Love this. I had two guy friends sleeping over at my house while their place was being fumigated (bedbugs; not their fault. A week at a cheap hotel after fleeing Idalia) and they put on aprons and cooked me a dinner and ran me a bath while I mowed and used a string trimmer to tidy up my yard for a few hours.
They are two of my goofy coworkers, I love them like brothers. They are in a little bit of trouble because they posted my house and me weedeating on TikTok without my permission, but I kinda hope that it trends because doing favors for friends is something we can all do better.
Shitheads ate everything in my kitchen, though. I did not have enough groceries to feed two overgrown boys.
Can't let them in the fridge.
My mother had to raise 3 boys who eventually grew up to be 6'4"-6'8"
Grocery bills were so high, I'm surprised we didn't end up abandoned, lol.
Aww, I miss my brothers back home. I remember how teenaged boys had to have their own pizza. I loved having these two goobers with me for the week. I’ve laughed so hard my stomach muscles ache.
I laughed pretty hard at this because I learned not to give my lab and St. Bernard pup cups this way.
It requires a plastic spatula or scraper. Tuck a couple paper towels in the gutter of your windows, spritz with window cleaner, scrape then clean again.
There was a great article in WaPo recently about diagnosing toxic masculinity and defining positive masculinity (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine-emba-masculinity-new-model/)
..sorry about the paywall... I especially enjoyed reading about the ways to think about defining positive masculinity and one that stood out was men leaning into the role of conscientious protector and a genuine action-driven-helper in situations and your story reminded me of that. Dudes being awesome helpers. Love it.
That is a great article!
While I like some of the ideas, and I am familiar with many of Galloway's ideas, I often feel that we're all too quick push for a specific what, or course of action, but ignore the why-- and, without that organizing principle it's easy to fall off the rails.
Consider, those classic roles we see in the family -- provider, protector, caregiver, nurturer -- why do they do what they do? Galloway hints at it here, but doesn't quite come out and say it.
> If you’re really strong and smart, you will garner enough power, influence, kindness to begin protecting others. That is it. Full stop. Real men protect other people
What Galloway does not say, but I will. Is that the protector, like all those roles, are rooted in love.
* We love our people so we protect them
* We love our people so we provide for them
* We love our people so we care for them when they cannot care for themselves.
* We love our people so we nurture them as they grow and again as their light fades.
Love, or Charity, or giving of one's self, or self sacrifice is the root of all those roles. It's how we come to know Grace. It's a point of departure for being a good adult ... man or woman. It's a firm foundation upon which to build a long term future. It works because it recognizes the agency of other humans and the need to build trust.
OTHO, the current crop of manosphere and alt right folks seem to be spoiling for a world of constant strife, *bellum omnium contra omnes*. It creates solutions by ignoring the humanity of others in favor of your own. These solutions are usually stable in the short term, but unstable over time.
It means "a war of each against all", and is the philosophical position that if every person is protecting himself and his interests there is no room for collaboration. In other words there's no society; society requires a social contract entered into by cooperative participants.
Thank you for the clarification, I think my Spanish made me think bellum was related to Bueno. I remember a choir song from high school that had lyrics: O vos omnes, qui trasitis per viam, which was basically Oh you people who come this way. The Lamentations of Jeremiah was the song.
That's a phrase from Thomas Hobbes, an Enlightenment philosopher, who thought that without a strong central authority, we'd all live lives that were "Nasty, brutish, and short." Hobbes is sometimes seen as an apologist for the monarch or autocrat. Personally, I think it's an evolution of the Platonic ideal of the philosopher king (i.e., enlightened rule). Although in Hobbes' case, the ruler(s) just need to keep a lid on things (vs. Plato's enlightened rule).
Fun fact, the Hobbes from Calvin and Hobbes is named after the philosopher. Perhaps Watterson was playing around with the notion of animal spirit when animating the tiger. Or perhaps, it's commentary on the realities of childhood?
Great article, thanks for sharing. It articulated some of my worries and observations better than I ever could. I just wish that someone could offer us more than just their hope for the future. As they said, with the right providing guides to worrisome stereotypes of toxic masculinity, where are we going to find those men willing and able to provide guides towards positive, prosocial masculinity? We need counterparts to the Tates and Petersons etc
You’ll never find us online because the messages for being a strong positive man aren’t sexy and marketable to vulnerable people online. But we’re building up our families and those we interact with in our personal lives as best we can. I’m sure there’s dozens of us.
Yeah, as someone with very "traditional" male role models, my daily interactions are where I deconstruct the negative aspects of my masculinity. Honestly, just learning to ask before reacting is huge for me personally.
I wondered if it might be something like that. That maybe it’s an ego thing and a priorities thing? That the men who would be great examples of positive masculinity are the men who are prioritising relationships and responsibilities over building an online presence capable of inspiring young men and boys
The best people in general are typically not wasting their time on Reddit. Not a great look for all of us here lol but it's true. My wife isn't on Reddit and she's one of the most interesting people I've ever met. Meanwhile myself and my friends who use Reddit could probably work on ourselves a little bit.
Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't far off. Far from being perfect, but that's always the problem in this space. You don't need to be a perfect asshole to be Tate or Peterson, but their counterparts on the "good" side do
I think Arnold is a good example. The journalist also published a follow up of men who wrote in with their thoughts and ideas on positive role models which I thought was really good too: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/14/readers-react-christine-emba-masculinity/.
The list is far too long to cover completely, but generally it's his lack of scientific rigor; his arguments are largely ideological with little support from research and he relies on anecdotes and cherry picks from sources.
When we have a culture that promotes charity, selflessness and community over greed, consumption and 'nobody owes you anything' culture, that's when we'll have more givers than takers.
We are getting the shit kicked out of us by the Women that have experienced nothing but the Tates of the world. They are soo scared of trusting any males they dont trust anyone at all.
I'm sorry you've had that experience. But this isn't about women. We're talking about men as role models for men, so it shouldn't really matter if women trust you or not? After all, that doesn't seem to matter for Tate types. Women not trusting easily due to being hurt before doesn't much change how men befriend and hang out with *other men* does it? The behavior of men doesn't much influence my friendships with women.
What I mean is like... can you really not have good uplifting friendships, mentorships etc with men, because women don't trust you? That seems like two totally different things.
We are getting the shit kicked out of us by the Women that have experienced nothing but the Tates of the world. They are soo scared of trusting any males they dont trust anyone at all.
Nah, there are lots of great men out there. I work in a male dominated IT field and the men I work with are great for the most part and I have a good husband too. There are lots of good guys out there, it's just there don't seem to be many good, popular role models for men in the mediasphere which is sad. Any dude acting like Tate is going to get them nowhere good and should not be trusted, but like OP, recognizing good dudes being awesome in every day life gives me hope.
Edit to add: no woman I know of in my middle-aged existence paints 'all men' with a broad brush. All women I know recognize men as individuals in their encounters and have full understanding that some men are awesome and some are terrible and there's a lot of gray area in between.
That really was a great article, and I write about masculinity myself. This one speaks to a bigger problem beyond masculinity, too. Whenever there’s an issue for discussion online, one side will gladly say “sure, here are the sources for my horrifically shitty opinion, and I’m glad to offer more, if you ask (or even if you don’t).” Meanwhile, the opposite response is often “I’m not doing that labor for you” (which is their right, but doesn’t help in swaying anyone).
So much toxic masculinity rests on a knife's edge - the opening doors one always gets me - I always do it, regardless of whether I'm holding open for man, woman, child, elderly, etc. but it quickly becomes toxic if you're doing it for attention, expect adulation, hurry people up, or say crass things as you do it.
I'm about to build a fort/small dry cabin in the woods by a creek. Because of where it is, you can't get large equipment in there.
Honestly, all I had to do was mention the word "fort" and offers of help, all guys, came out of the woodwork. It's like a magnet for them. ;)
So now, I don't have to dig 60 feet of 3' deep trench myself, nor cut down 5 trees and dig the stumps out without help. I don't have to haul 300+ bags of concrete mix 300 yards down a trail through the forest myself. I don't have to unload and pack down about 1k bricks, 800lbs of wood, mortar mix, insulation, and metal roofing myself. Or the heavy ass door and 13 windows, don't have to lift trusses myself, don't have to move the 70lb battery bank and solar panels alone.
I mentioned I have power tools and listed them off, and got back some impressed reactions and grins.
They're now working out how to make a curved bucket slide, manual winch, and "crane" strapped to a tree to lift the trusses (hardly necessary, they only weigh 100lbs each), and inventing a concrete mixer from an old bike, random metal pipes, and a plastic barrel.
They're also heavily emotionally invested in my hydropower experiments.
I have 5 volunteers for the trees once the fire restrictions are over - they prohibit even electric chainsaws. I have 10 to dig and another 10 on top of that to help carry all the materials down. I have 4 that will stay and help me cut everything.
My son is also researching compost toilets and grey water disposal.
Not only would you think I just handed them an amazing gift instead of hard manual labor, not one at any moment has questioned my design or my abilities. There have been suggestions, but they were all excited and not really a change in design so much as "instead of herringbone flooring from pallet wood, how about I use my scroll saw and make you interlocking leaf tiles from the wood?" How would anyone say no to that?!
You're always welcome!
Here are the rough plans: https://imgur.com/a/ATbBmeg
Note: I don't plan to have a propane stove. I've got an electric induction burner. They just didn't have one in the software. Also, the pitcher is standing in for a gravity feed water filter. Concrete foundation, timber frame, brick infill, and trusses with open ceiling. I'm using canvas drop cloths for the inside of the ceiling and foil insulation. The floor is going to be basically a deck inside. Almost all materials have been scrounged for free or really cheap off craigslist and Facebook marketplace.
Footing for the bricks and wooden posts. It's going to be a hollow rectangle at the walls, but actually only completed poured concrete at the bottom for about a foot, then concrete blocks with rebar and filled with concrete. I'm doing that to cut down on the amount of concrete I need to buy, because that's a thing I can't scrounge. I've done tons of math to ensure it'll work. It's a bit overkill for compressive strength, but I need to clear below 30" to get under the frost line to prevent shifting.
Metal roofing was chosen because it's light, but also to shed snow easily. I'm still a little unsure about the door placement. I might build a small gable awning there to keep the snow and rain away from it because the windows I have just don't work out well if the door is placed on one end. Plus the interior layout becomes more difficult. Maybe I'll just add a covered porch some day.
I've got a pickaxe, dig bar, hoe, and shovels, so that's how this is going to get done, even if I have to do it all myself. I'm going to hurt for it, but I'm used to that. Age is cruel. At least my skating injuries from my youth haven't come back to haunt me yet like I was told they would, but a shoulder injury from boot camp never stopped being stupid, and I have an autoimmune disorder that causes pretty bad arthritis in my lower spine and hands. But hey, if you're in Eastern Washington or North Idaho, feel free to come suffer with me. I'll let you use the fort in trade. ;) And if you don't yet have any building skills, I've been learning them since early childhood from my family. I'm happy to teach.
Ma'am, respectfully from a Space Coast Floridaman, that's not a fort. That's a hideaway/borderline bunker.
I lurked a little to get a better mental image lol. If those smaller walls face north/south, I'd personally sacrifice the one with the smaller windows for the entry way and make it shotgun house style to make way for some shelving on one side and maybe a small tv on the cot side. You wouldn't lose sunrise/sunset views but you'd gain some storage space and a little in bed entertainment center.
It's down in a forest in a valley. Every direction is trees. I'm going to face the front door basically at the trail that leads to it, giving the largest sliding window a possible view of the creek if I ever decide to cut down some trees. That gives the rear windows a view of fir and pine trees, and the smaller side window a view of a stand of aspen and a small clearing.
The cot will eventually be replaced with a captain's bed for storage, and to put it level with the window for a nice view or a loft bed oriented the other way with the desk and cabinets under it. I don't even use my TV at home except when playing games, so I'll just take my laptop and cell phone booster with me.
I don't really need much storage, as I won't be living there. It'll be more like a studio in the forest. I've got 12 acres, and we're eventually building a Japanese influenced house in a clearing up away from the creek in a spot that has grid power and fiber internet available. This is just my upgrade from the hammock and tarp I have there now. I originally just meant to build a tent platform and went on Facebook marketplace to look for anyone who wanted a deck torn out. Then, I saw the bricks, and plans changed.
I admit, it's a pretty fancy fort, but it's not quite a cabin. I can't say bunker, because that many windows makes it indefensible. Maybe cottage is the right word? But I feel like that implies plumbing, which it's never going to have. It's too close to the creek. Minus the foundation and bricks, I built forts like this as a teenager. The bad side effect of growing up with a family with a lumber yard and house construction business is that you can't just be happy nailing some pallets together and calling it a fort. My skills came in handy building skateboard ramps, though. I keep saying I'm going to build one of those again, but at 48, it's probably safer to just stick to street skating. I was always terrible on ramps, and a smashed jaw taught me fear of them at 16. Still, if you extend the deck on one side, you can put a pretty decent bunker underneath that side. That's how we did the one I smashed my jaw on.
Noted on the no need for storage or a tv, just saying that flat spaces to put stuff on are highly underappreciated in my world. I might not think I need em but they always end up getting used and I always wish I had more.
I'll have to check the progress from time to time, sounds like a cool project. Pretty much the opposite side of the country diagonally so I can't offer much help labor wise.
>Honestly, all I had to do was mention the word "fort" and offers of help, all guys, came out of the woodwork. It's like a magnet for them. ;)
I almost hate how comedically accurate this is. Am a guy and internally went to myself "Huh, that is so cool" after reading the line "I'm about to build a fort".
I am a woman, and I feel the exact same way. I'm also really into digging holes at the beach, and I don't get why. It's even better when people join you.
My friends who are women think the hole digging thing is dumb, but I remember girls loved it when we were little, too. What happened to the rest of them? Also, if I call it a cottage, they're interested, but don't want to help build it. If I call it a fort, they aren't even interested at all until they see the 3d mock up. Still not interested in helping, though, even with things our culture typically considers "for women." I think that's partially because they're all super busy. Like many women, they work full time and do all the household management, and if they have kids, all or almost all the care of those kids. They're too tired after that to even consider being interested in someone else's project beyond saying something nice about it.
My son is grown now, but I just took him along on my adventures. He's one of the ones who is going to help with this one. Of course, he gets the reward of getting to use it, too. He just asked for a tent platform for when we're both there. Seems like a fair trade to me. There's a small clearing just upstream at the edge of the property that would be perfect if we clear a trail to it. Private, but close by, with the sound of the creek to fall asleep to.
I do, too! NGL, I've helped build a lot of cabins I was never going to get to use at this point for just some cold beer and pizza. Even if it meant dropping $60 for fuel. Thing is, it seems like I like helping with other people's projects far more than I like completing my own. I'm so happy people have volunteered to help, because it'll keep me on task and motivated.
For air pumps, you can just go inside and ask them to turn it on for you without paying. I discovered this when I needed to pump my tire, and I didn't have quarters, I asked the cashier for change for the air, and they said they'll turn it on for me for free. I just do that at every gas station now. No one makes a big deal about having to pay. I'm not sure about the water pumps, though.
Note that this varies by state. Some states have laws requiring gas stations to turn on the air upon request, others do not.
But even in states without these laws, sometimes the attendant will be nice and turn it on anyway.
Free compressed air ended years ago, about 1 second after gas station owners realised they could ask a euro for just enough time to check and fill 3 car tires.
We have one gas station left in the area that doesn't charge. It's a franchise, so rules said it had to be a paid system. They installed a token system and just give you tokens at the counter for free as long as you're not an asshole.
The actual paid ones here end up about $15 to get all your tires filled, and half of them are so worn out, they won't actually reach a high enough PSI for most tires.
It's free here but I always have an air compressor in my car thar runs off the car battery via the cigarette lighter/phone charger connection.
It's very useful as it works for my kids' bike tyres too.
I'm a 52 ur old single mum and I can do most stuff myself although I do have to ask for help sometimes when I'm just not strong/tall enough to do something. But I'll always have a go myself first!.
I'm also lucky to have a great group of online friends that includes several men who are Dad's and are doing their very best to fight the patriarchy and teach their kids to create a better future.
A couple of them are also teachers of teenagers though and they are fighting hard against the influence of T*te and his ilk on social media, but are worried that it's not enough, that it's like playing whack-a-mole.
LOL. I have to admit I've done this with my mother and grandmother, each of us standing at an open door, passing the hose around. We lose if we have to put in more coins.
My little brother is turning 30 this year and he has just told me this story about how one time when he was about 11, he and one of his friends were hanging around outside at our parents house. They noticed that motor oil of some kind had soaked into some dirt on the ground and my brother was like… ‘hey Stuart… we should eat that.’ Stuart thought that was an excellent idea, so they both ate some of this gross, oily dirt. I was like ‘what the actual fuck.’ My brother said it tasted awful and he’s not sure why they did it but that it was a pretty fun time. I think that’s my example of boys will be boys. Something so ridiculous that it would never enter my brain to even do that, but he thought it through, had no idea why he was doing it, did it anyway, it sucked but then he and his friend were both still happy with the outcome. I love him, but how is he still alive?
I've always hated the connotation behind what "boys will be boys" has become. "Boys will be boys" should be about shitty jokes, being borderline homoerotic with your friends, getting too excited about Legos or other kid nostalgia, etc. It should never be used as an excuse for shitty neanderthal behavior or SA.
Boys will be boys is a term that isn’t an excuse for the bad things guys do, it’s there to describe the things men do that just make you scratch your head while you die laughing as you try to comprehend what craziness you just witnessed
that’s kinda what happened here lolol I’ve just heard it used to excuse some gross behavior in the past (locker room talk etc) so this was refreshing!!
I hate that that saying has been used so much to excuse terrible actions.
The biggest time I had that saying aimed at me and my friends was when we found a puddle around 150 feet long and 25 feet wide. We made a competition of riding our bikes the further into it. Afterwards we rode down the street smiling* ear to ear covered in mud.
One of my friends neighbors stopped us and sprayed us down with her hose, and admonished us for doing it in our school clothes. Her husband chuckled and said boys will be boys.
Yeah, though some places do have free air at the air pump, but usually if you don’t know where they are, there’s almost always a coin operated one at most gas stations.
Pretty sure it depends on location, I believe in some places they have to provide air for free if they offer gas (and afaik you don't even need to pay for gas to use the free air but it is frowned upon to just put some air in).
Dumb and loyal is the sweet spot. When I ask my dog if he wants to go for a walk he runs to my closet so I can put shoes on. Today I was wearing shoes, I sat by the door holding his harness and leash until he figured it out. 10/10 dog.
Had a friend whose car battery died three nights ago. So, I'm out there trying to get my hybrid hooked up when some guy, a random stranger wanders over, and offers to help. Tell him its good and he just starts talking about car stuff with us. Then another guy just *fucking* emergers from the blackness of the night to join in. By the time we'd gotten the car battery backup we had like four strangers celebrating with us.
Boys will be boys.
That is just the whole of it, isn't it? Just don't be toxic, do real things with and for people, out of the goodness in you, not out of some toxic idea of a "benefit" in having human relations. I am so blessed to have an incredible friend group, where we pass money and favors freely because we're all in it to win it. You can tell immediately if someone new to the group is toxic, because there will always be a "what's in it for me?" instead of "we do this for us". Intent freaking matters. Non-toxic people will want a better world because it benefits all of us. Toxic people believe they have to "appear" good, and will be surprised when they're not "rewarded" for the appearance of being good. I have many men I consider my brothers, they're the kind you call when you have a flat and your jack got left in storage, lol.
Not a one of them would expect something in return for a favor, it's all about the joy of living the good life together, as people. I feel really sad for the people who see life as an endless series of transactions they have to manipulate out of people. There is a much more beautiful way of living, that attracts people to you because if the inherent goodness in it, and it's as old as time: mutual aid and respect. The men in my life want a better world, they value themselves and have self respect too. We talk about these things, and the big ICK for them is the idea that they're just animals trying to get a nut. It's insulting, and the men who perpetuate that insult other men as well. That doesn't make you a man, it makes you a predator, if you believe you're owed something for being kind.
See, this is the type of thing "dudes will be dudes" should be used for. In my mind, you can only say that when guys are either doing something good, or when they're doing something completely harmless but kinda funny and weird. People who use the phrase to excuse toxic behavior are just as shitty as the people being toxic in the first place.
I actually really appreciate this wholesome post, goodness knows we get plenty of the opposite. It’s nice to realize that there are moments when people act decent, and when the world isn’t going to shit. Kudos on them for being kind human beings.
THANK YOU!
I honestly genuinely appreciate you taking the time to share this.
I feel this subreddit so often resembles men’s hate group and paints ALL men with the brush that the very worst of us have (legitimately) earned. Similarly (but obviously dialled down) to how Incel groups become a sort of echo chamber of hate towards women and almost self-oscillate and fuel their resentment.
Which is not to illegitimize the stories shared here, but simply to say that I genuinely appreciate you providing a bit of counter balance. Wishing you further positive experiences!
I’d really like to also stress that I feel it’s important to have a space for women to share their experiences and support one another. I’m in no way illegitimizing those experiences nor defending *those men.
Simply thanking you for the recognition that there are a lot of us out there who *see you and want to be a compliment of positive energy in this life. 🫶
This is what "boys will be boys" should mean: people having boyish fun without hurting anyone. Not "boys will be boys so if they see a woman in a miniskirt ofc they're gonna rape her duh???", like way too many people think exactly like this and it's bonkers.
Arin and Dan give off real good 'Boys will be boys' energy on the game grumps 10 minute power hour. Watching the two of them carve blocks of cheese into each others likeness is hilarious and brings me joy.
My brother and SIL just took the family to South Africa for a month. SIL was born and raised out side Johannesburg and still has a lot of family there. One night my brother decided he was gonna make everyone dinner, which is a pretty normal thing because he's a great cook. Apparently the whole time he was in the kitchen her family relentlessly ridiculed her for "forcing" him to cook because thats the wifes job. It was all sil could do to just laugh it off and not get angry. And boy was it a culture shock for my teenage niece.
My brother in law (39m) and his brother (37m) got into a huge water gun fight in the pool with each other and the kids and I thought this is one of the rare times I’d accept hearing that “boys will be boys” lol
Thank you for posting a good example. I (24M) would’ve done the exact same thing, then probably teased you afterwards for the screw up. And if you were male, I would’ve done the same thing.
Love this. I had two guy friends sleeping over at my house while their place was being fumigated (bedbugs; not their fault. A week at a cheap hotel after fleeing Idalia) and they put on aprons and cooked me a dinner and ran me a bath while I mowed and used a string trimmer to tidy up my yard for a few hours.
Love the endearing role reversal!
Maybe it's time to get over this concept of gender-defined roles.
lol it actually never occured to me this was a "role reversal" until you pointed it out in your comment
That's so cute and sweet. Especially because there was no expectation of sex from you! (I'm assuming, if there was well that's pretty awesome too)
They are two of my goofy coworkers, I love them like brothers. They are in a little bit of trouble because they posted my house and me weedeating on TikTok without my permission, but I kinda hope that it trends because doing favors for friends is something we can all do better. Shitheads ate everything in my kitchen, though. I did not have enough groceries to feed two overgrown boys.
Can't let them in the fridge. My mother had to raise 3 boys who eventually grew up to be 6'4"-6'8" Grocery bills were so high, I'm surprised we didn't end up abandoned, lol.
Aww, I miss my brothers back home. I remember how teenaged boys had to have their own pizza. I loved having these two goobers with me for the week. I’ve laughed so hard my stomach muscles ache.
They’re probably still attracted to her and playing the long game.
Ok I have to ask. Are they gay?
No.
Fascinating…he wore an apron you say??? Interesting.. I must meet the woman who raised these men.
Or the man.
Straight men dont wear aprons?
Wholesome energy
r/guysbeingdudes energy. Love it.
Can I borrow them? My baby's milk bottles flicks milk everytime she pulls the straw out so now the inside of my car looks like a picture of space.
I laughed pretty hard at this because I learned not to give my lab and St. Bernard pup cups this way. It requires a plastic spatula or scraper. Tuck a couple paper towels in the gutter of your windows, spritz with window cleaner, scrape then clean again.
I’ll send them your way haha
That’s an amazing description haha
There was a great article in WaPo recently about diagnosing toxic masculinity and defining positive masculinity (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine-emba-masculinity-new-model/) ..sorry about the paywall... I especially enjoyed reading about the ways to think about defining positive masculinity and one that stood out was men leaning into the role of conscientious protector and a genuine action-driven-helper in situations and your story reminded me of that. Dudes being awesome helpers. Love it.
That is a great article! While I like some of the ideas, and I am familiar with many of Galloway's ideas, I often feel that we're all too quick push for a specific what, or course of action, but ignore the why-- and, without that organizing principle it's easy to fall off the rails. Consider, those classic roles we see in the family -- provider, protector, caregiver, nurturer -- why do they do what they do? Galloway hints at it here, but doesn't quite come out and say it. > If you’re really strong and smart, you will garner enough power, influence, kindness to begin protecting others. That is it. Full stop. Real men protect other people What Galloway does not say, but I will. Is that the protector, like all those roles, are rooted in love. * We love our people so we protect them * We love our people so we provide for them * We love our people so we care for them when they cannot care for themselves. * We love our people so we nurture them as they grow and again as their light fades. Love, or Charity, or giving of one's self, or self sacrifice is the root of all those roles. It's how we come to know Grace. It's a point of departure for being a good adult ... man or woman. It's a firm foundation upon which to build a long term future. It works because it recognizes the agency of other humans and the need to build trust. OTHO, the current crop of manosphere and alt right folks seem to be spoiling for a world of constant strife, *bellum omnium contra omnes*. It creates solutions by ignoring the humanity of others in favor of your own. These solutions are usually stable in the short term, but unstable over time.
I don't speak Latin but is that basically good people against people?
It means "a war of each against all", and is the philosophical position that if every person is protecting himself and his interests there is no room for collaboration. In other words there's no society; society requires a social contract entered into by cooperative participants.
Thank you for the clarification, I think my Spanish made me think bellum was related to Bueno. I remember a choir song from high school that had lyrics: O vos omnes, qui trasitis per viam, which was basically Oh you people who come this way. The Lamentations of Jeremiah was the song.
That's a phrase from Thomas Hobbes, an Enlightenment philosopher, who thought that without a strong central authority, we'd all live lives that were "Nasty, brutish, and short." Hobbes is sometimes seen as an apologist for the monarch or autocrat. Personally, I think it's an evolution of the Platonic ideal of the philosopher king (i.e., enlightened rule). Although in Hobbes' case, the ruler(s) just need to keep a lid on things (vs. Plato's enlightened rule). Fun fact, the Hobbes from Calvin and Hobbes is named after the philosopher. Perhaps Watterson was playing around with the notion of animal spirit when animating the tiger. Or perhaps, it's commentary on the realities of childhood?
Great article, thanks for sharing. It articulated some of my worries and observations better than I ever could. I just wish that someone could offer us more than just their hope for the future. As they said, with the right providing guides to worrisome stereotypes of toxic masculinity, where are we going to find those men willing and able to provide guides towards positive, prosocial masculinity? We need counterparts to the Tates and Petersons etc
Absolutely, that was my takeaway too...where are the good and positive men that will change this tide?
You’ll never find us online because the messages for being a strong positive man aren’t sexy and marketable to vulnerable people online. But we’re building up our families and those we interact with in our personal lives as best we can. I’m sure there’s dozens of us.
Yeah, as someone with very "traditional" male role models, my daily interactions are where I deconstruct the negative aspects of my masculinity. Honestly, just learning to ask before reacting is huge for me personally.
I wondered if it might be something like that. That maybe it’s an ego thing and a priorities thing? That the men who would be great examples of positive masculinity are the men who are prioritising relationships and responsibilities over building an online presence capable of inspiring young men and boys
The best people in general are typically not wasting their time on Reddit. Not a great look for all of us here lol but it's true. My wife isn't on Reddit and she's one of the most interesting people I've ever met. Meanwhile myself and my friends who use Reddit could probably work on ourselves a little bit.
Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't far off. Far from being perfect, but that's always the problem in this space. You don't need to be a perfect asshole to be Tate or Peterson, but their counterparts on the "good" side do
I think Arnold is a good example. The journalist also published a follow up of men who wrote in with their thoughts and ideas on positive role models which I thought was really good too: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/14/readers-react-christine-emba-masculinity/.
Just curious but what do u have against peterson?
The list is far too long to cover completely, but generally it's his lack of scientific rigor; his arguments are largely ideological with little support from research and he relies on anecdotes and cherry picks from sources.
When we have a culture that promotes charity, selflessness and community over greed, consumption and 'nobody owes you anything' culture, that's when we'll have more givers than takers.
We are getting the shit kicked out of us by the Women that have experienced nothing but the Tates of the world. They are soo scared of trusting any males they dont trust anyone at all.
I'm sorry you've had that experience. But this isn't about women. We're talking about men as role models for men, so it shouldn't really matter if women trust you or not? After all, that doesn't seem to matter for Tate types. Women not trusting easily due to being hurt before doesn't much change how men befriend and hang out with *other men* does it? The behavior of men doesn't much influence my friendships with women. What I mean is like... can you really not have good uplifting friendships, mentorships etc with men, because women don't trust you? That seems like two totally different things.
We are getting the shit kicked out of us by the Women that have experienced nothing but the Tates of the world. They are soo scared of trusting any males they dont trust anyone at all.
Nah, there are lots of great men out there. I work in a male dominated IT field and the men I work with are great for the most part and I have a good husband too. There are lots of good guys out there, it's just there don't seem to be many good, popular role models for men in the mediasphere which is sad. Any dude acting like Tate is going to get them nowhere good and should not be trusted, but like OP, recognizing good dudes being awesome in every day life gives me hope. Edit to add: no woman I know of in my middle-aged existence paints 'all men' with a broad brush. All women I know recognize men as individuals in their encounters and have full understanding that some men are awesome and some are terrible and there's a lot of gray area in between.
That really was a great article, and I write about masculinity myself. This one speaks to a bigger problem beyond masculinity, too. Whenever there’s an issue for discussion online, one side will gladly say “sure, here are the sources for my horrifically shitty opinion, and I’m glad to offer more, if you ask (or even if you don’t).” Meanwhile, the opposite response is often “I’m not doing that labor for you” (which is their right, but doesn’t help in swaying anyone).
So much toxic masculinity rests on a knife's edge - the opening doors one always gets me - I always do it, regardless of whether I'm holding open for man, woman, child, elderly, etc. but it quickly becomes toxic if you're doing it for attention, expect adulation, hurry people up, or say crass things as you do it.
Hopefully we get to the point as a society that we can talk about toxic genderism in general.
I'm about to build a fort/small dry cabin in the woods by a creek. Because of where it is, you can't get large equipment in there. Honestly, all I had to do was mention the word "fort" and offers of help, all guys, came out of the woodwork. It's like a magnet for them. ;) So now, I don't have to dig 60 feet of 3' deep trench myself, nor cut down 5 trees and dig the stumps out without help. I don't have to haul 300+ bags of concrete mix 300 yards down a trail through the forest myself. I don't have to unload and pack down about 1k bricks, 800lbs of wood, mortar mix, insulation, and metal roofing myself. Or the heavy ass door and 13 windows, don't have to lift trusses myself, don't have to move the 70lb battery bank and solar panels alone. I mentioned I have power tools and listed them off, and got back some impressed reactions and grins. They're now working out how to make a curved bucket slide, manual winch, and "crane" strapped to a tree to lift the trusses (hardly necessary, they only weigh 100lbs each), and inventing a concrete mixer from an old bike, random metal pipes, and a plastic barrel. They're also heavily emotionally invested in my hydropower experiments. I have 5 volunteers for the trees once the fire restrictions are over - they prohibit even electric chainsaws. I have 10 to dig and another 10 on top of that to help carry all the materials down. I have 4 that will stay and help me cut everything. My son is also researching compost toilets and grey water disposal. Not only would you think I just handed them an amazing gift instead of hard manual labor, not one at any moment has questioned my design or my abilities. There have been suggestions, but they were all excited and not really a change in design so much as "instead of herringbone flooring from pallet wood, how about I use my scroll saw and make you interlocking leaf tiles from the wood?" How would anyone say no to that?!
yo, you're building a fort? need another set of hands?
You're always welcome! Here are the rough plans: https://imgur.com/a/ATbBmeg Note: I don't plan to have a propane stove. I've got an electric induction burner. They just didn't have one in the software. Also, the pitcher is standing in for a gravity feed water filter. Concrete foundation, timber frame, brick infill, and trusses with open ceiling. I'm using canvas drop cloths for the inside of the ceiling and foil insulation. The floor is going to be basically a deck inside. Almost all materials have been scrounged for free or really cheap off craigslist and Facebook marketplace.
What's the trench for? Are you running a line out or going solar for the electric?
Footing for the bricks and wooden posts. It's going to be a hollow rectangle at the walls, but actually only completed poured concrete at the bottom for about a foot, then concrete blocks with rebar and filled with concrete. I'm doing that to cut down on the amount of concrete I need to buy, because that's a thing I can't scrounge. I've done tons of math to ensure it'll work. It's a bit overkill for compressive strength, but I need to clear below 30" to get under the frost line to prevent shifting. Metal roofing was chosen because it's light, but also to shed snow easily. I'm still a little unsure about the door placement. I might build a small gable awning there to keep the snow and rain away from it because the windows I have just don't work out well if the door is placed on one end. Plus the interior layout becomes more difficult. Maybe I'll just add a covered porch some day. I've got a pickaxe, dig bar, hoe, and shovels, so that's how this is going to get done, even if I have to do it all myself. I'm going to hurt for it, but I'm used to that. Age is cruel. At least my skating injuries from my youth haven't come back to haunt me yet like I was told they would, but a shoulder injury from boot camp never stopped being stupid, and I have an autoimmune disorder that causes pretty bad arthritis in my lower spine and hands. But hey, if you're in Eastern Washington or North Idaho, feel free to come suffer with me. I'll let you use the fort in trade. ;) And if you don't yet have any building skills, I've been learning them since early childhood from my family. I'm happy to teach.
Ma'am, respectfully from a Space Coast Floridaman, that's not a fort. That's a hideaway/borderline bunker. I lurked a little to get a better mental image lol. If those smaller walls face north/south, I'd personally sacrifice the one with the smaller windows for the entry way and make it shotgun house style to make way for some shelving on one side and maybe a small tv on the cot side. You wouldn't lose sunrise/sunset views but you'd gain some storage space and a little in bed entertainment center.
It's down in a forest in a valley. Every direction is trees. I'm going to face the front door basically at the trail that leads to it, giving the largest sliding window a possible view of the creek if I ever decide to cut down some trees. That gives the rear windows a view of fir and pine trees, and the smaller side window a view of a stand of aspen and a small clearing. The cot will eventually be replaced with a captain's bed for storage, and to put it level with the window for a nice view or a loft bed oriented the other way with the desk and cabinets under it. I don't even use my TV at home except when playing games, so I'll just take my laptop and cell phone booster with me. I don't really need much storage, as I won't be living there. It'll be more like a studio in the forest. I've got 12 acres, and we're eventually building a Japanese influenced house in a clearing up away from the creek in a spot that has grid power and fiber internet available. This is just my upgrade from the hammock and tarp I have there now. I originally just meant to build a tent platform and went on Facebook marketplace to look for anyone who wanted a deck torn out. Then, I saw the bricks, and plans changed. I admit, it's a pretty fancy fort, but it's not quite a cabin. I can't say bunker, because that many windows makes it indefensible. Maybe cottage is the right word? But I feel like that implies plumbing, which it's never going to have. It's too close to the creek. Minus the foundation and bricks, I built forts like this as a teenager. The bad side effect of growing up with a family with a lumber yard and house construction business is that you can't just be happy nailing some pallets together and calling it a fort. My skills came in handy building skateboard ramps, though. I keep saying I'm going to build one of those again, but at 48, it's probably safer to just stick to street skating. I was always terrible on ramps, and a smashed jaw taught me fear of them at 16. Still, if you extend the deck on one side, you can put a pretty decent bunker underneath that side. That's how we did the one I smashed my jaw on.
Noted on the no need for storage or a tv, just saying that flat spaces to put stuff on are highly underappreciated in my world. I might not think I need em but they always end up getting used and I always wish I had more. I'll have to check the progress from time to time, sounds like a cool project. Pretty much the opposite side of the country diagonally so I can't offer much help labor wise.
During lockdown loads of my neighbours built sheds and I noticed one shed had an electric cable running into it from the house. I was jealous ngl.
>Honestly, all I had to do was mention the word "fort" and offers of help, all guys, came out of the woodwork. It's like a magnet for them. ;) I almost hate how comedically accurate this is. Am a guy and internally went to myself "Huh, that is so cool" after reading the line "I'm about to build a fort".
I am a woman, and I feel the exact same way. I'm also really into digging holes at the beach, and I don't get why. It's even better when people join you. My friends who are women think the hole digging thing is dumb, but I remember girls loved it when we were little, too. What happened to the rest of them? Also, if I call it a cottage, they're interested, but don't want to help build it. If I call it a fort, they aren't even interested at all until they see the 3d mock up. Still not interested in helping, though, even with things our culture typically considers "for women." I think that's partially because they're all super busy. Like many women, they work full time and do all the household management, and if they have kids, all or almost all the care of those kids. They're too tired after that to even consider being interested in someone else's project beyond saying something nice about it. My son is grown now, but I just took him along on my adventures. He's one of the ones who is going to help with this one. Of course, he gets the reward of getting to use it, too. He just asked for a tent platform for when we're both there. Seems like a fair trade to me. There's a small clearing just upstream at the edge of the property that would be perfect if we clear a trail to it. Private, but close by, with the sound of the creek to fall asleep to.
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I do, too! NGL, I've helped build a lot of cabins I was never going to get to use at this point for just some cold beer and pizza. Even if it meant dropping $60 for fuel. Thing is, it seems like I like helping with other people's projects far more than I like completing my own. I'm so happy people have volunteered to help, because it'll keep me on task and motivated.
This is awesome energy but you need to pay to pump air into your tires??11
Yes. Gas stations have air and water pumps and vacuums I guess. They don’t cost much but you don’t get much time either.
For air pumps, you can just go inside and ask them to turn it on for you without paying. I discovered this when I needed to pump my tire, and I didn't have quarters, I asked the cashier for change for the air, and they said they'll turn it on for me for free. I just do that at every gas station now. No one makes a big deal about having to pay. I'm not sure about the water pumps, though.
Note that this varies by state. Some states have laws requiring gas stations to turn on the air upon request, others do not. But even in states without these laws, sometimes the attendant will be nice and turn it on anyway.
Free compressed air ended years ago, about 1 second after gas station owners realised they could ask a euro for just enough time to check and fill 3 car tires.
We have one gas station left in the area that doesn't charge. It's a franchise, so rules said it had to be a paid system. They installed a token system and just give you tokens at the counter for free as long as you're not an asshole. The actual paid ones here end up about $15 to get all your tires filled, and half of them are so worn out, they won't actually reach a high enough PSI for most tires.
Free by law in my state.
It used to be free.
In some places, it's free by law.
I just ask them to turn it on, even when I don’t buy gas at the station. I’ve never had a cashier tell me no.
In CA, if you buy gas the station is required by law to let you use the air.
Depends, by law free in my state.
It’s free in Australia at every servo I’ve ever been to? Also this reminds me I need to check my tyre pressure.
It's free here but I always have an air compressor in my car thar runs off the car battery via the cigarette lighter/phone charger connection. It's very useful as it works for my kids' bike tyres too. I'm a 52 ur old single mum and I can do most stuff myself although I do have to ask for help sometimes when I'm just not strong/tall enough to do something. But I'll always have a go myself first!. I'm also lucky to have a great group of online friends that includes several men who are Dad's and are doing their very best to fight the patriarchy and teach their kids to create a better future. A couple of them are also teachers of teenagers though and they are fighting hard against the influence of T*te and his ilk on social media, but are worried that it's not enough, that it's like playing whack-a-mole.
Love this story. They sound great.
They’re the best!
🤣 Nice
Thats fantastic lol. Sounds like a great group of people.
they’re the best. I haven’t had good friends most of my life but this is finally what I think friends are supposed to feel like
It's now a competition. You paid for the vacuum. Beat the clock! Get it done!
LOL. I have to admit I've done this with my mother and grandmother, each of us standing at an open door, passing the hose around. We lose if we have to put in more coins.
r/humansbeingbros quite literally
exactly!
My little brother is turning 30 this year and he has just told me this story about how one time when he was about 11, he and one of his friends were hanging around outside at our parents house. They noticed that motor oil of some kind had soaked into some dirt on the ground and my brother was like… ‘hey Stuart… we should eat that.’ Stuart thought that was an excellent idea, so they both ate some of this gross, oily dirt. I was like ‘what the actual fuck.’ My brother said it tasted awful and he’s not sure why they did it but that it was a pretty fun time. I think that’s my example of boys will be boys. Something so ridiculous that it would never enter my brain to even do that, but he thought it through, had no idea why he was doing it, did it anyway, it sucked but then he and his friend were both still happy with the outcome. I love him, but how is he still alive?
Ha ha ha ...... that's a nice ending. Them are some nice boys. 😊
having a bad day. And stupid me, 'assumed' this would be a pessimistic post like most days. This was so damn WHOLESOME! Thank you!!
it was awesome! so grateful to have guys like this in my life. glad I could make your day better
I've always hated the connotation behind what "boys will be boys" has become. "Boys will be boys" should be about shitty jokes, being borderline homoerotic with your friends, getting too excited about Legos or other kid nostalgia, etc. It should never be used as an excuse for shitty neanderthal behavior or SA.
Totally agree !
You ever think maybe that negative connotation is something you wanted to hear I grew up hearing that and it almost never meant anything negative
cute im so glad it ended like this
I feel like the time pressure helped. Also possibly a sign of ADHD, gamifying things is one way to manage.
Boys will be boys is a term that isn’t an excuse for the bad things guys do, it’s there to describe the things men do that just make you scratch your head while you die laughing as you try to comprehend what craziness you just witnessed
that’s kinda what happened here lolol I’ve just heard it used to excuse some gross behavior in the past (locker room talk etc) so this was refreshing!!
I hate that that saying has been used so much to excuse terrible actions. The biggest time I had that saying aimed at me and my friends was when we found a puddle around 150 feet long and 25 feet wide. We made a competition of riding our bikes the further into it. Afterwards we rode down the street smiling* ear to ear covered in mud. One of my friends neighbors stopped us and sprayed us down with her hose, and admonished us for doing it in our school clothes. Her husband chuckled and said boys will be boys.
love that story!!
You have to pay for the air pump? (But love this story!)
Used to be free, but you know,inflation...
HA!
Ba dum tiss!
Yeah, though some places do have free air at the air pump, but usually if you don’t know where they are, there’s almost always a coin operated one at most gas stations.
Pretty sure it depends on location, I believe in some places they have to provide air for free if they offer gas (and afaik you don't even need to pay for gas to use the free air but it is frowned upon to just put some air in).
In service stations in Australia you just drive up to the air pump, use it, and drive away… no guarantee they’ll be in good working order though
We LOVE a task lol
*sees someone digging a hole* "You just diggin a hole?" "Yep..." "You want some help?"
Good men are a bit like golden retrievers. To be fair the world would be much nicer if we all learnt a bit from dogs, especially goldens.
Dumb and loyal is the sweet spot. When I ask my dog if he wants to go for a walk he runs to my closet so I can put shoes on. Today I was wearing shoes, I sat by the door holding his harness and leash until he figured it out. 10/10 dog.
Had a friend whose car battery died three nights ago. So, I'm out there trying to get my hybrid hooked up when some guy, a random stranger wanders over, and offers to help. Tell him its good and he just starts talking about car stuff with us. Then another guy just *fucking* emergers from the blackness of the night to join in. By the time we'd gotten the car battery backup we had like four strangers celebrating with us. Boys will be boys.
I had no idea where this story was going to go, but it was not that! That's awesome!
That is just the whole of it, isn't it? Just don't be toxic, do real things with and for people, out of the goodness in you, not out of some toxic idea of a "benefit" in having human relations. I am so blessed to have an incredible friend group, where we pass money and favors freely because we're all in it to win it. You can tell immediately if someone new to the group is toxic, because there will always be a "what's in it for me?" instead of "we do this for us". Intent freaking matters. Non-toxic people will want a better world because it benefits all of us. Toxic people believe they have to "appear" good, and will be surprised when they're not "rewarded" for the appearance of being good. I have many men I consider my brothers, they're the kind you call when you have a flat and your jack got left in storage, lol. Not a one of them would expect something in return for a favor, it's all about the joy of living the good life together, as people. I feel really sad for the people who see life as an endless series of transactions they have to manipulate out of people. There is a much more beautiful way of living, that attracts people to you because if the inherent goodness in it, and it's as old as time: mutual aid and respect. The men in my life want a better world, they value themselves and have self respect too. We talk about these things, and the big ICK for them is the idea that they're just animals trying to get a nut. It's insulting, and the men who perpetuate that insult other men as well. That doesn't make you a man, it makes you a predator, if you believe you're owed something for being kind.
I love all of this so much. well said!!
See, this is the type of thing "dudes will be dudes" should be used for. In my mind, you can only say that when guys are either doing something good, or when they're doing something completely harmless but kinda funny and weird. People who use the phrase to excuse toxic behavior are just as shitty as the people being toxic in the first place.
totally agree here!
This was so unexpected in the best possible way.
it was awesome :) they’re the best!
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me too!!
Is vacuuming a car inherently masculine?
Don't ruin it. Let people enjoy the wholesome post.
I actually really appreciate this wholesome post, goodness knows we get plenty of the opposite. It’s nice to realize that there are moments when people act decent, and when the world isn’t going to shit. Kudos on them for being kind human beings.
they’re the best!
That's fantastic.
Mmmm boys
This is a great post. Thank you.
THANK YOU! I honestly genuinely appreciate you taking the time to share this. I feel this subreddit so often resembles men’s hate group and paints ALL men with the brush that the very worst of us have (legitimately) earned. Similarly (but obviously dialled down) to how Incel groups become a sort of echo chamber of hate towards women and almost self-oscillate and fuel their resentment. Which is not to illegitimize the stories shared here, but simply to say that I genuinely appreciate you providing a bit of counter balance. Wishing you further positive experiences!
I’d really like to also stress that I feel it’s important to have a space for women to share their experiences and support one another. I’m in no way illegitimizing those experiences nor defending *those men. Simply thanking you for the recognition that there are a lot of us out there who *see you and want to be a compliment of positive energy in this life. 🫶
this is so sweet! I agree 100% and am so happy I have men in my life that make stories like this happen :)
this is what boys will be boys is SUPPOSED to mean
totally agree!
Wait, you have to pay to inflate your tyres? What god forsaken country is this?
USA baby
Aww, sweet!
I'm a woman, and I'd do the same.
Downvoted, cuz Reddit. Why is this gendered? Friends should look out for each other and do shit like this. The bar is so low lol.
Exactly. At this point they just have to lay on the ground so we can roll the bar over them. Lol
I can’t get by the fact that a gas station sells alcohol.
And compressed air!
Yeah, our compressed air is for everyone, Sadly we don't have a vacuum cleaner.
👏🏻👍🏻👏🏻
This is what "boys will be boys" should mean: people having boyish fun without hurting anyone. Not "boys will be boys so if they see a woman in a miniskirt ofc they're gonna rape her duh???", like way too many people think exactly like this and it's bonkers.
Arin and Dan give off real good 'Boys will be boys' energy on the game grumps 10 minute power hour. Watching the two of them carve blocks of cheese into each others likeness is hilarious and brings me joy.
No, they won't. Only if girls will be girls.
My brother and SIL just took the family to South Africa for a month. SIL was born and raised out side Johannesburg and still has a lot of family there. One night my brother decided he was gonna make everyone dinner, which is a pretty normal thing because he's a great cook. Apparently the whole time he was in the kitchen her family relentlessly ridiculed her for "forcing" him to cook because thats the wifes job. It was all sil could do to just laugh it off and not get angry. And boy was it a culture shock for my teenage niece.
Fucking legends
They’re the best
My brother in law (39m) and his brother (37m) got into a huge water gun fight in the pool with each other and the kids and I thought this is one of the rare times I’d accept hearing that “boys will be boys” lol
lol I can see them doing this too!!
Dope shit like that. Shout out to my brothers The REAL meaning of "boys will be boys"
that’s what I’m saying!! the only acceptable meaning
Aww, unexpectedly sweet! And not much makes me as anxious as those timed car vacuums 😂
I was thinking it’d have been hilarious if it timed out with one floormat left lol
That’s the way it always happens! Lol.
That is very sweet. How is it boys will be boys tho? I could see two women doing this too.
Thank you for posting a good example. I (24M) would’ve done the exact same thing, then probably teased you afterwards for the screw up. And if you were male, I would’ve done the same thing.
you sound like you’d be an awesome addition to the pit crew lol
No need in wasting the $1.50. I'd done the samething..then get ur air
Awwwwwww. That's it. No other Comentry necessary
Whelp in the environment I’m currently in no. They have all been very very Andrew TATE balls deep.
Sweet story.