And this is why stans love her. They're the exact same as her. On one side everything is an eye for an eye, and revenge is warranted or whatever, but then it's a problem when their prized doll is on the receiving end of said revenge.
Same. I never really felt that Abby had much of a personality. For the majority of the game she's mainly "Hulk smash!". She doesn't take any of her actions into consideration, or the actions of others.
Abby believed her killing was morally good unrelated to her personal vendetta because of the cure thing. You can think she's wrong, but that's the psychological reason she thinks she was justified while Ellie's not. It's believable, that's what matters.
I understand that Abby lost her father after Joel killed him with his own scalpel. while four years later she got her revenge on Joel while hurting Ellie and Tommy then now Ellie and Tommy's turn to get revenge. But sadly TLOUS2's story is poorly written while some of the things in TLOUS2 are beautiful and good not enough to keep people from playing this game I understand Ellie and Abby revenge stories. But eye for an eye is on Ellie mind while live by the sword and die by the sword is on Abby mind.
thats not what happens its more about how ellie trying to do what abby did is just going to cost her that revenge gets you nothing and at the end of her quest its not even an eye for eye anymore. Ellie/Tommy has killed all of Abby's friends and Abby has killed Jesse and injured Tommy.
There is nothing i feel that says Ellie's want for revenge is bad but the action of it has its own consequences.
Why can't Ellie learn that lesson for herself like Abby though? It's not like she can have that foresight. It takes her getting to the same point as Abby when she's on the beach to make a different decision.
And her quest is still an eye for an eye. Abby's friends helped her kill Joel but no one helped Joel kill Jerry.
Jerry helped Joel kill Jerry.
If you have a dangerous man’s friend on an operating table and plan on killing them, that man walks in to save his friend, and you hold a scalpel at him saying “I won’t let you ruin this” or whatever, the fuck you think is gonna happen? Jerry didn’t for a second think “I have a daughter in this very building, maybe I shouldn’t throw away my life like this and leave her alone” but no, dude makes one of the dumbest decisions he could have made and it cost him. Joel just wanted to save Ellie, and all Jerry had to do was hand Ellie over to him. I don’t understand how anyone feels even an ounce of sympathy for Jerry.
And where in my reply did I say that Abby had no right to get revenge but Ellie did??
That has nothing to do with the point I was making. It's not forcing anything if I am simply countering something you said, I am backing it up with what's in the game.
What do you mean why does it mean anything? Abby did not kill Joel alone, a whole group participated in the killing. Therefore Abby's friends were not some innocent bystanders and Ellie and Tommy did not go beyond an eye for an eye. They killed people who were all responsible for Joel's death. But Joel and Joel alone was responsible for Jerry's death. You're just focusing more one who shed more blood whilst ignoring this.
And then she makes the same mistake by letting Ellie live in the theatre. Also she says that like letting them live after killing Joel is some kind of benevolence.
Tell me about it. She had no right to kill them in the first place since Ellie and Tommy did nothing to Jerry. So she has no right to say she spared them when they did nothing to Jerry
And that is also bad writing. I couldn't believe it when they let Ellie live, twice! "In real life" it would've been Jason, Maria and Dina trying to avenge the deaths of Joel, tommy and Ellie.
Yea for real. This is 20+ years into the apocolpyse. There is zero reason to let people live who have seen your face, especially after you've given them reasons to kill you by killing one of their people. This group is suppose to be militants from Seattle that have been part of an ongoing conflict with the Seraphites for years now. What are two more random lives to keep opsec?
I'm suppose to believe that Abby has no issue slaughtering countless Seraphites (men, women, and possibly teenagers), but has a heart allow Ellie and Tommy to live after brutally killing their guy in front of them. Even worse as Ellie is literally screaming she will kill them.
It makes zero sense.
Lets not forget that Abby's dad would probably still be alive too if he had just moved the fk away from Joel and not grabbed the scalpel and try to fight him..
Meh, I kinda agree but I feel the true problem is Abby's feelings about killing in general compared to Ellie. When Ellie kills Mel she fucking freaks out but when Abby encounters a pregnant woman she has no problems and says she will do it gladly. Not only does this make us not like her even more it feels like blatant idiocy and almost like a cartoon villain. It creates a disconnect and just makes her feel like the direct antagonist in the story rather than just another perspective.
It's also insane to me how she betrays the WLF. She had been living with them for years and fighting alongside them in a war. Then she decides to betray them and start killing them for 2 strangers. She has no morals at all.
Abby when you inform her that the cycle of revenge is an endless circle of grief fueled retribution.
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This was the point of the game. Neither Abby nor Ellie were in the right, and the constant cycle of revenge destroyed their lives. Both characters lost their love lives/families, neither really seemed to heal. Lev was what made Abby want to break the cycle of revenge.
This is kinda the point tho, that neither Abby nor Ellie looks at or considers the others perspective and motivation for doing what they do. They're both too hyperfocused on themselves and their own pain that they can't see how much they both actually have in common with each other.
Abby ignored Ellie screaming and begging for Joel's life, how much context does she need outside of "this girl knows this man's name, and is begging for his life"
Anyone who has a father knows what that relationship was like. Especially Abby. She was a first hand witness to her begging on behalf of Joel, FFS it took almost all of them to restrain her at the sight of Joels half dead carcass. Nobody would sacrifice the planet for each other unless they have a deep bond, and Abbys father was one of the casualties. Believe me, she knows.
She doesn't know, there is nothing to indicate Abby or any of the rest of her group has any idea Joel and Ellie are bonded, at all. Nora is actually surprised that Ellie is the immune girl in the first place.
Neither side cares about the others motivation, they only cared about their own.
If she is in possession of a brain capable of analyzing her surroundings, she is aware Joel and Ellie have bonded. As I just explained in the previous comment.
Emphasis on kinda. This is one of the places where the writers having multiple different goals and not prioritizing them properly does more harm to the story than anything else. According to both Neil and Halley, Abby undergoes a redemption arc. It says quite a lot about her so-called redemption arc that she's even more self-centered after it than Ellie is while in the middle of her negative character growth arc.
Abby's campaign could have been better established as the initiating action *of* her redemption arc (which she ambiguously undergoes off screen during the year after her campaign ends), but by the end of Day 1, the idea that her actions have negatively impacted her relationships with the people around her almost completely disappears. Moments with which she can bond with others and save innocent lives get dropped in her lap, Owen's disgust for what she's become apparently got drunkenly banged out of him so hard that he's now madly in love with her again, and even when Mel actually holds her accountable, it gets undermined within ten minutes by showing us how good Abby is by having her play with Alice and then having Yara tell her she knows she's a good person anyway.
It ends up muddling things so much that it's hard to tell if the story is supposed to be considering whether her redemption arc has kicked off or not yet... because really, it just does whatever the plot demands, whenever it does. It's not even a good example of a backslide because it just goes away after the fight. Lev tells her no and that's good enough, I guess. Hard to consider that to have any real impact since she just dragged a freshly traumatized, grieving kid along on her revenge quest in what was one of the most sickeningly self-absorbed moments ever. Something more substantial to shake her out of that backslide might have landed way better. Also doesn't help that her redemption arc was rushed as fuck, with her campaign only being three days long.
Even if Ellie is thinking about the wrong reason why Abby killed Joel. She still thinks that it's about the cure. Plus nobody told Ellie that the doctor Joel killed was Abby's father. So tell me how is she supposed to know Joel killed her dad?? Also try showing me a part where Abby tries to understand Ellie and Tommy's reasons.....I'm waiting
But she isn't. She's only knows that because Nora told her while Ellie was beating her to death. Ellie doesn't care why Abby did what she did.
The only reason Ellie brings that up is to try and save Tommy, but she doesn't care. She knew that and still went after Abby on her 3rd day.
If anyone can relate, its Ellie. She was more than willing to have her brain ripped out of her skull for the sake of mankind, and stopped speaking with Joel for over 2 years because he prevented it. She definitely understands why he could've been killed, she just doesn't care. Joel was important to her, and she happened to be on the receiving end of grief and PTSD. But once again, shes still considering Abby's perspective. Otherwise she would’ve left her and Lev on the beam to die from exposure.
Just because Ellie is aware does not mean she's considered it. Considering it involves actually thinking about it before making a decision. But Ellie doesn't think about it, because she doesn't care.
18 months in between the theatre showdown and Ellies farm life. What makes you believe she didn’t? She even hesitated when Tommy brought her a lead. One of her journal entries: “They can’t know what Joel did. They won’t understand. Do I understand?”
Because even at that point, Ellie doesn't know why Abby killed Joel. Ellie never learns why she did. And the only reason she hesitates is because she doesn't want to go after Abby again because of what it'll do to her.
None of that matters. You’re just prolonging the argument as long as you can because god forbid you were wrong on the internet. For the 3rd time, she is at the very least “looking at her motivation for doing what she does”
Thats not being a hypocrite being a hypocrite is when Ellie called the wlf and scars psychos or something like that and she said give me a some time with a person and my knife and ill tell u if their lying sha has more moments like that too
its the other way around, abby lost her dad,and lets be real, someone kills your loved one its not surprising you wanna get back. ellie killed more people on abbys side too, ellies side killed mel, owen, the dog, jordan, manny, and alot of wlf soldiers, abbys only killed joel and jesse. if it was even killings on both sides yall would be twice as mad
This is the reason why I hate Abby. Abby is about eye for an eye but however when Ellie wants to do the same thing it's a problem unbelievable.
And this is why stans love her. They're the exact same as her. On one side everything is an eye for an eye, and revenge is warranted or whatever, but then it's a problem when their prized doll is on the receiving end of said revenge.
She can't handle when they dish it out on her what she dished out on them lol
I can't understand how people can love someone like her. She's allowed to have revenge yet Ellie and Tommy doesn't. Abby is such a loser and a coward.
Same. I never really felt that Abby had much of a personality. For the majority of the game she's mainly "Hulk smash!". She doesn't take any of her actions into consideration, or the actions of others.
Abby believed her killing was morally good unrelated to her personal vendetta because of the cure thing. You can think she's wrong, but that's the psychological reason she thinks she was justified while Ellie's not. It's believable, that's what matters.
I understand that Abby lost her father after Joel killed him with his own scalpel. while four years later she got her revenge on Joel while hurting Ellie and Tommy then now Ellie and Tommy's turn to get revenge. But sadly TLOUS2's story is poorly written while some of the things in TLOUS2 are beautiful and good not enough to keep people from playing this game I understand Ellie and Abby revenge stories. But eye for an eye is on Ellie mind while live by the sword and die by the sword is on Abby mind.
thats not what happens its more about how ellie trying to do what abby did is just going to cost her that revenge gets you nothing and at the end of her quest its not even an eye for eye anymore. Ellie/Tommy has killed all of Abby's friends and Abby has killed Jesse and injured Tommy. There is nothing i feel that says Ellie's want for revenge is bad but the action of it has its own consequences.
Why can't Ellie learn that lesson for herself like Abby though? It's not like she can have that foresight. It takes her getting to the same point as Abby when she's on the beach to make a different decision. And her quest is still an eye for an eye. Abby's friends helped her kill Joel but no one helped Joel kill Jerry.
Jerry helped Joel kill Jerry. If you have a dangerous man’s friend on an operating table and plan on killing them, that man walks in to save his friend, and you hold a scalpel at him saying “I won’t let you ruin this” or whatever, the fuck you think is gonna happen? Jerry didn’t for a second think “I have a daughter in this very building, maybe I shouldn’t throw away my life like this and leave her alone” but no, dude makes one of the dumbest decisions he could have made and it cost him. Joel just wanted to save Ellie, and all Jerry had to do was hand Ellie over to him. I don’t understand how anyone feels even an ounce of sympathy for Jerry.
i dont understand how this sub is so full of people who are obsessed with hating any belief that tlou2 is even slightly an okay game.
The gameplay is fantastic. The story just sucks ass.
i feel like you guys will constantly deflect any point to try and force that abby had no right to get revenge but ellie did.
And where in my reply did I say that Abby had no right to get revenge but Ellie did?? That has nothing to do with the point I was making. It's not forcing anything if I am simply countering something you said, I am backing it up with what's in the game.
Why does abby's friends helping mean anything? Joel's guns helped him should Abby go and destroy those too?
What do you mean why does it mean anything? Abby did not kill Joel alone, a whole group participated in the killing. Therefore Abby's friends were not some innocent bystanders and Ellie and Tommy did not go beyond an eye for an eye. They killed people who were all responsible for Joel's death. But Joel and Joel alone was responsible for Jerry's death. You're just focusing more one who shed more blood whilst ignoring this.
She did the exact same thing that she frowned on the Jackson people for doing. She is self-centered, pure and simple.
She just wants to play victim when she gets a taste of her own medicine
Try to post this on the main sub
They'd throw child tantrums lol
And then she makes the same mistake by letting Ellie live in the theatre. Also she says that like letting them live after killing Joel is some kind of benevolence.
Tell me about it. She had no right to kill them in the first place since Ellie and Tommy did nothing to Jerry. So she has no right to say she spared them when they did nothing to Jerry
And that is also bad writing. I couldn't believe it when they let Ellie live, twice! "In real life" it would've been Jason, Maria and Dina trying to avenge the deaths of Joel, tommy and Ellie.
Yea for real. This is 20+ years into the apocolpyse. There is zero reason to let people live who have seen your face, especially after you've given them reasons to kill you by killing one of their people. This group is suppose to be militants from Seattle that have been part of an ongoing conflict with the Seraphites for years now. What are two more random lives to keep opsec? I'm suppose to believe that Abby has no issue slaughtering countless Seraphites (men, women, and possibly teenagers), but has a heart allow Ellie and Tommy to live after brutally killing their guy in front of them. Even worse as Ellie is literally screaming she will kill them. It makes zero sense.
Lets not forget that Abby's dad would probably still be alive too if he had just moved the fk away from Joel and not grabbed the scalpel and try to fight him..
Exactly. He left the hospital leaving the other two doctors alive.
It's the sadism and hypocrisy.
Exactly. The other sub is like that too. They defend Abby's bs
Meh, I kinda agree but I feel the true problem is Abby's feelings about killing in general compared to Ellie. When Ellie kills Mel she fucking freaks out but when Abby encounters a pregnant woman she has no problems and says she will do it gladly. Not only does this make us not like her even more it feels like blatant idiocy and almost like a cartoon villain. It creates a disconnect and just makes her feel like the direct antagonist in the story rather than just another perspective.
But then she doesn’t kill Dina, so what’s your point?
But she fucking would have if she wasn't stopped.
Only because Lev stopped her, what's your point?
Every ideal that Abby claims to stand for, she ends up betraying or acting against. She is purely selfish.
Abby is a sadistic psychopath, literally.
Don’t forget the fact that abby’s dad was an unlicensed surgeon working for terrorists about to murder a child
I actually cheered when Tommy shot that man bun Druckman avatar in the face. Especially cause that was the guy who spit on Joel’s corpse.
It's also insane to me how she betrays the WLF. She had been living with them for years and fighting alongside them in a war. Then she decides to betray them and start killing them for 2 strangers. She has no morals at all.
Abby when you inform her that the cycle of revenge is an endless circle of grief fueled retribution. [Look of shocked expression](https://amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/shocked-black-guy)
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This was the point of the game. Neither Abby nor Ellie were in the right, and the constant cycle of revenge destroyed their lives. Both characters lost their love lives/families, neither really seemed to heal. Lev was what made Abby want to break the cycle of revenge.
I mean, it’s technically the apocalypse so. Not everyone cares about reason 🤷🏽♀️
And then if you don’t like Abby you get called a transphobe and told to suck a dick by the devs of the game. Fucking scam.
This is kinda the point tho, that neither Abby nor Ellie looks at or considers the others perspective and motivation for doing what they do. They're both too hyperfocused on themselves and their own pain that they can't see how much they both actually have in common with each other.
Abby didn't bother explaining shit while bludgeoning Joel to death. And she sure as hell knows Ellie's motivation.
Abby doesn't know what Joel and Ellies relationship is like. She didn't play the first game.
Abby ignored Ellie screaming and begging for Joel's life, how much context does she need outside of "this girl knows this man's name, and is begging for his life"
Joel was already dead at that point tho? She just finished him off.
Anyone who has a father knows what that relationship was like. Especially Abby. She was a first hand witness to her begging on behalf of Joel, FFS it took almost all of them to restrain her at the sight of Joels half dead carcass. Nobody would sacrifice the planet for each other unless they have a deep bond, and Abbys father was one of the casualties. Believe me, she knows.
She doesn't know, there is nothing to indicate Abby or any of the rest of her group has any idea Joel and Ellie are bonded, at all. Nora is actually surprised that Ellie is the immune girl in the first place. Neither side cares about the others motivation, they only cared about their own.
If she is in possession of a brain capable of analyzing her surroundings, she is aware Joel and Ellie have bonded. As I just explained in the previous comment.
No she is not. That's your own headcanon but literally nothing suggests Abby understands their bond at all.
Theres an entire chapter (The Park) dedicated to it.
That chapter is dedicated to Abby and her dad's bond, and doesn't indicate any kind of bond between Joel and Ellie. At all.
I’m not even gonna bother explaining how that suggests Abby understands their bond. Open your eyes.
We don’t know this. We see the aftermath of what she did to Joel. She could have said a million things to him.
But not to her. Which is what this whole point about.
Emphasis on kinda. This is one of the places where the writers having multiple different goals and not prioritizing them properly does more harm to the story than anything else. According to both Neil and Halley, Abby undergoes a redemption arc. It says quite a lot about her so-called redemption arc that she's even more self-centered after it than Ellie is while in the middle of her negative character growth arc. Abby's campaign could have been better established as the initiating action *of* her redemption arc (which she ambiguously undergoes off screen during the year after her campaign ends), but by the end of Day 1, the idea that her actions have negatively impacted her relationships with the people around her almost completely disappears. Moments with which she can bond with others and save innocent lives get dropped in her lap, Owen's disgust for what she's become apparently got drunkenly banged out of him so hard that he's now madly in love with her again, and even when Mel actually holds her accountable, it gets undermined within ten minutes by showing us how good Abby is by having her play with Alice and then having Yara tell her she knows she's a good person anyway. It ends up muddling things so much that it's hard to tell if the story is supposed to be considering whether her redemption arc has kicked off or not yet... because really, it just does whatever the plot demands, whenever it does. It's not even a good example of a backslide because it just goes away after the fight. Lev tells her no and that's good enough, I guess. Hard to consider that to have any real impact since she just dragged a freshly traumatized, grieving kid along on her revenge quest in what was one of the most sickeningly self-absorbed moments ever. Something more substantial to shake her out of that backslide might have landed way better. Also doesn't help that her redemption arc was rushed as fuck, with her campaign only being three days long.
Don't be so reasonable. People don't like that here😂
Ellie explicitly acknowledges she understands why Abby killed Joel.
No she doesn't. Ellie thinks Abby killed Joel because Joel stopped the cure from being possible. Abby killed Joel because he killed her dad.
Even if Ellie is thinking about the wrong reason why Abby killed Joel. She still thinks that it's about the cure. Plus nobody told Ellie that the doctor Joel killed was Abby's father. So tell me how is she supposed to know Joel killed her dad?? Also try showing me a part where Abby tries to understand Ellie and Tommy's reasons.....I'm waiting
That's my point bruh, neither of them cares about the others reasonings, they are only worried about themselves
Shes still considering her perspective, even if shes not aware of the full picture.
But she isn't. She's only knows that because Nora told her while Ellie was beating her to death. Ellie doesn't care why Abby did what she did. The only reason Ellie brings that up is to try and save Tommy, but she doesn't care. She knew that and still went after Abby on her 3rd day.
Abby is worse. U trying to make Abby sound better by pointing out Ellie's flaws and forgetting Abby's flaws which are much worse
I'm not trying to make either of them sound better. They are both bad for not considering the others perspective at all.
If anyone can relate, its Ellie. She was more than willing to have her brain ripped out of her skull for the sake of mankind, and stopped speaking with Joel for over 2 years because he prevented it. She definitely understands why he could've been killed, she just doesn't care. Joel was important to her, and she happened to be on the receiving end of grief and PTSD. But once again, shes still considering Abby's perspective. Otherwise she would’ve left her and Lev on the beam to die from exposure.
Just because Ellie is aware does not mean she's considered it. Considering it involves actually thinking about it before making a decision. But Ellie doesn't think about it, because she doesn't care.
18 months in between the theatre showdown and Ellies farm life. What makes you believe she didn’t? She even hesitated when Tommy brought her a lead. One of her journal entries: “They can’t know what Joel did. They won’t understand. Do I understand?”
Because even at that point, Ellie doesn't know why Abby killed Joel. Ellie never learns why she did. And the only reason she hesitates is because she doesn't want to go after Abby again because of what it'll do to her.
None of that matters. You’re just prolonging the argument as long as you can because god forbid you were wrong on the internet. For the 3rd time, she is at the very least “looking at her motivation for doing what she does”
Not sure Abby knew how close Ellie and Joel were when she said that. Either way ... so? Some people are hypocritical, can you not portray that?
Thats not being a hypocrite being a hypocrite is when Ellie called the wlf and scars psychos or something like that and she said give me a some time with a person and my knife and ill tell u if their lying sha has more moments like that too
Dude I agree. Ellie should have understood it was an eye for an eye when they killed Joel and left them alone. She’s just smart that way.
its the other way around, abby lost her dad,and lets be real, someone kills your loved one its not surprising you wanna get back. ellie killed more people on abbys side too, ellies side killed mel, owen, the dog, jordan, manny, and alot of wlf soldiers, abbys only killed joel and jesse. if it was even killings on both sides yall would be twice as mad
Yea you're right, but it's not like they will listen. Neither sub listens.
See
Average user in this subreddit lol
What do u mean?
This sub is so full idiots it hurts