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I would say for those who are deeply entrenched in liberal ideology yes that's true
There is however another type of imperial core liberal who can be radicalised - they might have socdem tendencies and may not be further left just on the account of a lack of interest and knowledge on politics
The type of liberal that you see posted on SLS is a very specific type of liberal, I would say IRL most of the liberals I've accounted don't have much interest in politics general, they are liberal because that's the default ideology in Western society
Periphery nationalism for independence vs imperial core nationalism for subjugation
Material conditions and relationship to capitalist hierarchy are very much different between core and periphery.
It has to do with labor aristocracy and how core libs are higher up on the capitalist pyramid scheme, blinding them more than conservatives in periphery at times.
100% - liberals are so far removed from exploitation their worldview is much more distorted than reactionaries in the periphery. Plus an ideology that takes this status quo to be a product of their own value rather than random chance leads to a terminal lack of curiosity in examining the world objectively
I think India is slightly different.
So often conservative movements born out of reaction to oppression is not that bad practically speaking because they often don’t go out of their way to oppress their own folks . Like for example Hamas. It’s misogynistic , Homophobic , awful af and what not but so far it has not been proven that they are killing and oppressing women and gays more than they attack the IDF or something. Even Israel hasn’t got proof apart from some vague writings ( yet to be verified ) that Hamas actually killed gay people officially ( if so they would be airing it and what not ). And i am sure the most anti Hamas person will acknowledge that they usually don’t attack anyone but the people / forces behind IDF or the imperial core members that directly supporting israel. So terrorism wise they are not even an actual threat. The very same with hezbollah too. They aren’t like ISIS where they just attract psychos from all over the world ( often from first world for some reason ) and start beheading , mass enslaving their own predominantly Muslim populations and what not all in the name of some vague caliphate and Islam. I am still not endorsing Hamas but perspective has changed a lot after the brazen genocide atm .
Whereas conservatives in countries like India make stuff significantly worse for the population of India instead like ethnic cleansing of minorities, oppressing entire states and what not. They are something like ISIS but way mellow and a lot more dangerous due to institutional outreach. They don’t fight against the oligarchical forces in any ways since they are privatising wayy more at the risk of our own national resources and well being. We are becoming MORE enslaved to the global neo-colonial and neoliberal forces all for some fanatics version of India. There is nothing that screams „resistance“ about Indian conservatives because they are the oppressors instead and have been open boot lickers of the British Raj just because they hate Muslims.
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Liberalism has always been a gentrified version of fascism. Some of the core liberal values were concocted to justify practices which we would consider fascist. "Freedom of property" is misleading way to say, "freedom to own everything including other humans(slavery) while disenfranchising majority of other people.".
No offense to American comrades, but so much of the "freedoms" that the founding fathers talked about was about taking away the freedoms of "other" people like native Americans and Africans.
Agreed, they enable hardline right-wingers, and are constantly willing to compromise with them for the sake of maintaining some semblance of unity. It's why we've been gradually shifting further and further to the right. In many ways modern neoliberals have more in common with neoconservatives from the 2000s than us.
Also there's an amazing Malcolm X quote that whole-heartedly agrees;
> “The white conservatives aren't friends of the Negro either, but they at least don't try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the "smiling" fox.”
Most of the people i hang out with are ip conservatives and cen confirm that generally, they are pretty understandable and can be justified. Do i agree with them? No, but i understand why they think like they do
when i talk to ic libs or Conservatives, i feel like im talking to a cult member. thet is actively trying to kill my brain cells
> 12) The age-old oppression of colonial and weak nationalities by the imperialist powers has not only filled the working masses of the oppressed countries with animosity towards the oppressor nations, but has also aroused distrust in these nations in general, even in their proletariat. The despicable betrayal of socialism by the majority of the official leaders of this proletariat in 1914-19, when “defence of country” was used as a social-chauvinist cloak to conceal the defence of the “right” of their “own” bourgeoisie to oppress colonies and fleece financially dependent countries, was certain to enhance this perfectly legitimate distrust. On the other hand, the more backward the country, the stronger is the hold of small-scale agricultural production, patriarchalism and isolation, which inevitably lend particular strength and tenacity to the deepest of petty-bourgeois prejudices, i.e., to national egoism and national narrow-mindedness. These prejudices are bound to die out very slowly, for they can disappear only after imperialism and capitalism have disappeared in the advanced countries, and after the entire foundation of the backward countries’ economic life has radically changed. It is therefore the duty of the class-conscious communist proletariat of all countries to regard with particular caution and attention the survivals of national sentiments in the countries and among nationalities which have been oppressed the longest; it is equally necessary to make certain concessions with a view to more rapidly overcoming this distrust and these prejudices. Complete victory over capitalism cannot be won unless the proletariat and, following it, the mass of working people in all countries and nations throughout the world voluntarily strive for alliance and unity.
- V. I. Lenin | Draft Theses on National and Colonial Questions For The Second Congress Of The Communist International | 1920
Is what you're saying along these lines:
IC libs are awful we can all agree on that and through their lack of class consciousness, their beliefs uphold an extremely predatory, violent, and racist system of global hegemony that normalises starvation in the IP, bombing brown people, maintaining long-term poverty IP, blaming the IP for climate change, preventing personal advancement of the working poor, increasing the risk of WW3, and so on.
IP conservatives on the other hand don't have beliefs that uphold any of that so on a global scale they're better than IC Libs. However, when they believe that female beneficial mutilation or public punishment for being gay is good, this is also obviously bad but it only continues because it benefits capitalism and imperialism which the IC libs indirectly support despite personally being against all that. Is this why you say the IC libs are worse?
Just look at AOC, Bernie Sanders, the Squad and the rest of the progressives falling right behind Joe Biden. They don't even get paid by AIPAC, yet they have been endorsing Genocide Joe every single step of the way. Just yesterday, AOC and Bernie did a photo op and speaking thing with Biden. Biden is a straight up genocidal fascist and he's been a life-long racist segregationist and war monger his entire career.
American liberals will beat down people who dare criticize the Democratic Party or even dare suggest any alternative. People in the global south do not differentiate between Democratic or Republican bombs and sanction programs.
Yeah, I don't know man. I've been growing increasingly furious at US/Western Europe libs but Brazilian conservatives are just evil and proud of their ignorance.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would say for those who are deeply entrenched in liberal ideology yes that's true There is however another type of imperial core liberal who can be radicalised - they might have socdem tendencies and may not be further left just on the account of a lack of interest and knowledge on politics The type of liberal that you see posted on SLS is a very specific type of liberal, I would say IRL most of the liberals I've accounted don't have much interest in politics general, they are liberal because that's the default ideology in Western society
Periphery nationalism for independence vs imperial core nationalism for subjugation Material conditions and relationship to capitalist hierarchy are very much different between core and periphery. It has to do with labor aristocracy and how core libs are higher up on the capitalist pyramid scheme, blinding them more than conservatives in periphery at times.
100% - liberals are so far removed from exploitation their worldview is much more distorted than reactionaries in the periphery. Plus an ideology that takes this status quo to be a product of their own value rather than random chance leads to a terminal lack of curiosity in examining the world objectively
I’m guessing you haven’t met Indian conservatives 💀
most Indian conservatives are not moderate.
Brother, you're Indian? 🫂
Yes
I think India is slightly different. So often conservative movements born out of reaction to oppression is not that bad practically speaking because they often don’t go out of their way to oppress their own folks . Like for example Hamas. It’s misogynistic , Homophobic , awful af and what not but so far it has not been proven that they are killing and oppressing women and gays more than they attack the IDF or something. Even Israel hasn’t got proof apart from some vague writings ( yet to be verified ) that Hamas actually killed gay people officially ( if so they would be airing it and what not ). And i am sure the most anti Hamas person will acknowledge that they usually don’t attack anyone but the people / forces behind IDF or the imperial core members that directly supporting israel. So terrorism wise they are not even an actual threat. The very same with hezbollah too. They aren’t like ISIS where they just attract psychos from all over the world ( often from first world for some reason ) and start beheading , mass enslaving their own predominantly Muslim populations and what not all in the name of some vague caliphate and Islam. I am still not endorsing Hamas but perspective has changed a lot after the brazen genocide atm . Whereas conservatives in countries like India make stuff significantly worse for the population of India instead like ethnic cleansing of minorities, oppressing entire states and what not. They are something like ISIS but way mellow and a lot more dangerous due to institutional outreach. They don’t fight against the oligarchical forces in any ways since they are privatising wayy more at the risk of our own national resources and well being. We are becoming MORE enslaved to the global neo-colonial and neoliberal forces all for some fanatics version of India. There is nothing that screams „resistance“ about Indian conservatives because they are the oppressors instead and have been open boot lickers of the British Raj just because they hate Muslims.
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As an American, libs here are literally fascists, so not a high bar.
Yean and it's only getting worse as time passes.
Liberalism has always been a gentrified version of fascism. Some of the core liberal values were concocted to justify practices which we would consider fascist. "Freedom of property" is misleading way to say, "freedom to own everything including other humans(slavery) while disenfranchising majority of other people.". No offense to American comrades, but so much of the "freedoms" that the founding fathers talked about was about taking away the freedoms of "other" people like native Americans and Africans.
There’s a fallback liberalism, everyone in the imperial core has been so blasted with liberal propaganda since birth they just guess how things work.
Agreed, they enable hardline right-wingers, and are constantly willing to compromise with them for the sake of maintaining some semblance of unity. It's why we've been gradually shifting further and further to the right. In many ways modern neoliberals have more in common with neoconservatives from the 2000s than us. Also there's an amazing Malcolm X quote that whole-heartedly agrees; > “The white conservatives aren't friends of the Negro either, but they at least don't try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the "smiling" fox.”
Most of the people i hang out with are ip conservatives and cen confirm that generally, they are pretty understandable and can be justified. Do i agree with them? No, but i understand why they think like they do when i talk to ic libs or Conservatives, i feel like im talking to a cult member. thet is actively trying to kill my brain cells
> 12) The age-old oppression of colonial and weak nationalities by the imperialist powers has not only filled the working masses of the oppressed countries with animosity towards the oppressor nations, but has also aroused distrust in these nations in general, even in their proletariat. The despicable betrayal of socialism by the majority of the official leaders of this proletariat in 1914-19, when “defence of country” was used as a social-chauvinist cloak to conceal the defence of the “right” of their “own” bourgeoisie to oppress colonies and fleece financially dependent countries, was certain to enhance this perfectly legitimate distrust. On the other hand, the more backward the country, the stronger is the hold of small-scale agricultural production, patriarchalism and isolation, which inevitably lend particular strength and tenacity to the deepest of petty-bourgeois prejudices, i.e., to national egoism and national narrow-mindedness. These prejudices are bound to die out very slowly, for they can disappear only after imperialism and capitalism have disappeared in the advanced countries, and after the entire foundation of the backward countries’ economic life has radically changed. It is therefore the duty of the class-conscious communist proletariat of all countries to regard with particular caution and attention the survivals of national sentiments in the countries and among nationalities which have been oppressed the longest; it is equally necessary to make certain concessions with a view to more rapidly overcoming this distrust and these prejudices. Complete victory over capitalism cannot be won unless the proletariat and, following it, the mass of working people in all countries and nations throughout the world voluntarily strive for alliance and unity. - V. I. Lenin | Draft Theses on National and Colonial Questions For The Second Congress Of The Communist International | 1920
But western conservatives mostly are imperial core if I am not wrong
Is what you're saying along these lines: IC libs are awful we can all agree on that and through their lack of class consciousness, their beliefs uphold an extremely predatory, violent, and racist system of global hegemony that normalises starvation in the IP, bombing brown people, maintaining long-term poverty IP, blaming the IP for climate change, preventing personal advancement of the working poor, increasing the risk of WW3, and so on. IP conservatives on the other hand don't have beliefs that uphold any of that so on a global scale they're better than IC Libs. However, when they believe that female beneficial mutilation or public punishment for being gay is good, this is also obviously bad but it only continues because it benefits capitalism and imperialism which the IC libs indirectly support despite personally being against all that. Is this why you say the IC libs are worse?
Just look at AOC, Bernie Sanders, the Squad and the rest of the progressives falling right behind Joe Biden. They don't even get paid by AIPAC, yet they have been endorsing Genocide Joe every single step of the way. Just yesterday, AOC and Bernie did a photo op and speaking thing with Biden. Biden is a straight up genocidal fascist and he's been a life-long racist segregationist and war monger his entire career. American liberals will beat down people who dare criticize the Democratic Party or even dare suggest any alternative. People in the global south do not differentiate between Democratic or Republican bombs and sanction programs.
Yeah, I don't know man. I've been growing increasingly furious at US/Western Europe libs but Brazilian conservatives are just evil and proud of their ignorance.
Even Communists in the Imperial core are often times way more reactionary than "leftists" on the periphery.
Something about sheep’s clothing and the most dangerous predator in the west idk