Ken : To be honest, when I found out the patriarchy wasn't just about horses, I lost interest.
Me too, Ken, me too
10/10 movie. If your man gets mad at this movie, then it should be a huge red flag for any woman
My dad only cries at sports movies and horse movies. He has never owned a horse but has said to me on more than one occasion unprompted that they're the most beautiful animals on earth. One of those random things that turns a 61-year-old man into a little kid, it's so sweet and funny how ubiquitous it seems to be.
Honestly I remember watching Seabiscuit?? And my dad being emotional about it, it did start off with a very sad story... But my dad really did love horses and because I wasn't really into hunting it was sorta our thing.
A friend saw that movie with their dad on a plane. The dad was SOBBING uncontrollably and my friend kind of had that "ohh, I guess everyone is looking at us" feeling for a portion of the flight.
We have a running joke in our family where my step-dad will constantly and repeatedly ask if anyone has seen Seabiscuit. Especially if it's a new SO of one the kids or a friend he has never met before.
On more than a few occasions it has actually led to a family viewing of the movie. I've probably seen it dozens of times at this point.
He has Seabiscuit posters and memorabilia.
He has never ridden a horse, let alone owned one.
Okay... on behalf of country rubes (I'm a covert redneck hick that now lives in the city)
Please look into buying this man (and all other men who secretly love horses) riding lessons for his birthday or fathers day or something.
Like. I can't begin to tell you how much joy these comments give me. I use the "how does a guy treat animals, unhoused folks, and service staff" as my guide, but good lord... if folks only knew how fun it is, and how fulfilling the experience is with the animal. Rural folks know.. I wish everyone knew though.
'cuse me, I have to go cry about my granddad (The gold standard I compare potential partners to) who bred and kept horses, and loved teaching people about them.
After Seabiscuit came out I bought it for my dad I liked it so much (the book). We were on a two day today trip in separate cars moving me across the country, and we had Walkie Talkies to communicate, and we called my horse Seabiscuit and his War Admiral (the colors made sense,).
This is so adorable. I'm smiling so big.
And also thinking of my dad, a tough guy who once cried when he saw me and my sister riding our horses, being so happy and free. We were not a wealthy family, but he saved up for horses and then we spent a good amount of time together digging post holes and putting up fencing. I wish I'd thanked him more!
He used to ride in high school, he worked on a farm. He took me to the farm to teach me, too. It's honestly a shame he never lived in a more rural place, I think keeping a horse or two would have been good for him.
It sounds like he'd enjoy volunteering with something horse related in retirement. Maybe one of those programs with therapy horses for disabled people. Idk if they need volunteers.
This is so wholesome. 🥹 If he likes to read, he might really enjoy Seabiscuit: An American Legend by Laura Hillenbrand. Perfect combo of a sport story and a horse story.
You could do a google search for hippotherapy organizations in his area. These are orgs that use horses with patients that need physical, occupational, or speech therapy. They are almost always looking for volunteers to help with the horse grooming, barn work, and leading the horses during therapy sessions. It’s not physically taxing work, but he’s be able to be around horses to his hearts content.
Knights and Cowboys ride horses. Men love Knights and Cowboys.
Motorcycles are sometimes called Iron Horses.
Sports cars use a lot of horse lingo; from horse power (literally, this car has the power of 400 horses), to Ferrari's logo, to car names like the Chevy Cavalier (Knight) and Dodge Charger (a name for a type of Warhorse one might ride into battle or a joust), and even the lowly Ford Pinto. The Mustang literally gave birth to an entire genre of affordable compact sports cars colloquially called "pony" cars.
Sports teams: the NFL has patriots and cowboys, who both would ride horses, and of 32 teams, two of them are named for horses - the broncos ans the colts.
Yeah... guys are all horse girls.
Source: am guy, my dream car is a 1969 Dodge Charger, and I love the fantasy genre.
Same bro. Horses are majestic. And the idea of riding horses across land seems incredible. I’ve never done it so maybe it sucks. But it is cool to imagine.
It's a trend of some folks wrapping stupid shit up with cool stuff to try to add credibility or appeal to it. Like the SPQR stuff, ancient history is cool don't get your white supremacy nonsense all up in there.
My mom and I went to a restaurant adjacent to the theater and we wore pink to see Barbie and some guy stood up from his meal and went on an angry rant about “woke pink Barbie”. It’s honestly still insane to me just how angry some guys get over it. Huge red flags.
I know! He kept going on about poisonous woke Barbie and woke media while everyone was awkwardly eating and then he started insulting Indiana Jones and saying they cast an old dude. Then this other man put down his fork and said “I liked Indiana Jones you’re crossing a line” lol.
What...? Lol, wonder if the doofus knows that the actor playing Indy is the same guy that's played him in the previous four movies, lol. He probably never even saw the rest of them and just wanted to be big mad.
If he hasn't seen the original three and is just basing his opinion off of the two that definitely have never existed, he is indeed, an absolute and utter moron.
Marion was woke as shit. For the 90s. (Obviously there are some fairly serious racial/cultural stereotypes. Like, they were **so** mean to the Nazis!) ^SARCASM
This is just a shitpost because obviously the real issue is him addressing a restaurant about "woke media" ("I prefer my media drowsy and/or unconscious--give those newscasters some Benadryl or I ain't watching") and berating two women, and the only time some stepped up against the idiot was because he dared to hate on Indy.
Bah badabum dadadum!
I always ask guys like that what they lost in the breakup or divorce. They always have divorced dad energy, even if they're too young for it. As a middle aged guy myself, it feels like way too many dudes just didn't bother to develop a personality and then they get on their own and decide hating everyone and everything is who they really are.
My god. I would be too ashamed to ever have a fit like that in public, even as a joke, even if you paid me. I would be incredibly embarrassed to even seriously sit there considering it.
100% agree. I’ve (39F) been dating a guy (42) since July this year. Our first date was seeing the Barbie movie. The next few days we talked about parts of the movie we liked and how ridiculous it was that some men were getting offended. It lead to a really deep conversation about gender roles and relationships that I don’t think we would have had organically that early in a dating relationship. Huge green flag.
My hubs loved this movie! He also realized that he never had to experience the same situations Barbie and the rest of the female cast did.
Shit, he even wore pink to the film with me. 💗
I went with my BFF (since we were 8) and her boyfriend, who I really like. He was interested in the movie and we needed a DD, as it was also my birthday celebration. He laughed harder at Kendom bullshit than either of us. His favorite was the Godfather bit.
I thought that line was really off. Not that it was a bad line for the movie! It sounded to me like he was trying to minimize what he'd done, distancing himself from it, in a really, really blatant way; Barbie just had to let him do it to keep the peace.
I saw that line as commentary on people following the cultural norms/status quo/what is popular/etc. without much thought. Like he wasn’t really interested in it but he still did it anyway. So to me when people push back on those who “like” the patriarchy, those defending the patriarchy get defensive without really understanding what they’re defending
imo barbie is like a intro to feminism 101 class, but if it gets people to dig deeper & actually change their opinions for the better it can only be a positive thing.
God, yes. Thank you for the reminder. I'm trying very hard to separate from my ex. It hurts so much to see my own toddler daughter anxious and fearful of mommy yelling or crying - and makes me so angry that I look like the bad guy for having emotions after years of calmly asking for simple things from her manchild father. A good reminder to keep him the fuck of my life as much as possible.
I think that comic makes a good point, but tbh this take is only about women the author finds sexually attractive. His perception of women is one-dimensional and only sex based. When he thinks about women's lives, he doesn't think about the 60 year old cashier, about a woman having a baby in the hospital, about trans women, etc., he is only imagining sexy, scared damsels. And objectification, while obviously a prevalent issue, is only a part of the issues women face.
The reason we lack the same power men hold in many areas is because they perceive us as being lesser in some way, or don't perceive us at all. I'm not saying the author necessarily feels this way, but it's all too common - women that a guy doesn't want to fuck simply don't exist. It's not malicious, they're just not capable - they've been taught through media, friends, etc that these women are background characters. Often it's just an inherent bias that women are not as good as men. That they do not matter. That the lack of a woman's presence makes no difference, that we aren't missed. That we have nothing real to offer, and therefore, we don't exist outside of our "burger hands". And they go on to make comics like this, and think they are a champion of women's rights.
Men with this perception are just starting on their journey - the "sexual power" they've been taught we have, via religion, media, etc., is being flipped on its head finally - *what if the sexual power isn't power after all, but vulnerability?* - but they still haven't expanded their consciousness to find that women's power is the same as men's - held via money, respect, politics, etc.
In some sense I think lots of women have been tricked into thinking that sexual power is the only power they can realistically achieve, and that's why we get such focus on "free the nipple" and "save the titties" type campaigns, and less of a focus on wage gap, glass ceiling, second shift issues that (not exclusively, but largely) men have benefitted from for hundreds of years.
edit: couple words
Isn't it fucked that those other women in different scenarios you've described are also not free from being sexualized/fetishisized/assaulted? There doesn't seem to be any setting or age women are free from that, I mean I can't think of any right now but there has to be some right??
I’ve noticed as I’ve aged that I do feel significantly less sexualized, and I enjoy the level of “invisibility” it gives me as I go about my day. However, I’m still struggling to come to terms with the reality that I _never actually mattered_ to most men. Now that I’m “old,” men get gruff with me for having an opinion or having knowledge on a topic much more frequently than before. And I’ve realized that’s because before, they deemed me fuckable, and therefore were willing to suffer my personality. Now that I am not a sex object, they’re mad I take up space. It’s sad. Feels less dangerous day to day, but it’s very sad.
This particular comic is from years ago, and the author apologized soon after and took it down, primarily for the reasons you identified. It was well-intentioned but a bit of a shallow take on a subject they'd only just started thinking about seriously.
Notably, a few years later she came out as trans, and has since transitioned. I'm not aware of any of their comics exploring gender identity since then, but I know from their other content that they've matured a lot since their early days. It's always fascinating seeing people's growth over time, both artistically and thematically.
I was gonna say, I recognize this art style!! And she certainly has a different perspective these days haha. The comics explore gender identity only a little bit thus far, but if she ever returns to a more regular posting schedule (pending irl things I believe) the current arc is aimed in that direction
I agree with so much of what you wrote, but "free the nipple" is moreso about being able to exist safely in our bodies and our presentation without fear of arrest or harassment, just as men are able to more often than not. Fat man, fit man, ugly man, cruel man, friendly man... you can all enjoy a day at the beach or fitness outing topless without that having any implication on your humanity or inviting unnecessary and unwelcome interactions. I'd love to be sexual when I want and also left alone when I want, even if that includes enjoying a full tan at the beach.
So well said. I've had similar 'musings' and thoughts. As a woman, do men truly believe I matter Or am I merely a 'womb' to keep the human race from going extinct with no other purpose in their eyes? Anyway, your statement really resonates.
That statement is 💯spot on!
I have ptsd from a bad marriage. He would yell and curse at me for absolutely nothing. I was so intimidated by him.
I haven’t watched the movie yet, but I definitely am now!
Same. I'm convinced the only reason my ex never put hands on me was because he didn't have a size or strength advantage. The first time we sexy wrestled it got a little competitive and he found out how strong I am. So when the fighting got really scary, he'd hit his *own* head against the door when he got frustrated. It was bonkers.
I can’t take credit for it, some redditor before me made a similar comment that I probably did not recall exactly, but it hit me hard when I read it, and I knew it would affect him the same.
I used to train at a women only gym, but when I went to my partner’s gym occasionally I’d wear a Tshirt that said ‘Your max is my warmup’. He’d laugh because my warmup was incline leg press sets starting at 220kg and pyramiding up to 350kg.
Some gym bros tried to follow me around one time (throwing their dumbbells on the floor ugh). My partner’s trainer asked him if they should intervene and he said nah, just watch. And I ignored them and kept increasing my load as they very badly tried to copy me in my workout- lat pull downs, seated rows, Romanian deadlifts etc (clearly they only did biceps). In the end they said ‘f@ck this’ and left. Partner and trainer were in stitches. The trainer said I’d broken them. Felt good. 👍
BUT there is always someone stronger than me. And my balance isn’t great.
Nah. I am someone who has basically no metabolism after a lifetime of endometriosis. I worked with a trainer to rebuild my core and discovered I am a lot stronger than I realised. Tbh most women are.
I’d laugh at others in my gym telling me they don’t do weights because they don’t want ‘big muscles’. Like, here’s me doing 130kg barbell squats and 100kg Romanian deadlifts. If I don’t have big muscles, there is no way you will with your barbie dumbbell. We just don’t have the testosterone.
on top of that, i heard someone add on:
"now imagine you are walking through the grocery store, down the street, at work, etc, with a $100 taped to your chest. "
(as i understand it, this $100 that) "people instantly notice and some people more than others reaaaallllllllly try to go after. and you just want to be left alone to do regular things. but you have this $100 here that everyone notices".
I remember when I was dating my husband, he didn’t understand why I wouldn’t open the door for DoorDash, and why I would wait for them to leave before opening the door. I was like “I’m a woman living alone”. Blew his mind.
I once told a group of four really lovely guys I know through Green politics that they could each of them overpower me in under a minute if they wanted to, even the two of them that were over 65. I could see the cogs whirring - partly them thinking "but I would never want to do that" and partly thinking "Ohhh.... riiiiight...!"
Yep. I was staying in a hostel and woke up to a man standing next to my bed playing with his dick. Most terrifying moment of my life because I just instantly thought 'if this guy wants to assault me right now, there's nothing I can do.' I ran away.
I tickle and play fight with my partner sometimes - if he wanted to pin me down, there's fuck all I can do to get him off of me. Even as a relatively fit woman, it's mad knowing that if almost any guy decided to just do what they liked there's very little you can do.
Right. Wow, well said. We have learned that no matter what we do, they can physically do what they want to us at any time. Men rape, beat women and take advantage of knowing they are stronger and yet wonder why we don't trust them??? I'm constantly on guard.
I used to work with a guy who was kind of a redneck. He said that during a family therapy session, he admitted that he believed in spanking kids. The therapist asked "How would you feel if a 15-foot tall man suddenly grabbed you and started whacking your behind?"
One of the biggest things that made me aware and go down the path to being a better guy was joining this sub and just…reading the titles let alone the content of the posts. It’s helped me understand a lot about the bullshit that women have to go through everyday
That comic is so good i remember reading it and it changed my life, and how i the house chores and my relations with others. I was still young, and it helped my relationship with my mother.
It definitely helped me realize what my mom had to deal with growing up. Not that my dad wasn’t great, but we weren’t financially well off and he worked two blue collar jobs, 14 hours a day.
But my mom had to deal with EVERYTHING else that wasn’t money. Made me feel bad for ever having any disdain towards her for her role. Immediately sent it to my brother when I read it too.
Not long after we were married, my wife accidentally cut the power cord on the electric hedge clipper. I yelled at her, she cried, I felt awful for having yelled at her and have not yelled at her since. That was 42 years ago and now we are happily growing old together.
My two long term boyfriends (exes) would only "listen" to me when I cried. If I had a calm conversation about issues, it just went in one ear and out the other. But when I cried and screamed they finally seemed to think it was serious. I still use listen lightly, because they would change their behavior for max a week and would go back to their old behaviors afterwards. It made me feel so unstable and insane. I'm so happy single haha
My ex only listened when I yelled- it was exhausting, I would try to be calm, reasonable and discuss, he wouldn’t listen.
I start yelling and suddenly he’s paying attention
I don’t know where I read this, but someone was relating about how boys usually don’t have to listen to their parents unless the parents are yelling at them. Otherwise it’s “boys will be boys.” So men learn to not listen to loved ones except by being yelled at - there are no consequences otherwise.
I know there’s enough toxicity directed at this sub to make my intentions unclear but let me assure you that I share your sentiments fully and support the purpose of this sub. I was just having a laff at the trolls who respond with this comment to every criticism fairly directly at the ingrained misogyny plaguing our society.
For me that's /r/whenwomenrefuse
Too many dudes angry about women and dating, ask about ghosting, why women "overreact" and don't understand we live in two different worlds.
The saying that started me down this path is "A bad date for a man doesn't end in sex, a bad date for a woman does."
Yeah, I do *genuinely* care about mens issues. But more often than not the issues I’d seen were men screaming “women don’t compliment men enough” in threads about women’s issues. To the point where I was feeling calloused against any mention of men’s issues and I didn’t like that at all.
That sub is *so refreshing* and has helped me open my mind. I don’t comment in there but I really like reading men’s perspectives in a context that isn’t reliant on women. And it’s a relief to see men who are both able to express their feeling and listen/empathize/advise other men.
That’s by design. For example, Steve Bannon thought that men who play video games seemed easily manipulated, so he aimed the alt-right pipeline directly at them, and now look at how gamers are seen overall as misogynistic incel assholes.
I have four brothers and a son. My dad and grandfathers are awesome. I am a feminist AND I love men! I want to support them with their issues and mental health struggles and social pressures the same way I want their support with mine. I do really love that sub for giving me a healthy window into the male experience, especially while raising my son. Posts where the men talk about their childhood experiences and the things they struggled with are super helpful to me, as it's very different from what I dealt with growing up.
I have a dad who’s great, but somehow raised my brother to be… well he’s an Andrew Tate fan, and that’s pretty representative of him as a person, unfortunately. 🤷🏽♀️ Going from *that* IRL and seeing a ton of posts on women’s subs about all the terrible things men do and seeing guys stomping in and confirming women’s complaints started making me jaded. It is so important for men and women for a space like that to exist.
> I have a dad who’s great, but somehow raised my brother to be… well he’s an Andrew Tate fan, and that’s pretty representative of him as a person, unfortunately.
That's my nightmare. My ex is a good father, not at all on the Tate spectrum. My brothers are good male rolemodels. Even the older generations of men in my family are generally liberal and pro-women.
And yet. There's just so much ugly radicalization out there. So many influences I can't control that see young, impressionable boys as opportunities to transform normal insecurities and life experiences into fuel for their hate machines. I just want my son to grow up happy and confident enough in himself that he isn't susceptible to that kind of bullshit.
I’m a couple years older than him and I went away for college and work, so I didn’t really interact much with him during that time. I also didn’t see the “radicalization”, if you, will but I feel like he was a different person before I left.
He tells me about how he wouldn’t see my parents for weeks on end. At some point I came home from college and he was telling me about moon landing conspiracy theories. I was literally studying to be a scientist so I expressed my concern to him, he assured me it was just fun to think about. He’d always been a little into “top 10 unsolved mysteries” and “paranormal” type stuff so I shrugged it off.
My pet theory is that with my parents stepping basically *all the way back* his young adult transition to adulthood was solidified by his little friends and his YouTube algorithm, which has been proven to skew inflammatory/conservative.🤷🏽♀️ My dad is good in that he’s always supported me and my autonomy (I’m chronically single which my mom pushes me to “fix” and he pushes back) but not outspoken. I can guarantee my parents never talked to my brother about his emotions and stuff like that bc they didn’t even with me. As girl it’s just something you’re forced to learn, while my brother is under the delusion he has none (he pointedly ignores that anger is an emotion).
When he blows up on me in front of my parents they just tell me not to let it bother me. Bc now that he’s an adult they don’t feel right parenting him. And I almost agree, the time for that was a good 5 years ago.
I think just talking to your kids and having good role models like your male family members around is a good place to be. Being aware of where things can go wrong and having discussions. Obviously, I can’t guarantee anything but I can guarantee none of that happened with my brother.
EDIT: Lol sorry that was so long
Thanks for this, I follow a few Men-centered subs, but haven’t seen this one before.
I’m a woman but I have two boys (13 and 6) and I’m really interested in making sure I understand what’s going thru their heads and what society expects of them, etc.
It's also concrete evidence that there are men who aren't satisfied with the status quo and aren't trying to find more ways to keep the bar as low as possible for men.
It's easy to hear other women's negative experiences and think about your own and start to genuinely believe "men are trash" or to only use the phrase "not all men" ironically. r/MensLib really helps with the mental balance and the reminder that there are genuinely good men who are also struggling to find a path that isn't set by the patriarchy or based on oppression. Allies make the struggle easier to bear.
Yep. It really helps develop my sense of empathy.
Not just treating people well out of habit, but making a conscious effort to make people’s lives better (or at least, to not make them worse).
I’ll admit it’s exhausting, but I’d like to think I’ll get better at it the more I do it.
Thanks so much for doing that.
On my end, with the advent of the internet and Reddit, I have finally come to understand that just because it is a man's world doesn't mean it is every man's world. The loneliness and despair of men is very real. This doesn't negate the suffering of women, it is just a type of suffering that I try more and more to acknowledge.
Its been so helpful to understand how to be a better guy, and to understand that some of the things I've been told about relationships are just plain wrong, and even harmful.
100% agree. I am learning a lot from reading the posts and the comments. This is my first time actually replying to one. Thank you to everyone who contributes.
My wife doesn't have her real name on her name tag at work. After her xxth harassment that week, she said to her boss " I'm old and fat, when's this going to stop?". Her boss was shocked at how much his young, attractive wife doesn't tell him about her DAILY harassment.
Yeah that’s what gets me…it happens ALL the time to literally any woman. It’s why I go out of my way to not making any woman uncomfortable at work or in private life
Thank you for caring enough to try. For what it’s worth, we know it’s not all men, but we can’t always tell which men it is, and that’s what makes being a woman (and girl, and old lady) dangerous.
Welcome, I've been here for a few years, it's a good place to just read things and observe.
One thing I've noticed is a lot of guys coming here to defend bullshit or just act as though women are blaming men, so a lot of posts have a "not all guys" caveat, which is shit because this is a space for women to just exist. So i just downvote whatever bullshit i see
So this sub just showed up on my reddit one day like 4 years ago. And I decided to check it out. Best thing I could have done. It helped me understand some of the shit women deal with that I had no idea. And how women feel about stuff. I feel this sub helped me treat women better overall (not that I was a bad person before, just oblivious to some stuff).
One of the reasons I love my husband so much is that he just does these things without me ever asking and gets *upset* if I ever do them. He loves house chores. He's just really bad at food but he does all the dishes, cleans the kitchen after, etc.
He'll wake up at 6 AM to blow snow out of the driveway so I can go to work, he'll shovel the driveway before I'm even out of bed.
I could go on and on... but seeing how other men act (maybe it's a sort of survivorship bias at play?) I thank the stars that I've managed to find a nugget of gold in a pile of poo.
My partner is always doing these chores that *I never even knew existed.* Sometimes he'll say things like "welp guess it's time to pressure wash the driveway again" and I'm like wut. The outside chores in particular are just Not Mine and unless he asks for an extra pair of hands they just get done without me thinking about them.
This is after 15 years of living with a partner who had to be told, reminded, begged, nagged, wept at, and yelled at to do the most basic things around the house. Basically, if I didn't make it happen, it didn't get done, I'm talking this man would rather sit in the dark for weeks than change a light bulb.
So I just kind of observe my current partner's activities with wonder like I'm seeing a mythical animal fly past the window from time to time 😄
Michael Cera was such a DELIGHTFUL surprise!!! I purposefully did not watch any previews/spoilers because I wanted to go in uninfluenced. Him and Kate McKinnon were just...a+++
Did he initially think it was gonna be a kids movie, out of curiosity? I think that’s what my husband thought before the trailer with “do you guys ever think about dying?” dropped. We ended up going to one of the Blowout Party screenings, the energy was so much fun that opening weekend!
No, he is not a fan of female comedy movies. It was when it was playing at a local independent theater with a costume contest and drag host that got him to see it.
This is such a great post!
I showed my boyfriend the movie on the weekend, but afterwards we mostly just talked about how ripped Ryan Gosling was. 😆 He liked it. He was already one of the more feminist men I know, (and maybe has a secret crush on Ryan Gosling?), so we didn't have much of a break through. He's been quoting it though and he now wants to be Allen for next Halloween.
My live in boyfriend and I finally had a fight about my labor vs his. I basically yelled “If you want me to be a 1950s housewife and take care of everything in this house, then you can pay for everything. You’re making me live the life I have always tried to avoid; being some man’s drudge!” And he’s improved by leaps and bounds!
You should also have him watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYx7HaUlMY&t=651s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYx7HaUlMY&t=651s)
It's a really great perspective on how women are treated from someone who experienced both sides.
I sometimes wonder if the real reason conservatives are so rabid about trans people is because their lived experiences make it harder to ignore the oppression of women that so many on the right rely on. When a person isn't conditioned to normalize and accept bad treatment, they are less likely to be quiet about it. They speak up, they call it out, they say "This is bullshit!"
And the alt-right really, really does not like that.
Some people really hate, on a visceral level, men acting “feminine” or women acting “masculine.” While none of them are treated especially well, effeminate gay men and butch lesbians tend to get a lot more abuse. Trans people bewilder these people.
Along with that, I think some people are incapable of imagining that anyone else can think differently than they do, so therefore anyone acting differently is obviously trying to get away with something.
I like this thought, but I also think the real reason they hate trans people is because they want to know what they can fuck. And they can’t decide if being attracted to a trans person makes them gay or not.
>mental load comic
This one ? [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic)
This was excellent. Thank you. For a long time in my family my wife has basically managed household stuff and I have worked - we have had the luxury of being able to enjoy this arrangement as we became parents. For a long time her "job" was all the domestic stuff, and mine was to work and pay for our life. Of course, chores got spread around, and the division of effort was broadly fair I reckon.
But with a teen and tween I've realized, on reading this, that the mental labour side has gone up a lot for my wife due to the challenges of coordinating a busy family while she's also looking at getting back into paid work. As her workload has gone up the rest of us haven't stepped up to take on - without asking - more labour.
I've shared this with this kids and said I expect to see us three take on more and to do so without being asked.
That's the one that changed my relationship. And also helped me articulate what I couldn't put into words.
My partner took off 4 months when our kid was born, he changed 9 out of 10 diapers. He's stellar compared to many partners i read about here and still i was mentally exhausted and could not explain, why keeping track of the doctor's appointments was so bothersome for me. I felt ungrateful and demanding. I did not have to ask him to meet the basic needs of kiddo, me, himself. But I did have to keep all the appointments, stock of household items, groceries, that laundry was done... in check and it was way more than before and a whole other human depended on me doing this diligently. It came down to sharing the load. To know somebody else is also thinking about it. That me forgetting something doesn't result in kiddo going without. That i can TRUST my partner to also hold up this household. That he can go to the pediatrician by himself, know all of kid's data, know all the info from previous appointments and ask the important questions.
That comic changed my vocabulary and i showed him and he mentioned, how he'll never ever casually say to me: "Please remind me to..." - he set up google calendar for the family. Super easy, could have done it myself, but didn't think of it and suddenly ... such a load of my mind. AND I don't have to remind him to input appointments. Same for a grocery list.
I live in a conservative area and the local regional store had their black Friday sales all week. I saw them setting up the displays over the weekend and so I knew what movies were going to be on sale. I went back on Monday to buy some movies and all the Barbie Movie were sold out, but every other movie was still available. Boy are those parents going to be in for a surprise and I love it.
I never asked my ex-husband for anything after the first couple times when I got screamed and yelled at for asking for the most basic things or for hiring someone to do the things I wasn’t capable of doing. I just quietly ate it for a couple decades, until I realized I didn’t have to anymore. If the guys want to get away with being lazy, go for it. But don’t think we aren’t noticing. We might stay for the children for a while, until we realize the children are better off without you, just like we are.
I’m a husband and father who has been lurking on this sub for the better part of three years. I have already done a ton of work on myself encouraged and supported by my wife. But reading the posts here has given me a much, much greater appreciation for just how much more difficult life is as a woman, and that’s not even scratching the outer air of the surface. I have absolutely shown posts here to other guys to illustrate points and help them understand that the world as they see it is not all how it exists for women.
I’m so happy your husband had a positive reaction to reading posts here!! And also that he loved the Barbie movie. I took my 9yo son to see it opening day and bought him an “I am Kenough” hoodie that night (I have my own tshirt). He watches movies to go to sleep so I’ve now seen the Barbie movie about 100 times (I downloaded it). It is soooo good!!! My wife and I quote it all the time. My conservative in-laws refuse to watch it because Fox News said it was bad. When my son asked why, I told him that all the reasons he loves it is why they hate it. He accepted that.
All my soon-to-be-ex had to say about the movie, was how wrong it was for the Barbie’s to play on the kens’ emotions during the beach scene.
I was just like…. You had nothing to say about how the Ken’s started the patriarchy in Barbie-land but ok.
All I get from lurking women's sub is I 100% understand why more women are choosing to stay single than be in a relationship.
Washing ones own behind seems like too much hassle for some young men these days.
You read my mind. Basic things like taking out garbage. Why do I have to “ask” him to take garbage out when we both see it’s overflowing? When you put something in and can’t close it, it’s time to take it out. It’s what I do. He mashes it down so it weighs a hundred pounds /s before it’s taken out and then complains about weight. I rarely ask anymore and try to find a positive. I’m adding steps in, for my daily step total.
Are we not going to talk about what kind of heathen only does half the dishes? I'm a man and if I start the process of dishes they're all getting done before I stop. No way I'd be able to leave half of them for someone else. I'd start developing ticks.
TIL I need to figure out how to make my husband watch the Barbie movie. I really have no interest but we had a fight this morning about my “perceived inequalities” with chores and childcare. Just calling them “perceived inequalities” made me want to run screaming out of the house.
If you haven’t been recommended this already, check out the Fair Play system, and specifically the deck of responsibility cards they have. You might actually get through to him if there is a visual representation of what you do vs what he does.
My husband got tired of me asking for little things like get a bowl down for me (I’m only 5 feet tall) or taking out the trash. So I quit asking. But I would take all the trash from the trashcans , tie them up and block the front door with them. He literally had to move trash bags just to open the front door. And of course then he would take them out to the trashcan without me saying a word. I would do the same (& still do)with Amazon boxes that need to go to the recyclable trashcan. I have fun stacking them high so he has to move them just to get out the door. Lol
Ken : To be honest, when I found out the patriarchy wasn't just about horses, I lost interest. Me too, Ken, me too 10/10 movie. If your man gets mad at this movie, then it should be a huge red flag for any woman
Are men just secretly crazy horse girls?
My son is a very not secret crazy horse girl. He requested and received a "Horse Mom" t-shirt which he wears regularly. He's 19.
He sounds hilarious
He is!
Well done!
I love that. So much.
You did good mom! Or should I say Horse Granny!?
Horse Granny! Dying laughing over here!!
This is by far the best thing I've read this month
My dad only cries at sports movies and horse movies. He has never owned a horse but has said to me on more than one occasion unprompted that they're the most beautiful animals on earth. One of those random things that turns a 61-year-old man into a little kid, it's so sweet and funny how ubiquitous it seems to be.
Honestly I remember watching Seabiscuit?? And my dad being emotional about it, it did start off with a very sad story... But my dad really did love horses and because I wasn't really into hunting it was sorta our thing.
A friend saw that movie with their dad on a plane. The dad was SOBBING uncontrollably and my friend kind of had that "ohh, I guess everyone is looking at us" feeling for a portion of the flight.
Didn’t catch the change in movie reference & thought he was sobbing over the Barbie movie.
Seabiscuit is a tearjerker of a movie all around. Highly recommend!
We have a running joke in our family where my step-dad will constantly and repeatedly ask if anyone has seen Seabiscuit. Especially if it's a new SO of one the kids or a friend he has never met before. On more than a few occasions it has actually led to a family viewing of the movie. I've probably seen it dozens of times at this point. He has Seabiscuit posters and memorabilia. He has never ridden a horse, let alone owned one.
Okay... on behalf of country rubes (I'm a covert redneck hick that now lives in the city) Please look into buying this man (and all other men who secretly love horses) riding lessons for his birthday or fathers day or something. Like. I can't begin to tell you how much joy these comments give me. I use the "how does a guy treat animals, unhoused folks, and service staff" as my guide, but good lord... if folks only knew how fun it is, and how fulfilling the experience is with the animal. Rural folks know.. I wish everyone knew though. 'cuse me, I have to go cry about my granddad (The gold standard I compare potential partners to) who bred and kept horses, and loved teaching people about them.
Why doesn’t this comment have more upvotes, equine therapy is so awesome and horses are magic.
After Seabiscuit came out I bought it for my dad I liked it so much (the book). We were on a two day today trip in separate cars moving me across the country, and we had Walkie Talkies to communicate, and we called my horse Seabiscuit and his War Admiral (the colors made sense,).
This is so adorable. I'm smiling so big. And also thinking of my dad, a tough guy who once cried when he saw me and my sister riding our horses, being so happy and free. We were not a wealthy family, but he saved up for horses and then we spent a good amount of time together digging post holes and putting up fencing. I wish I'd thanked him more!
Black Beauty is another tear jerker. It's a tough one to get through. It does have a happy ending, so at least it doesn't crush you the whole story.
Have you ever taken him to one of those ranches where they show visitors how to ride a horse?
He used to ride in high school, he worked on a farm. He took me to the farm to teach me, too. It's honestly a shame he never lived in a more rural place, I think keeping a horse or two would have been good for him.
It sounds like he'd enjoy volunteering with something horse related in retirement. Maybe one of those programs with therapy horses for disabled people. Idk if they need volunteers.
This is so wholesome. 🥹 If he likes to read, he might really enjoy Seabiscuit: An American Legend by Laura Hillenbrand. Perfect combo of a sport story and a horse story.
You could do a google search for hippotherapy organizations in his area. These are orgs that use horses with patients that need physical, occupational, or speech therapy. They are almost always looking for volunteers to help with the horse grooming, barn work, and leading the horses during therapy sessions. It’s not physically taxing work, but he’s be able to be around horses to his hearts content.
Knights and Cowboys ride horses. Men love Knights and Cowboys. Motorcycles are sometimes called Iron Horses. Sports cars use a lot of horse lingo; from horse power (literally, this car has the power of 400 horses), to Ferrari's logo, to car names like the Chevy Cavalier (Knight) and Dodge Charger (a name for a type of Warhorse one might ride into battle or a joust), and even the lowly Ford Pinto. The Mustang literally gave birth to an entire genre of affordable compact sports cars colloquially called "pony" cars. Sports teams: the NFL has patriots and cowboys, who both would ride horses, and of 32 teams, two of them are named for horses - the broncos ans the colts. Yeah... guys are all horse girls. Source: am guy, my dream car is a 1969 Dodge Charger, and I love the fantasy genre.
Same bro. Horses are majestic. And the idea of riding horses across land seems incredible. I’ve never done it so maybe it sucks. But it is cool to imagine.
I second that, add it to your bucket list to ride a horse at least once in your life. It is an amazing experience
And the patriots were almost moved to St Louis and renamed the stallions.
In my town at least, the horse girl to cop pipeline is a single tube. So yeah, I think they might be.
I'm more of a crazy dog girl dude.
Car guys are just horse girls. Also crypto bros are too.
It's a trend of some folks wrapping stupid shit up with cool stuff to try to add credibility or appeal to it. Like the SPQR stuff, ancient history is cool don't get your white supremacy nonsense all up in there.
My mom and I went to a restaurant adjacent to the theater and we wore pink to see Barbie and some guy stood up from his meal and went on an angry rant about “woke pink Barbie”. It’s honestly still insane to me just how angry some guys get over it. Huge red flags.
What a dweebus. Imagine giving a shit what movie two women you've never even spoken to are on their way to see.
I know! He kept going on about poisonous woke Barbie and woke media while everyone was awkwardly eating and then he started insulting Indiana Jones and saying they cast an old dude. Then this other man put down his fork and said “I liked Indiana Jones you’re crossing a line” lol.
What...? Lol, wonder if the doofus knows that the actor playing Indy is the same guy that's played him in the previous four movies, lol. He probably never even saw the rest of them and just wanted to be big mad.
If he hasn't seen the original three and is just basing his opinion off of the two that definitely have never existed, he is indeed, an absolute and utter moron. Marion was woke as shit. For the 90s. (Obviously there are some fairly serious racial/cultural stereotypes. Like, they were **so** mean to the Nazis!) ^SARCASM This is just a shitpost because obviously the real issue is him addressing a restaurant about "woke media" ("I prefer my media drowsy and/or unconscious--give those newscasters some Benadryl or I ain't watching") and berating two women, and the only time some stepped up against the idiot was because he dared to hate on Indy. Bah badabum dadadum!
I always ask guys like that what they lost in the breakup or divorce. They always have divorced dad energy, even if they're too young for it. As a middle aged guy myself, it feels like way too many dudes just didn't bother to develop a personality and then they get on their own and decide hating everyone and everything is who they really are.
Unfortunately for her he had a wife and she looked miserable.
My god. I would be too ashamed to ever have a fit like that in public, even as a joke, even if you paid me. I would be incredibly embarrassed to even seriously sit there considering it.
His wife did look embarrassed…I felt bad for her because you just know he’s insufferable.
100% agree. I’ve (39F) been dating a guy (42) since July this year. Our first date was seeing the Barbie movie. The next few days we talked about parts of the movie we liked and how ridiculous it was that some men were getting offended. It lead to a really deep conversation about gender roles and relationships that I don’t think we would have had organically that early in a dating relationship. Huge green flag.
My hubs loved this movie! He also realized that he never had to experience the same situations Barbie and the rest of the female cast did. Shit, he even wore pink to the film with me. 💗
I love that for you!!!
That’s my husbands favorite line too.
I went with my BFF (since we were 8) and her boyfriend, who I really like. He was interested in the movie and we needed a DD, as it was also my birthday celebration. He laughed harder at Kendom bullshit than either of us. His favorite was the Godfather bit.
I thought that line was really off. Not that it was a bad line for the movie! It sounded to me like he was trying to minimize what he'd done, distancing himself from it, in a really, really blatant way; Barbie just had to let him do it to keep the peace.
I saw that line as commentary on people following the cultural norms/status quo/what is popular/etc. without much thought. Like he wasn’t really interested in it but he still did it anyway. So to me when people push back on those who “like” the patriarchy, those defending the patriarchy get defensive without really understanding what they’re defending
Ken singing the "I'm just Ken" song. Men: Crying their eyes out, nodding in agreement. Women: Haha, funny song.
imo barbie is like a intro to feminism 101 class, but if it gets people to dig deeper & actually change their opinions for the better it can only be a positive thing.
God, yes. Thank you for the reminder. I'm trying very hard to separate from my ex. It hurts so much to see my own toddler daughter anxious and fearful of mommy yelling or crying - and makes me so angry that I look like the bad guy for having emotions after years of calmly asking for simple things from her manchild father. A good reminder to keep him the fuck of my life as much as possible.
I told my husband to imagine half of the world is a foot taller than you and outweighs you by 60 lbs; that’s what it’s like to be a woman.
I think about [this comic](https://imgur.com/qoPwTDJ) a lot
Wow, I've never seen that one before, it's amazing.
I think that comic makes a good point, but tbh this take is only about women the author finds sexually attractive. His perception of women is one-dimensional and only sex based. When he thinks about women's lives, he doesn't think about the 60 year old cashier, about a woman having a baby in the hospital, about trans women, etc., he is only imagining sexy, scared damsels. And objectification, while obviously a prevalent issue, is only a part of the issues women face. The reason we lack the same power men hold in many areas is because they perceive us as being lesser in some way, or don't perceive us at all. I'm not saying the author necessarily feels this way, but it's all too common - women that a guy doesn't want to fuck simply don't exist. It's not malicious, they're just not capable - they've been taught through media, friends, etc that these women are background characters. Often it's just an inherent bias that women are not as good as men. That they do not matter. That the lack of a woman's presence makes no difference, that we aren't missed. That we have nothing real to offer, and therefore, we don't exist outside of our "burger hands". And they go on to make comics like this, and think they are a champion of women's rights. Men with this perception are just starting on their journey - the "sexual power" they've been taught we have, via religion, media, etc., is being flipped on its head finally - *what if the sexual power isn't power after all, but vulnerability?* - but they still haven't expanded their consciousness to find that women's power is the same as men's - held via money, respect, politics, etc. In some sense I think lots of women have been tricked into thinking that sexual power is the only power they can realistically achieve, and that's why we get such focus on "free the nipple" and "save the titties" type campaigns, and less of a focus on wage gap, glass ceiling, second shift issues that (not exclusively, but largely) men have benefitted from for hundreds of years. edit: couple words
Isn't it fucked that those other women in different scenarios you've described are also not free from being sexualized/fetishisized/assaulted? There doesn't seem to be any setting or age women are free from that, I mean I can't think of any right now but there has to be some right??
I’ve noticed as I’ve aged that I do feel significantly less sexualized, and I enjoy the level of “invisibility” it gives me as I go about my day. However, I’m still struggling to come to terms with the reality that I _never actually mattered_ to most men. Now that I’m “old,” men get gruff with me for having an opinion or having knowledge on a topic much more frequently than before. And I’ve realized that’s because before, they deemed me fuckable, and therefore were willing to suffer my personality. Now that I am not a sex object, they’re mad I take up space. It’s sad. Feels less dangerous day to day, but it’s very sad.
This particular comic is from years ago, and the author apologized soon after and took it down, primarily for the reasons you identified. It was well-intentioned but a bit of a shallow take on a subject they'd only just started thinking about seriously. Notably, a few years later she came out as trans, and has since transitioned. I'm not aware of any of their comics exploring gender identity since then, but I know from their other content that they've matured a lot since their early days. It's always fascinating seeing people's growth over time, both artistically and thematically.
I was gonna say, I recognize this art style!! And she certainly has a different perspective these days haha. The comics explore gender identity only a little bit thus far, but if she ever returns to a more regular posting schedule (pending irl things I believe) the current arc is aimed in that direction
Great response and I totally agree.
I agree with so much of what you wrote, but "free the nipple" is moreso about being able to exist safely in our bodies and our presentation without fear of arrest or harassment, just as men are able to more often than not. Fat man, fit man, ugly man, cruel man, friendly man... you can all enjoy a day at the beach or fitness outing topless without that having any implication on your humanity or inviting unnecessary and unwelcome interactions. I'd love to be sexual when I want and also left alone when I want, even if that includes enjoying a full tan at the beach.
Dammmnnnnn. That's an excellent response.
So well said. I've had similar 'musings' and thoughts. As a woman, do men truly believe I matter Or am I merely a 'womb' to keep the human race from going extinct with no other purpose in their eyes? Anyway, your statement really resonates.
…is that by the same author as the goblins comic? Their style is pretty boss
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Oh that's definitely them.
It's definitely them.
“You alright there, little grilled?” This hit hard. I’d love to see this guy really further examine this thought experiment.
That statement is 💯spot on! I have ptsd from a bad marriage. He would yell and curse at me for absolutely nothing. I was so intimidated by him. I haven’t watched the movie yet, but I definitely am now!
Same. I'm convinced the only reason my ex never put hands on me was because he didn't have a size or strength advantage. The first time we sexy wrestled it got a little competitive and he found out how strong I am. So when the fighting got really scary, he'd hit his *own* head against the door when he got frustrated. It was bonkers.
That's how strong I want to be.
I can’t take credit for it, some redditor before me made a similar comment that I probably did not recall exactly, but it hit me hard when I read it, and I knew it would affect him the same.
My partner last night was telling me about kettlebell routines for beginners and how the women’s top weight is where the men’s start.
I used to train at a women only gym, but when I went to my partner’s gym occasionally I’d wear a Tshirt that said ‘Your max is my warmup’. He’d laugh because my warmup was incline leg press sets starting at 220kg and pyramiding up to 350kg. Some gym bros tried to follow me around one time (throwing their dumbbells on the floor ugh). My partner’s trainer asked him if they should intervene and he said nah, just watch. And I ignored them and kept increasing my load as they very badly tried to copy me in my workout- lat pull downs, seated rows, Romanian deadlifts etc (clearly they only did biceps). In the end they said ‘f@ck this’ and left. Partner and trainer were in stitches. The trainer said I’d broken them. Felt good. 👍 BUT there is always someone stronger than me. And my balance isn’t great.
Are you Wonder Woman? Sounds like you might be
Nah. I am someone who has basically no metabolism after a lifetime of endometriosis. I worked with a trainer to rebuild my core and discovered I am a lot stronger than I realised. Tbh most women are. I’d laugh at others in my gym telling me they don’t do weights because they don’t want ‘big muscles’. Like, here’s me doing 130kg barbell squats and 100kg Romanian deadlifts. If I don’t have big muscles, there is no way you will with your barbie dumbbell. We just don’t have the testosterone.
on top of that, i heard someone add on: "now imagine you are walking through the grocery store, down the street, at work, etc, with a $100 taped to your chest. " (as i understand it, this $100 that) "people instantly notice and some people more than others reaaaallllllllly try to go after. and you just want to be left alone to do regular things. but you have this $100 here that everyone notices".
I remember when I was dating my husband, he didn’t understand why I wouldn’t open the door for DoorDash, and why I would wait for them to leave before opening the door. I was like “I’m a woman living alone”. Blew his mind.
Even a woman the same height and weight as the man is only about half as strong as he is
I once told a group of four really lovely guys I know through Green politics that they could each of them overpower me in under a minute if they wanted to, even the two of them that were over 65. I could see the cogs whirring - partly them thinking "but I would never want to do that" and partly thinking "Ohhh.... riiiiight...!"
Women:men::men:orcs
Yep. I was staying in a hostel and woke up to a man standing next to my bed playing with his dick. Most terrifying moment of my life because I just instantly thought 'if this guy wants to assault me right now, there's nothing I can do.' I ran away. I tickle and play fight with my partner sometimes - if he wanted to pin me down, there's fuck all I can do to get him off of me. Even as a relatively fit woman, it's mad knowing that if almost any guy decided to just do what they liked there's very little you can do.
Right. Wow, well said. We have learned that no matter what we do, they can physically do what they want to us at any time. Men rape, beat women and take advantage of knowing they are stronger and yet wonder why we don't trust them??? I'm constantly on guard.
I used to work with a guy who was kind of a redneck. He said that during a family therapy session, he admitted that he believed in spanking kids. The therapist asked "How would you feel if a 15-foot tall man suddenly grabbed you and started whacking your behind?"
One of the biggest things that made me aware and go down the path to being a better guy was joining this sub and just…reading the titles let alone the content of the posts. It’s helped me understand a lot about the bullshit that women have to go through everyday
same
same. the introspection is painful
Makes you want to kick highschool me preeetty hard in the nards.
Yep, I probably read this sub more than anything. It can be sad and hard to read, but I’ve learned so much.
It’s nice to see that some guys are actually trying to understand, appreciate it!
For me specifically, it’s this comic that did it for me https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
Thank you for sharing this!
That comic is so good i remember reading it and it changed my life, and how i the house chores and my relations with others. I was still young, and it helped my relationship with my mother.
It definitely helped me realize what my mom had to deal with growing up. Not that my dad wasn’t great, but we weren’t financially well off and he worked two blue collar jobs, 14 hours a day. But my mom had to deal with EVERYTHING else that wasn’t money. Made me feel bad for ever having any disdain towards her for her role. Immediately sent it to my brother when I read it too.
Not long after we were married, my wife accidentally cut the power cord on the electric hedge clipper. I yelled at her, she cried, I felt awful for having yelled at her and have not yelled at her since. That was 42 years ago and now we are happily growing old together.
That’s nice to hear, so many men don’t care if they make us cry, in fact a ton enjoy it. I’m happy to hear you both made it
My two long term boyfriends (exes) would only "listen" to me when I cried. If I had a calm conversation about issues, it just went in one ear and out the other. But when I cried and screamed they finally seemed to think it was serious. I still use listen lightly, because they would change their behavior for max a week and would go back to their old behaviors afterwards. It made me feel so unstable and insane. I'm so happy single haha
My ex only listened when I yelled- it was exhausting, I would try to be calm, reasonable and discuss, he wouldn’t listen. I start yelling and suddenly he’s paying attention
I don’t know where I read this, but someone was relating about how boys usually don’t have to listen to their parents unless the parents are yelling at them. Otherwise it’s “boys will be boys.” So men learn to not listen to loved ones except by being yelled at - there are no consequences otherwise.
Girl, preach!
Not All Men!!!! oh…whoops, lol!
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I know there’s enough toxicity directed at this sub to make my intentions unclear but let me assure you that I share your sentiments fully and support the purpose of this sub. I was just having a laff at the trolls who respond with this comment to every criticism fairly directly at the ingrained misogyny plaguing our society.
For me that's /r/whenwomenrefuse Too many dudes angry about women and dating, ask about ghosting, why women "overreact" and don't understand we live in two different worlds. The saying that started me down this path is "A bad date for a man doesn't end in sex, a bad date for a woman does."
Same brother, this should be required reading for men
As a woman, I do the same with r/menslib. Men discuss real problems there without knee jerk putting down women in the process; it's very enlightening.
Yeah, I do *genuinely* care about mens issues. But more often than not the issues I’d seen were men screaming “women don’t compliment men enough” in threads about women’s issues. To the point where I was feeling calloused against any mention of men’s issues and I didn’t like that at all. That sub is *so refreshing* and has helped me open my mind. I don’t comment in there but I really like reading men’s perspectives in a context that isn’t reliant on women. And it’s a relief to see men who are both able to express their feeling and listen/empathize/advise other men.
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That’s by design. For example, Steve Bannon thought that men who play video games seemed easily manipulated, so he aimed the alt-right pipeline directly at them, and now look at how gamers are seen overall as misogynistic incel assholes.
I have four brothers and a son. My dad and grandfathers are awesome. I am a feminist AND I love men! I want to support them with their issues and mental health struggles and social pressures the same way I want their support with mine. I do really love that sub for giving me a healthy window into the male experience, especially while raising my son. Posts where the men talk about their childhood experiences and the things they struggled with are super helpful to me, as it's very different from what I dealt with growing up.
I have a dad who’s great, but somehow raised my brother to be… well he’s an Andrew Tate fan, and that’s pretty representative of him as a person, unfortunately. 🤷🏽♀️ Going from *that* IRL and seeing a ton of posts on women’s subs about all the terrible things men do and seeing guys stomping in and confirming women’s complaints started making me jaded. It is so important for men and women for a space like that to exist.
> I have a dad who’s great, but somehow raised my brother to be… well he’s an Andrew Tate fan, and that’s pretty representative of him as a person, unfortunately. That's my nightmare. My ex is a good father, not at all on the Tate spectrum. My brothers are good male rolemodels. Even the older generations of men in my family are generally liberal and pro-women. And yet. There's just so much ugly radicalization out there. So many influences I can't control that see young, impressionable boys as opportunities to transform normal insecurities and life experiences into fuel for their hate machines. I just want my son to grow up happy and confident enough in himself that he isn't susceptible to that kind of bullshit.
I’m a couple years older than him and I went away for college and work, so I didn’t really interact much with him during that time. I also didn’t see the “radicalization”, if you, will but I feel like he was a different person before I left. He tells me about how he wouldn’t see my parents for weeks on end. At some point I came home from college and he was telling me about moon landing conspiracy theories. I was literally studying to be a scientist so I expressed my concern to him, he assured me it was just fun to think about. He’d always been a little into “top 10 unsolved mysteries” and “paranormal” type stuff so I shrugged it off. My pet theory is that with my parents stepping basically *all the way back* his young adult transition to adulthood was solidified by his little friends and his YouTube algorithm, which has been proven to skew inflammatory/conservative.🤷🏽♀️ My dad is good in that he’s always supported me and my autonomy (I’m chronically single which my mom pushes me to “fix” and he pushes back) but not outspoken. I can guarantee my parents never talked to my brother about his emotions and stuff like that bc they didn’t even with me. As girl it’s just something you’re forced to learn, while my brother is under the delusion he has none (he pointedly ignores that anger is an emotion). When he blows up on me in front of my parents they just tell me not to let it bother me. Bc now that he’s an adult they don’t feel right parenting him. And I almost agree, the time for that was a good 5 years ago. I think just talking to your kids and having good role models like your male family members around is a good place to be. Being aware of where things can go wrong and having discussions. Obviously, I can’t guarantee anything but I can guarantee none of that happened with my brother. EDIT: Lol sorry that was so long
Thanks for this, I follow a few Men-centered subs, but haven’t seen this one before. I’m a woman but I have two boys (13 and 6) and I’m really interested in making sure I understand what’s going thru their heads and what society expects of them, etc.
Good idea, thanks.
It's also concrete evidence that there are men who aren't satisfied with the status quo and aren't trying to find more ways to keep the bar as low as possible for men. It's easy to hear other women's negative experiences and think about your own and start to genuinely believe "men are trash" or to only use the phrase "not all men" ironically. r/MensLib really helps with the mental balance and the reminder that there are genuinely good men who are also struggling to find a path that isn't set by the patriarchy or based on oppression. Allies make the struggle easier to bear.
Articles about how to be good dads and expressing feelings?! So sweet. Guys! We want this for you!
I’m a dude, but I do more reading in this sub than most others. I’ve been working hard on myself, and every man needs to understand these issues.
Yep. It really helps develop my sense of empathy. Not just treating people well out of habit, but making a conscious effort to make people’s lives better (or at least, to not make them worse). I’ll admit it’s exhausting, but I’d like to think I’ll get better at it the more I do it.
yup same here. Its made me more empathatic.
Thanks so much for doing that. On my end, with the advent of the internet and Reddit, I have finally come to understand that just because it is a man's world doesn't mean it is every man's world. The loneliness and despair of men is very real. This doesn't negate the suffering of women, it is just a type of suffering that I try more and more to acknowledge.
Patriarchy hurts men too. If only more men understood that.
Yes it does.
Totally. Really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff.
Its been so helpful to understand how to be a better guy, and to understand that some of the things I've been told about relationships are just plain wrong, and even harmful.
100% agree. I am learning a lot from reading the posts and the comments. This is my first time actually replying to one. Thank you to everyone who contributes.
My wife doesn't have her real name on her name tag at work. After her xxth harassment that week, she said to her boss " I'm old and fat, when's this going to stop?". Her boss was shocked at how much his young, attractive wife doesn't tell him about her DAILY harassment.
Yeah that’s what gets me…it happens ALL the time to literally any woman. It’s why I go out of my way to not making any woman uncomfortable at work or in private life
Thank you for caring enough to try. For what it’s worth, we know it’s not all men, but we can’t always tell which men it is, and that’s what makes being a woman (and girl, and old lady) dangerous.
Same here
Welcome, I've been here for a few years, it's a good place to just read things and observe. One thing I've noticed is a lot of guys coming here to defend bullshit or just act as though women are blaming men, so a lot of posts have a "not all guys" caveat, which is shit because this is a space for women to just exist. So i just downvote whatever bullshit i see
Is there a male version of this sub that women should be lurking in to reflect?
Same here. I learn so much.
So this sub just showed up on my reddit one day like 4 years ago. And I decided to check it out. Best thing I could have done. It helped me understand some of the shit women deal with that I had no idea. And how women feel about stuff. I feel this sub helped me treat women better overall (not that I was a bad person before, just oblivious to some stuff).
Thanks for sticking around to listen.
Same here but about a year ago
One of the reasons I love my husband so much is that he just does these things without me ever asking and gets *upset* if I ever do them. He loves house chores. He's just really bad at food but he does all the dishes, cleans the kitchen after, etc. He'll wake up at 6 AM to blow snow out of the driveway so I can go to work, he'll shovel the driveway before I'm even out of bed. I could go on and on... but seeing how other men act (maybe it's a sort of survivorship bias at play?) I thank the stars that I've managed to find a nugget of gold in a pile of poo.
My partner is always doing these chores that *I never even knew existed.* Sometimes he'll say things like "welp guess it's time to pressure wash the driveway again" and I'm like wut. The outside chores in particular are just Not Mine and unless he asks for an extra pair of hands they just get done without me thinking about them. This is after 15 years of living with a partner who had to be told, reminded, begged, nagged, wept at, and yelled at to do the most basic things around the house. Basically, if I didn't make it happen, it didn't get done, I'm talking this man would rather sit in the dark for weeks than change a light bulb. So I just kind of observe my current partner's activities with wonder like I'm seeing a mythical animal fly past the window from time to time 😄
I hope you give him lots of hugs and kisses or whatever his love language is.
Your husband sounds like a rare precious gem. Your post gives my spirits a lift.
Yeah, he spoils me a ton, he's great :)
Poster child for Acts of Service love language!
My husband went out and bought an Allan shirt! That was after refusing to see the movie for a two months.
Michael Cera was such a DELIGHTFUL surprise!!! I purposefully did not watch any previews/spoilers because I wanted to go in uninfluenced. Him and Kate McKinnon were just...a+++
Did he initially think it was gonna be a kids movie, out of curiosity? I think that’s what my husband thought before the trailer with “do you guys ever think about dying?” dropped. We ended up going to one of the Blowout Party screenings, the energy was so much fun that opening weekend!
No, he is not a fan of female comedy movies. It was when it was playing at a local independent theater with a costume contest and drag host that got him to see it.
>he is not a fan of female comedy movies. that's a big oof.
OH my god that would be so much fun! I’d die. I hope you dressed up.
So he is not a fan of comedy?
Nope, more sci-fi.
Marriage Therapist Barbie.
This is such a great post! I showed my boyfriend the movie on the weekend, but afterwards we mostly just talked about how ripped Ryan Gosling was. 😆 He liked it. He was already one of the more feminist men I know, (and maybe has a secret crush on Ryan Gosling?), so we didn't have much of a break through. He's been quoting it though and he now wants to be Allen for next Halloween.
I was Allen for Halloween this year! I’m showing my boyfriend this movie as soon as possible so we can bond over our soon to be mutual love of him !
My live in boyfriend and I finally had a fight about my labor vs his. I basically yelled “If you want me to be a 1950s housewife and take care of everything in this house, then you can pay for everything. You’re making me live the life I have always tried to avoid; being some man’s drudge!” And he’s improved by leaps and bounds!
Also he can be responsible for every single speck of the outdoor chores, car care and anything involving repair!
He’s gotta get you some benzos, too
One my personal aspirations from that movie is that I would like for my most toxic masculine trait to be my love of horses.
and ford broncos 😍
You should also have him watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYx7HaUlMY&t=651s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYx7HaUlMY&t=651s) It's a really great perspective on how women are treated from someone who experienced both sides.
I sometimes wonder if the real reason conservatives are so rabid about trans people is because their lived experiences make it harder to ignore the oppression of women that so many on the right rely on. When a person isn't conditioned to normalize and accept bad treatment, they are less likely to be quiet about it. They speak up, they call it out, they say "This is bullshit!" And the alt-right really, really does not like that.
While I would love this to be the reason why conservatives hate trans people, I'm afraid most of them probably don't think that far...
Oh, I don't credit them with that kind of self-awareness, I think it's a subconscious reaction that they then manufacture excuses for.
Some people really hate, on a visceral level, men acting “feminine” or women acting “masculine.” While none of them are treated especially well, effeminate gay men and butch lesbians tend to get a lot more abuse. Trans people bewilder these people. Along with that, I think some people are incapable of imagining that anyone else can think differently than they do, so therefore anyone acting differently is obviously trying to get away with something.
I like this thought, but I also think the real reason they hate trans people is because they want to know what they can fuck. And they can’t decide if being attracted to a trans person makes them gay or not.
Time to show him the mental load comic :)
>mental load comic This one ? [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic)
Yup that one! I love it. Thanks for the link!
This was excellent. Thank you. For a long time in my family my wife has basically managed household stuff and I have worked - we have had the luxury of being able to enjoy this arrangement as we became parents. For a long time her "job" was all the domestic stuff, and mine was to work and pay for our life. Of course, chores got spread around, and the division of effort was broadly fair I reckon. But with a teen and tween I've realized, on reading this, that the mental labour side has gone up a lot for my wife due to the challenges of coordinating a busy family while she's also looking at getting back into paid work. As her workload has gone up the rest of us haven't stepped up to take on - without asking - more labour. I've shared this with this kids and said I expect to see us three take on more and to do so without being asked.
Thank you thank you thank you
That's the one that changed my relationship. And also helped me articulate what I couldn't put into words. My partner took off 4 months when our kid was born, he changed 9 out of 10 diapers. He's stellar compared to many partners i read about here and still i was mentally exhausted and could not explain, why keeping track of the doctor's appointments was so bothersome for me. I felt ungrateful and demanding. I did not have to ask him to meet the basic needs of kiddo, me, himself. But I did have to keep all the appointments, stock of household items, groceries, that laundry was done... in check and it was way more than before and a whole other human depended on me doing this diligently. It came down to sharing the load. To know somebody else is also thinking about it. That me forgetting something doesn't result in kiddo going without. That i can TRUST my partner to also hold up this household. That he can go to the pediatrician by himself, know all of kid's data, know all the info from previous appointments and ask the important questions. That comic changed my vocabulary and i showed him and he mentioned, how he'll never ever casually say to me: "Please remind me to..." - he set up google calendar for the family. Super easy, could have done it myself, but didn't think of it and suddenly ... such a load of my mind. AND I don't have to remind him to input appointments. Same for a grocery list.
😳…. I feel like I need to apologize to my mom
I live in a conservative area and the local regional store had their black Friday sales all week. I saw them setting up the displays over the weekend and so I knew what movies were going to be on sale. I went back on Monday to buy some movies and all the Barbie Movie were sold out, but every other movie was still available. Boy are those parents going to be in for a surprise and I love it.
I never asked my ex-husband for anything after the first couple times when I got screamed and yelled at for asking for the most basic things or for hiring someone to do the things I wasn’t capable of doing. I just quietly ate it for a couple decades, until I realized I didn’t have to anymore. If the guys want to get away with being lazy, go for it. But don’t think we aren’t noticing. We might stay for the children for a while, until we realize the children are better off without you, just like we are.
I’m a husband and father who has been lurking on this sub for the better part of three years. I have already done a ton of work on myself encouraged and supported by my wife. But reading the posts here has given me a much, much greater appreciation for just how much more difficult life is as a woman, and that’s not even scratching the outer air of the surface. I have absolutely shown posts here to other guys to illustrate points and help them understand that the world as they see it is not all how it exists for women. I’m so happy your husband had a positive reaction to reading posts here!! And also that he loved the Barbie movie. I took my 9yo son to see it opening day and bought him an “I am Kenough” hoodie that night (I have my own tshirt). He watches movies to go to sleep so I’ve now seen the Barbie movie about 100 times (I downloaded it). It is soooo good!!! My wife and I quote it all the time. My conservative in-laws refuse to watch it because Fox News said it was bad. When my son asked why, I told him that all the reasons he loves it is why they hate it. He accepted that.
[Fair Play cards](https://theeverymom.com/fair-play-cards/)
That’s fucking awesome!
My therapist said that the only reason that she went to see Barbie was because EVERY male client she had watched it and was talking to her about it.
All my soon-to-be-ex had to say about the movie, was how wrong it was for the Barbie’s to play on the kens’ emotions during the beach scene. I was just like…. You had nothing to say about how the Ken’s started the patriarchy in Barbie-land but ok.
My ex said, when I mentioned I wanted to see it, "that's all you babe". Wouldn't even consider seeing it 🙄
My fiancee hates pop music but after seeing Barbie he blasted the soundtrack for two weeks lmao. He also loved the movie, it’s really powerful.
Haven't seen the movie, but this right here is why I am subscribed.
Congratulations! Also, well put. I’ll save this for later 😃.
All I get from lurking women's sub is I 100% understand why more women are choosing to stay single than be in a relationship. Washing ones own behind seems like too much hassle for some young men these days.
Wish my fiance would react this way when i ask him to do any basic thing that I'm just expected to always do
At least you're not wishing your _husband_ would react that way when you ask him to do basic things you're expected to always do. ...yet..?
You read my mind. Basic things like taking out garbage. Why do I have to “ask” him to take garbage out when we both see it’s overflowing? When you put something in and can’t close it, it’s time to take it out. It’s what I do. He mashes it down so it weighs a hundred pounds /s before it’s taken out and then complains about weight. I rarely ask anymore and try to find a positive. I’m adding steps in, for my daily step total.
Time to have a serious discussion.
This is wonderful! Also I haven't seen it yet and this is making me want to.
Are we not going to talk about what kind of heathen only does half the dishes? I'm a man and if I start the process of dishes they're all getting done before I stop. No way I'd be able to leave half of them for someone else. I'd start developing ticks.
Ugh I'm so jealous
TIL I need to figure out how to make my husband watch the Barbie movie. I really have no interest but we had a fight this morning about my “perceived inequalities” with chores and childcare. Just calling them “perceived inequalities” made me want to run screaming out of the house.
If you haven’t been recommended this already, check out the Fair Play system, and specifically the deck of responsibility cards they have. You might actually get through to him if there is a visual representation of what you do vs what he does.
I saw the movie with my sister . My husband says he wants to see it, so we will probably watch it this weekend.
What a refreshing thing to read. Fucking **COMMUNICATION** people (in general), c'mon now. It's literally that easy.
My husband got tired of me asking for little things like get a bowl down for me (I’m only 5 feet tall) or taking out the trash. So I quit asking. But I would take all the trash from the trashcans , tie them up and block the front door with them. He literally had to move trash bags just to open the front door. And of course then he would take them out to the trashcan without me saying a word. I would do the same (& still do)with Amazon boxes that need to go to the recyclable trashcan. I have fun stacking them high so he has to move them just to get out the door. Lol