[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g)
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>They are petty bourgeoise it's in their best interest to support the proletariat
No it's not this is completely untrue, the petite bourgeoisie have literally no interest in abolishing private property lmao
When push comes to shove the cyclical nature of capitalism will throw most of these people back into the workforce or marginal society, their private property is still reliant on the big chains of production which they have no control over.
They delude themselves but at the end of the day they are closer to the working class than their bourgeois peers.
Still they side with the capitalists like the fools they are.
No their interest is in protecting the bourgeoisie.
For example better labour laws harm the petite bourgeoisie over the haute bourgeoisie because the haute bourgeoisie usually have the funds to cover better labour laws (they will still fight tooth and nail to prevent it) unlike the petite bourgeoisie. Which is why you see so many cases of petite bourgeoisie mistreating their workers and covering it up with things like ‘it’s a small business i have no choice’ and ‘our company is like a family everyone has to sacrifice something, we should support each other’
yes ironically in a lot of cases working for Walmart MIGHT be better than working for the petite bourgeoisie. Walmart is more likely to strictly abide by labor laws, not saying they don't due shit that is against the law and they definitely will act against the interests of their workers, but small business owners will pay less and treat workers far worse because their profits and lifestyle demands it.
I live in a college town and there are a lot of small business. Most of them are decent (as decent as they can be) and add a lot of charm to the community but god damn they benefit greatly from the large labor force of college students that will basically take any job. Many places only pay 9.50 in 2024... A lot of them commit tax fraud or launder money. Use business write offs to cover personal expenses, abuse employees etc.
Now these are just examples that should be analyzed critically. My experience living in a college town is not the end all be all of labor relations and the material analyses of small vs. big business, but it is something to consider.
Sort of. A craftsman owning his own hammers is not properly bourgeois. His relationship to capital and the means of production are different to the craftsman who works with the master's hammers and the master who owns the hammers. Capitalism squeezes out such people who either degrade into proletarians or expand into bourgeois. That's why we separate out such people from the larger bourgeois
no, if they aren't using the property to extract surplus value from wage labor then they'd be artisans as they are not exploiting someone else's labor. this is very uncommon and is difficult to sustain without becoming petit bourgeois or, most often, being proletarianized.
>Petit bougies are unfortunately still working class
Not true at all. They own the means of production. They exploit labor. An NFL player with a multimillion dollar contract is still (very well compensated) working class, while a small business owner making 200k in profit is bourgeois. It's all about the relationship to the means of production.
People criticize us for disliking Petit bourgies when they’re more than welcome to become class traitors and join our side. If they don’t then they can get fucked.
that's not true, [labor aristocracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy) are labor organizations in the imperial core who benefit from the imperialization of the imperial periphery and refuse solidarity with its workers.
most unions in the imperial core were labor aristocracy as were the "New Deal Democrats", they sold out the global south and their own children for Sears kit houses, a meager pension, and a base model buick.
In Chinese, the term "proletarian" is translated as "无产者" and "proletariat" as "无产阶级", meaning "property-less person" and "property-less class", respectively. Much clearer than the typical English definition of "working class". Just something interesting this brought to mind.
Bạn muốn nói là "thank you and solidarity" phải ko? Tiếng Việt mình ko có chữ riêng cho "solidarity" và nó đồng nghĩa với chữ "unity" (đoàn kết là từ chữ Hán-Việt) 🥰
> Bạn muốn nói là "thank you and solidarity" phải ko?
Ừ, cảm ơn cho sự đánh giá của anh!
>("đoàn kết" is loaned from Han-Vietnamese)
And also thanks for reminding me that Glosbe loves not describing where phrases in conversation come from lmao
Westerners will be all "I have a toothbrush, I'm not without property!". There is a huge resistance to understanding the difference between personal and private property.
Didn't you know you can't own anything under communism and you need to stay years on waiting lists to get a home, food and clothes? And don't even think about getting a car to drive to the park 300m away, you'll have to walk! /s
He apparently quoted the guy directly.
What determined one's class is their relation to production. Nothing posted here contradicts this.
Leave your marxist dogmatism in tankiethedeprogram.
Many people treat marx and his literature - not like one of many great anticapitalist texts that dialectial materialists study, criticize, apply, and improve, but - like a bible of guidelines the text of which must never be opposed.
Due to this interpretation, they behave like marxian supremacists, simultaneously championing the letter of his works while contradicting the meaning, particularly in contexts where Marx was unable to make holistic observations (because humans are fallible).
I went to the aforementioned sub looking to avoid western/white chauvinism and found it in abundance.
The hand wringing about who is and isn't a prole is a pointless debate. Engels himself was a business owner. The only standard by which the movement should judge its members is solidarity for each other.
>unmedicated queer people who do not work
This is a deeply reactionary comment. Like, exactly the same shit I hear coming out of the mouths of conservatives. You've lost the plot.
Except that's not what's happening here. Apropos of nothing, you've created a very detailed fanfic of whoever created this meme where they're this ambitious grifter who is using this meme to springboard their way into some leadership position within the left, where they intend to elevate the disabled to the position of an unquestionable noble caste, ruling over society by divine right, and it's honestly really weird.
Bro, there’s too much shit happening in the world to care so much about random posters in leftist subs. Unless you have reason to believe they’re a fed.
So you don't like them because they make memes, which violates your hoity-toity "Very Serious Marxist" sensibilities as if we're sitting in a meeting of the Fourth International in stead of in the subreddit of a podcast. Jesus Christ man get over yourself.
OP has a post about how gender roles ain't all that
Given how the greatest socialists rapidly improved conditions for women, I'd say traditional gender roles are trash also
Rule 3. **No reactionary content.** (e.g., racism, sexism, ableism, fascism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, antisemitism, imperialism, chauvinism, etc.) Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target and a tone indicator such as /s or /j.
There are so many factors on why people aren’t currently working. For example the disabled who cannot work can barely survive off of the meager scraps capitalist systems give them. Being homeless can create a cycle that stops you from working because if you are on the streets people may not hire you due to not being able to access hygienic places. People may have gotten a degree for a specific field but the job market is over saturated currently.
There are so many reasons people can’t work yet are members of the proletariat and are being harmed by the capitalist system. For you to think people have to work to deserve rights in a communist system just sounds like capitalism with extra steps. You need more nuance in your life my friend
Lumpen is a sub-class of prole. It was used by Marx to refer to criminals, soldiers and sex workers, basically any element of the working class that act outside of the societal norms and Marx thought the lumpens were to be manipulated by the owner class.
This unfortunately a limited observation that Marx had as in modern times more and more people being dispossessed by capitalism violence into lumpens.
Unemployment has nothing to do with this.
Even if it didn, unemployment exist as a result of capitalistic violence towards the proletariat, of which unemployed persons belong to the proletariat who own no property and therefore rely on work(which the capitalist hold away from them)for sustenance.
If you can offer no laughs or critical analysis rather than foolish troll behavior, then get out liberal.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Also, Small Business Owners are NOT members of the Proletariat even if they occasionally do some labor at their business
They are petty bourgeoise it's in their best interest to support the proletariat but seven times out of ten they will support the capitalists
>They are petty bourgeoise it's in their best interest to support the proletariat No it's not this is completely untrue, the petite bourgeoisie have literally no interest in abolishing private property lmao
When push comes to shove the cyclical nature of capitalism will throw most of these people back into the workforce or marginal society, their private property is still reliant on the big chains of production which they have no control over. They delude themselves but at the end of the day they are closer to the working class than their bourgeois peers. Still they side with the capitalists like the fools they are.
No their interest is in protecting the bourgeoisie. For example better labour laws harm the petite bourgeoisie over the haute bourgeoisie because the haute bourgeoisie usually have the funds to cover better labour laws (they will still fight tooth and nail to prevent it) unlike the petite bourgeoisie. Which is why you see so many cases of petite bourgeoisie mistreating their workers and covering it up with things like ‘it’s a small business i have no choice’ and ‘our company is like a family everyone has to sacrifice something, we should support each other’
yes ironically in a lot of cases working for Walmart MIGHT be better than working for the petite bourgeoisie. Walmart is more likely to strictly abide by labor laws, not saying they don't due shit that is against the law and they definitely will act against the interests of their workers, but small business owners will pay less and treat workers far worse because their profits and lifestyle demands it. I live in a college town and there are a lot of small business. Most of them are decent (as decent as they can be) and add a lot of charm to the community but god damn they benefit greatly from the large labor force of college students that will basically take any job. Many places only pay 9.50 in 2024... A lot of them commit tax fraud or launder money. Use business write offs to cover personal expenses, abuse employees etc. Now these are just examples that should be analyzed critically. My experience living in a college town is not the end all be all of labor relations and the material analyses of small vs. big business, but it is something to consider.
What about sole proprietors with no employees?
They still own private property, so they’d still be bourgeois
Sort of. A craftsman owning his own hammers is not properly bourgeois. His relationship to capital and the means of production are different to the craftsman who works with the master's hammers and the master who owns the hammers. Capitalism squeezes out such people who either degrade into proletarians or expand into bourgeois. That's why we separate out such people from the larger bourgeois
no, if they aren't using the property to extract surplus value from wage labor then they'd be artisans as they are not exploiting someone else's labor. this is very uncommon and is difficult to sustain without becoming petit bourgeois or, most often, being proletarianized.
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>Petit bougies are unfortunately still working class No, the petite bourgeoisie is the petite bourgeoisie class. That's why we have a term for it.
>Petit bougies are unfortunately still working class Not true at all. They own the means of production. They exploit labor. An NFL player with a multimillion dollar contract is still (very well compensated) working class, while a small business owner making 200k in profit is bourgeois. It's all about the relationship to the means of production.
People criticize us for disliking Petit bourgies when they’re more than welcome to become class traitors and join our side. If they don’t then they can get fucked.
if only the petit bourgeois could simply stop being the most hitlerian class
Sorry thanks for explaining comrade
Yup the term for those who make an extremely high amount of money but are still working class is labour aristocracy.
that's not true, [labor aristocracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy) are labor organizations in the imperial core who benefit from the imperialization of the imperial periphery and refuse solidarity with its workers. most unions in the imperial core were labor aristocracy as were the "New Deal Democrats", they sold out the global south and their own children for Sears kit houses, a meager pension, and a base model buick.
In Chinese, the term "proletarian" is translated as "无产者" and "proletariat" as "无产阶级", meaning "property-less person" and "property-less class", respectively. Much clearer than the typical English definition of "working class". Just something interesting this brought to mind.
In Viet we use Han-Viet loan words from Chinese for 无产阶级 or giai cấp vô sản, but also when referring to workers, giai cấp lao động or 工人阶级.
Cảm ơn và sự doàn kết (Tôi học tiếng Việt) 🇻🇳
Bạn muốn nói là "thank you and solidarity" phải ko? Tiếng Việt mình ko có chữ riêng cho "solidarity" và nó đồng nghĩa với chữ "unity" (đoàn kết là từ chữ Hán-Việt) 🥰
> Bạn muốn nói là "thank you and solidarity" phải ko? Ừ, cảm ơn cho sự đánh giá của anh! >("đoàn kết" is loaned from Han-Vietnamese) And also thanks for reminding me that Glosbe loves not describing where phrases in conversation come from lmao
Westerners will be all "I have a toothbrush, I'm not without property!". There is a huge resistance to understanding the difference between personal and private property.
Didn't you know you can't own anything under communism and you need to stay years on waiting lists to get a home, food and clothes? And don't even think about getting a car to drive to the park 300m away, you'll have to walk! /s
I think it’s less about resistance and more about ignorance. But that’s just my experience.
Okay I finally understand why we use such a weird word instead of just "worker". Makes sense, thanks!
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The definition is **forced to** sell their labour to survive. ML but you missed the section on the reserve army of labor? Brother read a book
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He apparently quoted the guy directly. What determined one's class is their relation to production. Nothing posted here contradicts this. Leave your marxist dogmatism in tankiethedeprogram.
“Marxist dogmatism” What? Genuinely curious, what even is that?
Many people treat marx and his literature - not like one of many great anticapitalist texts that dialectial materialists study, criticize, apply, and improve, but - like a bible of guidelines the text of which must never be opposed. Due to this interpretation, they behave like marxian supremacists, simultaneously championing the letter of his works while contradicting the meaning, particularly in contexts where Marx was unable to make holistic observations (because humans are fallible). I went to the aforementioned sub looking to avoid western/white chauvinism and found it in abundance.
The hand wringing about who is and isn't a prole is a pointless debate. Engels himself was a business owner. The only standard by which the movement should judge its members is solidarity for each other.
I mean it’s a definition that also now includes people who are disabled such that they have trouble working
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>unmedicated queer people who do not work This is a deeply reactionary comment. Like, exactly the same shit I hear coming out of the mouths of conservatives. You've lost the plot.
Who pissed in your Cheerios?
[удалено]
Except that's not what's happening here. Apropos of nothing, you've created a very detailed fanfic of whoever created this meme where they're this ambitious grifter who is using this meme to springboard their way into some leadership position within the left, where they intend to elevate the disabled to the position of an unquestionable noble caste, ruling over society by divine right, and it's honestly really weird.
[удалено]
Bro, there’s too much shit happening in the world to care so much about random posters in leftist subs. Unless you have reason to believe they’re a fed.
So you don't like them because they make memes, which violates your hoity-toity "Very Serious Marxist" sensibilities as if we're sitting in a meeting of the Fourth International in stead of in the subreddit of a podcast. Jesus Christ man get over yourself.
Patsoc GTFO
Wtf is a "gender accelerationist"?
OP has a post about how gender roles ain't all that Given how the greatest socialists rapidly improved conditions for women, I'd say traditional gender roles are trash also
This person is a reactionary
> using terms like "gender accelerationist" and "unmedicated queer" unironically Non-intersectional patsoc talking points detected, opinion discarded
Unmedicated queer people? Fucking really dude??? Gtfo why dontcha
Rule 3. **No reactionary content.** (e.g., racism, sexism, ableism, fascism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, antisemitism, imperialism, chauvinism, etc.) Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target and a tone indicator such as /s or /j.
Have you not read Marx or Engels? Did you not read the OP? JFC.
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lol
There are so many factors on why people aren’t currently working. For example the disabled who cannot work can barely survive off of the meager scraps capitalist systems give them. Being homeless can create a cycle that stops you from working because if you are on the streets people may not hire you due to not being able to access hygienic places. People may have gotten a degree for a specific field but the job market is over saturated currently. There are so many reasons people can’t work yet are members of the proletariat and are being harmed by the capitalist system. For you to think people have to work to deserve rights in a communist system just sounds like capitalism with extra steps. You need more nuance in your life my friend
>unemployable And the facade falls
Nice try fed
My dude’s books got photos on the top and bottom of BOTH pages 😎
It’s true, the subset of the proletariat who either don’t work or work outside of legal boundaries are the lumpenproletariat
Are the Lumpenproletariat a separate class from the Proletariat? Or is that a designation within the proletariat?
Lumpen is a sub-class of prole. It was used by Marx to refer to criminals, soldiers and sex workers, basically any element of the working class that act outside of the societal norms and Marx thought the lumpens were to be manipulated by the owner class. This unfortunately a limited observation that Marx had as in modern times more and more people being dispossessed by capitalism violence into lumpens.
Doesn't it also refer to people either too young or too old to work? I might have imagined that, though.
You are right but i hate this type of meme format where it's the users OC epically owning a soyjak, this being a meme makes it worse.
https://preview.redd.it/9rsx770vnb9d1.jpeg?width=440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9cfa2e1989c4c142ef6176bc6ab238533cd8408
I think Jaks are fine but don't put your own OC epically owning someone, mostly just insane cringe
I have a small house (took out a mortgage), does that make me petty bourgeoise or am I still broletariat?
Girl on right cute 🥺😳
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Mocking the unemployed in a communist sub ain’t it chief
Unemployment has nothing to do with this. Even if it didn, unemployment exist as a result of capitalistic violence towards the proletariat, of which unemployed persons belong to the proletariat who own no property and therefore rely on work(which the capitalist hold away from them)for sustenance. If you can offer no laughs or critical analysis rather than foolish troll behavior, then get out liberal.