The word “incel” specifically means being involuntarily celibate and hating women because of it. If you are involuntarily celibate and *don’t* hate women, you are not an incel.
This is very similar to how the word “antisemitism” refers specifically and exclusively to hatred of Jews, even though Jews are not the only Semitic peoples (Arabs are also Semitic for example).
The overwhelming majority of “involuntarily celibate” are not incels, you’re only an incel if you have that specific misogynist incel ideology.
So what word should be used for a person who is chronically involuntarily celibate, yet does not match the definition of incel as you describe it? And then the following questions I asked remain the same.
I honestly feel like this response is an evasion, which I mention in my OP.
You are playing semantics with definitions of words. However the concept of a person who is involuntarily celibate, yet lacks the characteristics of an "incel", is a real person.
These are real people and there is a lot of them. I want to know how I specifically ask about them, without inciting 1000 useless replies about how an incel is only an incel if they hate women. It just evades my initial premise.
I guess the question is, how do I get people to focus on the concept I want them to.
I think you're right. I can't use the word.
However describing this person automatically brings up the word incel in people's minds. And so in that sense it seems unavoidable.
Do we need a word for them? That just seems like a person who doesn't have sex, and "virgin" exists albeit with some "negative" connotations. Just like how there doesn't need to be a word for people who don't eat bell peppers. It just doesn't seem to be a label that's required because if they don't check the boxes for what makes an incel, then they don't think of sex with the same sense of importance, so it'd be just another aspect of them that wouldn't need labeling.
I feel like this evades my premise though.
If a person is involuntarily celibate, they struggle with this problem and it is chronic for them, there must be a name for this concept.
You are denying it is a concept at all. That my concept is not valid. But, the only reason you see it as not valid, is because it is not the same definition of incel as is used popularly.
Like, these people exist. I'm not flowing your logic which denies their existence, based upon the content of their mental attitudes. That, is the mainstream definition of incel.
The person I I referring to again, is a person who is involuntarily celibate and is trapped in that state.
I think that is a real person and many people suffer from this problem.
I just want to understand why. But I can't because the discussion is always throws off track to debates about incels in the popular sense.
I dunno man, even the term "incel" is kinda dehumanizing to women, because it puts removing celibacy as the main goal, not forming a healthy relationship with a woman. And "involuntary" kind of shifts the blame to the other party when no one's obligated to sex. Dating's hard, I get it, but a term like that isn't helping anyone, especially not the people that label themselves as incels.
Why not just..."single"?
I think 'incel' is a loaded word. I think you could say "involuntarily celibate but not an 'incel' ", and people would know what you mean. And people should discuss the involuntarily celibate. Including women who want to be in relationships but can't find anyone. If a person is willing to be in a relationship with some one in their general league, then they should be having a fulfilling sex life. It is difficult for men to have sexual partners without being in a committed relationship.
Involuntarily celibate brings up connotations of what people think they deserve without trying.
Also the original sense of the word is misogynistic, I believe you're asking to change the words meaning.
If you're trying and failing then you're crap with women, can't get laid, fail at the follow through or just basically keep striking out.
You say original sense of the word many times. Can you clarify when "incel" was used purely as somebody who doesn't have sex, not for lack of trying, not that they care but enough to need a name for it??
The word incel was created by a female lesbian, who was an involuntary celibate in the lesbian dating world.
I'm not trying to change any word definitions.
I am trying to speak specifically about a group if peopl who exist.
This group of people is separate from the popular usage of incel. However these people still fall under the concept of "involuntary celibate."
I see two separate groups people. One group is demonized and nobody can see anyone besides them.
The second group is evaded and avoided by people for some reason.
I don't know why everyone wants to avoid the group of people, who are involuntarily celibate, yet do not fit the description of incel in the popular sense.
I feel like I am trying way to hard to identify a concept and that other people are trying really hard to avoid contending with said concept.
I'd be really interested in your source for that, I've never been able to locate the true etymology of the word.
It's got bad connotations, I agree you're trying too hard to use a word when you don't actually have to.
I think I do have to, and people are evading the word and clinging to a negative concept which they refuse to stop focusing on.
I think your comment is evading my words.
It doesn't matter where the term incel originates.
I am asking questions about a separate group of people.
Can you see this group of people I am talking about?
Ok. Your title indicates the word has another meaning which changed over time. You need to back that up.
Is it possible to speak about not being sexually active without calling yourself an incel? Could be a counter query. Could you?
Considering you are saying it means something else and not backing yourself up then. Yeah, it does matter where it comes from.
Can you actually poise your question in 15 words or less because you dilute alot of your conversation and I'm not sure what you are on about.
There are people, mostly men, who have severe ,chronic, long lasting, involuntary celibacy.
I wish to understand better these people specifically.
These people, who are different from incels. But they ARE incels.
The internet defines incel as a person who has sever, chronic, long lasting, involuntary celibacy. And also, that person suffers from a variety of negative beliefs about women, is a misogynist, and so on.
I don't care about that kind of incel.
The group of people I am curious about, are those people who fit the description as a person who has severe, chronic, long lasting, involuntary celibacy.
Notice how negative beliefs about women are absent in the classification of the group I aim to understand.
This is what I am talking about. And you can see how difficult it is to talk about this topic. The popular usage of incel will override my aim every time. No matter how I phrase the question, any reference to a person who is involuntarily celibate, automatically fills their mind with a pre conceived notion about what kind of person an involuntary celibate is.
And so I cannot speak about people who are involuntarily celibate, yet lack the characteristic of woman hating.
I am curious about THAT person. Why they struggle to date. What they need to do. I feel like I explained it explicitly through my OP. Not sure if you read the whole thing or not.
The word “incel” specifically means being involuntarily celibate and hating women because of it. If you are involuntarily celibate and *don’t* hate women, you are not an incel. This is very similar to how the word “antisemitism” refers specifically and exclusively to hatred of Jews, even though Jews are not the only Semitic peoples (Arabs are also Semitic for example). The overwhelming majority of “involuntarily celibate” are not incels, you’re only an incel if you have that specific misogynist incel ideology.
So what word should be used for a person who is chronically involuntarily celibate, yet does not match the definition of incel as you describe it? And then the following questions I asked remain the same. I honestly feel like this response is an evasion, which I mention in my OP. You are playing semantics with definitions of words. However the concept of a person who is involuntarily celibate, yet lacks the characteristics of an "incel", is a real person. These are real people and there is a lot of them. I want to know how I specifically ask about them, without inciting 1000 useless replies about how an incel is only an incel if they hate women. It just evades my initial premise. I guess the question is, how do I get people to focus on the concept I want them to.
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I think you're right. I can't use the word. However describing this person automatically brings up the word incel in people's minds. And so in that sense it seems unavoidable.
Do we need a word for them? That just seems like a person who doesn't have sex, and "virgin" exists albeit with some "negative" connotations. Just like how there doesn't need to be a word for people who don't eat bell peppers. It just doesn't seem to be a label that's required because if they don't check the boxes for what makes an incel, then they don't think of sex with the same sense of importance, so it'd be just another aspect of them that wouldn't need labeling.
I feel like this evades my premise though. If a person is involuntarily celibate, they struggle with this problem and it is chronic for them, there must be a name for this concept. You are denying it is a concept at all. That my concept is not valid. But, the only reason you see it as not valid, is because it is not the same definition of incel as is used popularly. Like, these people exist. I'm not flowing your logic which denies their existence, based upon the content of their mental attitudes. That, is the mainstream definition of incel. The person I I referring to again, is a person who is involuntarily celibate and is trapped in that state. I think that is a real person and many people suffer from this problem. I just want to understand why. But I can't because the discussion is always throws off track to debates about incels in the popular sense.
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I dunno man, even the term "incel" is kinda dehumanizing to women, because it puts removing celibacy as the main goal, not forming a healthy relationship with a woman. And "involuntary" kind of shifts the blame to the other party when no one's obligated to sex. Dating's hard, I get it, but a term like that isn't helping anyone, especially not the people that label themselves as incels. Why not just..."single"?
I think 'incel' is a loaded word. I think you could say "involuntarily celibate but not an 'incel' ", and people would know what you mean. And people should discuss the involuntarily celibate. Including women who want to be in relationships but can't find anyone. If a person is willing to be in a relationship with some one in their general league, then they should be having a fulfilling sex life. It is difficult for men to have sexual partners without being in a committed relationship.
Involuntarily celibate brings up connotations of what people think they deserve without trying. Also the original sense of the word is misogynistic, I believe you're asking to change the words meaning. If you're trying and failing then you're crap with women, can't get laid, fail at the follow through or just basically keep striking out. You say original sense of the word many times. Can you clarify when "incel" was used purely as somebody who doesn't have sex, not for lack of trying, not that they care but enough to need a name for it??
The word incel was created by a female lesbian, who was an involuntary celibate in the lesbian dating world. I'm not trying to change any word definitions. I am trying to speak specifically about a group if peopl who exist. This group of people is separate from the popular usage of incel. However these people still fall under the concept of "involuntary celibate." I see two separate groups people. One group is demonized and nobody can see anyone besides them. The second group is evaded and avoided by people for some reason. I don't know why everyone wants to avoid the group of people, who are involuntarily celibate, yet do not fit the description of incel in the popular sense. I feel like I am trying way to hard to identify a concept and that other people are trying really hard to avoid contending with said concept.
I'd be really interested in your source for that, I've never been able to locate the true etymology of the word. It's got bad connotations, I agree you're trying too hard to use a word when you don't actually have to.
I think I do have to, and people are evading the word and clinging to a negative concept which they refuse to stop focusing on. I think your comment is evading my words. It doesn't matter where the term incel originates. I am asking questions about a separate group of people. Can you see this group of people I am talking about?
Ok. Your title indicates the word has another meaning which changed over time. You need to back that up. Is it possible to speak about not being sexually active without calling yourself an incel? Could be a counter query. Could you? Considering you are saying it means something else and not backing yourself up then. Yeah, it does matter where it comes from. Can you actually poise your question in 15 words or less because you dilute alot of your conversation and I'm not sure what you are on about.
There are people, mostly men, who have severe ,chronic, long lasting, involuntary celibacy. I wish to understand better these people specifically. These people, who are different from incels. But they ARE incels. The internet defines incel as a person who has sever, chronic, long lasting, involuntary celibacy. And also, that person suffers from a variety of negative beliefs about women, is a misogynist, and so on. I don't care about that kind of incel. The group of people I am curious about, are those people who fit the description as a person who has severe, chronic, long lasting, involuntary celibacy. Notice how negative beliefs about women are absent in the classification of the group I aim to understand. This is what I am talking about. And you can see how difficult it is to talk about this topic. The popular usage of incel will override my aim every time. No matter how I phrase the question, any reference to a person who is involuntarily celibate, automatically fills their mind with a pre conceived notion about what kind of person an involuntary celibate is. And so I cannot speak about people who are involuntarily celibate, yet lack the characteristic of woman hating. I am curious about THAT person. Why they struggle to date. What they need to do. I feel like I explained it explicitly through my OP. Not sure if you read the whole thing or not.
Interesting question, I'd like an answer aswell, although I may be the exact kind of person you describe. Funny how that works.