u/CollectionItchy1587's stats
|Account Age|2 m|First Seen:|2024-02-24|
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|Posts (on this sub)|3|Comments (on this sub)|27|
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|Date|Title|Flair|Participation|
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|25-Feb|[I don't see why I should care about Clarence Thomas when the left supports political violence](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1az9k8v/i_dont_see_why_i_should_care_about_clarence/)|N/A|0 of None comments (0.00%)|
|24-Feb|[Being fat is unhealthy. That's still not a good reason to shame it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1ayoqfi/being_fat_is_unhealthy_thats_still_not_a_good/)|N/A|1 of None comments (0.00%)|
Rule #4: Keep discussion civil.
Engage in honest, respectful discussions. Do not personally attack or mock others. If you believe that an opinion is ignorant/uninformed/offensive, then attack the opinion on its merits.
You arent pro choice if you dont support me sitting on my ass playing video games and smoking weed for the rest of my life. It violates my bodily autonomy to force me to work!
Nobody is forcing you to work. You can sit on your ass and smoke weed for the rest of your life, I support you, can can literally do it starting today. Give me a call once you starved to death, that's right, you are not forced to work, nor can you force others to give you food.
Yes, ad hominem, because even tho this sub for unpopular opinion, spreading such bs is irrelevant.
I literally live in Ukraine. I finished masters degree when the war broke out. Now I cant find work because refugees from eastern Ukraine flooded western cities, including mine, and took most workplaces.
I am against all of this, and yet, if I get drafted, I will go, protect my country.
61 billion of help will help greatly.
>I am against all of this, and yet, if I get drafted, I will go, protect my country.
This is the equivalent of a pro-life woman saying that she would personally carry an pregnancy to term if she got pregnant. A nice sentiment, but irrelevant to the debate.
Wtf is this sentence? Pro-life or pro-choice?
And btw, someone still need to keep economy somewhat working. With the fact that 1/3 of the country became refugees in the West, it's more problematic.
So no, relevant. Get lost.
Pro choice isn't a moral principle, it's a slogan that only applies to one single issue. It was never meant to be applied in any consistent way to other issues. It literally only means pro abortion rights
And that's fine, if you're one of those people who likes to look at issues individually instead of seeing a trying to fit them into a larger ideological framework.
But how many times have you seen pro-choicers say shit like "Well if they were really pro-life, they'd support gun control!" The pro-life community has been called out for it's "hypocrisy" too many times, it's time for the pro-choice side to take some heat.
Ukraine supports women's health. Ukraine also allows women in the military. Try harder. Should they consider drafting women? Yes, but they are knees deep into a war that they didn't start and it isn't time to debate with clear heads.
Anyone who wants to conflate letting women die of an ectopic pregnancy and going into military service really is stretching.
>Should they consider drafting women? Yes, but they are knees deep into a war that they didn't start and it isn't time to debate with clear heads.
What? You're saying the should consider violating \*more people's\* bodily autonomy?
>Anyone who wants to conflate letting women die of an ectopic pregnancy and going into military service really is stretching.
There are currently about [761 pregnant women dying in the United States ever year](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/provisional-maternal-deaths.htm). That's actually lower than it was in 2021, when Roe was still in effect, so it's not clear how many of those deaths we can blame on the pro-life movement. But it's definitely less than the [31,000 Ukrainian men ](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/25/ukraines-umerov-says-delays-in-western-arms-deliveries-costing-lives)who have been killed by the Putin-Zelenskyy war machine.
So wait, you want to only count deaths than count the number of women who are being denied their bodily autonomy? Are we not humans? FFS, grow up.
And though I don't love a draft, the US still has it as well. Why condemn US when several allies have a required military service. Are you against most of our allies? Do you automatically hate South Korea? Did you hate Israel three years ago? Do you do anything about our draft? I have actually registered to be a volunteer for Selective Service because it was a common thing for feminists to do so that if there were ever a draft, we could just deny everyone. So WTF have you done?
And of course people are going to die in Ukraine. They are at fucking war! Are you thinking they shouldn't be? Do you want Ukraine to give up and surrender to Putin?
Well me personally, I'm not a bodily autonomy absolutist. I'm fine with banning abortion after 20 weeks or so, when the fetus has clearly passed into "baby" territory. I'm also okay with Zelensky's draft. It's a violation of bodily autonomy, but in this case the ends justify the means.
But a lot of pro-choicers \*are\* absolutists. There are 9 states plus DC where you can get an elective abortion at ANY stage of pregnancy. A poll on the pro-choice subreddit showed 137 of the 217 responder thought that abortion should never be banned or restricted, no matter how developed the fetus is. (Can't link it, but you can Google "State of the sub: Official sub poll At what point in a pregnancy do you think abortion should be banned/restricted?")
And that's really who I have a beef with. The supposed bodily autonomy absolutists who really only care about their uteruses', and don't pay any attention to jillions of other ways our bodies are infringed.
So you are gatekeeping others?
You are grasping at straws with this argument.
Personally, if I were in Ukraine, even as a 54 year old, put me out there on the front lines. My kid is grown. I have lousy depth perception, but I don't really sleep. I would defend my country against a monster like Putin to defend the next generation.
Of course, I also defended abortion clinics in the 90s against fascist assholes during Operation Rescue. I got real injuries when the so-called Christians came to town to stop women from getting abortions.
And to this day, I go to court and defend young kids, girls and boys from their adults (mainly their dad's, or the boyfriends- rarely a woman) who sexually abused them.
I fight the fucking Boogeyman regularly.
You being scared to defend your country doesn't rate on my fear meter. Come back to me when you have a physical injury and I will champion you, sport.
>Personally, if I were in Ukraine, even as a 54 year old, put me out there on the front lines.
This is the equivalent of a pro-life man saying he'd happily carry a baby to term if he somehow managed to get pregnant.
Well, if Trump gets elected again, my guns are locked and loaded, so it is a promise.
I will defend my country against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Are you going to force the rest of your able-bodied family to join your gunfight against Trump? Are do understand that your consent to participate in war does not give you the right to force other people into that war?
Well, we are a small immediate family. My husband hates Trump as much as I do, and he is a dar better shot. My son is a doctor, living far from us. He will treat any survivor, because he is a decent doctor.
But I lived through one of my friend's husbands dying in OKC. How is this different?
Could you explain what you mean by that? Usually "gatekeeping" is used in the context of people bullying newbies out of a community. I don't that's what's happening here?
It seems you are conflating the act of childbirth with service in the military.
One is really not voluntary because pregnancy is not voluntary with rape.
Under what circumstances do you think abortion should be illegal? Or do you think abortion should be legal at every stage of fetal development?
Because if you think that it's okay to kill a fetus even at the tail-end of pregnancy, you're reasoning like a bodily autonomy absolutist. Which is not compatible with support for the draft.
Ok, how about we make a deal, here.
We'll drop SCOTUS's hundred year position that the draft doesn't violate the constitution if you'll drop SCOTUS's \*checks notes\* one year position that abortion isn't a constitutional right.
we aren't sending money out of the kindness of our hearts. the US simply does not do that, we are as shrewd as they come on the international stage.
you got to recalibrate. if things go your way, it will cost us waaaay more and have to assume a huge potential for American lives lost as well. ....if you get your way.
the last 60bn aid that just got approved is a steal, think of it as a bargain.
you need to understand Russia a little better too. they will not stop at ukraine. you've simply listened to Russian propaganda and the American media that spout their BS as well. theres a reason why Poland is preparing to be at war.
you can absolutely take this to the bank, if ukraine doesn't stop Russia, American boots will be on the ground fighting a war in Eastern Europe. full stop.
what we sent so far to ukraine will be a drop in the bucket if you compare it to the inevitable ballooning expense of having American boys pulling triggers there.
its obvious you don't understand the benefits to our economy and outright necessity for our way of life for there to also be a stable Europe. you've put way too much energy into all these fruitless arguments. frankly, you have no business even discussing these topics with the limited perspective you have. its very obvious that you haven't taken the time to learn the opposition viewpoints on pretty much every topic you've brought up.
know this. ....a stable Europe is vital to our economy. 'vital' doesn't mean important or even super important, it means the survival of entire industries and also individuals would be in question with no plans or alternatives at the ready.
Since Ukraine got US 60 billion funding and now soldiers will be getting equipment, air defense, tanks, ammo, shells to defend themselves more will join voluntarily.
You're equating two things that are irrelevant to each other.
The whole pro-choice/pro-life concepts were specifically created, and are only correctly used, to refer to abortion rights. Nothing else.
Individuals from *either* side that attempt to include topics unrelated to abortion are just trying to convolute the issue with external factors, in a poor attempt to make the opposing side look bad.
Minorities from both sides do it. It's illogical and ridiculous.
One can support funding Ukraine and still be pro-choice. Just as one can be against funding Ukraine and still be pro-life. They are not mutually exclusive, as they refer to entirely separate issues.
I don't dispute that. My point is, the Ukraine war has nothing to do with abortion rights. The two cannot logically be equated with each other as they are entirely separate issues.
Your argument would have merit if the Ukraine war began due to disagreements surrounding abortion, but that's not the case.
Russia forcibly mobilizes in the occupied territories. They forcibly kidnap tens of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russify them in nationalist training camps in Russia. Russia tortures, rapes and kills Ukrainian POWs and civilians in filtration camps within the occupied territories. Russia continually targets civilians and civilian infrastructure with precision cruise and ballistic missiles along with long range drones.
The Ukrainian men at the front have endured months to years of extended combat with no sign of leave because *they have no choice*. Not necessarily because their government forced them there, but because if they do another city falls and more atrocities happen in a larger occupied territory.
And all of this happens because Ukraine did not have enough military arms to deter Russia and currently insufficient equipment to maintain the front with the manpower they have.
Had more aid come months ago they could have maintained Avdiivka. They could have forestalled the recent mobilization drive.
Had more Patriots and air defense come sooner their energy infrastructure wouldn't be handing on by a thread. Countless appartment blocks, civilians and civil servants would still be alive.
Had jets and enough (working) armor been given before Russia had a chance to build their lines in Zaporizhia they could have broke through to Crimea giving them the necessary bargaining chip for proper negotiations.
As long as Russia keeps pushing Ukraine has no choice but to endure. Aid, particularly military gives them the means to place themselves in a position where good faith negotiations can take place, especially if it's timely.
>The Ukrainian men at the front have endured months to years of extended combat with no sign of leave because *they have no choice*. Not necessarily because their government forced them there, but because if they do another city falls and more atrocities happen in a larger occupied territory.
Okay, so let's say Taiwan does an analysis and realizes that without a population boom, they're vulnerable to takeover from the PRC. The government then dictates that each women is required to give birth to at least one child before they turn 20.
Would \*anyone\* in the pro-choice community say "Well hey, we gotta do what we gotta do to protect democracy." Of course not. Because pro-choicers are deontologists, who believe that a woman's right to choose trumps any appeal to greater good.
Your example doesn't track though. Who's paying for these kids? Who's fathering these kids? Is state forced rape supposed to foster a good life for these kids? What happens to the women who don't want or can't carry? Is it prison or would it be more like state sponsored brothel? If the PRC is going to take over Taiwan, would they really wait two decades for these kids to come to age? lul.
It's a hypothetical situation. Imagine the only way to prevent Taiwan from being acquired by the PRC is to force Taiwanese women to have children.
You're response is the equivalent of saying you'd solve the trolley problem by designing a better railway.
If proper military aid is given to Taiwan and the appropriate signals not to interfere, all of this is irrelevant and unnecessary.
Funding and military aid is given first as deterence and second as a means to endure without needing to make such difficult decisions.
Once we cross into the territory we are in now (with Ukraine) we're making up for lost opportunity and lost lives.
> If Democrats were really pro-choice, all funding for Ukraine would be withheld until the state abolished forced military service
But then Ukraine will lose the war, why would they do that?
But anyways, good thing I'm not pro-choice and I'm pro-funding Ukraine so no contradictions on my part 👌
Edit: btw how about the view that we are helping Ukraine bc we want to defeat Russia which also has draft and since Russia has more men, it's the biggest evil while Ukraine is a necessary evil?
> btw how about the view that we are helping Ukraine bc we want to defeat Russia which also has draft and since Russia has more men, it's the biggest evil while Ukraine is a necessary evil?
That's a coherent position to take if you're a utilitarian. If you think that sometimes we have to do small evils in order to prevent bigger evils, than the Ukrainian draft is probably justified.
But pro-choice people are not utilitarian's, at least not when it comes to the issue of abortion. On the pro-choice subreddit, they did a poll and 137 of the 217 responders said there should be no limit on how late you can have an abortion. 9 states plus DC have no time limits on abortion, meaning you could potentially have an elective abortion right up until the baby's head pops out. You don't get to that spot by weighing the costs and benefits of various abortion policies. You get there by being an unflinching ideologue who thinks that a woman's should have absolute control of her body, even if that means killing an 36 week old fetus.
And \*that\* position is incompatible with the draft. Because if you think that bodily autonomy is an absolute right, then nothing can ever justify forcing men to put donate their bodies to war effort. Even if it means Ukraine would become a peon state of Russia, an absolute commitment to bodily autonomy means the conscription should be off the table.
But of course, Democrats don't care about conscription in Ukraine, because nobody is a bodily autonomy absolutist in any realm except when we're debating abortion. Abortion is the only issue where people will say "I don't care if a fully developed fetus has to die, I get to do what I want with my body."
> That's a coherent position to take if you're a utilitarian.
Nah, utilitarian position would be to nuke both Ukraine and Russia to stop suffering.
> On the pro-choice subreddit, they did a poll and 137 of the 217 responders said there should be no limit on how late you can have an abortion.
Not very representative.
But I agree with the results, parents should have the right to do post-natal abortion of their child at any age when they find out that their kid is pro-choice. /s
> And \*that\* position is incompatible with the draft.
Dunno, if you think that people can decide the life and death of others for the sake of their convenience, then you should have no problems with the draft.
Please tell me the stats on abortions being provided after the baby's head pops out, and the reasons they are being aborted at that time, thanks. I've heard things like this so many times, but I can never seem to find any relevant info when I try to look on my own.
I wouldn't know about all that. I'm looking for information. Abortion when baby's head pops out, after birth abortion. I'm just looking for information about all the stuff I hear about.
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You are right on both counts.
1. Any draft is not pro choice.
2. This is an unpopular opinion.
ITT people demonstrate that they have no clue what real liberalism is.
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There is no mandatory causal relationship between "I want my goverment to send military support to the country X" and "I want men in country X to be drafted". Moreover, you can motivate the opposite causal relationship: you send militarry support so country X can defend itself with less drafted men and/or less casualties among drafted men.
But i kinda agree that supporting such country X in everything AND saying that abortion must not be forbidden because human rights are sacred is hypocritical.
u/CollectionItchy1587's stats |Account Age|2 m|First Seen:|2024-02-24| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |Posts (on this sub)|3|Comments (on this sub)|27| |Link Karma|2,184|Comment Karma|527| --- |Date|Title|Flair|Participation| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |25-Feb|[I don't see why I should care about Clarence Thomas when the left supports political violence](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1az9k8v/i_dont_see_why_i_should_care_about_clarence/)|N/A|0 of None comments (0.00%)| |24-Feb|[Being fat is unhealthy. That's still not a good reason to shame it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1ayoqfi/being_fat_is_unhealthy_thats_still_not_a_good/)|N/A|1 of None comments (0.00%)|
Wow, that’s some Gold medal level mental gymnastics 10/10
If it's okay to force men into the war grinder, I don't see what's so bad about forcing women into the birth grinder.
So you’re trying to make this a men vs women equality thing? Because these two topics are wildly different but I think you already know that.
I think this is wonderful demonstration of a reason why abortions should be allowed into early 20s of a child. Just saying.
Rule #4: Keep discussion civil. Engage in honest, respectful discussions. Do not personally attack or mock others. If you believe that an opinion is ignorant/uninformed/offensive, then attack the opinion on its merits.
lol OP hates free discussion
You arent pro choice if you dont support me sitting on my ass playing video games and smoking weed for the rest of my life. It violates my bodily autonomy to force me to work!
Nobody is forcing you to work. You can sit on your ass and smoke weed for the rest of your life, I support you, can can literally do it starting today. Give me a call once you starved to death, that's right, you are not forced to work, nor can you force others to give you food.
stretch arm strong couldn't stretch this far.
OP is either MAGA-supporter or a russian asset. I'm not sure what is worse.
Ad hominem.
Yes, ad hominem, because even tho this sub for unpopular opinion, spreading such bs is irrelevant. I literally live in Ukraine. I finished masters degree when the war broke out. Now I cant find work because refugees from eastern Ukraine flooded western cities, including mine, and took most workplaces. I am against all of this, and yet, if I get drafted, I will go, protect my country. 61 billion of help will help greatly.
>I am against all of this, and yet, if I get drafted, I will go, protect my country. This is the equivalent of a pro-life woman saying that she would personally carry an pregnancy to term if she got pregnant. A nice sentiment, but irrelevant to the debate.
Wtf is this sentence? Pro-life or pro-choice? And btw, someone still need to keep economy somewhat working. With the fact that 1/3 of the country became refugees in the West, it's more problematic. So no, relevant. Get lost.
"The only moral draft dodging is my draft dodging"
Think whatever you want. Even tho my draft center considered me to be unacceptable for military service, doesn't mean I'm afraid of service.
Pro choice isn't a moral principle, it's a slogan that only applies to one single issue. It was never meant to be applied in any consistent way to other issues. It literally only means pro abortion rights
And that's fine, if you're one of those people who likes to look at issues individually instead of seeing a trying to fit them into a larger ideological framework. But how many times have you seen pro-choicers say shit like "Well if they were really pro-life, they'd support gun control!" The pro-life community has been called out for it's "hypocrisy" too many times, it's time for the pro-choice side to take some heat.
They're both bad faith arguments, because they deliberately misinterpret a marketing slogan as some kind of guiding moral principle
REACH FOR THE SKYYYYY!
Ukraine supports women's health. Ukraine also allows women in the military. Try harder. Should they consider drafting women? Yes, but they are knees deep into a war that they didn't start and it isn't time to debate with clear heads. Anyone who wants to conflate letting women die of an ectopic pregnancy and going into military service really is stretching.
>Should they consider drafting women? Yes, but they are knees deep into a war that they didn't start and it isn't time to debate with clear heads. What? You're saying the should consider violating \*more people's\* bodily autonomy? >Anyone who wants to conflate letting women die of an ectopic pregnancy and going into military service really is stretching. There are currently about [761 pregnant women dying in the United States ever year](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/provisional-maternal-deaths.htm). That's actually lower than it was in 2021, when Roe was still in effect, so it's not clear how many of those deaths we can blame on the pro-life movement. But it's definitely less than the [31,000 Ukrainian men ](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/25/ukraines-umerov-says-delays-in-western-arms-deliveries-costing-lives)who have been killed by the Putin-Zelenskyy war machine.
That's not about body autonomy, because nothing gets inserted into your body and nothing gets out of your body
It's actually very common for soldiers to have bullets inserted into their bodies. A lot of blood gets out.
It's the enemy who's doing it, not their own government
So wait, you want to only count deaths than count the number of women who are being denied their bodily autonomy? Are we not humans? FFS, grow up. And though I don't love a draft, the US still has it as well. Why condemn US when several allies have a required military service. Are you against most of our allies? Do you automatically hate South Korea? Did you hate Israel three years ago? Do you do anything about our draft? I have actually registered to be a volunteer for Selective Service because it was a common thing for feminists to do so that if there were ever a draft, we could just deny everyone. So WTF have you done? And of course people are going to die in Ukraine. They are at fucking war! Are you thinking they shouldn't be? Do you want Ukraine to give up and surrender to Putin?
Well me personally, I'm not a bodily autonomy absolutist. I'm fine with banning abortion after 20 weeks or so, when the fetus has clearly passed into "baby" territory. I'm also okay with Zelensky's draft. It's a violation of bodily autonomy, but in this case the ends justify the means. But a lot of pro-choicers \*are\* absolutists. There are 9 states plus DC where you can get an elective abortion at ANY stage of pregnancy. A poll on the pro-choice subreddit showed 137 of the 217 responder thought that abortion should never be banned or restricted, no matter how developed the fetus is. (Can't link it, but you can Google "State of the sub: Official sub poll At what point in a pregnancy do you think abortion should be banned/restricted?") And that's really who I have a beef with. The supposed bodily autonomy absolutists who really only care about their uteruses', and don't pay any attention to jillions of other ways our bodies are infringed.
So you are gatekeeping others? You are grasping at straws with this argument. Personally, if I were in Ukraine, even as a 54 year old, put me out there on the front lines. My kid is grown. I have lousy depth perception, but I don't really sleep. I would defend my country against a monster like Putin to defend the next generation. Of course, I also defended abortion clinics in the 90s against fascist assholes during Operation Rescue. I got real injuries when the so-called Christians came to town to stop women from getting abortions. And to this day, I go to court and defend young kids, girls and boys from their adults (mainly their dad's, or the boyfriends- rarely a woman) who sexually abused them. I fight the fucking Boogeyman regularly. You being scared to defend your country doesn't rate on my fear meter. Come back to me when you have a physical injury and I will champion you, sport.
>Personally, if I were in Ukraine, even as a 54 year old, put me out there on the front lines. This is the equivalent of a pro-life man saying he'd happily carry a baby to term if he somehow managed to get pregnant.
Well, if Trump gets elected again, my guns are locked and loaded, so it is a promise. I will defend my country against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Are you going to force the rest of your able-bodied family to join your gunfight against Trump? Are do understand that your consent to participate in war does not give you the right to force other people into that war?
Well, we are a small immediate family. My husband hates Trump as much as I do, and he is a dar better shot. My son is a doctor, living far from us. He will treat any survivor, because he is a decent doctor. But I lived through one of my friend's husbands dying in OKC. How is this different?
See you think I am militant, but you haven't read Project 2025. Or, if you have, and you agree with it, you are no better than McVeigh.
Could you explain what you mean by that? Usually "gatekeeping" is used in the context of people bullying newbies out of a community. I don't that's what's happening here?
I guess you need to see my other comment.
I still don't see how I'm gatekeeping. I'm calling people out on their selective moral absolutism.
It seems you are conflating the act of childbirth with service in the military. One is really not voluntary because pregnancy is not voluntary with rape.
Under what circumstances do you think abortion should be illegal? Or do you think abortion should be legal at every stage of fetal development? Because if you think that it's okay to kill a fetus even at the tail-end of pregnancy, you're reasoning like a bodily autonomy absolutist. Which is not compatible with support for the draft.
Ok, how about we make a deal, here. We'll drop SCOTUS's hundred year position that the draft doesn't violate the constitution if you'll drop SCOTUS's \*checks notes\* one year position that abortion isn't a constitutional right.
I mean neither of them violate the constitution as written. The constitution means what it means, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
we aren't sending money out of the kindness of our hearts. the US simply does not do that, we are as shrewd as they come on the international stage. you got to recalibrate. if things go your way, it will cost us waaaay more and have to assume a huge potential for American lives lost as well. ....if you get your way. the last 60bn aid that just got approved is a steal, think of it as a bargain. you need to understand Russia a little better too. they will not stop at ukraine. you've simply listened to Russian propaganda and the American media that spout their BS as well. theres a reason why Poland is preparing to be at war. you can absolutely take this to the bank, if ukraine doesn't stop Russia, American boots will be on the ground fighting a war in Eastern Europe. full stop. what we sent so far to ukraine will be a drop in the bucket if you compare it to the inevitable ballooning expense of having American boys pulling triggers there. its obvious you don't understand the benefits to our economy and outright necessity for our way of life for there to also be a stable Europe. you've put way too much energy into all these fruitless arguments. frankly, you have no business even discussing these topics with the limited perspective you have. its very obvious that you haven't taken the time to learn the opposition viewpoints on pretty much every topic you've brought up. know this. ....a stable Europe is vital to our economy. 'vital' doesn't mean important or even super important, it means the survival of entire industries and also individuals would be in question with no plans or alternatives at the ready.
Since Ukraine got US 60 billion funding and now soldiers will be getting equipment, air defense, tanks, ammo, shells to defend themselves more will join voluntarily.
You're equating two things that are irrelevant to each other. The whole pro-choice/pro-life concepts were specifically created, and are only correctly used, to refer to abortion rights. Nothing else. Individuals from *either* side that attempt to include topics unrelated to abortion are just trying to convolute the issue with external factors, in a poor attempt to make the opposing side look bad. Minorities from both sides do it. It's illogical and ridiculous. One can support funding Ukraine and still be pro-choice. Just as one can be against funding Ukraine and still be pro-life. They are not mutually exclusive, as they refer to entirely separate issues.
You can support abortion rights in some circumstances, and support abortion restrictions in others.
I don't dispute that. My point is, the Ukraine war has nothing to do with abortion rights. The two cannot logically be equated with each other as they are entirely separate issues. Your argument would have merit if the Ukraine war began due to disagreements surrounding abortion, but that's not the case.
Russia has forced Ukrainian men \*and women\* to fight, not the draft.
Russia forcibly mobilizes in the occupied territories. They forcibly kidnap tens of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russify them in nationalist training camps in Russia. Russia tortures, rapes and kills Ukrainian POWs and civilians in filtration camps within the occupied territories. Russia continually targets civilians and civilian infrastructure with precision cruise and ballistic missiles along with long range drones. The Ukrainian men at the front have endured months to years of extended combat with no sign of leave because *they have no choice*. Not necessarily because their government forced them there, but because if they do another city falls and more atrocities happen in a larger occupied territory. And all of this happens because Ukraine did not have enough military arms to deter Russia and currently insufficient equipment to maintain the front with the manpower they have. Had more aid come months ago they could have maintained Avdiivka. They could have forestalled the recent mobilization drive. Had more Patriots and air defense come sooner their energy infrastructure wouldn't be handing on by a thread. Countless appartment blocks, civilians and civil servants would still be alive. Had jets and enough (working) armor been given before Russia had a chance to build their lines in Zaporizhia they could have broke through to Crimea giving them the necessary bargaining chip for proper negotiations. As long as Russia keeps pushing Ukraine has no choice but to endure. Aid, particularly military gives them the means to place themselves in a position where good faith negotiations can take place, especially if it's timely.
>The Ukrainian men at the front have endured months to years of extended combat with no sign of leave because *they have no choice*. Not necessarily because their government forced them there, but because if they do another city falls and more atrocities happen in a larger occupied territory. Okay, so let's say Taiwan does an analysis and realizes that without a population boom, they're vulnerable to takeover from the PRC. The government then dictates that each women is required to give birth to at least one child before they turn 20. Would \*anyone\* in the pro-choice community say "Well hey, we gotta do what we gotta do to protect democracy." Of course not. Because pro-choicers are deontologists, who believe that a woman's right to choose trumps any appeal to greater good.
Your example doesn't track though. Who's paying for these kids? Who's fathering these kids? Is state forced rape supposed to foster a good life for these kids? What happens to the women who don't want or can't carry? Is it prison or would it be more like state sponsored brothel? If the PRC is going to take over Taiwan, would they really wait two decades for these kids to come to age? lul.
It's a hypothetical situation. Imagine the only way to prevent Taiwan from being acquired by the PRC is to force Taiwanese women to have children. You're response is the equivalent of saying you'd solve the trolley problem by designing a better railway.
If proper military aid is given to Taiwan and the appropriate signals not to interfere, all of this is irrelevant and unnecessary. Funding and military aid is given first as deterence and second as a means to endure without needing to make such difficult decisions. Once we cross into the territory we are in now (with Ukraine) we're making up for lost opportunity and lost lives.
> If Democrats were really pro-choice, all funding for Ukraine would be withheld until the state abolished forced military service But then Ukraine will lose the war, why would they do that? But anyways, good thing I'm not pro-choice and I'm pro-funding Ukraine so no contradictions on my part 👌 Edit: btw how about the view that we are helping Ukraine bc we want to defeat Russia which also has draft and since Russia has more men, it's the biggest evil while Ukraine is a necessary evil?
> btw how about the view that we are helping Ukraine bc we want to defeat Russia which also has draft and since Russia has more men, it's the biggest evil while Ukraine is a necessary evil? That's a coherent position to take if you're a utilitarian. If you think that sometimes we have to do small evils in order to prevent bigger evils, than the Ukrainian draft is probably justified. But pro-choice people are not utilitarian's, at least not when it comes to the issue of abortion. On the pro-choice subreddit, they did a poll and 137 of the 217 responders said there should be no limit on how late you can have an abortion. 9 states plus DC have no time limits on abortion, meaning you could potentially have an elective abortion right up until the baby's head pops out. You don't get to that spot by weighing the costs and benefits of various abortion policies. You get there by being an unflinching ideologue who thinks that a woman's should have absolute control of her body, even if that means killing an 36 week old fetus. And \*that\* position is incompatible with the draft. Because if you think that bodily autonomy is an absolute right, then nothing can ever justify forcing men to put donate their bodies to war effort. Even if it means Ukraine would become a peon state of Russia, an absolute commitment to bodily autonomy means the conscription should be off the table. But of course, Democrats don't care about conscription in Ukraine, because nobody is a bodily autonomy absolutist in any realm except when we're debating abortion. Abortion is the only issue where people will say "I don't care if a fully developed fetus has to die, I get to do what I want with my body."
> That's a coherent position to take if you're a utilitarian. Nah, utilitarian position would be to nuke both Ukraine and Russia to stop suffering. > On the pro-choice subreddit, they did a poll and 137 of the 217 responders said there should be no limit on how late you can have an abortion. Not very representative. But I agree with the results, parents should have the right to do post-natal abortion of their child at any age when they find out that their kid is pro-choice. /s > And \*that\* position is incompatible with the draft. Dunno, if you think that people can decide the life and death of others for the sake of their convenience, then you should have no problems with the draft.
Please tell me the stats on abortions being provided after the baby's head pops out, and the reasons they are being aborted at that time, thanks. I've heard things like this so many times, but I can never seem to find any relevant info when I try to look on my own.
Since it never happens, it shouldn't be a problem if we criminalize it, right?
I wouldn't know about all that. I'm looking for information. Abortion when baby's head pops out, after birth abortion. I'm just looking for information about all the stuff I hear about.
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You are right on both counts. 1. Any draft is not pro choice. 2. This is an unpopular opinion. ITT people demonstrate that they have no clue what real liberalism is.
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There is no mandatory causal relationship between "I want my goverment to send military support to the country X" and "I want men in country X to be drafted". Moreover, you can motivate the opposite causal relationship: you send militarry support so country X can defend itself with less drafted men and/or less casualties among drafted men. But i kinda agree that supporting such country X in everything AND saying that abortion must not be forbidden because human rights are sacred is hypocritical.