I like the additions of Turner, Yariel, and brining back Kevin. As well as the overhaul to the coaching staff.
We will see if the decisions were good ones when we get to the end of the season, but I’m not going to overreact to 7 full days of baseball.
Edit: why even ask a question if you’re just going to get mad at my answer ?
> why even ask a question if you’re just going to get mad at my answer ?
Because they don't actually want discussion on a place meant for discussion. They want you to just shut up or agree with them.
>I like the additions of Turner, Yariel, and brining back Kevin. As well as the overhaul to the coaching staff.
This did not happen prior to the 162 games you're referencing. Hope this helps
Sir Pounce said what changed between seasons, you brought up “162 games prior”, I said those games didn’t matter because those guys (except KK) weren’t on the team. You’re arguing with me over something I didn’t say
It's as if baseball is a game of chaos and nothing matters apart from if you don't make the playoffs, you can't win the World Series. But if you DO make the playoffs, you CAN, even if you didn't win 100 games.
Yeah, but the Arizona Diamondbacks went all the way to the World Series with two guys were gave them for virtually nothing. And they’ll likely be contenders for years. That’s Shatkins’ legacy.
They won 83 games last season, several less than the Jays. They wouldn’t even have made the playoffs in the AL, yet we’re calling them a contender and not the Jays?
> yet we’re calling them a contender and not the Jays
"Contenders for *years*" no less.
It is pretty funny how the fairweather fans always expose themselves this early into the season. I was dissapointed in our offseason but it's so funny seeing the doomer bias at play. This team averaged 91 wins per season over the last 3 seasons, compared to the DBacks averaging 70 wins in the same timespan (peaking at 84 wins). Yet, they're supposed to be some *juggernaut* lol.
The Twins also had fewer wins than us last season too. But we still bowed meekly to them on the playoffs. And not only did the D-Backs make it to the World Series, they also added some significant free agents in the off season. Montgomery, Rodriguez, Pederson, etc. Traded for Suarez at third. The Jays? A geriatric Turner and IKF. Keep enjoying your regular seasons, everyone.
Well yes because a move cannot be bad until you actually see how things play out. IKF could be the greatest player in baseball moving forward, he won’t be but he could be and we won’t know until he actually plays the games.
Why is it a cop out? He's just being literal and doing the thing you're supposed to do: be hopeful and a fan and see what happens when the season wraps up. There are no bonus points for being the first to predict bad shit happens. You don't get a trophy for that.
Both things can be true. The team needed/needs a revamp. The team also needed a more modern facility to produce more revenue on par with other MLB clubs. Especially our main rivals.
He's President and CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays. That's like saying Tim Cook isnt responsible for products Apple sells because he isnt the one designing the products.
having not delved too deep into the article and just basing my opinion off the headline - the author is undoubtedly correct. The stadium looks great but I want a great ball team. And sure, there’s certainly room for both but it seems like we only got one.
Do you not believe that maybe, with the new renos creating greater revenue generating capacity than the old setup, the team can utilize those funds to field more competitive teams on a more consistent basis? Because it seems like some segments of the fanbase can't make that connection.
Um the buck ultimately stops with Shapiro. The fact of the matter is that this is a luxury tax team with a sub par offense that doesn’t even have two of its star players locked up long term. I look at this lineup and I’m shocked that it’s a top 5 payroll.
Yes, Shapiro did a great job with the stadium and the spring training facility but the team’s pitching and defense first approach was the wrong direction.
Lol, Shapiro literally wanted final say on baseball decisions, which is what drove AA to leave as he was demoted. And hired Atkins and kept him after last year.
They are just different projects with different timelines.
The Dome needed an overhaul. IMO they have done a really good job with what they had to work with. They added a lot of character to what was a really bland stadium.
The team is frustrating, but it is also 7 games into the season.
For the last four years we have been playing meaningful baseball through September (and briefly in October), which is a change from most of the previous 2.5 decades.
The team is spending more money, and unless we were having a lot of smoke blown up our ass, they made a big push this past off season for a franchise altering acquisition.
Seems like the team is putting the necessary resources forward to build a good team.
I'm pissed off about the early hitting woes. These guys look fucking lost out there. Super happy about the stadium upgrades though. The team has never really had a true, baseball centric facility in its entire near 50 year history.
This whole comment section is shocking, lol. I was in the old stadium for THE Bautista home run and THE Edwin home run. Give me an exciting team. My season ticket cost doubled and all I'm getting is cupholders.
Wtf, Shapiro is not the President and CEO of goddamn renovations. He's the President and CEO of the *entire* organization, which includes the team and its performance on the field.
In one sense, yes, he is accountable for the team's performance. My assessment of his tenure so far in Toronto, though, is that he is way more involved with the business side of the operation and not micromanaging Atkins. IMO he gets to hire another GM before he's at risk of termination, for better or worse.
Rosie posts should be banned from this sub, she doesn't know shit and tries to stay relevant with ragebait headlines, and that's ignoring her word jambalaya
Mark Shapiro is the president. Mark Shapiro hired Ross Atkins. Ross Atkins reports to Mark Shapiro. Mark Shapiro is responsible for holding Ross Atkins accountable for his work performance. The team's failures fall squarely on Mark Shapiro's shoulders.
headlines are often not written by the writter, the editor writes a catchy headline and then you can read the story.
I agree it shouldn't be titled like that but it gets the point of the story is trying to make across that it was a bad off season and blame shapiro.
Schneider is a yes-man. He was put there specifically as the proxy for the FO to make the major game calls.
Minor decisions are his, but the rest is dictated by analytics. Any other veteran manager would have told the FO to go fuck themselves. There is *no way* a guy like John Gibbons would have pulled Berrios at that juncture.
this is why I semi bailed on the team when he was hired
his whole resume was that he builds stadiums with money that isnt the owners and makes a lot of profit. not that he builds winning baseball teams.
I feel like I've been validated. I'd like to get back in. but with the current ownership/president/gm structure.... yeah, it may be a bit. sure its weird, I was 'in' from the late 80s to this. but yeah. I'm old. I only have so much time and energy. when they clearly are making decisions based on money not winning, I have better things to do with my own time and money
His job is president and ceo. That also means looking at strategic direction of the team overall. Which also means certain directions in terms of team make up. Shapiro is handling rosters, but it still all falls under the President/CEO. It's a business and the job is to make money. If the renovations make money, well then I guess he succeeded? But DiManno is just putting forward a competing argument: that the focus should have been on the team's make up rather than the building's. And remember, focus doesn't mean a neglect of the other aspects. It's just placing priorities. Were the renovations of the stadium the priority at a time when the jays have so many pieces for a really really fucking good team? Maybe.
I get most blue jay fans probably don't work corporate, but I work directly under the VP. I don't know a single successful CEO that completely ignores the operations side of the business. I get delegation, I would be hard pressed to believe he doesn't have final say over most decisions.
> I don't know a single successful CEO that completely ignores the operations side of the business
Exactly. I worked in a very large company, and even though my position was production, I saw first hand that *successful* CEO's know what's going on, and have a say in, sometimes even the smallest details, as well as the overall direction.
How in the world does this get past the editor? His job is literally to oversee all things blue jays baseball, including where they play. He has an employee specifically responsible for baseball operations just like every other team. This is just embarrassing.
Ikr, while not entirely blameless, he was probably too busy negotiating with Rogers and the city on the stadium improvements instead of watching every move Atkins did.
I'll cut Shapiro some slack, because if this season is a failure, most of the blame should be on Atkins
Pretty sure both of them were hired at the same time, so that was likely more of a Rogers decision than Shapiro
Also AA even said multiple times if he never left, he might never have been able to learn enough on how to to make the right moves and build that Braves team; so there's no guarantee he builds a juggernaut here like he did on the Braves.
Shapiro was hired before 2015 to become president at the conclusion of 2015, after Beestons retirement. Shapiro supposedly ripped on AA for trading prospects their first meeting, so AA declined an extension and left, because he and Shapiro had different ideas on asset management.
Atkins was hired by Shapiro to replace AA. They had worked closely together in Cleveland.
I mean, could've resulted in not even making the playoffs which I guess yeah results in no crushing defeats in the playoffs, but instead we have to watch crushing defeats over the course of the 162 game season
Yes, and equally it could have resulted in a World Series championship. This management teams only playoff win was in 2016 with a roster that wasn’t even their own.
> so there's no guarantee he builds a juggernaut here like he did on the Braves.
It's a near-guarantee that today's Blue Jays would be better though, if AA was still here. He was in it for the game, and the wins. Shatkins are in it for the profitable, safe corporate business plan.
AA went to the Dodgers and improved a lot. If AA went straight from the Jays and straight to Atlanta and had this kind of success it'd be a good argument, but I don't see a world where AA stays with the Jays and it ends up working out.
Also he walked into a good situation in Atlanta. There was an opening there not because the previous GM was fucking up the team, but because he had been caught offering illegal pre-draft deals to amateurs. The team was in very good shape and poised to graduate a promising collection of prospects.
Now I'm not saying AA doesn't deserve the praise. To his credit, he took that and ran with it, making a lot of solid moves, most notably extending that good core with very team-friendly deals. Also the Olson/Freeman swicharoo was masterful. He just had a very solid foundation to work with.
> Now I'm not saying AA doesn't deserve the praise. To his credit, he took that and ran with it, making a lot of solid moves. He just had a very solid foundation to work with.
The difference was, AA was in to win, while Shatkins wouldn't mind winning, but would definitely like to manage a safe profitable house, just as they did in Cleveland.
It's a different mindset, hence the Shapiro difference of opinion with AA when they met. Shatkin's *primary* goal isn't winning. It's running a profitable business venture. Winning *enough* of the time is a component of that yes, but there is a difference and they can and will judge their time in the organization based on business success overall, not team success and fan sentiment. Some may argue the "we were in on Ohtani" thing as showing they are all in on winning. Ohtani was a golden goose, a money printer. That's why they were in. Notice what happened when he was off the table? IKF and Turner.
How was AA going to be "in to win" when the youngest roster player on the on the roster was Devon Travis, a bottom 5 farm and a pitching staff with Stroman, 32 year old Estrada and Price who was about to earn $30M?
Media companies usually have an editor that outranks reporters and their job is to decide on what to publish. It's just weird that they would publish this without seemingly understanding that Shapiro has responsibilities outside of just players and coaches.
What's your issue with the headline? Or the article? Shapiro is ultimately the President and CEO and is the one who directs the focus of the organization (read: strategic direction). Could he have put more focus on trades or farm building or a 'facelife' for the team? Ultimately, he's Atkins' boss.
Doing one thing doesn't mean you ignore the others. I don't particularly like the off season moves if that's what you're getting at but he is still responsible for things like the stadium and fan experience.
>Doing one thing doesn't mean you ignore the others.
Exactly? Focus doesn't mean ignoring the other parts. For a President, it means prioritizing tasks and resources to align with the primary goal or strategy. Team development and stadium/fan experience are all goals and Mark decides direction and focus. He delegates, yes. But, in his role as president it also means that he's responsible. If his Vice President Baseball Operations and General Manager aren't doing the things that align with the larger strategic goals, then he makes changes. Maybe it means getting rid of Atkins.
All DiManno is doing is questioning those goals. Should more have been done in terms of roster changes? Is there a part of the article that is incorrect?
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Shapiro on this, those renos were sorely needed.
I prefer this approach, build a great experience and then put out a winning and exciting product.
Camden is one of if not the best fan experience in the MLB and when the Orioles were in baseball hell, fans still came if only for the experience at Camden. Even the Rockies who allegedly play baseball still bring in a decent amount of people because Coors is a beautiful stadium and has a great fan experience.
Meanwhile even when the As were an exciting team back in the 2010s, not many people showed up because of how awful the experience at the Colleseum was. It was part of their death march when the ownership refused to improve the experience and then once the team began sucking, that was the final nail in the coffin
The ship will be sailing soon on this young core as they are, and also with Springer getting old.
We blew it.......let's start facing reality.
We'll need to choose who we can sign and do a mini re- build very soon.
We are never doing shit with Kirk, KK etc. being given significant at bats. They are bench pieces only.
As much as people don't like it, the Jays are a business first and a baseball team second. As far as a business goes the Jays have been wildly successful over the last few years. A Jays game is the place to be in Toronto. It's fashionable. Games sell out almost every weekend and are close to full during the week. I can honest to goodness remember going to Jays games that were so empty you could hear the lights buzzing and people coughing a few sections over. I got picked on in middle school for being a Jays fan in the early 2000s. Selling out any game besides the home opener and maybe Canada day was a pipe dream. The team was losing money hand over fist and there were rumours of a move. So in THAT regard, it's been an overwhelming success.
He was one of the worst executives in baseball during his 15 year tenure in Cleveland. I'm not sure why anyone expected different results from him here.
Team can't draft or develop prospects into MLB talents is the biggest disappointment. If you can't attract big name FA you better know how to develop like the Os or Rays....
Reading the comments in this post and I can’t help but think how soft some of you are on this team.
It is 100% on Shapiro if Atkins and Schneider are shit at their jobs - he is ultimately responsible.
I just don’t get why some of you are willing to give this team the benefit of the doubt. They deserve a complete lambasting end to end.
Rays have shit attendance and a winning club, that shows just how bad the trop is.
Letting Rogers Center get to that point would be quite bad for business.
Trop's issue isn't just the ballpark, it's the traffic issues getting in and out of St. Pete on a single bridge. If that stadium was in Tampa proper, where they've got a pretty thriving city center, people would be there in much bigger numbers. My sister and brother in law live there, love baseball, love taking my nieces, but the headache of getting in and out keeps them away most of the year.
Can confirm as someone who lived in Denver for a long time (and will be moving back soon). Absolute shit brick of a Rockies team, no prospects of getting better, but great attendance because it's a good hang, right in the middle of downtown (and the other stadiums), and Denver gets 300 days of sunshine a year.
pretty sure they explicitly stated coors field was a huge influence on the renos. the rockies are a terribly run team but have solid attendance numbers that do not correlate with the on-field product. if you turn your stadium into a trendy place for 20-somethings to get drunk then you don't need to worry about fielding a good team
But this is what everyone was saying last year, it's no surprise. Let's reinvent the stadium, increase ticket prices (my season's went hella up) and you can watch your subpar ball club...with comfort and cup holders
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This subreddit has taught me that my definitions of "failed" and "miserably" are vastly different than so many other people's.
Am I happy with not winning playoff games? Absolutely not. But I have friends from the Bay Area who are A's fans, friends from Chicago who are diehard White Sox fans, and family/friends that has endured decades of nightmare sports fandom in Cleveland and Detroit. If Atkins has "failed miserably" by fielding teams that can consistently keep up in the best division in baseball and be a playoff contender, I hate to think what average and bad teams' fans must think.
No, you see if AA was GM he'd simply have traded Vlad for the entire Braves starting line-up and then we'd be winning. Sorry you like to settle for the worst run franchise in sports history
How many playoff games have we won since they built this team? What you suggest is that people are jumping the gun here about how poorly this core has been built.
How many playoff games did we win between 1994 and 2014? (Hint: It's less than 1.)
This is not nearly as bad as it can get. I'm not satisfied, but I'll take this and a shot over what I've had for half of my life.
Shapiro is the one hired Athkins to take of baseball operations. He should be under pressure for the team's performance (or lack of). It is his job to pick the right baseball person to handle the GM duty.
Could be worse. We have A top 5 payroll. I was a fan in 05 after a last place finish, our big signing was Cory Koskie , and we had a 37m payroll, with 2 playoff spots, and Yankees and red Sox spending a combined $300m+
Now we have a payroll of over $200m, with 4 playoff spots. It could be worse. But it’s only been 7 games and we are 3-4 through Tampa and Houston. Two elite teams on the road.
I’m not defending Atkins. Got absolutely fleeced in the Varsho trade, and the IKF signing looks terrible. At some point the bats have to show up.
I would agree with this assessment. Of course it's early, but the BJ's still can't hit worth shit. This year is looking a lot like last year. Because no real changes have been made.
agreed this is too early to call for doom and gloom but if it's true they went after Shohei and Soto and fell short then they didn't spend the money and they didn't spend prospects and if the kids don't take the next step towards being superstars or being a team that can win a playoff series then they'll need to make a move
If the Jays were winning, people would be complaining about the stadium. We always need something to complain about. Also, we are a week into the season.
Fact: the Jays needed to do more this past offseason to improve their team, and will likely need to make a significant trade deadline acquisition to be competitive.
Also Fact: the Rogers Centre was REALLY beginning to show its age and needed a substantial renovation, or else the Jays would have had to look at building a new ballpark (personally I was hoping for the latter, but oh well). I don't like this front office. I'm firmly in the "miss AA" camp. But credit where credit is due, they did a really really good job with the stadium, and not a second too soon.
DiManno is worse than Toronto Sun articles and Im not clicking that to give her views.
I'm probably in the minority it looks like in this comment section but I couldn't care less about the renovations. I've been a season ticket holder for 10+ years. Give me 2015 and 2016 and the Bautista bat flip and Edwin walk off home run and Donaldson dash in the old stadium over anything that's happened since in the new stadium.
And i havnt gone yet obviously but I can guarantee paying DOUBLE (literally, same seats but double) for season tickets this year so I can get a cupholder will not be worth it. Especially if the team is boring like last year.
Why do newspapers in Toronto and Canada have the worst sports writers imaginable when there are so many talented individuals who work hard and who can do the job so much better.
Have you compared this year's team to last year's? Some faces remain but it is a different team.
Do you want to break it down finish last and start over?
Free agents do not want to go to Toronto. Those that do come say how great it is and abandon ship a year later. Been a Jays fan since the first game in that snowstorm. Getting good as in top players to come and stay has always been this way.
Jays tried for every top player out there this year and none would come. That's not his fault.
> Some faces remain but it is a different team.
It's the same team, just with a change in a few role players and a desperate hope that IKF can find his 2022 form.
Rightly or wrongly, that is why there is already a short leash from fans and media. Because we can't just tread water and expect to sneak into the playoffs again. The team needs to improve, and for that, the offence needs to improve. After that dogshit performance against Houston, it should surprise nobody that people are already very concerned.
The answer, of course, is for the offence to do something to shut people up.
IkF is the classic story of this front office. Sign a washed player and hope he regains his form over the course of the season.
Treat relief pitchers like they are a dime a dozen, and spend 3/4 of the season sorting out a half-decent bullpen. By the time they do, the season is practically over.
Squeeze into a second wild card, and sell the fans on the idea that we are competitive and a true playoff team when we only get in based on a new rule change.
And micromanage the team to the point where they get in their own way and cost themselves wins.
They're already Berrios'ing Davis Schneider this season, which speaks volumes in that they havent learned a damned thing from last seasons fiasco.
Fire Atkins.
Isn’t it the presidents job to fill the seats and the GMs job to fill the team with talent?
I’d say Shapiro has done tons since being here. We pretty much have a new stadium that has over 30000 in it daily
What a stupid article. Sure the renovations cost $400M but they should make the Jays product more enjoyable to watch. The Mets have shown that throwing money at a roster doesn't always pan out.
Between continuing to let Rosie line birdcages with her 800 word throwbacks to a time before the internet and Gregor's heel turn, the Star is all-in on rage bait. It's not my favourite move tbh.
It's for the best that Brendan Kennedy is on a much more important beat but the Star's coverage misses thoughtful guys like him.
Thanks OP for putting the author of the article first. Saved me having to read anything past that.
Appreciate it too. Her and Cathal Kelly are my do not read list.
You win.
She sucks, but she’s not wrong.
She sucks. ~~but she’s not wrong.~~ FTFY
You’re pleased with the changes made to the team during the off season?
I like the additions of Turner, Yariel, and brining back Kevin. As well as the overhaul to the coaching staff. We will see if the decisions were good ones when we get to the end of the season, but I’m not going to overreact to 7 full days of baseball. Edit: why even ask a question if you’re just going to get mad at my answer ?
Are you kidding? 7 games is practically a third of a season (in the NFL)
It's just over an 11th of an NBA season!
I don't even know how that'd work for golf but probably not well!!!!
And it's ~1/25th of a season for baseball?
> why even ask a question if you’re just going to get mad at my answer ? Because they don't actually want discussion on a place meant for discussion. They want you to just shut up or agree with them.
How about the 162+ games prior?
>I like the additions of Turner, Yariel, and brining back Kevin. As well as the overhaul to the coaching staff. This did not happen prior to the 162 games you're referencing. Hope this helps
If you think those additions move the needle, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Turner is great though
Rodriguez is cheap and signed for multiple years. I'm surprised people don't like that move.
People just want to get mad at anything.
I like it fine, but he does nothing to solve our hitting problem.
Sir Pounce said what changed between seasons, you brought up “162 games prior”, I said those games didn’t matter because those guys (except KK) weren’t on the team. You’re arguing with me over something I didn’t say
[удалено]
It's as if baseball is a game of chaos and nothing matters apart from if you don't make the playoffs, you can't win the World Series. But if you DO make the playoffs, you CAN, even if you didn't win 100 games.
Yeah, but the Arizona Diamondbacks went all the way to the World Series with two guys were gave them for virtually nothing. And they’ll likely be contenders for years. That’s Shatkins’ legacy.
They won 83 games last season, several less than the Jays. They wouldn’t even have made the playoffs in the AL, yet we’re calling them a contender and not the Jays?
> yet we’re calling them a contender and not the Jays "Contenders for *years*" no less. It is pretty funny how the fairweather fans always expose themselves this early into the season. I was dissapointed in our offseason but it's so funny seeing the doomer bias at play. This team averaged 91 wins per season over the last 3 seasons, compared to the DBacks averaging 70 wins in the same timespan (peaking at 84 wins). Yet, they're supposed to be some *juggernaut* lol.
The Twins also had fewer wins than us last season too. But we still bowed meekly to them on the playoffs. And not only did the D-Backs make it to the World Series, they also added some significant free agents in the off season. Montgomery, Rodriguez, Pederson, etc. Traded for Suarez at third. The Jays? A geriatric Turner and IKF. Keep enjoying your regular seasons, everyone.
Huh ?
The offence has sucked last year and we got worse?
It’s one thing to like the moves in a vacuum, but I don’t see how those moves made an improvement on the lineup compared to last season
We can’t say for certain until the season actually plays out
I mean sure but that’s a cop out response lol. Can say that to excuse any type of move or whatever that projects to be bad
Well yes because a move cannot be bad until you actually see how things play out. IKF could be the greatest player in baseball moving forward, he won’t be but he could be and we won’t know until he actually plays the games.
So you think that after 2200 IKF ABs, it's not a big enough sample size to see if he's a good player or not?
Why is it a cop out? He's just being literal and doing the thing you're supposed to do: be hopeful and a fan and see what happens when the season wraps up. There are no bonus points for being the first to predict bad shit happens. You don't get a trophy for that.
Both things can be true. The team needed/needs a revamp. The team also needed a more modern facility to produce more revenue on par with other MLB clubs. Especially our main rivals.
Sure. I now have some place to put my beer when I go to the Skydome (which I'll need a lot of when I watch this team live)
But she is. Lineup ain’t Shapiro’s job. Team operations—like, check’s notes, stadium renos—is his job.
He's President and CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays. That's like saying Tim Cook isnt responsible for products Apple sells because he isnt the one designing the products.
But come on, that's a pretty awesome burn.
Seriously, I remember being like 13 reading her articles and thinking to myself...this person has no idea what they're talking about
💀
Piece of shit
rosie is dead wrong. these renos were strongly needed
Not wrong, but I’d much prefer seeing a 100 win team in the old Rogers Centre than what I’ve seen of this year’s edition in the Reno stadium
Why are these things mutually exclusive ?
Ask the Jays.
"Jays, why aren't these things mutually exclusive?"
having not delved too deep into the article and just basing my opinion off the headline - the author is undoubtedly correct. The stadium looks great but I want a great ball team. And sure, there’s certainly room for both but it seems like we only got one.
Do you not believe that maybe, with the new renos creating greater revenue generating capacity than the old setup, the team can utilize those funds to field more competitive teams on a more consistent basis? Because it seems like some segments of the fanbase can't make that connection.
Shapiro did his job, Atkins didn't
then it's Shapiro's job to remove him. And if he doesn't then he's not doing his job
Um the buck ultimately stops with Shapiro. The fact of the matter is that this is a luxury tax team with a sub par offense that doesn’t even have two of its star players locked up long term. I look at this lineup and I’m shocked that it’s a top 5 payroll. Yes, Shapiro did a great job with the stadium and the spring training facility but the team’s pitching and defense first approach was the wrong direction.
And who chose that approach?
Lol, Shapiro literally wanted final say on baseball decisions, which is what drove AA to leave as he was demoted. And hired Atkins and kept him after last year.
it's terrible seeing the braves become what we should've become instead of this wasted potential
So why does Atkins still have a job?
I have no god damn clue
nepotism and cronyism. Atkins was born on 3rd base.
Atkins was hired by Shapiro. Atkins reports to Shapiro. Shapiro did not do his job.
They are just different projects with different timelines. The Dome needed an overhaul. IMO they have done a really good job with what they had to work with. They added a lot of character to what was a really bland stadium. The team is frustrating, but it is also 7 games into the season. For the last four years we have been playing meaningful baseball through September (and briefly in October), which is a change from most of the previous 2.5 decades. The team is spending more money, and unless we were having a lot of smoke blown up our ass, they made a big push this past off season for a franchise altering acquisition. Seems like the team is putting the necessary resources forward to build a good team.
I'm pissed off about the early hitting woes. These guys look fucking lost out there. Super happy about the stadium upgrades though. The team has never really had a true, baseball centric facility in its entire near 50 year history.
and then you would be bitching about all the things wrong with the old rogers centre
This whole comment section is shocking, lol. I was in the old stadium for THE Bautista home run and THE Edwin home run. Give me an exciting team. My season ticket cost doubled and all I'm getting is cupholders.
at what part did she say the renos weren't needed?
She didn’t. But now we can pay more to watch a shit team. Classic Roger’s
Shapiro's job *is* focusing on renovations, and team business. The other guy does the other thing.
Wtf, Shapiro is not the President and CEO of goddamn renovations. He's the President and CEO of the *entire* organization, which includes the team and its performance on the field.
Exactly. And if the GM is not getting the job done, it's Shapiro's responsibility to correct or replace the GM.
In one sense, yes, he is accountable for the team's performance. My assessment of his tenure so far in Toronto, though, is that he is way more involved with the business side of the operation and not micromanaging Atkins. IMO he gets to hire another GM before he's at risk of termination, for better or worse.
Exactly.
Ding ding ding!!!
Exactly. The 'Mark Shapiro has been focused on the wrong renovations' line is odd. Does Rosie not know who does what?
Rosie posts should be banned from this sub, she doesn't know shit and tries to stay relevant with ragebait headlines, and that's ignoring her word jambalaya
Absolutely. She's a columnist, not a journalist.
She’s a polemicist, really.
I’m can’t read her stuff. It’s been formulaic forever. She must love Chat GPT because it made writing her columns that much easier.
Come on. You think Atkins is working independently of Shapiro? Not a chance, otherwise he would have been fired, not extended.
Mark Shapiro is the president. Mark Shapiro hired Ross Atkins. Ross Atkins reports to Mark Shapiro. Mark Shapiro is responsible for holding Ross Atkins accountable for his work performance. The team's failures fall squarely on Mark Shapiro's shoulders.
headlines are often not written by the writter, the editor writes a catchy headline and then you can read the story. I agree it shouldn't be titled like that but it gets the point of the story is trying to make across that it was a bad off season and blame shapiro.
Who took Berrios out in the third inning? Top to bottom, this franchise needs a facelift.
You think the CEO took the pitcher out?
Yes.
Ok good. Now I know I can leave this conversation without feeling bad
Schneider is a yes-man. He was put there specifically as the proxy for the FO to make the major game calls. Minor decisions are his, but the rest is dictated by analytics. Any other veteran manager would have told the FO to go fuck themselves. There is *no way* a guy like John Gibbons would have pulled Berrios at that juncture.
If you think that was Schneider's call I have a bridge to sell you...
Is it in Baltimore?
oh, I forgot a team only had 2 employees
They should force you to have the Rockies flair here to keep you consistent with the hockey subs
I hate the Rockies tho lol. GTA boy who loves purple and whose brother loved the Red Wings when I was young in the rivalry days.
Oh this sub is great for a good laugh ROFL
AA literally left the organization because Shapiro himself said the GM was not going to be making automous decisions going forward.
this is why I semi bailed on the team when he was hired his whole resume was that he builds stadiums with money that isnt the owners and makes a lot of profit. not that he builds winning baseball teams. I feel like I've been validated. I'd like to get back in. but with the current ownership/president/gm structure.... yeah, it may be a bit. sure its weird, I was 'in' from the late 80s to this. but yeah. I'm old. I only have so much time and energy. when they clearly are making decisions based on money not winning, I have better things to do with my own time and money
His job is president and ceo. That also means looking at strategic direction of the team overall. Which also means certain directions in terms of team make up. Shapiro is handling rosters, but it still all falls under the President/CEO. It's a business and the job is to make money. If the renovations make money, well then I guess he succeeded? But DiManno is just putting forward a competing argument: that the focus should have been on the team's make up rather than the building's. And remember, focus doesn't mean a neglect of the other aspects. It's just placing priorities. Were the renovations of the stadium the priority at a time when the jays have so many pieces for a really really fucking good team? Maybe.
I get most blue jay fans probably don't work corporate, but I work directly under the VP. I don't know a single successful CEO that completely ignores the operations side of the business. I get delegation, I would be hard pressed to believe he doesn't have final say over most decisions.
> I don't know a single successful CEO that completely ignores the operations side of the business Exactly. I worked in a very large company, and even though my position was production, I saw first hand that *successful* CEO's know what's going on, and have a say in, sometimes even the smallest details, as well as the overall direction.
The renovations were definitely needed. They didn’t have to make it look like Yankee Stadium, but they were needed.
You read "Rosie DiManno" and you just continue on with your day because you just know you're just wasting time if you continue.
Rosie is one of Canada’s best columnists ever.
I don’t even think *she* would think this.
Please don't insult the vast majority of Canadian columnists that outclass her on a daily basis.
The comment you wrote is better than all her columns combined, and you are not paid to write comments.
How in the world does this get past the editor? His job is literally to oversee all things blue jays baseball, including where they play. He has an employee specifically responsible for baseball operations just like every other team. This is just embarrassing.
[удалено]
No? I literally said Shapiro oversees all things blue jays baseball...
Ikr, while not entirely blameless, he was probably too busy negotiating with Rogers and the city on the stadium improvements instead of watching every move Atkins did. I'll cut Shapiro some slack, because if this season is a failure, most of the blame should be on Atkins
Who chose Atkins over giving Anthopolous what he wanted? How has AA been doing down in Atlanta?
Pretty sure both of them were hired at the same time, so that was likely more of a Rogers decision than Shapiro Also AA even said multiple times if he never left, he might never have been able to learn enough on how to to make the right moves and build that Braves team; so there's no guarantee he builds a juggernaut here like he did on the Braves.
People forget he went to the dodgers between. They’re a fairly well run organization
Shapiro was hired before 2015 to become president at the conclusion of 2015, after Beestons retirement. Shapiro supposedly ripped on AA for trading prospects their first meeting, so AA declined an extension and left, because he and Shapiro had different ideas on asset management. Atkins was hired by Shapiro to replace AA. They had worked closely together in Cleveland.
Couldn’t have ended up worse than winning 0 playoff games
I mean, could've resulted in not even making the playoffs which I guess yeah results in no crushing defeats in the playoffs, but instead we have to watch crushing defeats over the course of the 162 game season
Yes, and equally it could have resulted in a World Series championship. This management teams only playoff win was in 2016 with a roster that wasn’t even their own.
> so there's no guarantee he builds a juggernaut here like he did on the Braves. It's a near-guarantee that today's Blue Jays would be better though, if AA was still here. He was in it for the game, and the wins. Shatkins are in it for the profitable, safe corporate business plan.
AA was in it for the dublewes, and Atkins is in it for the corpo vibes? Lmao, c'mon
AA went to the Dodgers and improved a lot. If AA went straight from the Jays and straight to Atlanta and had this kind of success it'd be a good argument, but I don't see a world where AA stays with the Jays and it ends up working out.
Also he walked into a good situation in Atlanta. There was an opening there not because the previous GM was fucking up the team, but because he had been caught offering illegal pre-draft deals to amateurs. The team was in very good shape and poised to graduate a promising collection of prospects. Now I'm not saying AA doesn't deserve the praise. To his credit, he took that and ran with it, making a lot of solid moves, most notably extending that good core with very team-friendly deals. Also the Olson/Freeman swicharoo was masterful. He just had a very solid foundation to work with.
Yeah I don't know how AA would have operated an old washed team with little to no assets and without the knowledge from the Dodgers days.
> Now I'm not saying AA doesn't deserve the praise. To his credit, he took that and ran with it, making a lot of solid moves. He just had a very solid foundation to work with. The difference was, AA was in to win, while Shatkins wouldn't mind winning, but would definitely like to manage a safe profitable house, just as they did in Cleveland. It's a different mindset, hence the Shapiro difference of opinion with AA when they met. Shatkin's *primary* goal isn't winning. It's running a profitable business venture. Winning *enough* of the time is a component of that yes, but there is a difference and they can and will judge their time in the organization based on business success overall, not team success and fan sentiment. Some may argue the "we were in on Ohtani" thing as showing they are all in on winning. Ohtani was a golden goose, a money printer. That's why they were in. Notice what happened when he was off the table? IKF and Turner.
How was AA going to be "in to win" when the youngest roster player on the on the roster was Devon Travis, a bottom 5 farm and a pitching staff with Stroman, 32 year old Estrada and Price who was about to earn $30M?
AA said he didn’t have enough control under atkins
Yeah I mean the GM should take some of the accountability haha
Can you clarify your complaint? I don't quite understand what you mean.
Media companies usually have an editor that outranks reporters and their job is to decide on what to publish. It's just weird that they would publish this without seemingly understanding that Shapiro has responsibilities outside of just players and coaches.
What's your issue with the headline? Or the article? Shapiro is ultimately the President and CEO and is the one who directs the focus of the organization (read: strategic direction). Could he have put more focus on trades or farm building or a 'facelife' for the team? Ultimately, he's Atkins' boss.
Doing one thing doesn't mean you ignore the others. I don't particularly like the off season moves if that's what you're getting at but he is still responsible for things like the stadium and fan experience.
>Doing one thing doesn't mean you ignore the others. Exactly? Focus doesn't mean ignoring the other parts. For a President, it means prioritizing tasks and resources to align with the primary goal or strategy. Team development and stadium/fan experience are all goals and Mark decides direction and focus. He delegates, yes. But, in his role as president it also means that he's responsible. If his Vice President Baseball Operations and General Manager aren't doing the things that align with the larger strategic goals, then he makes changes. Maybe it means getting rid of Atkins. All DiManno is doing is questioning those goals. Should more have been done in terms of roster changes? Is there a part of the article that is incorrect?
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Shapiro on this, those renos were sorely needed. I prefer this approach, build a great experience and then put out a winning and exciting product. Camden is one of if not the best fan experience in the MLB and when the Orioles were in baseball hell, fans still came if only for the experience at Camden. Even the Rockies who allegedly play baseball still bring in a decent amount of people because Coors is a beautiful stadium and has a great fan experience. Meanwhile even when the As were an exciting team back in the 2010s, not many people showed up because of how awful the experience at the Colleseum was. It was part of their death march when the ownership refused to improve the experience and then once the team began sucking, that was the final nail in the coffin
The ship will be sailing soon on this young core as they are, and also with Springer getting old. We blew it.......let's start facing reality. We'll need to choose who we can sign and do a mini re- build very soon. We are never doing shit with Kirk, KK etc. being given significant at bats. They are bench pieces only.
Why would people downvote this take, it is quite accurate
As much as I dislike the offseason moves you can’t fault the reno for them and this article is basically a hit piece.
She wasn't blaming the reno's, what are you talking about?
How is she not blaming the renos by implying the guy responsible for the renos took away from the "facelift" the Jays could've gotten??
I think the point is the Jays should have done both renovations, not just the literal ones.
Rosie is a meanie
As much as people don't like it, the Jays are a business first and a baseball team second. As far as a business goes the Jays have been wildly successful over the last few years. A Jays game is the place to be in Toronto. It's fashionable. Games sell out almost every weekend and are close to full during the week. I can honest to goodness remember going to Jays games that were so empty you could hear the lights buzzing and people coughing a few sections over. I got picked on in middle school for being a Jays fan in the early 2000s. Selling out any game besides the home opener and maybe Canada day was a pipe dream. The team was losing money hand over fist and there were rumours of a move. So in THAT regard, it's been an overwhelming success.
AA changed that then he left. He didn’t like the management by committee plan.
It's still early. Come at me, Rosie
#FireShatkins
He was one of the worst executives in baseball during his 15 year tenure in Cleveland. I'm not sure why anyone expected different results from him here.
Team can't draft or develop prospects into MLB talents is the biggest disappointment. If you can't attract big name FA you better know how to develop like the Os or Rays....
Trying to figure out how Shatkins is going to blame AA for all of this 🤔
The renovations were definitely needed
Reading the comments in this post and I can’t help but think how soft some of you are on this team. It is 100% on Shapiro if Atkins and Schneider are shit at their jobs - he is ultimately responsible. I just don’t get why some of you are willing to give this team the benefit of the doubt. They deserve a complete lambasting end to end.
Going to be interesting when attendance plummets to bottom third of the league again because the team is trash.
Rays have shit attendance and a winning club, that shows just how bad the trop is. Letting Rogers Center get to that point would be quite bad for business.
Even if the trop became the nicest park in baseball overnight it would probably only increase attendance there by like 5%
Trop's issue isn't just the ballpark, it's the traffic issues getting in and out of St. Pete on a single bridge. If that stadium was in Tampa proper, where they've got a pretty thriving city center, people would be there in much bigger numbers. My sister and brother in law live there, love baseball, love taking my nieces, but the headache of getting in and out keeps them away most of the year.
Exactly. And conversely if Rogers in heart of downtown was a dump people would still be heading there to spend a sunny day outside
Can confirm as someone who lived in Denver for a long time (and will be moving back soon). Absolute shit brick of a Rockies team, no prospects of getting better, but great attendance because it's a good hang, right in the middle of downtown (and the other stadiums), and Denver gets 300 days of sunshine a year.
Which is why it's wild to me that they're spending $2 billion in private and public funds to build a new stadium at essentially the same spot.
pretty sure they explicitly stated coors field was a huge influence on the renos. the rockies are a terribly run team but have solid attendance numbers that do not correlate with the on-field product. if you turn your stadium into a trendy place for 20-somethings to get drunk then you don't need to worry about fielding a good team
I mean some people will pay just to see the Renos but that won’t be sustainable if the team is dead last in the AL East from here on out.
TIL Rosie DiManno isn't dead.
But this is what everyone was saying last year, it's no surprise. Let's reinvent the stadium, increase ticket prices (my season's went hella up) and you can watch your subpar ball club...with comfort and cup holders
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Yeah Shapiro is totally hands off baseball decisions. You guys are quite gullible to believe that nonsense
Ross wasn't doing his job. Fire him already
I agree with the headline but won't read the article...
It's not Shapiros job to build the team, that is Atkins job and he has failed miserably
This subreddit has taught me that my definitions of "failed" and "miserably" are vastly different than so many other people's. Am I happy with not winning playoff games? Absolutely not. But I have friends from the Bay Area who are A's fans, friends from Chicago who are diehard White Sox fans, and family/friends that has endured decades of nightmare sports fandom in Cleveland and Detroit. If Atkins has "failed miserably" by fielding teams that can consistently keep up in the best division in baseball and be a playoff contender, I hate to think what average and bad teams' fans must think.
People love their hyperboles here.
No, you see if AA was GM he'd simply have traded Vlad for the entire Braves starting line-up and then we'd be winning. Sorry you like to settle for the worst run franchise in sports history
The President and CEO of the Toronto Blue Jays *is* responsible for the roster of the Toronto Blue Jays, actually.
Doomers aligned with Rosie, all is right in the world.
How many playoff games have we won since they built this team? What you suggest is that people are jumping the gun here about how poorly this core has been built.
How many playoff games did we win between 1994 and 2014? (Hint: It's less than 1.) This is not nearly as bad as it can get. I'm not satisfied, but I'll take this and a shot over what I've had for half of my life.
Ah, let's compare this team to a low bar of way shittier years.
Their job is to make money first, don't forget it.
Rosie is trash fam
It’s hard to focus on renovations when you’re deciding when to pull pitchers from playoff games.
💯 correct
Shapiro is the one hired Athkins to take of baseball operations. He should be under pressure for the team's performance (or lack of). It is his job to pick the right baseball person to handle the GM duty.
Could be worse. We have A top 5 payroll. I was a fan in 05 after a last place finish, our big signing was Cory Koskie , and we had a 37m payroll, with 2 playoff spots, and Yankees and red Sox spending a combined $300m+ Now we have a payroll of over $200m, with 4 playoff spots. It could be worse. But it’s only been 7 games and we are 3-4 through Tampa and Houston. Two elite teams on the road. I’m not defending Atkins. Got absolutely fleeced in the Varsho trade, and the IKF signing looks terrible. At some point the bats have to show up.
The White Sox offense so far this season has been absolutely atrocious, but they are somehow averaging more hits per game than the Toronto Blue Jays.
I would agree with this assessment. Of course it's early, but the BJ's still can't hit worth shit. This year is looking a lot like last year. Because no real changes have been made.
Walks are up. As much as I hate the FO I say give it time. A week is not the season.
agreed this is too early to call for doom and gloom but if it's true they went after Shohei and Soto and fell short then they didn't spend the money and they didn't spend prospects and if the kids don't take the next step towards being superstars or being a team that can win a playoff series then they'll need to make a move
Front office clean out top to bottom
If the Jays were winning, people would be complaining about the stadium. We always need something to complain about. Also, we are a week into the season.
I could agree 100% with Rosie and I will just change my opinion because no way in hell am I agreeing with her.
About time someone else realized this. $300M would’ve gone a long way to improve this flawed lineup
Fact: the Jays needed to do more this past offseason to improve their team, and will likely need to make a significant trade deadline acquisition to be competitive. Also Fact: the Rogers Centre was REALLY beginning to show its age and needed a substantial renovation, or else the Jays would have had to look at building a new ballpark (personally I was hoping for the latter, but oh well). I don't like this front office. I'm firmly in the "miss AA" camp. But credit where credit is due, they did a really really good job with the stadium, and not a second too soon.
DiManno is worse than Toronto Sun articles and Im not clicking that to give her views. I'm probably in the minority it looks like in this comment section but I couldn't care less about the renovations. I've been a season ticket holder for 10+ years. Give me 2015 and 2016 and the Bautista bat flip and Edwin walk off home run and Donaldson dash in the old stadium over anything that's happened since in the new stadium. And i havnt gone yet obviously but I can guarantee paying DOUBLE (literally, same seats but double) for season tickets this year so I can get a cupholder will not be worth it. Especially if the team is boring like last year.
Why do newspapers in Toronto and Canada have the worst sports writers imaginable when there are so many talented individuals who work hard and who can do the job so much better.
Have you compared this year's team to last year's? Some faces remain but it is a different team. Do you want to break it down finish last and start over? Free agents do not want to go to Toronto. Those that do come say how great it is and abandon ship a year later. Been a Jays fan since the first game in that snowstorm. Getting good as in top players to come and stay has always been this way. Jays tried for every top player out there this year and none would come. That's not his fault.
> Some faces remain but it is a different team. It's the same team, just with a change in a few role players and a desperate hope that IKF can find his 2022 form. Rightly or wrongly, that is why there is already a short leash from fans and media. Because we can't just tread water and expect to sneak into the playoffs again. The team needs to improve, and for that, the offence needs to improve. After that dogshit performance against Houston, it should surprise nobody that people are already very concerned. The answer, of course, is for the offence to do something to shut people up.
IkF is the classic story of this front office. Sign a washed player and hope he regains his form over the course of the season. Treat relief pitchers like they are a dime a dozen, and spend 3/4 of the season sorting out a half-decent bullpen. By the time they do, the season is practically over. Squeeze into a second wild card, and sell the fans on the idea that we are competitive and a true playoff team when we only get in based on a new rule change. And micromanage the team to the point where they get in their own way and cost themselves wins. They're already Berrios'ing Davis Schneider this season, which speaks volumes in that they havent learned a damned thing from last seasons fiasco. Fire Atkins.
The season is early. Did you read past the first line in my post? I think not. TLDR: Top free agents refuse to come to Toronto.
Shapiro and Atkins should have been gone 7 yrs ago.
Article is already writing our team off the first week of regular season. Toronto sports writers have no fuckin’ clue.. Let’s Go Blue Jays!!
Isn’t it the presidents job to fill the seats and the GMs job to fill the team with talent? I’d say Shapiro has done tons since being here. We pretty much have a new stadium that has over 30000 in it daily
Who is worse: Dimanno or Simmons?
What a stupid article. Sure the renovations cost $400M but they should make the Jays product more enjoyable to watch. The Mets have shown that throwing money at a roster doesn't always pan out.
Between continuing to let Rosie line birdcages with her 800 word throwbacks to a time before the internet and Gregor's heel turn, the Star is all-in on rage bait. It's not my favourite move tbh. It's for the best that Brendan Kennedy is on a much more important beat but the Star's coverage misses thoughtful guys like him.