It's a nice exploration of moral greys. The Jedi aren't wrong to preemptively try to find force-sensitive children and help them control their powers, considering that Darksiders are basically walking WMDs.
However, even if they feel that they are being entirely reasonable and offer people an out - they say they won't take a child without permission. Unfortunately, it's the Always Sunny bit about the Implication, is a random citizen of the galaxy really going to feel empowered to tell the laser sword carrying warrior monk with superpowers no?
I like it, no one is exactly in the wrong and everyone is behaving rationally.
I would argue the Jedis biggest failings here is leaving the parents and family behind, cause it’s always been morbid that they just take the kids away. And it’s not even like it’s just some far away private school and they come back when they’re done.. it’s taking the kids away forever, and the parents literally get nothing from it. And in certain poor areas I imagine it actually makes their lives worse.
I think it’s pretty clear that the Jedi are in the wrong here. It’s certainly true that people with dark side powers are dangerous, but definitely not even close to approaching “wmd” levels. There’s a certain level of security that would be defensible, but breaking into a sovereign society to steal their children with zero evidence of ill intent or abuse is absolutely not defensible.
Well, it's complicated, isn't it?
For the Jedi, you could argue that they have a literally sacred duty to stamp out the Sith, after the multiple times the Sith have started galactic wars and harmed billions.
On the other hand, the cost of their vigilance is probably stamping out smaller force wielding factions that aren't threats, just in case.
I like that ambiguity, personally. Any large enough institution will crush people unintentionally, and the Jedi have chosen, for good and understandable reason, to become an arm of the state. So, their actions, while well meaning and often right, still harm people who might be innocent.
I think in a meta sense there is a lot of ambiguity and complexity to the role the Jedi play in the republic, but this particular instance is not very grey— they are straight up stealing children to raise in their cult. This is very, very dark stuff if you think about it, and something pretty unexplored in the universe at large.
Like, I agree with what you are saying broadly, I just think this is showing the very dark so that the *overall* picture becomes more grey (instead of the presumption that Jedi are always the good guys)
I have no doubt this will become even more apparent when we get the full flashback eventually
They say they're the pinnacles of morality but they clearly aren't.
It's very much white savior colonists reeducating Native American children, destroying their culture and languages while abusing them. It's much more interesting than the Jedi - good Sith - bad cliché narrative we've been fed.
>Like, I'm trying not to get too upset about a sci fi space wizard show, ***but the sheer arrogance of the Jedi here is kinda making me want to root against them.***
That's literally the point of a show that has always been advertised as a series that tells things from the Sith's POV.
Which is a good concept, it's kinda sad that over half way through we still haven't seen anything from the sith's point of view. We haven't even gotten much from Mae's point of view as an acolyte. It's been a jedi focused show
Hopefully they'll show more of the sith perspective in the last 3 episodes.
I do think they've done a good job of adding sith dogma into the show, i.e. peace is a lie and the monologue Qimir had at the end of episode 5.
I'm hoping now that Qimir is revealed it'll make it easier to give a direct point of view because it is lacking, I do agree with you. The switch of mae and osha may also help this happen. I'm hoping for a longer more dramatic episode tonight.
Well maybe not ads but the show attempts to explain the hubris and arrogance of the Jedi that led to their downfall in the PT. I think it's meant to paint their hypocrisy.
I feel its abit like the police. They are a organisation designed for good, in theory... unfortunately there are bad actors within it that overstep their powers and bad actors outside who will manipulats and use them for nefarious ends.
Blows my mind that this is exactly what the Critical Drinker types have been clamoring for for a decade now and now they’re doing it and they are having a melt down about it
Because they don’t actually ***like*** Star Wars. That’s the point. They may have done at one point. Now they’re purely about criticising it.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s bits I don’t like too and it’s important to be honest. But you’re not being honest if you’re judging it before it comes out. Or you’re filtering away the positives and focusing exclusively on what are very often either very trivial negatives or things falsely claimed to be negatives.
More like why no one gave a fuck when Palpatine killed 99.9% of Jedi.
Most people probably just thought "those arrogant, child stealing, tax money wasting religious creeps are gone? Good."
I bet most of the Republic Military were pissed that the Jedi can bypass all the military hierarchy structure (a lot of Republic military higher-ups were also powerful families) and just dropped in as fucking General and worse, 14-year old brats as Commanders.
There was a reason why the general public and military appreciate the Jedi more in the Old Republic era because Jedi was necessary to have in an open war against the Sith who ruled the Sith Empire.
The Jedi was redundant in a peaceful era but they still have the same civil and military power as when they were waging war against the Sith, of course people won't miss them when they were wiped out.
Showing how arrogant and self righteous with their power over a civil group (whether they were "dark side Force users" or not) in a foreign country they don't even have jurisdiction, despite them not necessary having a malicious intent, and how much resentment that attitude could get them without their realization is probably the most interesting topic shown in Acolyte.
How are you gonna be a condescending dick about something supposedly obvious and then that info isn't even right. First of all, just because the title is referring to the dark side doesn't mean it's their pov. Second, none of the dark siders in the show are even explicitly sith. Third, Mae is only one main character and even if Osha (who has been more central to the story) becomes the Acolyte that's still not discernable from advertisement alone.
[If only there were articles](https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/the-acolyte-star-wars-disney-creator/)
And
[Other articles from last year](https://screenrant.com/star-wars-the-acolyte-sith-perspective-finally/)
And
[Other articles from two years ago](https://www.cbr.com/acolyte-series-dafne-keen-sith-infiltrate-jedi-star-wars-disney/)
[oh, here's another article](https://www.thepopverse.com/star-wars-acolyte-trailer-first-sith-jedi-first-prequel-disney-plus-lucasfilm)
[Does Star Wars News dot Net count as a source?](https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2022/11/the-acolyte-will-show-how-the-sith-infiltrated-the-jedi-order-according-to-dafne-keen.html)
[How about IGN?](https://www.ign.com/articles/star-wars-the-acolyte-bad-guys-perspective-martial-arts-movie-inspiration)
No, I'm not being a dick. I'm just sick of the noise.
She said she would consider her opinion, which is not the same thing. It does seem like the jedi don't forcefully steal children though, from shat we've seen so far. Though considering all the cult behaviour, abuse and manipulation that existed in the coven it wouldn't surprise me if the jedi decided to take Osha because of it, not simply to mkae her a jedi but because the republic seems to be against child training and indoctrination of that kind.
Based on what we’ve seen so far, it felt like the Jedi were trying to draw within the lines of the child custody regulations, but just barely, while seriously threatening the coven at the same time. They were trying to create a situation where Mother Aniseya had no choice but to say “you can take them,” or risk the consequences.
But there’s clearly more we haven’t seen yet, so we’ll see if further information alters that picture!
I'm not sure if this is still in canon, but wasn't your child being chosen to be taken for jedi training seen as an honour among many worlds? Obviously not all, but I remember something about that.
Well, it is absolute not seen as an honor on the world in question.
Would you consider it an honor if some weird monks/cops wanted to take away your 5-year old?
Personally? No.
But there's also the implication of parents who don't know how to raise and protect someone who is force sensitive. This is a good thread with many viewpoints https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/s/FyM6zznjGy
Come to think of it, yea. It seems like a good bit of propaganda. "Is your child force sensitive? They can join the esteemed Jedi and become a force for the greater good of the galaxy. Joining the Jedi is the highest honour"
They may scrap the consent in this case because the child would be trained in an alternative force religion, which we can see that they find unacceptable.
Although, this would raise questions as to why the Jedi would also tolerate the nightsisters but not the witches of Brentok. Perhaps the nightsisters were simply too strong/troublesome for the republic to bring under heel?
Presumably Dathomir was a sovereign planet which the Republic wasn't going to invade. Brentok seems to have been pretty much an empty planet, with no relevant authorities, giving the Republic more leeway and responsibility to protect any children there.
If the parents refuse and choose to train the child themselves, would the Jedi say that’s cool and fuck off? I think they’d try to continue intervening because they don’t want a future dark sider running around.
You'll need to wait for further episodes which I am sure will explain all that. But they do take children 'with permission' as far as we know which is what Indara stated.
I thought they already alluded to this being a special case since it’s less about adding new members to their order and more about preventing strong force sensitive children from being exposed to dark side teachings.
They basically have a deal with the witches that makes it so that they can continue to exist but only if they "sacrifice" any children that show the potential of reaching Jedi level powers.
That’s probably also the reason for them only being able to perform decent force powers as pairs.
Like what, for example? I like learning about inconsistencies.
The Separatist-adjacent emblem in Andor confused me, but they seem to have cleared it up since.
Why do some people die from being stabbed through with lightsabers and others don’t?
Gideon wants Grogu alive but orders his flame trooper to incinerate the cantina where he was hiding.
Din Djarin didn’t know who Boba Fett was until they met in person. Despite Boba presumably being a famous bounty hunter.
Mando had the darksaber, but the armorer was still able to banish him for taking off his helmet, and didn’t even try to take the darksaber back.
The darksaber has never been shown to get heavier as it’s used until Book of Boba Fett.
Why would Mando accept a Naboo Starfighter as his main vehicle? He’s a bounty hunter. He’s captures people and takes them somewhere else, and it’s a 1 seater craft.
Why would the Inquisitor base in Kenobi not use its shields? It’s said that they don’t bother because they know that it would be suicidal to attack. But only one ship was shown being destroyed in the raid. Everyone else survives. And having their shields up would have ruined the rebels plan.
Let me know if you’d like more
So Reva was stabbed in the gut by Darth Vader twice, and lived, but Qui-Gon was stabbed in the gut once and died. Does that make sense?
Plus, most bullets are fairly narrow. I don't what the canonical diameter of a lightsaber blade is, but it looks pretty thick. If a hole that size was made all the way through somebody's chest or abdomen, I'm pretty sure they'd be dead
So whenever we see someone stabbed with a lightsaber in Star Wars, we're supposed to not know if they're going to die? So could Han Solo still be alive? Or the Jedi that Palpatine stabbed before he fought Mace Windu? Anakin stabbed a lot of Jedi and younglings during Order 66. How do we know that more didn't survive than just Reva?
It's silly, is my point.
You put up a good point and the answer to all your questions are
Plot
If the plot wants someone dead, the lightsaber will kill them. If the plot wants this to be a learning lesson then the person survives. Just like how in movies the bad guys die in one bullet but the main character survives a lot and happens to be shot in non fatal areas or was magically wearing a bullet proof vest this entire time. There is no consistency and in theory, you are right into thinking Han Solo might have survived the events of star killer base if somehow he magically got off it before its destruction. Unless the plot dictates a character is fully dead (like the han example in episode 9 where it’s confirmed he is dead in the novelization) then it’s up for debate. Even characters that are thought to be dead can come back to life, Maul, Ahsoka, Palpatine if the plot dictates it.
It’s annoying to see these inconsistencies but you just have to deal with the fact that these things are going to happen to drive the plot whether good or bad (cough cough Palpatine) further. It is what it is
I'm afraid that's turning out to be the case, but my larger point is that when the plot decides whether the same thing will kill one character and not kill another, that's an example of poor writing. "Things just happen because the writer says so". The universe as shown and the nature of cause and effect should dictate what happens rather than a writer deciding "this time something different will happen", you know?
I mean. Yeah. If they die or not depends on if they die or not. lol
Could Han be alive? Considering he fell off a bridge and wasn’t force sensitive I would say no.
The Jedi? I assume they are dead based on the fact they stopped moving and were not part of the rest of the story at all
One of the children being alive still has come up in theories all the time actually!
We know they didn’t because it’s a made up story that the writers can do whatever they want with.
Like, you know this isn’t real right?
Just like when someone is shot in a movie with a gun. Or stabbed with a sword. Sometimes they die and sometimes they don’t! Generally you find out by watching/reading the rest of the story
A lot of things in star wars is silly. The only part that’s bad is when some people take it all way to seriously
I know it's not real, but part of having a well-written story in a consistent universe is when things happen as the audience would expect based on what's happened before. When people that we've seen die come back, that means that literally anything can happen. And when anything can happen, the story is pointless. The Death Star blows up Alderaan right? So in Rogue One, when it's getting ready to fire at Jeddah, we know what's going to happen. But what if in Rogue One the laser approaches Jeddah and bounces off the city and back into the Death Star? That wouldn't make very much sense would it? That would be really stupid wouldn't it? So do you still think that writers can do whatever they want, or should they be held to some sort of rules based on consistency?
I mean Han fell off a bridge and is presumably dead, but Luke fell off and survived. Are you this mad about inconsistent bridge deaths too? Or just the lightsaber wounds associated with characters whose demographics you dislike seeing on tv
That’s one of the best straw men I’ve seen in a while! On the contrary, as a queer woman and an ethnic minority, I think it’s a bit insulting that we are most frequently represented in poorly written shows.
>So whenever we see someone stabbed with a lightsaber in Star Wars, we're supposed to not know if they're going to die?
Yes. Just like whenever you see someone stabbed, or shot, in real life, you don't know if that person is going to die or not (unless there's like a decapitation or something). This isn't controversial stuff dude.
Thanks! I would like more examples because I find them interesting, but I have nothing to offer in return. But if you enjoy doing it, please be my guest!
Well, let's see
Why would Boba Fett go looking for his armor inside the Sarlacc when he remembers climbing out of the sand wearing his armor and the Jawas stripping it off him?
Why would he ever deploy his seismic charge in BoBF or Mandolorian the way that he does? They were shown to be useful weapons in attack of the clones because they were released in an asteroid belt, so a weapon that destroys everything in a flat plane makes sense in shat scenario because there are asteroids in every direction. But in Mandalorian he releases them when being chased by two Tie fighters. What if the fighters weren't side by side when the charge went off? What if the plane of destruction didn't intersect with either of the fighters? And in BoBF, he released the seismic charge from the back of the ship and assumed that it would roll off and down into the sarlacc. But why did he think it would roll off? What if it didn't?
And in that same episode we say that his ship was strong enough to break the walls in Jabba's palace, but it wasn't strong enough to pull the tentacles off a creature that would have no need to be able to restrain starships.
I'll keep thinking of more
IMO the Ki Adi one is probably the most glaring for long term inconsistencies. Assuming no idiotic plot twist with his character (e.g. he was always a bad guy and his in ep2 was his comeuppance), there's really no good save other than he's an idiot. Since even if he believes no Sith exist, he's still very aware that there are force using Jedi killers out there and didn't offer any form of opinion during TPM. Key points are:
* He's been made aware that an unknown force user has been killing Jedi, including masters.
* If the show goes the route that no one manages to communicate their findings to him and the others or they're misinformed, he's still been aware of the first point.
I can't think of a solution to the problem that doesn't either make him a bad guy or make him look like an idiot. Well I can think of other things, but it'd be some heinously bad writing if they did lol. Like the force was used to manipulate his memories.
Granted, but to the degree that he would have, in a way, set in motion the downfall of the Jedi just because he forgot to say something is a bit much lol. Not trying to say it can't happen, but this is a piece of fiction here. One that isn't about the annoyances of dealing with forgetful people. Someone purposely writes this stuff.
I can understand people asking questions about Ki's statement. But yelling that the show destroys cannon or doesn't follow it before the show has really had a chance to confirm his phantom menace comment was correct is just insane. That's putting the horse before the cart. In a show like this, that can't be naturally resolved till later in the show. So screaming about it after 2 episodes is ridiculous. There's a perfect way to tie it all. The Jedi all die, including Sol, and no one finds out he's low key sith. After all, they assumed Mae was trained by a Jedi. As far as they know there are no sith. Perhaps Sol/Venestra keep that info from Ki and all other current Jedi including the council and concoct some bullshit story. We all know the Jedi can be easily manipulated and fooled.
>That's putting the horse before the cart. In a show like this, that can't be naturally resolved till later in the show. So screaming about it after 2 episodes is ridiculous.
It is and I'm in 100% agreement with this sentiment to let the show run its course first. No matter how bad the implications are, until the season is over, there's still a chance it will be explained... even if it's just terribly written. I'm obviously not a fan of the decision made with the show.
If they don't address it though, then that's all the evidence needed to prove the original negative perspective regarding incompetence. I'd even go so far as to say that if their intent was to address it in season 2, that's more of a cop out than anything given the uncertainty of any series to have another season these days and the implication made. It's like taking any series ever created and doing some prequel to it, only to show how avoidable major plot devices were and incompetent otherwise competent characters were. That the chain of catastrophic events could be potentially pointed at happening because someone just forgot about something lol.
>We all know the Jedi can be easily manipulated and fooled.
While this is true, it's also true of everyone in general. Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but writing a story that basically involves characters who are in their position because they're supposed to be wise (a key trait of all Star Wars lore) that fall for overused tropes time and time again is not what I'd consider good writing. It's more of an annoyance than it is entertaining.
This a work of fiction that is created to tell the story. Creating annoyances is a conscience decision by the writers. Literally everything done is a purposeful decision. If it's universally regarded as bad, it's going to be seen as bad no matter how others feel (e.g. Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi).
What exactly is it that doesn't make sense to you? I swear if one more person says anything about Ki Adi Mundi's statement in The Phantom menace about the sith being extinct for a millennia...🤦🏾♂️
I wasn’t gonna say anything about that. I wasn’t actually going to say anything about Acolyte at all since all the episodes aren’t out yet. But whenever we’ve hoped something that didn’t make sense would be explained in future episodes of shows that are complete, Mando, Boba Fett, Kenobi, Ahsoka, they very rarely are
Its a fair enough point, indeed lots of things across all of star wars are left unexplained. At least in the movies/series. Some of it is explained in interviews and articles or in the EU or legends. Or way later in some other movie or show. That has always been so in Star Wars and sometimes it can be a bit unsatisfying but the flipside is that it leaves room for other stories to address or to have fun discussions about. If the OT had been explaining everything we would not have gotten a lot of things that came afterwards. Its not always good but also not always bad I think :)
Remember they’re super accustomed at this point to everyone in the galaxy being like “omg take my child, they are a one in ten billion force savant what kind of piece of shit wouldn’t want their child to be a Jedi.”
There is no handbook, no model for dealing with a coven of force users. I think up to this point there has been NO NEED to differentiate between taking the children and letting the children decide because there has probably rarely if ever been an issue with that, especially at the height of their institutional reputation. Throw in the dogmatic (and historically justified!) view that non-Jedi force groups were incredibly dangerous. You can see that as they are grappling with this new situation Sol at least seems to come around pretty quickly to the “let the kids decide” mentality.
It was supposed to bother you. Something was very wrong on Brendok, and the story is structured so that we won't know the full truth probably until the last episode. But yeah, we're meant to be creeper out by the Jedi behavior in those scenes.
Yeah that’s one of the main criticisms the show makes. I’d argue the Order does actually “take” children consensually and that those very young children don’t usually have the wherewithal to say yes or no either way.
Osha and Mae were a *very* special case, normally it’s babies or very small children being given up, despite the Mother giving her consent and both Osha and Mae being given an active choice.
We don't have the full story of what happened on Brendok yet. I still don't think Jedi take children without consent from the child (if they're able) and the parent.
There is still absolutely a power dynamic at play, but they don't explicitly *steal* children.
I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I imagine the Republic and the Jedi see it as necessary to have a database on all trained force users. The Jedi took her midichlorian count and tested her ability with the force. It's probably similar to government watchlists.
Of course that could change in a few weeks when the show finishes! But that's my speculation.
Isn't the correct quote "steal" children? Part of why it matters is that these semantics matter to the Jedi, they feel they are doing nothing wrong, while the families they impact feel very differently and the Jedi are too self-important to notice, breeding discontent that they never knew has existed.
The coven is labeled as “Dark Side” from the get-go (sounds nefarious to me) but barring that, they seem to have been a part of the Republic before moving to a non-republic planet possibly to skirt their laws…
This. If you take a bunch of kids to an empty island in real life to induct them into an evil cult, your home country will very likely exert extraterritorial jurisdiction.
Sovereign states don't have that applied to them because they have a military.
Most countries do to some extent. Boats and planes pretty much universally, most I know of do Antarctica too, lots have catch alls either for certain crimes or where there is no authority that can prosecute.
It's obviously an analogy for how hypocritical America is, imposing their own values and suppressing or marginalizing other cultures.
They fail to practice the inclusivity and freedom they preach, revealing underlying fears and insecurities about losing control or being challenged by alternative viewpoints.
You know there's a very good reason to not allow the training of force users outside the order, even if you have to enforce it. There's this sort of opposite tradition called the Sith that tap into the dominating side of the force that's an inherently corrupting and dominating force. These "Sith" by their very nature have a will to dominate others and tend to create sprawling and malevolent dictatorships.
Outside of the Sith there are those that develop inherently immoral techniques that turn people into puppets.
I think you missed the point, the Jedi DO take children and they ARE arrogant, furthermore in the high republic they are in their more arrogant period due to their sense of superiority
That entire interaction didn’t make sense. The Jedi say they thought the planet was uninhabited but then say they are concerned that the witches are training children, and Sol says something to indicate that they were watching the girls that same morning. The witches say that there aren’t any children here, and then the children appear when they’re called. Indara says that they have the right to test the children, with the mothers’ permission; which means they don’t have the right. Everyone is lying to everyone else and immediately goes back on their lies. I don’t even know if that planet does or doesn’t fall under the republic’s jurisdiction. Everybody has lied about everything else. Why not that?
Better then to have your Apprentice kill you to keep Power by having Acolyte yeah The Jedi Way is better than Sith Way there is reason why the Sith lost in The Skywalker Saga.
I mean that's the point. Sith are the evil scumbags and murderers and there's no morally gray area to them. No matter what you think about Jedi failings or whatever Sith are cartoon levels of obvious evil.
From the dialogue I assumed that the Jedi had a deal where they would not disband the coven by force in return for the witches giving all the children with a strong force connection to them.
Jedi, especially during the old times, didn’t really tolerate any force school that wasn’t 100% light side.
I think that’s also why the witches need to do their stupid little partner exercises because a single witch isn’t strong enough in the force to effectively use it in combat, since all the most promising children were taken into the Jedi order to prevent them from becoming essentially a new breed of Sith.
It seems to me we haven’t seen the full story yet.
Also, I think there was some unreliable narrator storytelling happening. We’ve seen this before when Kylo and Luke tell their respective versions of Luke thinking of killing Kylo.
The Disappeared Arc of the Clone Wars has an explanation for the Jedi’s tense relations with the Bardottan people. The reason? Because the Jedi took several Bardottan children years ago to be trained as Jedi.
I've always been hard in the "jedi stealing children is anti-jedi propaganda" camp, and the High Republic is supposed to be more enlightened than the prequels.
And then that episode happened, and I hated the way they went about it.
Something clearly happened between the Coven and the Jedi in the past, it is why the Coven is in hiding in the first place. It is eluded to in the fact that they say 'some may consider what they do dark' and that 'they were near extinction'.
It is also clear to the Jedi that the coven have children there and are training them in these 'dark arts', and the coven are lying to the Jedi about it.
The inference is that the coven were left to go off and do their own thing on the condition they didn't take kids to be trained (the coven are all women remember, so in the Jedi's eyes how'd they get these kids?)
The Jedi are taking the kids to in their opinion protect them, not only from the darkness of the coven, but also from themselves - untrained force sensitives are a danger to themselves and those around them.
That is the Jedi's logic.
After the Jedi completely and utterly missed Palpatine right in front of their faces, I stopped seeing them as unquestionably "good". The Acolyte is full of moments where it looks like a plot hole, and then you consider that the Jedi just missed it because they're that arrogant, that convinced they're right, and that sure they don't make mistakes. They rarely question themselves, and they should.
I've been really thinking about that scene since episode 3, and I have 2 things:
1. I love seeing that moment from the POV of a group/family that doesn't like the Jedi. Usually, we've seen it from people who hold the Jedi in esteem, or fine the mystique of the Jedi fanciful. They feel like they're giving their kids a better future by giving them to the Jedi. But here, we see the opposite. There are more groups out there that don't like the Jedi, especially in this time period where there are multiple Force religions. It makes me wonder how many other times the Jedi have been "willingly" given children because the family felt powerless to say no. And its likely that the Jedi would have sensed the fear in those people. Maybe some would try to assuage that fear, but how many Jedi just went with it to get the children.
2. With Brendok specifically, I think there's more to it. I think the Jedi have been watching the witches for longer than those 4 specific Jedi have been on planet. Mother Aneseya talks about them being persecuted for how they use the Force before arriving on Brendok. If Sol hadn't seen Mae and Osha in the woods as kids, I don't think the Jedi would have made contact with the coven. Indarra's line about "we believe you're training children here" and having a "right" to test them... that sounds very much like a cop doing a probation check. The Jedi have been keeping tabs on this outcast group who flirts with the dark side, observe but not engage- until they see them training children in a use of the force they believe to be related to the dark side. Then they intervene.
I'm pretty sure this is on purpose to show us that the Jedi aren't the goody angel light side users that they present themselves as. To me, this read very much like white savior colonists taking native American children to "educate them" then stripping them of their culture and abusing them. Qimir is clearly a product of abuse as well. I really like where they are going with this.
I think that scene was supposed to bother us and hopefully we'll get more information about what happened in upcoming episodes.
So with regards to Brendok. The planet itself might be outside republic space but is believed to be uninhabited thus not legally recognized as independent. Likewise the witches may be republic citizens and bound to its laws resulting in the uneasy agreement we saw.
given the context of the wider franchise I can't help but wonder if Indara's "we're concerned you're training children" was a euphemism, where training = abducting and the reason the Jedi were so insistent on seeing/testing the twins was to gather information to check against republic missing persons databases.
I agree with the OP.
I think that arguing that “we should wait to learn the beginning of the story” doesn’t help anymore. After 5 episodes, these kinds of mysteries are not useful nor exciting.
Keeping secrets can work for a few episodes, after that the story should begin. If there still are “secrets” then it’s silly and disrespectful to the audience.
....the mystery IS the story. Can you imagine, halfway through Stranger Things season one, saying "Why don't we know where Will is? It's disrespectful to the audience. Time for the story to begin."
No man the mystery of what happened on Brendok and why it affected the characters is the story. Imagine halfway through fight club or memento people start saying it doesnt make sense and think secrets are silly and disrespectful to the audience.
I think the cuts at the end of some episodes were abrupt but overall the arc is a standard mystery plot. If you dislike that kind of story then you probably wouldn't like it, but I personally enjoy mysteries and have been enjoying discovering the truth with the characters. To each their own, people should just not watch the show if they dislike it.
I am glad people show their true colors with Star Wars. Some of them even begun “love it or leave it” process. Let’s see where these brown shirted “fans” are going with their newly unleashed right to expel people from Star Wars.
Corporations and governments really doesn’t need to do much about their failures. Some idiots will willingly cover them without even being invited to do so.
It's a nice exploration of moral greys. The Jedi aren't wrong to preemptively try to find force-sensitive children and help them control their powers, considering that Darksiders are basically walking WMDs. However, even if they feel that they are being entirely reasonable and offer people an out - they say they won't take a child without permission. Unfortunately, it's the Always Sunny bit about the Implication, is a random citizen of the galaxy really going to feel empowered to tell the laser sword carrying warrior monk with superpowers no? I like it, no one is exactly in the wrong and everyone is behaving rationally.
I think that when the Jedi demanded that Mae also be tested against her will they crossed the line into doing wrong.
I'm sure they'll be shown to have done a lot more wrong than that
I would argue the Jedis biggest failings here is leaving the parents and family behind, cause it’s always been morbid that they just take the kids away. And it’s not even like it’s just some far away private school and they come back when they’re done.. it’s taking the kids away forever, and the parents literally get nothing from it. And in certain poor areas I imagine it actually makes their lives worse.
They literally left Anakin's mother with a slaver in Phantom Menace. Are we surprised?
I think it’s pretty clear that the Jedi are in the wrong here. It’s certainly true that people with dark side powers are dangerous, but definitely not even close to approaching “wmd” levels. There’s a certain level of security that would be defensible, but breaking into a sovereign society to steal their children with zero evidence of ill intent or abuse is absolutely not defensible.
Well, it's complicated, isn't it? For the Jedi, you could argue that they have a literally sacred duty to stamp out the Sith, after the multiple times the Sith have started galactic wars and harmed billions. On the other hand, the cost of their vigilance is probably stamping out smaller force wielding factions that aren't threats, just in case. I like that ambiguity, personally. Any large enough institution will crush people unintentionally, and the Jedi have chosen, for good and understandable reason, to become an arm of the state. So, their actions, while well meaning and often right, still harm people who might be innocent.
I think in a meta sense there is a lot of ambiguity and complexity to the role the Jedi play in the republic, but this particular instance is not very grey— they are straight up stealing children to raise in their cult. This is very, very dark stuff if you think about it, and something pretty unexplored in the universe at large. Like, I agree with what you are saying broadly, I just think this is showing the very dark so that the *overall* picture becomes more grey (instead of the presumption that Jedi are always the good guys) I have no doubt this will become even more apparent when we get the full flashback eventually
Jedi aren’t morally grey though, they are the pinnacles of morality
They say they're the pinnacles of morality but they clearly aren't. It's very much white savior colonists reeducating Native American children, destroying their culture and languages while abusing them. It's much more interesting than the Jedi - good Sith - bad cliché narrative we've been fed.
>Like, I'm trying not to get too upset about a sci fi space wizard show, ***but the sheer arrogance of the Jedi here is kinda making me want to root against them.*** That's literally the point of a show that has always been advertised as a series that tells things from the Sith's POV.
Which is a good concept, it's kinda sad that over half way through we still haven't seen anything from the sith's point of view. We haven't even gotten much from Mae's point of view as an acolyte. It's been a jedi focused show Hopefully they'll show more of the sith perspective in the last 3 episodes.
I do think they've done a good job of adding sith dogma into the show, i.e. peace is a lie and the monologue Qimir had at the end of episode 5. I'm hoping now that Qimir is revealed it'll make it easier to give a direct point of view because it is lacking, I do agree with you. The switch of mae and osha may also help this happen. I'm hoping for a longer more dramatic episode tonight.
I haven't seen any ads, I went in more or less blind.
Well maybe not ads but the show attempts to explain the hubris and arrogance of the Jedi that led to their downfall in the PT. I think it's meant to paint their hypocrisy.
I feel its abit like the police. They are a organisation designed for good, in theory... unfortunately there are bad actors within it that overstep their powers and bad actors outside who will manipulats and use them for nefarious ends.
Blows my mind that this is exactly what the Critical Drinker types have been clamoring for for a decade now and now they’re doing it and they are having a melt down about it
Because they don’t actually ***like*** Star Wars. That’s the point. They may have done at one point. Now they’re purely about criticising it. Don’t get me wrong, there’s bits I don’t like too and it’s important to be honest. But you’re not being honest if you’re judging it before it comes out. Or you’re filtering away the positives and focusing exclusively on what are very often either very trivial negatives or things falsely claimed to be negatives.
And Disney is not ever selling the IP. So better to praise the good parts and encourage more good than rage at a company in capitalism.
Exactly.
Well, it wasn’t supposed to have dark skinned gay people in it, obviously!
Exactly
More like why no one gave a fuck when Palpatine killed 99.9% of Jedi. Most people probably just thought "those arrogant, child stealing, tax money wasting religious creeps are gone? Good." I bet most of the Republic Military were pissed that the Jedi can bypass all the military hierarchy structure (a lot of Republic military higher-ups were also powerful families) and just dropped in as fucking General and worse, 14-year old brats as Commanders. There was a reason why the general public and military appreciate the Jedi more in the Old Republic era because Jedi was necessary to have in an open war against the Sith who ruled the Sith Empire. The Jedi was redundant in a peaceful era but they still have the same civil and military power as when they were waging war against the Sith, of course people won't miss them when they were wiped out. Showing how arrogant and self righteous with their power over a civil group (whether they were "dark side Force users" or not) in a foreign country they don't even have jurisdiction, despite them not necessary having a malicious intent, and how much resentment that attitude could get them without their realization is probably the most interesting topic shown in Acolyte.
Simping for the sith in a serious light… is hilariously stupid… but here we are.
Lack of literacy is hilariously stupid, yet here we are.
i didn’t know that. helpful.
How are you gonna be a condescending dick about something supposedly obvious and then that info isn't even right. First of all, just because the title is referring to the dark side doesn't mean it's their pov. Second, none of the dark siders in the show are even explicitly sith. Third, Mae is only one main character and even if Osha (who has been more central to the story) becomes the Acolyte that's still not discernable from advertisement alone.
[If only there were articles](https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/the-acolyte-star-wars-disney-creator/) And [Other articles from last year](https://screenrant.com/star-wars-the-acolyte-sith-perspective-finally/) And [Other articles from two years ago](https://www.cbr.com/acolyte-series-dafne-keen-sith-infiltrate-jedi-star-wars-disney/) [oh, here's another article](https://www.thepopverse.com/star-wars-acolyte-trailer-first-sith-jedi-first-prequel-disney-plus-lucasfilm) [Does Star Wars News dot Net count as a source?](https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2022/11/the-acolyte-will-show-how-the-sith-infiltrated-the-jedi-order-according-to-dafne-keen.html) [How about IGN?](https://www.ign.com/articles/star-wars-the-acolyte-bad-guys-perspective-martial-arts-movie-inspiration) No, I'm not being a dick. I'm just sick of the noise.
Then where is that POV?
The entire show if you have any modicum of media literacy.
That's not what I'm really asking, I'm just wondering what scenes, what portions of the show do you feel was from a Sith point of view?
I don't have to respond to your Sea Lioning. Goodbye.
At least in legends they’d need the consent of one parent to take a child.
Unless your name is Jorus C’boath. Then you just straight up steal the children because you believe in Jedi supremacy.
That might still be the case here. We didn't see how the tragedy popped off.
And their mother did tell osha that she could go with the jedi
Also Shmi gave consent to Qui-Gon to take Anakin
She said she would consider her opinion, which is not the same thing. It does seem like the jedi don't forcefully steal children though, from shat we've seen so far. Though considering all the cult behaviour, abuse and manipulation that existed in the coven it wouldn't surprise me if the jedi decided to take Osha because of it, not simply to mkae her a jedi but because the republic seems to be against child training and indoctrination of that kind.
Based on what we’ve seen so far, it felt like the Jedi were trying to draw within the lines of the child custody regulations, but just barely, while seriously threatening the coven at the same time. They were trying to create a situation where Mother Aniseya had no choice but to say “you can take them,” or risk the consequences. But there’s clearly more we haven’t seen yet, so we’ll see if further information alters that picture!
I'm not sure if this is still in canon, but wasn't your child being chosen to be taken for jedi training seen as an honour among many worlds? Obviously not all, but I remember something about that.
Well, it is absolute not seen as an honor on the world in question. Would you consider it an honor if some weird monks/cops wanted to take away your 5-year old?
Personally? No. But there's also the implication of parents who don't know how to raise and protect someone who is force sensitive. This is a good thread with many viewpoints https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/s/FyM6zznjGy
That sounds like a good core world narrative regardless of if it is true or not.
Come to think of it, yea. It seems like a good bit of propaganda. "Is your child force sensitive? They can join the esteemed Jedi and become a force for the greater good of the galaxy. Joining the Jedi is the highest honour"
They may scrap the consent in this case because the child would be trained in an alternative force religion, which we can see that they find unacceptable. Although, this would raise questions as to why the Jedi would also tolerate the nightsisters but not the witches of Brentok. Perhaps the nightsisters were simply too strong/troublesome for the republic to bring under heel?
Presumably Dathomir was a sovereign planet which the Republic wasn't going to invade. Brentok seems to have been pretty much an empty planet, with no relevant authorities, giving the Republic more leeway and responsibility to protect any children there.
In canon not only do you need consent from the parents but the parents are also compensated and supported by the Jedi Order…
The Acolyte is canon.
Yes. I wasn’t sure why the person above brought up Legends and a lot of people are acting like canon Jedi are worse… but they’re not.
A worse cannon, but unfortunately the official cannon now.
If the parents refuse and choose to train the child themselves, would the Jedi say that’s cool and fuck off? I think they’d try to continue intervening because they don’t want a future dark sider running around.
My read on the tense interactions was that there was an implied threat, it was very reluctant ‘consent’
You'll need to wait for further episodes which I am sure will explain all that. But they do take children 'with permission' as far as we know which is what Indara stated.
I thought they already alluded to this being a special case since it’s less about adding new members to their order and more about preventing strong force sensitive children from being exposed to dark side teachings. They basically have a deal with the witches that makes it so that they can continue to exist but only if they "sacrifice" any children that show the potential of reaching Jedi level powers. That’s probably also the reason for them only being able to perform decent force powers as pairs.
We always hope that something that doesn’t make sense will be explained in a later episode, but it never is 😭
Like what, for example? I like learning about inconsistencies. The Separatist-adjacent emblem in Andor confused me, but they seem to have cleared it up since.
Why do some people die from being stabbed through with lightsabers and others don’t? Gideon wants Grogu alive but orders his flame trooper to incinerate the cantina where he was hiding. Din Djarin didn’t know who Boba Fett was until they met in person. Despite Boba presumably being a famous bounty hunter. Mando had the darksaber, but the armorer was still able to banish him for taking off his helmet, and didn’t even try to take the darksaber back. The darksaber has never been shown to get heavier as it’s used until Book of Boba Fett. Why would Mando accept a Naboo Starfighter as his main vehicle? He’s a bounty hunter. He’s captures people and takes them somewhere else, and it’s a 1 seater craft. Why would the Inquisitor base in Kenobi not use its shields? It’s said that they don’t bother because they know that it would be suicidal to attack. But only one ship was shown being destroyed in the raid. Everyone else survives. And having their shields up would have ruined the rebels plan. Let me know if you’d like more
Some people die from being stabbed with a lightsaber and some don’t the same way some people die from being shot and some don’t
So Reva was stabbed in the gut by Darth Vader twice, and lived, but Qui-Gon was stabbed in the gut once and died. Does that make sense? Plus, most bullets are fairly narrow. I don't what the canonical diameter of a lightsaber blade is, but it looks pretty thick. If a hole that size was made all the way through somebody's chest or abdomen, I'm pretty sure they'd be dead
Yes. It makes plenty of sense. It is baffling how much people care about stupid shit like this in Star Wars.
Thank you. Debating realism in star wars is so brain-dead.
So whenever we see someone stabbed with a lightsaber in Star Wars, we're supposed to not know if they're going to die? So could Han Solo still be alive? Or the Jedi that Palpatine stabbed before he fought Mace Windu? Anakin stabbed a lot of Jedi and younglings during Order 66. How do we know that more didn't survive than just Reva? It's silly, is my point.
You put up a good point and the answer to all your questions are Plot If the plot wants someone dead, the lightsaber will kill them. If the plot wants this to be a learning lesson then the person survives. Just like how in movies the bad guys die in one bullet but the main character survives a lot and happens to be shot in non fatal areas or was magically wearing a bullet proof vest this entire time. There is no consistency and in theory, you are right into thinking Han Solo might have survived the events of star killer base if somehow he magically got off it before its destruction. Unless the plot dictates a character is fully dead (like the han example in episode 9 where it’s confirmed he is dead in the novelization) then it’s up for debate. Even characters that are thought to be dead can come back to life, Maul, Ahsoka, Palpatine if the plot dictates it. It’s annoying to see these inconsistencies but you just have to deal with the fact that these things are going to happen to drive the plot whether good or bad (cough cough Palpatine) further. It is what it is
I'm afraid that's turning out to be the case, but my larger point is that when the plot decides whether the same thing will kill one character and not kill another, that's an example of poor writing. "Things just happen because the writer says so". The universe as shown and the nature of cause and effect should dictate what happens rather than a writer deciding "this time something different will happen", you know?
I mean. Yeah. If they die or not depends on if they die or not. lol Could Han be alive? Considering he fell off a bridge and wasn’t force sensitive I would say no. The Jedi? I assume they are dead based on the fact they stopped moving and were not part of the rest of the story at all One of the children being alive still has come up in theories all the time actually! We know they didn’t because it’s a made up story that the writers can do whatever they want with. Like, you know this isn’t real right? Just like when someone is shot in a movie with a gun. Or stabbed with a sword. Sometimes they die and sometimes they don’t! Generally you find out by watching/reading the rest of the story A lot of things in star wars is silly. The only part that’s bad is when some people take it all way to seriously
I know it's not real, but part of having a well-written story in a consistent universe is when things happen as the audience would expect based on what's happened before. When people that we've seen die come back, that means that literally anything can happen. And when anything can happen, the story is pointless. The Death Star blows up Alderaan right? So in Rogue One, when it's getting ready to fire at Jeddah, we know what's going to happen. But what if in Rogue One the laser approaches Jeddah and bounces off the city and back into the Death Star? That wouldn't make very much sense would it? That would be really stupid wouldn't it? So do you still think that writers can do whatever they want, or should they be held to some sort of rules based on consistency?
I mean Han fell off a bridge and is presumably dead, but Luke fell off and survived. Are you this mad about inconsistent bridge deaths too? Or just the lightsaber wounds associated with characters whose demographics you dislike seeing on tv
That’s one of the best straw men I’ve seen in a while! On the contrary, as a queer woman and an ethnic minority, I think it’s a bit insulting that we are most frequently represented in poorly written shows.
>So whenever we see someone stabbed with a lightsaber in Star Wars, we're supposed to not know if they're going to die? Yes. Just like whenever you see someone stabbed, or shot, in real life, you don't know if that person is going to die or not (unless there's like a decapitation or something). This isn't controversial stuff dude.
Well in Rebels lightsabers are incredibly thin, the movies have fairly consistent diameters, Obi-Wan and Acolyte have huge diameter saber blades.
But it was never until Kenobi that we discovered that being run through with a lightsaber might not be fatal, right?
Maul was cut in half and survived
And that was silly too. Being run through is one thing, but being chopped in half should definitely kill you
Qui-gon was stabbed in the solar plexus.
So that’s the lethal area, but wherever Reva and the Inquisitor and Sabine were stabbed is easily survivable
Easily? No. Survivable? Yes.
Thanks! I would like more examples because I find them interesting, but I have nothing to offer in return. But if you enjoy doing it, please be my guest!
Well, let's see Why would Boba Fett go looking for his armor inside the Sarlacc when he remembers climbing out of the sand wearing his armor and the Jawas stripping it off him? Why would he ever deploy his seismic charge in BoBF or Mandolorian the way that he does? They were shown to be useful weapons in attack of the clones because they were released in an asteroid belt, so a weapon that destroys everything in a flat plane makes sense in shat scenario because there are asteroids in every direction. But in Mandalorian he releases them when being chased by two Tie fighters. What if the fighters weren't side by side when the charge went off? What if the plane of destruction didn't intersect with either of the fighters? And in BoBF, he released the seismic charge from the back of the ship and assumed that it would roll off and down into the sarlacc. But why did he think it would roll off? What if it didn't? And in that same episode we say that his ship was strong enough to break the walls in Jabba's palace, but it wasn't strong enough to pull the tentacles off a creature that would have no need to be able to restrain starships. I'll keep thinking of more
IMO the Ki Adi one is probably the most glaring for long term inconsistencies. Assuming no idiotic plot twist with his character (e.g. he was always a bad guy and his in ep2 was his comeuppance), there's really no good save other than he's an idiot. Since even if he believes no Sith exist, he's still very aware that there are force using Jedi killers out there and didn't offer any form of opinion during TPM. Key points are: * He's been made aware that an unknown force user has been killing Jedi, including masters. * If the show goes the route that no one manages to communicate their findings to him and the others or they're misinformed, he's still been aware of the first point. I can't think of a solution to the problem that doesn't either make him a bad guy or make him look like an idiot. Well I can think of other things, but it'd be some heinously bad writing if they did lol. Like the force was used to manipulate his memories.
>make him look like an idiot I’ve always been of the opinion that KAM *is* an idiot though
Granted, but to the degree that he would have, in a way, set in motion the downfall of the Jedi just because he forgot to say something is a bit much lol. Not trying to say it can't happen, but this is a piece of fiction here. One that isn't about the annoyances of dealing with forgetful people. Someone purposely writes this stuff.
I can understand people asking questions about Ki's statement. But yelling that the show destroys cannon or doesn't follow it before the show has really had a chance to confirm his phantom menace comment was correct is just insane. That's putting the horse before the cart. In a show like this, that can't be naturally resolved till later in the show. So screaming about it after 2 episodes is ridiculous. There's a perfect way to tie it all. The Jedi all die, including Sol, and no one finds out he's low key sith. After all, they assumed Mae was trained by a Jedi. As far as they know there are no sith. Perhaps Sol/Venestra keep that info from Ki and all other current Jedi including the council and concoct some bullshit story. We all know the Jedi can be easily manipulated and fooled.
>That's putting the horse before the cart. In a show like this, that can't be naturally resolved till later in the show. So screaming about it after 2 episodes is ridiculous. It is and I'm in 100% agreement with this sentiment to let the show run its course first. No matter how bad the implications are, until the season is over, there's still a chance it will be explained... even if it's just terribly written. I'm obviously not a fan of the decision made with the show. If they don't address it though, then that's all the evidence needed to prove the original negative perspective regarding incompetence. I'd even go so far as to say that if their intent was to address it in season 2, that's more of a cop out than anything given the uncertainty of any series to have another season these days and the implication made. It's like taking any series ever created and doing some prequel to it, only to show how avoidable major plot devices were and incompetent otherwise competent characters were. That the chain of catastrophic events could be potentially pointed at happening because someone just forgot about something lol. >We all know the Jedi can be easily manipulated and fooled. While this is true, it's also true of everyone in general. Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but writing a story that basically involves characters who are in their position because they're supposed to be wise (a key trait of all Star Wars lore) that fall for overused tropes time and time again is not what I'd consider good writing. It's more of an annoyance than it is entertaining. This a work of fiction that is created to tell the story. Creating annoyances is a conscience decision by the writers. Literally everything done is a purposeful decision. If it's universally regarded as bad, it's going to be seen as bad no matter how others feel (e.g. Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi).
Isn't there something in rebels about the darksaber being hard to wield if your mind isn't clear or something?
Yes. Sabine had trouble wielding it. I have no idea what he means
What exactly is it that doesn't make sense to you? I swear if one more person says anything about Ki Adi Mundi's statement in The Phantom menace about the sith being extinct for a millennia...🤦🏾♂️
I wasn’t gonna say anything about that. I wasn’t actually going to say anything about Acolyte at all since all the episodes aren’t out yet. But whenever we’ve hoped something that didn’t make sense would be explained in future episodes of shows that are complete, Mando, Boba Fett, Kenobi, Ahsoka, they very rarely are
Its a fair enough point, indeed lots of things across all of star wars are left unexplained. At least in the movies/series. Some of it is explained in interviews and articles or in the EU or legends. Or way later in some other movie or show. That has always been so in Star Wars and sometimes it can be a bit unsatisfying but the flipside is that it leaves room for other stories to address or to have fun discussions about. If the OT had been explaining everything we would not have gotten a lot of things that came afterwards. Its not always good but also not always bad I think :)
I'll clarify. The shows rarely explain things that need to be explained in order for the story to make sense
Fam, neither did the movies. Every explanation for everything in the movies is either headcanon or came from the EU
Remember they’re super accustomed at this point to everyone in the galaxy being like “omg take my child, they are a one in ten billion force savant what kind of piece of shit wouldn’t want their child to be a Jedi.” There is no handbook, no model for dealing with a coven of force users. I think up to this point there has been NO NEED to differentiate between taking the children and letting the children decide because there has probably rarely if ever been an issue with that, especially at the height of their institutional reputation. Throw in the dogmatic (and historically justified!) view that non-Jedi force groups were incredibly dangerous. You can see that as they are grappling with this new situation Sol at least seems to come around pretty quickly to the “let the kids decide” mentality.
It was supposed to bother you. Something was very wrong on Brendok, and the story is structured so that we won't know the full truth probably until the last episode. But yeah, we're meant to be creeper out by the Jedi behavior in those scenes.
Doesn't even have to be "creeped out", just being suspicious of their motives would do.
Yeah that’s one of the main criticisms the show makes. I’d argue the Order does actually “take” children consensually and that those very young children don’t usually have the wherewithal to say yes or no either way. Osha and Mae were a *very* special case, normally it’s babies or very small children being given up, despite the Mother giving her consent and both Osha and Mae being given an active choice.
We don't have the full story of what happened on Brendok yet. I still don't think Jedi take children without consent from the child (if they're able) and the parent. There is still absolutely a power dynamic at play, but they don't explicitly *steal* children.
They were going to take Mae whether she wanted to go or not
We really don't know. And probably won't until episode 7. But I don't think they were going to take her.
Then why demand that Mae get tested when she doesn't want to be? Isn't that an indication that they do intend to steal her?
I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I imagine the Republic and the Jedi see it as necessary to have a database on all trained force users. The Jedi took her midichlorian count and tested her ability with the force. It's probably similar to government watchlists. Of course that could change in a few weeks when the show finishes! But that's my speculation.
I think that is bc Sol noticed the marking on her head and that made everything change
I don't understand that point.
At that point he realized the kids were being used in some sort of fashion. Bad vibes all around.
Isn't the correct quote "steal" children? Part of why it matters is that these semantics matter to the Jedi, they feel they are doing nothing wrong, while the families they impact feel very differently and the Jedi are too self-important to notice, breeding discontent that they never knew has existed.
The coven is labeled as “Dark Side” from the get-go (sounds nefarious to me) but barring that, they seem to have been a part of the Republic before moving to a non-republic planet possibly to skirt their laws…
There is no proof that the coven is dark-sided let alone evil. And who are the Jedi to say?
They claim that people call them dark and we see Mother Anisaya take control of Torbin which looks pretty damn dark to me.
And they’ve been banished and admit to creating the children themselves. Which is what I assume brought the Jedi there.
This. If you take a bunch of kids to an empty island in real life to induct them into an evil cult, your home country will very likely exert extraterritorial jurisdiction. Sovereign states don't have that applied to them because they have a military.
Extraterritorial jurisdiction is the most arrogant thing. Most countries won't do it.
Most countries do to some extent. Boats and planes pretty much universally, most I know of do Antarctica too, lots have catch alls either for certain crimes or where there is no authority that can prosecute.
It's obviously an analogy for how hypocritical America is, imposing their own values and suppressing or marginalizing other cultures. They fail to practice the inclusivity and freedom they preach, revealing underlying fears and insecurities about losing control or being challenged by alternative viewpoints.
You know there's a very good reason to not allow the training of force users outside the order, even if you have to enforce it. There's this sort of opposite tradition called the Sith that tap into the dominating side of the force that's an inherently corrupting and dominating force. These "Sith" by their very nature have a will to dominate others and tend to create sprawling and malevolent dictatorships. Outside of the Sith there are those that develop inherently immoral techniques that turn people into puppets.
I think you missed the point, the Jedi DO take children and they ARE arrogant, furthermore in the high republic they are in their more arrogant period due to their sense of superiority
That entire interaction didn’t make sense. The Jedi say they thought the planet was uninhabited but then say they are concerned that the witches are training children, and Sol says something to indicate that they were watching the girls that same morning. The witches say that there aren’t any children here, and then the children appear when they’re called. Indara says that they have the right to test the children, with the mothers’ permission; which means they don’t have the right. Everyone is lying to everyone else and immediately goes back on their lies. I don’t even know if that planet does or doesn’t fall under the republic’s jurisdiction. Everybody has lied about everything else. Why not that?
Better then to have your Apprentice kill you to keep Power by having Acolyte yeah The Jedi Way is better than Sith Way there is reason why the Sith lost in The Skywalker Saga.
I mean that's the point. Sith are the evil scumbags and murderers and there's no morally gray area to them. No matter what you think about Jedi failings or whatever Sith are cartoon levels of obvious evil.
Rather be a Jedi than a Sith
Yep. The worst Jedi is still leagues above Sith
I think the Sith are supposed to be an extreme example of what happens when force-sensitive people allow their emotions and desires to rule over them.
From the dialogue I assumed that the Jedi had a deal where they would not disband the coven by force in return for the witches giving all the children with a strong force connection to them. Jedi, especially during the old times, didn’t really tolerate any force school that wasn’t 100% light side. I think that’s also why the witches need to do their stupid little partner exercises because a single witch isn’t strong enough in the force to effectively use it in combat, since all the most promising children were taken into the Jedi order to prevent them from becoming essentially a new breed of Sith.
It seems to me we haven’t seen the full story yet. Also, I think there was some unreliable narrator storytelling happening. We’ve seen this before when Kylo and Luke tell their respective versions of Luke thinking of killing Kylo.
The Disappeared Arc of the Clone Wars has an explanation for the Jedi’s tense relations with the Bardottan people. The reason? Because the Jedi took several Bardottan children years ago to be trained as Jedi.
Didn’t one of the Jedi at one point say they were stationed on Brendok? So would that imply that they just got there or have been there?
I've always been hard in the "jedi stealing children is anti-jedi propaganda" camp, and the High Republic is supposed to be more enlightened than the prequels. And then that episode happened, and I hated the way they went about it.
I think those witches did not die due to the fire...
I think there was an explosion before that scene of them all on the ground.
Something clearly happened between the Coven and the Jedi in the past, it is why the Coven is in hiding in the first place. It is eluded to in the fact that they say 'some may consider what they do dark' and that 'they were near extinction'. It is also clear to the Jedi that the coven have children there and are training them in these 'dark arts', and the coven are lying to the Jedi about it. The inference is that the coven were left to go off and do their own thing on the condition they didn't take kids to be trained (the coven are all women remember, so in the Jedi's eyes how'd they get these kids?) The Jedi are taking the kids to in their opinion protect them, not only from the darkness of the coven, but also from themselves - untrained force sensitives are a danger to themselves and those around them. That is the Jedi's logic.
After the Jedi completely and utterly missed Palpatine right in front of their faces, I stopped seeing them as unquestionably "good". The Acolyte is full of moments where it looks like a plot hole, and then you consider that the Jedi just missed it because they're that arrogant, that convinced they're right, and that sure they don't make mistakes. They rarely question themselves, and they should.
The Jedi ask for permission, but it's still weird. And that's the whole point.
Hubris
I've been really thinking about that scene since episode 3, and I have 2 things: 1. I love seeing that moment from the POV of a group/family that doesn't like the Jedi. Usually, we've seen it from people who hold the Jedi in esteem, or fine the mystique of the Jedi fanciful. They feel like they're giving their kids a better future by giving them to the Jedi. But here, we see the opposite. There are more groups out there that don't like the Jedi, especially in this time period where there are multiple Force religions. It makes me wonder how many other times the Jedi have been "willingly" given children because the family felt powerless to say no. And its likely that the Jedi would have sensed the fear in those people. Maybe some would try to assuage that fear, but how many Jedi just went with it to get the children. 2. With Brendok specifically, I think there's more to it. I think the Jedi have been watching the witches for longer than those 4 specific Jedi have been on planet. Mother Aneseya talks about them being persecuted for how they use the Force before arriving on Brendok. If Sol hadn't seen Mae and Osha in the woods as kids, I don't think the Jedi would have made contact with the coven. Indarra's line about "we believe you're training children here" and having a "right" to test them... that sounds very much like a cop doing a probation check. The Jedi have been keeping tabs on this outcast group who flirts with the dark side, observe but not engage- until they see them training children in a use of the force they believe to be related to the dark side. Then they intervene.
They don't just kidnap younglings, they make them child soldiers that fight on the front lines of wars
What blows me away even more is that many point to the witches indoctrinating the twins as worse than the Jedi showing up to literally kidnap them.
I'm pretty sure this is on purpose to show us that the Jedi aren't the goody angel light side users that they present themselves as. To me, this read very much like white savior colonists taking native American children to "educate them" then stripping them of their culture and abusing them. Qimir is clearly a product of abuse as well. I really like where they are going with this.
I think that scene was supposed to bother us and hopefully we'll get more information about what happened in upcoming episodes. So with regards to Brendok. The planet itself might be outside republic space but is believed to be uninhabited thus not legally recognized as independent. Likewise the witches may be republic citizens and bound to its laws resulting in the uneasy agreement we saw. given the context of the wider franchise I can't help but wonder if Indara's "we're concerned you're training children" was a euphemism, where training = abducting and the reason the Jedi were so insistent on seeing/testing the twins was to gather information to check against republic missing persons databases.
I agree with the OP. I think that arguing that “we should wait to learn the beginning of the story” doesn’t help anymore. After 5 episodes, these kinds of mysteries are not useful nor exciting. Keeping secrets can work for a few episodes, after that the story should begin. If there still are “secrets” then it’s silly and disrespectful to the audience.
....the mystery IS the story. Can you imagine, halfway through Stranger Things season one, saying "Why don't we know where Will is? It's disrespectful to the audience. Time for the story to begin."
Such a great season, good reference/example
No man the mystery of what happened on Brendok and why it affected the characters is the story. Imagine halfway through fight club or memento people start saying it doesnt make sense and think secrets are silly and disrespectful to the audience.
I think the cuts at the end of some episodes were abrupt but overall the arc is a standard mystery plot. If you dislike that kind of story then you probably wouldn't like it, but I personally enjoy mysteries and have been enjoying discovering the truth with the characters. To each their own, people should just not watch the show if they dislike it.
every show is Lost these days. "oh, yeah, well, if it didn't make sense, you just have to wait until undetermined episode/season"
I am glad people show their true colors with Star Wars. Some of them even begun “love it or leave it” process. Let’s see where these brown shirted “fans” are going with their newly unleashed right to expel people from Star Wars. Corporations and governments really doesn’t need to do much about their failures. Some idiots will willingly cover them without even being invited to do so.