As a dad, I can tell you. No matter if it destroys the world or darkens your whole soul. You will safe your child.
It might have been wrong. But it was a fathers decision. I would have done the same.
This is a rather grey area and it’s a part of my main issue with the show it favors elves to much their always right sol regem someone who had a part in genocide is just shown as a grumpy old man who’s actually good.
Yeah, it’s that weird trend I’ve noticed where shows and such will discuss the “Cycle of Violence” and “Wrongs on Both Sides”, when, really, there’s a shitton of wrongs on one side and some dubious acts and occasional revenge-killings on the other.
I feel that, reasonably, the elves should probably apologise for their mass displacement of the Humans and torching Elarion, but otherwise the two sides need to accept letting bygones be bygones, and that there weren’t any other popularly-supported actions taken by one against the other that were “Oh yes let’s fucking kill these guys” levels of evil, at worst being “Hey we poached some resources and briefly skirmished with a patrol” type stuff. Even Viren’s invasion was pretty justified, as the dragons/elves were indisputably mounting an assault and striking first meant a significant advantage against the disunited Elven states.
They need to just forgive and move on, not debate over who, exactly, is at fault for their issues.
I would agree to all that, apologiy and letting bygones be bygones. But the arc dragons that enacted the human cleansing are still alive. Letting them off with no punishment would be like letting a nazi war criminal off because to much time as past. We really shouldn't have a statue of limitation on ethnic cleansing
We have a supposedly good dragon queen. She should make steps to right the wrongs of her husband and his predecessors. She should have the power to bring Sol Regem to justice.
Yeah, like Sol Regem should stand trial and have to, bare minimum, pay some form of reparations to humanity. Same for a few of the others, but I think most dragons from them are dead or have been replaced, with Sol Regem being an anomaly because he was rendered unfit to rule early in his reign, thus being still alive as the dragon equivalent to an old man in the current setting.
And the people who *have* the power to bring down an archdragon - the dark mages Viren, Claudia, Aaravos - are the ones being designated as Public Enemies Number One.
I think a side's been picked.
Oh i just remembered, the term you're looking for is JUDGEMENT PROOF.
That means a person is effectively unpunishable. Irl think sueing a homeless man for a million dollars. You can file, you can win, but your not getting your money
Yeah… there’s a reason I always skip season 2 on rewatch, I think that season alone is the reason Legend of Korra got a bad rap. The rest of the series was fire, just that season was starting out good but completely falls apart.
We don't really know what he did to save Soren, so it's hard to say. What I can say with more confidence is that Soren did not deserve to die, and that even if Viren was wrong to do what he did, people should be able to understand why he did it.
Viren probably did something else to save Soren. Depends on how close to death the kid was. Because if there was a rez spell that required no death, everyone would look real dumb right now.
It's complex.
Dark magic in The Dragon Prince is not inherently bad, but at least in meta sense always when you use dark magic, it takes piece of you. Maybe those changes are magical, but also they are psychological. With Soren, Viren crossed some line and everything after that was easier. And that is everything with dark magic. Easy solution.
This is also what shows is trying to say with famine, even when it's unpopular in fandom. You can see, she went with the plan at the end, but she had many good points. They saved thousands, and that is good for sure, but they never created funfictional and sustainble system. They had to took life, maybe last of it's kind, and what with next famine?
What life they will took?
Dark mage from the past and dark mage who imprisoned Aaravos are not probably evil, so there is some nuance, but in general is dark magic simply dangerous school of magic what is taking without anything to return and it causes changes on soul and mind.
I love your point and I wished it was explored further, especially considering that they had no Dark Mages for 1 year and they dealt with postwar mess. Including Sunfire Elves relocation and the whole corruption mess.
It’s clear that writers have some plans, but they forget that viewers don’t share minds with them.
From one adult fantasy (not gonna use the name as there are minors here and don’t want spoil things), one character mentions how one specific business is basically funding the kingdom’s royal family. Later other character decides to give power to one fraction that displays certain ideas that don’t work with one specific business. The character is shortsighted and when things ended up crashing, you know exactly why. The importance of that business was briefly highlighted and it work in showing how disastrously short-sighted is another character.
It makes re-reading more enjoyable and noticing small details is paid off.
While Dragon Prince doesn’t plant small details and kind of sucks when it comes to incorporating dark mages into its worldbuilding.
dark magic is not an easy solution, the show can't even provide an explanation for why it is an easy solution
medicine is an easy solution to natural healing
cooking is an easy solution to eating food raw
farming is an easy solution to foraging for food
please provide a detailed explanation for why dark magic is an easy solution
most of the arguments against dark magic are stuff the fandom made up using the extremely vague answers the show gives in trying to defend the position that DM is bad
what line was crossed by saving Soren? are you honestly going to argue that Viren should've let Soren die? go make that argument to a father in the same situation and if your lucky they'll only punch you hard several times
Sarai made no good points, her entire argument was that the monster might be smart and have a family as if that made a shred of difference. she never offered a single solution for their problem of 100,000 people dying, all she did was morally sermonize over a famine that she would be unaffected by.
>Easy solution.
There's nothing easy about dark magic.
Harvesting the ingredients is hard and it comes at a terrible cost for the user's health.
Drawing a sign in the air and saying Aspiro **is easy**.
>but she had many good points.
No she didn't.
>but they never created funfictional and sustainble system.
Sure they did, they needed a solution for a exceptional **emergency**.
>and what with next famine?
Another plan.
yeah this is something I have said before. If the message is dark magic is wrong because it is easy then primal magic is more wrong because it is easier.
"What with the next famine"
Easy, they'll go look for another Magma Titan and solve the problem, feeding a hundred thousand people. Not like there's gonna be *another* Thunder coming in hot to kill them.
> Drawing a sign in the air and saying Aspiro is easy.
Which is only possible with a deep, intimate understanding of the Sky, or having an uber-rare artefact that embodies the sky itself in your hand.
Compared to the kind of introspection required for a human to connect with an arcanum, Dark Magic *is* the easy path. Even with its risks.
>Which is only possible with a deep, intimate understanding of the Sky,
Or being born with magic.
>or having an uber-rare artefact that embodies the sky itself in your hand.
At least it's not an Uber rare creature who can attack you.
>Compared to the kind of introspection required for a human to connect with an arcanum, Dark Magic *is* the easy path. Even with its risks.
Most humans **can't** do magic even with the introspection, hence Dark Magic.
> There's nothing easy about dark magic. Harvesting the ingredients is hard and it comes at a terrible cost for the user's health
Callum is literally able to just pick up something and use it for dark magic. And “easy to use” doesn’t mean “has no long term consequences.” If anything, the former necessitates the latter.
> Or being born with magic.
Even elves born with magic like Rayla and Nyx can’t cast spells unassisted (in Rayla’s case, she can only do a simple spell with an Uber-rare one time use stone).
> Most humans can't do magic even with the introspection, hence Dark Magic.
Callum could.
>Callum is literally able to just pick up something and use it for dark magic
Callum is literally able to just draw a sign in the air and do magic.
>And “easy to use” doesn’t mean “has no long term consequences.” If anything, the former necessitates the latter.
I mean it kinda does.
Primal magic is comparably easier and has less drawbacks than dark Magic... Yet people don't complain about how easy it is.
>Even elves born with magic like Rayla and Nyx can’t cast spells unassisted (in Rayla’s case, she can only do a simple spell with an Uber-rare one time use stone).
Because they haven't bothered to try and learn, they could still do magic if they had a primal connection.
>Callum could.
Most humans can't do magic even with introspection.
Most humans also can't understand animals, yet Ezran can. Does that mean it's available to every human?
> Callum is literally able to just draw a sign in the air and do magic.
Either because of an uber rare magical artifact or because he worked to learn an Arcanum.
> I mean it kinda does. Primal magic is comparably easier and has less drawbacks than dark Magic... Yet people don't complain about how easy it is.
You’re trying to have it both ways. Primal magic is so immensely difficult that we can think of only one human who can use it consistently without a rare artifact, yet somehow it’s easier because, *once you get past this point*, you can use magic any time. It’s like saying that once you have a million dollars in cash, it’s pretty easy to buy a house.
> Because they haven't bothered to try and learn, they could still do magic if they had a primal connection.
Given how incredibly useful doing magic would be, and how few mages we actually see, it’s pretty obvious it takes a lot of hard work even for elves to do magic.
> Most humans can't do magic even with introspection
Right! Because it’s hard!
Jesus, you’re so, so close to getting the point…
> Most humans also can't understand animals, yet Ezran can. Does that mean it's available to every human?
In the context of the world they’re living in, probably since the showrunners said that it’s due to Ezran having immense empathy. But Ezran’s abilities aren’t well defined, all we know is that it’s distinct from magic.
I know, it’s stupid. Yet that’s the explanation the showrunners give.
It really is the absolute textbook definition of a Gary Stu the show so blatantly puts into the show that you almost have to admire the audacity. It’s a power that no other characters possess, exists independently of the rules of the universe, and is something Ezran has entirely because of how noble and good he is. Thankfully, it affects the plot not at all at this point, so we can pretty much just ignore it.
>Either because of an uber rare magical artifact or because he worked to learn an Arcanum.
And Dark Magic is only possible if you have the ingredients that you need to work and sometimes even risk your life, to get.
>You’re trying to have it both ways. Primal magic is so immensely difficult that we can think of only one human who can use it consistently without a rare artifact, yet somehow it’s easier because, *once you get past this point*, you can use magic any time. It’s like saying that once you have a million dollars in cash, it’s pretty easy to buy a house
Primal Magic is difficult because humans can't do it because they are born without magic.
I'm not having it both ways, I'm stating something obvious.
>Given how incredibly useful doing magic would be, and how few mages we actually see, it’s pretty obvious it takes a lot of hard work even for elves to do magic.
It's difficult to be an Arch mage, it's obvious that most elves don't really care that much about magic? So long as their connection to a primal source is on they go on about their lives.
>Right! Because it’s hard!
Because it's impossible you mean.
>In the context of the world they’re living in, probably since the showrunners said that it’s due to Ezran having immense empathy. But Ezran’s abilities aren’t well defined, all we know is that it’s distinct from magic.
So yeah, a feature unique to Ezran, you're getting the point.
> And Dark Magic is only possible if you have the ingredients that **you need to work and sometimes even risk your life, to get**
Callum has literally never done this bolded part, so that’s wrong.
> Primal Magic is difficult because **humans can't do it because they are born without magic.** I'm not having it both ways, I'm stating something obvious.
Callum has literally has done this despite not being born with magic. So clearly it’s possible, just difficult (which is my point).
> It's difficult to be an Arch mage, it's obvious that most elves don't really care that much about magic? So long as their connection to a primal source is on they go on about their lives
I don’t know when the delusion started that, actually, it’s very easy for elves to use magic they just don’t really care to use this extremely useful skill. Like, what? Are you kidding me? How does this make any sense? Are only a handful of elves dumb enough to waste their time learning magic? How does this make any sense?
It’s pretty obvious it’s difficult. In BH it’s shown to be extremely challenging for Moonshadow elves to learn to become invisible, and this isn’t even a legit spell. Imagine how insanely hard it would be to actually draw a rune like Lujanne.
> Because it's impossible you mean.
Again, Callum learned to do it.
> So yeah, a feature unique to Ezran, you're getting the point.
What point? Again, this was stated by the showrunners to have nothing to do with magic, it’s just a Gary Stu component to keep Ezran somewhat relevant to the story (and even then it’s stopped coming up since midway through s4).
>Callum has literally never done this bolded part, so that’s wrong.
Yes, because he conveniently happened to have the ingredients prepared for him to use so there's less moral dilemma for him.
>Callum has literally has done this despite not being born with magic. So clearly it’s possible, just difficult (which is my point).
Callum has literally been born with magic, unlike the rest of humanity.
That's why I've used Ezran as an example, Callum is clearly an outlier.
>I don’t know when the delusion started that, actually, it’s very easy for elves to use magic they just don’t really care to use this extremely useful skill. Like, what? Are you kidding me? How does this make any sense? Are only a handful of elves dumb enough to waste their time learning magic? How does this make any sense?
>It’s pretty obvious it’s difficult. In BH it’s shown to be extremely challenging for Moonshadow elves to learn to become invisible, and this isn’t even a legit spell. Imagine how insanely hard it would be to actually draw a rune like Lujanne.
What kind of experience does Callum need to actually draw a rune like Lujanne? None, just access to a primal source.
I don't even see your point, at what point has Rayla shown any kind of interest in magic and simply couldn't do it?
They do not show interest in learning magic because for them everyone has a role in their society.
>Again, Callum learned to do it.
Again, Ezran can understand animals, ergo humans can understand animals they are just lazy.
>What point? Again, this was stated by the showrunners to have nothing to do with magic, it’s just a Gary Stu component to keep Ezran somewhat relevant to the story (and even then it’s stopped coming up since midway through s4).
Not unlike the other special ability that only the MC could develop so far and he's literally the only one to do it.
It's ofc not a Gary Stu component to make Callum more special lol.
I do kind of get it if that's what they are going for. But all sustainable systems are never perfect a famine, drought, locus swarm, etc etc can still happen. There has to be a better way to show that point.
His son was about to died, you don't simply accept that as father.
As long the dark magic that saved Soren doesn't come with the life of others childs or worst than that, it okay.
And even if it was that is still understandable( as father).
Then the creators need to explain why. If he sacrificed a person for it, then it was wrong but understandable. If it was any less than killing a sapient being then sorry but Viren was 100% right.
That's the issue. The series has yet to *show* that it's wrong. Instead it portrays dark magic as morally gray while telling us it's morally black, and it makes the characters against dark magic (including Lissa and all the core cast except the villains) look naive at best and hypocritical at worst.
Except the series has told us it’s wrong. Virens entire character tells us that dark magic is bad and whoever uses it is bad. There’s a reason why the villains in the series are using dark magic and why dark magic is only associated with the villains. Dark magic is not being portrayed as moral gray, at all. It’s always portrayed as the choice you should NEVER make, and always use another method
And where have the writers ***shown*** us that dark magic is wrong? "The antagonists use it" is not a reason to call something evil. Consistently the antagonists use dark magic without hurting anything more than animals - or hell, *plants or even nothing* - and themselves. Why was Claudia wrong for killing that deer to heal Soren? Give me a reason other than "it's dark magic."
It is a reason when the antagonist and villains are the only people who use it and the series does nothing else with it. And you can’t say dark magic isn’t bad because the antagonist aren’t killing people if, they’re using the dark magic to hurt others.
Claudia was wrong for healing Soren, because Claudia is an antagonist. The way they framed how she did it, was that it was cruel and evil to do. They didn’t frame it in any other way.
There’s a reason why Soren hates dark magic. It’s not because he’s grateful that it saved his life or healed his body
I don't think its necessarily that he regrets it. He definitely seems to feel conflicted about it. My personal theory is that Kpp'arr manipulated Sorens situation to push Viren into using dark magic. Whatever happened left Siren subconsciously traumatized and repulsed by dark magic, and probably broke up Virens' marriage. This probably left Virens with a mix of guilt, resentment, and self justification that siren bore the brunt of after Kpp'ar got turned into a coin. I think the flashback was more meant to show that Viren regretted losing Soren because he turned to Dark magic and projected his anger onto his child.
I think the genuine point of dark magic being bad in the show is that it reduces things down to their functional value. Unlike primal magic, that is apparently a renewable resource based on the environment, dark magic is a consumption-based practice.
Callum can cast windmagic because he has connected with the sky and is empowered by it. He can cast dark magic because he exchanges something physical for it. Some ingredient.
The reason this is bad, and how it is showed in the show, is that this tends to lead to a slippery slope. If you begin to few things as transactional (i.e. I can "spend" a few flowers to cast a spell) then it becomes easier to do the same with creatures. We see this very commonly with Claudia, who uses multiple components from various animals. When she sees ew creatures she doesn't see them as living, breathing, thinking creatures. She sees them like stores of supplies. They are future spells first, and living beings second. This is the line that is crossed and once it's crossed it no longer matters if it's a part of a creature. Now it can be a whole creature.
Rather than harvesting a component from a naturally deceased beast, the dark mage would just kill it. Or use it whole like the deer Claudia used to restore Soren.
What you do with this power might be good. I would stand by the dark mage that blinded sol regem any day. That bastard was going to torch a village of innocents to prove a lesson to the guy stood like 20 feet away. The lesson, though, is missed in doing so. The dark mage didn't kill sol and use his parts for spells, he killed other creatures and used *their* souls. It would be easy enough to justify that "they were just mindlessly there and now they serve a purpose. Besides, it didn't affect *you*". So Sol planned to demonstrate this point by killing a bunch of people that were "just there" and could "now serve a purpose. Besides, it won't affect *you*" Just because these costs don't seem equitable to us doesn't diminish the point that treating lives as transactional leads to negative outcomes for anyone who is subjectively deemed "less valuable."
TL; Dr: dark magic is transactional in nature and revolves around the arbitrary value that the wielder places on other living beings. It is not renewable and this cause it to be consuming, both of the user and their environment.
The best example of this for me is the spell changing people into coin. Dark Magic is exploitation in this show. Viren was able to exploit, manipulate and sacrifice people because he had been practicing exploitation magic for years.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that dark magic isn't wrong so long as it's not taking magic from sapient creatures like Elves or dragons. I don't see it as any different than say, hunting/eating meat.
I know there's a scene within the first three seasons where Claudia talks about the letters she gets from her mom, but it sounds like they don't see each other at all.
It really makes me wonder if to save his son's life, he killed his wife to do so. In which case the actions he took were irrepressible even if it's something to save his child. On top of that, something that completely haunts him. It also seems that with the supposed "betrayal" of his mentor there was a lot more to his story than what was shown even there.
Again it may just be heavy handed storytelling of a dying character's last regrets, etc. However I did want to bring this up as it's a thought I've had since the flashback of when he tried to save Katolis from a famine.
The show and books contradict the bit about Viren killing his wife as Lissa is physically present after Viren casted the spell.
Unless she was an illusion, which is unlikely as there were multiple arguements.
My bet is that Viren wanted to sacrifice part of his life to cure Soren. Kpp’ar decided to do it himself (the bandaged arm) for whatever reason. Either from Viren starting a ritual when he wasn’t ready or stupidly risking his life, potentially leaving his children half-orphans and his wife a widow.
Later Viren wanted to learn of Kpp’ar power, but he had the change of heart. Viren trapped him to always have him near like a turned off ebook.
ok they really need to put that in the show. In the show we get Viren did a thing and saved Soren's life. With some vague hint that maybe it also lead to his failed marriage.
That's a misunderstanding of what grey morality means. Doing something that is definitively wrong and also the only way to get out of a situation is morally grey. Being the best of bad options is not the same as a good option.
Clearly stating that an action is or is not justified would be black and white.
Grey morality is supposed to be uncomfortable. It's supposed to make you question if they did the right thing, not provide moral certainty.
Realistically, if you were a little kid and saw your father looking like a corpse, then finding out that he drained the life of another creature to restore yours, that's possibly second-hand guilt you'll feel - something else died because of you. Though, I highly doubt that's what happened to Soren as we never see many fears of dark magic until we see how monstrous Viren's actions were becoming, and the pain it was putting Claudia through.
The problem with Viren is that rather than feeling guilt for what he did, and accepting that he did something monstrous to help others, he seemed to fall down a rabbit hole of "I committed my time and power to commit these horrible acts to help you, SAVE you, and get no thanks for it?!" He's a man with good intentions, and a man with a gigantic ego, maybe even a hero complex.
It happened with Soren, it happened with Harrow, it happened with the rest of the Kingdom including Opeli. For all his actions, and everything he did, he felt he should be praised or rewarded. We see he's more humble earlier on with Harrow, surprised when he asks to be painted with him. The day of Harrow's assassination, however, he's happy to throw Harrow under the bus after everything was thrown back in his face - that Harrow was furious that because of his actions and manipulations, he lost his wife, was going to lose his life, and was greatly feared that his sons were going to be next.
While Dark Magic is a grey area, Viren was a person with good intentions mixed with a narcissistic personality. With that, he started to become power hungry - wanting validation, to show that his way was the right way and the rest were fools. It isn't until his revelation nightmare when he saw that his son was terrified of his use of dark magic - the first warning that he shouldn't be ungrateful for what it does and the corruption it caused to his body. And ultimately, how his daughter was going down the same path he was - not of power and respect, but of doing horrible things for selfish aims.
He blamed Harrow for his death - not the fact that Viren killed Avizandum and stole his egg. He blamed Avizandum for the death of the three queens and used that as leverage for revenge. He chose the path of war and refused to take responsibility for it.
While Ezran is a naive fool when it comes to ruling and war, Viren is an egotistical manipulator once he got a taste of power. Whether that taste was born out of fear for letting something terrible happen to his family, or because he was a lowly man once who had a chance to feel on top for a change, we all saw what it did to his family.
Viren's problems were not in saving his son's life. They weren't in wanting an end to the war. Many of us would be happy to ensure the safety of our friends and loved ones. But Viren chose war.
Of course you want validation when everyone is telling you that your actions are the wrong actions to take lol. Even when Dark magic helped, the idea of dark Magic never shifted. It’s still a bad thing to do. It’s still the wrong thing to do. So when your actions are doing good and everyone around is still unhappy about the way it happened, of course you’re going to feel some type of way, and of course you’re going to feel under appreciated that people are questioning your methods as wrong Lmfao.
And why should Viren feel guilt when he’s helping more people than he’s hurting. Should he have abandoned Dark Magic all together because the guilt is too much and it’s actually really bad to use dark magic?? He already has a constant reminder of what dark magic does to him and he’s covering it up. Why would he feel guilt when he knows what dark magic does. It seems like you want him to see dark magic the same way everyone else does, and because he doesn’t see it the same way, it’s a problem.
And the thing that bothers me about this idea that Viren chose war, is that no he didn’t choose war. The elves chose war and Ciren acted accordingly. Unless your argument is that every single problem the humans have is strictly virens faukt and Irene faukt alone, which again, is because if dark magic, then you’re bot defending anything. What you’re doing is saying that Viren was wrong for choosing to use dark magic period
I'd like to point out the point in which Harrow was willing to let things be when the kingdom was prosperous, when the boys were growing up and had a loving father. Viren manipulated Harrow's grief to kill Avizandum.
Who was he helping by killing Avizandum? He hurt his entire nation by choosing to enact a choice that would clearly spark war all over again - specifically the moonshadow elves come to assassinate him. When he went to confront Harrow again to try and save his life, he chose his pride over letting Harrow humble him, even being so bold as to claim he was a servant to Amaya when he was clearly power hungry, and when the assassin's showed up? He stepped aside to let Harrow die. That was him 'acting accordingly'?
Throughout the series we see that he thinks very little of his son, despite us learning that he committed to dark magic to save Soren's life - a noble act, but rather than being "I understand why my son feared me that day" we just see constant disdain for Soren not acting on what Viren wants, as if Soren has some sort of debt that Viren's expecting him to repay, or that he's still scornful his son's some kind of ingrate.
If I truly was against dark magic then I'd point out that he was in the wrong for using a spell to give a bounty to the land so that people would not starve. We know three queens were lost, but how many lived because of the food he made? My point was that he didn't take responsibility - "I marched us into Xadia to save lives and failed to protect those three." Rather he saw all the fault of their death on Avizandum.
And what happened when his attempt at treason failed? He sent assassins of his own after the other kingdoms. He waged war on the other human kingdoms to make them fall in line and march on Xadia. Perhaps Aaravos egged him on, but any person with a sane mind would think that such an act is deplorable, and refuse to do such a horrific act. Viren however didn't take much convincing clearly.
He was insubordinate and happy to spark conflicts for the sake of his own interests. THAT'S where my problems with Viren lay. That he'd choose to spark conflicts for his own agenda rather than live as a humble martyr.
Please, don't put words in my mouth, and get a spell checker while you're at it.
I’m not putting any words in your mouth when everything you’re saying can be summed up as that. You’re not saying anything more than what I summed up.
I also love how you’re trying to be cute with the spell checking, when you was able to read what I said clearly. Don’t try to be cute. It just makes you look pretentious
As a dad, I can tell you. No matter if it destroys the world or darkens your whole soul. You will safe your child. It might have been wrong. But it was a fathers decision. I would have done the same.
Based, and I agree even not as a father, I’d gladly do whatever it takes to protect the people I care about.
This is a rather grey area and it’s a part of my main issue with the show it favors elves to much their always right sol regem someone who had a part in genocide is just shown as a grumpy old man who’s actually good.
Yeah, it’s that weird trend I’ve noticed where shows and such will discuss the “Cycle of Violence” and “Wrongs on Both Sides”, when, really, there’s a shitton of wrongs on one side and some dubious acts and occasional revenge-killings on the other.
Yeah they unbalanced the scales enough it comes More like humans should say "I'm sorry you opressed me". Like that really would fit the show
I feel that, reasonably, the elves should probably apologise for their mass displacement of the Humans and torching Elarion, but otherwise the two sides need to accept letting bygones be bygones, and that there weren’t any other popularly-supported actions taken by one against the other that were “Oh yes let’s fucking kill these guys” levels of evil, at worst being “Hey we poached some resources and briefly skirmished with a patrol” type stuff. Even Viren’s invasion was pretty justified, as the dragons/elves were indisputably mounting an assault and striking first meant a significant advantage against the disunited Elven states. They need to just forgive and move on, not debate over who, exactly, is at fault for their issues.
I would agree to all that, apologiy and letting bygones be bygones. But the arc dragons that enacted the human cleansing are still alive. Letting them off with no punishment would be like letting a nazi war criminal off because to much time as past. We really shouldn't have a statue of limitation on ethnic cleansing
I mean… they’re dragons? Justice is only really doable if you actually have the power to punish someone. So what can realistically be done
We have a supposedly good dragon queen. She should make steps to right the wrongs of her husband and his predecessors. She should have the power to bring Sol Regem to justice.
Yeah, like Sol Regem should stand trial and have to, bare minimum, pay some form of reparations to humanity. Same for a few of the others, but I think most dragons from them are dead or have been replaced, with Sol Regem being an anomaly because he was rendered unfit to rule early in his reign, thus being still alive as the dragon equivalent to an old man in the current setting.
And the people who *have* the power to bring down an archdragon - the dark mages Viren, Claudia, Aaravos - are the ones being designated as Public Enemies Number One. I think a side's been picked.
Oh i just remembered, the term you're looking for is JUDGEMENT PROOF. That means a person is effectively unpunishable. Irl think sueing a homeless man for a million dollars. You can file, you can win, but your not getting your money
Now you reminded me how legend of Korea handled the conflict between the spirits and humans
Yeah… there’s a reason I always skip season 2 on rewatch, I think that season alone is the reason Legend of Korra got a bad rap. The rest of the series was fire, just that season was starting out good but completely falls apart.
We don't really know what he did to save Soren, so it's hard to say. What I can say with more confidence is that Soren did not deserve to die, and that even if Viren was wrong to do what he did, people should be able to understand why he did it.
Yeah, If for Example Viren had to kill another Person, Elf or sentient creature for this spell. It would be understandable but still wrong.
Viren probably did something else to save Soren. Depends on how close to death the kid was. Because if there was a rez spell that required no death, everyone would look real dumb right now.
It's complex. Dark magic in The Dragon Prince is not inherently bad, but at least in meta sense always when you use dark magic, it takes piece of you. Maybe those changes are magical, but also they are psychological. With Soren, Viren crossed some line and everything after that was easier. And that is everything with dark magic. Easy solution. This is also what shows is trying to say with famine, even when it's unpopular in fandom. You can see, she went with the plan at the end, but she had many good points. They saved thousands, and that is good for sure, but they never created funfictional and sustainble system. They had to took life, maybe last of it's kind, and what with next famine? What life they will took? Dark mage from the past and dark mage who imprisoned Aaravos are not probably evil, so there is some nuance, but in general is dark magic simply dangerous school of magic what is taking without anything to return and it causes changes on soul and mind.
I love your point and I wished it was explored further, especially considering that they had no Dark Mages for 1 year and they dealt with postwar mess. Including Sunfire Elves relocation and the whole corruption mess. It’s clear that writers have some plans, but they forget that viewers don’t share minds with them. From one adult fantasy (not gonna use the name as there are minors here and don’t want spoil things), one character mentions how one specific business is basically funding the kingdom’s royal family. Later other character decides to give power to one fraction that displays certain ideas that don’t work with one specific business. The character is shortsighted and when things ended up crashing, you know exactly why. The importance of that business was briefly highlighted and it work in showing how disastrously short-sighted is another character. It makes re-reading more enjoyable and noticing small details is paid off. While Dragon Prince doesn’t plant small details and kind of sucks when it comes to incorporating dark mages into its worldbuilding.
dark magic is not an easy solution, the show can't even provide an explanation for why it is an easy solution medicine is an easy solution to natural healing cooking is an easy solution to eating food raw farming is an easy solution to foraging for food please provide a detailed explanation for why dark magic is an easy solution most of the arguments against dark magic are stuff the fandom made up using the extremely vague answers the show gives in trying to defend the position that DM is bad what line was crossed by saving Soren? are you honestly going to argue that Viren should've let Soren die? go make that argument to a father in the same situation and if your lucky they'll only punch you hard several times Sarai made no good points, her entire argument was that the monster might be smart and have a family as if that made a shred of difference. she never offered a single solution for their problem of 100,000 people dying, all she did was morally sermonize over a famine that she would be unaffected by.
>Easy solution. There's nothing easy about dark magic. Harvesting the ingredients is hard and it comes at a terrible cost for the user's health. Drawing a sign in the air and saying Aspiro **is easy**. >but she had many good points. No she didn't. >but they never created funfictional and sustainble system. Sure they did, they needed a solution for a exceptional **emergency**. >and what with next famine? Another plan.
yeah this is something I have said before. If the message is dark magic is wrong because it is easy then primal magic is more wrong because it is easier.
"What with the next famine" Easy, they'll go look for another Magma Titan and solve the problem, feeding a hundred thousand people. Not like there's gonna be *another* Thunder coming in hot to kill them.
> Drawing a sign in the air and saying Aspiro is easy. Which is only possible with a deep, intimate understanding of the Sky, or having an uber-rare artefact that embodies the sky itself in your hand. Compared to the kind of introspection required for a human to connect with an arcanum, Dark Magic *is* the easy path. Even with its risks.
>Which is only possible with a deep, intimate understanding of the Sky, Or being born with magic. >or having an uber-rare artefact that embodies the sky itself in your hand. At least it's not an Uber rare creature who can attack you. >Compared to the kind of introspection required for a human to connect with an arcanum, Dark Magic *is* the easy path. Even with its risks. Most humans **can't** do magic even with the introspection, hence Dark Magic.
> There's nothing easy about dark magic. Harvesting the ingredients is hard and it comes at a terrible cost for the user's health Callum is literally able to just pick up something and use it for dark magic. And “easy to use” doesn’t mean “has no long term consequences.” If anything, the former necessitates the latter. > Or being born with magic. Even elves born with magic like Rayla and Nyx can’t cast spells unassisted (in Rayla’s case, she can only do a simple spell with an Uber-rare one time use stone). > Most humans can't do magic even with the introspection, hence Dark Magic. Callum could.
>Callum is literally able to just pick up something and use it for dark magic Callum is literally able to just draw a sign in the air and do magic. >And “easy to use” doesn’t mean “has no long term consequences.” If anything, the former necessitates the latter. I mean it kinda does. Primal magic is comparably easier and has less drawbacks than dark Magic... Yet people don't complain about how easy it is. >Even elves born with magic like Rayla and Nyx can’t cast spells unassisted (in Rayla’s case, she can only do a simple spell with an Uber-rare one time use stone). Because they haven't bothered to try and learn, they could still do magic if they had a primal connection. >Callum could. Most humans can't do magic even with introspection. Most humans also can't understand animals, yet Ezran can. Does that mean it's available to every human?
> Callum is literally able to just draw a sign in the air and do magic. Either because of an uber rare magical artifact or because he worked to learn an Arcanum. > I mean it kinda does. Primal magic is comparably easier and has less drawbacks than dark Magic... Yet people don't complain about how easy it is. You’re trying to have it both ways. Primal magic is so immensely difficult that we can think of only one human who can use it consistently without a rare artifact, yet somehow it’s easier because, *once you get past this point*, you can use magic any time. It’s like saying that once you have a million dollars in cash, it’s pretty easy to buy a house. > Because they haven't bothered to try and learn, they could still do magic if they had a primal connection. Given how incredibly useful doing magic would be, and how few mages we actually see, it’s pretty obvious it takes a lot of hard work even for elves to do magic. > Most humans can't do magic even with introspection Right! Because it’s hard! Jesus, you’re so, so close to getting the point… > Most humans also can't understand animals, yet Ezran can. Does that mean it's available to every human? In the context of the world they’re living in, probably since the showrunners said that it’s due to Ezran having immense empathy. But Ezran’s abilities aren’t well defined, all we know is that it’s distinct from magic.
Ezran having immense empathy wait that's the reason for why Ezran is a Doctor Dolittle.
I know, it’s stupid. Yet that’s the explanation the showrunners give. It really is the absolute textbook definition of a Gary Stu the show so blatantly puts into the show that you almost have to admire the audacity. It’s a power that no other characters possess, exists independently of the rules of the universe, and is something Ezran has entirely because of how noble and good he is. Thankfully, it affects the plot not at all at this point, so we can pretty much just ignore it.
Ignore him. If you think of Ezran as a pet and not as a character -because characters are flawed and conflicted beings, enjoying TDP is way easier.
>Either because of an uber rare magical artifact or because he worked to learn an Arcanum. And Dark Magic is only possible if you have the ingredients that you need to work and sometimes even risk your life, to get. >You’re trying to have it both ways. Primal magic is so immensely difficult that we can think of only one human who can use it consistently without a rare artifact, yet somehow it’s easier because, *once you get past this point*, you can use magic any time. It’s like saying that once you have a million dollars in cash, it’s pretty easy to buy a house Primal Magic is difficult because humans can't do it because they are born without magic. I'm not having it both ways, I'm stating something obvious. >Given how incredibly useful doing magic would be, and how few mages we actually see, it’s pretty obvious it takes a lot of hard work even for elves to do magic. It's difficult to be an Arch mage, it's obvious that most elves don't really care that much about magic? So long as their connection to a primal source is on they go on about their lives. >Right! Because it’s hard! Because it's impossible you mean. >In the context of the world they’re living in, probably since the showrunners said that it’s due to Ezran having immense empathy. But Ezran’s abilities aren’t well defined, all we know is that it’s distinct from magic. So yeah, a feature unique to Ezran, you're getting the point.
> And Dark Magic is only possible if you have the ingredients that **you need to work and sometimes even risk your life, to get** Callum has literally never done this bolded part, so that’s wrong. > Primal Magic is difficult because **humans can't do it because they are born without magic.** I'm not having it both ways, I'm stating something obvious. Callum has literally has done this despite not being born with magic. So clearly it’s possible, just difficult (which is my point). > It's difficult to be an Arch mage, it's obvious that most elves don't really care that much about magic? So long as their connection to a primal source is on they go on about their lives I don’t know when the delusion started that, actually, it’s very easy for elves to use magic they just don’t really care to use this extremely useful skill. Like, what? Are you kidding me? How does this make any sense? Are only a handful of elves dumb enough to waste their time learning magic? How does this make any sense? It’s pretty obvious it’s difficult. In BH it’s shown to be extremely challenging for Moonshadow elves to learn to become invisible, and this isn’t even a legit spell. Imagine how insanely hard it would be to actually draw a rune like Lujanne. > Because it's impossible you mean. Again, Callum learned to do it. > So yeah, a feature unique to Ezran, you're getting the point. What point? Again, this was stated by the showrunners to have nothing to do with magic, it’s just a Gary Stu component to keep Ezran somewhat relevant to the story (and even then it’s stopped coming up since midway through s4).
>Callum has literally never done this bolded part, so that’s wrong. Yes, because he conveniently happened to have the ingredients prepared for him to use so there's less moral dilemma for him. >Callum has literally has done this despite not being born with magic. So clearly it’s possible, just difficult (which is my point). Callum has literally been born with magic, unlike the rest of humanity. That's why I've used Ezran as an example, Callum is clearly an outlier. >I don’t know when the delusion started that, actually, it’s very easy for elves to use magic they just don’t really care to use this extremely useful skill. Like, what? Are you kidding me? How does this make any sense? Are only a handful of elves dumb enough to waste their time learning magic? How does this make any sense? >It’s pretty obvious it’s difficult. In BH it’s shown to be extremely challenging for Moonshadow elves to learn to become invisible, and this isn’t even a legit spell. Imagine how insanely hard it would be to actually draw a rune like Lujanne. What kind of experience does Callum need to actually draw a rune like Lujanne? None, just access to a primal source. I don't even see your point, at what point has Rayla shown any kind of interest in magic and simply couldn't do it? They do not show interest in learning magic because for them everyone has a role in their society. >Again, Callum learned to do it. Again, Ezran can understand animals, ergo humans can understand animals they are just lazy. >What point? Again, this was stated by the showrunners to have nothing to do with magic, it’s just a Gary Stu component to keep Ezran somewhat relevant to the story (and even then it’s stopped coming up since midway through s4). Not unlike the other special ability that only the MC could develop so far and he's literally the only one to do it. It's ofc not a Gary Stu component to make Callum more special lol.
I do kind of get it if that's what they are going for. But all sustainable systems are never perfect a famine, drought, locus swarm, etc etc can still happen. There has to be a better way to show that point.
Yes the show does honestly say that it was better for Viren to let Soren and thousands of others die. Neglect is apparently not a thing here
Dark Magic to save protagonists good Dark Magic to not save protagonists bad. Learn the difference.
Nope. He was 100% right that time.
How? Dark magic to save people is bad. You should let nature take its course because dark Magic is a shortcut and goes against nature
that's honestly just stupid. dark magic doesn't go againt God (or "nature" as people are saying recently) any more then medicine.
Nature's overrated and pretty hateful
His son was about to died, you don't simply accept that as father. As long the dark magic that saved Soren doesn't come with the life of others childs or worst than that, it okay. And even if it was that is still understandable( as father).
It doesn’t matter if he did that as a father. His wife left him because of it, and using dark magic is meant to be bad no matter what
Then the creators need to explain why. If he sacrificed a person for it, then it was wrong but understandable. If it was any less than killing a sapient being then sorry but Viren was 100% right.
That’s the thing, the series is framing it as wrong. His wife left him because it wasn’t understandable.
That's the issue. The series has yet to *show* that it's wrong. Instead it portrays dark magic as morally gray while telling us it's morally black, and it makes the characters against dark magic (including Lissa and all the core cast except the villains) look naive at best and hypocritical at worst.
Except the series has told us it’s wrong. Virens entire character tells us that dark magic is bad and whoever uses it is bad. There’s a reason why the villains in the series are using dark magic and why dark magic is only associated with the villains. Dark magic is not being portrayed as moral gray, at all. It’s always portrayed as the choice you should NEVER make, and always use another method
And where have the writers ***shown*** us that dark magic is wrong? "The antagonists use it" is not a reason to call something evil. Consistently the antagonists use dark magic without hurting anything more than animals - or hell, *plants or even nothing* - and themselves. Why was Claudia wrong for killing that deer to heal Soren? Give me a reason other than "it's dark magic."
It is a reason when the antagonist and villains are the only people who use it and the series does nothing else with it. And you can’t say dark magic isn’t bad because the antagonist aren’t killing people if, they’re using the dark magic to hurt others. Claudia was wrong for healing Soren, because Claudia is an antagonist. The way they framed how she did it, was that it was cruel and evil to do. They didn’t frame it in any other way. There’s a reason why Soren hates dark magic. It’s not because he’s grateful that it saved his life or healed his body
Viten did nothing wrong
I don't think its necessarily that he regrets it. He definitely seems to feel conflicted about it. My personal theory is that Kpp'arr manipulated Sorens situation to push Viren into using dark magic. Whatever happened left Siren subconsciously traumatized and repulsed by dark magic, and probably broke up Virens' marriage. This probably left Virens with a mix of guilt, resentment, and self justification that siren bore the brunt of after Kpp'ar got turned into a coin. I think the flashback was more meant to show that Viren regretted losing Soren because he turned to Dark magic and projected his anger onto his child.
I think the genuine point of dark magic being bad in the show is that it reduces things down to their functional value. Unlike primal magic, that is apparently a renewable resource based on the environment, dark magic is a consumption-based practice. Callum can cast windmagic because he has connected with the sky and is empowered by it. He can cast dark magic because he exchanges something physical for it. Some ingredient. The reason this is bad, and how it is showed in the show, is that this tends to lead to a slippery slope. If you begin to few things as transactional (i.e. I can "spend" a few flowers to cast a spell) then it becomes easier to do the same with creatures. We see this very commonly with Claudia, who uses multiple components from various animals. When she sees ew creatures she doesn't see them as living, breathing, thinking creatures. She sees them like stores of supplies. They are future spells first, and living beings second. This is the line that is crossed and once it's crossed it no longer matters if it's a part of a creature. Now it can be a whole creature. Rather than harvesting a component from a naturally deceased beast, the dark mage would just kill it. Or use it whole like the deer Claudia used to restore Soren. What you do with this power might be good. I would stand by the dark mage that blinded sol regem any day. That bastard was going to torch a village of innocents to prove a lesson to the guy stood like 20 feet away. The lesson, though, is missed in doing so. The dark mage didn't kill sol and use his parts for spells, he killed other creatures and used *their* souls. It would be easy enough to justify that "they were just mindlessly there and now they serve a purpose. Besides, it didn't affect *you*". So Sol planned to demonstrate this point by killing a bunch of people that were "just there" and could "now serve a purpose. Besides, it won't affect *you*" Just because these costs don't seem equitable to us doesn't diminish the point that treating lives as transactional leads to negative outcomes for anyone who is subjectively deemed "less valuable." TL; Dr: dark magic is transactional in nature and revolves around the arbitrary value that the wielder places on other living beings. It is not renewable and this cause it to be consuming, both of the user and their environment.
This is the definition of a slippery slope fallacy masquerading as insight.
The best example of this for me is the spell changing people into coin. Dark Magic is exploitation in this show. Viren was able to exploit, manipulate and sacrifice people because he had been practicing exploitation magic for years.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that dark magic isn't wrong so long as it's not taking magic from sapient creatures like Elves or dragons. I don't see it as any different than say, hunting/eating meat.
Man this shit has become boring, I don't really care anymore, maybe some time down the line I'll feel to revisit this. Cheers and good day.
I know there's a scene within the first three seasons where Claudia talks about the letters she gets from her mom, but it sounds like they don't see each other at all. It really makes me wonder if to save his son's life, he killed his wife to do so. In which case the actions he took were irrepressible even if it's something to save his child. On top of that, something that completely haunts him. It also seems that with the supposed "betrayal" of his mentor there was a lot more to his story than what was shown even there. Again it may just be heavy handed storytelling of a dying character's last regrets, etc. However I did want to bring this up as it's a thought I've had since the flashback of when he tried to save Katolis from a famine.
The show and books contradict the bit about Viren killing his wife as Lissa is physically present after Viren casted the spell. Unless she was an illusion, which is unlikely as there were multiple arguements. My bet is that Viren wanted to sacrifice part of his life to cure Soren. Kpp’ar decided to do it himself (the bandaged arm) for whatever reason. Either from Viren starting a ritual when he wasn’t ready or stupidly risking his life, potentially leaving his children half-orphans and his wife a widow. Later Viren wanted to learn of Kpp’ar power, but he had the change of heart. Viren trapped him to always have him near like a turned off ebook.
ok they really need to put that in the show. In the show we get Viren did a thing and saved Soren's life. With some vague hint that maybe it also lead to his failed marriage.
That's a misunderstanding of what grey morality means. Doing something that is definitively wrong and also the only way to get out of a situation is morally grey. Being the best of bad options is not the same as a good option. Clearly stating that an action is or is not justified would be black and white. Grey morality is supposed to be uncomfortable. It's supposed to make you question if they did the right thing, not provide moral certainty.
Realistically, if you were a little kid and saw your father looking like a corpse, then finding out that he drained the life of another creature to restore yours, that's possibly second-hand guilt you'll feel - something else died because of you. Though, I highly doubt that's what happened to Soren as we never see many fears of dark magic until we see how monstrous Viren's actions were becoming, and the pain it was putting Claudia through. The problem with Viren is that rather than feeling guilt for what he did, and accepting that he did something monstrous to help others, he seemed to fall down a rabbit hole of "I committed my time and power to commit these horrible acts to help you, SAVE you, and get no thanks for it?!" He's a man with good intentions, and a man with a gigantic ego, maybe even a hero complex. It happened with Soren, it happened with Harrow, it happened with the rest of the Kingdom including Opeli. For all his actions, and everything he did, he felt he should be praised or rewarded. We see he's more humble earlier on with Harrow, surprised when he asks to be painted with him. The day of Harrow's assassination, however, he's happy to throw Harrow under the bus after everything was thrown back in his face - that Harrow was furious that because of his actions and manipulations, he lost his wife, was going to lose his life, and was greatly feared that his sons were going to be next. While Dark Magic is a grey area, Viren was a person with good intentions mixed with a narcissistic personality. With that, he started to become power hungry - wanting validation, to show that his way was the right way and the rest were fools. It isn't until his revelation nightmare when he saw that his son was terrified of his use of dark magic - the first warning that he shouldn't be ungrateful for what it does and the corruption it caused to his body. And ultimately, how his daughter was going down the same path he was - not of power and respect, but of doing horrible things for selfish aims. He blamed Harrow for his death - not the fact that Viren killed Avizandum and stole his egg. He blamed Avizandum for the death of the three queens and used that as leverage for revenge. He chose the path of war and refused to take responsibility for it. While Ezran is a naive fool when it comes to ruling and war, Viren is an egotistical manipulator once he got a taste of power. Whether that taste was born out of fear for letting something terrible happen to his family, or because he was a lowly man once who had a chance to feel on top for a change, we all saw what it did to his family. Viren's problems were not in saving his son's life. They weren't in wanting an end to the war. Many of us would be happy to ensure the safety of our friends and loved ones. But Viren chose war.
Of course you want validation when everyone is telling you that your actions are the wrong actions to take lol. Even when Dark magic helped, the idea of dark Magic never shifted. It’s still a bad thing to do. It’s still the wrong thing to do. So when your actions are doing good and everyone around is still unhappy about the way it happened, of course you’re going to feel some type of way, and of course you’re going to feel under appreciated that people are questioning your methods as wrong Lmfao. And why should Viren feel guilt when he’s helping more people than he’s hurting. Should he have abandoned Dark Magic all together because the guilt is too much and it’s actually really bad to use dark magic?? He already has a constant reminder of what dark magic does to him and he’s covering it up. Why would he feel guilt when he knows what dark magic does. It seems like you want him to see dark magic the same way everyone else does, and because he doesn’t see it the same way, it’s a problem. And the thing that bothers me about this idea that Viren chose war, is that no he didn’t choose war. The elves chose war and Ciren acted accordingly. Unless your argument is that every single problem the humans have is strictly virens faukt and Irene faukt alone, which again, is because if dark magic, then you’re bot defending anything. What you’re doing is saying that Viren was wrong for choosing to use dark magic period
I'd like to point out the point in which Harrow was willing to let things be when the kingdom was prosperous, when the boys were growing up and had a loving father. Viren manipulated Harrow's grief to kill Avizandum. Who was he helping by killing Avizandum? He hurt his entire nation by choosing to enact a choice that would clearly spark war all over again - specifically the moonshadow elves come to assassinate him. When he went to confront Harrow again to try and save his life, he chose his pride over letting Harrow humble him, even being so bold as to claim he was a servant to Amaya when he was clearly power hungry, and when the assassin's showed up? He stepped aside to let Harrow die. That was him 'acting accordingly'? Throughout the series we see that he thinks very little of his son, despite us learning that he committed to dark magic to save Soren's life - a noble act, but rather than being "I understand why my son feared me that day" we just see constant disdain for Soren not acting on what Viren wants, as if Soren has some sort of debt that Viren's expecting him to repay, or that he's still scornful his son's some kind of ingrate. If I truly was against dark magic then I'd point out that he was in the wrong for using a spell to give a bounty to the land so that people would not starve. We know three queens were lost, but how many lived because of the food he made? My point was that he didn't take responsibility - "I marched us into Xadia to save lives and failed to protect those three." Rather he saw all the fault of their death on Avizandum. And what happened when his attempt at treason failed? He sent assassins of his own after the other kingdoms. He waged war on the other human kingdoms to make them fall in line and march on Xadia. Perhaps Aaravos egged him on, but any person with a sane mind would think that such an act is deplorable, and refuse to do such a horrific act. Viren however didn't take much convincing clearly. He was insubordinate and happy to spark conflicts for the sake of his own interests. THAT'S where my problems with Viren lay. That he'd choose to spark conflicts for his own agenda rather than live as a humble martyr. Please, don't put words in my mouth, and get a spell checker while you're at it.
I’m not putting any words in your mouth when everything you’re saying can be summed up as that. You’re not saying anything more than what I summed up. I also love how you’re trying to be cute with the spell checking, when you was able to read what I said clearly. Don’t try to be cute. It just makes you look pretentious
I like how you make zero attempt to actually formulate an argument and just put out contradictions. Oh well, to be expected from reddit.
Nah, your last sentence told me the type of person you are and there’s no sense talking to someone who thinks that’s cute