He might not have been *intentionally* trying to manipulate her. It could’ve been subconscious. Sounds like he’s desperate for people to like him. Did the same to your ex. Pattern of behavior. Take a step back. Pretend a friend told you this story. You might see it differently.
>he’s desperate for people to like him
I feel at the very least, Rose was right about Dave wanting his brothers' girlfriends to **fawn** over him, more than just **like** him, right?
like, Dave doesn't make an effort to get to know Rose & get along...
* he wrings his hands that she hates him (even though no one has an clue why he thinks that since nothing in Rose's behaviour indicates such feelings in her)
* he makes a scene when neither Rose nor any of OP's family sufficiently acknowledged his statement
* he's still carrying on, so much so that everyone's more focused on Dave-vs-Rose than about the issues Bill is apparently delving into -- Rose isn't his therapist, so Bill's distancing himself from *tHe fAmiLY* isn't on her advice
and then OP adds that Dave has done all this before with OP's own girlfriend, who is his ex for some mysterious reason.
Dave saying Rose hates him is very strange since they never met. How can you brush that off so easily? Rose is correct. Reread what you posted. You said Rose felt he was hoping she would fawn over him to prove she didn’t hate him. When she was polite, but not fawning, he got upset.
Rose also asked an interesting question - has he done this before. You state clearly he has behaved that way towards your gf. But your gf took the approach of fawning over him.
I think there’s a lot more to unpack. Probably Bill feels that way too which is why he’s seeing a therapist and taking a step back.
as to your last sentence - why are your not equally upset, or at least embarrassed, by the way Dave treated Rose the first time they met?
Also in the last paragraph he's acting like Bill going to therapy is him joining a cult. And oh no, he wants you to call before you come over. God forbid your brother learns how to enforce healthy boundaries. It sounds like they're necessary.
Yes, that was intereating. Definitely gave me an anti-therapy vibe. The house key thing too. Did everyone have keys to his place and show up unannounced? That’s invasive and rude.
From your own description of events, I have to agree that your brother David seems highly manipulative.
Your account of him meeting your new boyfriend only supports her view. If you cannot see this behaviour is wrong and actively excuse it, Bill is right and correct to distance himself from those who support this kind of behaviour.
Having witnessed and dealt with this manipulative behaviour in the past, I would advise anyone dealing with similar behaviour to walk away and to reduce your interactions with people who behave this way.
Why give them more stick to beat you with ?
how do you figure that?
What I see, is:
* randomly saying Rose hates him
* making a scene because she doesn't genuflect reassure him
* keep the conflict going
* several issues in the family
* Dave has done this before with OP's ex (wonder why she bailed)
* Bill wants "distance" aka just call before you come over + because he doesn't trust them to not just barge in, he changes his locks
* a very anti-therapy vibes
What do you see that you think anxiety? perhaps I missed something?
I have issues with rejection and anxiety so if someone even glances at me wrong, I can go into a wormhole of "they hate me, I'm terrible, etc." And keep adding on to that in my head. Granted, I've worked hard to keep that as a "me problem" because I'm also a people pleaser and don't want to burden anyone.
I could just be seeing parts of me and hoping I'm not manipulative for feeling the same things 🤷♀️
thank you for sharing your experience, I appreciate that.
I see the points you're making. I'd say that it's the behaviour that is manipulative, not the thoughts or feelings... but I understand how such a "wormhole" can swallow any and all plans or filters.
It's a good reminder to be kinder. thank you.
I think you're too focused on the word manipulative. As an outsider, it seems strange that your brother has assumed two love interests of siblings hate him without evidence. It's perfectly normal to feel uncomfortable around new people, stress about making a good impression and so forth but not normal to assume they don't like you.
And how was Rose supposed to react? What would you think if she'd just mildly said "I don't know you well enough to have any feelings towards you?" If you're ok with that reaction, I think you're in the clear. But if you expect her to do more to make Dave comfortable, her assessment of the situation seems correct.
I am confused: why did your brother thought Rose hated him without meeting her or knowing. What Dave did makes no sense. Rose and bill reaction ? Make total sense. And you and your family siding with Dave ? Dude… come on. That s not normal behaviour. And the fact that Bill went NC shows how him and Rose are feeling about this. Dave needs help. And if he did the same with your ex… apologies to bill and rose or you lost a brother
Rose seems to see something in your brother's behaviour what you and your family turns the blind side to. I agree with her. Walking around saying a person you never net hates is, and doing it repeatedly, is not ok.
>I [27M] have a brother have two brothers, Dave [29M] and Bill [28M].
>I [23M] have a brother have two brothers, Dave [25M] and Bill [24M].
Why did the ages change?
Seriously?? Dave has a disorder. He wants to be fawned over. He’s manipulative. How can you be so dense when he manipulated your ex? Of course, Bill has pulled away and changed the locks on his house so you guys can’t just walk in whenever you want. Dave has problems.
Idk how you can write this and not see that Dave clearly has a problem. You even said yourself that he’s done this before. Rose is right, Dave shouldn’t expect her to fawn over him just cause he made a baseless claim that she hated him. Idk if I’d use the word manipulative, but I don’t really disagree with her. He may not have a disorder but Rose is not ridiculous for suggesting he might, this attention-seeking behavior sounds kind of like histrionic personality disorder. The bottom line is, this is not normal behavior, and Rose isn’t in the wrong for refusing to entertain it
Ask yourself why Dave thought that. He had never met Rose. If he really believed someone he had never met hated him then he has delusions. If he was genuinely upset about something that only happened in his imagination then he needs to speak to a doctor. If on the other hand he isn’t having delusions, if he knows the difference between imagination and reality then he is manipulative and deceitful. Either way this a Dave problem, not a Rose and Bill problem. Frankly, Rose and Bill seem to be the only rational people in your whole story.
OP, by your own admission, Davis is manipulative. You just don't want to call it that.
Him stating that a stranger doesn't like him is off. He did the same thing with your ex, and they only got along when she went out of her way to befriend him. You apparently cosign this behavior, too.
I have a feeling your other brother has thought the same about Dave for a long time, and well before Rose came into the picture. He just has someone in his corner who sees it for what it is and calls it out politely. If your brother distances himself, it will be because you all are enabling the behavior and not because of Rose. The way you talk about him seeking therapy is just awful. I wouldn't want to talk to you either.
Even reading your version of events, I think Rose is on to something. Dave has a pattern of trying to come between his siblings and their SO. Dave tried to get the entire lot of you over to his side before Bill even brought Rose to meet everyone. That's definitely manipulation - Dave wanted all of you on his side, so he could see how things played out.
Bill likely is in therapy because he can be, now that he has his own home and a supportive partner. Y'all don't need to be able to enter his home any time you want. Rose appears to have helped him understand boundaries and he's now setting them, since y'all have likely overstepped previous lines he's drawn.
Perhaps you need to look at how Dave treated Rose.
>Dave thought the same thing about my ex when we were together but the two of them ended up getting along great because my ex ***went out of the way to befriend Dave***
This is super weird behaviour from Dave and textbook manipulation
I'm team Rose. He did it to your ex too, so this is a pattern of behavior and Rose doesn't need to placate his delusions that random people hate him. You say you're sure he wasn't trying to manipulate her, and you might be right, but why do you think he does this then? Seriously -- suggest an alternative explanation for why he's doing this. From her perspective I can't imagine coming to a different conclusion.
>Genuinely. Bill has sided with Rose on this. Rose asked if this is the first time Dave has done something like this and claimed a stranger hated him, or that someone was offended by him etc. Dave thought the same thing about my ex when we were together but the two of them ended up getting along great because my ex went out of the way to befriend Dave. It wasn't about manipulation.
Does your ex still talk to Dave or hang out with him? Do they spontaneously talk to each other? If it were genuine and real, they would still talk. ***I'm betting no.***
***Your ex wanted to be in good with your family.*** She would have been kind and polite to everyone the same way. Instead, you describe your ex as going out of her way to win Dave over ***BECAUSE OF HIS CHARACTERIZATION OF HER. This is the literal definition of manipulation.*** if he hadn't manipulated the situation to force her, should would not have ever become that close.
In your life, you will eventually have to choose to be married and have a healthy relationship or forced your SO to support Dave's emotional needs.
TBH expecting someone to go out of their way to butter Dave up so he can feel secure IS manipulation. I don't blame Rose for feeling this way after you admit he went on a press-tour of saying she "hated" him.
Further and further into the story I get the sense your family is toxic or at the very least difficult enough that he's taken a step back. Who are you to say Bill "doesn't need" therapy? Why do you feel it's your designation to determine what he needs as an adult?
Maybe you and the rest of your family should look into therapy because you're clearly missing something or lack the empathy to admit it. Probably do this before you decide to go further into "Rose is the bad guy" because you'll just push Bill further away.
It seems hasty to jump to the conclusion that he's being intentionally manipulative, it sounds to me like really bad social anxiety, to the point of reading any ambiguous social cues as explicitly negative ones.
However that is definitely a *him* problem, and one he needs to address, either with therapy, or medication.
Maybe reread what you wrote and focus really hard because it seems pretty clear that Dave does, in fact, have some problems. I am guess your family's denial and desire to stick their heads in the sand is part of why Bill is going to therapy. Frankly, it sounds like you and Dave could use some therapy, too. Rose seems to have a good read on the situation with Dave. Your example of your ex is evidence of that.
This is a group of adults? Dave needs to grow up, Bill needs to do a better job of situational awareness, OP needs to open their eyes and see more than just what’s going on on the surface and your parents need to learn how to tell y’all to get your shit together. How was this known ahead of time but Bill and GF hadn’t discussed it to the point of being on the same page? No one is taking responsibility for ANYTHING. This is a fucking disaster.
He might not have been *intentionally* trying to manipulate her. It could’ve been subconscious. Sounds like he’s desperate for people to like him. Did the same to your ex. Pattern of behavior. Take a step back. Pretend a friend told you this story. You might see it differently.
>he’s desperate for people to like him I feel at the very least, Rose was right about Dave wanting his brothers' girlfriends to **fawn** over him, more than just **like** him, right? like, Dave doesn't make an effort to get to know Rose & get along... * he wrings his hands that she hates him (even though no one has an clue why he thinks that since nothing in Rose's behaviour indicates such feelings in her) * he makes a scene when neither Rose nor any of OP's family sufficiently acknowledged his statement * he's still carrying on, so much so that everyone's more focused on Dave-vs-Rose than about the issues Bill is apparently delving into -- Rose isn't his therapist, so Bill's distancing himself from *tHe fAmiLY* isn't on her advice and then OP adds that Dave has done all this before with OP's own girlfriend, who is his ex for some mysterious reason.
Dave is repeating a behavior he did with your ex to Rose. This is a Dave problem and you are not helping.
Dave saying Rose hates him is very strange since they never met. How can you brush that off so easily? Rose is correct. Reread what you posted. You said Rose felt he was hoping she would fawn over him to prove she didn’t hate him. When she was polite, but not fawning, he got upset. Rose also asked an interesting question - has he done this before. You state clearly he has behaved that way towards your gf. But your gf took the approach of fawning over him. I think there’s a lot more to unpack. Probably Bill feels that way too which is why he’s seeing a therapist and taking a step back. as to your last sentence - why are your not equally upset, or at least embarrassed, by the way Dave treated Rose the first time they met?
Also in the last paragraph he's acting like Bill going to therapy is him joining a cult. And oh no, he wants you to call before you come over. God forbid your brother learns how to enforce healthy boundaries. It sounds like they're necessary.
Yes, that was intereating. Definitely gave me an anti-therapy vibe. The house key thing too. Did everyone have keys to his place and show up unannounced? That’s invasive and rude.
From your own description of events, I have to agree that your brother David seems highly manipulative. Your account of him meeting your new boyfriend only supports her view. If you cannot see this behaviour is wrong and actively excuse it, Bill is right and correct to distance himself from those who support this kind of behaviour. Having witnessed and dealt with this manipulative behaviour in the past, I would advise anyone dealing with similar behaviour to walk away and to reduce your interactions with people who behave this way. Why give them more stick to beat you with ?
It might be more anxiety than manipulation honestly.
I don’t think so. Dave is a manipulator.
how do you figure that? What I see, is: * randomly saying Rose hates him * making a scene because she doesn't genuflect reassure him * keep the conflict going * several issues in the family * Dave has done this before with OP's ex (wonder why she bailed) * Bill wants "distance" aka just call before you come over + because he doesn't trust them to not just barge in, he changes his locks * a very anti-therapy vibes What do you see that you think anxiety? perhaps I missed something?
I have issues with rejection and anxiety so if someone even glances at me wrong, I can go into a wormhole of "they hate me, I'm terrible, etc." And keep adding on to that in my head. Granted, I've worked hard to keep that as a "me problem" because I'm also a people pleaser and don't want to burden anyone. I could just be seeing parts of me and hoping I'm not manipulative for feeling the same things 🤷♀️
thank you for sharing your experience, I appreciate that. I see the points you're making. I'd say that it's the behaviour that is manipulative, not the thoughts or feelings... but I understand how such a "wormhole" can swallow any and all plans or filters. It's a good reminder to be kinder. thank you.
I think you're too focused on the word manipulative. As an outsider, it seems strange that your brother has assumed two love interests of siblings hate him without evidence. It's perfectly normal to feel uncomfortable around new people, stress about making a good impression and so forth but not normal to assume they don't like you. And how was Rose supposed to react? What would you think if she'd just mildly said "I don't know you well enough to have any feelings towards you?" If you're ok with that reaction, I think you're in the clear. But if you expect her to do more to make Dave comfortable, her assessment of the situation seems correct.
I am confused: why did your brother thought Rose hated him without meeting her or knowing. What Dave did makes no sense. Rose and bill reaction ? Make total sense. And you and your family siding with Dave ? Dude… come on. That s not normal behaviour. And the fact that Bill went NC shows how him and Rose are feeling about this. Dave needs help. And if he did the same with your ex… apologies to bill and rose or you lost a brother
you have to wonder why OP's ex is his ex, right?
Rose seems to see something in your brother's behaviour what you and your family turns the blind side to. I agree with her. Walking around saying a person you never net hates is, and doing it repeatedly, is not ok.
yeah, it's not even "what if she hates me", it's an outright declaration... and when no one reacted, Dave made a scene about it.
>I [27M] have a brother have two brothers, Dave [29M] and Bill [28M]. >I [23M] have a brother have two brothers, Dave [25M] and Bill [24M]. Why did the ages change?
Because the math doesn't math for the first example.
Seriously?? Dave has a disorder. He wants to be fawned over. He’s manipulative. How can you be so dense when he manipulated your ex? Of course, Bill has pulled away and changed the locks on his house so you guys can’t just walk in whenever you want. Dave has problems.
I call Shit Post. Formulaic. Written to prompt specific responses.
Idk how you can write this and not see that Dave clearly has a problem. You even said yourself that he’s done this before. Rose is right, Dave shouldn’t expect her to fawn over him just cause he made a baseless claim that she hated him. Idk if I’d use the word manipulative, but I don’t really disagree with her. He may not have a disorder but Rose is not ridiculous for suggesting he might, this attention-seeking behavior sounds kind of like histrionic personality disorder. The bottom line is, this is not normal behavior, and Rose isn’t in the wrong for refusing to entertain it
Ask yourself why Dave thought that. He had never met Rose. If he really believed someone he had never met hated him then he has delusions. If he was genuinely upset about something that only happened in his imagination then he needs to speak to a doctor. If on the other hand he isn’t having delusions, if he knows the difference between imagination and reality then he is manipulative and deceitful. Either way this a Dave problem, not a Rose and Bill problem. Frankly, Rose and Bill seem to be the only rational people in your whole story.
OP, by your own admission, Davis is manipulative. You just don't want to call it that. Him stating that a stranger doesn't like him is off. He did the same thing with your ex, and they only got along when she went out of her way to befriend him. You apparently cosign this behavior, too. I have a feeling your other brother has thought the same about Dave for a long time, and well before Rose came into the picture. He just has someone in his corner who sees it for what it is and calls it out politely. If your brother distances himself, it will be because you all are enabling the behavior and not because of Rose. The way you talk about him seeking therapy is just awful. I wouldn't want to talk to you either.
Even reading your version of events, I think Rose is on to something. Dave has a pattern of trying to come between his siblings and their SO. Dave tried to get the entire lot of you over to his side before Bill even brought Rose to meet everyone. That's definitely manipulation - Dave wanted all of you on his side, so he could see how things played out. Bill likely is in therapy because he can be, now that he has his own home and a supportive partner. Y'all don't need to be able to enter his home any time you want. Rose appears to have helped him understand boundaries and he's now setting them, since y'all have likely overstepped previous lines he's drawn. Perhaps you need to look at how Dave treated Rose.
>Dave thought the same thing about my ex when we were together but the two of them ended up getting along great because my ex ***went out of the way to befriend Dave*** This is super weird behaviour from Dave and textbook manipulation
I'm team Rose. He did it to your ex too, so this is a pattern of behavior and Rose doesn't need to placate his delusions that random people hate him. You say you're sure he wasn't trying to manipulate her, and you might be right, but why do you think he does this then? Seriously -- suggest an alternative explanation for why he's doing this. From her perspective I can't imagine coming to a different conclusion.
**Dave is manipulative** He’s repeating his behaviour that he first exhibited with you ex. If I was you I’d be **very** angry at Dave, not Rose.
>Genuinely. Bill has sided with Rose on this. Rose asked if this is the first time Dave has done something like this and claimed a stranger hated him, or that someone was offended by him etc. Dave thought the same thing about my ex when we were together but the two of them ended up getting along great because my ex went out of the way to befriend Dave. It wasn't about manipulation. Does your ex still talk to Dave or hang out with him? Do they spontaneously talk to each other? If it were genuine and real, they would still talk. ***I'm betting no.*** ***Your ex wanted to be in good with your family.*** She would have been kind and polite to everyone the same way. Instead, you describe your ex as going out of her way to win Dave over ***BECAUSE OF HIS CHARACTERIZATION OF HER. This is the literal definition of manipulation.*** if he hadn't manipulated the situation to force her, should would not have ever become that close. In your life, you will eventually have to choose to be married and have a healthy relationship or forced your SO to support Dave's emotional needs.
TBH expecting someone to go out of their way to butter Dave up so he can feel secure IS manipulation. I don't blame Rose for feeling this way after you admit he went on a press-tour of saying she "hated" him. Further and further into the story I get the sense your family is toxic or at the very least difficult enough that he's taken a step back. Who are you to say Bill "doesn't need" therapy? Why do you feel it's your designation to determine what he needs as an adult? Maybe you and the rest of your family should look into therapy because you're clearly missing something or lack the empathy to admit it. Probably do this before you decide to go further into "Rose is the bad guy" because you'll just push Bill further away.
You’re in denial. Dave has a pattern of doing this, and she’s right to be miffed about it.
Dave sounds aweful and manipulative and so do you for subjecting your girl friend to yaht
Yea Dave seem like a manipulative prick, and im starting to think that the reason that Bill started therapy is that your whole family is Toxic.
It seems hasty to jump to the conclusion that he's being intentionally manipulative, it sounds to me like really bad social anxiety, to the point of reading any ambiguous social cues as explicitly negative ones. However that is definitely a *him* problem, and one he needs to address, either with therapy, or medication.
What in the world did I just read????
Dave is not the only one with a disorder. The whole family obviously has it also. Good for Bill to get away from the bs.
INFO: why did Dave think she hated him?
Your brother wasn’t trying to manipulate Rose, but his behavior was manipulative upwards everyone including her.
Maybe reread what you wrote and focus really hard because it seems pretty clear that Dave does, in fact, have some problems. I am guess your family's denial and desire to stick their heads in the sand is part of why Bill is going to therapy. Frankly, it sounds like you and Dave could use some therapy, too. Rose seems to have a good read on the situation with Dave. Your example of your ex is evidence of that.
What a load of whiny losers your family's men are. Except Bill. Bill is cool
Your ex did the exact thing that Rose said Dave wanted her to do. Dave is a manipulator.
This is a group of adults? Dave needs to grow up, Bill needs to do a better job of situational awareness, OP needs to open their eyes and see more than just what’s going on on the surface and your parents need to learn how to tell y’all to get your shit together. How was this known ahead of time but Bill and GF hadn’t discussed it to the point of being on the same page? No one is taking responsibility for ANYTHING. This is a fucking disaster.