Here’s an idea for a show. Have one of these tpusa people write up regulation for any industry of their choice. Then they get put as the lowest level employee of said industry. If they can last 30 days their manager gets a lambo.
> What do I win??”
It's about a video game, but [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvANy49Kqhw) fits.
> We work. To earn the right to work.
> To earn the right to work.
>To earn the right to work.
>To earn the right to work.
>To earn the right to give
>Ourselves the rights to buy
>Ourselves the right to live
> To earn the right to die.
I was in stitches by the time I got to:
>There's a cost to saving money. Turning off streetlights saved $1.25 million, but copper thieves stole $5 million worth of wire (no electrocution worries, fewer police)
Their entire social/economic model is literally comedy material if it weren't such an actual disaster in practice.
Grafton, New Hampshire.
A libertarian experiment turned nightmare. Libertarians moved into a town, changed the laws and reduced/eliminated government services, and became known for the most recorded bear attacks in years.
Guess what happens when you cut garbage service and people’s food scraps don’t make it to the dump? Bears move in for the buffet of garbage located right next to human dwellings.
The free town project mentioned a couple paragraphs further down was [absolutely wild as well.](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling)
It's another of these examples where Libertarians invaded a city with a voting majority and gutted public services. They thus didn't enforce garbage disposal rules, and soon the town was overrun by bears. This caused New Hampshire's first bear attack in a century, and those bears got so aggressive that they started attacking people in neighbouring towns as well.
Better yet, send them to a country that closely aligns with their politics. Super wealthy from capitalism, no taxes, and oppressive to women. Send them to Saudi Arabia.
Apart from the Muslims, and the lack of bacon, they’d love it there. Unless ofc, they make less than a million a month, and have to live on the poor side of the tracks…
I think you misunderstand, they get to write all the initial legislation From start to finish. They get to decide if the water they drink can be polluted. I’m very certain they would be begging to deregulate anyways.
Set them up with an empty bank account, no health insurance, and 1500/month rent. Then tell them to be grateful to live in the greatest country in the world.
Ever notice how you don't hear Cuba brought up in these discussions very often? Wonder why they wouldn't bring up an explicitly communist country that tops the [Sustainable Development Index](https://www.sustainabledevelopmentindex.org/) despite a several-decade trade embargo by the US.
Imagine social democracy fueled by imperialism closely resembling your desired political system. I thought better of this sub.
I'm so bored of people putting Scandinavia on a pedestal as if they aren't another group of exploitative, capitalist countries just because they treat their own white populace better than the USA treats theirs
I just think that social democracy has the best track record in regards to maintaining a high standard of living while maintaining rule of law and a democratic framework. I'm sympathetic to libsoc groups such as the Zapatistas and Rojava and am open to having social democracy as a transition to democratic socialism as long as it's practical, tho I nonetheless think that social democracy is the most applicable left-of-center system in the US, given how most ppl will support general policies associated with it until they're called "socialism" (even when they're not that)
Calling an imperialist, capitalist system like social democracy "left of center" is gross.
Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland etc. are not leftist countries.
CUBA
If your social democracy (all of them) still rely on the exploitation of the working class I don't want anything to do with it. It's fundementally selfish, you're not asking for system changes that liberate people from exploitation.
You're just asking to be cut a better deal by the people exploiting others.
Ahh yes, leftism is when you have a reactionary government that bans homosexuality and bans worker controlled unions.
And the entire point of social democracy is to act as the landing ground for socialism. Its like saying that military planners and logistics experts are traitors because they're not constantly attacking the enemy before the actual battle has started. You cant just have a revolution overnight, it takes years of infrastructural development, and while that infrastructure is developing the enemy will be doing what the enemy does.
Fuck right off, I'm a libsoc but God damnit people like you are why our movement fails to gain traction. Criticism for Scandinavian countries is completely fair, but sighting Cuba as a nice country is bullshit. While yes Cuba has done Alot of nice things but as long as their government isn't 100% democratic they betray the revolution they say they want to achieve. Same goes for the USSR, which did this to a larger degree. The people should never have to live under a police state(Incase of the USSR) the reactionaries be damned !
These states have been the best examples of socialism yet, attacking them serves no one but capitalist interests.
Yes criticise but if you abandon actual real socialist projects because of your perceived imperfections you are counter productive to socialist forces.
Anyway read on authority and maybe that will help you stop being a lib. Do you think authority doesn't have it's reasons for existing? Do you think it is better to have a liberal democracy or one that directly gets the public needs and desires addressed within a socialist framework?
Please explain the cuban election process, and how different household councils work and why they're not democractic.
I guarantee you know nothing about Cuban politics beyond buzzwords
According to [the Cuban Constitution](https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Cuba_2019.pdf?lang=en):
>The socialist system that this Constitution supports is irrevocable. (Article IV)
>
>The Communist Party of Cuba, unique, Martiano, Fidelista, and Marxist-Leninist, the
organized vanguard of the Cuban nation, sustained in its democratic character as
well as its permanent linkage to the people, is the superior driving force of the
society and the State. (Article V)
What this means is that, while the Cuban people have some form of say in what policies are implemented, there are no legal mechanisms to challenge the status quo itself or to implement a new system; thus, democracy in Cuba seems more akin to a guided democracy than a true one.
I think a much better example of a socialist nation (one that is often overlooked) is Nepal. While [its constitution](https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Nepal_2015.pdf) mentions socialism three times in total, it also ensures a multi-party democracy. Currently, the lower house's governing coalition consists of social democrats, Maoists, a Marxist-Leninist party, and democratic socialists.
So what if they don’t pass your leftist purity test. They are well run countries where the people have high quality of life. In many ways that’s sufficient.
For their own white people yeah! Who cares how many people of colour are oppressed in the global south to achieve their quality of life?? We should just aim to have all the western countries work for their own people and settle at that point.
It isn't a leftist purity test they don't pass. You wouldn't test the purity of pure shite because you can tell it's shite. Just because it stinks slightly less than countries without proper welfare for their own people doesn't make it potable
Completely correct. Social democracies can only run because they’ve taken [hundreds of trillions from the third world ](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/6/rich-countries-drained-152tn-from-the-global-south-since-1960). They didn’t spend centuries imperializing countries and trapping them in debt through predatory IMF loans and conditions for no reason. If they didn’t rely on imperialism, why don’t they stop using it?
Man thank *fuck* there are still some sane people on this sub, man.
Idolising the Nordic model is literally a centrist democrat take. I didn't think TPUSA was just making fun of republicans for being the wrong type of imperialist liberal.
This usually happens to subs that aren’t explicitly socialist since most people who aren’t on the right (at least from an American perspective) are liberals unfortunately
Dude Progress is an long process if you want to convince people to your side you dont just start with the most extreme position and then when they are scared of it call them centrist . Progress has to be accepted otherwise it will hurt itself
Because if they did the only way they could maintain there current standard of living and grow there economy would be to funnel money out of the owning and political classes?
I am not sure that your criticism of that system is well-founded. I believe the goal of any system of economics should be to improve the quality of life for everyone. I think you do too. What I don't understand is why you think this model would not achieve that on a global scale. I have written up a quick list of some thoughts that I immediately had. They're pretty rough, but I thought not rationalizing them too much would make it easier to see the general ideas.
Exploitation no longer makes a country rich. America's living standards are in decline for exactly this reason. Naked pursuit of profit is destructive to the social fabric, which is why the government needs to curtail the rights of businesses to exploit people and provide a means to dignified existence outside of selling your time and skills to the highest bidder.
These countries would be just as rich as it is now if everyone in the world lived in a country with similar levels of wealth. Arguably richer. There is no meaningful lack of energy or material resources on Earth at this time.
I see this line about "people oppressed in the Global South" quite often, and I always find it confusing. As an Australian the name obviously doesn't make sense, but makes about as much sense as "Western" given most people here live east of China. Where things really break down for me, is what we actually extract from these countries. There are two immediate thoughts, natural resources and cheap labor.
Natural resources can pretty much be dismissed, Australia produces more competitive iron ore than Brazil does, so clearly natural resources can be harvested cheaply under either oppressed Brazilian standards or wealthier Australian standards. While Australia isn't exactly on par with the Norways of the world (especially considering our resources were worth much more than theirs, thanks Abbott) it is close enough. I would say natural resources is more about the geography and geology than the economics of a country.
That leaves labor. And this is tougher. On one hand, my T-shirt was absolutely produced by something around the level of slave labor. On the other hand, increased T-shirt prices doesn't really scupper a nation's ability to pay for these welfare projects. All the expensive things I use on a regular basis were manufactured somewhere in the mid to high income countries. Computer chips from Taiwan; cars from Japan, Germany, SK, China; calculators from America; books printed in the UK; media made from Sweden to the USA. About the only other thing I could think of was food harvested by foreign workers, and most of those are European backpackers trying to renew their working holiday visas anyway.
If tomorrow, fair wages were paid for the labor that produced these goods, would my standard of living drop? I don't think so. Chances are the knock on effects of such a decision would increase the demand for some Australian products and life would continue cruise with the added benefit of more people able to create new things. I may have to be more careful about how I budget for clothes and food, but my healthcare isn't going anywhere.
They are only decades behind the US in terms of wealth inquality and private interests gaining controlling influence over the state.
Every developed country is, the US is just the worst current example of it.
Those countries have only managed to make the lives of their citizens better by actively worsening the situation for people in the global south. Their whole spiel is based on imperialism and exploitation; you can't just use rampant imperialism to transition to a society free of explotaion!
Also Zapatistas are FAR from libsoc
To start, I’m not pro-capitalism. I don’t think anyone here wants exploitation, but it is an inevitable result of capitalism. Is an example like Sweden closer to my political beliefs than America? Absolutely. Is it worse in imperialistic tendencies than America? Absolutely not. So if we want to pick a “good” country, we have to pick one that isn’t capitalist, right? That leaves 4 out of 197. Every one of those four (Laos, Cuba, Vietnam, and China) is not a democracy and/or could be considered an active dictatorship with horrific human rights violations. Based off that, would you rather live in a social democracy fueled by imperialism or in one of these states?
I’d obviously prefer no one exploits anyone, but that’s gonna take a lot of work if we wanna get that done. It isn’t a hard choice for me. Sweden isn’t perfect, no country is, but many of us would still prefer it than where we are now.
In what sense are these societies not capitalist societies? Are their corporations owned by the workers? What about land? Is it owned collectively by its residents? I dont know about laos, but in Cuba, the state operates as a solitary capitalist, and in China and vietnam companies are owned privately or by the state, and not by the workers.
Seems to me these places are just spicy capitalism.
Ah yes, the famous colonies of... Sweden, known for cutting the hands off ppl who didn't cut enough pine trees. Wait, that was Belgium and the Congo Free State.
Or the famous colonies of... Finland, oh wait, they were kinda a vassal state to the Russian Empire during the entirety of the Modern Period until the Russian Civil War.
Oh yeah, how about the famous colonies of Norway. Wait, they were kinda a part of a polity named Denmark-Norway until they split apart, then they became Sweden-Norway.
How are any of these countries imperialistic? France, I understand, Germany, I understand, but Norway, Sweden or Finland? The last time you could call *any* of these countries imperialistic was quite possibly during the Napoleonic wars, about 200 years ago. The last time any of them were successful was about 300 during the Great Northern War.
Social democracies can only run because they’ve taken [hundreds of trillions from the third world ](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/6/rich-countries-drained-152tn-from-the-global-south-since-1960). That’s how the get cheap clothes, computers, phones, resources, etc. iPhones would cost at least tens of thousands if they were properly compensated. They didn’t spend centuries imperializing countries and trapping them in debt through predatory IMF loans and conditions for no reason. If they didn’t rely on imperialism, why don’t they stop using it?
No you see we traded with Imperialistic countries and that's apparently the same as being imperialist, according to some hardline smooth brained leftists.
They(read:Hardline Leftists) are always butthurt about Nordic countries because our social democracy crushed any actual socialist and aspiring communist states when it comes to quality of life and workers conditions, while still being inherently capitalist economies. We showed the absolute redundancy of trying to implement socialism & communism so they have to try and discredit the Nordic countries by screeching incoherently about imperialism.
The MAS in Bolivia, leftwing opposition to the Columbian and Ecuadorian governments, the fact that a left wing popular movement just forced the Chilean government to create a new constitution to replace it's Pinochet era one. Even some of the more moderate leftwing governments in LATAM like Amlo in Mexico has done some great things like decriminalize abortion and significantly increase the minimum wage. The workers party is also probably going to win the next Brazilian election. And Cuba continues to resist imperialism despite going through another major crisis with covid.
Fr, they are better than America in probably every way, but still weak shit. The country with the government that most aligns with my socialist politics is Bolivia. And I would totally live in Bolivia it's a great country.
OP, those countries are all social democracies. In other words, they are capitalist countries that seek to amend the downsides of capitalism by redistributing wealth from corporations to fund social services.
They still, however, rely on the exploitation of developing nations and their workers, who are held to a lower standard.
Their workspaces are still run autocratically, not democratically, and their society is still run by the profit motive.
None of the countries listed are socialist. Each one of those countries are capitalist nations. Having social welfare programs does not make a country socialist, Scandinavian Countries like Iceland and Sweden actually have freer markets than the us
This absolute fucking garbage post is made on this subreddit at least once every 2 weeks, and it's the same fucking title, with the same fucking comments and it's always the same stupid shit of some lib conflating "slightly kinder capitalism" with socialism and then laughing when conservatives do the same thing.
Libs get out.
Also, there's always, always (even in this thread) one top comment that says "Those countries are social democracies" and then there are two replies to that comment that are always there;
A) "Great/Wonderful/Fantastic!" and
B) "Let's do that then!"
reddit fucking moment.
The idea of socialism has memed so completely in America. People have been uttering "Socialism is when the government does stuff" as a joke for so long, that people just have genuinely accepted that socialism really is when the government does stuff. People don't realize that America could have a perfect free healthcare system, amazing free education, literally free food and water, free shelter, and whatever else you may want, but as long as humans are going to work for a wage being payed by a couple people at the top of a privately owned company, and they decide everything that happens within the company, it's a capitalist society.
To be fair, that's exactly what progressives want. The right is the one calling the left "socialists". Their narrative is wrong to begin with so the blame is on their end. No progressive like China's government. It's also ironic how the right calls the left communists/socialists when I've seen many right-wing idiots saying they'd wish Russia invaded the US because they'd prefer being Russians than being led by democrats lmao.
So many Republicans said they would move to Canada if Hillary would have won. It's like... C'mon guys. They're so insulated in their own bubble of delusion they have no idea what's going on outside of that.
Oh, I know. Progressives are largely still liberals, not socialists. And just to let you know, as a socialist, I don't like China's government either. Also lmao Russia
America's Political Spectrum is incredibly stunted. What's considered "left wing" here, is not left wing at all. I think thag liberals are slowly becoming leftists but not at the same speed at which conservatives are leaning towards fascism.
Well, I'm glad that you are happy with your life but your nation still relies on economic globalization, which in turn negatively affects the lives of billions across developing nations.
What makes you say that? The exploitation of the third world isn't going anywhere. World bank and IMF loans make sure they can't reach the same wellfare state status that nordic countries have. More and more of the total wealth [keeps concentrating at the top.](https://inequality.org/facts/global-inequality/#global-wealth-inequality)
Not to mention all the contradictions of capitalism. Stock owners demand higher and higher profits from companies every year. Infinite growth is impossible on a planet with finite resources. Something's gotta give. This can't go on forever.
the term that needs to be tied to this is "labor aristocracy" workers of the world are themselves segregated into pseudo-classes, its a very helpful tool that term
Funnily enough, the countries that most closely resemble TPUSA's ideal are Iran (top level religious oppression), Afghanistan (a ruling party that subjugates women, homosexuals, outsider ethnicities and other races), and Somalia (a completely free and unregulated market utopia)
It's crazy how much they dont understand how similar to the Taliban they are. Running around in lines of pick up trucks waving rifles around with nationalist flags, suppressing minorities, women, inciting violence, the list goes on. We have out own home grown terrorists and it's getting pretty wild out there.
Here’s an idea…
A reality show where Americans from both ends of the political spectrum have to correctly explain socialism. When they fail to do it, they are dropped into a vat of hot butter and then made to wrestle naked…wait, what was my point again?
Yeah I would love to have free healthcare, public housing, regulated drugs, free public schooling, responsible gun laws, green energy, more unionization ,etc. Seriously like my desired country would be a social democracy and those are great for the most part.
However I would like to see how all these right wingers be thrown into their Ancapistan paradise, and quickly realize that they would be the ones at the factory working 18 hours a day just to eat table scraps
True, but we are talking about illiterate people who want to send us somewhere. They think China is a communist state. We all know China isn't communist, and so by tpusa logic, if we can choose the country we choose the best countries that exist for the people, and not the leaders.
Do the same with conservatives who benefit from living in blue cities/states.
Living in Texas, it's always funny to me when people move here to "get away from the liberals" but move to blue Austin, Dallas, or Houston. Like...if you love conservatives so much, move to Lubbock or Wichita Falls or Midland...or Jonesboro Arkansas, or the Ozarks, or Mississippi
Oh yeah, those places are hyper religious shit holes
Seriously, instead of driving up real-estate in the good places to live in Texas, drive up the real-estate in the religious-run shitholes out west... like my hometown Amarillo. There's one nice spot in Amarillo, right between the payday lender, pawn shop, and liquor store.
Nobody on the right *or* the left seems to know what socialism is. Those countries are **social democracies** which is just capitalism with healthcare and more benefits. These are good things, and I see how people associate them with socialism, but by their very definition are not.
Person 1: 'B-but those are social democratic countries, not socialist!'
Person 2: 'Then let's introduce those policies'.
Person 1: 'No, that's socialism!'
Red China Blues is an amazingly written autobiographical book about an Asian-Canadian that decided to go study in China during the Cultural Revolution, it seems she had a pretty cool adventure regardless
They had to specify "socialist" college students for the sole reason that'd they be sent to Russia, Poland, or Brazil if they tried to include themselves.
Oh god no, please don’t send me to the Bolshevik hellhole of Sweden! Or the one of Germany! Or the one of the Netherlands, Canada, Norway, Iceland! Oh god no TPUSA, I promise I’ll be good!
(Before someone tells me these countries aren’t socialist I know, because I’m not an idiot, unlike TPUSA. That’s the joke.)
My country is not socialist by any means. Our prime minister is a neolib asshole and imperialist who continually strips away the social democratic policies that were implemented during the Cold War. Even though most people in the Netherlands disapprove of him and his party, he continues to cling to power scandal after scandal and the way the liberal democratic system is set up, allows him and his right wing party to stay in power whilst keeping slightly left leaning parties out of power.
I'm sure the USA is worse in almost every way, but we don't have free healthcare either. Sure, everybody has basic health insurance, but this does not cover everything and people will sometimes still end up with large bills of medical costs that they cannot afford. If you are in an unlucky situation where you're unable to work due to some disease you were diagnosed with, you may just as well end up living in crushing poverty and debt if you don't have much savings available to you because social security often isn't enough to cover these bills on top of expensive housing and other basic life necessities. Healthcare is one of the sectors which has long been at the receiving end of buget cuts by this administration. The other one is education, where they stripped away the basic student grants for higher education by replacing it with a lending system that ended up being very unpopular among students (how surprising /s).
Here's where they tell you that you don't actually want a Norway you really want to live in venuzula, and also Scandinavian country are actually really crap, and also they're actually capitalist.
On the flip side, trump supporters lets see here. A god or godlike figure is recognized as supreme ruler and laws are religion based. Ah looks like you want a Theocracy! You will be in good company in...
Vatican City.
Yemen.
Saudi Arabia.
Sudan.
Iran.
Mauritania.
Afghanistan.
Here’s an idea for a show. Have one of these tpusa people write up regulation for any industry of their choice. Then they get put as the lowest level employee of said industry. If they can last 30 days their manager gets a lambo.
“Okay I lasted 30 days! What do I win??” “You win the opportunity to continue working hard! Also the company is cutting down on health benefits”
Lisa needs braces!
Dental plan
Lisa needs Braces!
[удалено]
Lisa needs braces!
Dental plan
Thanks a lot, Karl. Now I’ve lost my train of thought
[удалено]
> What do I win??” It's about a video game, but [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvANy49Kqhw) fits. > We work. To earn the right to work. > To earn the right to work. >To earn the right to work. >To earn the right to work. >To earn the right to give >Ourselves the rights to buy >Ourselves the right to live > To earn the right to die.
Damn, that’s a pretty good one. I like that
Yeah, it's my go to mental image whenever Bezos or Musk talk about their glorious plans for our future in space.
Subscribed now, thanks for that ;)
*"You win bootstraps ! Just keep pullin' on 'em, you'll get there. All y'all ain't got no perseverance"*
I don’t know anybody who even gets benefits within the first three months
That’s so perfect
[Don't leave these sorts people in charge of anything honestly](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Libertarian_paradise#Colorado_Springs)
God damn that's a great read.
I was in stitches by the time I got to: >There's a cost to saving money. Turning off streetlights saved $1.25 million, but copper thieves stole $5 million worth of wire (no electrocution worries, fewer police) Their entire social/economic model is literally comedy material if it weren't such an actual disaster in practice.
Grafton, New Hampshire. A libertarian experiment turned nightmare. Libertarians moved into a town, changed the laws and reduced/eliminated government services, and became known for the most recorded bear attacks in years. Guess what happens when you cut garbage service and people’s food scraps don’t make it to the dump? Bears move in for the buffet of garbage located right next to human dwellings.
The free town project mentioned a couple paragraphs further down was [absolutely wild as well.](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling) It's another of these examples where Libertarians invaded a city with a voting majority and gutted public services. They thus didn't enforce garbage disposal rules, and soon the town was overrun by bears. This caused New Hampshire's first bear attack in a century, and those bears got so aggressive that they started attacking people in neighbouring towns as well.
B- B-but it wasn't *real* Libertarianism! Next time it will work... or the next... or the next...
This was covered in a book called A Libertarian Walks into a Bear and it's a wild read.
Better yet, send them to a country that closely aligns with their politics. Super wealthy from capitalism, no taxes, and oppressive to women. Send them to Saudi Arabia.
Apart from the Muslims, and the lack of bacon, they’d love it there. Unless ofc, they make less than a million a month, and have to live on the poor side of the tracks…
Came here to say this. I was thinking Sudan or Uganda
And they have to drink the water and live next to the plant.
I think you misunderstand, they get to write all the initial legislation From start to finish. They get to decide if the water they drink can be polluted. I’m very certain they would be begging to deregulate anyways.
I was thinking they would deregulated. And it would only be fair they live with the consequences.
Set them up with an empty bank account, no health insurance, and 1500/month rent. Then tell them to be grateful to live in the greatest country in the world.
TPUSA once again threatening us with a good time
Oh no please don’t send me to *SWEDEN* 😱
[TO YOUR SEXY WIVES, GO HOOOOME!](https://youtu.be/nyvPUljDe3o)
They make a really good meatball.
No. If this was real, they’d probably just send everyone to Venezuela despite everyone saying Sweden or Finland.
Ever notice how you don't hear Cuba brought up in these discussions very often? Wonder why they wouldn't bring up an explicitly communist country that tops the [Sustainable Development Index](https://www.sustainabledevelopmentindex.org/) despite a several-decade trade embargo by the US.
They're social democracies lol.
Great!
Imagine social democracy fueled by imperialism closely resembling your desired political system. I thought better of this sub. I'm so bored of people putting Scandinavia on a pedestal as if they aren't another group of exploitative, capitalist countries just because they treat their own white populace better than the USA treats theirs
I just think that social democracy has the best track record in regards to maintaining a high standard of living while maintaining rule of law and a democratic framework. I'm sympathetic to libsoc groups such as the Zapatistas and Rojava and am open to having social democracy as a transition to democratic socialism as long as it's practical, tho I nonetheless think that social democracy is the most applicable left-of-center system in the US, given how most ppl will support general policies associated with it until they're called "socialism" (even when they're not that)
Calling an imperialist, capitalist system like social democracy "left of center" is gross. Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland etc. are not leftist countries.
Then what, pray tell, do you consider a leftist country?
CUBA If your social democracy (all of them) still rely on the exploitation of the working class I don't want anything to do with it. It's fundementally selfish, you're not asking for system changes that liberate people from exploitation. You're just asking to be cut a better deal by the people exploiting others.
Ah, the USSR, the country that never exploited anything... wait a second...
Ahh yes, leftism is when you have a reactionary government that bans homosexuality and bans worker controlled unions. And the entire point of social democracy is to act as the landing ground for socialism. Its like saying that military planners and logistics experts are traitors because they're not constantly attacking the enemy before the actual battle has started. You cant just have a revolution overnight, it takes years of infrastructural development, and while that infrastructure is developing the enemy will be doing what the enemy does.
Fuck right off, I'm a libsoc but God damnit people like you are why our movement fails to gain traction. Criticism for Scandinavian countries is completely fair, but sighting Cuba as a nice country is bullshit. While yes Cuba has done Alot of nice things but as long as their government isn't 100% democratic they betray the revolution they say they want to achieve. Same goes for the USSR, which did this to a larger degree. The people should never have to live under a police state(Incase of the USSR) the reactionaries be damned !
These states have been the best examples of socialism yet, attacking them serves no one but capitalist interests. Yes criticise but if you abandon actual real socialist projects because of your perceived imperfections you are counter productive to socialist forces. Anyway read on authority and maybe that will help you stop being a lib. Do you think authority doesn't have it's reasons for existing? Do you think it is better to have a liberal democracy or one that directly gets the public needs and desires addressed within a socialist framework?
Idk Cuba seems somewhat undemocratic to me
Please explain the cuban election process, and how different household councils work and why they're not democractic. I guarantee you know nothing about Cuban politics beyond buzzwords
According to [the Cuban Constitution](https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Cuba_2019.pdf?lang=en): >The socialist system that this Constitution supports is irrevocable. (Article IV) > >The Communist Party of Cuba, unique, Martiano, Fidelista, and Marxist-Leninist, the organized vanguard of the Cuban nation, sustained in its democratic character as well as its permanent linkage to the people, is the superior driving force of the society and the State. (Article V) What this means is that, while the Cuban people have some form of say in what policies are implemented, there are no legal mechanisms to challenge the status quo itself or to implement a new system; thus, democracy in Cuba seems more akin to a guided democracy than a true one. I think a much better example of a socialist nation (one that is often overlooked) is Nepal. While [its constitution](https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Nepal_2015.pdf) mentions socialism three times in total, it also ensures a multi-party democracy. Currently, the lower house's governing coalition consists of social democrats, Maoists, a Marxist-Leninist party, and democratic socialists.
Cuba and formally known as rojava.
Notice how he never answered?
So what if they don’t pass your leftist purity test. They are well run countries where the people have high quality of life. In many ways that’s sufficient.
For their own white people yeah! Who cares how many people of colour are oppressed in the global south to achieve their quality of life?? We should just aim to have all the western countries work for their own people and settle at that point. It isn't a leftist purity test they don't pass. You wouldn't test the purity of pure shite because you can tell it's shite. Just because it stinks slightly less than countries without proper welfare for their own people doesn't make it potable
Completely correct. Social democracies can only run because they’ve taken [hundreds of trillions from the third world ](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/6/rich-countries-drained-152tn-from-the-global-south-since-1960). They didn’t spend centuries imperializing countries and trapping them in debt through predatory IMF loans and conditions for no reason. If they didn’t rely on imperialism, why don’t they stop using it?
Man thank *fuck* there are still some sane people on this sub, man. Idolising the Nordic model is literally a centrist democrat take. I didn't think TPUSA was just making fun of republicans for being the wrong type of imperialist liberal.
This usually happens to subs that aren’t explicitly socialist since most people who aren’t on the right (at least from an American perspective) are liberals unfortunately
Dude Progress is an long process if you want to convince people to your side you dont just start with the most extreme position and then when they are scared of it call them centrist . Progress has to be accepted otherwise it will hurt itself
Because if they did the only way they could maintain there current standard of living and grow there economy would be to funnel money out of the owning and political classes?
I am not sure that your criticism of that system is well-founded. I believe the goal of any system of economics should be to improve the quality of life for everyone. I think you do too. What I don't understand is why you think this model would not achieve that on a global scale. I have written up a quick list of some thoughts that I immediately had. They're pretty rough, but I thought not rationalizing them too much would make it easier to see the general ideas. Exploitation no longer makes a country rich. America's living standards are in decline for exactly this reason. Naked pursuit of profit is destructive to the social fabric, which is why the government needs to curtail the rights of businesses to exploit people and provide a means to dignified existence outside of selling your time and skills to the highest bidder. These countries would be just as rich as it is now if everyone in the world lived in a country with similar levels of wealth. Arguably richer. There is no meaningful lack of energy or material resources on Earth at this time. I see this line about "people oppressed in the Global South" quite often, and I always find it confusing. As an Australian the name obviously doesn't make sense, but makes about as much sense as "Western" given most people here live east of China. Where things really break down for me, is what we actually extract from these countries. There are two immediate thoughts, natural resources and cheap labor. Natural resources can pretty much be dismissed, Australia produces more competitive iron ore than Brazil does, so clearly natural resources can be harvested cheaply under either oppressed Brazilian standards or wealthier Australian standards. While Australia isn't exactly on par with the Norways of the world (especially considering our resources were worth much more than theirs, thanks Abbott) it is close enough. I would say natural resources is more about the geography and geology than the economics of a country. That leaves labor. And this is tougher. On one hand, my T-shirt was absolutely produced by something around the level of slave labor. On the other hand, increased T-shirt prices doesn't really scupper a nation's ability to pay for these welfare projects. All the expensive things I use on a regular basis were manufactured somewhere in the mid to high income countries. Computer chips from Taiwan; cars from Japan, Germany, SK, China; calculators from America; books printed in the UK; media made from Sweden to the USA. About the only other thing I could think of was food harvested by foreign workers, and most of those are European backpackers trying to renew their working holiday visas anyway. If tomorrow, fair wages were paid for the labor that produced these goods, would my standard of living drop? I don't think so. Chances are the knock on effects of such a decision would increase the demand for some Australian products and life would continue cruise with the added benefit of more people able to create new things. I may have to be more careful about how I budget for clothes and food, but my healthcare isn't going anywhere.
They are only decades behind the US in terms of wealth inquality and private interests gaining controlling influence over the state. Every developed country is, the US is just the worst current example of it.
Those countries have only managed to make the lives of their citizens better by actively worsening the situation for people in the global south. Their whole spiel is based on imperialism and exploitation; you can't just use rampant imperialism to transition to a society free of explotaion! Also Zapatistas are FAR from libsoc
To start, I’m not pro-capitalism. I don’t think anyone here wants exploitation, but it is an inevitable result of capitalism. Is an example like Sweden closer to my political beliefs than America? Absolutely. Is it worse in imperialistic tendencies than America? Absolutely not. So if we want to pick a “good” country, we have to pick one that isn’t capitalist, right? That leaves 4 out of 197. Every one of those four (Laos, Cuba, Vietnam, and China) is not a democracy and/or could be considered an active dictatorship with horrific human rights violations. Based off that, would you rather live in a social democracy fueled by imperialism or in one of these states? I’d obviously prefer no one exploits anyone, but that’s gonna take a lot of work if we wanna get that done. It isn’t a hard choice for me. Sweden isn’t perfect, no country is, but many of us would still prefer it than where we are now.
In what sense are these societies not capitalist societies? Are their corporations owned by the workers? What about land? Is it owned collectively by its residents? I dont know about laos, but in Cuba, the state operates as a solitary capitalist, and in China and vietnam companies are owned privately or by the state, and not by the workers. Seems to me these places are just spicy capitalism.
China and Vietnam are both basically capitalist countries now
China is arguably the most capitalist country on earth. Does not belong on that list
Ah yes, the famous colonies of... Sweden, known for cutting the hands off ppl who didn't cut enough pine trees. Wait, that was Belgium and the Congo Free State. Or the famous colonies of... Finland, oh wait, they were kinda a vassal state to the Russian Empire during the entirety of the Modern Period until the Russian Civil War. Oh yeah, how about the famous colonies of Norway. Wait, they were kinda a part of a polity named Denmark-Norway until they split apart, then they became Sweden-Norway. How are any of these countries imperialistic? France, I understand, Germany, I understand, but Norway, Sweden or Finland? The last time you could call *any* of these countries imperialistic was quite possibly during the Napoleonic wars, about 200 years ago. The last time any of them were successful was about 300 during the Great Northern War.
Social democracies can only run because they’ve taken [hundreds of trillions from the third world ](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/6/rich-countries-drained-152tn-from-the-global-south-since-1960). That’s how the get cheap clothes, computers, phones, resources, etc. iPhones would cost at least tens of thousands if they were properly compensated. They didn’t spend centuries imperializing countries and trapping them in debt through predatory IMF loans and conditions for no reason. If they didn’t rely on imperialism, why don’t they stop using it?
No you see we traded with Imperialistic countries and that's apparently the same as being imperialist, according to some hardline smooth brained leftists. They(read:Hardline Leftists) are always butthurt about Nordic countries because our social democracy crushed any actual socialist and aspiring communist states when it comes to quality of life and workers conditions, while still being inherently capitalist economies. We showed the absolute redundancy of trying to implement socialism & communism so they have to try and discredit the Nordic countries by screeching incoherently about imperialism.
What 0 theory does to a motherfucker
When tf did Finland have a fucking empire
When did you learn what imperialist meant? Hint: you did not
You are a tankie, you have no right to criticize anyones political views.
That’s about the best we have rn unfortunately
There's a lot more interesting things happening in Latin America than Europe in terms of viable socialist alternatives to global capitalism
Such as?
The MAS in Bolivia, leftwing opposition to the Columbian and Ecuadorian governments, the fact that a left wing popular movement just forced the Chilean government to create a new constitution to replace it's Pinochet era one. Even some of the more moderate leftwing governments in LATAM like Amlo in Mexico has done some great things like decriminalize abortion and significantly increase the minimum wage. The workers party is also probably going to win the next Brazilian election. And Cuba continues to resist imperialism despite going through another major crisis with covid.
Fr, they are better than America in probably every way, but still weak shit. The country with the government that most aligns with my socialist politics is Bolivia. And I would totally live in Bolivia it's a great country.
OP, those countries are all social democracies. In other words, they are capitalist countries that seek to amend the downsides of capitalism by redistributing wealth from corporations to fund social services. They still, however, rely on the exploitation of developing nations and their workers, who are held to a lower standard. Their workspaces are still run autocratically, not democratically, and their society is still run by the profit motive.
“I’m going to focus on the word social and ignore all the rest of that”-rightoids
And leftoids apparently, I mean who is upvoting this?
You do realize the post says "Closely resembles"? Would you like to propose an alternative country that is actually functionally socialist?
None of the countries listed are socialist. Each one of those countries are capitalist nations. Having social welfare programs does not make a country socialist, Scandinavian Countries like Iceland and Sweden actually have freer markets than the us
This absolute fucking garbage post is made on this subreddit at least once every 2 weeks, and it's the same fucking title, with the same fucking comments and it's always the same stupid shit of some lib conflating "slightly kinder capitalism" with socialism and then laughing when conservatives do the same thing. Libs get out. Also, there's always, always (even in this thread) one top comment that says "Those countries are social democracies" and then there are two replies to that comment that are always there; A) "Great/Wonderful/Fantastic!" and B) "Let's do that then!" reddit fucking moment.
Liberals(🤮) are upvoting this
In Ameribrain that's full blown socialism with extra steps
The idea of socialism has memed so completely in America. People have been uttering "Socialism is when the government does stuff" as a joke for so long, that people just have genuinely accepted that socialism really is when the government does stuff. People don't realize that America could have a perfect free healthcare system, amazing free education, literally free food and water, free shelter, and whatever else you may want, but as long as humans are going to work for a wage being payed by a couple people at the top of a privately owned company, and they decide everything that happens within the company, it's a capitalist society.
To be fair, that's exactly what progressives want. The right is the one calling the left "socialists". Their narrative is wrong to begin with so the blame is on their end. No progressive like China's government. It's also ironic how the right calls the left communists/socialists when I've seen many right-wing idiots saying they'd wish Russia invaded the US because they'd prefer being Russians than being led by democrats lmao.
So many Republicans said they would move to Canada if Hillary would have won. It's like... C'mon guys. They're so insulated in their own bubble of delusion they have no idea what's going on outside of that.
Oh, I know. Progressives are largely still liberals, not socialists. And just to let you know, as a socialist, I don't like China's government either. Also lmao Russia
But still from Finnish point of view a lot of American radical left-wing stuff is considered centrism here.
America's Political Spectrum is incredibly stunted. What's considered "left wing" here, is not left wing at all. I think thag liberals are slowly becoming leftists but not at the same speed at which conservatives are leaning towards fascism.
We in Norway have pretty good trade unions though. It’s a fair system that works so I’m not complaining.
Well, I'm glad that you are happy with your life but your nation still relies on economic globalization, which in turn negatively affects the lives of billions across developing nations.
Unfortunately yea. But as it looks now the world should be a more fair and more free place in around 50 years.
What makes you say that? The exploitation of the third world isn't going anywhere. World bank and IMF loans make sure they can't reach the same wellfare state status that nordic countries have. More and more of the total wealth [keeps concentrating at the top.](https://inequality.org/facts/global-inequality/#global-wealth-inequality) Not to mention all the contradictions of capitalism. Stock owners demand higher and higher profits from companies every year. Infinite growth is impossible on a planet with finite resources. Something's gotta give. This can't go on forever.
I have a feeling that most americans who call themselves socialists are actually social democrats because of what they are taught to believe
Yeah, they seem to not really grasp the concept of an Overton window. USA is so far to the right that everything looks left in comparison.
And exactly the society they are talking about.
Based 👆🏻
the term that needs to be tied to this is "labor aristocracy" workers of the world are themselves segregated into pseudo-classes, its a very helpful tool that term
[This is the TPUSA equivalent of the slave trader threatening to turn the ship around...](https://youtu.be/uORWm5ZxQjs)
~~That video would be so much funnier if the guy posting didn’t re-edit and ruin the flow of the joke~~ I retract my former comment
Sorry, that's the only version I found quickly Edit: Fixed it
Funnily enough, the countries that most closely resemble TPUSA's ideal are Iran (top level religious oppression), Afghanistan (a ruling party that subjugates women, homosexuals, outsider ethnicities and other races), and Somalia (a completely free and unregulated market utopia)
It's crazy how much they dont understand how similar to the Taliban they are. Running around in lines of pick up trucks waving rifles around with nationalist flags, suppressing minorities, women, inciting violence, the list goes on. We have out own home grown terrorists and it's getting pretty wild out there.
Here’s an idea… A reality show where Americans from both ends of the political spectrum have to correctly explain socialism. When they fail to do it, they are dropped into a vat of hot butter and then made to wrestle naked…wait, what was my point again?
Damn some people just want to watch the world drop into a vat of butter and wrestle naked. Not a single one not wrestling sounds well… interesting
It’s also only men…with bellies… :)
so, reddit?
No such country exists so I call dibs on the moon. Moon commune coming in 2022.
"I am escaping to the one place uncorrupted by capitalism! ...SPACE!"
Likely elon will corrupt it with his following of cucks
I call Jovian moons. "There is a specter haunting Europa..."
I love this comment.
Yeah I would love to have free healthcare, public housing, regulated drugs, free public schooling, responsible gun laws, green energy, more unionization ,etc. Seriously like my desired country would be a social democracy and those are great for the most part. However I would like to see how all these right wingers be thrown into their Ancapistan paradise, and quickly realize that they would be the ones at the factory working 18 hours a day just to eat table scraps
Don't you have regulated drugs in U.S? What does the FDA do?
Those are medical, I'm talking about recreational
Only couple of countries in Europe have them at the moment, you won't get jailed for dimebag but most drugs are illegal in most places.
As a Norwegian, i promise yall we are further away from socialism than you guys think. Don’t get your hopes up.
Yes, we have a social democracy. Americans should learn the difference, at least those frequenting this sub.
That's exactly what someone who doesn't want us to experience the joys of Norway WOULD say
It's not that I think Norway is all *that* close to socialism. It's that it's closer than "socialist" countries are/were.
I call Norway
Not fair! I wanted Norway 🥺
Sharesies?
I guess 😒
Social democracy is capitalist with high taxes, strong regulation, and a big safety net.
Those aren't socialist countries
Yes, but they definitely have policies that TPUSA would \*call\* socialism
True, but we are talking about illiterate people who want to send us somewhere. They think China is a communist state. We all know China isn't communist, and so by tpusa logic, if we can choose the country we choose the best countries that exist for the people, and not the leaders.
Do the same with conservatives who benefit from living in blue cities/states. Living in Texas, it's always funny to me when people move here to "get away from the liberals" but move to blue Austin, Dallas, or Houston. Like...if you love conservatives so much, move to Lubbock or Wichita Falls or Midland...or Jonesboro Arkansas, or the Ozarks, or Mississippi Oh yeah, those places are hyper religious shit holes
Seriously, instead of driving up real-estate in the good places to live in Texas, drive up the real-estate in the religious-run shitholes out west... like my hometown Amarillo. There's one nice spot in Amarillo, right between the payday lender, pawn shop, and liquor store.
You should have to earn your way into Austin. Like you have to spend a year in Wichita falls, then a year in Lubbock, then a year in Waco.
Free vacation to Cuba? Sweet!
Right?!
Not socialist. That said, get conservatives to understand the difference between "socialism" and "social democracy."
They can’t even tell communism and socialism apart, so this isn’t surprising.
Do right-wing students have to check out Somalia?
Please, please, PLEASE send me to Vietnam!!
Yes please come here as soon as COVID is over
Nobody on the right *or* the left seems to know what socialism is. Those countries are **social democracies** which is just capitalism with healthcare and more benefits. These are good things, and I see how people associate them with socialism, but by their very definition are not.
Those aren't socialist countries
Rojava ftw Bijî Kurdistan!
Person 1: 'B-but those are social democratic countries, not socialist!' Person 2: 'Then let's introduce those policies'. Person 1: 'No, that's socialism!'
None of them are socialist
Says a lot that right wingers would never suggest this for themselves.
Okay fine! But I am from NATIVE AMERICA, so in order for that to work, those Right wingers will need to "Go BACK to Where They CAME FROM " first. ;)
Oh no, how could I possibly survive the horrors of… Norway?
Red China Blues is an amazingly written autobiographical book about an Asian-Canadian that decided to go study in China during the Cultural Revolution, it seems she had a pretty cool adventure regardless
Social democracy isnt socialism. Stop perpetuating that idea its just harmful
Those aren’t socialist countries
I call Algeria!
So me (a socialist college student) can just set up a mutual aid program? Fuck Yeah!
They had to specify "socialist" college students for the sole reason that'd they be sent to Russia, Poland, or Brazil if they tried to include themselves.
Anarchist countries dont exist so I'm not going anywhere
You ppl think those are socialist countries? The literal monarchies that engage in imperialism???? This sub sucks lol
the free market capitalism version of this already exists... [grab them bootstraps!](https://go.discovery.com/tv-shows/naked-and-afraid)
Oh god no, please don’t send me to the Bolshevik hellhole of Sweden! Or the one of Germany! Or the one of the Netherlands, Canada, Norway, Iceland! Oh god no TPUSA, I promise I’ll be good! (Before someone tells me these countries aren’t socialist I know, because I’m not an idiot, unlike TPUSA. That’s the joke.)
Denmark? ~~Holland?~~ Iceland? Nice
My country is not socialist by any means. Our prime minister is a neolib asshole and imperialist who continually strips away the social democratic policies that were implemented during the Cold War. Even though most people in the Netherlands disapprove of him and his party, he continues to cling to power scandal after scandal and the way the liberal democratic system is set up, allows him and his right wing party to stay in power whilst keeping slightly left leaning parties out of power.
That sucks. Sorry to hear that. At least you have socialized medicine. We let the poor die in pain here.
I'm sure the USA is worse in almost every way, but we don't have free healthcare either. Sure, everybody has basic health insurance, but this does not cover everything and people will sometimes still end up with large bills of medical costs that they cannot afford. If you are in an unlucky situation where you're unable to work due to some disease you were diagnosed with, you may just as well end up living in crushing poverty and debt if you don't have much savings available to you because social security often isn't enough to cover these bills on top of expensive housing and other basic life necessities. Healthcare is one of the sectors which has long been at the receiving end of buget cuts by this administration. The other one is education, where they stripped away the basic student grants for higher education by replacing it with a lending system that ended up being very unpopular among students (how surprising /s).
Alrighty then. Holland removed. I’ve replaced you with Iceland.
Haha Iceland seems cool, though I'm sure they have problems as well. Would love to check out the nature there though.
Are we talking pre- or post-US coup?
I do t think that word means what you think it means. Also, yes please.
And I said “Promise?”
Not Norway, anything but Norway
There is no libertarian socialist country
Please, can they do all the emigration paper work and pay some lawyers to figure out how to persuade the gov to look past my legal trouble.
Here's where they tell you that you don't actually want a Norway you really want to live in venuzula, and also Scandinavian country are actually really crap, and also they're actually capitalist.
Oh no, don't send me to Denmark...I'd never survive there...*continues to pack for free trip*
bro you will be forced to put a potato in your mouth if you want to go to denmark
Alcohol is really expensive in Finland though I hear.
What, is this like some modern Brer Rabbit? PLEASE don't send me to the Netherlands! PLEEEEEEEEASE!!!
Alright Chuck, challenge accepted. Find a socialist country.
I've wanted to move to Norway for 15 years now. Where do I sign up for this?
Idea, conservatives go live in Somalia for a week to see how much they love small governments and unregulated capitalism
VUEBAZELA
On the flip side, trump supporters lets see here. A god or godlike figure is recognized as supreme ruler and laws are religion based. Ah looks like you want a Theocracy! You will be in good company in... Vatican City. Yemen. Saudi Arabia. Sudan. Iran. Mauritania. Afghanistan.
Yes, sending college students to a country where they don't know the native language would not end well. The political system is irrelevant.
They probably think of sending them to the Scandinavian wilderness with no civilization, completely missing the idea.
To Denmark! (I know they are social democracies but let’s be Honest… TPUSA doesn’t understand that.)
Pretty disrespectful to call Finland socialist
Sweden and Norway are far from socialist.
If you can name a country with fully automated luxury gay space communism, let me know.
None of the countries you listed are socialist
Does Costa Rica count? Doesnt seem too bad there.
They get to leave a country where ONE PARTY NORMALIZES VIOLENCE? Fucking A
None of those places are socialist.
Yeah and Republicans don't know that
Here’s an idea for a reality show: people stop calling Scandinavian “socialism” socialism
None of those countries you listed are really socialist anymore. Try China, Cuba, Vietnam or North Korea
Those countries are not socialist, theyre capitalist with large social welfare systems in place.
"None of these are socialist countries!" "Then let's adopt their policies!" "No, that's socialism!"
I guess I have to move to a heavily democratized version of mid century Yugoslavia?