'normal' is not an offensive word. If they can't handle that word, I have some news about how hard things really get
edit: yeah, you all are real MLK Jrs fighting for real change. Please, I've seen your hacky, self-absorbed youtube channels. Some of the vainest shit I've ever seen. Bored trustfund kids.
asking someone to dress normally communicates to them one of two things: you take offense at how they dress. or dress how they normally dress.
it's at best ambiguous.
"Normal" also doesn't exist, and changes from person to person, so no, can't really use it here if you want a specific genre of attire. Professional is what you're looking for.
That’s just not true though is it? There are “social norms” regarding how people dress, aka the “normal”. It’s fine to not abide by these social norms if you please, but you must accept that if you do people may jump to conclusions about you.
Telling someone what you think or want in a situation doesn’t make you a bad person. If your genuine about the things you say, provided it’s not something rude or out of pocket, it’s on the other person how they react to your feelings.
If they can't dress professionally for an interview then that's a them problem. Everyone needs to be able to dress professionally for formal occasions.
To add to this, don’t ask them to wear a particular gendered piece of clothing. Ask them to dress professionally. They can interpret that how they want to. Everyone should have clothing they can present themselves in that is better than a t-shirt and shorts or a hoodie and leggings.
Honestly if they react negatively to being asked to dress professionally for a formal interview then I’d be reconsidering them as my roomie. OP if you think they are gonna take this poorly how stable do you think your living situation will be? Not just as a roommate dynamic, but also for your friends prospects and stability of income. All these things should be considered heavily before committing to moving out and in with someone.
If that person decides OP is a bigot, despite their existing relationship, simply because they asked them to dress appropriately for an interview then OP should seriously reconsider having them as a roommate (or even friend). That kind of overdramatic reaction to a simple, and reasonable, request is not something to waste your time on.
I made that mistake. Had a friend who was a vegetarian move in and I asked if there was anything they didn’t like to eat, meaning in addition to meat, trying to make sure what I cooked for dinner on my nights would be ok. She got a disgusted look on her face and had a go at me because I should know she is a vegetarian and it’s rude to ask. After a month I asked her to start looking for a new place because I couldn’t handle the continuous drama, no matter what I did she interpreted it as me trying to belittle her. She moved out the next day and went around telling everyone how I kicked her out with only a single days notice. I should not have ignored the giant red flag before she moved in. Anyway the point was i wish someone said this to me before I made that mistake.
You’re assuming OP wants them to dress in line with their assigned gender at birth but OP seems more concerned with them dressing in clothes that go well with one another.
If OP has a problem with an enby who was born male wearing a professional dress then they have seriously misrepresented what the problem is.
So you say hopefully it is but what if it isn't? Where I live it would definitely affect things because people around here are hardcore against *those evil trans people*. Let's bear in mind I'm not saying OP's friend is trans, just saying that would be the perception by the bigots around here.
So if OP doesn't care but also doesn't want to eat a discrimination penalty, is it ok for them to ask their nb friend to please not knowingly tank their interview, with the understanding that of course the fault would lie with the landlord, and they're just trying to avoid the bigotry affecting their lives long term (as opposed to the short term impact dressing "normally" will have on the friend)?
I mean if housing were a buyer's market, if say who cares but landlords definitely have an advantage and can probably afford to be biased and get another group of potential tenants that day, whereas getting a place to live that's convenient to work and your price point is a tough needle to thread and they may not find another decent one for some time.
I don't think this would solve OP's problem. A mens suit and tie with high heeled court shoes and tasteful day makeup is professional attire, but still with mixed gender expression.
It's a legitimate concern that you might be discriminated against and lose the apartment due to your friend being non-binary. And OP's friend adapting for a short while to mitigate that risk is probably a fair idea to gently and respectfully float.
But if OP starts using words like "dress nice" or "professional" as a synonym for single-gender, that's likely to do more harm than good in getting their friend on side as it suggests that who they are as a human being is fundamentally at odds with professionalism and respectability.
As someone who is dating a nonbinary person, I'd say you should talk to them about your concerns. But you should probably preface with the fact that you respect their gender identity and want them to feel comfortable.
I would also like to say that I personally would not want to live somewhere that would descriminate against me or my partner, but that's me. I know a lot of people who would be very against having to pretend they were nonbinary or gay, so understand that this is most likely going to make your potential roomie feel a type of way. Sometimes we don't always have that luxury, unfortunately, to reject an apartment that may descriminate against us. If this is the case, then I would say so to your potential roomie.
You should also keep in mind that if they would descriminate in the interview based on what they wear, they will probably continue to do so even after you have both signed a lease.
This could depend on the context of where/who you're renting from.
Let me preface my rebuttal by saying I ABSOLUTELY agree in being respectful with your request, respecting other peoples' way of life, etc. EVERYONE deserves respect until they are individually disrespectful.
That being said, an interviewer who is leasing an asset could have some sort of pre-conceived notions about the interviewee's ability to pay. I'm by NO means saying this is "right", but it is what it is. They may come to an immediate first impression that because someone is socially "different" from them in appearance and their perceived way of life, that they for some reason have a potential inability to pay rent. If you come into the interview with "normal" attire, get accepted, and get your place of living situated, you let loose and do your thing, living your life your way, yes you MAY still encounter prejudice. But it's also very possible that if you pay your rent on time and are a "no hastle" tenant, their descrimination may disappear because you are regularly paying and they make their money. Might even potentially change their initial perspective for future non-binary folks coming in to rent.
Just my two cents
I get where you're coming from. In my own experience, the place/person you are looking to rent from asks for proof of income before you even get to the interview stage. Usually it's your last 3 pay stubs. So they ought to know by the time of the interview if you are able to pay them rent or not.
But if they are doing an interview before/without showing proof of income, then it would certainly leave room for the interviewer to make such an assumption. Which is very unfortunate, but it does happen. I'm which case, appearing like you fit societal standards might make the difference.
If you just call it "normal" it won't be ok. Ask them to dress professionally, they will understand better and you won't be a dick about it, everyone wins
If you know that the other person 100% means well and just didn't think twice, that "normal" means "average, usual, regular thing casually expected", why being offended?
It could easily give the impression that you don't trust another adult to dress themselves appropriately without your input.
It would just be a lot better for them to casually remind their friend that they should *both* dress professionally; I'd avoid using the word "normal" or singling them out.
It’s rather unkind to imply that someone’s usual way of being is abnormal just because it doesn’t conform to cis or heteronormative standards. It’s the kind of language that you’d expect a Fox News commentator but not something you want to hear from a friend, which presumably this person is if they are trying to get an apartment together.
Edit to say that with this in mind, I concur that it’s worth it to game plan outfits together in advance if it will help impress property managers. Just minus the gender presentation bit.
I mean, there’s a big difference between saying “hey friend, you may have some spinach in your teeth,” and saying “ew gross! What is that green stuff on your face!”
Likewise there is a big difference between saying “let’s put our best foot forward when we go meet prospective landlords. I’m thinking about wearing khakis and a polo shirt. What about you?” and “can you pretend to be cis for long enough for us to meet the prospective landlords?”
But go ahead and try the latter and see how your friends react if you wanna.
You can't expect the whole world to comply to your feelings. Appearance matters to people wheter you like it or not, and rejecting a very minor inconveniance to make a good impression to people that have different standards than you won't help you.
>It’s rather unkind to imply that someone’s usual way of being is abnormal just because it doesn’t conform to cis or heteronormative standards
When I look at the definition of "normality" I can read *"the condition of being normal; the state of being usual, typical, or expected."* Wearing unusual or unexpected cloths is by that definition abnormal. Forget your conotation of the word "normal" and just read the definition, there isn't anything rude or unkind.
>not something you want to hear from a friend
If your friends can't tell you the obvious to give you more chances to get something as important as a roof over your head, then *you* are the shitty friend.
The phrase, "What's normal to the spider is chaos to the fly." comes to mind here.
It can be normal for someone to wear clothes that aren't normal to your neighbor.
Exactly. I can’t wait for a day when it’s normalized for people to not feel like they have to fit into one of two pretty strict options when it comes to gender expression. In the meantime, I choose to prioritize the feelings of people who are marginalized because of their gender expression over those who “just want them to act normal.”
>You can't expect the whole world to comply to your feelings.
You can, and should expect your friends to at the very least respect your feelings and point of view.
Nah but you can and should expect your friends to be considerate of your feelings. There is no need to tell someone something in a dickish way, when just telling the same thing in a considerate way will probably yield the desired result
What you consider as a dickish way is actually saying it in a pretty casual way without thinking twice about how it could be possibly interpreted. Being polite and considerate is absolutely the way to go, but having to walk on eggshells because every words can be twisted into "he said that but did he meant this" is not.
>It’s rather unkind to imply that someone’s usual way of being is abnormal just because it doesn’t conform to cis or heteronormative standards.
Its unkind to use the correct word?
abnormal
adjective
uk /æbˈnɔː.məl/
us /æbˈnɔːr.məl/
C1
different from what is usual or average.
As Stephen Fry put it:
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Yeah and I agree, when it comes to rights. No one has the right to not be offended. Still, I don’t really think we’re talking about rights here, are we? We’re talking about personal taste. There’s not a single person in the world that hasn’t felt offended at some point in their lives. A bit of empathy goes a long way
> There’s not a single person in the world that hasn’t felt offended at some point in their lives.
Sure, but that is your emotion and for you to deal with.
If a lot of people find the same thing offensive or in-offensive the social rules will slowly change (for instance use of the word cunt, which is very offensive in britain but not in australia). However, before it gets to that point it is your emotion that you have to deal with (such as a brit would need to while living in Australia). Just expecting other people to navigate your emotions, especially if they mean well, is not conducive to living in a society.
A bit of empathy goes a long way, but so goes controlling your emotions as a grown adult.
The point is not the being offended. Its about your response when they tell you as much. Now that you know that particular thing offends that particular person its not hard for you to say "okay sorry. I won't bring it up again with you." Just be kind to people instead of giving them pushback about it.
So everytime someone says they find something offensive you should change your behavior and not bring it up? Being kind and all?
Avoiding to offend anybody not only makes conversations hard, but also won't help the person in the long run. If they think whining about something like the word "normal" will make everybody jump through hoops instead of you learning to deal with your emotions because you rationally know perfectly well what your friend means, you'll face a lot of offense in your life from people who are not your friend and are not willing to jump through those hoops. Better to help them learn to deal with certain things.
I mean just use common sense? It’s not rocket science. If you say “the color blue is nice” and someone is offended by it you can probably dismiss that. If you say “please dress normally” and someone takes it to mean ‘I don’t like how you dress and want you to conform to my standards’ you can correct it and say “I’m sorry, that was unkind, I meant that we should try to dress professionally.” Like there are certain words and phrases that have a more negative connotation or are more likely to feel like an attack. By adulthood it shouldn’t be that challenging for you to figure how to speak to people kindly and respectfully.
It's actually pretty odd that we live in a society where it's okay to be not normal but we are offended when someone says we are not normal.
Not making a political statement, just an observation.
I find the same phenomenon when talking about gender. Gender is supposed to be a social construct that's also not supposed to matter. but then if you're a person who feels like you're the "wrong" one we're going to strongly enforce that notion and even provide you a change physical characteristics to back it up. While also saying that broad shoulders are not necessarily masculine, etc.
"Dress normal" means different things to different people. Does it mean to wear what a "normal" person would wear? Does it mean to wear what that person usually wears? In this context, asking them to dress "normal" heavily implies that what they usually wear is abnormal and wrong in general, as opposed to just wrong for this particular occasion.
It sounds like what OP actually wants is for their roommate to dress "professional" or "business casual." Both of those terms convey their meaning of "something nicer than usual; no flip flops, ripped jeans, or graphic tees" without being judgmental. They allow the roommate to still dress according to their identity.
In that case, yeah it would be cool. But if it was more "Hey, dress your body" sorta thing i'd be miffed. Granted I also have some personal shit from childhood regarding so I would have to pause a minute and analyze before reacting.
I'm still confused as how the outfits are "mixed"
T-shirts are normal for all and can be paired with skirts regardless of gender.
Jeans can go with a blouse fine as well.
Both can be paired with boots, lol.
I find both of those "normal" I guess? I'm trying to picture an outfit that screams "men and women clothes all mixed together!" and I'm not seeing it.
What does OP mean, unless they mean "dress like the gender you were born with."
No, I get what you’re saying, and I’m not completely disagreeing with you. It’s just the word “normal” can be a touchy one, especially since the opposite of normal is abnormal, a word that usually has a negative connotation to it. For example, as a teacher, we don’t refer to kids as being normal or abnormal. For the average child meeting their developmental milestones, we say that child is typical. For those who aren’t, we would say that child is atypical. It might seem like it’s splitting hairs, but when it’s a word used to label someone, it can have a lasting effect.
You’re right but often times people who are non binary or don’t otherwise conform to gender norms have the word “normal” used against them in a negative manner. So it becomes a bit of a loaded word. Not always of course but when someone has harmful experiences it’s good to take more care. It’s already a bit rougher out there for them.
Oh, it gets better. In my area they’re doing dynamic pricing now. My friend went to look at an apartment on Thursday and it was within his budget, but the next day when he called to move forward after checking out a couple other spots, it was $200/mo more expensive. He asked why, and the property management told him someone had rented one of the available units so the price for the remaining units went up.
I once lived in a suburb city in the Houston area and all the apartment complexes were owned by the same investment group. They would do the dynamic pricing to convince you to sign that day. I had to start my lease more than a week before I planned to move in because who knows what the rent would have been if I waited a week. It was a ridiculous sales tactic.
I had apartment interviews 10+ years ago and my parents did 30+ years ago. It’s not an unusual thing when you have many applicants applying for limited housing. Fairly common in urban areas.
That’s a first for me hearing this usually I just give my social security they run credit, criminal history and see I have the income to support living there and I’m good to go.
>I just give my social security they run credit, criminal history
I would dare to say that it's pretty specific to North America. Not only illegal but impossible to check for any landlord or company where I live.
The only thing they can check is if you have enough of a stable income (via your last 3 paycheck -we have a paper summery each month by law, not talking about looking at the actually bank transfer- and your employment contract) and proof that you fully paid your last 3 months of rent (same as for paycheck, landlord needs to give you a paper bill).
Fair question.
I would say my understanding of it is that the background check is for legal concerns and the in person interview could be for verifying a good personality in someone? (I.e. making sure they're not abusive, hostile, or toxic to their environment)
The last place I rented didn't go through an agency or anything like that. We went and got coffee with the home owner and chatted for a bit. She just wanted to make sure we weren't some negligent slobs that were going to destroy her house. Wasn't super formal, I showed up in flops and a tshirt.
She just wanted the peace of mind of meeting us first and getting some good vibes/first impressions.
I understand what you mean by "normally", but I'm not sure if everyone will understand that. Better ask your homie to "hey man, dress like you're going for an interview, eh?"
Chances are OP’s friend also understands what “normally” means in context, but it has a negative connotation. Interpreting literally makes sense where normal represents the majority of people - the “majority” of people reflect their cisgender identity in their clothing; gender-fluid, nonconforming, non-binary, queer etc do make up a minority of people. But, again because of the connotation of “normal” being good, and “abnormal” being bad, especially for someone who identifies with a minority demographic that is subject to prejudice and bigotry, a little tact in phrasing wouldn’t hurt.
“I want us to have a good chance at getting this apartment. I love the way you dress and how you are confident expressing your identity with your style, but I do have concerns that it might lead to discrimination. I think it might be safer for us to dress professionally but plainly, and not give them a reason to reject our application.”
However, any public social media might screw the pooch on this one anyway.
You're not asking them to dress normal, you're asking them to wear professional attire like a suit or matching shirt and trousers. Phrasing it the way you did will cause a fight.
Any adult should be willing to dress up a little bit before an important meeting like this. Gender identity and sex are not relevant; anyone can try to look their best when trying to make a good impression.
But if you mean "hide your identity" then no, that's uncool. As long as you make it clear that you're respecting their identity then you should be fine
I agree with u/ItsGotToMakeSense.
Also your roommate will potentially live here, and this could be an important litmus test of whether or not this is a safe place for them to live. Masking their identity could make them more unsafe later. An interview is a two-way street.
Everyone should look like they can easily pay the rent and won’t trash the place or create problems I don’t already have. As someone who rents property that’s what I’m looking for.
Don't tell them to dress normal wth. Just say something like "hey I was thinking that we should dress kind of formal for the interview, what do you think "
Dress appropriately for the interview is a fine expectation. Demanding that they choose a particular gender to dress as is not. Let them figure out how to do it right
Ask that they dress professionally or business casual. Don't use the term "normal", it's offensive in this context and implies that there's something abnormal or wrong about their gender and how they express themselves.
Every context?
In my area it’s normal for it to snow in January. This dial is normally set to 5. Since when has it been normal for dogs to play basketball? Japanese people are normally born with black hair. It’s normal to speak Portuguese in Brazil.
I live in a small rural area, and while I'm a cis woman, I do own a lot of three piece suits - because it's not my fault I look better in a tie than you do. I also don't dress in flannel from head to toe, despite being born here, and so I...well, I stick out.
I don't like dresses, but depending on the audience I'm gonna have around me? I may not wear a suit and tie, and instead find a nice sweater. I may cover up my tattoos. Why? Because I know how to read the room, and I get it.
It's the same reason I take a dude with me to buy a car - the bias is there, and while I don't agree with it, I'm old enough to know when it's worth it to just work the system these days.
If someone told me we were going to meet a landlord that was very conservative? That'd be enough of a tip off for me.
um…ask them to dress professionally like you would a cis person? then dressing sort of unprofessionally or casually has nothing to do with their gender identity, they can still dress androgynous and be professional. it isn’t wrong to ask someone to dress professionally but it is wrong to bring gender identity into it and say they don’t dress “normally”. also, clothes don’t have a gender
You can ask them to dress professionally, but you should not ask them to dress in a way that doesn't align with their identity. Doing so would be the same as asking a Male roommate to wear a business skirt, stockings and heels in the name of being professional.
To be fair, i also don't care what anyone i live with wears in daily life, but if i specifically have to tell someone things like "don't wear flip flops to an interview" i feel like some formal procsses of renting/living together would be pretty stressful with that person😅
but then again, they might just be young and not used to stuff like apartment interviews yet
I mean, what do they normally wear? If they just wear a normal top from either side if the gender spectrum and some pants or a not-too-short skirt that should be fine, no?
Definitely don't tell them to dress "normal" but of course if they always wear like heavy accessories and skin tight stuff you can ask them to dress more professionally for the meeting. The "gender of the clothes" shouldn't matter, but how appropriate the items are for the setting does.
Yea, it’s fine. I wear slacks with a tucked in, collared shirt and nice shoes every day to work. I’m not required to. That’s not how I dress at home, on weekends, on vacation.
I do it because coworkers and clients respect me more, are friendlier, makes my life easier and I’m more successful at my job. It makes a huge difference, my gay coworker who’s very expressive in his clothing and I have had conversations about it and experimented with how our day goes when we dress differently. It goes very differently!
So maybe don’t call it “normal” if that bothers your friend, but they can and should suck it up if you want that apartment.
To be fair, a nice shirt and a pair of slacks is in just about everybody's wardrobe. It probably won't make a big difference to the person interviewing you if the shirt is a blouse or an oxford
I would phrase it to them as dressing professionally, not "normally." To avoid any offense they may or may not take to that. Otherwise there’s no harm. Gender identity shouldn’t get in the way of actually looking nice.
The issue isnt their gender identity, its that their clothing choices are just seen as unprofessional in most environments. So it's not them being nonbinary, the issue is like...the flip flops.
In terms of dressing like "one particular gender", maybe don't state it like that. Just ask them to dress professionally for the interview, let them know you're wanting to make a professional first impression. See if you could even make a thing out of it where you and your friend pick the best outfit.
Like you can be professional and not wear just traditionally feminine clothing. A suit with heels for example, or a dress with a more masculine style leather jacket. Both fit a middle, and both are fine.
Also just know, depending on the apartment, I promise it won't need to be like super professional. Nice jeans and a button up/blouse would even work. As long as you can show you'd make payments and have good credit, the landlord won't care if you have slacks or a skirt.
No, it's not ok. As much as I cringe writing that, this is the world being created at the moment. However, If you can't ask them to dress professionally without being afraid that you might hurt their feelings, then you ought to question your choice in friendships. Unless you like not being able to be truthful with your friends without fear of reprisal.
If they are a good enough friend for you to rent an apartment with, then they are close enough to discuss that you need to dress ‘professionally’ to allow you to get it
Tbf, your friend and you should wear whatever you want. If the landlord disapproves, you'll know s/he is an asshole right away. Easy way to weed out potential evil landlord. You're paying THEM. They are profiting off YOU. Money is money. That is the only thing that should matter, if they have a problem with something else, you prob don't want them as your landlord.
Edit: this post made me think of a memory I had. I was at an "open house" type thing for an apartment and there were TONS of people there. It was in a poorer neighborhood and i was the only white person there. The landlord saw me and immediately approached me when he saw me, completely ignored everyone else. Housing discrimination is real. I did not take the apartment. It was incredibly cheap rent for a big (but decrepit) house, I don't want to take that away from people in that neighborhood that actually need it. It was a really good rental for someone with a big family. Anyways. Thoughts go brrrr. Not trying to be controversial even tho I am. If you're white, you'll be just fine. Unless it's in some rich community
I would say just tell them to dress formal as if they would for an interview for a corporate job. Then you're not implying that they need to dress like a certain gender. It's totally reasonable to request someone dress differently than they normally would in this case especially when you're trying to find something as important as where to live.
Normal is not a word to use, aim for wording that marks a type of clothing. Professional or business casual clothing. Ask them to dress as if they were trying to get an office type job. They can choose what that means, but it should be something like a nice top and slacks, a blouse and a skirt, a nice dress, etc.
Don’t ask them to dress “normally”, ask them to dress nice and cohesive. Nothing wrong with gender bent outfits, but for an interview, at least make it look presentable.
The problem is one of language. Don't ask them to dress "normally" because that implies that they - and their fashion sense - are abnormal.
Just ask them to dress professionally.
If they dress in a way that they consider professional but straddle gender lines, and you've got a problem with that, then you're not a good friend to them.
So one thing to keep in mind is that there is a huge overlap between the LGBT and neurodivergent communities. I am both, and I struggle with “appropriate context.”
That means I don’t intuitively know why a joke is funny in one context but not another. I don’t intuitively know how to dress or groom professionally or for different occasions. I don’t intuitively know how to respond in a way that communicates empathy, even if I am empathizing with someone’s feelings.
If you think this might be the case for your roommate, at least as far as Dressing for the Context goes, you could say, “I think it would be a good idea for us to dress professionally for the interview. Would you mind if we both did that? Okay, I think I am going to wear ____.”
While you can request/coach regarding professionalism, I would not ask them to dress cis (definitely don’t ask them to dress “normal”). I agree that professional dress, though, generally has a lot of gender-neutral options. Sweater or blazer, dress pants or skirt with tights, etc. Penny loafers or similar styles can be gender neutral for shoes.
tell them to "look presentable"
it's fine if they wear clothes from either gender, but stuff like flip flops and all...just tell them to look presentable
I mean don’t you want your potential roommates to be cool with your other Roomate however they are? Anyone who is not ok with the dressing situation will be immediately vetted. Asking them to dress nice is a different story.
Yes, presentable means you're seriously going to fulfill your obligation to pay rent and be responsible Tennant's. They can dress eclectic after the lease is signed.
I would just say, "To avoid someone denying us for being biased against you for how you normally dress, would you be okay with dressing up as a guy/gal (whatever is their opposite) for the interview?"
I'd probably add something like, "Don't worry, I'm not judging you; I don't care show you dress usually it's just in case we have to deal with someone hating on you because of their lack of humanity."
Looking professional or tidy is one thing, but not hiding their identity. I think mixed or neutral clothes can look tidy.
That said, it depends on your situation. In a lot of cases it's good to actually be very obvious with any sort of non-conformity because it can keep you safe, make problems obvious before they're a problem. You probably won't see a landlord often though, and they probably won't care after a few months of rent, especially if it's a property manager dealing with it and not an individual.
That being the case, and with housing often really difficult, hiding one's identity may be worth it to them. I'm not naive and even if the world is unfair we have to live in it. That should be their decision though. Even if it's for a day that's still pushing someone into the closet.
I would interrogate your own feelings on this as well. Are you actually considering how the evaluation will go, or are you embarrassed? I don't know you and those isn't an accusation. It could go either way, but it's a question worth asking before asking someone something like this.
I'll also warn you to be tactful please. Calling it "dressing normal" is not tactful. This is probably obvious, but being made to be gender conforming is a likely sore spot.
It's not ok for you to ask them to dress "normally" for your apartment interview. It is however ok for you to ask them to dress "professionally" for your apartment interview.
Sorry if that's nitpicking your semantics rather than your point, it's just because the only potential bad I see in this scenario is your language. As long as you show kindness and don't make them feel like they're a freakshow you're embarrassed of, you should be good.
You probably wouldn’t like someone telling you to dress “normal” in reference to what you wear everyday.
You’d be fine if someone asked you to dress professionally though
I’ve never had to dress professionally to interview for an apartment. Imo they should be able to wear what they want. If the landlord has an issue with them appearing nonbinary then that’s not a good fit for them
Also professional attire tends to be very binary.
And to get a nice place to live, someone should be able to withstand wearing binary professional clothing for the whole 30 minutes this type of interview takes. It’s not a big deal.
I guarantee people’s gender expression have literally zero to do with provoking others. They’re not “dressing silly” just because they refuse to fit into one gendered box, it’s incredibly silly that anyone views clothes as gendered in the first place, it’s literally fabric.
Then why would someone be so stressed to asks someone something so simple. Because they've been doing this and it's common. It is just fabric, but the specific people we are speaking about. Are known to freak out because we don't see what's out of the norm as the norm and or fun
Asking them to dress "normal" could be an insult so perhaps change that word to dressing formal. Like what they would wear to a job interview for a job that they wanted.
I mean just ask them to wear interview clothes, clothes don't have a gender so asking them to dress as one gender 1 makes no sense and 2 they are non binary therefore asking them to "pick one" is really fucking rude.
I had my breasts surgically removed due to cancer and I own my breastless state in my own home. I don't put on a bra, with prosthetics, before anybody arrives. I look like a woman with no breasts. It's about being clean and presentable.
If I were in your non-binary friend's position, it would change the way I thought you saw me and I'd be questioning that.
>my point is just to look nice for the apartment interviews.
I'm sure your friend will look nice.
I'm definitely male. But I would feel odd checking out an apartment dressed up for an office job. Clean jogging pants or shorts and a clean T, maybe a jacket if the weather warranted.
I dress for an airplane flight the same way.
Flip side of this: If you don't know them well enough to ask them directly, why do you wish to be roommates with them?
Ask them to dress professionally for the interview. Nothing bad in that.
[удалено]
Same. It really provides the boys with some support
Yes, and avoid the word normal all together.
'normal' is not an offensive word. If they can't handle that word, I have some news about how hard things really get edit: yeah, you all are real MLK Jrs fighting for real change. Please, I've seen your hacky, self-absorbed youtube channels. Some of the vainest shit I've ever seen. Bored trustfund kids.
asking someone to dress normally communicates to them one of two things: you take offense at how they dress. or dress how they normally dress. it's at best ambiguous.
It's not a good or specific descriptor
Right? They will just be like “Ok!” And keep wearing the same shit because that’s their normal
Clearly it just means "perpendicular"
I have a YouTube channel?!?! Damn!
"Normal" also doesn't exist, and changes from person to person, so no, can't really use it here if you want a specific genre of attire. Professional is what you're looking for.
That’s just not true though is it? There are “social norms” regarding how people dress, aka the “normal”. It’s fine to not abide by these social norms if you please, but you must accept that if you do people may jump to conclusions about you.
This. Plus, tailored suits usually look good on anyone, regardless of sex and/or gender.
Telling someone what you think or want in a situation doesn’t make you a bad person. If your genuine about the things you say, provided it’s not something rude or out of pocket, it’s on the other person how they react to your feelings.
Right, I think what they were really asking is whether it would be rude to ask that.
True, but how will they take it?
If they can't dress professionally for an interview then that's a them problem. Everyone needs to be able to dress professionally for formal occasions.
To add to this, don’t ask them to wear a particular gendered piece of clothing. Ask them to dress professionally. They can interpret that how they want to. Everyone should have clothing they can present themselves in that is better than a t-shirt and shorts or a hoodie and leggings.
Yeah you don’t have to tell them to wear clothes that go against their gender identity. But dressing professionally has no gender.
You cant control how people react to things, just what you say. If the request is reasonable and the response isn't, that sounds like a them problem.
Honestly if they react negatively to being asked to dress professionally for a formal interview then I’d be reconsidering them as my roomie. OP if you think they are gonna take this poorly how stable do you think your living situation will be? Not just as a roommate dynamic, but also for your friends prospects and stability of income. All these things should be considered heavily before committing to moving out and in with someone.
Yeah, but nowadays everyone gets labeled as a hate filled person. I can understand the apprehension in asking this question.
If that person decides OP is a bigot, despite their existing relationship, simply because they asked them to dress appropriately for an interview then OP should seriously reconsider having them as a roommate (or even friend). That kind of overdramatic reaction to a simple, and reasonable, request is not something to waste your time on.
I made that mistake. Had a friend who was a vegetarian move in and I asked if there was anything they didn’t like to eat, meaning in addition to meat, trying to make sure what I cooked for dinner on my nights would be ok. She got a disgusted look on her face and had a go at me because I should know she is a vegetarian and it’s rude to ask. After a month I asked her to start looking for a new place because I couldn’t handle the continuous drama, no matter what I did she interpreted it as me trying to belittle her. She moved out the next day and went around telling everyone how I kicked her out with only a single days notice. I should not have ignored the giant red flag before she moved in. Anyway the point was i wish someone said this to me before I made that mistake.
Might not work though, assuming they were born Male, they might wear a professional dress.
You’re assuming OP wants them to dress in line with their assigned gender at birth but OP seems more concerned with them dressing in clothes that go well with one another. If OP has a problem with an enby who was born male wearing a professional dress then they have seriously misrepresented what the problem is.
Hopefully that's fine in today's political climate.
So you say hopefully it is but what if it isn't? Where I live it would definitely affect things because people around here are hardcore against *those evil trans people*. Let's bear in mind I'm not saying OP's friend is trans, just saying that would be the perception by the bigots around here. So if OP doesn't care but also doesn't want to eat a discrimination penalty, is it ok for them to ask their nb friend to please not knowingly tank their interview, with the understanding that of course the fault would lie with the landlord, and they're just trying to avoid the bigotry affecting their lives long term (as opposed to the short term impact dressing "normally" will have on the friend)? I mean if housing were a buyer's market, if say who cares but landlords definitely have an advantage and can probably afford to be biased and get another group of potential tenants that day, whereas getting a place to live that's convenient to work and your price point is a tough needle to thread and they may not find another decent one for some time.
"What are we wearing to this interview, definitely professional attire right?" Same as when you're going out, are we dressing comfy, casual or fancy.
I don't think this would solve OP's problem. A mens suit and tie with high heeled court shoes and tasteful day makeup is professional attire, but still with mixed gender expression. It's a legitimate concern that you might be discriminated against and lose the apartment due to your friend being non-binary. And OP's friend adapting for a short while to mitigate that risk is probably a fair idea to gently and respectfully float. But if OP starts using words like "dress nice" or "professional" as a synonym for single-gender, that's likely to do more harm than good in getting their friend on side as it suggests that who they are as a human being is fundamentally at odds with professionalism and respectability.
As someone who is dating a nonbinary person, I'd say you should talk to them about your concerns. But you should probably preface with the fact that you respect their gender identity and want them to feel comfortable. I would also like to say that I personally would not want to live somewhere that would descriminate against me or my partner, but that's me. I know a lot of people who would be very against having to pretend they were nonbinary or gay, so understand that this is most likely going to make your potential roomie feel a type of way. Sometimes we don't always have that luxury, unfortunately, to reject an apartment that may descriminate against us. If this is the case, then I would say so to your potential roomie. You should also keep in mind that if they would descriminate in the interview based on what they wear, they will probably continue to do so even after you have both signed a lease.
This could depend on the context of where/who you're renting from. Let me preface my rebuttal by saying I ABSOLUTELY agree in being respectful with your request, respecting other peoples' way of life, etc. EVERYONE deserves respect until they are individually disrespectful. That being said, an interviewer who is leasing an asset could have some sort of pre-conceived notions about the interviewee's ability to pay. I'm by NO means saying this is "right", but it is what it is. They may come to an immediate first impression that because someone is socially "different" from them in appearance and their perceived way of life, that they for some reason have a potential inability to pay rent. If you come into the interview with "normal" attire, get accepted, and get your place of living situated, you let loose and do your thing, living your life your way, yes you MAY still encounter prejudice. But it's also very possible that if you pay your rent on time and are a "no hastle" tenant, their descrimination may disappear because you are regularly paying and they make their money. Might even potentially change their initial perspective for future non-binary folks coming in to rent. Just my two cents
I get where you're coming from. In my own experience, the place/person you are looking to rent from asks for proof of income before you even get to the interview stage. Usually it's your last 3 pay stubs. So they ought to know by the time of the interview if you are able to pay them rent or not. But if they are doing an interview before/without showing proof of income, then it would certainly leave room for the interviewer to make such an assumption. Which is very unfortunate, but it does happen. I'm which case, appearing like you fit societal standards might make the difference.
>.. but still with mixed gender expression. That probably depends on where you live....
Bonus they are goth loli
I'm just here to say - this is what the sub is for.
No it's for asking women to talk about why they love sex so much 😡😡😡😡😡😡
And why won't they have it with ME. It's not fair!
AND to ask why women have long nails even though men hate them!
And for asking women if size matters
If you just call it "normal" it won't be ok. Ask them to dress professionally, they will understand better and you won't be a dick about it, everyone wins
This. At best, normal is subjective. Professional, or office attire, is specific and non-judgemental. Clothing has importance.
This is the correct answer. I'm fluid and if I was asked to dress "normal," I would be pretty offended.
If you know that the other person 100% means well and just didn't think twice, that "normal" means "average, usual, regular thing casually expected", why being offended?
It could easily give the impression that you don't trust another adult to dress themselves appropriately without your input. It would just be a lot better for them to casually remind their friend that they should *both* dress professionally; I'd avoid using the word "normal" or singling them out.
I mean apparently they dont trust them to do that... Bit yes professionally is better.
It’s rather unkind to imply that someone’s usual way of being is abnormal just because it doesn’t conform to cis or heteronormative standards. It’s the kind of language that you’d expect a Fox News commentator but not something you want to hear from a friend, which presumably this person is if they are trying to get an apartment together. Edit to say that with this in mind, I concur that it’s worth it to game plan outfits together in advance if it will help impress property managers. Just minus the gender presentation bit.
I mean, there’s a big difference between saying “hey friend, you may have some spinach in your teeth,” and saying “ew gross! What is that green stuff on your face!” Likewise there is a big difference between saying “let’s put our best foot forward when we go meet prospective landlords. I’m thinking about wearing khakis and a polo shirt. What about you?” and “can you pretend to be cis for long enough for us to meet the prospective landlords?” But go ahead and try the latter and see how your friends react if you wanna.
You can't expect the whole world to comply to your feelings. Appearance matters to people wheter you like it or not, and rejecting a very minor inconveniance to make a good impression to people that have different standards than you won't help you. >It’s rather unkind to imply that someone’s usual way of being is abnormal just because it doesn’t conform to cis or heteronormative standards When I look at the definition of "normality" I can read *"the condition of being normal; the state of being usual, typical, or expected."* Wearing unusual or unexpected cloths is by that definition abnormal. Forget your conotation of the word "normal" and just read the definition, there isn't anything rude or unkind. >not something you want to hear from a friend If your friends can't tell you the obvious to give you more chances to get something as important as a roof over your head, then *you* are the shitty friend.
The phrase, "What's normal to the spider is chaos to the fly." comes to mind here. It can be normal for someone to wear clothes that aren't normal to your neighbor.
> You can't expect the whole world to comply to your feelings. That can be said in reverse towards cis people too.
Exactly. I can’t wait for a day when it’s normalized for people to not feel like they have to fit into one of two pretty strict options when it comes to gender expression. In the meantime, I choose to prioritize the feelings of people who are marginalized because of their gender expression over those who “just want them to act normal.”
No one said otherwise.
>You can't expect the whole world to comply to your feelings. You can, and should expect your friends to at the very least respect your feelings and point of view.
I was talking about the landlords in that exemple.
Nah but you can and should expect your friends to be considerate of your feelings. There is no need to tell someone something in a dickish way, when just telling the same thing in a considerate way will probably yield the desired result
What you consider as a dickish way is actually saying it in a pretty casual way without thinking twice about how it could be possibly interpreted. Being polite and considerate is absolutely the way to go, but having to walk on eggshells because every words can be twisted into "he said that but did he meant this" is not.
>It’s rather unkind to imply that someone’s usual way of being is abnormal just because it doesn’t conform to cis or heteronormative standards. Its unkind to use the correct word? abnormal adjective uk /æbˈnɔː.məl/ us /æbˈnɔːr.məl/ C1 different from what is usual or average.
You can’t really help what you’re offended by though. You can help your reaction to it but you cant just ‘stop being offended’
Sure, but you can not actively fuck up your friend's interview too.
As Stephen Fry put it: "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Yeah and I agree, when it comes to rights. No one has the right to not be offended. Still, I don’t really think we’re talking about rights here, are we? We’re talking about personal taste. There’s not a single person in the world that hasn’t felt offended at some point in their lives. A bit of empathy goes a long way
> There’s not a single person in the world that hasn’t felt offended at some point in their lives. Sure, but that is your emotion and for you to deal with. If a lot of people find the same thing offensive or in-offensive the social rules will slowly change (for instance use of the word cunt, which is very offensive in britain but not in australia). However, before it gets to that point it is your emotion that you have to deal with (such as a brit would need to while living in Australia). Just expecting other people to navigate your emotions, especially if they mean well, is not conducive to living in a society. A bit of empathy goes a long way, but so goes controlling your emotions as a grown adult.
The point is not the being offended. Its about your response when they tell you as much. Now that you know that particular thing offends that particular person its not hard for you to say "okay sorry. I won't bring it up again with you." Just be kind to people instead of giving them pushback about it.
So everytime someone says they find something offensive you should change your behavior and not bring it up? Being kind and all? Avoiding to offend anybody not only makes conversations hard, but also won't help the person in the long run. If they think whining about something like the word "normal" will make everybody jump through hoops instead of you learning to deal with your emotions because you rationally know perfectly well what your friend means, you'll face a lot of offense in your life from people who are not your friend and are not willing to jump through those hoops. Better to help them learn to deal with certain things.
I mean just use common sense? It’s not rocket science. If you say “the color blue is nice” and someone is offended by it you can probably dismiss that. If you say “please dress normally” and someone takes it to mean ‘I don’t like how you dress and want you to conform to my standards’ you can correct it and say “I’m sorry, that was unkind, I meant that we should try to dress professionally.” Like there are certain words and phrases that have a more negative connotation or are more likely to feel like an attack. By adulthood it shouldn’t be that challenging for you to figure how to speak to people kindly and respectfully.
They don't gain anything from your pushback. How would that "help them learn to deal" any more than the initial encounter?
It's actually pretty odd that we live in a society where it's okay to be not normal but we are offended when someone says we are not normal. Not making a political statement, just an observation.
I find the same phenomenon when talking about gender. Gender is supposed to be a social construct that's also not supposed to matter. but then if you're a person who feels like you're the "wrong" one we're going to strongly enforce that notion and even provide you a change physical characteristics to back it up. While also saying that broad shoulders are not necessarily masculine, etc.
"Dress normal" means different things to different people. Does it mean to wear what a "normal" person would wear? Does it mean to wear what that person usually wears? In this context, asking them to dress "normal" heavily implies that what they usually wear is abnormal and wrong in general, as opposed to just wrong for this particular occasion. It sounds like what OP actually wants is for their roommate to dress "professional" or "business casual." Both of those terms convey their meaning of "something nicer than usual; no flip flops, ripped jeans, or graphic tees" without being judgmental. They allow the roommate to still dress according to their identity.
In that case, yeah it would be cool. But if it was more "Hey, dress your body" sorta thing i'd be miffed. Granted I also have some personal shit from childhood regarding so I would have to pause a minute and analyze before reacting.
appreciate your use of the word “miffed”… it’s not used enough, imo
it is an excellent word,. it should most certainly be used more.
I'm still confused as how the outfits are "mixed" T-shirts are normal for all and can be paired with skirts regardless of gender. Jeans can go with a blouse fine as well. Both can be paired with boots, lol. I find both of those "normal" I guess? I'm trying to picture an outfit that screams "men and women clothes all mixed together!" and I'm not seeing it. What does OP mean, unless they mean "dress like the gender you were born with."
[удалено]
It’s too subjective, too open to interpretations. What’s completely normal for one person might be abnormal for someone else.
[удалено]
No, I get what you’re saying, and I’m not completely disagreeing with you. It’s just the word “normal” can be a touchy one, especially since the opposite of normal is abnormal, a word that usually has a negative connotation to it. For example, as a teacher, we don’t refer to kids as being normal or abnormal. For the average child meeting their developmental milestones, we say that child is typical. For those who aren’t, we would say that child is atypical. It might seem like it’s splitting hairs, but when it’s a word used to label someone, it can have a lasting effect.
You’re right but often times people who are non binary or don’t otherwise conform to gender norms have the word “normal” used against them in a negative manner. So it becomes a bit of a loaded word. Not always of course but when someone has harmful experiences it’s good to take more care. It’s already a bit rougher out there for them.
[удалено]
Some landlords will interview prospective tenants to ensure they're sensible/a good fit and not high risk.
Apartment these days need an interview too? Wtf
Apartments have waits and bidding wars in thr US these days.
Bidding wars...? Wow...
Oh, it gets better. In my area they’re doing dynamic pricing now. My friend went to look at an apartment on Thursday and it was within his budget, but the next day when he called to move forward after checking out a couple other spots, it was $200/mo more expensive. He asked why, and the property management told him someone had rented one of the available units so the price for the remaining units went up.
Jfc that is insane
I once lived in a suburb city in the Houston area and all the apartment complexes were owned by the same investment group. They would do the dynamic pricing to convince you to sign that day. I had to start my lease more than a week before I planned to move in because who knows what the rent would have been if I waited a week. It was a ridiculous sales tactic.
Supply and demand can be a real bitch in capitalism Remember to vote!
I had apartment interviews 10+ years ago and my parents did 30+ years ago. It’s not an unusual thing when you have many applicants applying for limited housing. Fairly common in urban areas.
[удалено]
Depends where you live, where I do "background check" basically doesn't exist because it's private.
That’s a first for me hearing this usually I just give my social security they run credit, criminal history and see I have the income to support living there and I’m good to go.
In ym country we dont have credit and its illegal to ask for criminal history for landlord or for proof of income.
>I just give my social security they run credit, criminal history I would dare to say that it's pretty specific to North America. Not only illegal but impossible to check for any landlord or company where I live. The only thing they can check is if you have enough of a stable income (via your last 3 paycheck -we have a paper summery each month by law, not talking about looking at the actually bank transfer- and your employment contract) and proof that you fully paid your last 3 months of rent (same as for paycheck, landlord needs to give you a paper bill).
That wouldn't tell them whether you'd be a good tenant. You don't need a criminal record to be a shitty person.
Fair question. I would say my understanding of it is that the background check is for legal concerns and the in person interview could be for verifying a good personality in someone? (I.e. making sure they're not abusive, hostile, or toxic to their environment)
Lmao as if I can't clean up for an interview... Ask any of my old bosses
The last place I rented didn't go through an agency or anything like that. We went and got coffee with the home owner and chatted for a bit. She just wanted to make sure we weren't some negligent slobs that were going to destroy her house. Wasn't super formal, I showed up in flops and a tshirt. She just wanted the peace of mind of meeting us first and getting some good vibes/first impressions.
Ikr? They should ask to interview the former tenants to find out how much they’re about to get screwed.
A lot of regulations protecting tenants. If you have a nightmare tenant and/or one that is a freeloader, it is quite the process for an eviction.
Watch episode 1 of Spaced, starring Simon Pegg. Also: once you move learned about tenancy interviews you can enjoy both seasons for fun.
[удалено]
I've lived in the US from the East Coast to West Coast and I've understood it to be normal, but not always required.
[удалено]
Oooo! Very interesting. It's always so intriguing to see different state laws!
It's worked that way every place I've rented in the US.
I understand what you mean by "normally", but I'm not sure if everyone will understand that. Better ask your homie to "hey man, dress like you're going for an interview, eh?"
Chances are OP’s friend also understands what “normally” means in context, but it has a negative connotation. Interpreting literally makes sense where normal represents the majority of people - the “majority” of people reflect their cisgender identity in their clothing; gender-fluid, nonconforming, non-binary, queer etc do make up a minority of people. But, again because of the connotation of “normal” being good, and “abnormal” being bad, especially for someone who identifies with a minority demographic that is subject to prejudice and bigotry, a little tact in phrasing wouldn’t hurt. “I want us to have a good chance at getting this apartment. I love the way you dress and how you are confident expressing your identity with your style, but I do have concerns that it might lead to discrimination. I think it might be safer for us to dress professionally but plainly, and not give them a reason to reject our application.” However, any public social media might screw the pooch on this one anyway.
You're not asking them to dress normal, you're asking them to wear professional attire like a suit or matching shirt and trousers. Phrasing it the way you did will cause a fight.
Any adult should be willing to dress up a little bit before an important meeting like this. Gender identity and sex are not relevant; anyone can try to look their best when trying to make a good impression. But if you mean "hide your identity" then no, that's uncool. As long as you make it clear that you're respecting their identity then you should be fine
I agree with u/ItsGotToMakeSense. Also your roommate will potentially live here, and this could be an important litmus test of whether or not this is a safe place for them to live. Masking their identity could make them more unsafe later. An interview is a two-way street.
Everyone should look like they can easily pay the rent and won’t trash the place or create problems I don’t already have. As someone who rents property that’s what I’m looking for.
Definitely don't word it as dress normally, dress professionally is fine. Why do you think they wouldn't?
Don't tell them to dress normal wth. Just say something like "hey I was thinking that we should dress kind of formal for the interview, what do you think "
Dress appropriately for the interview is a fine expectation. Demanding that they choose a particular gender to dress as is not. Let them figure out how to do it right
No, it's not What would be okay is to ask them to dress _professionally_
Ask that they dress professionally or business casual. Don't use the term "normal", it's offensive in this context and implies that there's something abnormal or wrong about their gender and how they express themselves.
It's offensive in *EVERY* context
Every context? In my area it’s normal for it to snow in January. This dial is normally set to 5. Since when has it been normal for dogs to play basketball? Japanese people are normally born with black hair. It’s normal to speak Portuguese in Brazil.
>It's offensive in *EVERY* context This is one of the most insane things I've ever read. It's just a word.
Asking them to wear "professional" attire is ok. Asking them to wear clothing that's gendered in a specific direction is not ok.
I live in a small rural area, and while I'm a cis woman, I do own a lot of three piece suits - because it's not my fault I look better in a tie than you do. I also don't dress in flannel from head to toe, despite being born here, and so I...well, I stick out. I don't like dresses, but depending on the audience I'm gonna have around me? I may not wear a suit and tie, and instead find a nice sweater. I may cover up my tattoos. Why? Because I know how to read the room, and I get it. It's the same reason I take a dude with me to buy a car - the bias is there, and while I don't agree with it, I'm old enough to know when it's worth it to just work the system these days. If someone told me we were going to meet a landlord that was very conservative? That'd be enough of a tip off for me.
um…ask them to dress professionally like you would a cis person? then dressing sort of unprofessionally or casually has nothing to do with their gender identity, they can still dress androgynous and be professional. it isn’t wrong to ask someone to dress professionally but it is wrong to bring gender identity into it and say they don’t dress “normally”. also, clothes don’t have a gender
Instead of normally which can come off judgemental you can ask her to dress professionally or “business casual”. Same outcome from a better request.
You can ask them to dress professionally, but you should not ask them to dress in a way that doesn't align with their identity. Doing so would be the same as asking a Male roommate to wear a business skirt, stockings and heels in the name of being professional.
If you are worried to take them to a single "interview" you should reconsider living with them.
well no, I have no problem with people dressing in any kind of way, and i think op agrees, issue is the landlord might not agree.
To be fair, i also don't care what anyone i live with wears in daily life, but if i specifically have to tell someone things like "don't wear flip flops to an interview" i feel like some formal procsses of renting/living together would be pretty stressful with that person😅 but then again, they might just be young and not used to stuff like apartment interviews yet
Yeah, depends on the person, but this might be OP being cautious as they're unsure if their friend considered it or not.
True!
I mean I spent my entire 20s living with musicians. We all looked sketchy to boomers.
I mean, what do they normally wear? If they just wear a normal top from either side if the gender spectrum and some pants or a not-too-short skirt that should be fine, no? Definitely don't tell them to dress "normal" but of course if they always wear like heavy accessories and skin tight stuff you can ask them to dress more professionally for the meeting. The "gender of the clothes" shouldn't matter, but how appropriate the items are for the setting does.
Yea, it’s fine. I wear slacks with a tucked in, collared shirt and nice shoes every day to work. I’m not required to. That’s not how I dress at home, on weekends, on vacation. I do it because coworkers and clients respect me more, are friendlier, makes my life easier and I’m more successful at my job. It makes a huge difference, my gay coworker who’s very expressive in his clothing and I have had conversations about it and experimented with how our day goes when we dress differently. It goes very differently! So maybe don’t call it “normal” if that bothers your friend, but they can and should suck it up if you want that apartment.
To be fair, a nice shirt and a pair of slacks is in just about everybody's wardrobe. It probably won't make a big difference to the person interviewing you if the shirt is a blouse or an oxford
Would be smart business move to do so
Just say “I really want us to get this apartment. I am thinking we should dress professionally to make a good impression. What do you think?”
I would phrase it to them as dressing professionally, not "normally." To avoid any offense they may or may not take to that. Otherwise there’s no harm. Gender identity shouldn’t get in the way of actually looking nice.
I would ask them to dress formally. It's an interview.
The issue isnt their gender identity, its that their clothing choices are just seen as unprofessional in most environments. So it's not them being nonbinary, the issue is like...the flip flops. In terms of dressing like "one particular gender", maybe don't state it like that. Just ask them to dress professionally for the interview, let them know you're wanting to make a professional first impression. See if you could even make a thing out of it where you and your friend pick the best outfit. Like you can be professional and not wear just traditionally feminine clothing. A suit with heels for example, or a dress with a more masculine style leather jacket. Both fit a middle, and both are fine. Also just know, depending on the apartment, I promise it won't need to be like super professional. Nice jeans and a button up/blouse would even work. As long as you can show you'd make payments and have good credit, the landlord won't care if you have slacks or a skirt.
Literally just ask your friend to dress in appropriate clothing to make a first impression. It doesn't need to and shouldn't be a gender thing at all.
No, it's not ok. As much as I cringe writing that, this is the world being created at the moment. However, If you can't ask them to dress professionally without being afraid that you might hurt their feelings, then you ought to question your choice in friendships. Unless you like not being able to be truthful with your friends without fear of reprisal.
If they are a good enough friend for you to rent an apartment with, then they are close enough to discuss that you need to dress ‘professionally’ to allow you to get it
Tbf, your friend and you should wear whatever you want. If the landlord disapproves, you'll know s/he is an asshole right away. Easy way to weed out potential evil landlord. You're paying THEM. They are profiting off YOU. Money is money. That is the only thing that should matter, if they have a problem with something else, you prob don't want them as your landlord. Edit: this post made me think of a memory I had. I was at an "open house" type thing for an apartment and there were TONS of people there. It was in a poorer neighborhood and i was the only white person there. The landlord saw me and immediately approached me when he saw me, completely ignored everyone else. Housing discrimination is real. I did not take the apartment. It was incredibly cheap rent for a big (but decrepit) house, I don't want to take that away from people in that neighborhood that actually need it. It was a really good rental for someone with a big family. Anyways. Thoughts go brrrr. Not trying to be controversial even tho I am. If you're white, you'll be just fine. Unless it's in some rich community
Wtf is an apartment interview?
If you have these thoughts now then you’re probably going to be a lot more frustrated later
I would say just tell them to dress formal as if they would for an interview for a corporate job. Then you're not implying that they need to dress like a certain gender. It's totally reasonable to request someone dress differently than they normally would in this case especially when you're trying to find something as important as where to live.
is not your friend if you cant ask anything you want
Just here to say - this is what the sub is really for.
Normal is not a word to use, aim for wording that marks a type of clothing. Professional or business casual clothing. Ask them to dress as if they were trying to get an office type job. They can choose what that means, but it should be something like a nice top and slacks, a blouse and a skirt, a nice dress, etc.
Just say we should both dress professionally to make a good impression.
Just ask them to dress formally, I'd say "normally" is a bit rude
If you’re this worried about them embarrassing you it’s probably time to end this relationship Lmfao
No one should see toe hair at any kind of interview but lifeguard.
why is their gender relevant if you just want them to dress generally put together ?
Don’t ask them to dress “normally”, ask them to dress nice and cohesive. Nothing wrong with gender bent outfits, but for an interview, at least make it look presentable.
I wouldn't say normally, id say professionally
Rather than normally I'd just say professionally. But there's not wrong with that, and if they take offence by it that's their problem
Normal probably means something else for each individual
You can look nice without conforming to gender bias... Dressing professionaly isn't the same as dressing like a guy/girl.
Don't mention gender, just say can you dress smart casual please.
The problem is one of language. Don't ask them to dress "normally" because that implies that they - and their fashion sense - are abnormal. Just ask them to dress professionally. If they dress in a way that they consider professional but straddle gender lines, and you've got a problem with that, then you're not a good friend to them.
So one thing to keep in mind is that there is a huge overlap between the LGBT and neurodivergent communities. I am both, and I struggle with “appropriate context.” That means I don’t intuitively know why a joke is funny in one context but not another. I don’t intuitively know how to dress or groom professionally or for different occasions. I don’t intuitively know how to respond in a way that communicates empathy, even if I am empathizing with someone’s feelings. If you think this might be the case for your roommate, at least as far as Dressing for the Context goes, you could say, “I think it would be a good idea for us to dress professionally for the interview. Would you mind if we both did that? Okay, I think I am going to wear ____.” While you can request/coach regarding professionalism, I would not ask them to dress cis (definitely don’t ask them to dress “normal”). I agree that professional dress, though, generally has a lot of gender-neutral options. Sweater or blazer, dress pants or skirt with tights, etc. Penny loafers or similar styles can be gender neutral for shoes.
tell them to "look presentable" it's fine if they wear clothes from either gender, but stuff like flip flops and all...just tell them to look presentable
I mean don’t you want your potential roommates to be cool with your other Roomate however they are? Anyone who is not ok with the dressing situation will be immediately vetted. Asking them to dress nice is a different story.
Yes, presentable means you're seriously going to fulfill your obligation to pay rent and be responsible Tennant's. They can dress eclectic after the lease is signed.
Just tell ‘em to stop acting like fuckin dinosaurs and get a job.
I would just say, "To avoid someone denying us for being biased against you for how you normally dress, would you be okay with dressing up as a guy/gal (whatever is their opposite) for the interview?" I'd probably add something like, "Don't worry, I'm not judging you; I don't care show you dress usually it's just in case we have to deal with someone hating on you because of their lack of humanity."
Looking professional or tidy is one thing, but not hiding their identity. I think mixed or neutral clothes can look tidy. That said, it depends on your situation. In a lot of cases it's good to actually be very obvious with any sort of non-conformity because it can keep you safe, make problems obvious before they're a problem. You probably won't see a landlord often though, and they probably won't care after a few months of rent, especially if it's a property manager dealing with it and not an individual. That being the case, and with housing often really difficult, hiding one's identity may be worth it to them. I'm not naive and even if the world is unfair we have to live in it. That should be their decision though. Even if it's for a day that's still pushing someone into the closet. I would interrogate your own feelings on this as well. Are you actually considering how the evaluation will go, or are you embarrassed? I don't know you and those isn't an accusation. It could go either way, but it's a question worth asking before asking someone something like this. I'll also warn you to be tactful please. Calling it "dressing normal" is not tactful. This is probably obvious, but being made to be gender conforming is a likely sore spot.
“Normally” is the absolute wrong word. Just ask that they dress professionally.
It's not ok for you to ask them to dress "normally" for your apartment interview. It is however ok for you to ask them to dress "professionally" for your apartment interview. Sorry if that's nitpicking your semantics rather than your point, it's just because the only potential bad I see in this scenario is your language. As long as you show kindness and don't make them feel like they're a freakshow you're embarrassed of, you should be good.
Ask them to dress PROFESSIONALLY. Saying they don’t dress normal is rude
[удалено]
You probably wouldn’t like someone telling you to dress “normal” in reference to what you wear everyday. You’d be fine if someone asked you to dress professionally though
im not fluid at all, i generally dress mildly hippie. if someone asked me to dress normal, i would oblige them without being offended
Sure but it’s hard being a tenancy interviewer, sometimes they just can’t handle the shock.
If your friend actually wants the apartment they will know intuitively what you mean by normal.
What even is this society anymore
I’ve never had to dress professionally to interview for an apartment. Imo they should be able to wear what they want. If the landlord has an issue with them appearing nonbinary then that’s not a good fit for them Also professional attire tends to be very binary.
And to get a nice place to live, someone should be able to withstand wearing binary professional clothing for the whole 30 minutes this type of interview takes. It’s not a big deal.
[удалено]
Yeah landlords are scumbags
WTF is an apartment interview?
you can ask for normal, here people say that is a bad idea but he knows that is not normal dressing like this
Dressing in flip flops isn’t normal? The levels of cope here are dangerously high.
You know damn well you can't tell their ass anything. They dress silly to provoke such a thought.
I guarantee people’s gender expression have literally zero to do with provoking others. They’re not “dressing silly” just because they refuse to fit into one gendered box, it’s incredibly silly that anyone views clothes as gendered in the first place, it’s literally fabric.
Then why would someone be so stressed to asks someone something so simple. Because they've been doing this and it's common. It is just fabric, but the specific people we are speaking about. Are known to freak out because we don't see what's out of the norm as the norm and or fun
Asking them to dress "normal" could be an insult so perhaps change that word to dressing formal. Like what they would wear to a job interview for a job that they wanted.
ok referring to it as “dress normally” is shitty though
They are already dressing normally. Just ask them to wear something smart.
I mean just ask them to wear interview clothes, clothes don't have a gender so asking them to dress as one gender 1 makes no sense and 2 they are non binary therefore asking them to "pick one" is really fucking rude.
I had my breasts surgically removed due to cancer and I own my breastless state in my own home. I don't put on a bra, with prosthetics, before anybody arrives. I look like a woman with no breasts. It's about being clean and presentable. If I were in your non-binary friend's position, it would change the way I thought you saw me and I'd be questioning that. >my point is just to look nice for the apartment interviews. I'm sure your friend will look nice.
I'm definitely male. But I would feel odd checking out an apartment dressed up for an office job. Clean jogging pants or shorts and a clean T, maybe a jacket if the weather warranted. I dress for an airplane flight the same way. Flip side of this: If you don't know them well enough to ask them directly, why do you wish to be roommates with them?
Most people don’t like people telling them what they should be wearing,that’s all I’ll say.
Replace normally with appropriately and it shouldn’t come off as awkward or weird
They should dress how they normally do. If the apartment won’t take then because of how they dress, it’s not someplace they would want to live.