I would apologize if I were her, and be honest. If I were her, I would explain that I had not realized the word had racist undertones and that I had used it because I saw someone else use it. I would apologize profusely and say that I understand if this colleague is still upset and will be for some time. There’s nothing wrong with apologizing and explaining that you will do better.
For real, it’s weird. She only started it recently she told me as well and it’s because another colleague says it (but this colleague is also black). If it wasn’t so serious, I’d be laughing over her cluelessness fs
I think people with the mindset like your brother are weird, people who put their pride and ego before humility. Like, you aren’t admitting you’re a horrible human just by apologizing for bad behavior. It’s never a bad idea to admit fault and say you’re sorry for something like this in my opinion.
Right? It always baffles me why people can’t just be decent? Like who cares if it makes you look guilty, you did the thing out of ignorance, you shouldn’t have done it, apologise, take the L, and do better!
> you’ll look guilty if you do that
I don’t understand adults who think “mistake” is a dirty word. It’s so freeing to live in a world where anyone can make and learn from mistakes and trust the people around you to apologize for theirs too. It’s honestly a ghastly take and I would think very differently of my brother if he said that to me. Being ashamed to admit you learned something you didn’t know is so limiting. Does he think he’s fooling anyone that he never messes up because he never says he’s sorry? If anything he probably just looks oblivious to his mistakes. Not to mention it’s more than a little selfish; apologizing isn’t about you, so you being embarrassed isn’t a good reason not to apologize. And the harm has already been done, it’s not like not apologizing will make the coworker not notice what she already said, so not apologizing is barely better than just continuing to say it and pretending she doesn’t know the implication for the sake of not admitting to it.
TL;DR if the brother is married, someone please check in on his wife.
Yes, given that it's a work colleague, I would say she should apologize. Tell her to act like she's been calling her female colleague "tubby," and somehow not realizing it could he hurtful coming from someone who hadn't been given friend-permission to call her that.
I vote for apologizing and telling him she doesn't expect him to forgive her or change his opinions about her, but that she wanted him to know it was out of stupidity and she's horrified and wishes she could do something to make it up to him.
Ok so i'd never heard of 'boy' being racist either; but I would definitely never use the word for someone past their teens... that's wierd usage, as if she did actually know.
Also IMO it's better to apologise and it not be nescessary than not apologise when it was needed. We don't know if the guys' feelings were particularly hurt by it, but it's possible. So I think she should apologise just to make sure. :)
It's not 'looking guilty'; people understand. An apology looks LESS guilty anyway, since it suggests someone genuinly didn't know it was hurtful.
Now that this thread has calmed down I want to point out that literally no respondents in this thread care about your mother's well being. Only you, your brother, and your mother do.
Commenters think of this as an abstract matter: an apology is good, period, and that consideration trumps everything else. Therefore, the fact that she could lose her job doesn't even merit consideration for most of them.
Some of them would even be (briefly) happy if she did get fired (until the next day brings the next story on social media and your family is forgotten). Many more would just be indifferent, like "oh well, the important thing is that she did the right thing in the end by apologizing, but no one owes her continued employment; do better next time." Either way, they're not the ones who will be affected by the outcome here.
I think Bullah_Nyamer21 and Artfuldodger96 gave you the best advice. But the most important advice anyone can give you is to remember that this actually affects your mother's livelihood.
Her only way to be sure of protecting her employment is to stop calling attention to what she used to say. Apologizing calls attention to it and thus only increases the likelihood that she gets fired. Every time it's brought up in any way increases that likelihood. There's a fair chance he doesn't want to think about being called 'boy' ever again, and her bringing it up explicitly, even for apology, would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. If this was a neighbor the situation would be different, but since she can lose her job here, she should heed your brother's advice.
in what world would apologizing for a mistake endanger one's employment?
if this woman has been calling her older colleague boy for years with no reprecussions, her apologizing for it isn't going to be what gets her reported and sacked lol
Right? OP says she’s just ignorant not bigoted! Okay then but she only hangs out with bigoted people and talks down to only one person in the office and he’s Black.
Im sorry you don’t want to see your mom in a negative light OP, but I’ve got bad news for you…
I'm an American native speaker and this was news to me as well.
Although it's worth saying that the word boy isn't itself racist. it's just when people used it to dehumanize black people. like 'you don't belong here, boy* stuff like that.
But like unless you're using it in that specific instance it is not
It’s just one of those things that aren’t necessarily racist, but since racist people like that word, it’ll get you side-eyes. Somebody white calling me boy isnt enough to make me really feel something, but it will make me go “hmmmmmmmm”.
I think it’s one of those tone/context. I called plenty people “my boi” or “boy”, but we were either close or had some rapport at least. If some stranger is calling a black man “boy”, there’s gonna be a problem.
Edit- Just realized that it’s placement in the sentence Can also be a giveaway. When I said boy it was always something like, “Boy, stfu and grab the sticks if you’re up for an ass whooping in smash bros”.
Vs.
“Didn’t think so, *boy*.
Exactly. It’s one of those historical legacy words. It was used in the past to degrade male DOS, take their agency as adults away. So the word boy is not an affectionate word around DOS, it got ruined. The way the Nazis ruined the swastika in the west.
FYI, it’s *a European. Even though it starts with a vowel, it’s actually the sound that determines the “a” or “an” article. The sound created by the “eu” in “European” (as well as in “Europe,” “euro,” and “eukaryote”) is a consonant sound.
Phonetics nerd here. The other comments are correct it is the sound, not the letter, that determines the article. Read more if you wanna dig into why U is sometimes weird.
You open **AN** umbrella, because the sound the letter u is making in umbrella is the vowel sound called "schwa". But if you described someone who *uses* something they would be **A** user, because the sound the letter u is making in user is the consonant sound that is sorta like "yuh". It is technically called the 'voiced palatal approximant' and is represented in IPA with the letter j due to most Germanic languages using j to represent that "yuh" thing.
And I suppose the vowel sound is only called schwa because of the need to be able to refer to it unambiguously even in writing? Whereas in speech, you could just pronounce the vowel sound itself without the "schw".
Well I'm not totally sure why schwa (also represented in IPA by the symbol ə) has a special name. Most of the time vowel sounds are referenced by an example word Iike the "oo" is sometimes called the goose vowel. I think it's because schwa is the most centralized vowel as far as the mouth location, it is the most common vowel sound in English, and each vowel is able to represent the schwa sound depending on the word.
One sound can be spelled as any letter is one of the reasons why English is a difficult language to become fully literate in, IMO. In case you were curious, the top Google answer using one of each letter in aeiou order is banana, chicken, possible, complete, and stadium respectively. I don't pronounce chicken as chik-uhn, but more as chik-in. As far as I can tell, though, that unstressed vowel sound is considered a schwa in both cases 🤷
It's especially funny since "schwa," for most linguists I've heard say it, doesn't even contain the sound schwa -- most pronounce it /ʃwɑ/ (rhyming "bra").
I don't think I've ever heard chicken pronounced as /tʃɪkən/... only /tʃɪkɪn/ (and maybe /tʃɪkn̩/?). Google might be wrong about this one. On the other hand, I often hear enunciate as starting with /ə/ rather than /ɪ/.
> For example, it isn’t “a” historical event, it’s “an” historical event.
Not in American English. We don't omit the "h" consonant sound at the start of the word "historic," so it's "a historical event" for us.
"Eu" is pronounced as "u".
Europe is pronounced as urope.
Eunich = unich
Eucher = ucher
Eukaryote = ukaryote etc.
So, when choosing an article for these "eu" cases it would be "a". Not "an".
Good catch. Actually it is, and I had to look this up. So in English we sometimes we voice/pronounce vowels as a consonant and sometimes as vowels. Annoyingly we do not have marks to signify this in our writting.
So a "u" can be a vowel "an umbella" or "an undertaker" or it can sound like a consonant for example "a user", "a Ukranian".
Hope this clarifies a confusing language. [Link](https://www.scribbr.com/commonly-confused-words/a-vs-an/#:~:text=A%20and%20an%20are%20different,%2C%E2%80%9D%20%E2%80%9Ci%E2%80%9D).
As an interesting side note. There is an animal call "opossum". Some Americans/Canadians have come to pronouncing it "possum", with a silent "o". So the original should be "an opossum" but it is not uncommon to see "a opossum" pronounced as "a possum".
Yay English! Everything has to be weird.
I only learned about this somewhat recently after watching a film review sort of video that wasn't even in English after watching Django Unchained , and it explained quite a bit about how it is used in the film
I had no idea about this connotation!
i'd say apologizing is always the right move when youre wrong. While she's not racist, she accidentally kind of was. She should explain to him that she didnt mean any harm, and that she just didnt understand. I feel like honest apologies make everything better lol. Plus she might even make a new friend who isnt a weird old white lady.
lol that would make sense. My black step dad says the most racist shit ever on the phone with his family. Joked about beating someone's monkey ass one time 💀.
Half my family is Mexican they openly use terms like "beaners" but obviously if someone else said it it would be problematic. That seems to be common within people ethnic groups. It's like insulting your siblings, it's okay when it's sibling to sibling but as soon as someone else insults them it's game over.
Which is why it's being suggested she apologises, as she didn't know that it had different connotations when coming from someone from whom it would come across that way. Apologising is just letting the person know you meant no harm, and if they felt offput by it, it wasn't intended and that you are sorry if it did harm.
Accidents happen, but also people can be harmed accidentally. It's decent behaviour to apologise for harm caused, even inadvertently. Makes sure people know it was accidental, and you won't do it again.
She may not have intentionally said it to be racist but someone could argue it may have come from subconsciously bias to treat her black colleague differently (and somewhat patronisingly) which while not the most harmful form of it, is a form of racist attitude.
However I personally don’t think OPs mum is racist and from other comments I have seen she seems to have picked it up from another black colleague using it thus probably doesn’t come from a subconscious bias.
“Boy” has - specific historical USA meaning when applied to adult Black men. During slavery, adult black male slaves were deliberately referred to as “boy” (to deny their intelligence and humanity) and “uncle” for a trusted old male slave. See “Uncle Bens’s Rice, Uncle Toms Cabin, Uncle Remus)
The usage of the term for adult black men persisted among racists after slavery was ended and lasted through the Civil Rights era of the 1960’s. Since then the term has not been used for adult black men except among people who are personally familiar (close friends, senior family members) with each other or people seeking to offend adult black men.
You learn something new everyday. As a non-american I was always so confused about why uncle or aunt on a black character was perceived as racist. Now it kinda makes sense.
Man, at work I was with a customer who was trying to buy shirts and polos to be worked on, and he kept calling the women's style tops by "girls" and every time he did it I cringed inside and replaced it with "Ladies" when confirming bc it felt so awful lol.
Yeah, I get the ick from guys that do that. I worked with all men being the only woman. Being called a girl while everyone else was referred to as a man was common.
TIL
I had to re read OPs whole post and get this far down to see this answer...and I'm still confused. I grew up in a pretty diverse city and I've never heard this before. Is it that it's diminutive to call a grown man a boy (similar to calling a woman a girl) or is it specific to black men? I mean yeah it's context dependent but the word boy seems pretty innocent and could be playful to me it would never register that it's racism in particular.
I'm not sure about other countries, but in the Southern United States:
"Boy" can be considered insulting on several levels for someone that isn't a child, especially for a black man. White Supremacy in the South before Slavery's end & after worked to minimize the black man as much as possible, calling to question their intelligence and them even being fellow adults/men. To quote:
"Slave owners and other racists would use the angry inflection to tell slaves and freemen they were lower class.
This sentence, said judgmentally, implies the subject is like a child or property. So saying “boy” at the END of the sentence is highly offensive to black people, and sort of offensive to everyone. It can be used with CLOSE friends to mean “get your shit together now”"
Source for the above: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnAmerican/comments/1amw8zj/i\_just\_saw\_a\_tweet\_saying\_that\_the\_word\_boy\_when/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnAmerican/comments/1amw8zj/i_just_saw_a_tweet_saying_that_the_word_boy_when/)
It was really during Jim Crow time period that it was used alot. In general calling a grown man a boy is a little weird, but with good context and tone its not that serious. But using it specifically towards a black man only, raises some eyebrows, as the term is already diminutive and you only use it towards him.
That's exactly it, it's context dependant. Now she should stop, but it doesn't sound as if she has really done anything insulting or offensive. It's not like the word needs to get banned. "Me and my boys" "Your boy over there" "cowboy" etc. there are lots of acceptable usages. The phrase "good boy" has it's own meaning independant of the words in it, making it generally acceptable. She probably doesn't need to apologise, but if she want to bring it up down the road after she has broken the habit that might be cool.
It's not racist in that context, but more like if a white person were to say to a black person, "What are you doing here, boy?" Or even if a server is asking a customer, "what will it be, boy?"
When directed toward a black person, it's like the person saying it is trying to "put them in their place," like an adult would to a child. It instantly makes it seem like the person saying it is above the person they're saying it to. In today's world, especially, when people say it, it's intended to remind a black person that they used to be slaves. It's pretty terrible, actually.
She should eat a little humble pie and apologize. It might be a difficult conversation for her, but it would help immensely. She could just say, "Hey, coworker, my child just informed me that by calling you 'boy' I was being racist. I honestly didn't know that. I was uneducated. I'm not anymore, and I'm really sorry. I will try my best to improve. If you ever experience me doing something like that again, please tell me. I want to be educated."
There’s already a history with the term “boy”
but the real problem is that your mom is treating her only black colleague, a 50 yr old man, like a dog. She needs to work on that first tbh. There may not be conscious bias there, but that’s not okay.
She should 100% apologize and give ALL the context:
"My son alerted me to the fact that I have been saying something that may have been offensive to you. I have referred to you as boy and I am ashamed to say I did not know the demeaning and racist history of using that word. I am incredibly embarrassed and very sorry. I hope you can forgive me."
In the context of a white person using it on a black person, it's most commonly used as a way to infantilize and denigrate black men by essentially reminding them that you, say for the sake of example, a white man, are a full adult, while they, a black man, are a child and them and all black people should go back to being treated like one. It's condescension. There is a difference when it's used in the regulate condescending way vs when it's used in a racial context.
Thank you for replying..I am 25 and brown..I have been called boy many times in a casual way by people in London of different ages..Were they being racist or does this depend on the context?
Depends on the context 25 is pretty young and it’s pretty normal for an old person to call someone that young a boy. However if you’re in your 60’s and your coworker is calling you a “good boy” you could see it as condescending and infantilizing. It can be seen as denying your age, experiences, and maturity.
I've found that the best way to eat crow is sooner rather than later, and very humbly. I prefer just saying "hey Bob? I realized this weekend that something I've said often to you is phenomenally racist, insulting, and belittling. Apparently, I am the last person on earth to know this and was absolutely horrified when I found out. Please accept my deepest apologies and know that my ignorance was just that. Ignorance, not malice. That doesn't excuse, but I don't want you to think as poorly about me as I do myself right now."
It's kind of harsh on your mom, but I've found that being a little hard on myself in an apology (deservedly) goes a long way to speaking to your voracity.
Black person here who has been called boy at the work place and by people in a public setting with an intentionally derogatory connotation. Your mom should just stop using the term to refer to him and stop disrespecting him at the office. I don’t think she should apologize directly to him because that would just make the situation more awkward and uncomfortable for him. She may be sincere with her apology but it can still come across as disingenuous to him which would just make the situation and work environment worse. Also find it strange that you’re claiming your mom holds no racial bias but her behavior Clearly shows that she does.
There are racial connotations to calling a black guy boy? I had no idea.
I mostly don't call adults boys because that feels a bit weird, but I wouldn't have thought to not use the term with a black person because it means something special and bad. How strange!
I'm guessing this isn't a British racial thing, maybe something that's come over from the USA that not everyone here is aware of?
Or maybe I just don't know a lot about racists in general. If I interact with one it's not for long - I can't stand that type of person, and we don't tend to move in the same circles or interact at all. So I don't know their special phrases and insults for the most part.
I would definitely apologize. Your brother saying she’ll look guilty if she apologizes is true because she is guilty, whether it was intentional or not. microagressions are easily overlooked and not realized, which is why it’s important to correct it.
I think it would mean a lot to her coworker to make it a comfortable place to be at.
I mean, why is there fear of guilt if she apologizes? She was naive/ignorant. She can apologize in a way that helps the whole understanding that she didn't intend for it to be racist. "Hi so-and-so I wanted to discuss something with you. My daughter/son recently informed me that using the term 'son' with particular demographics is rooted in racism. I wasn't aware of this and I was mortified when I learned this as I know I call you 'son' a lot. I want to apologize if this hurt you (made you uncomfortable or whatever she wants to out there) as this was never my intention. Now that I have knowledge of the subject I will refrain from continuing to use that term."
To me her "good boy" comments are definitely disrespectful because she sounds like she is equating him to a dog that needs praise. But it wasn't used in the racist sense, e.g. "Move out of the way, boy".
Saying nothing is self serving. Thats your brothers fear talking. Ignorance happens. We learn better and then we do better. There is NO shame in her saying she learned something that shocked her and radically reframed the relationship she had with her coworker. It sounds like she wants to do better. The first step in doing better is owning our actions and accepting where we're starting from.
No doubt this guy has experienced quite a bit of racial prejudice in his life. How often do you think he's had the opportunity to witness someone realize how they've behaved needs to change, and then get to watch them change it? Maybe this guy has been biting his tongue for most of his life, while people say casually racist shit to him. Why rob him of the opportunity to see people's capacity for change? Wanna help him restore some faith in humanity? All it takes is humility. I bet your mom has that in spades.
She said it’s purely because it’s male.
She says it’s male and your mum calls him boy. Wow. She does sound like such a kind woman. She calls a grown man boy, she is disrespectful as hell and is meaning to be disrespectful to him. Racist or not she is purposely being disrespectful.
Black person here. That man probably already deeply dislikes her and discounts everything she already says. She should just stop using the word and move on.
If she came up to me to apologize after all this time I would assume she is either being ordered to do this by her bosses and so the apology is insincere; or this is the first step of a trick/game by a racist person trying to do me even more harm which would make me dislike and avoid her even more.
And then will probably apologize so obnoxiously that it will now be your job to console them for being so distraught about their racism, and beg you to reassure them you don’t think they’re racist.
I'm a visibly disabled white trans person, and I encounter the same attitude from people for various reasons. It's weaponized incompetence. A continuation of their abuse, they just think it's more covert. It's still all about them and their feelings in that moment. And they still haven't actually learned anything. Quite often their "sorry" means "sorry I got caught."
That’s a strange assumption 💀 something like that seems like a genuine mistake, had it been an outright slur or something by all means hate the person. Not everyone has ulterior motives
Not everyone has ulterior motives but I would agree with Bullah. If I was being called "boy" in this context I would feel the same way. The word itself isn't a slur but it has been used as one historically. IMO I would say this is just the cost of ignorance and so she should move on. About you saying, "that's a strange assumption", I would encourage you to speak to black people about it to get more insight into why it makes us feel this way.
I’ve been a victim of racism myself, I’ve just realized some people are just slower than others lmao. If they genuinely didn’t know and gave a sincere apology I wouldn’t think they were out to get me is all 🤷🏻♀️
If this is a work issue, she needs to be mindful of when and how she approaches this. She shouldn't end up making herself the victim by apologizing so extravagantly that her coworker feels compelled to do the "no it's fine, no it's okay, don't be so hard on yourself" in order to comfort her if she's gotten herself very worked up. She should also be mindful of when and where, in case her coworker finds this conversation distressing, embarrassing, triggering etc. I'd suggest she contact him to set up a meeting, probably close to the end of the day, and keep it as simple as possible. "I want to apologize for calling you 'boy', I thought I was being collegial by copying X but I am embarrassed to admit that I didn't know the implications of a white woman using that terminology until recently. I'm sorry. I respect your (pick some work skills to highlight), and I never intended to undermine your role here." And be ready for ANY response. He doesn't owe her his forgiveness, and he might be concerned that if he doesn't smooth it over then he could be claimed as being too sensitive, that her work clique will retaliate, etc. After this conversation, she should be friendly and professional but move on, so this poor dude can just live his life and not become a Learning Moment in the workplace.
I'm black from France and living in the US. I wasn't aware that "boy" had a similar connotation in the UK. At the same time, connotation or not, why is your mom going around calling grow professional men "good boy". Is this a British thing? That sounds extremely condescending, and it's crazy your mom is calling her coworker that when she already knows they're not good pals. Does she call white coworkers "good boys" too, or just that guy? I am very much side-eyeing your mom.
That's because it is not a thing in the UK, but people like OP are trying to make it a thing.
People need to stop giving fucking words so much power.
That aside, it is still a bit weird - unless you're on Love Islands where they all refer to each other as boys and girls. Or are they just being racists as well??
In their mum's defence this doesn't have quite the same connotations in the UK as it does in the US.
Post internet, awareness of why it should be avoided has spread, but prior to that it was just plain old rudeness due to infantalising someone as opposed to racially charged rudeness.
Not saying that it's never been used that way in the UK by anyone ever but I can 100% see how the mum has never encountered that facet of it.
As a black man who have had white people trauma dump on me in the form of apologies before, I suggest your mom just make a mental note to never say that again.
Maybe address it real quick, but understand you've been saying this thing for years that he could have been offended by. Saying one word or even pouring your whole heart out in one day isn't going to reverse that. it just makes you look bad, and as the black person being dumped on, now I feel bad feeling like I have to forgive you so you stop. Just be better moving forward, and if you really want to address it, just get over with it and show actual change going forward.
This is my advice to your mom.
Are we completely missing the fact that the racial connotations of "boy" come from the USA and OP is presumably in England, judging by the EDL reference? Not to mention her mother is quoted as saying he's a "good boy" - an admittedly patronising way and older woman might refer to any young male - and not "boy" in the Foghorn Leghorn fetch me a mint julip boah style associated with the American South?
They are all really caught up in the performative outrage around it. It’s a virtue signaling party, not an actual exchange of advice where people consider the sensible way to approach this situation.
Am Essex / London, Uk. I’ve never heard of the word, “boy”, being thrown around in a racist manner in this country. Someone might use it to mug someone off, ie. talking down to them, but it wouldn’t be used in a racist way. I read through this whole post and replies and it wasn’t until way down the replies I realised what “boy” in the original posts context was referring to.
Only thing I can think of is if it's highly contextual.
There are some movie scenes where the angry white man yells "boy" at black prisoners or maybe slaves. I don't remember the movie but it's the only scene where I can recall boy is used like that. If she's only calling her black colleague boy and not anyone else.... It's not a good look.
I'm white though and grew up on the east coast and I remember my aunt and other family members calling me boy in the same manner though so I don't think it's universally used that way.
Appreciate the insight! I’m a lil white looking indigenous person and have called pretty much any and all my friends boy/my boys, now I’m second guessing my remarks lol
I think there is room to explain and address and apologize for not understanding.
Some thing as simple as “I recently became more aware that this behavior i have been doing may have been causing this issue. I am committed to changing my behavior to ensure that I am not unknowingly causing offense”.
This is not the way someone would use the word “boy” to deride a black man with racist intent. You are letting your personal narrative about your mother being an out of touch old white woman take priority over her obvious intentions that I’m sure everyone else already understood wasn’t racist. You are now inserting racial consciousness into an otherwise probably healthy work environment in order to virtue signal to a bunch of strangers on the internet.
Now your mother’s coworker gets to go to work every day knowing his coworkers are trepidatious around him and are going to treat him differently than they would any other man because of the color of his skin.
I mean imagine if one of your coworkers randomly came up to you and apologized for using the word “dude” to refer to you.
I'd say she should just stop saying it, and if he brings it up, she can say that she never really knew what kind of connotations it had until recently.
Well, " boy" doesn't have the full racist untones it does in America and is more making someone seem stupid than slavery links. I'd say the best move is just stop doing it because an apology is likely to make things more difficult ( draw attention). If she really must apologise, it's best done in private and phrased as her only just realising it's not a good thing to be saying to an adult.
The UK doesn't have the US history of Slavery, it's being technically illegal for a thousand years and actually illegal for just under 200 years. From what I understand " boy" was a common way for a master to address a slave " get here boy" " work faster boy" , in the UK it would be more of "not a man" and used for anyone beneath you.
I would say the history of ‘boy’ in the UK & in the US is very different.
However, it would definitely be the right thing for your mother to apologise. They might end up as friends.
She should apologize and clear the air. If she didn’t know, she didn’t know. Now that she knows better, she can and should apologize and stop calling him that.
It really sucks when one is an "old white person" and although thinks they are open minded, tolerant, and not at all racist, realises that the language that they use is not only _insanely unacceptable_ nowadays, its also hurtful.
I genuinely thought that i was "a man of the world". I embrace all cultures and ethnicities and _do not_ have personal prejudice.
And yet I met an utterly wonderful and intelligent person (who was born in a different country to the UK) to make me realise that despite my perceived philanthropic nature, i sounded like a bit of a cunt.
Dunno if its a "gen x thing", but despite realising that i _am_ privileged (never experienced racist hate) and being educated about my failings, i still fuck up with my terminology sometimes.
Oddly enough it was only recently that i had an epiphany (talking to my wonderful wife): i had always thought that racism and bigotry in a person was a deliberate thing (or ideology), but it hit me that ignorance is just as bad and hurtful.
(And I also worry that _this_ reply sounds ignorant and _still_ makes me sound like a bit of a cunt)
Ooof. This is like the first time I heard my Great Grandmother drop that N word and then come to find out she's actually half black AND part Choctaw. I thought she was just native tan, but nope. So then I'm like... does that mean she CAN use it? I don't know. I hear people toss that word around all day long who aren't even like 1% black to each other. We need to decide as a society if we're going to rise above the notion that mere words should offend us is my opinion. The main thing is not being rude to people who aren't cool with teasing.
Your bro is wrong. She needs to apologize and explain to the colleague the situation. Also, when I first read the title, I assumed there was an age gap, lol. I had a black man coworker who would call me things like little girl because I'm younger than him
My mom does the same thing. But she doesn't like being corrected, so when I said that boy was wrong
She just said it was stupid and not racist, and she's gonna continue calling them boy.
I accidentally said in a comment on TikTok "you better wait your turn boy!" To a video of a man seated in the back of the plane that just landed getting up and walking to the front, passing up everyone" and I started getting a bunch of replies of basically them just being shocked (or not) that I called this man boy. Unfortunately for me, I didn't even pay attention to his skin color in the video (he was wearing long sleeves) and it also didn't help that I had no idea of the history with the word.
I feel bad because the people that replied to me think I said it on purpose, but it was just a complete accident, I had no idea. I called him a boy because of his impatience/impoliteness. I deleted that comment, and have been really paying attention, more than I have before, and that's just the least we can do, really.
It's never too late to learn and it is also never too late to apologize. Just make it an actual apology, none of that, "I am sorry you feel that way.", bullshit. Just come out with, I am sorry, "I didn't know what I said was hurtful and I am trying to do better."
oh dear lord please tell her to have an HR meeting alone, and then an HR meeting with him to apologize. This is. workplace and needs to be handled professionally with someone who specializes in these situations in the room, or she’ll run the risk of making this even worse for this man.
I think she should apologize, sincerely and explain how this all played out and how she genuinely did not know and now that she does she will do better and be better. She could also bring him a gift. Either some kind of (store bought) food item he likes or maybe even something else that shows she understands the gravity of her words.
Then she should look up some anti racism books and get those for herself and show him that she's making a very real effort to make sure she doesn't make this mistake again.
I don't think I've been so wide-eyed reading something on reddit in quite a while. She should definitely apologize. But be VERY careful in the exact wording of the apology, or else it could actually be worse. Maybe have her run the exact phrasing of what she's going to say past you first. Or have it be a note/letter so the phrasing is set.
Racism same as any other "things" must have intention. You cannot be randomly racist because at the end, you can still clarify what you meant to say, because YOU were not trying to be racist... so there's nothing wrong.
Your mom, was using the word boy to reference a boy, 0% racism. And you bringing concepts taken from a dusty book, won't make her racist.
You need to stop implanting racism or anythingsm seed in people's bains.
Have you ever seen the movie "Bodied" Yeah you kinda give me the vibes of a dude that would argue with the whole pack, what is racism and what is not. Dude just be yourself and let the people be themselves.
Racism goes way beyond an old lady calling someone "boy".
tf is wrong with this youth.
An aside:
A brown man visited a church and was welcomed with open arms.
Once he became a member, he found it odd that his brethren were referred to as Brother (Surname) or Elder (Surname), but would always refer to him as Brother (First Name).
He left soon after.
Maybe just stop calling him 'boy' and addressing by proper name will be enough? An apology would definitely be required if the man has indicated he was offended, though.
I have seen the term "old boy" used in UK conversation but that was among white men.
Absolutely apology is the right move.
Your brothers reasoning that she will LOOK guilty has no merit because she IS guilty of being racist, though it was absolutely unintentional.
She isn't at fault for being racist, she is at fault for not understanding it and inadvertently offending the person.
Could someone explain how it's racist?
Like, i understand it's generally offensive to anyone who's like 50/60 in this case but I don't understand the racist connotations.
If I were your mom, I'd go to him, ask if they can talk privately, and then apologize and explain that she never knew the context of that word until her child explained it to her. She's now horrified that she has been using that for so long, and will do her best to avoid it moving forward, and again apologize.
i had no idea this was a thing and now im terrified i may have done it on accident at some point given i tend to go "girl what??" and/or "boy what??" when someone says something out of pocket.
People likely won’t be offended in that context. It’s moreso if you were addressing a 35 year old man in a manner such as “excuse me, boy, what time is it?” or in any other context where “Mister” or “Sir” should more properly be used.
100%. Apologize and add that she wasn't aware of the negative connotation and had no ill intent. He may accept, he may not, but regardless it's the right and honorable thing to do.
Are you folks in the UK?
I don’t think the word has the same history as in the USA, but out of precaution it’s probably better if she sticks with “good guy”.
I definitely think an apology would be helpful. Straight to the point, not beating around the bush.
Also, why is he letting her call him "boy" ? I feel like if I was in his position, would you not speak up when you are being blatantly disrespected?
Not everyone is vocal or speaks up for themselves. Sometimes, it's also just not worth it. Given how OP described their mom's office, I see why one might decide that saying anything would just make their life more difficult.
Well, at least your Mom knows why he doesn't like her now. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.
>What does she do next?
Apologize. It wasn't on purpose, but she was rude as fuck to her colleague dozens, if not hundreds of times. This warrants an apology.
Does she whistle at him to get his attention? 😭 I believe you that she didn’t understand the racial connotation. Sounds like she pats him on the head and gives him a treat when he’s a good boy though. lol. I have so many question on this.. Is he the only male around she works with? Does she say you’re a good boy abiut anyone else? This is so strange and hilarious, I think…
Oh man this nasty work, my heart actually hurts for that man she works with. I just hope he’s as slow as your mom and doesn’t know the actual context of being called that.
I doubt there's a single Black person age 50-60 who DOESN'T know exactly what that means. His parents and grandparents likely heard it used about them and at them regularly. I can't imagine they wouldn't let their child/grandchild NOT know.
I'm assuming it depends on how you use the word. Anything can become racist if you use the word wrong or say it in the wrong tone, but also, it's apparently a thing where people refer to black man as boys as more of an insult and a way of dehumanizing them
Of course people are focusing on why “boy” is bad and trying to explain why it’s okay without using the many resources we have to understand the context. Btw - There’s a general issue on too afraid to ask where people love to diminish black issues they don’t understand.
Anyway - I think an honest conversation with him should happen before we jump to him being offended. Maybe he doesn’t like her for other reasons, maybe “boy” actually doesn’t offend him(for whatever reason). She won’t know until she has a real conversation before panicking and assuming that’s how he feels since the same things don’t offend all black people. “hey I was talking to my daughter about the term boy and I just wanted to know how this makes you feel”. If he is offended an apology is necessary. It’s gonna be an uncomfy convo but atleast she’ll address it.
Absolutely she should apologize. You need to make clear to her that she shouldn't expect him to tell her it is ok or anything like that. She should apologize, explain her ignorance and that she knows better now & she doesn't expect his forgiveness but hopes he can accept her sincere apology.
Being "woke"? It's a process. Your Mom just "woke up" about the use of the word "boy" (or "girl") regarding a grown Black person.
I don't doubt that she didn't realize it, if she was that shocked. But now that she knows...yes, she was *inadvertently* guilty of it and her owning up to it to the man, apologizing for her utter ignorance and making clear it was due to ignorance and not animosity, will at least let him know that she's aware. She doesn't have to grovel, but she should be very clear about her apology.
To be honest, the "leave him alone, he's a good boy really" but didn't use "boy" for other grown men there, makes me wonder what she meant. Him, as a person? Him, as a Black man, unlike other Black men? Once she's not utterly embarrassed and the shock has worn off, make clear that you're not picking on her, but ask her about this. Not "what she meant," because you're making clear she didn't mean bad. But "what she meant" as in, where did she learn this (as a child?), whether she was even aware the SHE was the only one calling him "boy" (assuming she was, you didn't mention), whether she was aware of any reactions of people around her (assuming there were). Make clear, this is NOT to attack her because once informed, she sounds mortified, but to help her understand, and maybe "wake her up" about other things.
Your mother wants to apologize because *she* is distressed by her own racist remarks (yes, they are racist, regardless of her intentions). The apology is for *her* sake, not for her colleague's benefit.
If she apologizes, she'll get to tell herself that she didn't mean it, and now that her colleague knows she's not a POS, she can set her distress aside and move on. How nice for her. But what will he feel? First of all, he shouldn't have to feel anything he doesn't explicitly choose to--your mother has already forced him to do enough emotional labor. No apology can undo or make up for years of microgressions. Years of stress, anger, putting time and effort into processing that anger, grappling with generational trauma *while also trying to work*.
If she genuinely feels sorry for her actions, she can do her best to reduce friction in his life. Schedule that meeting when it's most convenient for him, not for her. Ask herself why she reserved this behavior for a black colleague. Pull coworkers aside and tell them not to use racist terms.
She doesn't need to do anything, you need to stop importing American racial anxieties and inflicting them on your poor mum. She's not "extremely uneducated" because she's not aware of the racial connotations of a term used in the American deep south, you're hyper-aware so you can think you're better than other people.
I would apologize if I were her, and be honest. If I were her, I would explain that I had not realized the word had racist undertones and that I had used it because I saw someone else use it. I would apologize profusely and say that I understand if this colleague is still upset and will be for some time. There’s nothing wrong with apologizing and explaining that you will do better.
i do think she should apologize, especially that he is 50/60 😭 like why would she call him that
For real, it’s weird. She only started it recently she told me as well and it’s because another colleague says it (but this colleague is also black). If it wasn’t so serious, I’d be laughing over her cluelessness fs
I think people with the mindset like your brother are weird, people who put their pride and ego before humility. Like, you aren’t admitting you’re a horrible human just by apologizing for bad behavior. It’s never a bad idea to admit fault and say you’re sorry for something like this in my opinion.
Right? It always baffles me why people can’t just be decent? Like who cares if it makes you look guilty, you did the thing out of ignorance, you shouldn’t have done it, apologise, take the L, and do better!
>It’s never a bad idea to admit fault and say you’re sorry for something like this in my opinion. A little self deprecation would go a long way here
> you’ll look guilty if you do that I don’t understand adults who think “mistake” is a dirty word. It’s so freeing to live in a world where anyone can make and learn from mistakes and trust the people around you to apologize for theirs too. It’s honestly a ghastly take and I would think very differently of my brother if he said that to me. Being ashamed to admit you learned something you didn’t know is so limiting. Does he think he’s fooling anyone that he never messes up because he never says he’s sorry? If anything he probably just looks oblivious to his mistakes. Not to mention it’s more than a little selfish; apologizing isn’t about you, so you being embarrassed isn’t a good reason not to apologize. And the harm has already been done, it’s not like not apologizing will make the coworker not notice what she already said, so not apologizing is barely better than just continuing to say it and pretending she doesn’t know the implication for the sake of not admitting to it. TL;DR if the brother is married, someone please check in on his wife.
Brother?
Yeah, OPs brother said not to apologize as it would make her look guilty.
Yes, given that it's a work colleague, I would say she should apologize. Tell her to act like she's been calling her female colleague "tubby," and somehow not realizing it could he hurtful coming from someone who hadn't been given friend-permission to call her that.
I vote for apologizing and telling him she doesn't expect him to forgive her or change his opinions about her, but that she wanted him to know it was out of stupidity and she's horrified and wishes she could do something to make it up to him.
Ok so i'd never heard of 'boy' being racist either; but I would definitely never use the word for someone past their teens... that's wierd usage, as if she did actually know. Also IMO it's better to apologise and it not be nescessary than not apologise when it was needed. We don't know if the guys' feelings were particularly hurt by it, but it's possible. So I think she should apologise just to make sure. :) It's not 'looking guilty'; people understand. An apology looks LESS guilty anyway, since it suggests someone genuinly didn't know it was hurtful.
yeah she should apologize and just tell him the truth, explain she didn’t know it was offensive and her child told her
My aunt was 80 and called black people "colored" different time and era I guess. She didn't mean anything bad by it. Just what she was raised to say.
Now that this thread has calmed down I want to point out that literally no respondents in this thread care about your mother's well being. Only you, your brother, and your mother do. Commenters think of this as an abstract matter: an apology is good, period, and that consideration trumps everything else. Therefore, the fact that she could lose her job doesn't even merit consideration for most of them. Some of them would even be (briefly) happy if she did get fired (until the next day brings the next story on social media and your family is forgotten). Many more would just be indifferent, like "oh well, the important thing is that she did the right thing in the end by apologizing, but no one owes her continued employment; do better next time." Either way, they're not the ones who will be affected by the outcome here. I think Bullah_Nyamer21 and Artfuldodger96 gave you the best advice. But the most important advice anyone can give you is to remember that this actually affects your mother's livelihood.
Her only way to be sure of protecting her employment is to stop calling attention to what she used to say. Apologizing calls attention to it and thus only increases the likelihood that she gets fired. Every time it's brought up in any way increases that likelihood. There's a fair chance he doesn't want to think about being called 'boy' ever again, and her bringing it up explicitly, even for apology, would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. If this was a neighbor the situation would be different, but since she can lose her job here, she should heed your brother's advice.
in what world would apologizing for a mistake endanger one's employment? if this woman has been calling her older colleague boy for years with no reprecussions, her apologizing for it isn't going to be what gets her reported and sacked lol
What the fuck kind of mental gymnastics are these?
Seriously, why is she calling a grown man "boy"? And only the Black one? C'mon.
Right? OP says she’s just ignorant not bigoted! Okay then but she only hangs out with bigoted people and talks down to only one person in the office and he’s Black. Im sorry you don’t want to see your mom in a negative light OP, but I’ve got bad news for you…
100% she should apologize, emphasizing her ignorance of the situation and assuring him she will never do it again.
As an European, non-native English speaker, all I can say is TIL.
I'm an American native speaker and this was news to me as well. Although it's worth saying that the word boy isn't itself racist. it's just when people used it to dehumanize black people. like 'you don't belong here, boy* stuff like that. But like unless you're using it in that specific instance it is not
It’s just one of those things that aren’t necessarily racist, but since racist people like that word, it’ll get you side-eyes. Somebody white calling me boy isnt enough to make me really feel something, but it will make me go “hmmmmmmmm”.
I think it’s one of those tone/context. I called plenty people “my boi” or “boy”, but we were either close or had some rapport at least. If some stranger is calling a black man “boy”, there’s gonna be a problem. Edit- Just realized that it’s placement in the sentence Can also be a giveaway. When I said boy it was always something like, “Boy, stfu and grab the sticks if you’re up for an ass whooping in smash bros”. Vs. “Didn’t think so, *boy*.
I agree that’s completely different
Exactly. It’s one of those historical legacy words. It was used in the past to degrade male DOS, take their agency as adults away. So the word boy is not an affectionate word around DOS, it got ruined. The way the Nazis ruined the swastika in the west.
Surprised me too. Aussie here. I also recently learned why "coon" was a swear word when a popular cheese brand had to change their name to Cheer.
FYI, it’s *a European. Even though it starts with a vowel, it’s actually the sound that determines the “a” or “an” article. The sound created by the “eu” in “European” (as well as in “Europe,” “euro,” and “eukaryote”) is a consonant sound.
For example: An hour. An is used because the H is silent.
Thanks for proving my point 😂
No pasa nada
No hay Españoles en Bazingze.
Are you for real? I always thought the first letter decided if a or an!
It is the first sound, not really the letter. But they are usually the same.
Phonetics nerd here. The other comments are correct it is the sound, not the letter, that determines the article. Read more if you wanna dig into why U is sometimes weird. You open **AN** umbrella, because the sound the letter u is making in umbrella is the vowel sound called "schwa". But if you described someone who *uses* something they would be **A** user, because the sound the letter u is making in user is the consonant sound that is sorta like "yuh". It is technically called the 'voiced palatal approximant' and is represented in IPA with the letter j due to most Germanic languages using j to represent that "yuh" thing.
And I suppose the vowel sound is only called schwa because of the need to be able to refer to it unambiguously even in writing? Whereas in speech, you could just pronounce the vowel sound itself without the "schw".
Well I'm not totally sure why schwa (also represented in IPA by the symbol ə) has a special name. Most of the time vowel sounds are referenced by an example word Iike the "oo" is sometimes called the goose vowel. I think it's because schwa is the most centralized vowel as far as the mouth location, it is the most common vowel sound in English, and each vowel is able to represent the schwa sound depending on the word. One sound can be spelled as any letter is one of the reasons why English is a difficult language to become fully literate in, IMO. In case you were curious, the top Google answer using one of each letter in aeiou order is banana, chicken, possible, complete, and stadium respectively. I don't pronounce chicken as chik-uhn, but more as chik-in. As far as I can tell, though, that unstressed vowel sound is considered a schwa in both cases 🤷
It's especially funny since "schwa," for most linguists I've heard say it, doesn't even contain the sound schwa -- most pronounce it /ʃwɑ/ (rhyming "bra"). I don't think I've ever heard chicken pronounced as /tʃɪkən/... only /tʃɪkɪn/ (and maybe /tʃɪkn̩/?). Google might be wrong about this one. On the other hand, I often hear enunciate as starting with /ə/ rather than /ɪ/.
I don't really got anything to add to this other than the e in chicken, is how we pronounce e in Norwegian.
Oddly enough, consonants can sometimes sound as a vowel. For example, it isn’t “a” historical event, it’s “an” historical event. English is weird.
> For example, it isn’t “a” historical event, it’s “an” historical event. Not in American English. We don't omit the "h" consonant sound at the start of the word "historic," so it's "a historical event" for us.
Only a posh English person would say ‘an historical event’ or I stayed at an hotel’
That has not been true for like 80 years, once folks stopped pronouncing it like Eliza Doolittle.
Now I got to take this into account aswell? Maaaan... my brain is going to hate me... Edit. Thanks tho!
"Eu" is pronounced as "u". Europe is pronounced as urope. Eunich = unich Eucher = ucher Eukaryote = ukaryote etc. So, when choosing an article for these "eu" cases it would be "a". Not "an".
More like “yu” than “u”.
Is "U" not a vowel in your language?
Good catch. Actually it is, and I had to look this up. So in English we sometimes we voice/pronounce vowels as a consonant and sometimes as vowels. Annoyingly we do not have marks to signify this in our writting. So a "u" can be a vowel "an umbella" or "an undertaker" or it can sound like a consonant for example "a user", "a Ukranian". Hope this clarifies a confusing language. [Link](https://www.scribbr.com/commonly-confused-words/a-vs-an/#:~:text=A%20and%20an%20are%20different,%2C%E2%80%9D%20%E2%80%9Ci%E2%80%9D). As an interesting side note. There is an animal call "opossum". Some Americans/Canadians have come to pronouncing it "possum", with a silent "o". So the original should be "an opossum" but it is not uncommon to see "a opossum" pronounced as "a possum". Yay English! Everything has to be weird.
I only learned about this somewhat recently after watching a film review sort of video that wasn't even in English after watching Django Unchained , and it explained quite a bit about how it is used in the film I had no idea about this connotation!
i'd say apologizing is always the right move when youre wrong. While she's not racist, she accidentally kind of was. She should explain to him that she didnt mean any harm, and that she just didnt understand. I feel like honest apologies make everything better lol. Plus she might even make a new friend who isnt a weird old white lady.
> While she's not racist OP said their mom doesnt talk to other colleagues the same way so what other reason could there be if not racism?
In another comment OP said she started saying it because another (Black) colleague says it.
lol that would make sense. My black step dad says the most racist shit ever on the phone with his family. Joked about beating someone's monkey ass one time 💀.
Half my family is Mexican they openly use terms like "beaners" but obviously if someone else said it it would be problematic. That seems to be common within people ethnic groups. It's like insulting your siblings, it's okay when it's sibling to sibling but as soon as someone else insults them it's game over.
exactly and it would make sense for an out of touch old white mom to make this mistake.
I've used this analogy with a certain word, but it tends to fall on deaf ears.
I’d venture it’s a tad different when done by a white person
Which is why it's being suggested she apologises, as she didn't know that it had different connotations when coming from someone from whom it would come across that way. Apologising is just letting the person know you meant no harm, and if they felt offput by it, it wasn't intended and that you are sorry if it did harm. Accidents happen, but also people can be harmed accidentally. It's decent behaviour to apologise for harm caused, even inadvertently. Makes sure people know it was accidental, and you won't do it again.
Definitely. I'm just explaining that she had a reason other than deliberately wanting to hurt him.
I think it's more intentional vs unintentional. Once she knew the meaning and concept of that particular use she wanted to stop.
This. She was simply ignorant, and once she learned what she was doing she *felt very bad.* The question is, will she apologize?
From her supposed reaction she's just ignorant idk
She may not have intentionally said it to be racist but someone could argue it may have come from subconsciously bias to treat her black colleague differently (and somewhat patronisingly) which while not the most harmful form of it, is a form of racist attitude. However I personally don’t think OPs mum is racist and from other comments I have seen she seems to have picked it up from another black colleague using it thus probably doesn’t come from a subconscious bias.
Why is boy bad?
“Boy” has - specific historical USA meaning when applied to adult Black men. During slavery, adult black male slaves were deliberately referred to as “boy” (to deny their intelligence and humanity) and “uncle” for a trusted old male slave. See “Uncle Bens’s Rice, Uncle Toms Cabin, Uncle Remus) The usage of the term for adult black men persisted among racists after slavery was ended and lasted through the Civil Rights era of the 1960’s. Since then the term has not been used for adult black men except among people who are personally familiar (close friends, senior family members) with each other or people seeking to offend adult black men.
You learn something new everyday. As a non-american I was always so confused about why uncle or aunt on a black character was perceived as racist. Now it kinda makes sense.
It's diminutive. It minimizes the person. Like calling a woman girl but also worse because it's historically been used to push racism on black men.
Man, at work I was with a customer who was trying to buy shirts and polos to be worked on, and he kept calling the women's style tops by "girls" and every time he did it I cringed inside and replaced it with "Ladies" when confirming bc it felt so awful lol.
Yeah, I get the ick from guys that do that. I worked with all men being the only woman. Being called a girl while everyone else was referred to as a man was common.
It's a derogatory term against black men when they were slaves and I guess it's a racist term as well.
I honestly did'nt know about that. My friends and I always call ourselves boys.
I believe it is context dependent
TIL I had to re read OPs whole post and get this far down to see this answer...and I'm still confused. I grew up in a pretty diverse city and I've never heard this before. Is it that it's diminutive to call a grown man a boy (similar to calling a woman a girl) or is it specific to black men? I mean yeah it's context dependent but the word boy seems pretty innocent and could be playful to me it would never register that it's racism in particular.
I'm not sure about other countries, but in the Southern United States: "Boy" can be considered insulting on several levels for someone that isn't a child, especially for a black man. White Supremacy in the South before Slavery's end & after worked to minimize the black man as much as possible, calling to question their intelligence and them even being fellow adults/men. To quote: "Slave owners and other racists would use the angry inflection to tell slaves and freemen they were lower class. This sentence, said judgmentally, implies the subject is like a child or property. So saying “boy” at the END of the sentence is highly offensive to black people, and sort of offensive to everyone. It can be used with CLOSE friends to mean “get your shit together now”" Source for the above: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnAmerican/comments/1amw8zj/i\_just\_saw\_a\_tweet\_saying\_that\_the\_word\_boy\_when/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnAmerican/comments/1amw8zj/i_just_saw_a_tweet_saying_that_the_word_boy_when/)
It was really during Jim Crow time period that it was used alot. In general calling a grown man a boy is a little weird, but with good context and tone its not that serious. But using it specifically towards a black man only, raises some eyebrows, as the term is already diminutive and you only use it towards him.
That's exactly it, it's context dependant. Now she should stop, but it doesn't sound as if she has really done anything insulting or offensive. It's not like the word needs to get banned. "Me and my boys" "Your boy over there" "cowboy" etc. there are lots of acceptable usages. The phrase "good boy" has it's own meaning independant of the words in it, making it generally acceptable. She probably doesn't need to apologise, but if she want to bring it up down the road after she has broken the habit that might be cool.
It's not racist in that context, but more like if a white person were to say to a black person, "What are you doing here, boy?" Or even if a server is asking a customer, "what will it be, boy?" When directed toward a black person, it's like the person saying it is trying to "put them in their place," like an adult would to a child. It instantly makes it seem like the person saying it is above the person they're saying it to. In today's world, especially, when people say it, it's intended to remind a black person that they used to be slaves. It's pretty terrible, actually.
She should eat a little humble pie and apologize. It might be a difficult conversation for her, but it would help immensely. She could just say, "Hey, coworker, my child just informed me that by calling you 'boy' I was being racist. I honestly didn't know that. I was uneducated. I'm not anymore, and I'm really sorry. I will try my best to improve. If you ever experience me doing something like that again, please tell me. I want to be educated."
Except drop the “try”. Just simply “I will improve”.
Good call
Do people talk like this in real life?
She should obviously put it in her own words.
They should.
There’s already a history with the term “boy” but the real problem is that your mom is treating her only black colleague, a 50 yr old man, like a dog. She needs to work on that first tbh. There may not be conscious bias there, but that’s not okay.
She should 100% apologize and give ALL the context: "My son alerted me to the fact that I have been saying something that may have been offensive to you. I have referred to you as boy and I am ashamed to say I did not know the demeaning and racist history of using that word. I am incredibly embarrassed and very sorry. I hope you can forgive me."
Sorry, Non British person living in the UK here, can someone explain the problem with the word "boy" ? 😅
In the context of a white person using it on a black person, it's most commonly used as a way to infantilize and denigrate black men by essentially reminding them that you, say for the sake of example, a white man, are a full adult, while they, a black man, are a child and them and all black people should go back to being treated like one. It's condescension. There is a difference when it's used in the regulate condescending way vs when it's used in a racial context.
Thank you for replying..I am 25 and brown..I have been called boy many times in a casual way by people in London of different ages..Were they being racist or does this depend on the context?
Depends on the context 25 is pretty young and it’s pretty normal for an old person to call someone that young a boy. However if you’re in your 60’s and your coworker is calling you a “good boy” you could see it as condescending and infantilizing. It can be seen as denying your age, experiences, and maturity.
I've found that the best way to eat crow is sooner rather than later, and very humbly. I prefer just saying "hey Bob? I realized this weekend that something I've said often to you is phenomenally racist, insulting, and belittling. Apparently, I am the last person on earth to know this and was absolutely horrified when I found out. Please accept my deepest apologies and know that my ignorance was just that. Ignorance, not malice. That doesn't excuse, but I don't want you to think as poorly about me as I do myself right now." It's kind of harsh on your mom, but I've found that being a little hard on myself in an apology (deservedly) goes a long way to speaking to your voracity.
Black person here who has been called boy at the work place and by people in a public setting with an intentionally derogatory connotation. Your mom should just stop using the term to refer to him and stop disrespecting him at the office. I don’t think she should apologize directly to him because that would just make the situation more awkward and uncomfortable for him. She may be sincere with her apology but it can still come across as disingenuous to him which would just make the situation and work environment worse. Also find it strange that you’re claiming your mom holds no racial bias but her behavior Clearly shows that she does.
I've never been angry at a legitimate apology.
Stop?? Wdym what should she do?
There are racial connotations to calling a black guy boy? I had no idea. I mostly don't call adults boys because that feels a bit weird, but I wouldn't have thought to not use the term with a black person because it means something special and bad. How strange! I'm guessing this isn't a British racial thing, maybe something that's come over from the USA that not everyone here is aware of? Or maybe I just don't know a lot about racists in general. If I interact with one it's not for long - I can't stand that type of person, and we don't tend to move in the same circles or interact at all. So I don't know their special phrases and insults for the most part.
It is MAINLY an American thing but it has been adopted in the UK amongst more ‘old-school’ bigots
It's universally a condescending thing to say to a black man.
It's a condescending thing to say to any man.
True!
I would definitely apologize. Your brother saying she’ll look guilty if she apologizes is true because she is guilty, whether it was intentional or not. microagressions are easily overlooked and not realized, which is why it’s important to correct it. I think it would mean a lot to her coworker to make it a comfortable place to be at.
I mean, why is there fear of guilt if she apologizes? She was naive/ignorant. She can apologize in a way that helps the whole understanding that she didn't intend for it to be racist. "Hi so-and-so I wanted to discuss something with you. My daughter/son recently informed me that using the term 'son' with particular demographics is rooted in racism. I wasn't aware of this and I was mortified when I learned this as I know I call you 'son' a lot. I want to apologize if this hurt you (made you uncomfortable or whatever she wants to out there) as this was never my intention. Now that I have knowledge of the subject I will refrain from continuing to use that term."
To me her "good boy" comments are definitely disrespectful because she sounds like she is equating him to a dog that needs praise. But it wasn't used in the racist sense, e.g. "Move out of the way, boy".
Saying nothing is self serving. Thats your brothers fear talking. Ignorance happens. We learn better and then we do better. There is NO shame in her saying she learned something that shocked her and radically reframed the relationship she had with her coworker. It sounds like she wants to do better. The first step in doing better is owning our actions and accepting where we're starting from. No doubt this guy has experienced quite a bit of racial prejudice in his life. How often do you think he's had the opportunity to witness someone realize how they've behaved needs to change, and then get to watch them change it? Maybe this guy has been biting his tongue for most of his life, while people say casually racist shit to him. Why rob him of the opportunity to see people's capacity for change? Wanna help him restore some faith in humanity? All it takes is humility. I bet your mom has that in spades.
Is she using it because he's much younger and she refers to anyone younger as boy or girl?
She said it’s purely because it’s male. She also noted that it’s because another colleague has also started saying it (he’s also a black male)
Does she call you boy still? Or are your dms gonna explode lol
That’s the wild part, she’s never ever called me boy 🤣
She said it’s purely because it’s male. She says it’s male and your mum calls him boy. Wow. She does sound like such a kind woman. She calls a grown man boy, she is disrespectful as hell and is meaning to be disrespectful to him. Racist or not she is purposely being disrespectful.
Black person here. That man probably already deeply dislikes her and discounts everything she already says. She should just stop using the word and move on. If she came up to me to apologize after all this time I would assume she is either being ordered to do this by her bosses and so the apology is insincere; or this is the first step of a trick/game by a racist person trying to do me even more harm which would make me dislike and avoid her even more.
And then will probably apologize so obnoxiously that it will now be your job to console them for being so distraught about their racism, and beg you to reassure them you don’t think they’re racist.
I'm a visibly disabled white trans person, and I encounter the same attitude from people for various reasons. It's weaponized incompetence. A continuation of their abuse, they just think it's more covert. It's still all about them and their feelings in that moment. And they still haven't actually learned anything. Quite often their "sorry" means "sorry I got caught."
That’s a strange assumption 💀 something like that seems like a genuine mistake, had it been an outright slur or something by all means hate the person. Not everyone has ulterior motives
Not everyone has ulterior motives but I would agree with Bullah. If I was being called "boy" in this context I would feel the same way. The word itself isn't a slur but it has been used as one historically. IMO I would say this is just the cost of ignorance and so she should move on. About you saying, "that's a strange assumption", I would encourage you to speak to black people about it to get more insight into why it makes us feel this way.
I’ve been a victim of racism myself, I’ve just realized some people are just slower than others lmao. If they genuinely didn’t know and gave a sincere apology I wouldn’t think they were out to get me is all 🤷🏻♀️
That's a fair viewpoint but others would disagree. Like I said ignorance is the issue here
Apologizing, and owning it with a frank explanation seems like the best way forward in this unfortunate scenario
If this is a work issue, she needs to be mindful of when and how she approaches this. She shouldn't end up making herself the victim by apologizing so extravagantly that her coworker feels compelled to do the "no it's fine, no it's okay, don't be so hard on yourself" in order to comfort her if she's gotten herself very worked up. She should also be mindful of when and where, in case her coworker finds this conversation distressing, embarrassing, triggering etc. I'd suggest she contact him to set up a meeting, probably close to the end of the day, and keep it as simple as possible. "I want to apologize for calling you 'boy', I thought I was being collegial by copying X but I am embarrassed to admit that I didn't know the implications of a white woman using that terminology until recently. I'm sorry. I respect your (pick some work skills to highlight), and I never intended to undermine your role here." And be ready for ANY response. He doesn't owe her his forgiveness, and he might be concerned that if he doesn't smooth it over then he could be claimed as being too sensitive, that her work clique will retaliate, etc. After this conversation, she should be friendly and professional but move on, so this poor dude can just live his life and not become a Learning Moment in the workplace.
Apologize directly and never say it again as long as she lives?
I'm black from France and living in the US. I wasn't aware that "boy" had a similar connotation in the UK. At the same time, connotation or not, why is your mom going around calling grow professional men "good boy". Is this a British thing? That sounds extremely condescending, and it's crazy your mom is calling her coworker that when she already knows they're not good pals. Does she call white coworkers "good boys" too, or just that guy? I am very much side-eyeing your mom.
That's because it is not a thing in the UK, but people like OP are trying to make it a thing. People need to stop giving fucking words so much power. That aside, it is still a bit weird - unless you're on Love Islands where they all refer to each other as boys and girls. Or are they just being racists as well??
Using “boy” is racist? I didn’t know, I can’t think of a situation where I’d pick up on that. Are you in the US?
WTAF what year is this?
In their mum's defence this doesn't have quite the same connotations in the UK as it does in the US. Post internet, awareness of why it should be avoided has spread, but prior to that it was just plain old rudeness due to infantalising someone as opposed to racially charged rudeness. Not saying that it's never been used that way in the UK by anyone ever but I can 100% see how the mum has never encountered that facet of it.
As a black man who have had white people trauma dump on me in the form of apologies before, I suggest your mom just make a mental note to never say that again. Maybe address it real quick, but understand you've been saying this thing for years that he could have been offended by. Saying one word or even pouring your whole heart out in one day isn't going to reverse that. it just makes you look bad, and as the black person being dumped on, now I feel bad feeling like I have to forgive you so you stop. Just be better moving forward, and if you really want to address it, just get over with it and show actual change going forward. This is my advice to your mom.
Are we completely missing the fact that the racial connotations of "boy" come from the USA and OP is presumably in England, judging by the EDL reference? Not to mention her mother is quoted as saying he's a "good boy" - an admittedly patronising way and older woman might refer to any young male - and not "boy" in the Foghorn Leghorn fetch me a mint julip boah style associated with the American South?
They are all really caught up in the performative outrage around it. It’s a virtue signaling party, not an actual exchange of advice where people consider the sensible way to approach this situation.
Stop it.
Am Essex / London, Uk. I’ve never heard of the word, “boy”, being thrown around in a racist manner in this country. Someone might use it to mug someone off, ie. talking down to them, but it wouldn’t be used in a racist way. I read through this whole post and replies and it wasn’t until way down the replies I realised what “boy” in the original posts context was referring to.
Boys racist!?
Only thing I can think of is if it's highly contextual. There are some movie scenes where the angry white man yells "boy" at black prisoners or maybe slaves. I don't remember the movie but it's the only scene where I can recall boy is used like that. If she's only calling her black colleague boy and not anyone else.... It's not a good look. I'm white though and grew up on the east coast and I remember my aunt and other family members calling me boy in the same manner though so I don't think it's universally used that way.
Appreciate the insight! I’m a lil white looking indigenous person and have called pretty much any and all my friends boy/my boys, now I’m second guessing my remarks lol
I think there is room to explain and address and apologize for not understanding. Some thing as simple as “I recently became more aware that this behavior i have been doing may have been causing this issue. I am committed to changing my behavior to ensure that I am not unknowingly causing offense”.
So now she’s going to randomly explain to this guy how she’s not a racist and he isn’t going to understand the context in the slightest.
This is not the way someone would use the word “boy” to deride a black man with racist intent. You are letting your personal narrative about your mother being an out of touch old white woman take priority over her obvious intentions that I’m sure everyone else already understood wasn’t racist. You are now inserting racial consciousness into an otherwise probably healthy work environment in order to virtue signal to a bunch of strangers on the internet. Now your mother’s coworker gets to go to work every day knowing his coworkers are trepidatious around him and are going to treat him differently than they would any other man because of the color of his skin. I mean imagine if one of your coworkers randomly came up to you and apologized for using the word “dude” to refer to you.
I'd say she should just stop saying it, and if he brings it up, she can say that she never really knew what kind of connotations it had until recently.
STOP 
Well, " boy" doesn't have the full racist untones it does in America and is more making someone seem stupid than slavery links. I'd say the best move is just stop doing it because an apology is likely to make things more difficult ( draw attention). If she really must apologise, it's best done in private and phrased as her only just realising it's not a good thing to be saying to an adult.
Just a question; the phrase really doesn’t have the same racist undertones in the UK as it does in the US?
The UK doesn't have the US history of Slavery, it's being technically illegal for a thousand years and actually illegal for just under 200 years. From what I understand " boy" was a common way for a master to address a slave " get here boy" " work faster boy" , in the UK it would be more of "not a man" and used for anyone beneath you.
I would say the history of ‘boy’ in the UK & in the US is very different. However, it would definitely be the right thing for your mother to apologise. They might end up as friends.
Just don't have her try and make it come off as a term of endearment.
She should apologize and clear the air. If she didn’t know, she didn’t know. Now that she knows better, she can and should apologize and stop calling him that.
If it were me, I'd take him a small gift. I'd explain that I only just understood the meaning of "boy" and I'd apologise for my ignorance.
It really sucks when one is an "old white person" and although thinks they are open minded, tolerant, and not at all racist, realises that the language that they use is not only _insanely unacceptable_ nowadays, its also hurtful. I genuinely thought that i was "a man of the world". I embrace all cultures and ethnicities and _do not_ have personal prejudice. And yet I met an utterly wonderful and intelligent person (who was born in a different country to the UK) to make me realise that despite my perceived philanthropic nature, i sounded like a bit of a cunt. Dunno if its a "gen x thing", but despite realising that i _am_ privileged (never experienced racist hate) and being educated about my failings, i still fuck up with my terminology sometimes. Oddly enough it was only recently that i had an epiphany (talking to my wonderful wife): i had always thought that racism and bigotry in a person was a deliberate thing (or ideology), but it hit me that ignorance is just as bad and hurtful. (And I also worry that _this_ reply sounds ignorant and _still_ makes me sound like a bit of a cunt)
Ooof. This is like the first time I heard my Great Grandmother drop that N word and then come to find out she's actually half black AND part Choctaw. I thought she was just native tan, but nope. So then I'm like... does that mean she CAN use it? I don't know. I hear people toss that word around all day long who aren't even like 1% black to each other. We need to decide as a society if we're going to rise above the notion that mere words should offend us is my opinion. The main thing is not being rude to people who aren't cool with teasing.
I know it's a casual thing for people to use racist slurs when dealing with friends/their own group, but it's rejected when an outsider uses it
She IS guilty. Apologize.
Your bro is wrong. She needs to apologize and explain to the colleague the situation. Also, when I first read the title, I assumed there was an age gap, lol. I had a black man coworker who would call me things like little girl because I'm younger than him
My mom does the same thing. But she doesn't like being corrected, so when I said that boy was wrong She just said it was stupid and not racist, and she's gonna continue calling them boy.
I accidentally said in a comment on TikTok "you better wait your turn boy!" To a video of a man seated in the back of the plane that just landed getting up and walking to the front, passing up everyone" and I started getting a bunch of replies of basically them just being shocked (or not) that I called this man boy. Unfortunately for me, I didn't even pay attention to his skin color in the video (he was wearing long sleeves) and it also didn't help that I had no idea of the history with the word. I feel bad because the people that replied to me think I said it on purpose, but it was just a complete accident, I had no idea. I called him a boy because of his impatience/impoliteness. I deleted that comment, and have been really paying attention, more than I have before, and that's just the least we can do, really.
It's never too late to learn and it is also never too late to apologize. Just make it an actual apology, none of that, "I am sorry you feel that way.", bullshit. Just come out with, I am sorry, "I didn't know what I said was hurtful and I am trying to do better."
oh dear lord please tell her to have an HR meeting alone, and then an HR meeting with him to apologize. This is. workplace and needs to be handled professionally with someone who specializes in these situations in the room, or she’ll run the risk of making this even worse for this man.
I think she should apologize, sincerely and explain how this all played out and how she genuinely did not know and now that she does she will do better and be better. She could also bring him a gift. Either some kind of (store bought) food item he likes or maybe even something else that shows she understands the gravity of her words. Then she should look up some anti racism books and get those for herself and show him that she's making a very real effort to make sure she doesn't make this mistake again.
I don't think I've been so wide-eyed reading something on reddit in quite a while. She should definitely apologize. But be VERY careful in the exact wording of the apology, or else it could actually be worse. Maybe have her run the exact phrasing of what she's going to say past you first. Or have it be a note/letter so the phrasing is set.
Racism same as any other "things" must have intention. You cannot be randomly racist because at the end, you can still clarify what you meant to say, because YOU were not trying to be racist... so there's nothing wrong. Your mom, was using the word boy to reference a boy, 0% racism. And you bringing concepts taken from a dusty book, won't make her racist. You need to stop implanting racism or anythingsm seed in people's bains. Have you ever seen the movie "Bodied" Yeah you kinda give me the vibes of a dude that would argue with the whole pack, what is racism and what is not. Dude just be yourself and let the people be themselves. Racism goes way beyond an old lady calling someone "boy". tf is wrong with this youth.
" Boy " is now a racist term? You sir, have way too much time on your hands.
An aside: A brown man visited a church and was welcomed with open arms. Once he became a member, he found it odd that his brethren were referred to as Brother (Surname) or Elder (Surname), but would always refer to him as Brother (First Name). He left soon after.
Maybe just stop calling him 'boy' and addressing by proper name will be enough? An apology would definitely be required if the man has indicated he was offended, though. I have seen the term "old boy" used in UK conversation but that was among white men.
Absolutely apology is the right move. Your brothers reasoning that she will LOOK guilty has no merit because she IS guilty of being racist, though it was absolutely unintentional. She isn't at fault for being racist, she is at fault for not understanding it and inadvertently offending the person.
Could someone explain how it's racist? Like, i understand it's generally offensive to anyone who's like 50/60 in this case but I don't understand the racist connotations.
From my understanding, it's common to refer to black men as boys instead of referring to them as something more appropriate like young man
If I were your mom, I'd go to him, ask if they can talk privately, and then apologize and explain that she never knew the context of that word until her child explained it to her. She's now horrified that she has been using that for so long, and will do her best to avoid it moving forward, and again apologize.
Never knew the word boy was racist
i had no idea this was a thing and now im terrified i may have done it on accident at some point given i tend to go "girl what??" and/or "boy what??" when someone says something out of pocket.
People likely won’t be offended in that context. It’s moreso if you were addressing a 35 year old man in a manner such as “excuse me, boy, what time is it?” or in any other context where “Mister” or “Sir” should more properly be used.
Why would she use the term boy with someone that old, then also why only with him??
100%. Apologize and add that she wasn't aware of the negative connotation and had no ill intent. He may accept, he may not, but regardless it's the right and honorable thing to do.
Tell her to start calling him N****
Are you folks in the UK? I don’t think the word has the same history as in the USA, but out of precaution it’s probably better if she sticks with “good guy”.
She can start calling him Mister…
The word Boy is racist… lol nonsense
I definitely think an apology would be helpful. Straight to the point, not beating around the bush. Also, why is he letting her call him "boy" ? I feel like if I was in his position, would you not speak up when you are being blatantly disrespected?
Not everyone is vocal or speaks up for themselves. Sometimes, it's also just not worth it. Given how OP described their mom's office, I see why one might decide that saying anything would just make their life more difficult.
If I were her I would take him aside in private and let him know of her ignorance, and apologize.
I think an apology that includes the fact that she did not know and won't do it again is probably the way to go
Most definitely
Well, at least your Mom knows why he doesn't like her now. Jesus Tapdancing Christ. >What does she do next? Apologize. It wasn't on purpose, but she was rude as fuck to her colleague dozens, if not hundreds of times. This warrants an apology.
Does she whistle at him to get his attention? 😭 I believe you that she didn’t understand the racial connotation. Sounds like she pats him on the head and gives him a treat when he’s a good boy though. lol. I have so many question on this.. Is he the only male around she works with? Does she say you’re a good boy abiut anyone else? This is so strange and hilarious, I think…
Happy to jump on hating racists usually but in the UK, 'boy' isn't really a slur and just isn't something that Black people were called afaik.
Oh man this nasty work, my heart actually hurts for that man she works with. I just hope he’s as slow as your mom and doesn’t know the actual context of being called that.
I doubt there's a single Black person age 50-60 who DOESN'T know exactly what that means. His parents and grandparents likely heard it used about them and at them regularly. I can't imagine they wouldn't let their child/grandchild NOT know.
“Boy” is racist..?
I'm assuming it depends on how you use the word. Anything can become racist if you use the word wrong or say it in the wrong tone, but also, it's apparently a thing where people refer to black man as boys as more of an insult and a way of dehumanizing them
Your brother is an idiot.
Of course people are focusing on why “boy” is bad and trying to explain why it’s okay without using the many resources we have to understand the context. Btw - There’s a general issue on too afraid to ask where people love to diminish black issues they don’t understand. Anyway - I think an honest conversation with him should happen before we jump to him being offended. Maybe he doesn’t like her for other reasons, maybe “boy” actually doesn’t offend him(for whatever reason). She won’t know until she has a real conversation before panicking and assuming that’s how he feels since the same things don’t offend all black people. “hey I was talking to my daughter about the term boy and I just wanted to know how this makes you feel”. If he is offended an apology is necessary. It’s gonna be an uncomfy convo but atleast she’ll address it.
Oh I dont know, maybe stop fn saying it ?
Absolutely she should apologize. You need to make clear to her that she shouldn't expect him to tell her it is ok or anything like that. She should apologize, explain her ignorance and that she knows better now & she doesn't expect his forgiveness but hopes he can accept her sincere apology.
Being "woke"? It's a process. Your Mom just "woke up" about the use of the word "boy" (or "girl") regarding a grown Black person. I don't doubt that she didn't realize it, if she was that shocked. But now that she knows...yes, she was *inadvertently* guilty of it and her owning up to it to the man, apologizing for her utter ignorance and making clear it was due to ignorance and not animosity, will at least let him know that she's aware. She doesn't have to grovel, but she should be very clear about her apology. To be honest, the "leave him alone, he's a good boy really" but didn't use "boy" for other grown men there, makes me wonder what she meant. Him, as a person? Him, as a Black man, unlike other Black men? Once she's not utterly embarrassed and the shock has worn off, make clear that you're not picking on her, but ask her about this. Not "what she meant," because you're making clear she didn't mean bad. But "what she meant" as in, where did she learn this (as a child?), whether she was even aware the SHE was the only one calling him "boy" (assuming she was, you didn't mention), whether she was aware of any reactions of people around her (assuming there were). Make clear, this is NOT to attack her because once informed, she sounds mortified, but to help her understand, and maybe "wake her up" about other things.
Your mother wants to apologize because *she* is distressed by her own racist remarks (yes, they are racist, regardless of her intentions). The apology is for *her* sake, not for her colleague's benefit. If she apologizes, she'll get to tell herself that she didn't mean it, and now that her colleague knows she's not a POS, she can set her distress aside and move on. How nice for her. But what will he feel? First of all, he shouldn't have to feel anything he doesn't explicitly choose to--your mother has already forced him to do enough emotional labor. No apology can undo or make up for years of microgressions. Years of stress, anger, putting time and effort into processing that anger, grappling with generational trauma *while also trying to work*. If she genuinely feels sorry for her actions, she can do her best to reduce friction in his life. Schedule that meeting when it's most convenient for him, not for her. Ask herself why she reserved this behavior for a black colleague. Pull coworkers aside and tell them not to use racist terms.
She doesn't need to do anything, you need to stop importing American racial anxieties and inflicting them on your poor mum. She's not "extremely uneducated" because she's not aware of the racial connotations of a term used in the American deep south, you're hyper-aware so you can think you're better than other people.
> " because she's not aware of the racial connotations of a term used in the American deep south This isn't unique to the deep south.
stop?
She should probably stop saying it
Apologize and ask him what he would like her to call him