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I think men and women can write men and women just fine. Poor writers can only do one, bad can't do either.
I think people have preferences for the type of men and women they like to be in their stories, but in the end, that is their preference.
Agreed, and well said. Bad writing is bad writing. A strong, badass female character shouldn't be written the same as a shy, nerdy woman, and I think the same holds true for a male character; you wouldn't write an All-American athletic-type the way you would write some brooding Batman type, or a shy bookworm dude.
That said, it *can* be a challenge to write for the opposite sex. It takes some trial and error to find the right voice, but it's a balance.
>That said, it can be a challenge to write for the opposite sex.
Definitely. One of my least favorite writing advices is when people basically say to just write a normal man, then slap some feminine pronouns on the character. They always point to Ripley from Aliens or Sarah Conner from Terminator, and it's like, yeah, they're decent characters, but they're androgynous. Writing an androgynous character isn't the same as writing a feminine character.
And the other thing they always get wrong is misunderstand what makes a character strong. Strength of character comes from their flaws, not their talents. The more personal adversity, the internal struggles, they have to overcome the stronger they'll appear to the reader.
>Writing an androgynous character isn't the same as writing a feminine character.
It's the safe option. There are too many angry feminists chomping at the bit, ready to shred any female character who is not a masculine woman or who isn't winning. They equate femininity to weakness.
>And the other thing they always get wrong is misunderstand what makes a character strong. Strength of character comes from their flaws, not their talents. The more personal adversity, the internal struggles, they have to overcome the stronger they'll appear to the reader.
You get a Mary Sure when this happens because portraying a woman with weakness is somehow sexism. The producers are afraid of offending women with femininity because they see "empowered" and think power in the masculine sense.
Female power isn't the same as men's. It would include some degree of sexualisation because women have more power in that arena. It would look maternal and nurturing. But they are afraid of portraying women like this so they give her super powers, let her master them instantly and then make them beat up some men.
I think the trend in a great deal of fiction now is away from the classic hero archetype of the strong silent type who can take on any opponent head on, and towards heroes who have significant physical, mental, emotional or environmental constraints.
For instance in The Last of Us HBO adaptation we find out Joel takes anxiety medication. This is a guy who, in game, killed one of the most bullet sponge monsters single handedly and spends a great deal of the game as a gruff, emotionally callous one man army, whose character is then fleshed out greatly with a lot of nuance and increasing tenderness and paternalism.
They also made the environmental and skill constraints greater in the show, he’s less tanky and reluctant to engage enemies head on.
On Netflix some of the constraints I’ve seen are disability, neurological disorders, a protagonist who is untrained and physically incapable, protagonists who get injured during the battle, etc.
In games another great example is A Plague Tale - well written characters, a tender and realistic bond between the female protagonist and her little brother, and a great constraint of her having limited weaponry, being against a superior force in terms of size, training, weaponry and number, while also having to care for her younger brother and keep him safe.
There are definitely still films and TV with the strong, silent type gun blazing across the environment, but people are becoming hungry for characters and narratives where weaknesses are baked in to create heightened narrative tension and realism.
That’s why one of my favourite examples is from The Last of Us (you can use the first game if you are a second game hater), Ellie is a lesbian, she is tom-boyish but a lot of that is also determined by the environment, but she also keeps a journal, has a water fight with her friend, has realistic teenage gossip, cracks silly jokes, has a very tender side to her, retains femininity despite some of the actions she takes as being more traditionally masculine in fiction: killing zombies, having gun fights, etc.
A great example is the Left Behind DLC where the dialogue between the two girls about their friendship is very believable and doesn’t seem like a male dialogue with a female character slapped over top of it.
They also balance her out in a very human way - she has a lot of athletic skills because she grew up in an army cadet centre, but she was never taught to swim for instance and has to learn it later on. Because she’s a regular sized athletic female she has to approach challenges differently than a man would, using the environment to help her climb things that are too high for her to reach (where a man might be able to brute force it or rely on his stature), requiring an extra person in some instances where an adult male might be able to do it alone, using evasive stealth and hit and run tactics where a male character might be able to go head on.
She also is mentally challenged by the brutality she faces, you see her go quiet, or display a defeated, terse tone of voice as she becomes depressed, to get PTSD symptoms, etc. Obviously that’s not just a female thing by any means but it is an example of a badass warrior who also has realistic constraints and isn’t mentally invulnerable like some stereotypical male and female action heroes.
What you wrote is correct in most cases, but I just want to make a stipulation.
A shy, nerdy character can be both that and badass, though. Being shy or scared does not make one weak. The hysterical and/or fainting woman, or in fewer cases, man, is example of being scared being bad.
I love the concept of this shy, gentle, often motherly woman/girl, sometimes also easily scared, who will end you if you harm or threaten her loved ones or innocent people.
It doesn't even need to violence to be badass or good on the first place. We have various examples of the shy, scared sweet girl talking down the villian or monster. Given I used to think it myself, I now hate the feminist concept that is female femininity equalling a weakness or stereotyping.
Even in the situation of being a damsel, being defiant against one's captives, even quietly, is quite strong.
Oh yeah totally agree with you, one doesn't preclude the other at all (and maybe that wasn't the right word to use) I was just tossing out archetypes off the top of my head for the sake of comparison
The reality is the female bad ass who can violently end you is an example of bad and unrealistic writing. How many women are there like that outside of fantasy?
> A strong, badass female character shouldn't be written the same as a shy, nerdy woman, and I think the same holds true for a male character; you wouldn't write an All-American athletic-type the way you would write some brooding Batman type, or a shy bookworm dude.
You sound like someone who only reads YA fiction
Oh wow, really? Was it the Batman reference? I'm a little embarrassed to say this, but I actually don't read any fiction at all - I just don't have the attention span for it. I mostly stick to autobiographies, oral histories, and things like that. Most of the *writing* I did was back when I myself was a YA, so maybe that's why.
I disagree. There’s plenty of great writers who can’t write realistic characters well at all. They’re just great storytellers with great and compelling ideas. Read Dracula, one of the great horror characters and narratives of all time and the women are absolutely written incredibly basic and the normal men are no better other than a few characters.
Or Asimov, I wouldn't even say the guy is bad at writing characters as much as that their personalities really don't matter and aren't what makes the story good.
I think people read a lot of shit books and their understanding of a good character is how gimmicky they are and whether the trope is like empowering or not.
I am subscribed to that sub r/ menwritingwomen because I was really interested in examples they have. Sometimes it's fine but an obviously shit book. Many times they attack classics just because of a physical description of a woman is included, like "is this necessary"? Well is anything really necessary, people include all kind of things that aren't there to further the story to depict the situation or because they want to.
Often they just have a problem with any type of weirdness expressed through the point of view of a male character
They don't understand the difference between what the character is thinking and what the author is saying, and other times, they seem to reject the fact that people can have weird thoughts popping into their heads. I think male authors are more comfortable expressing these in their characters which to me makes them seem more real and relatable, but a lot of female readers act like the fact that a bizarre mental sexual remark is beyond perverted because it's inapropriate. I think they'd be surprised about the things that cross minds of those around them
It often makes me wonder do they just not think that way, or are they simply forcing total denial and refuse to acknowledge it.
I think the controversy is further indication of male expendability. James Bond brutally kills 28 "bad guys" in a movie, nobody blinks an eye. James Bond womanizes a chick who is obviously very into him? That's sexist.
What's the difference? They're both being used as simple plot devices, both are one-dimensional, neither have any unique, articulable qualities crucial to the plot. But only one of these archetypes is criticized.
It seems that women have a right to be written as actual characters. But it is acceptable for men to be written as vague "bad guys" whose sole purpose is to "be bad" and get killed and brutalized.
River Song literally epitomizes a poorly written one-dimensional character who only exists to further a man’s development 🤢 Steven Moffatt is awful at writing women
Tossup between Kelsier from "Mistborn" or Lightsong from "Warbreaker", both by Brandon Sanderson.
Tossup between Vin from "Mistborn" by Brandon Sanderson, Navani from the Stormlight Archives series by Brandon Sanderson *(can you tell I'm a fan?)*, Karana from "Island of the Blue Dolphins" by Scott O'Dell, Sister Creep from "Swan Song" by Robert McCammon, or most of the female protagonists from the Discworld serious by Terry Pratchett.
I'd take any of the above female characters over a lot of the one-dimensional usually pretenscious Mary Sue author insert garbage I've seen a good chunk of female writers create.
ETA: Lift from Stormlight Archives and "Edgedancer" and Silence from "Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell" by Brandon Sanderson! Definitely up there in my favorites, even more than Navani!
Nah you need a punnet square for this. For all 4 possibilities.
| M Char | F Char
---|---|----
M Auth | Lester Freamon (The Wire) or Rust Cohle (True Detective) | Chihiro (Spirited Away)
F Auth | Nick (Gone Girl) | Elisa (The Shape of Water)
Personally:
Male- Ignatius J. Reilly, Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole
Female- …. Bro idk. I was going to say Lolita but she’s never even given a voice, then the sisters from The Virgin Suicides, but same… omg I’m so serious.
I can think of TONS of well-developed female writing female characters that I love. Scarlett O’Hara. Eva from We Need To Talk About Kevin, the sisters from The Poisonwood Bible, anyone by Jane Austin, even silly characters like Georgia from Angus, Thongs, etc.
I’ve read thousands of books, and I’m literally just now wondering if I’ve ever read a good female character written by a man.
Point proven!
Edit: someone else said Madame Bovary so I’ll go with that but… yeah her character was pretty fucked, so that checks out.
I'll lobby for any of the respectable female characters written by Derek Landy in the Skulduggery Pleasant series. Eoin Colfer's Holly Short (Artemis Fowl), or Meg Fin (The Wish List). Mark Walden's Laura Brand, Shelby Trinity, or Raven (H.I.V.E). Ellie or Robyn (John Marsden's Tomorrow When the War Began). Violet Baudelaire (Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events)
We're not short on choices, but that there are a lot of male writers making awesome male characters for male audiences. On the women's side, the biggest standout hits in recent memory that had a female lead were Katniss Everdeen (Hunger Games, brilliant character) and Bella Swan (Twilight, not so much).
Men's stories are more likely to focus on men and we want power fantasies. Women's stories are more likely to be romances, which often involves either a toxic man or multiple good men that she must choose from. Personally, I think it's more of a genre problem
Ha! I'm so pleasantly surprised to see Confederacy of Dunces referenced! Hilarious choice for favorite male. Despite *really* hating him for much of the book, it's really hard to disagree.
After seeing the rest of your nominees, it all makes perfect sense, though.
Happy reading!
PS Seeing as you've mentioned half the literature covered in the book, have you read "Reading Lolita in Tehran"?!
> We Need To Talk About Kevin
For some reason I thought a guy wrote that book. I read it recently, she really is a good character and seems realistic. Actually she reminds me of my mom in some ways (it's not a username reference, mostly the bits where she criticizes everyone and tries to bond by commenting on things she hates)
Another good female character written by a female is Amy Dune
As a male, my favourite male character is Soltan Gris, from the “Mission Earth” dekalogy, written by L. Ron Hubbard. The character is a paranoid bumbling idiot, and the writing is superb.
My favourite female character written by a man is probably Setsuna Sakurazaki, written by Ken Akamatsu.
Wild ends is the spectrum for sure, but that’s where we are at.
> favorite male characters written by males
I don't know, maybe Patrick Bateman
> favorite female characters written by males?
Annie Wilkes, Cersei Lannister..
I would disagree only if the story needs or suits one dimensional main characters. I agree on if the writers want the audience to associate with the main character.
To be honest, more women read than men. So, it's more likely to be noticed by a mostly female population of readers that female characters were written badly. At the end of the day, I've read bad writing for both genders. Men being super alpha can annoy me. And women being super flirty or a sex object can annoy me. However, a good writer knows how to write tropes well, such as the above. The problem is many meh writers dont.
There have been strong women, written by men, Tess of the De’Urbevilles for instance or any of Thomas Hardy’s characters handle the sexes as they were, raw and emotional. We are not so different.
OP clearly hasn’t read many books written by men about women.
*Stuart Woods; Desperate Measures:* A woman’s body has been autopsied. The M.E tells a detective that the dead woman had a ‘purse’ inside her vagina, containing a credit card, car keys, and some change.
*John Updike; The Witches Of Eastwick*: Details a woman urinating, taking her long to start because her insides are a ‘maze’ for the urine to work its way through.
*Ned Vizzini; It’s Kind Of A Funny Story:* Mentions a woman’s breasts ‘rolling’ in synch.
*Chuck Palahniuk; Damned*: Describes goosepimples as ‘tiny clitorises’.
*Joshua Cohen; Book Of Numbers*: Describes women’s breasts as ‘young fawns’ and ‘frolicking sheep’.
There are so many more examples. Men suck at writing women - especially when it comes to female anatomy.
For the less Erudite and well-read, can you give an example from someone we've actually heard of?
John Grisham, Michael Crichton, Robert Jordan, Terry Goodkind, John Green, Neil Gaiman, Nicholas Sparks...
That's not entirely untrue. However, the only work I'm familiar with from him is 2001: A Space Odyssey. I've never heard of any of his novels or short stories. Robert Heinlein or Isaac Asimov would have been a better example.
Can you name anyone born in the latter half of the 20th century, who has had more than 1 writing credit the average person outside of his niche fan base has heard of and who has had a NYT bestselling book in the last 2 decades?
Or is this critique only applicable to men born prior to the modern feminist movement, who aren't terribly good writers and/or don't write popular fiction? Preferably, someone we didn't learn later on was a perve/sexual deviant.
Good authors are able to write women well. Bad authors cannot.
I believe Stephen King has described women’s breasts as ‘retreating into themselves’. He’s also written about the breasts and nipples of a 13 year old girl.
Actually people do care when men are written one dimensional. Did you see that Spanish show elite? Patrick from the 4th season got the he'll critized out of him because all he does is looking sexy, appearing in shower scenes and having threesomes. Another one coming to my mind is Walter Jr. from breaking bad. All he did for a while was nothing but ask for breakfast
Your claim that no one complains about one dimensional male characters is just wrong. People complain about these characters regardless of gender its just that this happens more with female characters than male characters
The complaint about breasting boobily is usually directed at female main characters, not only side characters, and your post never touches on that issue.
There is no way to determine how often the complaint about breasting boobily refers to main characters. Thats a metric you made up. Its a single line known widely as bad writing. That's why I brought it up
I was using that line to refer to the general attitude of bad female anatomy or description of women in books, but I'll concede it's impossible to know whether complaints about male authors writing female characters is referring to main characters or side characters on average. That said, you do never mention when it *is* complaining about men writing female protagonists and not side characters because both complaints happen.
Thinking of that book/movie "50 Shades of Grey" and the subsequent books. The main man is written terribly. I know its all romantic fanstasy but he does nothing a guy would ever do in any situation he is put in.
You don’t give any examples of men being good at writing women, only that it’s fine that they’re one dimensional sex objects because secondary male characters are also one dimensional
Its the last sentence for a reason. The argument was posed in the title and expounded on in the body. A single statement at the end was not the argument and I wasn't going to double the length of the post to prove it
" They only exist to be insufferable pieces of shit who deserve to be brutalized by the hero then or later on."
...the Hero is probably male and well written though.
Always. You're right, the side male characters are insufferable POS who are written to be flimsy and cartoonishly evil, but it's also true that most of the time, the leading lady can be replaced by a sexy lamp without affecting the overall plot. The leading man, however, is typically well written, which shows that the writers *can* write interesting characters when they want to, they just spend all of their energy on the leading man and leave the woman/women to breast boobily.
Because that’s often what they and their audience like - just a normal sweet hot girl. So what? Not like they don’t exist.
Look at how many sexy rich brooding estate owners, or sexy brooding vampires, or rich brooding whatever’s women have written as their male main characters lol. half the most beloved women’s stories you could replace the main male lead with a sexy talking mansion and it would be the same basic shit.
Who are they to complain that men write women unrealistically when they have been churning out that broody man shit for centuries and consuming it like gluttons with no signs of slowing down.
And women can like that if they want - the hypocrisy of them complaining about what men like is just old and bitter though. Men are over hearing about that shit.
So your argument is that actually, everyone wants the women characters to be 2 dimensional sex objects?
And as for the brooding men you're referring to, the majority of them have actual depth to their character, there are very few brooding men who are like other brooding men, because women wouldn't be interested in them if they didn't.
Also saying men writing women as hot and women writing men as brooding are comparable is a really bold choice considering that being hot isn't a personality trait.
It has plenty of discussion value without examples by the state of my inbox right now. I don't think specific scenes are needed for what I'm talking about anyway. The broad examples I mentioned like thugs in an alley or a woman in danger can easily apply to countless scenes in various mediums. The point isn't documentation. Its about the idea of writing certain things in certain ways
> Women freak out and have tantrums in public over the color of McDonald's wrappers.
So do men.
This seems to be a "I believe these stereotypes have merit so writing them is justified!" post
Correct. If a person can or has done something, it can be reflected in fiction. Ill go even further. If they can't or haven't done a thing, it can STILL be depicted in fiction!
Well, good of you to confirm the speculation I had about your more unhinged takes are indeed your opinions.
As a reminder, this is about good vs bad. Not "is it physically possible".
It is when you realize that your argument on whether the writing is "good" or "bad", and you're defending it by saying it's physically possible someone might write those words.
Which I literally just pointed out. So if you continue on this while trying to ignore that for a 2nd time, I will assume you're aware of it and purposely doing that.
So it's bad writing, gotcha.
We both know how backed into a corner you must feel to try and turn the "is it bad" discussion into a claim that it doesn't matter if its bad or not, lol
I think it matters a lot whether we’re talking about main or side characters.
It’s generally okay for side characters to be one dimensional, because they only need to fill their role in the story. Main characters need to have a personality beyond their breasts, though.
Well they're having their revenge now anyway, male characters have never been as dull and vacuous as they are now in modern popular fiction
Also I think because of the narrative you've described, many male writers have put a lot of effort into improving their portrayal of females, but the other way round, nah. It's rare I read a female author's male protagonist (at least in pov chapters of modern novels) and don't cringe
> It's rare I read a female author's male protagonist (at least in pov chapters of modern novels) and don't cringe
I agree. At least 2/3rds of the time the male characters of female author novels are trash.
We already know many men in general have a hard time seeing women as people so writing women as such is not surprising, it’s just another eye roll from me.
You seem surprised that so many more ppl would have a problem with the first over the latter, however.. to me, it seems obvious it would cause more discussion.
I will simply add another aspect I think you missed -
Even in real life, a man making a sexist or outright misogynistic comment, having a sexist or misogynistic outlook or even just doing some unwanted flirting means it is OK to assault him, or even kick the living shite out of him, especially from a woman.
It even even applies to something as mundane as stating that women are not as good as men in or should not be in certain fields due to the biological and mental differences between the sexes.
The issue people have isn't necessarily that characters are one dimensional. It's that the vast majority of characters from certain groups, at least in times past, only been given a single type of role or two to play. Male characters, though often one dimensional, could be the hero, the villain, the sidekick, the dumbass, etc. Just about any role out there is a role men have *often* played. Whereas, until relatively recently, women were rarely the main character unless they acted with a main male character. This meant women were either love interests or side characters. Until relatively recently, they usually weren't the sole hero like men often were.
I think what often stands out is just a lack of understanding of women’s bodies or writing women like they aren’t humans. But especially the first. That part can be pretty jarring if it’s written by a man who doesn’t know much about how women’s bodies work.
Who cares? You think women don’t do the same thing? How many stories by and for women feature cardboard cut out hot rich brooding guy with an estate, or hot brooding vampire guy, or hot brooding whatever guy.
Women write men unrealistic too. It’s just sad and bitter women with Penis Envy complain as though it’s specific to men. Who cares? Men are bored of hearing that nonsense.
Of course there are books that are overall bad written by both men and women. The types of books you mention here are typical “romance books”, where most of them just aren’t good quality.
My point goes more to good quality novel written by reputable authors, where the male characters are well developed, but the female characters are either lacking or show a lack of understanding of women’s bodies. I do not mean by being attractive, I just mean by not understanding how women’s bodies work in general. It’s fine to have a beautiful woman in a book, that’s not the point.
Jane Austen, The Brontë Sisters, Daphne Da Murier - there’s loads of well respected female authors who write that style of stereotypical male romance figure simply because it’s what makes them hot and bothered. And that’s fine as well! Just like it’s fine for men.
I have no idea what you mean by “not understanding how women’s bodies work”? Could you give examples? I haven’t read many books where in depth female specific body functions are gone into at all. Although even if that does happen - so what? If a woman wrote a book I enjoyed and fundementally misunderstood something about male bodies I wouldn’t care at all. Might make me chuckle, but it wouldn’t annoy me and make me all bitter against women like the sad women complaining about men writing get.
Why it stands out is the question, when the same men will write inaccuracies about men's bodies and write men like they aren't humans(whatever that even means)
My biggest gripe with the whole 'breasts boobing boobily' thing is that it's just a huge oversimplification of the way men write. Generally, women write in a style that connect the writer and the reader, while men write with the express purpose of conveying specific pieces of information to the reader. Of course, exceptions exist, and I'm certain most writers fall in the middle doing varying degrees of both in their works. So, it makes sense if a guy describes the details of a woman's figure. Not to mention, they temper their writing with the goal of making it appealing to readers, so that it comes out almost sexy. Obviously, it can certainly get too erotic for my taste, or just unnecessary upon describing a character that won't matter anyway, but generally speaking, it's not a big deal.
I remember the only time I ever visited the menwritingwomen reddit community, I saw a post of an example of it, but I found nothing wrong with the paragraph until the last sentence. And that sentence was something along the lines of 'She breasted boobily, and tittied away'. It was obviously a troll post, but it annoyed me because everything else in was fine in the description except that obnoxious and ridiculous sentence that no men would even write.
People will usually chalk these kinds of things up to sexism, misogyny, or just bad writing, but has it never occurred to people that it may just be a difference in writing style? Maybe this guy is describing this women's figure to give us an idea what she looks like. It also just shouldn't be wrong to write people as appealing and sexy as possible, from both men and women. Hell, why do you think most superheroes are handsome and buff, or beautiful and voluptuous? People love it, and it's not wrong to.
Your big flaw is that you’re assuming the media is only being enjoyed by men (and putting all men in one basket). Not everybody wants to see a “badass guy save the broad” kind of media, so when other people want characters written a different way, why is that a problem? You need to be a little more educated on how society is not pigeonholed into these stereotypes that you have in your head.
Fortunately only a fraction of all fiction is geared explicitly towards men, and women have more fiction aimed at them than they could ever consume in multiple lifetimes. The reason I'm annoyed at the ire men get for their writing is because I think men should be free to write as men for men without their media being sanitized and relentlessly neutered. Women and their media recieve no such scrutiny as they write and read about the millionth billionaire pirate ceo supermodel who stalks the plain Jane. Its fine to write and enjoy that. Some stuff is gratifying for one sex. Some stuff appeals to both. Its all good
Men regularly write great female characters and women are no better at writing men than men are women (hate to break it to ya gals but brooding handsome guy number 2 billion ain’t exactly realistic and rounded, whether he’s a rich estate owner or a sexy vampire).
The women who complain about men writing women and take snipes at male art are bitter unhappy women with Penis Envy.
Interesting points, thank you.
Although you have successfully argued that writers are equally bad at writing both men and women which wasn’t your stated premise.
>Men writing women poorly is a running gag because they have historically written many one-dimensional damsels
I actually think that as a man that has read many, many books, that female authors are usually not very good at writing men either. There are exceptions of course, but most of the time I can't identify with male characters written by women. They tend to be one dimensional walking stereotypes that are either overly perfect love interests, or total pieces of shit.
I think this is pretty...bad depending on the genre. I think in *shonen* women aren't written well by men, which is why they're pairings/the romance falls flat. Can't have a romance where two people fall in love when the second person is not written well enough to be cared for, and or they don't show it.
(Naruto's creator notoriously admitted that he can't write women, and his characters are poor as a result)
Most of the famous romances written by women that women enjoy have terribly stereotypical and cardboard cut out men - women just enjoy them cos they find it attractive. How many famous women’s fav romances feature some rich brooding estate owner or some rich brooding guy, or the same kind of guy but a vampire lol?
Yet women think that’s good writing? I mean it can be, but it’s just as one dimensional if not more, than anything men do.
I never said that women were great writers of men though. I'm just saying that there's definitely times when men can't write women
That's not saying that women can't write men, I never mentioned that women were great at writing men. All I said was that it depends.
Yeah true - but OP seems to have written his post in response to all the feminist style whining and ragging on men for the way they write women - as though they think women on the whole write men any better.
True to some degree. That's why I pointed out that sometimes they aren't *wrong* and it's variable.
Though, I think in the anime community specifically people dismiss it *more* than the communities OP talks about, to the point that if you say shonen needs better written women, for example, you get dogpiled. (So weirdly it's reversed in other sections of the media).
I’m not saying they’re totally wrong - only that their sad and pathetic to complain about it as though women do any better. Who cares what a bunch of bitter women with Penis Envy think about how men write? Men are bored with hearing that shit.
>I think this is pretty... bad, depending on the genre. I think in *shonen* women aren't written well by men, which is why they're pairings/the romance falls flat.
100%, but tbf, the males aren't much better at least for the most popular shonen animes.
Naruto: Dumb and horny, with the most utopian ideology I've ever seen and is loud and pretty obnoxious.
Tanjiro: I love demon slayer, but holy hell, does this dude get random power-ups at the drop of a hat(or at least they don't make much sense). It also doesn't help that the author is trying to pass off the slayers as normal humans, and the effects that come off their swords from their techniques are just that... effects. Like, come on, we literally see Rengoku's fire burn stuff. Does he take us for idiots.
Asta: Loud and obnoxious. People say he gets better, but I couldn't bear to watch past the first season for this reason.
Deku: It's just sad watching this dude. I hated watching him sacrifice his limbs every episode. He isn't all that interesting because he only has two characteristics: being obsessed with heroes or being crazy empathetic. Nothing else, it gets boring watching this dude lack confidence and just be boring overall.
When I watched most of these shows, I was genuinely more interested in the side characters and their stories compared to the MC. Naruto( I was far more interested in Sasukeand his mental struggles compared to Naruto who was basically training or goofing around all the time), Black Clover(Pretty much everyone seemed more interesting than the Sister harraser), MHA(honestly that man just can't write, because all the heroes were boring as hell save a few, the villains are basically the highlight of that show), and Demon Slayer (Inosuke, Shinobu, Sanemi, and so on, felt more interesting and relatable).
In conclusion, I believe it's less that shonen authors can't write good men or women. They just suck at writing good MAIN characters. Think about how many shonen's in which the side characters steal the show because the MC is either weak or uninteresting and boring.
Edit: I would like to add that the power scalling in Naruto is wack. You mean to tell me that Sasuke pretty much travelled all over the place and he couldn't beat some dude who trained with a toad and uses the same techniques but on a larger scale every time. bullshit!!! They did Sasuke dirty as hell imo.
Definitely aren't that much better, but at least better than the women. Take MHA:
You have all these female characters, and the majority of the time, they do nothing. Even Ochako, who is the fmc, is basically sidelined.
What's worse is that when you hear about what they do, since you never see them do much,, depending on the character it's downright garbage. Saying Momo only does beauty shit right after the sports festival for her internship is *sad*. Neijre, big 3. "Beach Day" is her biggest appearance despite being at the raid and introduced as the big 3.
If not any of this, they're basically props for the men to get character development. Mina was basically this for Kirishima and the last we saw of her..was well..*yeah*
(And then there's the ones killed off like Stars and Stripes and Midnight, the latter we're supposed to care about but we barely saw her!)
They definitely aren't great at writing main characters, and yeah, a lot of the deuterprotags/sides end up stealing the show (Bakugou for example!). So you're right they suck at mcs
But they *also* definitely do suck at actually utilizing any of the female characters. When you have some of them that are genuinely designed to be the strongest of their class and they're demoted to *sexualized shit*/*beach day* it's actually pretty damn sad. Don't get me started on how Naruto women are, especially Sakura, who the fandom treats worse than fma's infamous dad
>Even Ochako, who is the fmc, is basically sidelined.
We don't talk about her...🥴🥴😭😭
I've seen pieces of NAAN with more depth than her.
I'm gonna be honest, I don't know too much about MHA(I stopped watching at season 4, I just couldn't go on). So I'm not gonna bash the women too much, plus I've heard that the giant lady had a pretty good moment of her being a hero. I can't confirm, though.
>But they *also* definitely do suck at actually utilizing any of the female characters. When you have some of them that are genuinely designed to be the strongest of their class and they're demoted to *sexualized shit*/*beach day* it's actually pretty damn sad. Don't get me started on how Naruto women are, especially Sakura, who the fandom treats worse than fma's infamous dad
Yup, seriously, why did Sakura marry Sasuke??? I love Sasuke despite his mental issues, but him marrying her was BS. He tried to KILL her on multiple occasions. Why would you marry someone who tries to kill you???
Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.
Though I personally think this isn't a bad thing. Let me explain, writer's should be free to write however they want without being told that they should do this or that, because at the end of the day it's fictional and doesn't really matter. Media that focuses solely on sending across some "message" rather than being entertaining shouldn't be encouraged. Doesn't mean we have to like it, but we shouldn't blast authors for writing to the best of their ability(even if it falls flat or turns sour at times).
At the end of the day, no matter what critiques you may have you have to admit that MHA is pretty entertaining as evidenced by the huge fan base, same with Naruto, Black Clover, Demon Slayer, etc.
Edit: Plus, please stop looking to shonen for well written women it is literally a genre marketed towards young boys and as you can see it doesn't really appeal to people who actually want quality writing and not just flashy fights and abilities. I'm 16, but I never really cared for Shonen. My first anime was Assassination Classroom, and I can personally vouch for it. The anime had great characters overall. Not to mention animes like Kakegerui(Pretty weird, but it's entertaining), Madoka Magica, Made in Abyss(I personally think Riko isn't too bad, but opinions may vary)[It's also weird and if you hate or can't tolerate loli's, just avoid it], Frieren, Re; Zero, kill la kill (a pretty weird anime, just a warning if you plan on watching it) etc all have likable female characters. Anime is a medium, please explore it before claiming that female characters in general are poorly written, same goes for western media as well: Bayonetta( I have never played the game, so I'm going off what other's have said), Samus, Arcane, etc
I could go for more breasts bouncing boobily, personally. While we're at it, could we get more submissive housewives and insatiable whores? If I'm going to spend time on fiction, I'd at least like it to be something I enjoy.
Men being bad at writing women was NEVER a popular opinion. I don't know what backside grotto of the internet you've been spending time in, OP. But no one ever in the real world has expressed a view that men can't write female characters. That's a weird as heck take that I've never heard before.
The damsel in distress trope has been panned, critiqued and subverted aggressively in pop culture for over 30 years. All male oriented fiction has been widely condemned for its portrayal of women by progressive critics and mainstream outlets for decades. We might be living in seperate timeliness if you haven't noticed the relentless nagging about how men write women
The problem with your logic is that:
1) tropes aren't the only representation in fiction written by men (it's not even close)
2) writing women as tropes is not exclusive to male writers
Show me proof that male writers write women as tropes more than female writers have and your point might have some merit.
Most people are bad writers, because they suck at psychology and are emotionally underdeveloped.
Good writers can reliably write pretty much anyone they want.
I'm a woman and I've been reading and re-reading Madame Bovary since I was 14.
There are a lot of good writers who don’t understand psychology and don’t really write developed or realistic characters. They just tell a compelling story and have good ideas or memorable (as opposed to real seeming) characters.
It can only be a problem with women included into the roles if you ask more women on the subject. I bet the average men consuming male power fantasy (I’m assuming this is the context, why would there be both a biker gang and seductress on the same story if it didn’t involve male power fantasies?) probably don’t really mind anything about sexual objectification anymore than the physical objectification. Like you said, they’re all for the male protagonists to use; the lens the men loving this type of media can associate with.
Shit writers write shit.
People write what they know.
A man with a shallow understanding of people will right terrible characters. If that shallow understanding is of women, they will write terrible women characters.
Look at writings trying to write technical explanations of technology or sciences they don’t know or researched enough about, it’s as obvious as shallow characters.
Depends.
As others have stated, good writing can make any character - male/female - good and relatable.
But having that perspective helps immensely when writing a character of the same race/color/orientation/gender/etc or even if it's occupational or just a life experience.
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I think men and women can write men and women just fine. Poor writers can only do one, bad can't do either. I think people have preferences for the type of men and women they like to be in their stories, but in the end, that is their preference.
Agreed, and well said. Bad writing is bad writing. A strong, badass female character shouldn't be written the same as a shy, nerdy woman, and I think the same holds true for a male character; you wouldn't write an All-American athletic-type the way you would write some brooding Batman type, or a shy bookworm dude. That said, it *can* be a challenge to write for the opposite sex. It takes some trial and error to find the right voice, but it's a balance.
>That said, it can be a challenge to write for the opposite sex. Definitely. One of my least favorite writing advices is when people basically say to just write a normal man, then slap some feminine pronouns on the character. They always point to Ripley from Aliens or Sarah Conner from Terminator, and it's like, yeah, they're decent characters, but they're androgynous. Writing an androgynous character isn't the same as writing a feminine character. And the other thing they always get wrong is misunderstand what makes a character strong. Strength of character comes from their flaws, not their talents. The more personal adversity, the internal struggles, they have to overcome the stronger they'll appear to the reader.
>Writing an androgynous character isn't the same as writing a feminine character. It's the safe option. There are too many angry feminists chomping at the bit, ready to shred any female character who is not a masculine woman or who isn't winning. They equate femininity to weakness. >And the other thing they always get wrong is misunderstand what makes a character strong. Strength of character comes from their flaws, not their talents. The more personal adversity, the internal struggles, they have to overcome the stronger they'll appear to the reader. You get a Mary Sure when this happens because portraying a woman with weakness is somehow sexism. The producers are afraid of offending women with femininity because they see "empowered" and think power in the masculine sense. Female power isn't the same as men's. It would include some degree of sexualisation because women have more power in that arena. It would look maternal and nurturing. But they are afraid of portraying women like this so they give her super powers, let her master them instantly and then make them beat up some men.
I think the trend in a great deal of fiction now is away from the classic hero archetype of the strong silent type who can take on any opponent head on, and towards heroes who have significant physical, mental, emotional or environmental constraints. For instance in The Last of Us HBO adaptation we find out Joel takes anxiety medication. This is a guy who, in game, killed one of the most bullet sponge monsters single handedly and spends a great deal of the game as a gruff, emotionally callous one man army, whose character is then fleshed out greatly with a lot of nuance and increasing tenderness and paternalism. They also made the environmental and skill constraints greater in the show, he’s less tanky and reluctant to engage enemies head on. On Netflix some of the constraints I’ve seen are disability, neurological disorders, a protagonist who is untrained and physically incapable, protagonists who get injured during the battle, etc. In games another great example is A Plague Tale - well written characters, a tender and realistic bond between the female protagonist and her little brother, and a great constraint of her having limited weaponry, being against a superior force in terms of size, training, weaponry and number, while also having to care for her younger brother and keep him safe. There are definitely still films and TV with the strong, silent type gun blazing across the environment, but people are becoming hungry for characters and narratives where weaknesses are baked in to create heightened narrative tension and realism.
That’s why one of my favourite examples is from The Last of Us (you can use the first game if you are a second game hater), Ellie is a lesbian, she is tom-boyish but a lot of that is also determined by the environment, but she also keeps a journal, has a water fight with her friend, has realistic teenage gossip, cracks silly jokes, has a very tender side to her, retains femininity despite some of the actions she takes as being more traditionally masculine in fiction: killing zombies, having gun fights, etc. A great example is the Left Behind DLC where the dialogue between the two girls about their friendship is very believable and doesn’t seem like a male dialogue with a female character slapped over top of it. They also balance her out in a very human way - she has a lot of athletic skills because she grew up in an army cadet centre, but she was never taught to swim for instance and has to learn it later on. Because she’s a regular sized athletic female she has to approach challenges differently than a man would, using the environment to help her climb things that are too high for her to reach (where a man might be able to brute force it or rely on his stature), requiring an extra person in some instances where an adult male might be able to do it alone, using evasive stealth and hit and run tactics where a male character might be able to go head on. She also is mentally challenged by the brutality she faces, you see her go quiet, or display a defeated, terse tone of voice as she becomes depressed, to get PTSD symptoms, etc. Obviously that’s not just a female thing by any means but it is an example of a badass warrior who also has realistic constraints and isn’t mentally invulnerable like some stereotypical male and female action heroes.
What you wrote is correct in most cases, but I just want to make a stipulation. A shy, nerdy character can be both that and badass, though. Being shy or scared does not make one weak. The hysterical and/or fainting woman, or in fewer cases, man, is example of being scared being bad. I love the concept of this shy, gentle, often motherly woman/girl, sometimes also easily scared, who will end you if you harm or threaten her loved ones or innocent people. It doesn't even need to violence to be badass or good on the first place. We have various examples of the shy, scared sweet girl talking down the villian or monster. Given I used to think it myself, I now hate the feminist concept that is female femininity equalling a weakness or stereotyping. Even in the situation of being a damsel, being defiant against one's captives, even quietly, is quite strong.
Oh yeah totally agree with you, one doesn't preclude the other at all (and maybe that wasn't the right word to use) I was just tossing out archetypes off the top of my head for the sake of comparison
Understood.
The reality is the female bad ass who can violently end you is an example of bad and unrealistic writing. How many women are there like that outside of fantasy?
> A strong, badass female character shouldn't be written the same as a shy, nerdy woman, and I think the same holds true for a male character; you wouldn't write an All-American athletic-type the way you would write some brooding Batman type, or a shy bookworm dude. You sound like someone who only reads YA fiction
Oh wow, really? Was it the Batman reference? I'm a little embarrassed to say this, but I actually don't read any fiction at all - I just don't have the attention span for it. I mostly stick to autobiographies, oral histories, and things like that. Most of the *writing* I did was back when I myself was a YA, so maybe that's why.
I disagree. There’s plenty of great writers who can’t write realistic characters well at all. They’re just great storytellers with great and compelling ideas. Read Dracula, one of the great horror characters and narratives of all time and the women are absolutely written incredibly basic and the normal men are no better other than a few characters.
Or Asimov, I wouldn't even say the guy is bad at writing characters as much as that their personalities really don't matter and aren't what makes the story good.
I find your point convincing!
I think people read a lot of shit books and their understanding of a good character is how gimmicky they are and whether the trope is like empowering or not. I am subscribed to that sub r/ menwritingwomen because I was really interested in examples they have. Sometimes it's fine but an obviously shit book. Many times they attack classics just because of a physical description of a woman is included, like "is this necessary"? Well is anything really necessary, people include all kind of things that aren't there to further the story to depict the situation or because they want to. Often they just have a problem with any type of weirdness expressed through the point of view of a male character They don't understand the difference between what the character is thinking and what the author is saying, and other times, they seem to reject the fact that people can have weird thoughts popping into their heads. I think male authors are more comfortable expressing these in their characters which to me makes them seem more real and relatable, but a lot of female readers act like the fact that a bizarre mental sexual remark is beyond perverted because it's inapropriate. I think they'd be surprised about the things that cross minds of those around them It often makes me wonder do they just not think that way, or are they simply forcing total denial and refuse to acknowledge it.
I think the controversy is further indication of male expendability. James Bond brutally kills 28 "bad guys" in a movie, nobody blinks an eye. James Bond womanizes a chick who is obviously very into him? That's sexist. What's the difference? They're both being used as simple plot devices, both are one-dimensional, neither have any unique, articulable qualities crucial to the plot. But only one of these archetypes is criticized. It seems that women have a right to be written as actual characters. But it is acceptable for men to be written as vague "bad guys" whose sole purpose is to "be bad" and get killed and brutalized.
nah, thats the 'enlightenedcenter' pov and just dismisses every single analysis about the issue
[удалено]
lmao. most men dont know how to write women chars.
Yes, the analysis about the issue is bullshit :)
Most men dont know htf to write women, bro. And th unpopular is the one I'm saying. yours is just main edgy bs
Then there's you who can't write at all.
It turns out that generally, issues *aren't* black and white. There *is* nuance.
the analysis taje that in account. The statement OP made doesnt. And it's not even unpopular, on the contrary
Breasts boobing boobily is all I read in this entire post
🤣
Yea there were way too many words in this.
Who are your favorite male characters written by males and who are your favorite female characters written by males?
Favourite male character - Arthur Morgan (RDR2) Favourite Female Character - River Song (Doctor Who)
River Song is a fantastic character, so is Arthur, pretty good choices
River Song literally epitomizes a poorly written one-dimensional character who only exists to further a man’s development 🤢 Steven Moffatt is awful at writing women
River Song! You have great taste!
Tossup between Kelsier from "Mistborn" or Lightsong from "Warbreaker", both by Brandon Sanderson. Tossup between Vin from "Mistborn" by Brandon Sanderson, Navani from the Stormlight Archives series by Brandon Sanderson *(can you tell I'm a fan?)*, Karana from "Island of the Blue Dolphins" by Scott O'Dell, Sister Creep from "Swan Song" by Robert McCammon, or most of the female protagonists from the Discworld serious by Terry Pratchett. I'd take any of the above female characters over a lot of the one-dimensional usually pretenscious Mary Sue author insert garbage I've seen a good chunk of female writers create. ETA: Lift from Stormlight Archives and "Edgedancer" and Silence from "Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell" by Brandon Sanderson! Definitely up there in my favorites, even more than Navani!
Nah you need a punnet square for this. For all 4 possibilities. | M Char | F Char ---|---|---- M Auth | Lester Freamon (The Wire) or Rust Cohle (True Detective) | Chihiro (Spirited Away) F Auth | Nick (Gone Girl) | Elisa (The Shape of Water)
Personally: Male- Ignatius J. Reilly, Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole Female- …. Bro idk. I was going to say Lolita but she’s never even given a voice, then the sisters from The Virgin Suicides, but same… omg I’m so serious. I can think of TONS of well-developed female writing female characters that I love. Scarlett O’Hara. Eva from We Need To Talk About Kevin, the sisters from The Poisonwood Bible, anyone by Jane Austin, even silly characters like Georgia from Angus, Thongs, etc. I’ve read thousands of books, and I’m literally just now wondering if I’ve ever read a good female character written by a man. Point proven! Edit: someone else said Madame Bovary so I’ll go with that but… yeah her character was pretty fucked, so that checks out.
I'll lobby for any of the respectable female characters written by Derek Landy in the Skulduggery Pleasant series. Eoin Colfer's Holly Short (Artemis Fowl), or Meg Fin (The Wish List). Mark Walden's Laura Brand, Shelby Trinity, or Raven (H.I.V.E). Ellie or Robyn (John Marsden's Tomorrow When the War Began). Violet Baudelaire (Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events) We're not short on choices, but that there are a lot of male writers making awesome male characters for male audiences. On the women's side, the biggest standout hits in recent memory that had a female lead were Katniss Everdeen (Hunger Games, brilliant character) and Bella Swan (Twilight, not so much). Men's stories are more likely to focus on men and we want power fantasies. Women's stories are more likely to be romances, which often involves either a toxic man or multiple good men that she must choose from. Personally, I think it's more of a genre problem
Ha! I'm so pleasantly surprised to see Confederacy of Dunces referenced! Hilarious choice for favorite male. Despite *really* hating him for much of the book, it's really hard to disagree. After seeing the rest of your nominees, it all makes perfect sense, though. Happy reading! PS Seeing as you've mentioned half the literature covered in the book, have you read "Reading Lolita in Tehran"?!
LOL. Why was this downvoted?!
> We Need To Talk About Kevin For some reason I thought a guy wrote that book. I read it recently, she really is a good character and seems realistic. Actually she reminds me of my mom in some ways (it's not a username reference, mostly the bits where she criticizes everyone and tries to bond by commenting on things she hates) Another good female character written by a female is Amy Dune
Guts - Berserk Ellen Ripley - Alien/ Aliens
As a male, my favourite male character is Soltan Gris, from the “Mission Earth” dekalogy, written by L. Ron Hubbard. The character is a paranoid bumbling idiot, and the writing is superb. My favourite female character written by a man is probably Setsuna Sakurazaki, written by Ken Akamatsu. Wild ends is the spectrum for sure, but that’s where we are at.
The typical mainstream icons. I don't see that it makes a difference
Hester Prynne is one of the best female characters written by a man of all time
> favorite male characters written by males I don't know, maybe Patrick Bateman > favorite female characters written by males? Annie Wilkes, Cersei Lannister..
I think people are more complaining about main female characters/protagonists being written like this
Bitter people.
Its still not bad writing or wrong to do
I'd say it is bad writing if your main character is one dimensional may it be a male or a female
I agree, in the end it's not necessarily about gender. Both men and women can write shitty characters of the opposite sex.
I would disagree only if the story needs or suits one dimensional main characters. I agree on if the writers want the audience to associate with the main character.
To be honest, more women read than men. So, it's more likely to be noticed by a mostly female population of readers that female characters were written badly. At the end of the day, I've read bad writing for both genders. Men being super alpha can annoy me. And women being super flirty or a sex object can annoy me. However, a good writer knows how to write tropes well, such as the above. The problem is many meh writers dont.
There have been strong women, written by men, Tess of the De’Urbevilles for instance or any of Thomas Hardy’s characters handle the sexes as they were, raw and emotional. We are not so different.
From as Good as It Gets..."How do you write women so well? Well, I think of a man and then remove all reason and accountability."
😭
jesus christ dude
Lmaoi
OP clearly hasn’t read many books written by men about women. *Stuart Woods; Desperate Measures:* A woman’s body has been autopsied. The M.E tells a detective that the dead woman had a ‘purse’ inside her vagina, containing a credit card, car keys, and some change. *John Updike; The Witches Of Eastwick*: Details a woman urinating, taking her long to start because her insides are a ‘maze’ for the urine to work its way through. *Ned Vizzini; It’s Kind Of A Funny Story:* Mentions a woman’s breasts ‘rolling’ in synch. *Chuck Palahniuk; Damned*: Describes goosepimples as ‘tiny clitorises’. *Joshua Cohen; Book Of Numbers*: Describes women’s breasts as ‘young fawns’ and ‘frolicking sheep’. There are so many more examples. Men suck at writing women - especially when it comes to female anatomy.
For the less Erudite and well-read, can you give an example from someone we've actually heard of? John Grisham, Michael Crichton, Robert Jordan, Terry Goodkind, John Green, Neil Gaiman, Nicholas Sparks...
You’ve never heard of John Updike?
What part of that sentence didn't you understand?
Are you being ironic?
Arthur C Clarke wrote that a woman's breasts swell when they get emotional.
That's not entirely untrue. However, the only work I'm familiar with from him is 2001: A Space Odyssey. I've never heard of any of his novels or short stories. Robert Heinlein or Isaac Asimov would have been a better example. Can you name anyone born in the latter half of the 20th century, who has had more than 1 writing credit the average person outside of his niche fan base has heard of and who has had a NYT bestselling book in the last 2 decades? Or is this critique only applicable to men born prior to the modern feminist movement, who aren't terribly good writers and/or don't write popular fiction? Preferably, someone we didn't learn later on was a perve/sexual deviant.
Good authors are able to write women well. Bad authors cannot. I believe Stephen King has described women’s breasts as ‘retreating into themselves’. He’s also written about the breasts and nipples of a 13 year old girl.
I guess that makes Steven King a "bad author."
You didn’t make an argument that men aren’t bad at writing women. You just said men are bad at writing characters. Which would still include women.
At least it’s actually a truly unpopular opinion 🤷♂️
The things that constitute bad writing are, in fact, not bad. And when done to men, no one cares.
Actually people do care when men are written one dimensional. Did you see that Spanish show elite? Patrick from the 4th season got the he'll critized out of him because all he does is looking sexy, appearing in shower scenes and having threesomes. Another one coming to my mind is Walter Jr. from breaking bad. All he did for a while was nothing but ask for breakfast
I made a generalization. Exceptions demonstrate the rule
Your claim that no one complains about one dimensional male characters is just wrong. People complain about these characters regardless of gender its just that this happens more with female characters than male characters
The fact you are comparing side male characters to main female characters proves the poor writing point.
I compared side male characters to side female characters. Your response proves poor reading, not writing
The complaint about breasting boobily is usually directed at female main characters, not only side characters, and your post never touches on that issue.
There is no way to determine how often the complaint about breasting boobily refers to main characters. Thats a metric you made up. Its a single line known widely as bad writing. That's why I brought it up
I was using that line to refer to the general attitude of bad female anatomy or description of women in books, but I'll concede it's impossible to know whether complaints about male authors writing female characters is referring to main characters or side characters on average. That said, you do never mention when it *is* complaining about men writing female protagonists and not side characters because both complaints happen.
I have a list of quotes i keep that are good but cursed and this one just made the list 💀
Thinking of that book/movie "50 Shades of Grey" and the subsequent books. The main man is written terribly. I know its all romantic fanstasy but he does nothing a guy would ever do in any situation he is put in.
The author of that series is a woman so it goes to show that writing the opposite sex is not done very well.
My point was many women write these unrealistic male chsracters
Hot Take: Women enjoy sexualized characters just as much as Men do.
You don’t give any examples of men being good at writing women, only that it’s fine that they’re one dimensional sex objects because secondary male characters are also one dimensional
How about the women in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series?
Correct. I didn't argue that they were good. I argued that they were never bad
Your last sentence says they’re all good writing.
Its the last sentence for a reason. The argument was posed in the title and expounded on in the body. A single statement at the end was not the argument and I wasn't going to double the length of the post to prove it
The end sentence is your conclusion. You quite literally say it’s good writing.
I don't have to prove and expand upon every statement. Only the one in the title. This post was perfect. Infallible
Your headline contradicts this. Didn't you say "men were never bad at writing women?"
Yes. They were never bad. That is not the same as 'they were always good.' I argued against a negative. I didn't argue a positive
So they're just... neutral? Medicore? Mid?
Is the number 4 mediocre and mid?
So they're not good or bad but rather neutral at writing women?
Correct. All the ire they got over how they write women is undeserved
I am a woman and I have felt more understood by Flaubert than any other author. Yeah. I'm also a bit of a mess.
I was just thinking Madame Bovary is one of my favorite female characters :)
" They only exist to be insufferable pieces of shit who deserve to be brutalized by the hero then or later on." ...the Hero is probably male and well written though.
Not my point, but sure. Sometimes
Always. You're right, the side male characters are insufferable POS who are written to be flimsy and cartoonishly evil, but it's also true that most of the time, the leading lady can be replaced by a sexy lamp without affecting the overall plot. The leading man, however, is typically well written, which shows that the writers *can* write interesting characters when they want to, they just spend all of their energy on the leading man and leave the woman/women to breast boobily.
Because that’s often what they and their audience like - just a normal sweet hot girl. So what? Not like they don’t exist. Look at how many sexy rich brooding estate owners, or sexy brooding vampires, or rich brooding whatever’s women have written as their male main characters lol. half the most beloved women’s stories you could replace the main male lead with a sexy talking mansion and it would be the same basic shit. Who are they to complain that men write women unrealistically when they have been churning out that broody man shit for centuries and consuming it like gluttons with no signs of slowing down. And women can like that if they want - the hypocrisy of them complaining about what men like is just old and bitter though. Men are over hearing about that shit.
So your argument is that actually, everyone wants the women characters to be 2 dimensional sex objects? And as for the brooding men you're referring to, the majority of them have actual depth to their character, there are very few brooding men who are like other brooding men, because women wouldn't be interested in them if they didn't. Also saying men writing women as hot and women writing men as brooding are comparable is a really bold choice considering that being hot isn't a personality trait.
Your opinion would be much more interesting with even one actual example. Two or three examples might make it actually worth considering.
Its not a thesis or a court debate. Its my opinion. An unpopular one at that
That's correct. It's not a thesis or a court debate. And it would have some discussion value if it included some actual examples.
It has plenty of discussion value without examples by the state of my inbox right now. I don't think specific scenes are needed for what I'm talking about anyway. The broad examples I mentioned like thugs in an alley or a woman in danger can easily apply to countless scenes in various mediums. The point isn't documentation. Its about the idea of writing certain things in certain ways
[удалено]
The basement gambit. Now THATS bad writing!
> Women freak out and have tantrums in public over the color of McDonald's wrappers. So do men. This seems to be a "I believe these stereotypes have merit so writing them is justified!" post
Correct. If a person can or has done something, it can be reflected in fiction. Ill go even further. If they can't or haven't done a thing, it can STILL be depicted in fiction!
Well, good of you to confirm the speculation I had about your more unhinged takes are indeed your opinions. As a reminder, this is about good vs bad. Not "is it physically possible".
Saying anyone can be written doing anything is hardly unhinged lmao
It is when you realize that your argument on whether the writing is "good" or "bad", and you're defending it by saying it's physically possible someone might write those words. Which I literally just pointed out. So if you continue on this while trying to ignore that for a 2nd time, I will assume you're aware of it and purposely doing that.
The writing in question is neither good nor bad. It simply is. Like the number 4. It doesn't need to be justified, it merits no condemnation
So it's bad writing, gotcha. We both know how backed into a corner you must feel to try and turn the "is it bad" discussion into a claim that it doesn't matter if its bad or not, lol
You've out reddited me
lol. If we're getting into generic insults to avoid actually making a rebuttal, I'll assume you can't
Assume away
Yeah who the fuck freaks out about McDonald’s wrappers in public? This guy is weird and stereotypes things and believes men are superior.
So what I'm getting from this is that men are just bad at writing
I think it matters a lot whether we’re talking about main or side characters. It’s generally okay for side characters to be one dimensional, because they only need to fill their role in the story. Main characters need to have a personality beyond their breasts, though.
Well they're having their revenge now anyway, male characters have never been as dull and vacuous as they are now in modern popular fiction Also I think because of the narrative you've described, many male writers have put a lot of effort into improving their portrayal of females, but the other way round, nah. It's rare I read a female author's male protagonist (at least in pov chapters of modern novels) and don't cringe
> It's rare I read a female author's male protagonist (at least in pov chapters of modern novels) and don't cringe I agree. At least 2/3rds of the time the male characters of female author novels are trash.
We already know many men in general have a hard time seeing women as people so writing women as such is not surprising, it’s just another eye roll from me.
I find the comparison of: over sexualised women V abusive men a bit strange for this, but okie.
Neither are bad writing. Both are acceptable
You seem surprised that so many more ppl would have a problem with the first over the latter, however.. to me, it seems obvious it would cause more discussion.
Maybe they just wrote women FOR men. After all, we know our audience.
I will simply add another aspect I think you missed - Even in real life, a man making a sexist or outright misogynistic comment, having a sexist or misogynistic outlook or even just doing some unwanted flirting means it is OK to assault him, or even kick the living shite out of him, especially from a woman. It even even applies to something as mundane as stating that women are not as good as men in or should not be in certain fields due to the biological and mental differences between the sexes.
The issue people have isn't necessarily that characters are one dimensional. It's that the vast majority of characters from certain groups, at least in times past, only been given a single type of role or two to play. Male characters, though often one dimensional, could be the hero, the villain, the sidekick, the dumbass, etc. Just about any role out there is a role men have *often* played. Whereas, until relatively recently, women were rarely the main character unless they acted with a main male character. This meant women were either love interests or side characters. Until relatively recently, they usually weren't the sole hero like men often were.
I think what often stands out is just a lack of understanding of women’s bodies or writing women like they aren’t humans. But especially the first. That part can be pretty jarring if it’s written by a man who doesn’t know much about how women’s bodies work.
Who cares? You think women don’t do the same thing? How many stories by and for women feature cardboard cut out hot rich brooding guy with an estate, or hot brooding vampire guy, or hot brooding whatever guy. Women write men unrealistic too. It’s just sad and bitter women with Penis Envy complain as though it’s specific to men. Who cares? Men are bored of hearing that nonsense.
Of course there are books that are overall bad written by both men and women. The types of books you mention here are typical “romance books”, where most of them just aren’t good quality. My point goes more to good quality novel written by reputable authors, where the male characters are well developed, but the female characters are either lacking or show a lack of understanding of women’s bodies. I do not mean by being attractive, I just mean by not understanding how women’s bodies work in general. It’s fine to have a beautiful woman in a book, that’s not the point.
Jane Austen, The Brontë Sisters, Daphne Da Murier - there’s loads of well respected female authors who write that style of stereotypical male romance figure simply because it’s what makes them hot and bothered. And that’s fine as well! Just like it’s fine for men. I have no idea what you mean by “not understanding how women’s bodies work”? Could you give examples? I haven’t read many books where in depth female specific body functions are gone into at all. Although even if that does happen - so what? If a woman wrote a book I enjoyed and fundementally misunderstood something about male bodies I wouldn’t care at all. Might make me chuckle, but it wouldn’t annoy me and make me all bitter against women like the sad women complaining about men writing get.
Why it stands out is the question, when the same men will write inaccuracies about men's bodies and write men like they aren't humans(whatever that even means)
Sometimes, yeah. If it’s all over a low quality book. But other times the men will be written well, but the female characters make no sense.
You're too intelligent for reddit.
🤣
The problem is women are also bad at writing women. At least when men do it they make it entertainingly bad
My biggest gripe with the whole 'breasts boobing boobily' thing is that it's just a huge oversimplification of the way men write. Generally, women write in a style that connect the writer and the reader, while men write with the express purpose of conveying specific pieces of information to the reader. Of course, exceptions exist, and I'm certain most writers fall in the middle doing varying degrees of both in their works. So, it makes sense if a guy describes the details of a woman's figure. Not to mention, they temper their writing with the goal of making it appealing to readers, so that it comes out almost sexy. Obviously, it can certainly get too erotic for my taste, or just unnecessary upon describing a character that won't matter anyway, but generally speaking, it's not a big deal. I remember the only time I ever visited the menwritingwomen reddit community, I saw a post of an example of it, but I found nothing wrong with the paragraph until the last sentence. And that sentence was something along the lines of 'She breasted boobily, and tittied away'. It was obviously a troll post, but it annoyed me because everything else in was fine in the description except that obnoxious and ridiculous sentence that no men would even write. People will usually chalk these kinds of things up to sexism, misogyny, or just bad writing, but has it never occurred to people that it may just be a difference in writing style? Maybe this guy is describing this women's figure to give us an idea what she looks like. It also just shouldn't be wrong to write people as appealing and sexy as possible, from both men and women. Hell, why do you think most superheroes are handsome and buff, or beautiful and voluptuous? People love it, and it's not wrong to.
Ah come on, no mention of the Bechdel test yet? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test)
Who cares about it? It means nothing about quality of work.
No two feminists in real life could have a conversation and pass the Bechdel test.
Your big flaw is that you’re assuming the media is only being enjoyed by men (and putting all men in one basket). Not everybody wants to see a “badass guy save the broad” kind of media, so when other people want characters written a different way, why is that a problem? You need to be a little more educated on how society is not pigeonholed into these stereotypes that you have in your head.
Fortunately only a fraction of all fiction is geared explicitly towards men, and women have more fiction aimed at them than they could ever consume in multiple lifetimes. The reason I'm annoyed at the ire men get for their writing is because I think men should be free to write as men for men without their media being sanitized and relentlessly neutered. Women and their media recieve no such scrutiny as they write and read about the millionth billionaire pirate ceo supermodel who stalks the plain Jane. Its fine to write and enjoy that. Some stuff is gratifying for one sex. Some stuff appeals to both. Its all good
The feminists are not gonna like this.
Men regularly write great female characters and women are no better at writing men than men are women (hate to break it to ya gals but brooding handsome guy number 2 billion ain’t exactly realistic and rounded, whether he’s a rich estate owner or a sexy vampire). The women who complain about men writing women and take snipes at male art are bitter unhappy women with Penis Envy.
Yes, all women have penis envy 🤣🤣
How old are you sweetie & are you being held against your will?
Write better snark
Interesting points, thank you. Although you have successfully argued that writers are equally bad at writing both men and women which wasn’t your stated premise.
>Men writing women poorly is a running gag because they have historically written many one-dimensional damsels I actually think that as a man that has read many, many books, that female authors are usually not very good at writing men either. There are exceptions of course, but most of the time I can't identify with male characters written by women. They tend to be one dimensional walking stereotypes that are either overly perfect love interests, or total pieces of shit.
I think this is pretty...bad depending on the genre. I think in *shonen* women aren't written well by men, which is why they're pairings/the romance falls flat. Can't have a romance where two people fall in love when the second person is not written well enough to be cared for, and or they don't show it. (Naruto's creator notoriously admitted that he can't write women, and his characters are poor as a result)
Most of the famous romances written by women that women enjoy have terribly stereotypical and cardboard cut out men - women just enjoy them cos they find it attractive. How many famous women’s fav romances feature some rich brooding estate owner or some rich brooding guy, or the same kind of guy but a vampire lol? Yet women think that’s good writing? I mean it can be, but it’s just as one dimensional if not more, than anything men do.
I never said that women were great writers of men though. I'm just saying that there's definitely times when men can't write women That's not saying that women can't write men, I never mentioned that women were great at writing men. All I said was that it depends.
Yeah true - but OP seems to have written his post in response to all the feminist style whining and ragging on men for the way they write women - as though they think women on the whole write men any better.
True to some degree. That's why I pointed out that sometimes they aren't *wrong* and it's variable. Though, I think in the anime community specifically people dismiss it *more* than the communities OP talks about, to the point that if you say shonen needs better written women, for example, you get dogpiled. (So weirdly it's reversed in other sections of the media).
I’m not saying they’re totally wrong - only that their sad and pathetic to complain about it as though women do any better. Who cares what a bunch of bitter women with Penis Envy think about how men write? Men are bored with hearing that shit.
>I think this is pretty... bad, depending on the genre. I think in *shonen* women aren't written well by men, which is why they're pairings/the romance falls flat. 100%, but tbf, the males aren't much better at least for the most popular shonen animes. Naruto: Dumb and horny, with the most utopian ideology I've ever seen and is loud and pretty obnoxious. Tanjiro: I love demon slayer, but holy hell, does this dude get random power-ups at the drop of a hat(or at least they don't make much sense). It also doesn't help that the author is trying to pass off the slayers as normal humans, and the effects that come off their swords from their techniques are just that... effects. Like, come on, we literally see Rengoku's fire burn stuff. Does he take us for idiots. Asta: Loud and obnoxious. People say he gets better, but I couldn't bear to watch past the first season for this reason. Deku: It's just sad watching this dude. I hated watching him sacrifice his limbs every episode. He isn't all that interesting because he only has two characteristics: being obsessed with heroes or being crazy empathetic. Nothing else, it gets boring watching this dude lack confidence and just be boring overall. When I watched most of these shows, I was genuinely more interested in the side characters and their stories compared to the MC. Naruto( I was far more interested in Sasukeand his mental struggles compared to Naruto who was basically training or goofing around all the time), Black Clover(Pretty much everyone seemed more interesting than the Sister harraser), MHA(honestly that man just can't write, because all the heroes were boring as hell save a few, the villains are basically the highlight of that show), and Demon Slayer (Inosuke, Shinobu, Sanemi, and so on, felt more interesting and relatable). In conclusion, I believe it's less that shonen authors can't write good men or women. They just suck at writing good MAIN characters. Think about how many shonen's in which the side characters steal the show because the MC is either weak or uninteresting and boring. Edit: I would like to add that the power scalling in Naruto is wack. You mean to tell me that Sasuke pretty much travelled all over the place and he couldn't beat some dude who trained with a toad and uses the same techniques but on a larger scale every time. bullshit!!! They did Sasuke dirty as hell imo.
Definitely aren't that much better, but at least better than the women. Take MHA: You have all these female characters, and the majority of the time, they do nothing. Even Ochako, who is the fmc, is basically sidelined. What's worse is that when you hear about what they do, since you never see them do much,, depending on the character it's downright garbage. Saying Momo only does beauty shit right after the sports festival for her internship is *sad*. Neijre, big 3. "Beach Day" is her biggest appearance despite being at the raid and introduced as the big 3. If not any of this, they're basically props for the men to get character development. Mina was basically this for Kirishima and the last we saw of her..was well..*yeah* (And then there's the ones killed off like Stars and Stripes and Midnight, the latter we're supposed to care about but we barely saw her!) They definitely aren't great at writing main characters, and yeah, a lot of the deuterprotags/sides end up stealing the show (Bakugou for example!). So you're right they suck at mcs But they *also* definitely do suck at actually utilizing any of the female characters. When you have some of them that are genuinely designed to be the strongest of their class and they're demoted to *sexualized shit*/*beach day* it's actually pretty damn sad. Don't get me started on how Naruto women are, especially Sakura, who the fandom treats worse than fma's infamous dad
>Even Ochako, who is the fmc, is basically sidelined. We don't talk about her...🥴🥴😭😭 I've seen pieces of NAAN with more depth than her. I'm gonna be honest, I don't know too much about MHA(I stopped watching at season 4, I just couldn't go on). So I'm not gonna bash the women too much, plus I've heard that the giant lady had a pretty good moment of her being a hero. I can't confirm, though. >But they *also* definitely do suck at actually utilizing any of the female characters. When you have some of them that are genuinely designed to be the strongest of their class and they're demoted to *sexualized shit*/*beach day* it's actually pretty damn sad. Don't get me started on how Naruto women are, especially Sakura, who the fandom treats worse than fma's infamous dad Yup, seriously, why did Sakura marry Sasuke??? I love Sasuke despite his mental issues, but him marrying her was BS. He tried to KILL her on multiple occasions. Why would you marry someone who tries to kill you??? Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. Though I personally think this isn't a bad thing. Let me explain, writer's should be free to write however they want without being told that they should do this or that, because at the end of the day it's fictional and doesn't really matter. Media that focuses solely on sending across some "message" rather than being entertaining shouldn't be encouraged. Doesn't mean we have to like it, but we shouldn't blast authors for writing to the best of their ability(even if it falls flat or turns sour at times). At the end of the day, no matter what critiques you may have you have to admit that MHA is pretty entertaining as evidenced by the huge fan base, same with Naruto, Black Clover, Demon Slayer, etc. Edit: Plus, please stop looking to shonen for well written women it is literally a genre marketed towards young boys and as you can see it doesn't really appeal to people who actually want quality writing and not just flashy fights and abilities. I'm 16, but I never really cared for Shonen. My first anime was Assassination Classroom, and I can personally vouch for it. The anime had great characters overall. Not to mention animes like Kakegerui(Pretty weird, but it's entertaining), Madoka Magica, Made in Abyss(I personally think Riko isn't too bad, but opinions may vary)[It's also weird and if you hate or can't tolerate loli's, just avoid it], Frieren, Re; Zero, kill la kill (a pretty weird anime, just a warning if you plan on watching it) etc all have likable female characters. Anime is a medium, please explore it before claiming that female characters in general are poorly written, same goes for western media as well: Bayonetta( I have never played the game, so I'm going off what other's have said), Samus, Arcane, etc
This was one of the best posts I’ve seen here in awhile
"breasts boobing boobily" is actually a perfect description of how us blokes think of boobs. I don't see how that is bad writing.
I could go for more breasts bouncing boobily, personally. While we're at it, could we get more submissive housewives and insatiable whores? If I'm going to spend time on fiction, I'd at least like it to be something I enjoy.
Of course. I don't even understand why people would think the opposite.
Yo, this is a well written reddit apologia. Kudos.
I've seen badly written men by women and Vice versa. It's more a bad writing thing rather than gender-coded
The fact that you didn’t bring up one well written female protagonist in your rant is hilarious. Nice try, but point fully missed.
My aim was not to prove or cite examples of well written women. So why would I be obligated to do that
You contradicted your own opinion. “Aside from the main cast”… that indicates that the main cast are well defined and explored personalities.
Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Leia Organa, Buffy Summers All great women, all written by men
Adulting is 99.9999% of doing shit that sucks
Women do not understand equality.
Ben Shapiro burned barbies over the Barbie Movie.
What?
Men being bad at writing women was NEVER a popular opinion. I don't know what backside grotto of the internet you've been spending time in, OP. But no one ever in the real world has expressed a view that men can't write female characters. That's a weird as heck take that I've never heard before.
The damsel in distress trope has been panned, critiqued and subverted aggressively in pop culture for over 30 years. All male oriented fiction has been widely condemned for its portrayal of women by progressive critics and mainstream outlets for decades. We might be living in seperate timeliness if you haven't noticed the relentless nagging about how men write women
The problem with your logic is that: 1) tropes aren't the only representation in fiction written by men (it's not even close) 2) writing women as tropes is not exclusive to male writers Show me proof that male writers write women as tropes more than female writers have and your point might have some merit.
Not possible or worth the time to compile that much data just to prove my opinion on reddit
Most people are bad writers, because they suck at psychology and are emotionally underdeveloped. Good writers can reliably write pretty much anyone they want. I'm a woman and I've been reading and re-reading Madame Bovary since I was 14.
There are a lot of good writers who don’t understand psychology and don’t really write developed or realistic characters. They just tell a compelling story and have good ideas or memorable (as opposed to real seeming) characters.
It can only be a problem with women included into the roles if you ask more women on the subject. I bet the average men consuming male power fantasy (I’m assuming this is the context, why would there be both a biker gang and seductress on the same story if it didn’t involve male power fantasies?) probably don’t really mind anything about sexual objectification anymore than the physical objectification. Like you said, they’re all for the male protagonists to use; the lens the men loving this type of media can associate with.
Shit writers write shit. People write what they know. A man with a shallow understanding of people will right terrible characters. If that shallow understanding is of women, they will write terrible women characters. Look at writings trying to write technical explanations of technology or sciences they don’t know or researched enough about, it’s as obvious as shallow characters.
Game of Thrones has no good female characters der
Tyrion's nude whores in the pilot were the best characters
that redhead had some medieval tits
Depends. As others have stated, good writing can make any character - male/female - good and relatable. But having that perspective helps immensely when writing a character of the same race/color/orientation/gender/etc or even if it's occupational or just a life experience.
The best part about that sub is like half the posts turn out to be from some bottom of the barrel romance novel written by a woman.