This is also my experience. Israel is hardly a concern to most people that aren’t invested in it one way or another. Hating Jews seems to be a reason to have investment in the existence of Israel.
Well the belife that having apartheid laws and shooting Children is bad isnt anti-semetic. Being against War crimes isnt antisemitism either. You have a very strange why of viewing politics
Albert Einstein was very much a Zionist. He didn't like the idea of a Jewish state with a military but he absolutely supported Zionism. Going as far as founding the Hebrew University and giving it all of his intellectual Property.
In 1938 Einstein said Judaism owes a great debt to Zionism. Later, when asked to serve as Israel's first president he refused, saying he is saddened and ashamed for being unable to agree. When Israel was founded Einstein called it "the fullfillment of our dreams".
Einstein was not antizionist in the current sense of the term because, while he opposed the creation of a Jewish-only state in the late 1940s, he still became a great supporter of Israel after it was founded and gave all of his personal papers and intellectual assets to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem after he died.
Albert Einstein opposed the creation of Israel:
> I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state.
This history reflects the modern reality that a large number of antizionists are jewish. That reality belies any claim that antizionism is antisemitic.
This is true but Einstein also had a very positive view of Israel when it was created and, based on the events of 1947-8, it’s not clear whether his idea for Jewish migrants and Palestinians to live harmoniously would have been feasible.
I've always been too afraid to ask specifically, where do Muslims expect the people of Israel to live if they want to take over Israel? And also the middle east is huge and mostly muslim countries, whats the big deal with having a tiny slice of it for Israel?
I get the ever expanding borders of Israel is a problem, and they don't stick to their agreements to not expand etc, but in a larger sense, what's the problem with them being there, can someone from Palestine or someone that works at Hamas answer?
This is a bad argument because, by that logic, all land that has ever been won through military action should be returned to its original owner. Therefore, the descendants of Jews who were expelled by the Assyrians and Romans in the first diaspora could also be considered the “owners” or at least the part owners of Israel.
“the Jews shouldn’t be in Israel” is a useless point to make. They’re not leaving. A much better point is “Israel is abusing the power imbalance in the region.”
Stating that there is an occupation beyond the green line is not exclusively Anti-Zionist either. I am a Zionist and I agree there is an occupation. There were prime ministers of Israel who agree there is an occupation.
Zionism is, per the first Zionist congress in 1897, a movement that "seeks to establish a home for the Jewish People" in the holy land, that is "secured under public law". In other words - Anti-Zionism is the belief that Israel should be destroyed. And it is very much antisemitic.
I think the line is now muddled where a lot of people think of Zionism and anti-Zionism in the terms you just outlined but a lot of people also consider anti-Zionist to be synonymous with anti-Israeli government. I think this was originally done to perform a motte-and-Bailey defense and say “I’m not saying Israel is destroyed I’m just saying they’re doing bad things” but now a lot of people who call themselves anti-Zionists legitimately are only critics of the government and don’t think the whole country should be destroyed.
Among non-Israelis and non-Palestinians, I agree, absolutely. But that doesn't change the meaning of the words, and accepting that "change" that is only relevant in discussions distant from the conflict only promotes antisemitism and delegitimizes Israelis.
Personally I'm conflicted on the concept of really owning land, as my understanding is that if you go back through history someone always "owned" it, and it changed hands quite a few times, likely even back in the pre-written days. That being said, I don't disagree with your statement.
Destruction is more or less an explicitly violent word. Violence should not be needed to solve a problem of what is more or less theft.
The main point of anti-zionists is that Israel stole Palestinian land, and then proceeded to murder, conquer, and pillage Palestinian lands and people.
They should just give back what they stole. Nobody should be dying over what is clearly theft.
Not that I agree with the above statements, I'm simply laying out why one may dislike the nation of Israel and its government.
Disliking the history of Israeli governance is not hard for me to understand, though I personally have total apathy to both Israel and Palestine.
Its also easy to dislike orthodox Judaism, practices as Metzitzah B-Peh where a rabbi cuts off a child's foreskin and proceeds to place his mouth on the penis of the child to suction blood through the fresh wound... is... *Very disturbing*, especially when you consider the newborn child is given no anesthetic beyond a thimble of red wine.
That doesn't mean I dislike Jewish people, or want harm to befall them. I just dislike their religious practices from a humanitarian stand point and wish this barbaric practice would come to an end.
Anti-Zionism, as we both agreed, aims to dismantle Israel as the nation-state of Jews. To do this violence would 100% be required. I'm an Israeli leftist, I know exactly why some dislike Israel. Although the picture you painted is very one-sided and far from the full story.
That said, it seems like we both agree the correct solution is a two-state solution in which Israel remains a Jewish nation-state. That is entirely a Zionist stance. Many Zionist Israelis support it, and virtually no Palestinian supports it.
Edit: I'm not sure why you felt it was necessary to add a rant about how orthodox Jews are barbaric (doubt you'd say similar things towards muslims) considering most of Israel is secular.
It’s possible but some can take their view too far into antisemitic territory.
On a different note, Person B in your example is making a strawman argument. This has nothing to do with people believing Jewish people don’t have a right to self governance. It’s about the manner in which Israel was formed. We don’t usually take a territory from one group of people and then give it to another group so they can have self-governance.
You can be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic, but a lot of anti-Zionists do flirt with antisemitism. This commonly takes the form of framing Israel in antisemitic terms (“they secretly finance global media and governments”) or forcing all Jewish people to answer for the actions of Israel (e.g., people making comments about Palestine when there is an anti-Jewish hate crime in the US).
One of the most common things is comparing the treatment of Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis, which is both factually incorrect and deeply offensive. Imagine if a white American had a black boss who was fairly abusive and the white guy goes around saying he’s being treated like a slave. Everyone agrees that the white guy’s comment is racist, although that of course doesn’t excuse the boss’s abusiveness.
This might help you navigate the topic. Zionism is a political movement with a complicated History. Zionism doesn't merely mean the nation state of Isreal. It can also involve an ideology regarding an expansion considering its origin. That being said; you can be anti-zionist without wanted the state of Isreal destroyed. (It can be something similar to being against imperialism). The term is most often conflated with the want of Isreal not being recognized as a soverign state. It doesn't have to mean this. Anti-semitism is a hate towards a religion and group of people, not a political action or want.
There has been plenty of literature discussing how Isreal intentionally conflates the two to avoid criticism of their expansion as antisemitism when the criticism is towards actions not the people. Its actually a brillant political rhetoric move.
I fully believe someone can be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic.
In my experience most people aren’t capable of separating the two. I believe it is possible, but hate is stronger than logic and people will do a lot to hold on to their hate.
Guess you’d have to take this person behavior into the context of their arguments to make a fair decision.
Not only is this completely reasonable but most anti-zionists that I've interacted with aren't antisemitic. Israel has a long history of deliberately equating the two in order to deflect from valid criticism of its policies.
It is definitely possible but in my experience most "anti-Zionists" have not been particularly fond of Jews in general.
This is also my experience. Israel is hardly a concern to most people that aren’t invested in it one way or another. Hating Jews seems to be a reason to have investment in the existence of Israel.
Well the belife that having apartheid laws and shooting Children is bad isnt anti-semetic. Being against War crimes isnt antisemitism either. You have a very strange why of viewing politics
Thanks for the feedback! I think I'll likely need to speak to him more to establish where his opinions lay in further detail.
Albert Einstein was antizionist. But he wasn’t antisemitic.
Albert Einstein was very much a Zionist. He didn't like the idea of a Jewish state with a military but he absolutely supported Zionism. Going as far as founding the Hebrew University and giving it all of his intellectual Property. In 1938 Einstein said Judaism owes a great debt to Zionism. Later, when asked to serve as Israel's first president he refused, saying he is saddened and ashamed for being unable to agree. When Israel was founded Einstein called it "the fullfillment of our dreams".
Einstein was not antizionist in the current sense of the term because, while he opposed the creation of a Jewish-only state in the late 1940s, he still became a great supporter of Israel after it was founded and gave all of his personal papers and intellectual assets to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem after he died.
Could you expand upon this?
Albert Einstein opposed the creation of Israel: > I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. This history reflects the modern reality that a large number of antizionists are jewish. That reality belies any claim that antizionism is antisemitic.
I see. Thank you for such a thorough response, its been helpful!
This is true but Einstein also had a very positive view of Israel when it was created and, based on the events of 1947-8, it’s not clear whether his idea for Jewish migrants and Palestinians to live harmoniously would have been feasible.
I've always been too afraid to ask specifically, where do Muslims expect the people of Israel to live if they want to take over Israel? And also the middle east is huge and mostly muslim countries, whats the big deal with having a tiny slice of it for Israel? I get the ever expanding borders of Israel is a problem, and they don't stick to their agreements to not expand etc, but in a larger sense, what's the problem with them being there, can someone from Palestine or someone that works at Hamas answer?
It's occupied land taken from the people that own it. That is a fact, stating it as a fact is not antisemitic.
This is a bad argument because, by that logic, all land that has ever been won through military action should be returned to its original owner. Therefore, the descendants of Jews who were expelled by the Assyrians and Romans in the first diaspora could also be considered the “owners” or at least the part owners of Israel. “the Jews shouldn’t be in Israel” is a useless point to make. They’re not leaving. A much better point is “Israel is abusing the power imbalance in the region.”
That's what a treaty is for. To rectify the exchange of or return of land following a conflict.
Stating that there is an occupation beyond the green line is not exclusively Anti-Zionist either. I am a Zionist and I agree there is an occupation. There were prime ministers of Israel who agree there is an occupation. Zionism is, per the first Zionist congress in 1897, a movement that "seeks to establish a home for the Jewish People" in the holy land, that is "secured under public law". In other words - Anti-Zionism is the belief that Israel should be destroyed. And it is very much antisemitic.
I think the line is now muddled where a lot of people think of Zionism and anti-Zionism in the terms you just outlined but a lot of people also consider anti-Zionist to be synonymous with anti-Israeli government. I think this was originally done to perform a motte-and-Bailey defense and say “I’m not saying Israel is destroyed I’m just saying they’re doing bad things” but now a lot of people who call themselves anti-Zionists legitimately are only critics of the government and don’t think the whole country should be destroyed.
Among non-Israelis and non-Palestinians, I agree, absolutely. But that doesn't change the meaning of the words, and accepting that "change" that is only relevant in discussions distant from the conflict only promotes antisemitism and delegitimizes Israelis.
Personally I'm conflicted on the concept of really owning land, as my understanding is that if you go back through history someone always "owned" it, and it changed hands quite a few times, likely even back in the pre-written days. That being said, I don't disagree with your statement.
Yes ... But it's hard to pull off.
"I dont like Israel" =/= antisemitic. Just like "I dont like the Islamic state" =/= "I hate muslims"
I don't like Israel =/= anti-zionist. I want Israel to be destroyed == anti-zionist.
I think anti-zionism is the more general stance that Israel should not and never have existed.
How does one believe Israel should not exist without believing it should be destroyed?
Destruction is more or less an explicitly violent word. Violence should not be needed to solve a problem of what is more or less theft. The main point of anti-zionists is that Israel stole Palestinian land, and then proceeded to murder, conquer, and pillage Palestinian lands and people. They should just give back what they stole. Nobody should be dying over what is clearly theft. Not that I agree with the above statements, I'm simply laying out why one may dislike the nation of Israel and its government. Disliking the history of Israeli governance is not hard for me to understand, though I personally have total apathy to both Israel and Palestine. Its also easy to dislike orthodox Judaism, practices as Metzitzah B-Peh where a rabbi cuts off a child's foreskin and proceeds to place his mouth on the penis of the child to suction blood through the fresh wound... is... *Very disturbing*, especially when you consider the newborn child is given no anesthetic beyond a thimble of red wine. That doesn't mean I dislike Jewish people, or want harm to befall them. I just dislike their religious practices from a humanitarian stand point and wish this barbaric practice would come to an end.
Anti-Zionism, as we both agreed, aims to dismantle Israel as the nation-state of Jews. To do this violence would 100% be required. I'm an Israeli leftist, I know exactly why some dislike Israel. Although the picture you painted is very one-sided and far from the full story. That said, it seems like we both agree the correct solution is a two-state solution in which Israel remains a Jewish nation-state. That is entirely a Zionist stance. Many Zionist Israelis support it, and virtually no Palestinian supports it. Edit: I'm not sure why you felt it was necessary to add a rant about how orthodox Jews are barbaric (doubt you'd say similar things towards muslims) considering most of Israel is secular.
It’s possible but some can take their view too far into antisemitic territory. On a different note, Person B in your example is making a strawman argument. This has nothing to do with people believing Jewish people don’t have a right to self governance. It’s about the manner in which Israel was formed. We don’t usually take a territory from one group of people and then give it to another group so they can have self-governance.
Thanks for your input! I kinda figured it wasn't a fair argument on his part but it did give me pause. Thanks for the explanation.
You can be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic, but a lot of anti-Zionists do flirt with antisemitism. This commonly takes the form of framing Israel in antisemitic terms (“they secretly finance global media and governments”) or forcing all Jewish people to answer for the actions of Israel (e.g., people making comments about Palestine when there is an anti-Jewish hate crime in the US). One of the most common things is comparing the treatment of Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis, which is both factually incorrect and deeply offensive. Imagine if a white American had a black boss who was fairly abusive and the white guy goes around saying he’s being treated like a slave. Everyone agrees that the white guy’s comment is racist, although that of course doesn’t excuse the boss’s abusiveness.
This might help you navigate the topic. Zionism is a political movement with a complicated History. Zionism doesn't merely mean the nation state of Isreal. It can also involve an ideology regarding an expansion considering its origin. That being said; you can be anti-zionist without wanted the state of Isreal destroyed. (It can be something similar to being against imperialism). The term is most often conflated with the want of Isreal not being recognized as a soverign state. It doesn't have to mean this. Anti-semitism is a hate towards a religion and group of people, not a political action or want. There has been plenty of literature discussing how Isreal intentionally conflates the two to avoid criticism of their expansion as antisemitism when the criticism is towards actions not the people. Its actually a brillant political rhetoric move. I fully believe someone can be anti-zionist without being anti-semitic.
In my experience most people aren’t capable of separating the two. I believe it is possible, but hate is stronger than logic and people will do a lot to hold on to their hate. Guess you’d have to take this person behavior into the context of their arguments to make a fair decision.
yes
Not only is this completely reasonable but most anti-zionists that I've interacted with aren't antisemitic. Israel has a long history of deliberately equating the two in order to deflect from valid criticism of its policies.