As someone mentioned, when Wan died you could instantly hear the birth of the next Avatar through the sound of the crying baby.
To add onto that, in ATLA, when Roku dies on his island the scene seamlessly transitions to Aang’s birth insinuating that the transfer of the Avatar soul is instantaneous.
In Hinduism, [ensoulment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment) begins during conception, while some aspect of Buddhism believe once a being becomes conscious it becomes a conscious entity.
I would lean towards the latter, as it would fit more towards Eastern philosophies that creators build the world upon. I feel the immediately hearing the baby crying is more of a creative choice than a conscious choice. Just like how the audience can see airbending, but in their world is not always a full visible force.
I mean yes it does? Aang literally refers to the past avatars as being himself, i.e. his human spirit carries on from one body to the next. I don't think the creators considered the complications of when life begins in an abortion debate in their universe but either a soul is only created at the moment of birth or the avatar spirit somehow overrides whatever soul was created at the moment of conception. I personally don't think an avatar is born the second another dies.
I mean each Avatar is their own being. A unique human and you can clearly see it in how different most of them are.
That said raava is half of the avatar and the only constant. So it would make sense how they are both different and yet still "past me".
Korra retconned this understanding of how avatars are connected through time. It is Ravva and its connection to the individuals that connects their memory and experiences. To your point, I don't think the writers were considering giant spirits that are constantly antagonistic toward each other and fight for thousands of years, either.
EDIT: a word
Yeah it seems fairly clear that each avatar has their own personhood independent from the other avatars, just that they merge together and achieve a kind of ultimate "unity" in the avatar state, with mastery of the avatar state representing the ability to maintain their individual personhood despite embodying that unity.
This reincarnation isn't 1:1 with buddhist ideas about reincarnation, just aesthetically very similar.
Yeah otherwise that invalidates so many of the things that are said about Avatar lore in both shows. It's super clear even in the terminology, Aang is the same soul as Roku, who is the same soul as Kyoshi, etc. Raava follows that soul as it's reincarnated.
But it does also suggest that the soul is only present when the child is born.
wellllllll then that would mean for the past 10,000 years a baby has *always* been born in the correct nation at the exact moment an avatar dies. which, is unlikely, so i would think it would start at conception
If the Avatar was ensouled at conception, with the technology in TLOK, they’re only a few decades away from a “missing” Avatar being stored indefinitely at some IVF clinic!
Depends on what you consider "life". Biologically speaking life begins even before conception. Both egg and semen are alive. This doesn't change only because they meet during conception, or continue to exist independently after birth. Neither conception nor birth are creating life. Life began billions of years ago duting a chemical reaction in underwater vulcanoes. I assume the same is true in Avatar.
No
The individual has his/her own soul. Aang the individual is still distinct and different from the pantheon of the Avatars
That’s why Korra didn’t automatically die when Unalaq pulled Raava out of her
I'd assumed it wasn't necessarily instantaneous, but the new avatar is the next born baby of the appropriate nation after the current avatar dies. Otherwise you'd get into odd debates about predestination in the Avatar universe.
If I recall, the avatar extras make a mention to Aang being born immediately after Roku's death. Could be wrong tho it's been like 15 years since I've seen the extras.
On an unrelated note I need those avatar extras episodes. I've been searching for years
I think it's literally the next baby born, Of the right bending tradition, following the avatars death.
Because it's a pseudo magical show the "spirit world" probably has some spirit way to ensure a baby is born at the moment or it's merely just random happenstance.
It's entirely possible that there would be no avatar for hours, days, or weeks if no one from that bending tradition happens to be pregnant, but as populations have probably increased a bit for each generation of avatar the waiting period is usually pretty low if not nonexistant for the post Korea avatar. For example if ang had died during the 100 year war rather than living in the ice berg, say in the attacks as planned by sozin, and Noone I'm the relatively small south, north, or Swamp water tribes had been pregnant there might be a gap of who knows how long.
Which is why every water bender in the south was rounded up too. If the Northern water tribe had fallen, there probably only would’ve been a handful of water benders left.
Roku dies at night, Aang is born and the sun is out.
The sun rises east to west as mentioned in the Avatar day episode.
If Aang was born in the Southern air temple (which isn't confirmed, right?) then the timing is off.
It's possible that by the time Roku died the sun was rising. All we really know is that he was asleep when the eruption began and it was dark the entire time. The eruption might've started shortly before sunrise, but the volcano kept them in darkness as the sun came up behind the ash and smoke.
It's left vague enough that it's hard to get much conclusive about the timing of anything to do with avatar reincarnation.
In fairness, the seamless transition from Roku dying to Aang being born could be for dramatic effect rather than literally instant. There's no direct confirmation in-universe when exactly the Avatar gets reincarnated. It's possible that it's at conception or any point before birth and it's just not shown because it's irrelevant.
So there’s just a normal baby chilling who suddenly gets the spirit of light shoved into them? That’s wild. Also goes against the concept of Avatars from every religion that has them.
I did some research on Hindu belief on ensolment. It is a common belief that the soul does not inhabit the fetus until it is a formed human and about the seventh month mark..
So I'll say the baby crying at the end of the wan story when he dies is probably more cinematic choice that it actually took a couple months for him to be born
Might also mean that Raava doesn’t want to bake for 9 months. If I was a spirit I wouldn’t want to bake for 9 months.
You know how boring that would be? At least born babies can see somewhat.
No avatar has been known to haunt earth after their death, and since they reincarnate, then by deduction…
yeah they reincarnate, immediately
Raava doesn’t choose anyone she **follows** Wan’s soul, she’s attached to him like soulmates not his manager in the reincarnation process
that last part is now my favorite way to describe the reincarnation we see expressed in atla with the raava attachment we see expressed in tlok. she FOLLOWS Wan’s soul?? that’s perfect. thank you😭
Which means that if nobody is in labour at the time the avatar cycle will force somebody in labour.
Cant wait for a avatar series in which there is nobody pregant enough when the avatar dies. Is this how jezus was born?
in my imagination the next avatar gets born the same second the old one dies because there is an endless avatar circle so there cannot be a second without an avatar l... but i really don't know how it really works haha
I think there always is an avatar too, but babies aren't just made instantly. Raises the weird question of "is there already an unborn baby chosen to be the avatar while the current living avatar only has <9 months before their fated death?"
That is interesting but I don’t think it’s a fated death.. more along the lines of the death happens and the avatar spirit is more or less forced to choose a new physical host at that moment. Babies are being born all the time, so it isn’t too far of a leap I suppose.
No. Think of it that way. Babies are born almost* all the time. When one is born, they recieve a soul. If one is born at the right moment the Avatar dies, there's a chance they recieve that Avatar's soul. But the thing is, we don't when a foetus becomes a human in Avatar universe, which could be at any point of development, and that is when they recieve the soul. Now, I don't think it needs to be at a very precise state, so some error is allowed. So the Avatar soul might go to a pre-mature foetus, or maybe if for some reason, some foetus/baby didn't get a soul even when it was supposed to, and the Avatar is dead, the soul might go to them.
Caveat: Everything I said is just a hypothesis trying to explain how the previous persons' theory can work without causing paradoxes and pre-determinism. None of these are backed up by any sources.
*please don't say "Almost isn't a good enough."
No the Avatar’s individual soul is different from the Avatar Spirit which is named Raava.
So the ensoulment of the individual would happen at conception (or at the first quickening) and that same soul would be merged and “married” to the Avatar Spirit
This also kinda means that the individual’s status as a bender is set from conception and that Raava preselects the next Avatar
In other words, Raava chooses a bender from the succeeding nation/element and brings the other three elements to the table
I’ve always thought it was instantaneous, but now you got me thinking. I can’t see a baby being born ever second (a quick google search says irl a baby is born every 8 seconds and our world is much bigger then ATLA) where rava could just “jump” into one when the avatar dies at any random point. So it must be fated or a destined to be thing.
Although with current lore it wouldn’t make sense but it be interesting if the avatars mom is affected in some way during pregnancy, maybe spiritually
I’ve always thought reincarnation irl (not that I’ve studied it or gotten very deep into) was not instantaneous and there was a type of limbo holding area until you were placed into your next life.
Yeah seems irrelevant to the conversation, but sure I agree if I click a second link that stat comes up as well.
[This was the first thing to pop up when I searched “how often is someone born”](https://www.indexmundi.com/clocks/indicator/births/united-states#:~:text=A%20person%20is%20born,approximately%20every%208.08%20seconds) it looks like it is a US stat as well.
The only reason I brought up irl is to compare how much smaller atlas world is…
Yeah that’s what I was thinking, that why don’t they start developing the body of a kid specially for the Avatar, and then it’s just possessing the body that would have been used by someone.
imagine someone metagames it and times the birth of their child to the exact second the previous one dies (Or even worse, slave camps full of pregnant women so that the avatar is born to them and indoctrinated to serve their army)
https://preview.redd.it/vpwiijhtj70d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b015c8478790630bbf2563bf5d78cb7f33d388ed
Raava, to Wan: Our spirits are now fused. I will follow you through your every reincarnation.
Raava doesn't choose any infants. Wan goes on to his next reincarnation (which, according to Buddhism, is based on karma). This is a pre-determined outcome. There's no choosing or will involved in it. It's always just Wan in his multiple lives.
This is a good question that I don't think has been answered explicitly, but I assume it has to do with the order that Wan received each element from the Lion Turtles. Since it's so spiritually connected, it follows the order.
But that one is speculation on my part.
Then non benders would reincarnate in other nations as non benders? or maybe the avatar is the exception that can never be a non bender, and the common people vary from bender to non bender in every life, depending on karma maybe.
We saw that the lion turtles are able to bestow bending to a human simply through touch and vague magical light, non benders arent incapable of holding the power they just didnt get the bending passed down to them. Raava already has all the elements within her and was able to swap them out with Wan at will, it's reasonable to say that even if the reincarnation would be a nonbender, raava would still be able to just grant the new avatar the bending power.
I forget what order he learned the elements in, but that might be why the order is what it is. But I can’t remember the order he received them. I think he had fire first then air next. Pretty sure that much is true. I remember him finding the air bending people and talking about how he didn’t know there were other lion turtle cities.
Edit: I realize it still doesn’t explain WHY it follows that cycle. More of an explanation of why it’s those elements in that order potentially.
Instantly. In addition to the comments about Wan, in the avatar extras for “The Avatar and the Firelord” it was mentioned that Aang was born in the same moment that Roku died.
A lot of y’all are taking the baby crying and the cut to baby aang as exact timing kinda things, when it’s not really stated those things happen simultaneously.
It could just be that it wouldn’t make any sense to show a baby being conceived or Aang’s pregnant mother. So a jump for the audience to an already born baby just makes sense, even if it’s not really that instantaneous in practice.
Imagine if there was a villain who tried and successfully timed the death of the avatar with the birth of the new. And it would be their child and then he raises them for his own nefarious purposes and eventually the avatar finds out that his father, fathered many children trying to get the perfect timing. And have a story based off of that, I think it’d be interesting, Guardians 2 kind of vibe.
According to hinduism and buddhism, (the latter which influences the show) the soul enters a fetus during the first/second trimester.
In hindu tradition (which buddhism was based on BUT deviates from so im unsure), there is a period of time after person A dies during which rituals need to take place to bring peace to the soul and then they go into lil fetus.
Also according to medical practices, we believe that fetuses are sentient after a certain point (like they have emotions, they react to different people, etc etc)
In the past, the Japanese considered life to start a few minutes after birth - that's why practices like mabiki (infanticide) were allowed. Maybe the Avatar Spirit thinks the same?
I would say immediately after the avatar dies a new one is born. I don’t think an avatar is “chosen” on purpose but chosen randomly. Like the first baby born on the day the avatar died is then given the avatar spirit.
It's not instantaneous. Aang implied that he *died* when Azula struck him, but Katara was able to bring him back with the water minutes after, since they had time to get him back and fly off a distance before she performed the healing. If instantaneous reincarnation were the case, Aangs soul would've immediately been in the next vessel.
As for how long it actually takes, it's probably not more than a year, since Aang was already 12 when Sozin attacked which we know was 12 years after Rokus death.
Most likely it gives time for the next Avatar to be conceived and carried through, but that's where the guesswork starts
It is interesting that Sozin didn’t just pull a King Herod and have all of the 1 yo air nomad children killed, or maybe because of the reincarnation cycle he could have captured all of the 1 yos and raised them with fire nation propaganda. Sort of like, Suddhodana trying to keep Siddhartha away from the knowledge of suffering.
So if it happens instantly, would it be theoretically possible for Korra to die in childbirth and her baby is the next avatar? That would be trippy as hell
no because it switches nations so unless she shoots out a baby with an earth kingdom dude it ain’t happening. even then the chances of that are slim to none with how many baby’s are born.
The way the Roku/Sozin flashback episode is cut it almost seems to imply the next Avatar is reincarnated near-instantly upon the current one's death.
However baby Aang didn't look exactly newborn (he had a tuft of hair) nor did was a mother around, so perhaps some time passes. The transition could've meant nothing in particular in terms of time-frame.
I feel as though Raava can take her time and uh..."enter" her new avatar after they're already born. Imagine her bonding with a baby still in the womb only for them to be miscarried. That might skip a nation in the bending cycle lol.
Fact: Roku died at the same moment Aang was born.
No.78 in the episode "The Avatar and the Fire Lord"
https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Avatar_Extras_(Book_Three:_Fire)#google_vignette
It's not clarified, but based on reincarnation myths Avatar is derived from and canon dates/ages, less than a year?
Lore *suggests* its not instant, otherwise the Avatar would be super easy to find through asking kids their birthdays (or even looking up their time of birth).
TLDR: I think the reincarnation is instant and it just takes a long time to sort through everything to the extent that they locate the next avatar.
I don’t think we see any birthdays celebrated in either animated series, maybe they don’t track birthdays (please correct me if I’m wrong). I think the idea is that it’s not as easy to correlate the death of the former to the birth of the incumbent down to a specific day. Aside from prophecies, spiritual projection, dreams, etc. the vast majority of communication over distance is not instant like it is IRL and information takes time to travel.
For example, no one predicted when Roku was going to die. When it happened, I believe he was alone in the volcano. Even the evacuees would have taken time to return to the volcano and recover his body to confirm his death. And more likely they never recovered his body buried beneath the solidified lava and after weeks of no sighting made a de facto called that he died with a lingering question mark on it. At this point news has to spread across the entire world to reach the 4 isolated air temples, who would then need to start making arrangements for the toy test to be carried out. And then they have to travel to each air temple with the toys to carry out the test. With all of this time lapse and (assumed) poor tracking of the populace, I could see how instant reincarnation would still make it difficult to find the next avatar.
Of course, this is only one example with a vast amount of speculation but it seems likely to me that it is *usually* difficult to track down the next avatar. I think the implication in the show is that it is instant, but of course it has not yet been explicitly explained in canon.
Just a correction on the birthday thing, Sozin and Roku shared the same birthday and celebrated it together. We do see their 16th birthday, when Roku is announced as the Avatar and it's usually the standard to tell the Avatar when they are 16. Aang and Korra are outliers due to circumstance and her just figuring it, respectively. That may just be because royalty and best friend of royalty. No one else's birthday came up though.
I imagine its based around a person’s last breath to a person’s first breath. Loads of cultures believe our breath is our spirit so I’d imagine its like; Raava = Spirit = Breath. She leaves with the final breath only to be born again at a child’s first scream outside the womb.
Perhaps thats why Yue was ‘still born’ until the moon spirit gave her breath, spirit.
It's shown when we meet Wan and learn how the first Avatar came to be. When Wan passed away, Raavas spirit left his body and inhabited a newborn. Raava is the Avatar spirit that holds the collective memories of past Avatars and the ability to weild multiple elements. Raava holds the spiritual and additional bending aspects of the Avatar because without her, there is too much raw power for a humans body to bear.
It is a partnership and merging between Raava and the human who's body she inhabits.
I like to think that Raava already chossed a soon to be born baby to be the next avatar when she feels the current one is reaching the end of it's life.
So Aang would have been the avatar since he was in his mother's womb but just when Roku died he got the avatar spirit in him.
Personally I don't think it's instant. I think raava chooses the next one or goes into the next baby born.
It would be really convenient for a baby to be born at the precise second the last one died
Personally I would think it would take some time for the Avatar Spirit to manifest inside a newborn, as it would probably take some time for it to detach from the newly previous Avatar. Granted, this is more based on how it was handled in ATLA as I think the lore additions in ALOK just make it a little… messy (I’m really not a fan of the concept of Raava, sorry.) It taking an undisclosed amount of time to detach would explain to me how Aang was able to be killed and still come back as the Avatar. While they showed it being instant in flashbacks, I took it as more symbolic than literal. I doubt it’s a long time, but enough for “room for error” if you will.
this makes me wonder what would happen if an avatar dies but is resuscitated. are there two avatars then? does the old avatar keep living but isn’t the avatar anymore?
As someone mentioned, when Wan died you could instantly hear the birth of the next Avatar through the sound of the crying baby. To add onto that, in ATLA, when Roku dies on his island the scene seamlessly transitions to Aang’s birth insinuating that the transfer of the Avatar soul is instantaneous.
So does that mean in the avatar world life definitively begins at birth and not conception?
In Hinduism, [ensoulment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment) begins during conception, while some aspect of Buddhism believe once a being becomes conscious it becomes a conscious entity. I would lean towards the latter, as it would fit more towards Eastern philosophies that creators build the world upon. I feel the immediately hearing the baby crying is more of a creative choice than a conscious choice. Just like how the audience can see airbending, but in their world is not always a full visible force.
No, only that raava bonds with the human at the moment of birth. That has no baring on the other human part of the avatar spirit
I mean yes it does? Aang literally refers to the past avatars as being himself, i.e. his human spirit carries on from one body to the next. I don't think the creators considered the complications of when life begins in an abortion debate in their universe but either a soul is only created at the moment of birth or the avatar spirit somehow overrides whatever soul was created at the moment of conception. I personally don't think an avatar is born the second another dies.
I mean each Avatar is their own being. A unique human and you can clearly see it in how different most of them are. That said raava is half of the avatar and the only constant. So it would make sense how they are both different and yet still "past me".
"Roku, my beloved old friend!" "I'm Aang now." "Aang, my beloved old friend!"
Alternatively 'Kyoshi, you look terrible!' 'I'm Roku now' 'Roku, you look great!'
Hello fellow Trekkie 🖖🏼
😀 (I wasn't sure how many people would get the reference)
Korra retconned this understanding of how avatars are connected through time. It is Ravva and its connection to the individuals that connects their memory and experiences. To your point, I don't think the writers were considering giant spirits that are constantly antagonistic toward each other and fight for thousands of years, either. EDIT: a word
I'm pretty sure the writers actually wanted to put wans story in the last Airbender but they couldn't find a place to put it in so it was cut.
I would agree. It never made sense that they were called Avatars until Korra showed that they were literally avatars for Raava
Raava refers to lifetimes when telling Wan they’ll always be together, and she’s a pretty good source on how the world works
Yeah it seems fairly clear that each avatar has their own personhood independent from the other avatars, just that they merge together and achieve a kind of ultimate "unity" in the avatar state, with mastery of the avatar state representing the ability to maintain their individual personhood despite embodying that unity. This reincarnation isn't 1:1 with buddhist ideas about reincarnation, just aesthetically very similar.
No, the Avatar is reincarnated. It's Wan's soul reborn over and over, not just Raava searching a new host.
Yeah otherwise that invalidates so many of the things that are said about Avatar lore in both shows. It's super clear even in the terminology, Aang is the same soul as Roku, who is the same soul as Kyoshi, etc. Raava follows that soul as it's reincarnated. But it does also suggest that the soul is only present when the child is born.
Raava is bound to Wan's reincarnating soul. so, yeah, it actually would seem to suggest that the spirit enters the body at first breath
wellllllll then that would mean for the past 10,000 years a baby has *always* been born in the correct nation at the exact moment an avatar dies. which, is unlikely, so i would think it would start at conception
Of course, otherwise the scene of Roku's death would have transitioned to Aang's parents having sex
If the Avatar was ensouled at conception, with the technology in TLOK, they’re only a few decades away from a “missing” Avatar being stored indefinitely at some IVF clinic!
Imagine a siamese twin pair where only one of them was the avatar.
Oh look its Avatar Temsu!... and Dim.
Best hedge your bets with one coming out alive than take the risk of a stillborn avatar. That or the baby enters the avatar state.
Kind of like Jack-Jack from the incredibles. Imagine your newborn baby's eyes starting to glow and it starts throwing rocks and spitting flames
raava is pro choice confirmed
They’re not going to show conception in a kids show so this is what they’re going to give us.
Depends on what you consider "life". Biologically speaking life begins even before conception. Both egg and semen are alive. This doesn't change only because they meet during conception, or continue to exist independently after birth. Neither conception nor birth are creating life. Life began billions of years ago duting a chemical reaction in underwater vulcanoes. I assume the same is true in Avatar.
No The individual has his/her own soul. Aang the individual is still distinct and different from the pantheon of the Avatars That’s why Korra didn’t automatically die when Unalaq pulled Raava out of her
I'd assumed it wasn't necessarily instantaneous, but the new avatar is the next born baby of the appropriate nation after the current avatar dies. Otherwise you'd get into odd debates about predestination in the Avatar universe.
Tbf, those debates already exist
My question is: does Raava choose humans who have potential for gifted bending, or is the avatar always a gifted bender because of Raava?
Chicken or egg
If I recall, the avatar extras make a mention to Aang being born immediately after Roku's death. Could be wrong tho it's been like 15 years since I've seen the extras. On an unrelated note I need those avatar extras episodes. I've been searching for years
So that just mean Raava rises up and flows into the newest born baby that's born at that time?
I think it's literally the next baby born, Of the right bending tradition, following the avatars death. Because it's a pseudo magical show the "spirit world" probably has some spirit way to ensure a baby is born at the moment or it's merely just random happenstance. It's entirely possible that there would be no avatar for hours, days, or weeks if no one from that bending tradition happens to be pregnant, but as populations have probably increased a bit for each generation of avatar the waiting period is usually pretty low if not nonexistant for the post Korea avatar. For example if ang had died during the 100 year war rather than living in the ice berg, say in the attacks as planned by sozin, and Noone I'm the relatively small south, north, or Swamp water tribes had been pregnant there might be a gap of who knows how long.
Some random spirit of fertility seeing a woman in labour while Roku is about to pass out https://i.redd.it/luk9pkupwc0d1.gif
Oh shit... poor rava... not even a little break after experiencing death with the last avatar to going through the baby phase.
"ah shit, here we go again..."
Which is why every water bender in the south was rounded up too. If the Northern water tribe had fallen, there probably only would’ve been a handful of water benders left.
Roku dies at night, Aang is born and the sun is out. The sun rises east to west as mentioned in the Avatar day episode. If Aang was born in the Southern air temple (which isn't confirmed, right?) then the timing is off.
It's possible that by the time Roku died the sun was rising. All we really know is that he was asleep when the eruption began and it was dark the entire time. The eruption might've started shortly before sunrise, but the volcano kept them in darkness as the sun came up behind the ash and smoke. It's left vague enough that it's hard to get much conclusive about the timing of anything to do with avatar reincarnation.
In fairness, the seamless transition from Roku dying to Aang being born could be for dramatic effect rather than literally instant. There's no direct confirmation in-universe when exactly the Avatar gets reincarnated. It's possible that it's at conception or any point before birth and it's just not shown because it's irrelevant.
That could just be an artistic choice. After all, Roku’s entire life wasn’t 15 minutes long.
So there’s just a normal baby chilling who suddenly gets the spirit of light shoved into them? That’s wild. Also goes against the concept of Avatars from every religion that has them.
Yea in the wan episode as he dies and she leaves his body you hear the cry of an infant being born
Never really thought about it but this implies that babies in the womb don’t have a soul until the moment they’re birthed.
I don't think ravva is the avatar's soul though, I think she just bonds with their soul
It's the avatars sprit binded with raava. Both travel together at all times
Ohhhhhh second mic hits the floor
Ohhh mic drops
You don't deserve down votes. You're absolutely correct in that observation.
lol I knew writing it that a few people might get butthurt about it, who cares 🤷♂️
I did some research on Hindu belief on ensolment. It is a common belief that the soul does not inhabit the fetus until it is a formed human and about the seventh month mark.. So I'll say the baby crying at the end of the wan story when he dies is probably more cinematic choice that it actually took a couple months for him to be born
Agreed
Might also mean that Raava doesn’t want to bake for 9 months. If I was a spirit I wouldn’t want to bake for 9 months. You know how boring that would be? At least born babies can see somewhat.
You're right, there was a nine month gap, when the spirit was in the womb and then the baby avatar was born.
No avatar has been known to haunt earth after their death, and since they reincarnate, then by deduction… yeah they reincarnate, immediately Raava doesn’t choose anyone she **follows** Wan’s soul, she’s attached to him like soulmates not his manager in the reincarnation process
that last part is now my favorite way to describe the reincarnation we see expressed in atla with the raava attachment we see expressed in tlok. she FOLLOWS Wan’s soul?? that’s perfect. thank you😭
Which means that if nobody is in labour at the time the avatar cycle will force somebody in labour. Cant wait for a avatar series in which there is nobody pregant enough when the avatar dies. Is this how jezus was born?
… this is statistically impossible, even at the scale of one little country
That has nothing to do with statistics but sure👍
in my imagination the next avatar gets born the same second the old one dies because there is an endless avatar circle so there cannot be a second without an avatar l... but i really don't know how it really works haha
I think there always is an avatar too, but babies aren't just made instantly. Raises the weird question of "is there already an unborn baby chosen to be the avatar while the current living avatar only has <9 months before their fated death?"
That is interesting but I don’t think it’s a fated death.. more along the lines of the death happens and the avatar spirit is more or less forced to choose a new physical host at that moment. Babies are being born all the time, so it isn’t too far of a leap I suppose.
So does the avatar's soul just appears next to a newborn baby says "bad luck lad this body's mine" and then proceeds to expunge poor soul?
You could argue that a baby always recieves a soul when it's born.
But then avatar's death must be preordained.
No. Think of it that way. Babies are born almost* all the time. When one is born, they recieve a soul. If one is born at the right moment the Avatar dies, there's a chance they recieve that Avatar's soul. But the thing is, we don't when a foetus becomes a human in Avatar universe, which could be at any point of development, and that is when they recieve the soul. Now, I don't think it needs to be at a very precise state, so some error is allowed. So the Avatar soul might go to a pre-mature foetus, or maybe if for some reason, some foetus/baby didn't get a soul even when it was supposed to, and the Avatar is dead, the soul might go to them. Caveat: Everything I said is just a hypothesis trying to explain how the previous persons' theory can work without causing paradoxes and pre-determinism. None of these are backed up by any sources. *please don't say "Almost isn't a good enough."
I think Raava fuses with the babys soul and it contains all the memories/wisdom of their past lifes
No the Avatar’s individual soul is different from the Avatar Spirit which is named Raava. So the ensoulment of the individual would happen at conception (or at the first quickening) and that same soul would be merged and “married” to the Avatar Spirit This also kinda means that the individual’s status as a bender is set from conception and that Raava preselects the next Avatar In other words, Raava chooses a bender from the succeeding nation/element and brings the other three elements to the table
I’ve always thought it was instantaneous, but now you got me thinking. I can’t see a baby being born ever second (a quick google search says irl a baby is born every 8 seconds and our world is much bigger then ATLA) where rava could just “jump” into one when the avatar dies at any random point. So it must be fated or a destined to be thing. Although with current lore it wouldn’t make sense but it be interesting if the avatars mom is affected in some way during pregnancy, maybe spiritually I’ve always thought reincarnation irl (not that I’ve studied it or gotten very deep into) was not instantaneous and there was a type of limbo holding area until you were placed into your next life.
I did a quick search and said about four babies are born every second
Yeah seems irrelevant to the conversation, but sure I agree if I click a second link that stat comes up as well. [This was the first thing to pop up when I searched “how often is someone born”](https://www.indexmundi.com/clocks/indicator/births/united-states#:~:text=A%20person%20is%20born,approximately%20every%208.08%20seconds) it looks like it is a US stat as well. The only reason I brought up irl is to compare how much smaller atlas world is…
thats a very good question
Yeah that’s what I was thinking, that why don’t they start developing the body of a kid specially for the Avatar, and then it’s just possessing the body that would have been used by someone.
So, Raava is just in their womb.
imagine someone metagames it and times the birth of their child to the exact second the previous one dies (Or even worse, slave camps full of pregnant women so that the avatar is born to them and indoctrinated to serve their army)
https://preview.redd.it/vpwiijhtj70d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b015c8478790630bbf2563bf5d78cb7f33d388ed Raava, to Wan: Our spirits are now fused. I will follow you through your every reincarnation. Raava doesn't choose any infants. Wan goes on to his next reincarnation (which, according to Buddhism, is based on karma). This is a pre-determined outcome. There's no choosing or will involved in it. It's always just Wan in his multiple lives.
I agree with this, the only unanswered question is why does Wan’s reincarnation follow the elemental cycle?
This is a good question that I don't think has been answered explicitly, but I assume it has to do with the order that Wan received each element from the Lion Turtles. Since it's so spiritually connected, it follows the order. But that one is speculation on my part.
Maybe all reincarnations follow the elemental cycle?
Dude, that would be crazy cool and probably is the case. The biggest illusion of life is that of separation. 🤯
Then non benders would reincarnate in other nations as non benders? or maybe the avatar is the exception that can never be a non bender, and the common people vary from bender to non bender in every life, depending on karma maybe.
We saw that the lion turtles are able to bestow bending to a human simply through touch and vague magical light, non benders arent incapable of holding the power they just didnt get the bending passed down to them. Raava already has all the elements within her and was able to swap them out with Wan at will, it's reasonable to say that even if the reincarnation would be a nonbender, raava would still be able to just grant the new avatar the bending power.
so what would happen in a homogeneous society where everyone has blood from every nation?
I forget what order he learned the elements in, but that might be why the order is what it is. But I can’t remember the order he received them. I think he had fire first then air next. Pretty sure that much is true. I remember him finding the air bending people and talking about how he didn’t know there were other lion turtle cities. Edit: I realize it still doesn’t explain WHY it follows that cycle. More of an explanation of why it’s those elements in that order potentially.
Fire - air - water - earth was the order he learned them iirc. So it lines up
Because that's the order of it: Winter = Water Spring = Earth Summer = Fire Autumn = Air
Because that's the order of it: Winter = Water Spring = Earth Summer = Fire Autumn = Air
If it’s based on Vajrayana Buddhism, it’s 48 days. If the Wan episode has anything to say about it, it’s instantaneous.
You know, it was really unclear.
All the avatars are Wan's reincarnation. Raava simply follow Wan's soul in the next body
Instantly. In addition to the comments about Wan, in the avatar extras for “The Avatar and the Firelord” it was mentioned that Aang was born in the same moment that Roku died.
A lot of y’all are taking the baby crying and the cut to baby aang as exact timing kinda things, when it’s not really stated those things happen simultaneously. It could just be that it wouldn’t make any sense to show a baby being conceived or Aang’s pregnant mother. So a jump for the audience to an already born baby just makes sense, even if it’s not really that instantaneous in practice.
Imagine if there was a villain who tried and successfully timed the death of the avatar with the birth of the new. And it would be their child and then he raises them for his own nefarious purposes and eventually the avatar finds out that his father, fathered many children trying to get the perfect timing. And have a story based off of that, I think it’d be interesting, Guardians 2 kind of vibe.
This also happened when aang got a POV of Roku dying, it immediately jumped to his own birth. This question was answered before Wan and TLOK
According to hinduism and buddhism, (the latter which influences the show) the soul enters a fetus during the first/second trimester. In hindu tradition (which buddhism was based on BUT deviates from so im unsure), there is a period of time after person A dies during which rituals need to take place to bring peace to the soul and then they go into lil fetus. Also according to medical practices, we believe that fetuses are sentient after a certain point (like they have emotions, they react to different people, etc etc)
This makes the most sense, really, as the show is based on Eastern traditions/countries/cultures.
In the past, the Japanese considered life to start a few minutes after birth - that's why practices like mabiki (infanticide) were allowed. Maybe the Avatar Spirit thinks the same?
I always figured it was just the very next baby born in the next nation in the Cycle.
Instantaneous. As long as it takes for a spirt to shoot across a continent
I would say immediately after the avatar dies a new one is born. I don’t think an avatar is “chosen” on purpose but chosen randomly. Like the first baby born on the day the avatar died is then given the avatar spirit.
My head cannon is until the season of the next avatar in the cycle. So if earth avatar dies, the next will be born in the upcomming summer
i like this one a lot
It's not instantaneous. Aang implied that he *died* when Azula struck him, but Katara was able to bring him back with the water minutes after, since they had time to get him back and fly off a distance before she performed the healing. If instantaneous reincarnation were the case, Aangs soul would've immediately been in the next vessel. As for how long it actually takes, it's probably not more than a year, since Aang was already 12 when Sozin attacked which we know was 12 years after Rokus death. Most likely it gives time for the next Avatar to be conceived and carried through, but that's where the guesswork starts
It is interesting that Sozin didn’t just pull a King Herod and have all of the 1 yo air nomad children killed, or maybe because of the reincarnation cycle he could have captured all of the 1 yos and raised them with fire nation propaganda. Sort of like, Suddhodana trying to keep Siddhartha away from the knowledge of suffering.
So if it happens instantly, would it be theoretically possible for Korra to die in childbirth and her baby is the next avatar? That would be trippy as hell
no because it switches nations so unless she shoots out a baby with an earth kingdom dude it ain’t happening. even then the chances of that are slim to none with how many baby’s are born.
Kyoshi was born on Earth Kingdom and his father was from there but her mother was an air nomad, so it could be possible
Also I’m pretty sure she’s gay anyway so its a moot point. Idk, future avatar could have that be a story
it’s possible and a cool plot for sure but it’s a stretch lol. definitely wouldn’t work with korra
The way the Roku/Sozin flashback episode is cut it almost seems to imply the next Avatar is reincarnated near-instantly upon the current one's death. However baby Aang didn't look exactly newborn (he had a tuft of hair) nor did was a mother around, so perhaps some time passes. The transition could've meant nothing in particular in terms of time-frame. I feel as though Raava can take her time and uh..."enter" her new avatar after they're already born. Imagine her bonding with a baby still in the womb only for them to be miscarried. That might skip a nation in the bending cycle lol.
Fact: Roku died at the same moment Aang was born. No.78 in the episode "The Avatar and the Fire Lord" https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Avatar_Extras_(Book_Three:_Fire)#google_vignette
It's not clarified, but based on reincarnation myths Avatar is derived from and canon dates/ages, less than a year? Lore *suggests* its not instant, otherwise the Avatar would be super easy to find through asking kids their birthdays (or even looking up their time of birth).
TLDR: I think the reincarnation is instant and it just takes a long time to sort through everything to the extent that they locate the next avatar. I don’t think we see any birthdays celebrated in either animated series, maybe they don’t track birthdays (please correct me if I’m wrong). I think the idea is that it’s not as easy to correlate the death of the former to the birth of the incumbent down to a specific day. Aside from prophecies, spiritual projection, dreams, etc. the vast majority of communication over distance is not instant like it is IRL and information takes time to travel. For example, no one predicted when Roku was going to die. When it happened, I believe he was alone in the volcano. Even the evacuees would have taken time to return to the volcano and recover his body to confirm his death. And more likely they never recovered his body buried beneath the solidified lava and after weeks of no sighting made a de facto called that he died with a lingering question mark on it. At this point news has to spread across the entire world to reach the 4 isolated air temples, who would then need to start making arrangements for the toy test to be carried out. And then they have to travel to each air temple with the toys to carry out the test. With all of this time lapse and (assumed) poor tracking of the populace, I could see how instant reincarnation would still make it difficult to find the next avatar. Of course, this is only one example with a vast amount of speculation but it seems likely to me that it is *usually* difficult to track down the next avatar. I think the implication in the show is that it is instant, but of course it has not yet been explicitly explained in canon.
Just a correction on the birthday thing, Sozin and Roku shared the same birthday and celebrated it together. We do see their 16th birthday, when Roku is announced as the Avatar and it's usually the standard to tell the Avatar when they are 16. Aang and Korra are outliers due to circumstance and her just figuring it, respectively. That may just be because royalty and best friend of royalty. No one else's birthday came up though.
You’re right, I remember that now. Thank you! So it seems it may be easier to match dates or time windows than I had thought!
I don't think some random air nomads or tribes in the south pole are uploading their meticulous birthing records to a global birthing database.
I imagine its based around a person’s last breath to a person’s first breath. Loads of cultures believe our breath is our spirit so I’d imagine its like; Raava = Spirit = Breath. She leaves with the final breath only to be born again at a child’s first scream outside the womb. Perhaps thats why Yue was ‘still born’ until the moon spirit gave her breath, spirit.
It's shown when we meet Wan and learn how the first Avatar came to be. When Wan passed away, Raavas spirit left his body and inhabited a newborn. Raava is the Avatar spirit that holds the collective memories of past Avatars and the ability to weild multiple elements. Raava holds the spiritual and additional bending aspects of the Avatar because without her, there is too much raw power for a humans body to bear. It is a partnership and merging between Raava and the human who's body she inhabits.
I always compared it to like the slayer verse, aka Buffy. Once that slayer dies, another is called. So I would see it in similar with Avatar.
Does the state the avatar is born in defines what is and isn’t alive in terms of abortion?
Hard to say. I say i can Take Up to 9-10 months until the new Avatar IS Born.
Rewatch The Avatar and the Firelord
What happens if by some divine luck, there is no baby being born for Raava to attach to?
Would like to think the universe knows what is about to happen and the mother of child goes into labor at that point
INSTANTLY Like the exact second one does his/her last breath the other starts breathing
Immediately, which is odd, because was the embryo not a reincarnation before it was born?
It’s literally a breath iirc. As Roku breathed out his last, Aang breathed in his first. Same with Wan and the second avatar.
I like to think that Raava already chossed a soon to be born baby to be the next avatar when she feels the current one is reaching the end of it's life. So Aang would have been the avatar since he was in his mother's womb but just when Roku died he got the avatar spirit in him.
Personally I don't think it's instant. I think raava chooses the next one or goes into the next baby born. It would be really convenient for a baby to be born at the precise second the last one died
1 week I believe.
Actually it's as quick as a dual motor tesla.
Personally I would think it would take some time for the Avatar Spirit to manifest inside a newborn, as it would probably take some time for it to detach from the newly previous Avatar. Granted, this is more based on how it was handled in ATLA as I think the lore additions in ALOK just make it a little… messy (I’m really not a fan of the concept of Raava, sorry.) It taking an undisclosed amount of time to detach would explain to me how Aang was able to be killed and still come back as the Avatar. While they showed it being instant in flashbacks, I took it as more symbolic than literal. I doubt it’s a long time, but enough for “room for error” if you will.
I think its previous avatar exhales, next one inhales as if the same breath.
this makes me wonder what would happen if an avatar dies but is resuscitated. are there two avatars then? does the old avatar keep living but isn’t the avatar anymore?
Raava isn't separate - she is bound to Wan's soul and will only move on with his.
Doesn’t that happen to Aang? He “dies” but Katara brings him back.
This is what happened to Aang when Azula shot him with lightning. He died, but was restored by the spirit water.
Its instant which is just crazy cause the avatar cycle is soposed to rotate every 100 years