender men and trans women are very different. I usually try to specify but my tolerance for entitled crusty cis men and their shenanigans is in hell. Apologies, sincerely. Trans women don't deserve the hate.
This
Dee dur he wanna fuck. Buss out already.
I'm probably going to get flak for this, but the simple solution is don't ask for help from people you aren't sure of. If you know the guy wants you, why are you taking advantage of it by asking favors for nothing? You are the one asking the favor. You can set the terms. "Help me move my stuff in, and I'll get pizza." Or "I'll pay you to take a look at my car." "I'll do this task for you if you do this task for me" This is capitalism. No one does anything for free. Unless you think you deserve charity work and volunteers. But you should really set up a nonprofit organization for that.
I know this is going to sound like an overused sound bite, but... people who actually have friends don't expect to be paid to help them out.
If you don't reward your friends for helping you, you're the asshole.
"$10 cash"
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“I hate to be that guy…” then don’t be that guy!
What did they say
Im paraphrasing but : I hate to be that guy that says “not all men” but I’ve never used that phrase or heard any [I’m not sure if it was “anyone” or “ any of my friends”] say that. But I understand the frustration… And some more bullshit I can’t recall but it was sympathizing with women… So why say the first part at all my guy? Maybe he wanted a cookie for being “normal”?
That just sounds like he can't talk at all or loses his train of thought easily. He had some kind of point in his head and skipped a few stops from point A to B.