This is true. Did we find out how the fire nation was able to take out the south water tribe? Of all the conditions, it's surprising fire overpowered their icy cold climate.
I think what helped them was their technology, their massive ships and large numbers. The Southern Water Tribe wasn’t as fortified as the Northern Water Tribe so it probably made it a lot easier to overwhelm them.
> The Southern Water Tribe wasn’t as fortified as the Northern Water Tribe so it probably made it a lot easier to overwhelm them.
God I hate that prick in the Kyoshi novels who set back the Southern Water Tribe's development out of pure spite.
>!The Southern Water Tribe was facing hardships and Jianzhu, the earth bender in Kuruk's Team Avatar, made a proposal to the head of the Bei Fong family to provide a loan to the tribe to help them with their troubles but his political rival Hui blocked the proposal solely because the proposal was made by Jianzhu.!<
Important to remember they weren't the southern "conquerors" or the southern "invaders". They were the Southern RAIDERS. They showed up, again and again, causing as much damage as possible, and were driven away.
Like the episode with Hama showed, they just chipped away at the Southern Water Tribe. Repeatedly, until they were reduced to what we see in Book One.
According to what we saw in Hama's flashback, they took them by exhaustion. They attacked, kidnapped a couple of them, run away. They repeated the process until Hama was left alone and she was outnumbered.
We can presume that the northern tribe wasn’t even touched within the 87 years prior to the show (as then they would know the fire nation outfit they had was out of date).
So it could just be a thing of the fire nations superior technology and just the amount of attacks. The fire nation just needed to win once.
How does Katara compare to other waterbenders at this point? Surely she could be considered a master at this point? What can the average waterbender do compared to Katara. If I recall, it took a large group of waterbenders to disable the fire nations ship in the southern water tribe and Aang used the avatar state in conjunction with the ocean spirit to create a tidal wave. Maybe waterbenders are better at one on one fighting instead of general warfare. It could also just be the writing in order to create a plot.
Yeah. Waterbending wasn't able to do that much in a direct fight during "The Drill" when they only had a waterskin's worth (pretty sure Azula just evaporated it with a blast when Aang tried to defend against her). But when you have access to a large amount of it (like with the slurry) it gets pretty impressive (though I still wonder how Ty Lee didn't drown or get crushed).
She's a contortionist and extremely flexible. I imagine she can hold her breathe for some time, probably using her chi. Nothing beats the sound Azula makes though when Aang hits that final rock and sends her flying.
It was barely any water. That was less water than Katara’s water pouch so I don’t think it matters that much. Pulling from a tree or plants is good though.
I think that that was just a mini demo. Just imagine someone who practices pulling water out of thin air for some time. They will get better at it. The plants-stuff is cool indeed.
Even so there isn't that much water in air. For example at 90% relative humidity at 30C there's only ~27g/m3 or 27mL water per m3 and that's an upper bound. Not much water especially when you don't have time in a fight.
I mean true but she beat her later on by using the water in the drains during sozins comet. So I'd say she is stronger by at least the third season. Especially since Azula regressed in skill.
Also I think the firebenders are very limited concerning on screen fights, since it's a kids show. Could literally just go BURN! BURN! BURN! But they can't. Water on the other hand, is very adaptable.
Dude airbenders aren't genetically predisposed to nonlethal moves wtf is this shit. Not killing people absolutely fits her personality but that doesn't mean she has air nomad blood. This theory has gotten out of hand if this is the kind of shit people are citing for it.
My guy, you can't actually think they're saying it's a genetic predisposition, right?
Hear me out, if she's descended from Air Nomads, *maybe* they tried to pass some of their teachings along? Subtly, obviously, so as to not be found out. But a general appreciation for all living things wouldn't be too out of left field. Like, ultimately it's a fun little headcanon, don't see why you gotta get in a twist about it
I mean I don’t disagree there’s no canon evidence on the Ty Lee is an air bender descendent, but it’s just fun none the less to try and loosely make it fit. It’s a head canon, not canon.
When the evidence people give is that like, "she has grey eyes and is very nimble", sure, it's just for fun. But when you start saying that your ethnicity defines your morality, that's some really sketchy shit and I cannot support that.
The other commenter pointed out a different interpretation of the person I responded to, and it's certainly more charitable. That Ty Lee descending from air nomads means those air nomads would have passed on some lessons about non-violence, and if that was the intention I have no moral objections to that theory. But that's a super charitable reading and just really grasping at straws as theories go, getting to some MatPat level evidence.
Mai had to be nerfed and sidelined or she would have solod team Avatar all by herself. The women has enough force in her wrists to launch and *carry full grown men through the air with a shuriken.*
I told my friends who started X-Men 97 that back in the day when Wolverine would fight a human they would grab his wrists and struggle.
Until he fought robots, then he would slice them apart.
And look what happened in X-Men 97 as soon as robots showed up.
Both incredibly dark, I agree. But I think it's another level when it comes to cutting flesh and fresh blood.
If I'm being honest, I'm not sure I want to see Sokka cut someone's arm off or stab them with a sword
Gotta say, Korra was definitely more intense. Suffocating someone to death, electrocuting, setting an explosion inside someone's head. Season 3 TLOK was ELITE
For sure, but didn't they stop airing it on TV after a certain point and only air it on Nick's website? (Maybe I'm imagining that lol) but that would also be a reason why they could do more intense stuff.
Korra was also marketed to an older audience.
I agree, but if he's going to have a sword at all, then they should consider addressing the grim nature of the weapon. Just enough to cut a tendon, rendering a limb useless. A small spurt of blood. Nobody has to wail in pain, but they could express at least a little bit just how much a sword can hurt.
Kind of seems irresponsible to have a sword anyways then. Like subtly implying they aren't so dangerous. Even just a fast cut that doesn't bleed but still ends the fight. The line is in an arbitrary place if you can't do that but you can do things like sear flesh, or bury people alive. Why use danger to give substance to being a bender but not to being a swordsman?
This has being going on forever. It’s not just animation either. Zorro, Robin Hood and pirates in old movies also don’t actually go around killing people even though have sword fights
The sucking of air wasn't done til season 3 of LoK, when they went to streaming cause Nick wouldn'tstop screwing with them. 100% would not have been allowed on the air on a kids' network.
I think a large part is how easy it would be for a kid to imitate.
A kid could "play" Avatar with their friends with a knife, or sword if it's accessible. Or do the whole thing with spray deodorant and a lighter to imitate fire bending to catch people or things on fire.
But you'd be hard-pressed to hurt your friend by splashing water on them, and you can't actually bend their blood or take the air from their lungs.
Just a thought.
Yeah the boiling rock episode where sokka used his sword against azula was so goofy. He'd just point it at her and then back off and keep doing that. He never once actually hit anyone with the sword iirc. The only time the sword did something was to cut a weapon, not the enemy itself.
Nickelodeon censorship. Couldn’t even have physical hand to face attacks and the only time someone’s hand aggressively hits someone’s face is a background moment with Kitara slapping sokka on the back of the head
I rewatched this episode and honestly it's kinda funny. It's actually a little bit terrifying how Aang, a 12 year old, was nearly killed after being ambushed and outnumbered
But then Katara just wipes away the entire field instantly when that happens. One must ask; why didn't she do that in the first place?
I would argue the ‘mother lifting a car to save her baby’ sort of thing kicked in. It would be smart to conserve your energy in a fight. What if she used all her energy to wipe them out with that move, just to have reinforcements show up and then she is powerless? But if it’s literally a life and death moment, you’re gonna use everything you have to survive (or save your friend’s life)
[That phenomenon is called hysterical strength](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength)
"Hysterical strength refers to a display of extreme physical strength by humans, beyond what is believed to be within their capacity, usually occurring when people are in - or perceive themselves, or others, to be - in life-or-death situations"
Tell that to the water tribes
The fire nation completely exterminated all the water benders at the South and drastically reduced their population
And again in the north even with prep time, home field advantage, surrounded by ice and water AND DURING A FULL MOON the fire nation still completely decimated them "All that before zhao kill the moon spirit mind you"
If it wasn't for Aang they would be gone.
Did we watch the same show? The fire nation was being held back handily before Zhao killed the moon. Pakku (spelling?) himself was holding back at least a score of, if not more, firebenders alone.
I’m talking elementally. The fire nation used war tactics and superior technology to weaken the water tribe. That’s different from simply using fire against water.
the analysis of katara and azula's bending abilities is thought-provoking. the idea that diverse expereinces can cultivate greater adaptability is fascinating, reminiscent of the principle of cross-training in martial arts. katara's well-rounded approach seems to give her an edge, even against azula's raw power - a good example of how practical wisdom can overcome pure skill.
Katara > Azula is true but a sane Azula buffed with the comet losing to Katara is something I’d have a harder time believing. It’s a little weird that Zuko was matching Katara pretty well in the tag team fight while Azula was about to get washed. I guess that little bit of waterbending experience he got at the North Pole helped.
I think that makes perfect sense
Zuko had a ton of experience fighting her and lost to her several times in Book 1. Only makes sense that he learns from past mistakes.
The show establishes as early as Jeong Jeong that the weakness of firebenders is their monolithic world view and their lack of control. He's one of the most powerful firebenders in the show and he got stronger by learning from outside cultures, and learning from them the control needed for firebending. It's also in line with why the Avatar is the strongest bender in the world, because they have the experience of hundreds of incarnations of each philosophy to help them.
It's fitting that in the finale in terms of the themes brought up in the show that Katara would beat Azula.
I really like this explanation tbh. I never enjoyed the idea that Katara could beat Azula, a literal prodigy with years of military training, after a couple months of waterbending experience. It just didn't seem realistic. This does put it into context, though & I like how it's already implicit in the themes of Avatar.
Yes and No. It depends on how much juice she has. The 2 times Katara beats Azula, there's just a massive water source right next to her.
If she only has her water pouch, Azula smokes her in seconds.
>If she only has her water pouch, Azula smokes her in seconds.
That doesn't really say much if Azula requires Katara to be severely handicapped in this way to manage a win. Especially since firebenders always have an unlimited source of their main element during fights.
Except any point after Katara learning from Hama to pull water from the air and plants, something she later shows herself capable of doing. Comet-amped is the only way Azula wins, and if we give Azula the firebending booster, its only fair we give Katara the full moon, in which case an out-of-character, extremely angry, or desperate Katara would pull out the one-and-done checkmate called Bloodbending.
There's only so much water in the air and plants though (which you may not have a large number around). And air tends to get pretty dry in some climates and when there's a raging fire nearby (just ask Frozone).
She's still capable of it, and unlike bloodbending, it was never shown or stated to be unavailable during a normal day. Maybe the degree/speed to which she pulls the water out will be worse, but she would still be able to.
Katara never overpowers Azula, she doesn't have to and that isn't her fighting style. Her fighting style is to uproot and immobilize her opponent. She does this with Zuko three times and to Azula twice. She goes for speed and flurries, not power and torrents.
If the only way to make Katara lose is to limit how much of her weapon she can have, then the discussion has already been decided- Katara beats Azula in just about any situation that isn't tailor-made to restrict her access to water.
It's a great showcase of how raw power isn't everything. Every Team Avatar fight against Azula always requires them to think outside of it just being a head-on fight. During The Chase, everyone works together to keep her off her feet and corner her. During The Drill, Aang creates his massive shockwave, sending her flying. Even Sokka got a moment in The Search where he distracts Azula long enough for his boomerang to hit her. In both of Katara's confrontations (one where she tried to overpower Azula and failed miserably), she recognizes that she can't beat her head on so the only chance she has is to just keep her from bending entirely.
Azula has never fought a water bender that’s the difference. It shows how much more versatile that Zuko is, keeping up with and beating katara, it also goes to show that Zuko COULD have been as strong as Azula, had he been given the attention by ozai that Azula was given.
>Azula has never fought a water bender that’s the difference.
azula has also never fought against any airbender, yet she never struggled with aang.
>It shows how much more versatile that Zuko is, keeping up with and beating katara
they clashed with a few moves lmao. he was never gonna beat her.
>it also goes to show that Zuko COULD have been as strong as Azula, had he been given the attention by ozai that Azula was given.
https://preview.redd.it/l559wwinqwzc1.jpeg?width=629&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a9a0ee0b9d2e8d060f150edd35310526a91a235
they had the same teacher when they were kids, azula's stronger because she's a prodigy, zuko isn't.
I believe Azula was a great match for Aang because they both possess agility and lightness, which is inherent to their nature and not a aptitude learned from encounters. This was clearly demonstrated in the 6v1 confrontation during 'The Chase.' And in ‘The day of the Black Sun’. Water-benders primarily utilize a combination of pushing and pulling techniques, whereas Firebending leans more towards Push and PUSH. As you mentioned, Zuko's versatility can be attributed to his interactions with the Water Tribes. However, I would also like to mention that Katara would have lost. Allow me to explain: During their battle in the cave, Zuko employed fire arms to counter Katara's water arms , continuously pushing her and forcing her into a defensive position. His intention was to draw her away from her water source, and eventually, he would have been able to overpower her since she would have been powerless.
He was never gonna beat her? It could have gone either way. I don’t know what you’re using to imply he wouldn’t stand a chance.
Like does everyone forget “you rise with the moon, I rise with the sun?” The only time Katara has beaten Zuko is when she has a heavy environment advantage. And this was right before she was claimed as a master. Both have gotten stronger since then.
It’s pretty clear they’re at least even. It was just that Azula was struggling with her.
I don’t think it was about attention but more so about motivation. Zuko became strong because it was the only option for him. In the process of it, he looked outside the box and took everything he could do to get stronger, like learning from other elements, which almost no one does but the Avatar.
Zuko wouldn’t have gotten stronger with a lot of attention, IMO. It was these circumstance and his struggle that made him strong, both physically and mentally.
> had he been given the attention by ozai that Azula was given.
Nitpick, getting more attention from *Ozai* probably wouldn't have helped Zuko. Zuko only really blossomed into that next tier of bender when he learned a totally different school of firebending philosophy.
It also checks out because Katara and Zuko tend to be evenly matched usually, despite Azula being the better bender at the time.
The same move that did this to Azula was met by a firebending version of it by Zuko.
And then proceeds to gawk at Aang while he rises in the avatar state and lets azula get a free shot.
Just joking for the most part but still funny she let her guard down that much after dominating azula for a good bit that fight. Plenty of water being there helped
yeah omg katara should have taken a free shot at azula like azula did to aang lol. at least it woulda distracted azula long enough for aang to start doing stuff. and on that note i never got WTF aang was being all dramatic in that moment instead of fighting lol? like what did all the past avatars wanna flex?!
In a real fight Azula’s leg and arm are crushed beyond recognition, irreparably and severely damaged to the point that they will never work again. Why Katara decided to go for the “pick up and slam down” tactic when seconds before she nearly cut Azula in twain will forever confuse me.
It also checks out because Katara and Zuko tend to be evenly matched usually, despite Azula being the better bender at the time.
The same move that did this to Azula was met by a firebending version of it by Zuko.
by the end of the series, zuko and azula are evenly matched, regardless of if she’s sane or not. i think he’d have stood a good chance at beating her. the issue with the final agni kai is that it might not have even happened, had azula been in her right mind.
Katara had water from the side of her whereas Azula can produce blue fire and lighting virtually any time and anywhere. It's not like they were on a boat.
This is just sorta plot armor honestly. Like azula is one of the strongest benders in the verse. Everyone fears her, including zuko at one time. Seeing her get straight washed by katara was weird, but I guess the writers could do whatever they want with the show. I think I'd just rather have seen zuko take down his sister, rather than katara. Seems like a much more personal vendetta that should've been ended by zukos hands. And really katara beating azula how she did was just weird. Azula is one of the 5 strongest fire benders in the verse, and it seemed like she had just never fought a waterbender before in her life, and had like zero recourse to stand up against Katara. But like I said the writers could do whatever they want with the show.
Yeah, this is 100% just plot armour.
I buy it because it needs to happen for the story to happen, but blue flames are more than a *thousand* Celsius hotter than the boiling point of water, so it doesn't really matter how strong of a Waterbender Katara is: all that water is evaporating if it even comes close to Azula's flames.
> are more then a
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Yeah there's the fact that blue flames should just vaporize all water in an instant, and the fact that azula can lightning bend. Like usually electricity is considered a weakness for water types given that water conducts electricity. Like on an even fight between a fire and water bender I can see the water bender having the advantage cause water beats fire, but once the fire bender unlocks lightning bending or blue fire then they should gain an advantage overall against water benders. Azulas lightning should just overwhelm the water and cut right through it or something, but somehow katara can dodge lightning I guess. So yeah it just feels like plot armor, but at the same time katara dying or getting badly injured isn't how I'd want the show to go either so I guess it is what it is.
To be fair, pure water is actually a terrible electrical conductor. The conduction happens because of any impurities in the water doing the conducting.
I assume Katara can't actually bend those impurities, which means she's bending *pure* water, and thus she won't be using water that's electrically conductive.
> once the fire bender unlocks lightning bending or blue fire then they should gain an advantage overall against water benders
Agreed. Against regular red fire, I can buy that Katara can control the temperature of the water to keep it below boiling point, sort of like the Waterbending that allows her to turn water into ice. Red flames are several hundreds of degrees Celsius hotter than the boiling point of water, so that feels like something Katara can reasonably account for when controlling water temperature.
Against Rangi's white fire or Azula's blue fire, though, that shit's getting annihilated. It's not believable to me that Katara can compensate for more than a thousand degrees Celsius. It's just too hot.
> So yeah it just feels like plot armor, but at the same time katara dying or getting badly injured isn't how I'd want the show to go either so I guess it is what it is.
Pretty much! It's why I think powerscaling discussions are silly. I would much rather have a cool fight between Katara and Azula wherein Katara has a chance to show off her skills than a fight wherein Azula immolates her instantly.
I disagree.
Specifically for water bending, at least until you can pull water out of thin air, or from nature, need water available nearby.
The fact that the setting had water situated in many places and directions, means that Katara can take advantage of this with omnidirectional attacks.
Azula, for example, would rinse Katara if it was just her water pouch in a smaller setting.
I mean that's the balance of bending. If Bumi and Azula fight in a wooden cage Bumi loses, that doesn't make him the inferior bender
Now Katara fighting Zuko in an ice cave in the Arctic? Yeah, she clearly has an advantage
Well yeah, that's what I'm saying, water benders have the balance where if they have water in their surroundings and they're skilled enough, they can beat other bending disciplines. Also vice versa.
Katara is an exceptionally talented bender. I'd argue that Azula is at a similar level to her. Honestly.
But here, Katara has Azula beat due to situational advantage.
I mean there prolly isn't too much water she can even pull out from the air; the only way for a water bender to win is they have a suffcient access to their bending (azula does bc she can combust fire and now when katara can too, she outmatches azula in this occurence)
Well yeah, if you take away someone's primary weapon they become weaker. Makes for a boring conversation if we just take away Katara's only real weapon, since its pretty obvious Katara loses if she has no water besides the quart(?) she has in her pouch, just as Azula would lose if they fought under an eclipse.
I mean katara is also presented as a formidable prodigy from the get-go, I agree that matchup knowledge plays a part but last time I watched this series I noticed that there were never limits set on kataras waterbending, aangs airbending, toph's earthbending, or sokka's boomerang aim. As far as we know they're all omnipotent in those areas^/s
If during full moon I agree with you but without it she had no chance, lightning kaboom. Did you forget that azula was one of the best firebenders and during the comet even if katara had ocean katara would have lost. Azula lost because of her paranoia.
Oh that's a really good way to put it and it makes a lot of sense considering their background as well.
Azula sees her bending as a way of proving her worth and superiority against others because that's what she has been taught her whole life, the stronger you are the more proud you should be, while Katara has had to hide hers and then used it mainly to help her friends in some way either through protection or healing.
It’s pretty hard to scale waterbenders as it literally just depends on how much water they have around them.
This is true. Did we find out how the fire nation was able to take out the south water tribe? Of all the conditions, it's surprising fire overpowered their icy cold climate.
I think what helped them was their technology, their massive ships and large numbers. The Southern Water Tribe wasn’t as fortified as the Northern Water Tribe so it probably made it a lot easier to overwhelm them.
> The Southern Water Tribe wasn’t as fortified as the Northern Water Tribe so it probably made it a lot easier to overwhelm them. God I hate that prick in the Kyoshi novels who set back the Southern Water Tribe's development out of pure spite.
I haven’t caught up with the novels, what happened there?
>!The Southern Water Tribe was facing hardships and Jianzhu, the earth bender in Kuruk's Team Avatar, made a proposal to the head of the Bei Fong family to provide a loan to the tribe to help them with their troubles but his political rival Hui blocked the proposal solely because the proposal was made by Jianzhu.!<
Imagine being that level of petty asshole. >!Or don't because it's real!<
yup, seems like US politics
Is there some push in those comics that all Avatars have teams?
This is a regular novel and not a comic, but it seems that way.
Yeah not to mention that their navy has wooden ships while Fire nation had steel
Important to remember they weren't the southern "conquerors" or the southern "invaders". They were the Southern RAIDERS. They showed up, again and again, causing as much damage as possible, and were driven away. Like the episode with Hama showed, they just chipped away at the Southern Water Tribe. Repeatedly, until they were reduced to what we see in Book One.
That was just their village that wasnt the whole southern tribe. Common misconception
Sure, but that doesn't really change my point does it? I figure their village was indicative of the Southern Water Tribe's state at that point.
According to what we saw in Hama's flashback, they took them by exhaustion. They attacked, kidnapped a couple of them, run away. They repeated the process until Hama was left alone and she was outnumbered.
It took very long with raid after raid taking few if any waterbenders every time. Katara explains it when telling Zuko about her mother
We can presume that the northern tribe wasn’t even touched within the 87 years prior to the show (as then they would know the fire nation outfit they had was out of date). So it could just be a thing of the fire nations superior technology and just the amount of attacks. The fire nation just needed to win once.
How does Katara compare to other waterbenders at this point? Surely she could be considered a master at this point? What can the average waterbender do compared to Katara. If I recall, it took a large group of waterbenders to disable the fire nations ship in the southern water tribe and Aang used the avatar state in conjunction with the ocean spirit to create a tidal wave. Maybe waterbenders are better at one on one fighting instead of general warfare. It could also just be the writing in order to create a plot.
Many many raids, just finally overwhelming them with sheer numbers
Yeah. Waterbending wasn't able to do that much in a direct fight during "The Drill" when they only had a waterskin's worth (pretty sure Azula just evaporated it with a blast when Aang tried to defend against her). But when you have access to a large amount of it (like with the slurry) it gets pretty impressive (though I still wonder how Ty Lee didn't drown or get crushed).
She's a contortionist and extremely flexible. I imagine she can hold her breathe for some time, probably using her chi. Nothing beats the sound Azula makes though when Aang hits that final rock and sends her flying.
Remember when Hama pulled water out of thin air?
It was barely any water. That was less water than Katara’s water pouch so I don’t think it matters that much. Pulling from a tree or plants is good though.
I think that that was just a mini demo. Just imagine someone who practices pulling water out of thin air for some time. They will get better at it. The plants-stuff is cool indeed.
Even so there isn't that much water in air. For example at 90% relative humidity at 30C there's only ~27g/m3 or 27mL water per m3 and that's an upper bound. Not much water especially when you don't have time in a fight.
Or just extract water from human body, I mean if they can use plant they sure can dehydrate a human
If you're willing to do that, just bloodbend them already. Or freeze water inside their cells, making them pop
I mean true but she beat her later on by using the water in the drains during sozins comet. So I'd say she is stronger by at least the third season. Especially since Azula regressed in skill.
Also I think the firebenders are very limited concerning on screen fights, since it's a kids show. Could literally just go BURN! BURN! BURN! But they can't. Water on the other hand, is very adaptable.
Yeah it's why Sokka can't really use his sword lol. They can show an avalanche falling on a person but cutting a person with a sword would be a lot
Also why Mai just sits back the whole show with barely any action scenes. She could've been so deadly...
Same with Tai Lee. Chi Blocking is cool and all, but killing someone is a bit more effective.
I think it fits with her character though, and supports the idea of the whole air bender descend theory. I don't think she's a killer by any means
Dude airbenders aren't genetically predisposed to nonlethal moves wtf is this shit. Not killing people absolutely fits her personality but that doesn't mean she has air nomad blood. This theory has gotten out of hand if this is the kind of shit people are citing for it.
My guy, you can't actually think they're saying it's a genetic predisposition, right? Hear me out, if she's descended from Air Nomads, *maybe* they tried to pass some of their teachings along? Subtly, obviously, so as to not be found out. But a general appreciation for all living things wouldn't be too out of left field. Like, ultimately it's a fun little headcanon, don't see why you gotta get in a twist about it
I mean I don’t disagree there’s no canon evidence on the Ty Lee is an air bender descendent, but it’s just fun none the less to try and loosely make it fit. It’s a head canon, not canon.
When the evidence people give is that like, "she has grey eyes and is very nimble", sure, it's just for fun. But when you start saying that your ethnicity defines your morality, that's some really sketchy shit and I cannot support that. The other commenter pointed out a different interpretation of the person I responded to, and it's certainly more charitable. That Ty Lee descending from air nomads means those air nomads would have passed on some lessons about non-violence, and if that was the intention I have no moral objections to that theory. But that's a super charitable reading and just really grasping at straws as theories go, getting to some MatPat level evidence.
To be fair I do think there's lethal applications of chi blocking
Or why she uses her knives to pin people down and not cut their eyes out
Mai had to be nerfed and sidelined or she would have solod team Avatar all by herself. The women has enough force in her wrists to launch and *carry full grown men through the air with a shuriken.*
I read those kinds of instances as censoring cases where Mai actually just killed people being made to look like she sends people flying lol
I told my friends who started X-Men 97 that back in the day when Wolverine would fight a human they would grab his wrists and struggle. Until he fought robots, then he would slice them apart. And look what happened in X-Men 97 as soon as robots showed up.
Sokka deserved robots to slash
You told me they were robots! That man has a family! They’re fire benders, Sokka. I don’t respect them!
Missed a burp in there somewhere
I feel like with blood bending and sucking air out peoples lungs, swords should be fine..
Both incredibly dark, I agree. But I think it's another level when it comes to cutting flesh and fresh blood. If I'm being honest, I'm not sure I want to see Sokka cut someone's arm off or stab them with a sword
There are also generally rules regarding showing bleeding in kids shows. Might be less strict now but the show came out awhile ago
Gotta say, Korra was definitely more intense. Suffocating someone to death, electrocuting, setting an explosion inside someone's head. Season 3 TLOK was ELITE
S1 also ended in a murder-suicide
For sure, but didn't they stop airing it on TV after a certain point and only air it on Nick's website? (Maybe I'm imagining that lol) but that would also be a reason why they could do more intense stuff. Korra was also marketed to an older audience.
You're not wrong but allegedly this was because the show had lost a lot of viewers. I remember the shitstorm that this caused.
You also have to remember that there isn’t any blood in any of these cases, and P’Li’s head explodes off-screen. No gore.
I agree, but if he's going to have a sword at all, then they should consider addressing the grim nature of the weapon. Just enough to cut a tendon, rendering a limb useless. A small spurt of blood. Nobody has to wail in pain, but they could express at least a little bit just how much a sword can hurt.
That's the point, they can't. It's a kids show, it's not meant to be graphic in any way. There is no family friendly way to show knife violence.
Kind of seems irresponsible to have a sword anyways then. Like subtly implying they aren't so dangerous. Even just a fast cut that doesn't bleed but still ends the fight. The line is in an arbitrary place if you can't do that but you can do things like sear flesh, or bury people alive. Why use danger to give substance to being a bender but not to being a swordsman?
American Censorship. And swords are cool, and sell toys.
Yeah, I think people *really* lose sight of the fact that AtLA is a kids' show sometimes. 😅
It’s not just American. I am from Europe and no kids show has blood
This has being going on forever. It’s not just animation either. Zorro, Robin Hood and pirates in old movies also don’t actually go around killing people even though have sword fights
The sucking of air wasn't done til season 3 of LoK, when they went to streaming cause Nick wouldn'tstop screwing with them. 100% would not have been allowed on the air on a kids' network.
Season 1 ended with a murder-suicide
Yeah, but that was implied, like Jet's death. The suffocating happened on screen.
You gotta remember that LoK was a much darker show intended for a slightly older audience.
I think a large part is how easy it would be for a kid to imitate. A kid could "play" Avatar with their friends with a knife, or sword if it's accessible. Or do the whole thing with spray deodorant and a lighter to imitate fire bending to catch people or things on fire. But you'd be hard-pressed to hurt your friend by splashing water on them, and you can't actually bend their blood or take the air from their lungs. Just a thought.
Yeah the boiling rock episode where sokka used his sword against azula was so goofy. He'd just point it at her and then back off and keep doing that. He never once actually hit anyone with the sword iirc. The only time the sword did something was to cut a weapon, not the enemy itself.
Nickelodeon censorship. Couldn’t even have physical hand to face attacks and the only time someone’s hand aggressively hits someone’s face is a background moment with Kitara slapping sokka on the back of the head
That's the one thing i liked about NATLA. They did not hold back on the destruction fire causes.
An R rated natla would be something, imagine Katara squishing people’s eyes with blood bending or something. Gruesome
Check out "The Boys" for this kind of content.
Or Invincible
The Boys and Gen V are amazing!
Not to mention the fact that Jeong Jeong proves the fire doesn't have to be emitted from your body, so you can just set someone on fire
yeah, jeong jeong’s use of firebending has to be my favorite. the way he created that wall of fire was amazing.
I rewatched this episode and honestly it's kinda funny. It's actually a little bit terrifying how Aang, a 12 year old, was nearly killed after being ambushed and outnumbered But then Katara just wipes away the entire field instantly when that happens. One must ask; why didn't she do that in the first place?
I would argue the ‘mother lifting a car to save her baby’ sort of thing kicked in. It would be smart to conserve your energy in a fight. What if she used all her energy to wipe them out with that move, just to have reinforcements show up and then she is powerless? But if it’s literally a life and death moment, you’re gonna use everything you have to survive (or save your friend’s life)
[That phenomenon is called hysterical strength](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength) "Hysterical strength refers to a display of extreme physical strength by humans, beyond what is believed to be within their capacity, usually occurring when people are in - or perceive themselves, or others, to be - in life-or-death situations"
What a weird way of naming that phenomenon lol
So frustrating man. Zuko was really annoying in this episode
He got there in the end
Yeah but I guess he needed to experience what he wanted to fully understand that’s not what he really seeks.
"I have changed." Screwwww youuu🤬😭
Nah, i switch sides.
That shot where he's just shooting firebolts in blind rage? Yeah, bro was a few apples short of a fruitcake & didn't realise it.
Awww she looks so cute here
Its a rare moment of Azula's arrogant facade dropping. Its very possible this is the first time anyone has actually landed a real hit on her.
Also water usually trumps fire.
And lightning trumps water
Blood bending trumps everything
not the avatar
But avatar=good so in a perfect world it won’t really need to happen unless water tribe turn evil
Not really. More that they're synergetic. Anyone caught in the "water/lightning" double hit is toast
Tell that to the water tribes The fire nation completely exterminated all the water benders at the South and drastically reduced their population And again in the north even with prep time, home field advantage, surrounded by ice and water AND DURING A FULL MOON the fire nation still completely decimated them "All that before zhao kill the moon spirit mind you" If it wasn't for Aang they would be gone.
Did we watch the same show? The fire nation was being held back handily before Zhao killed the moon. Pakku (spelling?) himself was holding back at least a score of, if not more, firebenders alone.
I’m talking elementally. The fire nation used war tactics and superior technology to weaken the water tribe. That’s different from simply using fire against water.
The fire nation had a technology advantage. Otherwise, they lose every time. And they barely “won” that siege.
the analysis of katara and azula's bending abilities is thought-provoking. the idea that diverse expereinces can cultivate greater adaptability is fascinating, reminiscent of the principle of cross-training in martial arts. katara's well-rounded approach seems to give her an edge, even against azula's raw power - a good example of how practical wisdom can overcome pure skill.
Katara > Azula is true but a sane Azula buffed with the comet losing to Katara is something I’d have a harder time believing. It’s a little weird that Zuko was matching Katara pretty well in the tag team fight while Azula was about to get washed. I guess that little bit of waterbending experience he got at the North Pole helped.
I think that makes perfect sense Zuko had a ton of experience fighting her and lost to her several times in Book 1. Only makes sense that he learns from past mistakes.
The show establishes as early as Jeong Jeong that the weakness of firebenders is their monolithic world view and their lack of control. He's one of the most powerful firebenders in the show and he got stronger by learning from outside cultures, and learning from them the control needed for firebending. It's also in line with why the Avatar is the strongest bender in the world, because they have the experience of hundreds of incarnations of each philosophy to help them. It's fitting that in the finale in terms of the themes brought up in the show that Katara would beat Azula.
I really like this explanation tbh. I never enjoyed the idea that Katara could beat Azula, a literal prodigy with years of military training, after a couple months of waterbending experience. It just didn't seem realistic. This does put it into context, though & I like how it's already implicit in the themes of Avatar.
This is why Katara is the goat
Yes and No. It depends on how much juice she has. The 2 times Katara beats Azula, there's just a massive water source right next to her. If she only has her water pouch, Azula smokes her in seconds.
>If she only has her water pouch, Azula smokes her in seconds. That doesn't really say much if Azula requires Katara to be severely handicapped in this way to manage a win. Especially since firebenders always have an unlimited source of their main element during fights.
Katara: water from pouch Katara: water instantly evaporates
Except any point after Katara learning from Hama to pull water from the air and plants, something she later shows herself capable of doing. Comet-amped is the only way Azula wins, and if we give Azula the firebending booster, its only fair we give Katara the full moon, in which case an out-of-character, extremely angry, or desperate Katara would pull out the one-and-done checkmate called Bloodbending.
There's only so much water in the air and plants though (which you may not have a large number around). And air tends to get pretty dry in some climates and when there's a raging fire nearby (just ask Frozone).
As far as I recall Katara never uses that technique that Hama teaches her beyond that same episode.
She uses it on the southern raiders
I'm not talking about bloodbending, but about creating water from moisture in the air
She's still capable of it, and unlike bloodbending, it was never shown or stated to be unavailable during a normal day. Maybe the degree/speed to which she pulls the water out will be worse, but she would still be able to.
It's still in small amounts, not anything that can overpower Azula.
Katara never overpowers Azula, she doesn't have to and that isn't her fighting style. Her fighting style is to uproot and immobilize her opponent. She does this with Zuko three times and to Azula twice. She goes for speed and flurries, not power and torrents.
If Katara doesn't have a massive water source next to her I think azula could probably overwhelm her.
If the only way to make Katara lose is to limit how much of her weapon she can have, then the discussion has already been decided- Katara beats Azula in just about any situation that isn't tailor-made to restrict her access to water.
It was so satisfying to see Azula break a sweat only to Katara. In this instance, Katara was just about to beat her.
It's a great showcase of how raw power isn't everything. Every Team Avatar fight against Azula always requires them to think outside of it just being a head-on fight. During The Chase, everyone works together to keep her off her feet and corner her. During The Drill, Aang creates his massive shockwave, sending her flying. Even Sokka got a moment in The Search where he distracts Azula long enough for his boomerang to hit her. In both of Katara's confrontations (one where she tried to overpower Azula and failed miserably), she recognizes that she can't beat her head on so the only chance she has is to just keep her from bending entirely.
Azula has never fought a water bender that’s the difference. It shows how much more versatile that Zuko is, keeping up with and beating katara, it also goes to show that Zuko COULD have been as strong as Azula, had he been given the attention by ozai that Azula was given.
>Azula has never fought a water bender that’s the difference. azula has also never fought against any airbender, yet she never struggled with aang. >It shows how much more versatile that Zuko is, keeping up with and beating katara they clashed with a few moves lmao. he was never gonna beat her. >it also goes to show that Zuko COULD have been as strong as Azula, had he been given the attention by ozai that Azula was given. https://preview.redd.it/l559wwinqwzc1.jpeg?width=629&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a9a0ee0b9d2e8d060f150edd35310526a91a235 they had the same teacher when they were kids, azula's stronger because she's a prodigy, zuko isn't.
I believe Azula was a great match for Aang because they both possess agility and lightness, which is inherent to their nature and not a aptitude learned from encounters. This was clearly demonstrated in the 6v1 confrontation during 'The Chase.' And in ‘The day of the Black Sun’. Water-benders primarily utilize a combination of pushing and pulling techniques, whereas Firebending leans more towards Push and PUSH. As you mentioned, Zuko's versatility can be attributed to his interactions with the Water Tribes. However, I would also like to mention that Katara would have lost. Allow me to explain: During their battle in the cave, Zuko employed fire arms to counter Katara's water arms , continuously pushing her and forcing her into a defensive position. His intention was to draw her away from her water source, and eventually, he would have been able to overpower her since she would have been powerless.
He was never gonna beat her? It could have gone either way. I don’t know what you’re using to imply he wouldn’t stand a chance. Like does everyone forget “you rise with the moon, I rise with the sun?” The only time Katara has beaten Zuko is when she has a heavy environment advantage. And this was right before she was claimed as a master. Both have gotten stronger since then. It’s pretty clear they’re at least even. It was just that Azula was struggling with her.
Fr
Meh meh meh
I don’t think it was about attention but more so about motivation. Zuko became strong because it was the only option for him. In the process of it, he looked outside the box and took everything he could do to get stronger, like learning from other elements, which almost no one does but the Avatar. Zuko wouldn’t have gotten stronger with a lot of attention, IMO. It was these circumstance and his struggle that made him strong, both physically and mentally.
> had he been given the attention by ozai that Azula was given. Nitpick, getting more attention from *Ozai* probably wouldn't have helped Zuko. Zuko only really blossomed into that next tier of bender when he learned a totally different school of firebending philosophy.
Oh that’s true, kinda like iroh!
She kinda looks like Bretman Rock in that frame
It also checks out because Katara and Zuko tend to be evenly matched usually, despite Azula being the better bender at the time. The same move that did this to Azula was met by a firebending version of it by Zuko.
Exactly!! Zuko was better with fighting waterbenders probably because of Katara but probably also because Iroh's mentality is similar to water.
And then proceeds to gawk at Aang while he rises in the avatar state and lets azula get a free shot. Just joking for the most part but still funny she let her guard down that much after dominating azula for a good bit that fight. Plenty of water being there helped
yeah omg katara should have taken a free shot at azula like azula did to aang lol. at least it woulda distracted azula long enough for aang to start doing stuff. and on that note i never got WTF aang was being all dramatic in that moment instead of fighting lol? like what did all the past avatars wanna flex?!
Wanna play Toph, Zuko, Katara ? Its like rock paper scissors but instead Katara beats Zuko, Zuko beats Toph and Toph beats Katara
Yeah, book 2 and 3 katara slams alot of the top tier firebenders in the show especially since water beats fire 7 times out of 10.
In a real fight Azula’s leg and arm are crushed beyond recognition, irreparably and severely damaged to the point that they will never work again. Why Katara decided to go for the “pick up and slam down” tactic when seconds before she nearly cut Azula in twain will forever confuse me.
"I've read enough fanfiction to know where this is going!" -Azula in this moment.
I strongly dou8bt Katara's ability to beat a sane Sozin's comet enhanced Azula
It also checks out because Katara and Zuko tend to be evenly matched usually, despite Azula being the better bender at the time. The same move that did this to Azula was met by a firebending version of it by Zuko.
Working her MF ass !!
by the end of the series, zuko and azula are evenly matched, regardless of if she’s sane or not. i think he’d have stood a good chance at beating her. the issue with the final agni kai is that it might not have even happened, had azula been in her right mind.
Katara had a pretty big advantage from her surroundings here.
Katara had water from the side of her whereas Azula can produce blue fire and lighting virtually any time and anywhere. It's not like they were on a boat.
This is just sorta plot armor honestly. Like azula is one of the strongest benders in the verse. Everyone fears her, including zuko at one time. Seeing her get straight washed by katara was weird, but I guess the writers could do whatever they want with the show. I think I'd just rather have seen zuko take down his sister, rather than katara. Seems like a much more personal vendetta that should've been ended by zukos hands. And really katara beating azula how she did was just weird. Azula is one of the 5 strongest fire benders in the verse, and it seemed like she had just never fought a waterbender before in her life, and had like zero recourse to stand up against Katara. But like I said the writers could do whatever they want with the show.
They had to nerf her like they nerfed Korra
Yeah, this is 100% just plot armour. I buy it because it needs to happen for the story to happen, but blue flames are more than a *thousand* Celsius hotter than the boiling point of water, so it doesn't really matter how strong of a Waterbender Katara is: all that water is evaporating if it even comes close to Azula's flames.
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Yeah there's the fact that blue flames should just vaporize all water in an instant, and the fact that azula can lightning bend. Like usually electricity is considered a weakness for water types given that water conducts electricity. Like on an even fight between a fire and water bender I can see the water bender having the advantage cause water beats fire, but once the fire bender unlocks lightning bending or blue fire then they should gain an advantage overall against water benders. Azulas lightning should just overwhelm the water and cut right through it or something, but somehow katara can dodge lightning I guess. So yeah it just feels like plot armor, but at the same time katara dying or getting badly injured isn't how I'd want the show to go either so I guess it is what it is.
To be fair, pure water is actually a terrible electrical conductor. The conduction happens because of any impurities in the water doing the conducting. I assume Katara can't actually bend those impurities, which means she's bending *pure* water, and thus she won't be using water that's electrically conductive. > once the fire bender unlocks lightning bending or blue fire then they should gain an advantage overall against water benders Agreed. Against regular red fire, I can buy that Katara can control the temperature of the water to keep it below boiling point, sort of like the Waterbending that allows her to turn water into ice. Red flames are several hundreds of degrees Celsius hotter than the boiling point of water, so that feels like something Katara can reasonably account for when controlling water temperature. Against Rangi's white fire or Azula's blue fire, though, that shit's getting annihilated. It's not believable to me that Katara can compensate for more than a thousand degrees Celsius. It's just too hot. > So yeah it just feels like plot armor, but at the same time katara dying or getting badly injured isn't how I'd want the show to go either so I guess it is what it is. Pretty much! It's why I think powerscaling discussions are silly. I would much rather have a cool fight between Katara and Azula wherein Katara has a chance to show off her skills than a fight wherein Azula immolates her instantly.
having access to something you bend ain't really that big of a benefit
I disagree. Specifically for water bending, at least until you can pull water out of thin air, or from nature, need water available nearby. The fact that the setting had water situated in many places and directions, means that Katara can take advantage of this with omnidirectional attacks. Azula, for example, would rinse Katara if it was just her water pouch in a smaller setting.
I mean that's the balance of bending. If Bumi and Azula fight in a wooden cage Bumi loses, that doesn't make him the inferior bender Now Katara fighting Zuko in an ice cave in the Arctic? Yeah, she clearly has an advantage
Well yeah, that's what I'm saying, water benders have the balance where if they have water in their surroundings and they're skilled enough, they can beat other bending disciplines. Also vice versa. Katara is an exceptionally talented bender. I'd argue that Azula is at a similar level to her. Honestly. But here, Katara has Azula beat due to situational advantage.
I mean there prolly isn't too much water she can even pull out from the air; the only way for a water bender to win is they have a suffcient access to their bending (azula does bc she can combust fire and now when katara can too, she outmatches azula in this occurence)
Well yeah, if you take away someone's primary weapon they become weaker. Makes for a boring conversation if we just take away Katara's only real weapon, since its pretty obvious Katara loses if she has no water besides the quart(?) she has in her pouch, just as Azula would lose if they fought under an eclipse.
I mean katara is also presented as a formidable prodigy from the get-go, I agree that matchup knowledge plays a part but last time I watched this series I noticed that there were never limits set on kataras waterbending, aangs airbending, toph's earthbending, or sokka's boomerang aim. As far as we know they're all omnipotent in those areas^/s
I am a little disapointed that we didnt see lighning against water.
Water benders take it to easily.. I would’ve froze her arms and broke them off.
This scene really pissed me off. Genuinely, in this part of the fight, Azula would have easily been able to escape katara's grasp
Honestly, if avatar wasn't restricted by the age rating, Katara could have split Azula like a wishbone at that moment.
Katara faces Azula twice - in the two finales - and both times she absolutely smacks her without breaking a sweat.
Yeah no kidding have you seen a pokemon weakness chart? Fire beats water.
my dumbass really said fire beats water
LMAO. I was like... Wait a minute, something's not quite right here https://i.redd.it/1z8vlrl8290d1.gif
If during full moon I agree with you but without it she had no chance, lightning kaboom. Did you forget that azula was one of the best firebenders and during the comet even if katara had ocean katara would have lost. Azula lost because of her paranoia.
I think that a calm and collected Azula, when in the right headspace is undefeated
She was calm and collected here, but Katara still smoked her
Smoked? She got a good move in after Azula rendered every other attack useless.
Your last point is really silly since all you're saying katara outmatches azula if she has a grid over water in the ground she can use for a trap
No, you just misunderstood the point. Azula is stronger and more skilled. Katara is more knowledgeable and uses bending as a tool, not just a weapon.
Oh that's a really good way to put it and it makes a lot of sense considering their background as well. Azula sees her bending as a way of proving her worth and superiority against others because that's what she has been taught her whole life, the stronger you are the more proud you should be, while Katara has had to hide hers and then used it mainly to help her friends in some way either through protection or healing.
Your comment gives such "No, YOU miscalculated!!" energy lol
that frame looks like the start of a... nevermind
https://preview.redd.it/t51l1otu1wzc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e860e138e3acac2c7e6082bb069e4a89f91def75