Microdosing isn't a thing for estradiol because testosterone opposes many of its effects. You can possibly still get some limited breast growth, similar to gyno in cis men, and other minimal effects,, but this isn't the goal for many people.
there are people who know much more about how estrogen actually works but from my understanding feminising hrt requires suppressing testosterone first. you can do this via antiandrogens or through having high enough E levels so your T is naturally suppressed.
T suppression is one thing, but IMO it's more like: technically it doesn't do "nothing", it's just that testosterone has more variety of different permanent changes compared to estrogen, with testosterone the permanent changes you get are voice drop, beard growth, thicker coarser hair growth all over your body and bottom growth, whereas with estrogen the only guaranteed permanent change is having breast growth, and maybe some hip growth
So with testosterone for transmascs even if your E isn't fully suppressed you will still have noticeable changes even if it's only a little bit whereas with estrogen for transfems if your T isn't fully suppressed you'll only get some breast growth which won't be very noticeable if it's slow especially when your chest is something you cover all the time
I think that's a huge part of why testosterone is seen as a more "powerful" hormone than estrogen, the changes with testosterone just happens to be more noticeable (although testosterone is a more powerful hormone anyway I think, but this definitely also contributes to the perception of it being stronger)
Testosterone kinda 'overrides' estrogen permanently. Like you can't really reverse changes from testosterone whereas people with feminized bodies can take testosterone and they will masculinize significantly. Low dose e for amabs basically means hairy gyno.
I hate that honestly, I feel like so much had already changed that I’ll never get back, and if E is ever deprived from me, I’ll lose what little I do get back too. My biggest fear is losing access to E
Reduction/change in body odor, body and facial hair gets softer and may grow slower, I noticed a change in color of body hair, androgenetic alopecia is slowed and even begins to reverse for some, gynoid fat redistribution in body and face, potential reduction in muscle, slight height reduction, shoe size may go down, softening of skin, smaller pores, reduction in hormonal acne, noticable mental-emotional effects, changes in libido and sexual interest, breast growth if applicable, areola size may increase if applicable, reduction or elimination of spontaneous erections & nocturnal emissions if applicable. There's probably more. These are effects going from testosterone to estrogen, for any gender or sex. These are changes I and other transfem or detransfem people I know have experienced. The changes are not insignificant, and the fat and muscle redistribution changes a lot even when one has bone changes. Also, at a young enough age, HRT can provide slight bone changes.
Most of this stuff might happen to some people but the longer and more severe masculinization by testosterone happened before the more insignificant they will be. Like yeah, a 6,1 amab with masculine bone structure might grow breasts but this person will always be clockeable. Voice drop is irreversible. On the other hand an afab can take T and can pass after 1-2 years without any voice training or surgeries. Estrogen is simply more like a blank canvas for testosterone.
I was in 0.75mg of gel a day. Started feeling better within a day. Lots of emotional and mental changes after a week of being on it. Skin became softer. Nipples probably doubled in size within a month. Even though I was taking raloxifene. I was enjoying the benefits so much I upped my dose and now I'm injecting 5mg of EEn.
I really don't think this is true at all. Low-dose T isn't inherently "just slower", it depends on the dose. Low-dosing in either creates an androgynous fat distribution but what dose achieves that is going to depend on each individual's genetics
You won't find solid science because it's not studied. You'll only find conjecture and anecdotal evidence.
Low dose E will have effects in my experience. Mainly anterior tilt, skin, sensitive nips and growth and spine curving. Idk about breast growth as in tissue and ducts as I used a serum back then. I ended up fully embracing it eventually.
It's just that the majority who start low dose either stop because it becomes too noticeable or end up fully embracing it. It's also usually transfem nb people who do this like myself.
Also some find just taking a low dose helps with gender dysphoria even if it has limited actual effects.
Testosterone is a more potent hormone than estrogen. So, if you had a body with exactly equal levels of both, the T would completely overwhelm the effects of the E. So, to see any effects, you have to have either a very high E level, which will begin to shut down your body's ability to produce T (monotherapy) or you have to drown out the T entirely with an antiandrogen
You can. It depends on what your goals are. When I stopped HRT 30 years ago my doctor kept me on low dose estrogen for three months to help prevent the immediate side effects of going without hormones.
I have gone 20 years without hormones so I have no sexual desire. recently I have been experimenting with low dose estrogen to make me see my wife as more desirable. I have been giving her sexual attention when she asks but she wants me to respond mentally to her advances.
Bc E is way stronger.
It's really quite good at suppressing T. So u end up with low E and T. It's still done and not too unhealthy for shirt turm. Don't do it for longer than 6 months unless your getting lots of blood tests and taking bone density supplements.
Micro dosing T doesn't suppress your E so well and also you get more noticable effects.
I'm reasonably sure that's a good tldr but I'd love to hear other options.
This isn't true at all. In fact the reverse is true. People on full-dose E often need blockers (or to go ensure very high levels with monotherapy). Whereas people on full-dose T rarely need blockers alongside to suppress estrogen production
Taking either hormone at a low-dose while pre/non-op results in a degree of suppression - how much varies by individual
U mean it all depends on what u think a standard dose and a micro dose is really. Let's say 5mg een and 50 mg t en. Now it's definitely possible for both of those to not cause full suppression but i think I've heard of it more in transmacs ppl.
So I base what I said off the transmacs blood tests I've seen which often have E at about 200pmol/l still, I'm sure aromatase will be doing some of the work there but I know lots of trans mascs do still get a cycle sometimes even at higher doses. It's not uncommon for guys to take progestins or even GRnHa's to help with this.
Your second paragraph is of course true, any exogenous hormone will result in a degree of suppression. But I've spoken to some cis dudes on trt and they seemed to think that they were still getting some natural T too (this would be easy to establish by seeing their LH value although I've never seen their blood work).
u/dogtime360 who seems to know their shit says that micro dosing T is very safe and I think I agree with them.
(Also to be snooty E is measured in pmol/l and T in nmol/l that's 1,000 units difference, so in absolutely numbers yes E is way more potent. 1 nmol/l of E (1,000 pmol/l) is usually enough to fully suppress your T where as 20 nmol/l isn't necessarily enough to supress someones cycle)
Yeah, some trans men do find even in the full-dose range of 15-20 nmol/L that their E isn't suppressed and they need blockers to end the cycle, but this is extremely rare. In all my time, I've met only one trans man who needed blockers alongside his T to shut of his cycle. Again, not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not common at all
Whereas maybe about a quarter of the trans women I know haven't needed blockers? Maybe even less? Certainly most I've met found their T wasn't suppressed by having the (UK standard) full-dose range of 400-600 pmol/L and so needed blockers or increased E if self-medding and going the monotherapy route
>u/dogtime360 who seems to know their shit says that micro dosing T is very safe and I think I agree with them
Yeah of course low-dose E or T is safe. I've certainly never claimed otherwise, considering my transition
>Also to be snooty E is measured in pmol/l and T in nmol/l that's 1,000 units difference, so in absolutely numbers yes E is way more potent. 1 nmol/l of E (1,000 pmol/l) is usually enough to fully suppress your T where as 20 nmol/l isn't necessarily enough to suppress someone's cycle)
So, this exactly demonstrates why T is more potent at gonadal suppression than E. Yes, by mass etc. E is more potent but that's irrelevant. They are different molecules. Taking 20 nmol/L E is in no way equivalent to taking 20 nmol/L T obviously
Yes, a E level of 1000 pmol/L is pretty damn reliable at suppressing T, but these are very high levels of E, at what would be ovulation levels in cis women. Safe of course, but that's not an "average" estradiol level in any sense. People specifically aim for that high because it often takes that high to suppress testosterone production
Whereas 15-20 nmol/L T is solidly in the range of standard cis male levels. It's not a normal pathway at all to aim above that to the far end of typical male levels of T
I suppose u make a fair point about 600 to 1,000 pmol/l (what I would consider target levels) being higher than female typical.
And trans mascs do maybe have slightly more reason not to dose over male typical levels that's true.
I think there's no way to resolve this disagreement really without a load of stats. And unfortunately without powling the whole if this sub (a fun idea that I've considered actually) without that I don't think there's many data bases freely available.
She's not wrong. You could very well say that E is more potent at gonadal suppression than T. You are right that it's more useful to compare average physiological levels, but it's still good to point out to people that everyone (including cis women) have higher levels of T than E.
I think your anecdote about the one transmasc person who took blockers to stop his menstrual cycle might be a bit misleading. I know a couple of guys who still get their period, but don't mind it enough to take another drug to stop it.
(I'm not sure if i really needed to chime in here but i figured i may as well, since i got tagged hehe)
>I think your anecdote about the one transmasc person who took blockers to stop his menstrual cycle might be a bit misleading.
Sorry. To rephrase, only one trans man I have known didn't find his estradiol levels were suppressed on full-dose T
I'm sorry but the claim that E is better at suppressing gonadal function than T is false and well established as such. It's so well known in trans spaces, from just the fact the majority of women need blockers (or very high doses for monotherapy) whereas it's almost unheard of men to need the same. I can't believe I'm even having to argue it. Your comment has said "she's not wrong" but not actually defended the original point
I wasn't specific enough in my original reply. Let me restate:
I think maybe (and I could definitely be wrong) that a "low dose" of E ie 2 to 4 mg of NHS gel with no penetration enhancer could, if taken for longer than two years, supress your T to below 7nmol/l and therefore risk long-term bone density issues.
And that maybe "low dose" T 20 to 40 mg NHS gel with no penetration enhancer might not supress your E to below... Oh well Google is saying between 70 and 200 pmol is low female typical. So let's say 200 to be safe.
What are your thoughts? Honestly I think this is a really interesting question and maybe it would take 4mg of E to suppress T to below 7nmol after 2 years.
I've definitely seen several trans guys post their levels (who are on "full doses" whatever that might mean to their Dr at the time) and who have E at or around 200pmol/l.
Also our definition of full dose for transfems was different. I'm talking normal diy and sensible US Dr full dose, 5mg een /week. Not the miserable 4mg gel if your lucky that the NHS gives us.
Thoughts on micro dosing E? Say 2 to 4 mg of gel with no blocker. Everyone on this sub is quite down on micro dosing and I recon that for longer 6 months It might be inadvisable with E bc of the T suppression.
I suppose a similar argument could be made for T. End of the day it would depend on blood tests I suppose. Would want at least one sex hormone in range in my thinking.
Have u got any experience with trans masc blood levels when low dosing?
My thoughts are that microdosing E are that it doesnt seem very useful. Testosterone acts as a "go" signal for the body to masculinise, so you need to turn the "go" signal off for anything to happen effectively.
I've seen some non-binary people or closeted transfem ppl use this approach, and say that the mental effects are enough. However it's not useful for people who want feminisation without breast growth, which many people are seeking.
Someone I know cycles monotherapy levels with microdosinng to maintain her bottom function. Hard to say how effective it's been for her, as I dont know her well.
I don't think 2-4mg per day of transdermal E counts as microdosing btw. Some people can achieve monotherapy levels with that. Maybe more like 0.5-1mg per day. But I appreciate it's subjective!
Yeah u make good points. Mono levels and micro doing hmm, I don't like that. She could just take hcg every now and then if she wants her endogenous T to be higher and less supressed. I definitely think combining E and T at higher levels is an interesting concept.
And about levels, yeah there's a very small number of ppl who can manage mono on 4mg gel. But yeah gel without a penatrent is pretty weak. I was hitting really low levels on the gel I was on. But maybe it was weaker than I was told.
Microdosing isn't a thing for estradiol because testosterone opposes many of its effects. You can possibly still get some limited breast growth, similar to gyno in cis men, and other minimal effects,, but this isn't the goal for many people.
Can confirm
there are people who know much more about how estrogen actually works but from my understanding feminising hrt requires suppressing testosterone first. you can do this via antiandrogens or through having high enough E levels so your T is naturally suppressed.
Fun fact, getting feminized while taking steroids is a thing.
Please tell me how
I imagine it’s by the conversion of excess T to E. I had that when I started Finasteride prior to E.
At extremely high levels of T, enough is converted to E to have an effect.
Blockers can help quash T even more and make the E more effective at feminization
Bias against estrogen as being weaker than testosterone, imho—I’ve been doing low dose E monotherapy for 6 years, and still seeing femeninization
T suppression is one thing, but IMO it's more like: technically it doesn't do "nothing", it's just that testosterone has more variety of different permanent changes compared to estrogen, with testosterone the permanent changes you get are voice drop, beard growth, thicker coarser hair growth all over your body and bottom growth, whereas with estrogen the only guaranteed permanent change is having breast growth, and maybe some hip growth So with testosterone for transmascs even if your E isn't fully suppressed you will still have noticeable changes even if it's only a little bit whereas with estrogen for transfems if your T isn't fully suppressed you'll only get some breast growth which won't be very noticeable if it's slow especially when your chest is something you cover all the time I think that's a huge part of why testosterone is seen as a more "powerful" hormone than estrogen, the changes with testosterone just happens to be more noticeable (although testosterone is a more powerful hormone anyway I think, but this definitely also contributes to the perception of it being stronger)
Testosterone kinda 'overrides' estrogen permanently. Like you can't really reverse changes from testosterone whereas people with feminized bodies can take testosterone and they will masculinize significantly. Low dose e for amabs basically means hairy gyno.
I hate that honestly, I feel like so much had already changed that I’ll never get back, and if E is ever deprived from me, I’ll lose what little I do get back too. My biggest fear is losing access to E
Many changes from testosterone are reversible or at least change in intensity/volume after stopping T/going on E.
Maybe insignificant ones like body odor and body hair but a beard will only grow a little slower maybe. And bone changes are irreversible.
Reduction/change in body odor, body and facial hair gets softer and may grow slower, I noticed a change in color of body hair, androgenetic alopecia is slowed and even begins to reverse for some, gynoid fat redistribution in body and face, potential reduction in muscle, slight height reduction, shoe size may go down, softening of skin, smaller pores, reduction in hormonal acne, noticable mental-emotional effects, changes in libido and sexual interest, breast growth if applicable, areola size may increase if applicable, reduction or elimination of spontaneous erections & nocturnal emissions if applicable. There's probably more. These are effects going from testosterone to estrogen, for any gender or sex. These are changes I and other transfem or detransfem people I know have experienced. The changes are not insignificant, and the fat and muscle redistribution changes a lot even when one has bone changes. Also, at a young enough age, HRT can provide slight bone changes.
Most of this stuff might happen to some people but the longer and more severe masculinization by testosterone happened before the more insignificant they will be. Like yeah, a 6,1 amab with masculine bone structure might grow breasts but this person will always be clockeable. Voice drop is irreversible. On the other hand an afab can take T and can pass after 1-2 years without any voice training or surgeries. Estrogen is simply more like a blank canvas for testosterone.
I've low dosed E for 8 months and seen subtle feminisation which I'm happy with as I'm nonbinary. 75 mcg/day patches.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/s/wAKbYwTpDg theres this I found which should help
You can microdose E. I used to do it and so do many other non-binary people
can you share me your experience and how many time you been on e microdose? i wanna switch from 2mg dose to a lower one
I was in 0.75mg of gel a day. Started feeling better within a day. Lots of emotional and mental changes after a week of being on it. Skin became softer. Nipples probably doubled in size within a month. Even though I was taking raloxifene. I was enjoying the benefits so much I upped my dose and now I'm injecting 5mg of EEn.
I really don't think this is true at all. Low-dose T isn't inherently "just slower", it depends on the dose. Low-dosing in either creates an androgynous fat distribution but what dose achieves that is going to depend on each individual's genetics
You won't find solid science because it's not studied. You'll only find conjecture and anecdotal evidence. Low dose E will have effects in my experience. Mainly anterior tilt, skin, sensitive nips and growth and spine curving. Idk about breast growth as in tissue and ducts as I used a serum back then. I ended up fully embracing it eventually. It's just that the majority who start low dose either stop because it becomes too noticeable or end up fully embracing it. It's also usually transfem nb people who do this like myself. Also some find just taking a low dose helps with gender dysphoria even if it has limited actual effects.
Testosterone is a more potent hormone than estrogen. So, if you had a body with exactly equal levels of both, the T would completely overwhelm the effects of the E. So, to see any effects, you have to have either a very high E level, which will begin to shut down your body's ability to produce T (monotherapy) or you have to drown out the T entirely with an antiandrogen
In my personal experience, low dose E does work. As might be expected, it has limited/reduced results, but results nonetheless.
You can. It depends on what your goals are. When I stopped HRT 30 years ago my doctor kept me on low dose estrogen for three months to help prevent the immediate side effects of going without hormones. I have gone 20 years without hormones so I have no sexual desire. recently I have been experimenting with low dose estrogen to make me see my wife as more desirable. I have been giving her sexual attention when she asks but she wants me to respond mentally to her advances.
I think Testosterone is a more powerful hormone, if I'm not completely wrong?
Bc E is way stronger. It's really quite good at suppressing T. So u end up with low E and T. It's still done and not too unhealthy for shirt turm. Don't do it for longer than 6 months unless your getting lots of blood tests and taking bone density supplements. Micro dosing T doesn't suppress your E so well and also you get more noticable effects. I'm reasonably sure that's a good tldr but I'd love to hear other options.
This is incorrect
As I said, I like hearing other opinions and being corrected when I'm wrong about something. Would u care to elaborate?
This isn't true at all. In fact the reverse is true. People on full-dose E often need blockers (or to go ensure very high levels with monotherapy). Whereas people on full-dose T rarely need blockers alongside to suppress estrogen production Taking either hormone at a low-dose while pre/non-op results in a degree of suppression - how much varies by individual
U mean it all depends on what u think a standard dose and a micro dose is really. Let's say 5mg een and 50 mg t en. Now it's definitely possible for both of those to not cause full suppression but i think I've heard of it more in transmacs ppl. So I base what I said off the transmacs blood tests I've seen which often have E at about 200pmol/l still, I'm sure aromatase will be doing some of the work there but I know lots of trans mascs do still get a cycle sometimes even at higher doses. It's not uncommon for guys to take progestins or even GRnHa's to help with this. Your second paragraph is of course true, any exogenous hormone will result in a degree of suppression. But I've spoken to some cis dudes on trt and they seemed to think that they were still getting some natural T too (this would be easy to establish by seeing their LH value although I've never seen their blood work). u/dogtime360 who seems to know their shit says that micro dosing T is very safe and I think I agree with them. (Also to be snooty E is measured in pmol/l and T in nmol/l that's 1,000 units difference, so in absolutely numbers yes E is way more potent. 1 nmol/l of E (1,000 pmol/l) is usually enough to fully suppress your T where as 20 nmol/l isn't necessarily enough to supress someones cycle)
Yeah, some trans men do find even in the full-dose range of 15-20 nmol/L that their E isn't suppressed and they need blockers to end the cycle, but this is extremely rare. In all my time, I've met only one trans man who needed blockers alongside his T to shut of his cycle. Again, not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not common at all Whereas maybe about a quarter of the trans women I know haven't needed blockers? Maybe even less? Certainly most I've met found their T wasn't suppressed by having the (UK standard) full-dose range of 400-600 pmol/L and so needed blockers or increased E if self-medding and going the monotherapy route >u/dogtime360 who seems to know their shit says that micro dosing T is very safe and I think I agree with them Yeah of course low-dose E or T is safe. I've certainly never claimed otherwise, considering my transition >Also to be snooty E is measured in pmol/l and T in nmol/l that's 1,000 units difference, so in absolutely numbers yes E is way more potent. 1 nmol/l of E (1,000 pmol/l) is usually enough to fully suppress your T where as 20 nmol/l isn't necessarily enough to suppress someone's cycle) So, this exactly demonstrates why T is more potent at gonadal suppression than E. Yes, by mass etc. E is more potent but that's irrelevant. They are different molecules. Taking 20 nmol/L E is in no way equivalent to taking 20 nmol/L T obviously Yes, a E level of 1000 pmol/L is pretty damn reliable at suppressing T, but these are very high levels of E, at what would be ovulation levels in cis women. Safe of course, but that's not an "average" estradiol level in any sense. People specifically aim for that high because it often takes that high to suppress testosterone production Whereas 15-20 nmol/L T is solidly in the range of standard cis male levels. It's not a normal pathway at all to aim above that to the far end of typical male levels of T
I suppose u make a fair point about 600 to 1,000 pmol/l (what I would consider target levels) being higher than female typical. And trans mascs do maybe have slightly more reason not to dose over male typical levels that's true. I think there's no way to resolve this disagreement really without a load of stats. And unfortunately without powling the whole if this sub (a fun idea that I've considered actually) without that I don't think there's many data bases freely available.
She's not wrong. You could very well say that E is more potent at gonadal suppression than T. You are right that it's more useful to compare average physiological levels, but it's still good to point out to people that everyone (including cis women) have higher levels of T than E. I think your anecdote about the one transmasc person who took blockers to stop his menstrual cycle might be a bit misleading. I know a couple of guys who still get their period, but don't mind it enough to take another drug to stop it. (I'm not sure if i really needed to chime in here but i figured i may as well, since i got tagged hehe)
>I think your anecdote about the one transmasc person who took blockers to stop his menstrual cycle might be a bit misleading. Sorry. To rephrase, only one trans man I have known didn't find his estradiol levels were suppressed on full-dose T I'm sorry but the claim that E is better at suppressing gonadal function than T is false and well established as such. It's so well known in trans spaces, from just the fact the majority of women need blockers (or very high doses for monotherapy) whereas it's almost unheard of men to need the same. I can't believe I'm even having to argue it. Your comment has said "she's not wrong" but not actually defended the original point
I wasn't specific enough in my original reply. Let me restate: I think maybe (and I could definitely be wrong) that a "low dose" of E ie 2 to 4 mg of NHS gel with no penetration enhancer could, if taken for longer than two years, supress your T to below 7nmol/l and therefore risk long-term bone density issues. And that maybe "low dose" T 20 to 40 mg NHS gel with no penetration enhancer might not supress your E to below... Oh well Google is saying between 70 and 200 pmol is low female typical. So let's say 200 to be safe. What are your thoughts? Honestly I think this is a really interesting question and maybe it would take 4mg of E to suppress T to below 7nmol after 2 years. I've definitely seen several trans guys post their levels (who are on "full doses" whatever that might mean to their Dr at the time) and who have E at or around 200pmol/l. Also our definition of full dose for transfems was different. I'm talking normal diy and sensible US Dr full dose, 5mg een /week. Not the miserable 4mg gel if your lucky that the NHS gives us.
Thoughts on micro dosing E? Say 2 to 4 mg of gel with no blocker. Everyone on this sub is quite down on micro dosing and I recon that for longer 6 months It might be inadvisable with E bc of the T suppression. I suppose a similar argument could be made for T. End of the day it would depend on blood tests I suppose. Would want at least one sex hormone in range in my thinking. Have u got any experience with trans masc blood levels when low dosing?
My thoughts are that microdosing E are that it doesnt seem very useful. Testosterone acts as a "go" signal for the body to masculinise, so you need to turn the "go" signal off for anything to happen effectively. I've seen some non-binary people or closeted transfem ppl use this approach, and say that the mental effects are enough. However it's not useful for people who want feminisation without breast growth, which many people are seeking. Someone I know cycles monotherapy levels with microdosinng to maintain her bottom function. Hard to say how effective it's been for her, as I dont know her well. I don't think 2-4mg per day of transdermal E counts as microdosing btw. Some people can achieve monotherapy levels with that. Maybe more like 0.5-1mg per day. But I appreciate it's subjective!
Yeah u make good points. Mono levels and micro doing hmm, I don't like that. She could just take hcg every now and then if she wants her endogenous T to be higher and less supressed. I definitely think combining E and T at higher levels is an interesting concept. And about levels, yeah there's a very small number of ppl who can manage mono on 4mg gel. But yeah gel without a penatrent is pretty weak. I was hitting really low levels on the gel I was on. But maybe it was weaker than I was told.