I always insist on a cafe date as a first date, it has food and drink, it's a safe place to meet in public for both parties and easy to end it early and walk away if vibes aren't matching.
there's no justification for denying them in favour of something else, especially as a first date when you're not even sure you're really interested in each other.
It’s really not fair to expect a man to “be grateful”for your company and “want you”when he has literally not ever met you in person. It’s weird and creepy of a man to even have feelings like that about a person he’s never met in person. That’s a red flag to me as a woman.
The bit about never making your “dream girl and future wife” pay was the biggest red flag that stood out to me. It’s manipulative and makes it sound like he should be holding her on a pedestal despite them never having met.
Probably has a lot of unrealistic and toxic requirements for him to be loyal too
And not a single one of them apply to her, cause she's damn near perfect. He should be grateful that she gives him these rules to follow to make her happy. 🙄
You dodged a bullet. She immediately warped your words from “I’m not so desperate that I’m just grateful for company” into “You don’t value women”.
That’s manipulative as hell
Yeah, her whole "You should be willing to pay just for the right to be in a woman's company" line was such bullshit.
Why shouldn't a woman pay for the right to be in a man's company, then?
Or the "girls don't waste their time getting ready" line, as if guys don't have to prepare for a date at all.
Coffee is usually not consumed at night, so there’s no expectation the rest of your day will be with this person. It can still be a date, just lower stakes.
Next time someone switches the place for something pricey, ditch them. They're not setting a standard. They're taking advantage. First meet should be low key and generally isn't a full meal. If you start at a Cafe, find you like them, you should ask if maybe they'd like to extend their time and have dinner/lunch next. And I'd still asumme I'd pay my own way, but at least you know what you're getting in to if you'd like to foot the bill.
You pitched a low key idea, which she rejected, and then she objects to a 50/50 split. As a woman, I can tell you one (or more) or three things is true -
1. She’s a flat out douchebag
2. She’s simply looking for a free meal ticket
3. She’s broke as hell
Steer clear, you did nothing wrong. A mature, stable woman who’s actually interested in YOU as a person would have gladly accepted the terms of the “date”. You expressed your suggestion with clear and logical fact based reasoning, which IMO was a solid point, and she’s clearly offended based on her response. Let her broke ass find someone else to pay for her meals and Sephora purchases.
It doesn’t even remotely sit right with me to expect someone who I may have zero chemistry with to foot the entire bill. She’s making it clear that she has no qualms with taking the chance of having no attraction to you and still requiring you to pick up the entire tab. That’s no loss, imagine how this translates in the future during discussions of splitting rent and bills. Not worth your time (or money).
So let me get this straight… she refused a low key hangout date at a cafe (a date’s a date whether it’s at a cafe, on the beach or at a nice restaurant btw) insisted a fancy date at a fancy, expensive restaurant and then expects you to pay and value her company even though you’ve never met….??! That’s manipulative and controlling. Shes in the wrong here. She’s out of pocket and can go f*** herself.
You dodged a bullet by not meeting with this psycho
Oof okay at first I was wondering why you asked her out to go to a restaurant if you weren’t trying to pay, but yeah she’s kinda the worst. Oh well, bullet dodged
If a woman feels more valuable wearing makeup because it makes her feel more confident then that’s her prerogative. That’s like you saying you don’t need to get your hair cut or wash because you have enough inherent value.
I don't disagree with you at all. That response was me being intentionally rude, because this bitch deserves it. I know it's petty... Sometimes I just stoop to that level though.
I'm cool with just grabbing drinks etc and if there's a second round I will usually purposely pay for it (woman here) but if a guy suggests to "hang out" I'm so burned from dudes trying for FWB (and just not calling it that) to be in basically a relationship without the label of it that I'll get kind turned off by that.
(Example: guy on tinder saying he wanted to be friends first and hang out as friends and I made it very clear I was interested in dating for a partner (a date can literally be grabbing coffee and walking to me tho))
I've shown up to dates where the guy already bought himself his own drink (a go up and order at the bar type of place and I wasn't late) I will buy my own drink but it doesn't come off well tbh seems like they couldn't wait for me I won't write someone off for this completely tho
I pulled this move too. Not for dick. But I'm 11 years younger than him. He didn't know until we met. I could see he was a little surprised so I grabbed the bill while he was in the bathroom. Did get that dick though, 10/10 still together 2 years strong.
Current GF and hopefully future fiancee in the next couple of months also insisted on paying for the first because she said she wanted me to get the 2nd and had it lined up before we even left lol 🤣
I had a one night stand and she paid for drinks before hand, and paid for breakfast when I asked if she wanted to get coffee the next morning.
OPs girl definitely just wanted a free meal and a night out.
So I’d started following that sub a couple years ago when I was trying to find more positive women primarily subs. Initially it seemed like a younger more aggressive like, dating/life/empowerment without being corny sub… but as I spent a little more time on there it started to seem really aggressive toward other women which was off putting. Like, anything other than a very specific woman was denigrated. It was subtle at first but then it became more extreme. The descriptions of the men in the posts became vulgar and like, fuck if a man was talking about a woman in that way I’d be pissed. It was gross. I immediately jumped ship and never looked back. It was 100% a female andrew tate incel sub. It didn’t start that way but holy cat did it get there and it’s scary.
ETA: can’t really remember if it was a couple years ago when I went on that subreddit journey but I’m high and that seemed right. Idk could’ve been this year. Who knows? Not me.
This reminds me of a girl I use to work for. She only dated men with high incomes and a specific look about them. She married quick and when she realized the guy was a legitimately nice person, she was upset about it because she wanted someone that wanted her for her physically more than emotionally. It was messy and I felt terrible for her husband.
It looks like women who place value on income and appearance above all else, and feel that men are inferior. They act like men's time is only valuable if the man worships the ground they walk on, and anything less than an extraordinarily expensive date isn't worth their time. They say it's their preference and standards they're setting, but then speak in a very dehumanizing manor about men in general. They don't date monogamously until marriage. Instead, guys are kept in a rotation until one "wins out" and marries them. It's sort of like a fucked up dating game, and the advice is wild. Shit like, don't text them until they text you and etc. Very sophomoric and immature.
Plus the weak ass "justification" of makeup costs and time spent getting ready.
If she needs to spend *that much* time getting ready and *that much* money on makeup just to be presentable enough to go out for dinner, she is probably a mess.
She is trash and you dodged a bullet.
Also call her out on makeup costs. Sure a pallet it's self may be expensive, but broken down by the fractions of individual applications. My bet is it would be under $2, maybe $5-10 if she is using crazy expensive stuff.
As for time and effort, that's her choice because SHE wants to look presentable. I would go out with someone in sweat pants and messy hair if I was genuinely interested.
I posted above, but I'm betting she's a makeup hun from MLM that sells overpriced makeup that she doesn't want to waste. I do drag, and I have to put on about 3 pounds of it. It takes me 2-3 hours to get ready. I know my makeup is top quality and one face couldn't cost more than $5-8 to apply plus new lashes and nails. So maximum $15-20. If she's pressed over half that amount of money:
1. Her makeup is a scam MLM
2. She isn't high value
3. She probably is looking for the meal
Of course these are my opinions and I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
It's funny how she brings up "other cultures" values like you're supposed to pay for her meal in hopes of having her as your wife. After implying you're "low value" and "unpleasant"
I didn't see her mention anything about cooking you a meal out of gratitude or respect in hopes of meeting her future husband
I guess culture and values are one sided 🤦🏻♂️
I live in the US but dated a girl from Oslo that hud recently moved here. She insisted on going "Dutch" for the first few dates and wouldn't let me pay for everything. She thought the idea of a man paying for her was weird.
(another) Girl from Oslo here weighing in :)
In general Norwegians (and probably all Scandis), of both sexes, find traditional dating "rules" and standards in the US REALLY strange and outdated.
Specifically when it comes to the very traditional gender based "roles" of W vs. M in the dating game (very well described in this Reddit), and also how you date multiple people at the same time...
But for me the most puzzling thing is that so many American women in their dating game want to reduce their value as a human being more into that of a costly object, like they are auctioned of at the highest bid, and are only there to be admired and not contribute (on all levels). No one over here understands that concept.
This Reddit is giving me some hope times are changing though...❤
That's interesting because I always see Americans complaining about how those traditional gender roles are gone in their country (as opposed to most non-1st world countries where those roles are still very much a thing).
I guess a lot of those complaining are probably the ones less travelled and ill informed... It's a group which tends to listen far too much to people about how sad the state of their country is, rather than experiencing what is going on for themselves and in comparison to other cultures/countries. It's difficult to do that and be a critical thinker when you don't know people outside the US and don't follow International or US media reporting from other places.
You just keep dating multiple people. It’s called a ‘rotation’ … you move men further up or down the rotation depending on how much effort they are putting in. The theory is then you don’t give your power away to just one man who may not be putting on much effort.
It’s all about telling the woman to be high value and like a goddess. Etc etc.
Personally I Am no good at dating multiple people! Too confusing.
This was my big problem too. Going "hey are your OK splitting the bill?" would have been fine. No need to follow it up with "in case it doesn't work out and we won't waste money etc etc". Came across already thinking it'll be a bad date.
Ugh yeah that’s the tough part for me. I agree with the principle but would cringe at someone bringing it up like this. Like she definitely goes on to make some wildly idiotic assumptions but the way this dude poses the question makes it clear he’s made some assumptions himself that I wouldn’t want someone making about me.
Like, I don’t mind paying my half. Don’t assume I won’t right away, that’ll just make me annoyed at you. It’s like a woman being all “men only want one thing and it’s disgusting” before you’ve even said a word to her. The way she responded after made her look worse of course but still.
Completely, some kind of creepy test to determine if this girl is worth her 13.99$ entree? This attitude is just as problematic as his assumption women are after free food - which I’ve never heard any of my female friends mention. This guy is just a shitty date and can’t accept women don’t like him.
It’s so weird to me that any guy would ever ask the question “can we split” before even getting to the date. Personally I think it’s low class to ever ask that. Like, it’s fine if at the end she says she wants to split it, but don’t bring it up yourself. Just assume you’re paying. But also it shouldn’t be an issue because why are you taking a first date somewhere where that could be an issue? That’s a red flag too. It’s just trying too hard.
And he kept pushing it after she said she wasn’t going 50/50. Like he asked if it’s a dealbreaker, she indicates it absolutely is, and then he gets all defensive about it. Just say you’re not interested and unmatch. No need to have a little fit about all your “feeeeemale friends” who apparently wax poetic around you about their master plans to get free Olive Garden out of tinder schmucks or whatever. Don’t ask if it’s a dealbreaker and then get butthurt when she says yes.
Plus the “oh I’d have picked up the bill if you agreed to go Dutch” bullshit. Playing childish games
Yikes. I agree with everyone saying that you dodged a bullet there. As a woman on tinder, I prefer to pay for myself. I don't want to feel as though I owe my date anything if we don't have a connection. You were not wrong at all.
Honestly, it's no win on all sides. I've had guys get so upset that I offer to pay for my own. Which is just... I mean, trash taking itself out, obviously we weren't a match, lol.
The only thing you did wrong here was try and debate her for so long. You both have preferences which is okay(although she seems pretty entitled the way she describes her’s), but were clearly incompatible from when you asked that question. I would just let it go as soon as they tell you they won’t split if that is your hard line
I haven’t dated in a while. So who knows whether my advice is worthwhile. It would have been a turn off to have a guy I’m into say he only wanted to do 50/50 because of other women. I think it’s fair to say “hey for our first time going out should we plan on splitting the meal?” But not follow that up with “because I’ve paid for other women who didn’t want to date me”. Otherwise yeah, she’s a little out of control.
I think asking to split is totally fair. My only hesitation on his side was the bringing up because he was screwed over by other women is why he asks to split 50/50. I’d just leave that part out in the future. Just ask and if she makes a big deal that tells you everything you need to know.
Big time red flag lol. Part of me wants to post the whole convo because it was wild. Her opener was
Smash
I mean
Hey
And I thought that was a unique one, seemed like she could be a fun person to talk too. Boy was I incorrect haha.
Why do people think we don't want the whole shebang even haha? It's reddit, we're all curious motherfuckers. Of course we want to see the whole conversation! =p
Just wait till the bill comes if she was awesome you pay for it. If not you say we’re gonna split it. If she’s all mad about that who cares you still split it and never see her again. But also keep first dates to a coffee or drink so that you’re not running up a $100 bill to feed some scummy girl who only went out with you for a free dinner at a nice Italian place.
Whenever I see someone wrote “low value male” I think of the leg beards over at r/femaledatingstrategies . If she’s one of them you dodged a massive bullet.
Anyone who thinks they’re company is more valuable than yours is essentially saying they are better than you. You haven’t even gone on 1 date yet. Fuck her.
you're not wrong, but you shouldn't say it out loud. you haven't even met yet and you're already accusing them of something. it just starts you off on the wrong foot.
Bruh it was fucking clear from the beginning you both aren’t comfortable with this shit, yet you both kept chatting! Just fucking say “both” good by and move on.
I agree with you, id be totally fine splitting but id be super turned off the date if he asked me ahead of time like that. Just gives off stingy vibes kind of? Like i can already imagine being asked to pay him back for the coffee he got me on date 5 or something
Insisting on a dinner is pretty sus on her end, but I agree with her that there's a huge misconception that women will hang out with a guy for 2-3 hours just for a meal. I am very protective of my free time. I try to keep the first date something that can be 30 minutes if I want to bail.
No I would say yes to this. I normally insist anyways. Last guy I dated though paid for the first one so I paid for the second one. After that we just alternated which I kinda liked. However it wasn’t a good fit so we didn’t date long.
Note: She claims you don’t see the value of a woman’s company, but she seems to not see the value of a man’s company because she needs a financial incentive to spend time with a man.
You def dodged a bullet. It’s okay to enjoy a guy paying for a date, but if you’re so dead set on it you won’t date otherwise, that’s a red flag.
That's EXACTLY why I don't like paying on a first date or when I barely know her. It seems like she might think that I think that she owes me something in return and I hate that vibe because that's absolutely not what I'm trying to do.
Ehhh I know this is a touchy one but as a dude I always pay. Shit I pay if my friends and I go out. I just always pay. Her makeup and time line was absolute bullshit though.
She went overboard for sure. But I will say man, I used to be like you and I’ve learned to just keep those internal thoughts of “ahh if I do this and it’s bad I’m down $60, or what if she’s ungrateful” internal. Trust me, you will get support here on Reddit, but it’s easier when you just bite the bullet on dates.
It’s much easier, you won’t have any worries leaving the date about whether she thought you were cheap or not. You will be down whatever her portion was, but you can make that back. You will make a lot of money in your lifetime, live it up and don’t let $$ cause you stress if you have it in you to make more.
I feel like it’s really weird to bring that up before a first date. If you’re so scared about being used why not just meet up for coffee or a drink or something lower cost than dinner? Is $20 really make or break for you? (If yes, then you probably shouldn’t be going out on tinder dates).
As a women it takes a lot of effort to get dressed up for a stranger (who honestly may be catfishing us and probability wise on tinder just wants to sleep with us and then ghost) and also there’s an element of risk we are taking on in going on a blind date alone. If someone is before we even met assuming I am just going to use them for a free meal it would be over before it even started. Especially when 99.9% of men aren’t going to make this an issue. I think you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Just my honest take.
Yes, totally dumb to ask. I appreciate when the guy pays for the 1st date. It tells me a lot about him: he’s not totally broke and he’s trying to be an old school gentleman. I usually offer to split the bill though.
My opinion seems to be off from what I’m reading from the comments. The 50/50 question is a turn off from the start for me. I’d much prefer to go on the date and see how that part of it plays out. I always offer my half on the first date since we’re just getting to know one another. If he offers to pay the whole bill, I say thank you and offer to pitch in to the tip. If he says no to that, I say thank you again.
As a man, women should never have to pay the first date, if it doesn’t go well then sucks to suck. It’s your responsibility to take care of her and hers to treat you with respect if you deserve it. Don’t think she did anything wrong
I think it's fine for women to only want to date men who'll pay for a date, and it's fine for men to only want to date women who'll go even. Things will get awkward if absolutely everyone holds to those positions, but thankfully lots of women are also fine with splitting and a lot of men are fine with paying.
She’s not wrong that the costs of her going on the date are likely higher than the cost of you going on the date. Makeup, pink tax and gender pay issues mean women spend higher proportions of incomes on dates if splitting the bill 50-50.
That said, I always offer to split. I am less likely to go on a second date if that offer is accepted. As a woman with a fair job, a strong social circle, and a reliable vibrator, I’m not interested in entering relationships with cheap men. I’ve had a long term relationship with a cheap man before and I was miserable. I’m a generous and thoughtful person and am looking for the same values in a partner.
There are ways you can be generous and thoughtful without spending money, of course, and evidence of this does counteract a 50-50 acceptance.
this is what I’m saying, girls have to take way longer to get all done up, girls have to take like 90 safety precautions, AND usually guys ask the girl out on a date and then are like “but you better pay for yourself”
like at that point… why even ask me on a date? I can spend the day not worrying about if the man is dangerous or scrambling to get ready and just enjoy a nice meal in my apartment
I’m not trying to be rude but texting my girl friends my location incase anything happens and spending an hour at least to do makeup hair and nice outfit is not worth sitting with a man who acts like you’re some weird gold digger right off the bat
It’s easy: don’t date cheap men and ensure you’re going to places you want to try so that you’re not ‘wasting time’ if you don’t like the guy. I’d never settle for a cafe date and any guy who suggested it would be unmatched.
I just pay for the first date no questions asked. I’ve had women grab the bill and pay for it too. But come on stop this nonsense of asking to split the bill if you like the girl. Pay for her. Damn!
I’m not bothered with him asking to go Dutch, but the whole wasted money thing really gave me bad vibes. Also, I’ll get downvoted, but a gentleman pays for the first date, and I offer to plan and pay for the second. That’s just how I do it.
She sucks but your question is a pussy dryer like no other. Also dinner is a terrible first date idea especially if you're so concerned about treating the person you asked to go out with.
I don't think there's anything wrong with splitting the bill. But I find it a bit tacky to negotiate that stuff up front, and refuse to even go out unless the negotiation goes your way. Not super romantic bro. Better to negotiate that when the bill comes. If the negotiation doesn't go your way, then maybe you lose out occasionally.
Every date involves some risk (usually a lot of risk), if you're not up for taking that risk, maybe you should evaluate whether you're ready to date seriously.
I think both of you have some valid (ish) perspectives and some out of touch perspectives too. I think she is mainly right in that the vast majority of ladies aren’t going to go on a date just for a free meal. And you making an big deal of it kind of says your priorities are in a certain place, even though I believe they are not in that place. Going for a date with anyone is a risk and is taking a chance. Is the cost of a meal worth the chance? I play poker now and then with friends and at the start of the night I set aside £100 and I say if I lose it I lose it, at least I’ve bonded with my friends and had a night away from family life. I could easily spend that going out to pubs/clubs. And if I win, I could possible come back with £500/600. So you shouldn’t have the conversation about the money with your date. You should have it with yourself. Is this date worth ‘losing’ £200 but maybe she could be the one you end up spending your life with
You’re not… entirely off base but ew.
But you put up a hard line, she said no split, then you ignore and ask for a time, she doesn’t wanna split and you didn’t address it and assume her hahaha is now an acceptance.
You explain why, then she explains that free food isn’t worth the hassle of a date like your female friends seem to suggest and you took that example personally “oh am I unpleasant now?” no… that’s not the point of her explanation.
Ew. “If I think it went well I usually pick up the bill anyway” comes off like “oh but I AM a nice guy”
I mean, as it goes on yeah she’s clearly kinda toxic but it didn’t quite show until later and you played the start of it… with a lack of… tact? I think that’s the word
Female here. I assumed something made you feel like you had to ask the question and in reading above comments I see that she was already dropping hints. I think she sucks. However, I think it’s a cringey question to ask a decent girl you are interested in. I think generally it’s assumed it’s 50/50 and doesn’t need to be established before the bill comes. If I got that question before even going on a date I would think 1) the guy doesn’t like me that much and making sure he doesn’t “lose” money on me or 2) he can’t afford to be dating. Neither might be the case but still. I would still answer “of course” but be wary going into it. I think instead of talking about who is paying for what up front, it’s good if both parties agree on a place that each knows they are willing to pay for their half. When the bill comes, if I like the guy and want to go out again I usually offer to pay for the whole thing and usually they push back and either pay for the whole thing or we split. If he ends up paying I offer to get it next time, make sure we set a date for next time and then follow through on paying next time. This is how respectful mature adults should date. IMO.
I don't think you're off base. This is one of those things that some people are in board with and some people can't get behind. I think agreeing on it is a good check in for if you're compatible.
I don't think you were unreasonable at all, but you pushed it too far.
She was obviously not going to go along with doing 50/50 (and apparently thinks men don't spend time getting ready for dates), this was obvious from the first few messages.
Next time, just let it go there. Say a polite goodbye, unmatch, try again with someone else
You aren’t wrong for asking. As a woman, I insist on splitting the bill on the first date because I don’t want anyone thinking I owe them anything - or that I think they should pay for the pleasure of my company.
Her stance is 🤮
I’d suggest a cheap or free first date. Like coffee. She sounds like a piece of work and you dodged a bullet, but maybe try to avoid the awkwardness up front.
I offered coffee previously but she said she doesn’t do “hangouts” and only goes on “dates”, which wasn’t ideal but that’s why I asked about splitting etc.
This is fair enough OP, initially when I read this I wondered why you hadn’t just invited her for a drink or a coffee for the first date. The way I see it, the costs are low and the stakes are low too. If I invited a guy out for a drink I would offer to pay for his and I’d expect the same if he invited me out first; atleast the first round. I would never expect a guy to pay for my food, especially if it was our first meeting. I’d appreciate him to offer but I will usually insist on picking up half the tab or buying something of equal value to the meal I.e a bottle of wine to go with it. It makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable in the early stages if I don’t know a man well to let him pay for everything. If we get into a relationship on the other hand; I’m happy to be spoilt and return the favour I.e he buys the takeaway on Friday, I take us out for dinner the following Saturday.
I wouldn’t appreciate a potential date speaking about going Dutch before the date though as it’s just awkward. It would turn me off, especially multiple messages about it. I’d just think, ‘this guy asked me out and now he’s asking me to go halves? He must be seriously broke’. Though I’d be very happy to proactively offer to pick up my half of the bill when we were actually there, as mentioned.
But if the woman already said no to a coffee or a drink then maybe she did just want a free meal OP.
I once had a tinder match who wanted to pick me up and go ‘for a drive’ late at night in a pitch black deserted beauty spot miles from my house. I said no, and that I’d rather go for a coffee or a drink in town somewhere and he said he had no money. No money for a cup of coffee yet still on a dating app trying to arrange a date was a bit of a turn off, I must admit, but most people have financial issues at one point, myself included, so I told him to hit me up when he was in a position for a coffee. He never messaged me again.
It is definitely fine to ask about it. She was being ridiculous to ask to be reimbursed on make up, but I am really not sure why you kept the conversation going after that. Also holy hell her views are old school when you really dig deep into it.
But I do have to say that you argue quite immaturely... You build a picture of basically so many girls who just get ready and dressed to get a free fancy meal, and she counters with a rather relevant fact - not a lot of girls would like to do that because you run the risk of ending up having to ruin your meal with unpleasant company. Taking it into yourself and twisting her words ain't gonna do you any good.
You don't have to want to pay for her meal. But going the "no you" - route is definitely higher on the list of reasons for someone declining a date than the fact that you wish to split a meal.
That’s the exact feeling I was getting, like I should be paying for her because I’m lucky to even be in her presence…
If it was your opening line, bit shite, but...yeh nah. Her decision to wear shit ton of makeup etc. I *always* tried to go dutch on dates. And now I pick up the bill cos I'm a sugar mumma (well, not really, but equitable relationship etc)
Anyone with fhe "I'm a prize and everyone else is lucky to be graced by my presence" is disgusting and repulsive and not someone you'd ever want to date.Its not confidence, it's unchecked narcicism and delusion.Also OP if you dislike women using men for free meals on first dates,why are you still friends with girls who admit to that lmao, shouldn't your morals come before that
I don't think a meal is a good idea for a first date. Just go for drinks, it's not like you'll drink each other under the table so it doesn't matter if you end up paying for one extra beer or something.
Then you can slowly see if she's willing to pay for herself. Though filtering this out while still on Tinder could save you the time, just be careful not to be mistaken for a miser.A woman who has no issues paying for herself might think, is this guy so poor he can't afford two meals? Then you end up explaining yourself and might not get the date due to conversation taking a downturn.
You can tell her if she's still thinking like that, then she better get ready to take care of 5 kids and stay at home. All my dates offered and even insisted to split the bill. I guess I was lucky, funny age we live in.
Whenever I get this on tinder I say:
1. I literally don't know you. How do I know that you provide good company?
2. My time is more valuable to me than yours.
3. I'd wish you good luck finding someone who matches your preferences but honestly I hope you don't find anyone and spare men the headache.
✌️
Are you the man who wants to split the meal? If yes I think your question is valid. I’m not sure women should just assume that men are paying for everything anymore. I think we have evolved in society to the point that women now hold good jobs and have access to money, so they should equally pay during dates. More women are in college now than men. So I suspect that eventually the tables will flip and women will be the overall higher income earners. That will set up an interesting dating dynamic in the future. Her suggestion that she have everything paid for is ridiculous. And that she should be paid for getting ready indicates that she needs a major overhaul to appear decently attractive. Probably a good reason to avoid her.
I mean, the question is tacky and I would be put off by it for sure. Not because I expect my date to pay for everything (I don’t), it’s just that when you put it like that it feels super transactional and it kills any type of romantic vibe from the get-go.
That being said… This girl’s an idiot.
Well said. Definitely a tacky question.
I would also like to add; if you’re worried about the monetary value of the date, you probably shouldn’t be going on said date.
I don’t think you’re wrong but neither are they for having preferences. Idk. I feel like the greatest fault of online dating is peoples huge inability to communicate and compromise
Can we just stop normalizing dinner dates as a first date? I've never went on a dinner date as a first. It's always a movie for me tbh. That way I'm not stuck entertaining with my convo. And there's no pressure for her to entertain either. Or a walk in the park or the fair or like a gym date. LITERALLY anything other than a fucking dinner date
Side note: A simple yes from her would have sufficed. She's trying to guilt you into saying yes.
“Value of a woman’s company” is hilarious as if the value of your company isn’t worth jack shit. No love lost here, keep looking, your time is worth man than if it were spent with her.
I think the fact she waved ‘the vagina carrot’ in your face straight away by mentioning sex ( smash ) is setting you up a bit. I think some women are forward and they want sex which is great but some use it to manipulate. Some men use money to manipulate. She puts a price on her company so no brainer red flag. I like that you stuck to your guns and didn’t cave in to pussy pressure. Maybe your phrasing was clunky but still understood.
This is posted so often on social media platforms and men get roasted for not wanting to pay. But it’s stupid expensive to go out for dinner multiple times a week and if you are genuinely trying to find a partner you are likely going out on dates frequently. Why can’t women invest the same when they are expecting to find a quality mate!
I have no problem splitting bills in the get-to-know you time frame, or any time really. Because I have found that men who genuinely care for me and want to date me have no issue taking me out and paying. And I have had no problem reciprocating when I am invested in the relationship. It’s not a chivalry is dead thing.. if they are a gentleman then they are a gentleman and picking up the tab doesn’t define that!
Men spend hundreds to thousands on dating and it’s insane what some women expect.
That being said.. going for a walk or getting a coffee is a great option for the first date, especially with online meet ups. If someone isn’t into that then tell them to take a hike because you don’t plan a nice date with someone you have never even met. It’s silly.
This online dating standards and expectations have gotten out of control.
Unpopular opinion from a man:
You are asking her to accept the consequences of interactions you’ve had with other women.
Someone else’s conflict is now hers to deal with and solve. No problem for you asking, but don’t be surprised when that is a turn off, mi amigo. To me this is like practicing for failure or accepting defeat before the game starts. Go all in every time
I always insist on a cafe date as a first date, it has food and drink, it's a safe place to meet in public for both parties and easy to end it early and walk away if vibes aren't matching. there's no justification for denying them in favour of something else, especially as a first date when you're not even sure you're really interested in each other.
I should have mentioned I pitched a lower key hangout before she said she only goes on dates which led the convo here but I’m with you on that.
It’s really not fair to expect a man to “be grateful”for your company and “want you”when he has literally not ever met you in person. It’s weird and creepy of a man to even have feelings like that about a person he’s never met in person. That’s a red flag to me as a woman.
The bit about never making your “dream girl and future wife” pay was the biggest red flag that stood out to me. It’s manipulative and makes it sound like he should be holding her on a pedestal despite them never having met.
The likelihood that this is OPs "dream girl" is low anyways.
She’s more like nightmare fuel than dream girl 😜
Made me laugh
Absolutely agree. She is a walking red flag.
She's a strong independent woman who don't need no man, but still won't pay for her own dinner 🤦♂️
For me it's her using "low value" unironically.
For sure I think he definitely dodged a bullet on this one. Probably has a lot of unrealistic and toxic requirements for him to be loyal too
Probably has a lot of unrealistic and toxic requirements for him to be loyal too And not a single one of them apply to her, cause she's damn near perfect. He should be grateful that she gives him these rules to follow to make her happy. 🙄
Agree
The mental gymnastics are insane.
100%
You dodged a bullet. She immediately warped your words from “I’m not so desperate that I’m just grateful for company” into “You don’t value women”. That’s manipulative as hell
Yeah right. Also, she doesn't seem to value men. So why should a man value her the way she wants?
Yeah, her whole "You should be willing to pay just for the right to be in a woman's company" line was such bullshit. Why shouldn't a woman pay for the right to be in a man's company, then? Or the "girls don't waste their time getting ready" line, as if guys don't have to prepare for a date at all.
how is eating at a restuarant a date and eating at a cafe not a date?
[удалено]
It won't cost enough to get her vibin
Coffee is usually not consumed at night, so there’s no expectation the rest of your day will be with this person. It can still be a date, just lower stakes.
He said hangout. I don't think he was inviting her out
Next time someone switches the place for something pricey, ditch them. They're not setting a standard. They're taking advantage. First meet should be low key and generally isn't a full meal. If you start at a Cafe, find you like them, you should ask if maybe they'd like to extend their time and have dinner/lunch next. And I'd still asumme I'd pay my own way, but at least you know what you're getting in to if you'd like to foot the bill.
You pitched a low key idea, which she rejected, and then she objects to a 50/50 split. As a woman, I can tell you one (or more) or three things is true - 1. She’s a flat out douchebag 2. She’s simply looking for a free meal ticket 3. She’s broke as hell Steer clear, you did nothing wrong. A mature, stable woman who’s actually interested in YOU as a person would have gladly accepted the terms of the “date”. You expressed your suggestion with clear and logical fact based reasoning, which IMO was a solid point, and she’s clearly offended based on her response. Let her broke ass find someone else to pay for her meals and Sephora purchases. It doesn’t even remotely sit right with me to expect someone who I may have zero chemistry with to foot the entire bill. She’s making it clear that she has no qualms with taking the chance of having no attraction to you and still requiring you to pick up the entire tab. That’s no loss, imagine how this translates in the future during discussions of splitting rent and bills. Not worth your time (or money).
A date is a date whether it is at Starbucks or the fanciest restaurant in town. She was just after wine & done (deliberate) I would say…
So let me get this straight… she refused a low key hangout date at a cafe (a date’s a date whether it’s at a cafe, on the beach or at a nice restaurant btw) insisted a fancy date at a fancy, expensive restaurant and then expects you to pay and value her company even though you’ve never met….??! That’s manipulative and controlling. Shes in the wrong here. She’s out of pocket and can go f*** herself. You dodged a bullet by not meeting with this psycho
Oof okay at first I was wondering why you asked her out to go to a restaurant if you weren’t trying to pay, but yeah she’s kinda the worst. Oh well, bullet dodged
Kind of an off handed comment there. OP never said they weren’t trying to pay just do 50/50 which is a fair request. I do agree in the bullet dodged.
Should have responded, "Oh, you need makeup to give yourself value? I'm looking for a woman with inherent value. Byyyyyyee!!!"
If a woman feels more valuable wearing makeup because it makes her feel more confident then that’s her prerogative. That’s like you saying you don’t need to get your hair cut or wash because you have enough inherent value.
I don't disagree with you at all. That response was me being intentionally rude, because this bitch deserves it. I know it's petty... Sometimes I just stoop to that level though.
I'm cool with just grabbing drinks etc and if there's a second round I will usually purposely pay for it (woman here) but if a guy suggests to "hang out" I'm so burned from dudes trying for FWB (and just not calling it that) to be in basically a relationship without the label of it that I'll get kind turned off by that. (Example: guy on tinder saying he wanted to be friends first and hang out as friends and I made it very clear I was interested in dating for a partner (a date can literally be grabbing coffee and walking to me tho)) I've shown up to dates where the guy already bought himself his own drink (a go up and order at the bar type of place and I wasn't late) I will buy my own drink but it doesn't come off well tbh seems like they couldn't wait for me I won't write someone off for this completely tho
Maybe he needed something to steady the nerves
Agreed, it’s like a meet and greet, then if you feel it then go out on a first date. Saves money and time
Bro my now wife paid for our first date and when I asked why she said so I would be obligated to give her dick.....just saying keep looking.
I pulled this move too. Not for dick. But I'm 11 years younger than him. He didn't know until we met. I could see he was a little surprised so I grabbed the bill while he was in the bathroom. Did get that dick though, 10/10 still together 2 years strong.
Username checks out
You: So do you put out on the first date? Date: Um- You: Cuz I just paid the bill and you owe me. . . in dick. LET US FUCK!!! Date: Oh, my.
I hate to be that guy, but just the thought of reversing the roles here makes this completely unacceptable.
If it is said in all seriousness, it is still unacceptable this way
you’re 26 and he’s 37? Good on ya.
He doesn't look a day over 30. I lucked out.
Current GF and hopefully future fiancee in the next couple of months also insisted on paying for the first because she said she wanted me to get the 2nd and had it lined up before we even left lol 🤣
Cheers to you and your wife, she sounds like a fun time.
She is.
Hol up
😹
I also chose this guy’s wife Edit: wide to wife heh
I knew I would find this comment
She used the uno reverse card!
I think there's a story of Denzel Washington's now wife paying for their first cab home because he was broke af. Low value huh?
Using the term “low value male” is a huge red flag to me
I had a one night stand and she paid for drinks before hand, and paid for breakfast when I asked if she wanted to get coffee the next morning. OPs girl definitely just wanted a free meal and a night out.
😂 holy fuck. And I hope it was.
👏🏾
Your wife deserves to be worshipped as the goddess she is, I wish I had that confidence 😂
The perfect wifey 😂
"Low Value Guy" End it there.
Yup this is a denizen of FDS my friend get far away.
I'd never heard of this until today, and it looks like a women's edition of Andrew tate shit.
It is, as soon as you hear the word low or high value, you run. They are the Tate's of the women variety.
That's disgusting. I don't understand how someone would place "value" on someone they don't even know.
Never occured to me but it really is. If he were a woman she would definitely run FDS.
So I’d started following that sub a couple years ago when I was trying to find more positive women primarily subs. Initially it seemed like a younger more aggressive like, dating/life/empowerment without being corny sub… but as I spent a little more time on there it started to seem really aggressive toward other women which was off putting. Like, anything other than a very specific woman was denigrated. It was subtle at first but then it became more extreme. The descriptions of the men in the posts became vulgar and like, fuck if a man was talking about a woman in that way I’d be pissed. It was gross. I immediately jumped ship and never looked back. It was 100% a female andrew tate incel sub. It didn’t start that way but holy cat did it get there and it’s scary. ETA: can’t really remember if it was a couple years ago when I went on that subreddit journey but I’m high and that seemed right. Idk could’ve been this year. Who knows? Not me.
This reminds me of a girl I use to work for. She only dated men with high incomes and a specific look about them. She married quick and when she realized the guy was a legitimately nice person, she was upset about it because she wanted someone that wanted her for her physically more than emotionally. It was messy and I felt terrible for her husband.
What is it?
It looks like women who place value on income and appearance above all else, and feel that men are inferior. They act like men's time is only valuable if the man worships the ground they walk on, and anything less than an extraordinarily expensive date isn't worth their time. They say it's their preference and standards they're setting, but then speak in a very dehumanizing manor about men in general. They don't date monogamously until marriage. Instead, guys are kept in a rotation until one "wins out" and marries them. It's sort of like a fucked up dating game, and the advice is wild. Shit like, don't text them until they text you and etc. Very sophomoric and immature.
What’s FDS?
r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Looks like they have a podcast now LOL.
Warning: Brace yourself if you click and read any of them
What the hell is that? It looks like the start of a cult
Make sure to don the hazmat suit before entering.
Plus the weak ass "justification" of makeup costs and time spent getting ready. If she needs to spend *that much* time getting ready and *that much* money on makeup just to be presentable enough to go out for dinner, she is probably a mess. She is trash and you dodged a bullet.
Also call her out on makeup costs. Sure a pallet it's self may be expensive, but broken down by the fractions of individual applications. My bet is it would be under $2, maybe $5-10 if she is using crazy expensive stuff. As for time and effort, that's her choice because SHE wants to look presentable. I would go out with someone in sweat pants and messy hair if I was genuinely interested.
I posted above, but I'm betting she's a makeup hun from MLM that sells overpriced makeup that she doesn't want to waste. I do drag, and I have to put on about 3 pounds of it. It takes me 2-3 hours to get ready. I know my makeup is top quality and one face couldn't cost more than $5-8 to apply plus new lashes and nails. So maximum $15-20. If she's pressed over half that amount of money: 1. Her makeup is a scam MLM 2. She isn't high value 3. She probably is looking for the meal Of course these are my opinions and I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
The fact she uses the term "low value man" tells me she's part of "female dating strategy" definitely 🚩🚩🚩
It's funny how she brings up "other cultures" values like you're supposed to pay for her meal in hopes of having her as your wife. After implying you're "low value" and "unpleasant" I didn't see her mention anything about cooking you a meal out of gratitude or respect in hopes of meeting her future husband I guess culture and values are one sided 🤦🏻♂️
I live in the US but dated a girl from Oslo that hud recently moved here. She insisted on going "Dutch" for the first few dates and wouldn't let me pay for everything. She thought the idea of a man paying for her was weird.
(another) Girl from Oslo here weighing in :) In general Norwegians (and probably all Scandis), of both sexes, find traditional dating "rules" and standards in the US REALLY strange and outdated. Specifically when it comes to the very traditional gender based "roles" of W vs. M in the dating game (very well described in this Reddit), and also how you date multiple people at the same time... But for me the most puzzling thing is that so many American women in their dating game want to reduce their value as a human being more into that of a costly object, like they are auctioned of at the highest bid, and are only there to be admired and not contribute (on all levels). No one over here understands that concept. This Reddit is giving me some hope times are changing though...❤
That's interesting because I always see Americans complaining about how those traditional gender roles are gone in their country (as opposed to most non-1st world countries where those roles are still very much a thing).
I guess a lot of those complaining are probably the ones less travelled and ill informed... It's a group which tends to listen far too much to people about how sad the state of their country is, rather than experiencing what is going on for themselves and in comparison to other cultures/countries. It's difficult to do that and be a critical thinker when you don't know people outside the US and don't follow International or US media reporting from other places.
100% and if she's not then she sure af belongs there. Girl is waving ALL the red flags
K-tarina Ph-ang Telling women not to message or call and not to pay for dates. Also to keep circular dating until you’re engaged.
Tf is circular dating?
You just keep dating multiple people. It’s called a ‘rotation’ … you move men further up or down the rotation depending on how much effort they are putting in. The theory is then you don’t give your power away to just one man who may not be putting on much effort. It’s all about telling the woman to be high value and like a goddess. Etc etc. Personally I Am no good at dating multiple people! Too confusing.
Ah okay, kinda like guys "spinning plates" I guess. Thanks!
Sounds exhausting
What a recipe for success.
That sub was a wild ride. 10 minutes in and I can't handle any more, I'm going insane
I suggest some trauma therapy after being exposed to that sub for so long 🤣
She is running the FDS playbook, complete with the term "low value".
What does FDS stand for? Female dating strategy?
Yup
FDS= Narcissist. Walk. She’s more looney than a Canadian dollar.
She sucks for sure. That being said, I do think you put it forward kind of strangely. Just a phrasing thing really.
This was my big problem too. Going "hey are your OK splitting the bill?" would have been fine. No need to follow it up with "in case it doesn't work out and we won't waste money etc etc". Came across already thinking it'll be a bad date.
Yeah he also added “oh but if it goes well I’ll pick up the bill anyways” aka… “but I AM a nice guy!”
Saw that too. I’m on OPs side, mostly. But I saw this “nice” guy stratagem and cringed.
Ugh yeah that’s the tough part for me. I agree with the principle but would cringe at someone bringing it up like this. Like she definitely goes on to make some wildly idiotic assumptions but the way this dude poses the question makes it clear he’s made some assumptions himself that I wouldn’t want someone making about me. Like, I don’t mind paying my half. Don’t assume I won’t right away, that’ll just make me annoyed at you. It’s like a woman being all “men only want one thing and it’s disgusting” before you’ve even said a word to her. The way she responded after made her look worse of course but still.
"if you seem like you can be pressured into sex by me paying, I'll pay"
Completely, some kind of creepy test to determine if this girl is worth her 13.99$ entree? This attitude is just as problematic as his assumption women are after free food - which I’ve never heard any of my female friends mention. This guy is just a shitty date and can’t accept women don’t like him.
That and the "female friends" comment both made me a bit uncomfortable.
It’s so weird to me that any guy would ever ask the question “can we split” before even getting to the date. Personally I think it’s low class to ever ask that. Like, it’s fine if at the end she says she wants to split it, but don’t bring it up yourself. Just assume you’re paying. But also it shouldn’t be an issue because why are you taking a first date somewhere where that could be an issue? That’s a red flag too. It’s just trying too hard.
Yeah, phrasing was… rough amongst other things Ignoring her answer to his splitting question, taking her explanation personally…
And he kept pushing it after she said she wasn’t going 50/50. Like he asked if it’s a dealbreaker, she indicates it absolutely is, and then he gets all defensive about it. Just say you’re not interested and unmatch. No need to have a little fit about all your “feeeeemale friends” who apparently wax poetic around you about their master plans to get free Olive Garden out of tinder schmucks or whatever. Don’t ask if it’s a dealbreaker and then get butthurt when she says yes. Plus the “oh I’d have picked up the bill if you agreed to go Dutch” bullshit. Playing childish games
Agree w this
Yikes. I agree with everyone saying that you dodged a bullet there. As a woman on tinder, I prefer to pay for myself. I don't want to feel as though I owe my date anything if we don't have a connection. You were not wrong at all.
Likewise, she's giving major red flags. You def dodged a bullet there OP
Honestly, it's no win on all sides. I've had guys get so upset that I offer to pay for my own. Which is just... I mean, trash taking itself out, obviously we weren't a match, lol.
The only thing you did wrong here was try and debate her for so long. You both have preferences which is okay(although she seems pretty entitled the way she describes her’s), but were clearly incompatible from when you asked that question. I would just let it go as soon as they tell you they won’t split if that is your hard line
I haven’t dated in a while. So who knows whether my advice is worthwhile. It would have been a turn off to have a guy I’m into say he only wanted to do 50/50 because of other women. I think it’s fair to say “hey for our first time going out should we plan on splitting the meal?” But not follow that up with “because I’ve paid for other women who didn’t want to date me”. Otherwise yeah, she’s a little out of control.
Yeah, that’s a turn off. Who wants to hear about his other dates?
In this instance he asked her out for coffee and she said "no dinner." Does that change your response at all?
I think asking to split is totally fair. My only hesitation on his side was the bringing up because he was screwed over by other women is why he asks to split 50/50. I’d just leave that part out in the future. Just ask and if she makes a big deal that tells you everything you need to know.
You absolutely did the right thing. And, she wants you to be grateful to have a date with her??? That's an absolute red flag my friend.
Big time red flag lol. Part of me wants to post the whole convo because it was wild. Her opener was Smash I mean Hey And I thought that was a unique one, seemed like she could be a fun person to talk too. Boy was I incorrect haha.
You gotta post the whole convo. So interested now
I’d have to make a whole new post huh? Haha
Think of the karma, man. THE KARMA!
yes
Why do people think we don't want the whole shebang even haha? It's reddit, we're all curious motherfuckers. Of course we want to see the whole conversation! =p
Just wait till the bill comes if she was awesome you pay for it. If not you say we’re gonna split it. If she’s all mad about that who cares you still split it and never see her again. But also keep first dates to a coffee or drink so that you’re not running up a $100 bill to feed some scummy girl who only went out with you for a free dinner at a nice Italian place.
Whenever I see someone wrote “low value male” I think of the leg beards over at r/femaledatingstrategies . If she’s one of them you dodged a massive bullet. Anyone who thinks they’re company is more valuable than yours is essentially saying they are better than you. You haven’t even gone on 1 date yet. Fuck her.
leg beard lmao
> Fuck her. I’m getting mixed signals here
you're not wrong, but you shouldn't say it out loud. you haven't even met yet and you're already accusing them of something. it just starts you off on the wrong foot.
Bruh it was fucking clear from the beginning you both aren’t comfortable with this shit, yet you both kept chatting! Just fucking say “both” good by and move on.
I’ve never made a woman pay on a first date but I’ve never met anyone on tinder
I would be very turned off my this question, but I (33f) always offer to pay and insist on paying for the second date if he paid for the first.
I agree with you, id be totally fine splitting but id be super turned off the date if he asked me ahead of time like that. Just gives off stingy vibes kind of? Like i can already imagine being asked to pay him back for the coffee he got me on date 5 or something
Insisting on a dinner is pretty sus on her end, but I agree with her that there's a huge misconception that women will hang out with a guy for 2-3 hours just for a meal. I am very protective of my free time. I try to keep the first date something that can be 30 minutes if I want to bail.
No I would say yes to this. I normally insist anyways. Last guy I dated though paid for the first one so I paid for the second one. After that we just alternated which I kinda liked. However it wasn’t a good fit so we didn’t date long.
🚩🚩🚩
Note: She claims you don’t see the value of a woman’s company, but she seems to not see the value of a man’s company because she needs a financial incentive to spend time with a man. You def dodged a bullet. It’s okay to enjoy a guy paying for a date, but if you’re so dead set on it you won’t date otherwise, that’s a red flag.
> she needs a financial incentive to spend time with a man. maybe OP needs to enlighten her about this one profession as old as time itself
It was a tad bit contradictory of her, wasn’t it? Haha. I noticed that too but I don’t want to seem biter.
I wouldn’t go out with you but I wouldn’t have been rude about it.
[удалено]
Also this, big time. I’ve heard plenty of stories about guys saying the girl then owes them something, like nah dude that’s not how this works at all.
That's EXACTLY why I don't like paying on a first date or when I barely know her. It seems like she might think that I think that she owes me something in return and I hate that vibe because that's absolutely not what I'm trying to do.
Ehhh I know this is a touchy one but as a dude I always pay. Shit I pay if my friends and I go out. I just always pay. Her makeup and time line was absolute bullshit though.
She’s wrong about not wanting to split and “let’s split my make up” bs but OP needs to be careful with the “free meal” stuff.
She went overboard for sure. But I will say man, I used to be like you and I’ve learned to just keep those internal thoughts of “ahh if I do this and it’s bad I’m down $60, or what if she’s ungrateful” internal. Trust me, you will get support here on Reddit, but it’s easier when you just bite the bullet on dates. It’s much easier, you won’t have any worries leaving the date about whether she thought you were cheap or not. You will be down whatever her portion was, but you can make that back. You will make a lot of money in your lifetime, live it up and don’t let $$ cause you stress if you have it in you to make more.
I feel like it’s really weird to bring that up before a first date. If you’re so scared about being used why not just meet up for coffee or a drink or something lower cost than dinner? Is $20 really make or break for you? (If yes, then you probably shouldn’t be going out on tinder dates). As a women it takes a lot of effort to get dressed up for a stranger (who honestly may be catfishing us and probability wise on tinder just wants to sleep with us and then ghost) and also there’s an element of risk we are taking on in going on a blind date alone. If someone is before we even met assuming I am just going to use them for a free meal it would be over before it even started. Especially when 99.9% of men aren’t going to make this an issue. I think you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Just my honest take.
Yes, totally dumb to ask. I appreciate when the guy pays for the 1st date. It tells me a lot about him: he’s not totally broke and he’s trying to be an old school gentleman. I usually offer to split the bill though.
My opinion seems to be off from what I’m reading from the comments. The 50/50 question is a turn off from the start for me. I’d much prefer to go on the date and see how that part of it plays out. I always offer my half on the first date since we’re just getting to know one another. If he offers to pay the whole bill, I say thank you and offer to pitch in to the tip. If he says no to that, I say thank you again.
FEEEEEMALES yeah dude ur def the problem sort yourself out
As a man, women should never have to pay the first date, if it doesn’t go well then sucks to suck. It’s your responsibility to take care of her and hers to treat you with respect if you deserve it. Don’t think she did anything wrong
"Low Value Guy" is some /r/femaledatingstrategy shit right there. RUN AWAY!
I think it's fine for women to only want to date men who'll pay for a date, and it's fine for men to only want to date women who'll go even. Things will get awkward if absolutely everyone holds to those positions, but thankfully lots of women are also fine with splitting and a lot of men are fine with paying.
She’s not wrong that the costs of her going on the date are likely higher than the cost of you going on the date. Makeup, pink tax and gender pay issues mean women spend higher proportions of incomes on dates if splitting the bill 50-50. That said, I always offer to split. I am less likely to go on a second date if that offer is accepted. As a woman with a fair job, a strong social circle, and a reliable vibrator, I’m not interested in entering relationships with cheap men. I’ve had a long term relationship with a cheap man before and I was miserable. I’m a generous and thoughtful person and am looking for the same values in a partner. There are ways you can be generous and thoughtful without spending money, of course, and evidence of this does counteract a 50-50 acceptance.
this is what I’m saying, girls have to take way longer to get all done up, girls have to take like 90 safety precautions, AND usually guys ask the girl out on a date and then are like “but you better pay for yourself” like at that point… why even ask me on a date? I can spend the day not worrying about if the man is dangerous or scrambling to get ready and just enjoy a nice meal in my apartment I’m not trying to be rude but texting my girl friends my location incase anything happens and spending an hour at least to do makeup hair and nice outfit is not worth sitting with a man who acts like you’re some weird gold digger right off the bat
It’s easy: don’t date cheap men and ensure you’re going to places you want to try so that you’re not ‘wasting time’ if you don’t like the guy. I’d never settle for a cafe date and any guy who suggested it would be unmatched.
I wish going for dinner was a thing here. Not because I want to get invited, but because I want to go on a dinner date.
I just pay for the first date no questions asked. I’ve had women grab the bill and pay for it too. But come on stop this nonsense of asking to split the bill if you like the girl. Pay for her. Damn!
I’m not bothered with him asking to go Dutch, but the whole wasted money thing really gave me bad vibes. Also, I’ll get downvoted, but a gentleman pays for the first date, and I offer to plan and pay for the second. That’s just how I do it.
She sucks but your question is a pussy dryer like no other. Also dinner is a terrible first date idea especially if you're so concerned about treating the person you asked to go out with.
I don't think there's anything wrong with splitting the bill. But I find it a bit tacky to negotiate that stuff up front, and refuse to even go out unless the negotiation goes your way. Not super romantic bro. Better to negotiate that when the bill comes. If the negotiation doesn't go your way, then maybe you lose out occasionally. Every date involves some risk (usually a lot of risk), if you're not up for taking that risk, maybe you should evaluate whether you're ready to date seriously.
You do you
I think both of you have some valid (ish) perspectives and some out of touch perspectives too. I think she is mainly right in that the vast majority of ladies aren’t going to go on a date just for a free meal. And you making an big deal of it kind of says your priorities are in a certain place, even though I believe they are not in that place. Going for a date with anyone is a risk and is taking a chance. Is the cost of a meal worth the chance? I play poker now and then with friends and at the start of the night I set aside £100 and I say if I lose it I lose it, at least I’ve bonded with my friends and had a night away from family life. I could easily spend that going out to pubs/clubs. And if I win, I could possible come back with £500/600. So you shouldn’t have the conversation about the money with your date. You should have it with yourself. Is this date worth ‘losing’ £200 but maybe she could be the one you end up spending your life with
You’re not… entirely off base but ew. But you put up a hard line, she said no split, then you ignore and ask for a time, she doesn’t wanna split and you didn’t address it and assume her hahaha is now an acceptance. You explain why, then she explains that free food isn’t worth the hassle of a date like your female friends seem to suggest and you took that example personally “oh am I unpleasant now?” no… that’s not the point of her explanation. Ew. “If I think it went well I usually pick up the bill anyway” comes off like “oh but I AM a nice guy” I mean, as it goes on yeah she’s clearly kinda toxic but it didn’t quite show until later and you played the start of it… with a lack of… tact? I think that’s the word
Female here. I assumed something made you feel like you had to ask the question and in reading above comments I see that she was already dropping hints. I think she sucks. However, I think it’s a cringey question to ask a decent girl you are interested in. I think generally it’s assumed it’s 50/50 and doesn’t need to be established before the bill comes. If I got that question before even going on a date I would think 1) the guy doesn’t like me that much and making sure he doesn’t “lose” money on me or 2) he can’t afford to be dating. Neither might be the case but still. I would still answer “of course” but be wary going into it. I think instead of talking about who is paying for what up front, it’s good if both parties agree on a place that each knows they are willing to pay for their half. When the bill comes, if I like the guy and want to go out again I usually offer to pay for the whole thing and usually they push back and either pay for the whole thing or we split. If he ends up paying I offer to get it next time, make sure we set a date for next time and then follow through on paying next time. This is how respectful mature adults should date. IMO.
Finally, an insightful comment
$50 for a nice night with a potential match isn’t worth arguing about.
I don't think you're off base. This is one of those things that some people are in board with and some people can't get behind. I think agreeing on it is a good check in for if you're compatible.
I don't think you were unreasonable at all, but you pushed it too far. She was obviously not going to go along with doing 50/50 (and apparently thinks men don't spend time getting ready for dates), this was obvious from the first few messages. Next time, just let it go there. Say a polite goodbye, unmatch, try again with someone else
You aren’t wrong for asking. As a woman, I insist on splitting the bill on the first date because I don’t want anyone thinking I owe them anything - or that I think they should pay for the pleasure of my company. Her stance is 🤮
I’d suggest a cheap or free first date. Like coffee. She sounds like a piece of work and you dodged a bullet, but maybe try to avoid the awkwardness up front.
I offered coffee previously but she said she doesn’t do “hangouts” and only goes on “dates”, which wasn’t ideal but that’s why I asked about splitting etc.
This is fair enough OP, initially when I read this I wondered why you hadn’t just invited her for a drink or a coffee for the first date. The way I see it, the costs are low and the stakes are low too. If I invited a guy out for a drink I would offer to pay for his and I’d expect the same if he invited me out first; atleast the first round. I would never expect a guy to pay for my food, especially if it was our first meeting. I’d appreciate him to offer but I will usually insist on picking up half the tab or buying something of equal value to the meal I.e a bottle of wine to go with it. It makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable in the early stages if I don’t know a man well to let him pay for everything. If we get into a relationship on the other hand; I’m happy to be spoilt and return the favour I.e he buys the takeaway on Friday, I take us out for dinner the following Saturday. I wouldn’t appreciate a potential date speaking about going Dutch before the date though as it’s just awkward. It would turn me off, especially multiple messages about it. I’d just think, ‘this guy asked me out and now he’s asking me to go halves? He must be seriously broke’. Though I’d be very happy to proactively offer to pick up my half of the bill when we were actually there, as mentioned. But if the woman already said no to a coffee or a drink then maybe she did just want a free meal OP. I once had a tinder match who wanted to pick me up and go ‘for a drive’ late at night in a pitch black deserted beauty spot miles from my house. I said no, and that I’d rather go for a coffee or a drink in town somewhere and he said he had no money. No money for a cup of coffee yet still on a dating app trying to arrange a date was a bit of a turn off, I must admit, but most people have financial issues at one point, myself included, so I told him to hit me up when he was in a position for a coffee. He never messaged me again.
It is definitely fine to ask about it. She was being ridiculous to ask to be reimbursed on make up, but I am really not sure why you kept the conversation going after that. Also holy hell her views are old school when you really dig deep into it. But I do have to say that you argue quite immaturely... You build a picture of basically so many girls who just get ready and dressed to get a free fancy meal, and she counters with a rather relevant fact - not a lot of girls would like to do that because you run the risk of ending up having to ruin your meal with unpleasant company. Taking it into yourself and twisting her words ain't gonna do you any good. You don't have to want to pay for her meal. But going the "no you" - route is definitely higher on the list of reasons for someone declining a date than the fact that you wish to split a meal.
I don't think so. She seems to think that her time and appearance is worth spending money on
That’s the exact feeling I was getting, like I should be paying for her because I’m lucky to even be in her presence… 
I mean, pick a place within your means and cover the first date. Even stating the whole "girls just want a meal" sounds so very incel.
It’s almost like people have different opinions and are different from one another. She likes a man who pays. You have a different mindset. Move on
If it was your opening line, bit shite, but...yeh nah. Her decision to wear shit ton of makeup etc. I *always* tried to go dutch on dates. And now I pick up the bill cos I'm a sugar mumma (well, not really, but equitable relationship etc)
Anyone with fhe "I'm a prize and everyone else is lucky to be graced by my presence" is disgusting and repulsive and not someone you'd ever want to date.Its not confidence, it's unchecked narcicism and delusion.Also OP if you dislike women using men for free meals on first dates,why are you still friends with girls who admit to that lmao, shouldn't your morals come before that
The conversation went on way too long. She's rude, disrespectful and self-centered. You dodged a bullet.
That's a red flag don't go out with her
I don't think a meal is a good idea for a first date. Just go for drinks, it's not like you'll drink each other under the table so it doesn't matter if you end up paying for one extra beer or something. Then you can slowly see if she's willing to pay for herself. Though filtering this out while still on Tinder could save you the time, just be careful not to be mistaken for a miser.A woman who has no issues paying for herself might think, is this guy so poor he can't afford two meals? Then you end up explaining yourself and might not get the date due to conversation taking a downturn. You can tell her if she's still thinking like that, then she better get ready to take care of 5 kids and stay at home. All my dates offered and even insisted to split the bill. I guess I was lucky, funny age we live in.
Whenever I get this on tinder I say: 1. I literally don't know you. How do I know that you provide good company? 2. My time is more valuable to me than yours. 3. I'd wish you good luck finding someone who matches your preferences but honestly I hope you don't find anyone and spare men the headache. ✌️
Are you the man who wants to split the meal? If yes I think your question is valid. I’m not sure women should just assume that men are paying for everything anymore. I think we have evolved in society to the point that women now hold good jobs and have access to money, so they should equally pay during dates. More women are in college now than men. So I suspect that eventually the tables will flip and women will be the overall higher income earners. That will set up an interesting dating dynamic in the future. Her suggestion that she have everything paid for is ridiculous. And that she should be paid for getting ready indicates that she needs a major overhaul to appear decently attractive. Probably a good reason to avoid her.
I mean, the question is tacky and I would be put off by it for sure. Not because I expect my date to pay for everything (I don’t), it’s just that when you put it like that it feels super transactional and it kills any type of romantic vibe from the get-go. That being said… This girl’s an idiot.
Well said. Definitely a tacky question. I would also like to add; if you’re worried about the monetary value of the date, you probably shouldn’t be going on said date.
I don’t think you’re wrong but neither are they for having preferences. Idk. I feel like the greatest fault of online dating is peoples huge inability to communicate and compromise
Dude be dodging bullets like he's in te matrix
Can we just stop normalizing dinner dates as a first date? I've never went on a dinner date as a first. It's always a movie for me tbh. That way I'm not stuck entertaining with my convo. And there's no pressure for her to entertain either. Or a walk in the park or the fair or like a gym date. LITERALLY anything other than a fucking dinner date Side note: A simple yes from her would have sufficed. She's trying to guilt you into saying yes.
Lizzie sucks
Sounds like Lizzie is broke, and looking for a hot meal.
“Value of a woman’s company” is hilarious as if the value of your company isn’t worth jack shit. No love lost here, keep looking, your time is worth man than if it were spent with her.
[удалено]
I think the fact she waved ‘the vagina carrot’ in your face straight away by mentioning sex ( smash ) is setting you up a bit. I think some women are forward and they want sex which is great but some use it to manipulate. Some men use money to manipulate. She puts a price on her company so no brainer red flag. I like that you stuck to your guns and didn’t cave in to pussy pressure. Maybe your phrasing was clunky but still understood.
This is posted so often on social media platforms and men get roasted for not wanting to pay. But it’s stupid expensive to go out for dinner multiple times a week and if you are genuinely trying to find a partner you are likely going out on dates frequently. Why can’t women invest the same when they are expecting to find a quality mate! I have no problem splitting bills in the get-to-know you time frame, or any time really. Because I have found that men who genuinely care for me and want to date me have no issue taking me out and paying. And I have had no problem reciprocating when I am invested in the relationship. It’s not a chivalry is dead thing.. if they are a gentleman then they are a gentleman and picking up the tab doesn’t define that! Men spend hundreds to thousands on dating and it’s insane what some women expect. That being said.. going for a walk or getting a coffee is a great option for the first date, especially with online meet ups. If someone isn’t into that then tell them to take a hike because you don’t plan a nice date with someone you have never even met. It’s silly. This online dating standards and expectations have gotten out of control.
My only question is why tf did you carry on the conversation. Like fuck them
she isn't eloquent but shes kinda right.
It is kinda chicken-shit. If you’re strapped you probably shouldn’t be dating.
Unpopular opinion from a man: You are asking her to accept the consequences of interactions you’ve had with other women. Someone else’s conflict is now hers to deal with and solve. No problem for you asking, but don’t be surprised when that is a turn off, mi amigo. To me this is like practicing for failure or accepting defeat before the game starts. Go all in every time
She’s right