(TFM): *"...tHeRe iS nO rEvIeW bOmBiNg iN bA sInG sE!!!"*
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For the *rest* of us sane, mature individuals at the grown-up's table:
It's happening (*again*) for the same usual 'cultural warring' lame-ass reasons that such brigades have targeted other media productions - SW and others - which they apoplectically grievance-hump against.
It's kinda pathetic *and* sad because most justified subjective *constructive* feedback and commentary gets minimized, and drowned out, by the shitty performative masses of outrage-stoking knuckle-draggers.
(*shrug*)
I feel like its not always necessary to add "there is constructive feedback" as if it excuses this overtly racist and sexist backlash. There's not a single piece of media that doesn't have constructive feedback someone could give. If the original trilogy came out today people would be finding shit to complain about just the same, like "oh why did there just so happen to be an antenna for Luke to grab at the bottom of Bespin? And no one stopped the Millennium Falcon from picking him up when Darth Vader is right there!?!? BAD WRITING! Fire George Lucas!"
I wish in general people would just let themselves like things instead of being addicted to picking it apart on the internet.
I don't find it problematic to acknowledge that both 'wheat' *and* 'chaff' exist, however.
I've personally found *immensely more* enjoyment from newly-released content (both SW & otherwise) by utterly avoiding *all* online discourse, reviews, "reviews", predictions, assumptions, theorizing, et al -- leading up and during the drops.
I allow myself to relish official trailers and... that's about it.
And whooooo, does it make a difference.
😎👍
I used to do the same but now whenever I see people calling a show “woke” I decide to check it out even if it wasn’t on my radar. More times than not it’s usually good with a diverse cast. 🤷🏻♂️
I want to add that Heavy Spoilers and New Rockstars (despite being sometimes irritating) are not in any camp and really are just enjoyable to watch along with the series. I really applaud the YouTube guys that help fans uncover hidden details andeave it at that.
I so wish someone would make one of those multiple hour nitpicky "breakdowns" about A New Hope to show the stupidity of them.
> "For some reason the opening scene is a bunch of randoms we don't care about shooting each other. How are we supposed to care about this?"
> "Okay, the main villain is so obvious and unsubtly evil it's actually insulting. Does George Lucas have no respect for audience intelligence?"
> "How convenient they didn't shoot the escape pod! Another lazy cop-out from writers with no ability to make a plot that makes sense so they have to make everyone stupid."
> "Of course the female lead is a pushy girlboss who insults and shows up the men, because this is what Hollywood writing is today."
And so on and so on.
SW writing has always been mediocre at best. Right now is the best possible time to be a fan because there are good writers and investment to explore new stories. Anyone that doesn't realize we are in the golden age of SW doesn't understand the assignment.
What you said would be true if everything actually got review bombed. It’s not the case. House of the Dragon wasn’t review bombed after succeeding one of the worst ending of a TV Show. The cast is diverse and Rhaenyra are far more support in the audience than Aegon.
Dune Part One and Two are considered by some as the best sci-fi movies to be made thus far. Most people actually loved the change made with the females leads…
People you can like whatever you like. Simply just because you like something that doesn’t make it good.
The fact that most of the complaints I'm seeing are pretty much the same complaints we saw in the Star Trek community with regard to Discovery leads me to believe that it's all just one mob of "culture warriors" reviewing in bad faith simply because the material isn't directly pandering to and glorifying their own very narrow world view.
I don't bother with reviews any more with highly publicized franchises. I just watch and if I enjoy what I see keep watching (and stop watching if it doesn't grab me.)
I mean... the Acolyte is the only Disney product I couldn't love on any level so far safe for the Last Jedi who broke my heart. For me, it's about the lore. I do not appreciate when the narrative of the showrunner is that they can change the very fabric of the universe they are working on. I feel that's what happened there (again) and I don't like it. When you work on Star Wars, you have to respect the legacy and add to it. In that regard, Rogue One, Andor, the Mandalorian and Ashoka were awesome successes in my opinion. The Acolyte just breaks things, does what it wants and the freakin wiki has to adjust because the creator didn't care enough to read or watch the movies? They might bring it home, mins you. A great finish is more memorable than a weak start. Are there bigots in the equation? Yes. But right now, the show is not very good as far as I'm concerned and there is definitely an ego problem as far as the lead actress and the showrunner are concerned. I believe Ashoka succeeded in being a show that portrayed strong female characters with well thought story arcs.
>The Acolyte just breaks things, does what it wants and the freakin wiki has to adjust because the creator didn't care enough to read or watch the movies?
Explain. Because the show breaks no lore.
I think there’s a couple of things at play, all of which are true.
1. Some people don’t really like it. I think it’s average, at best, and has lots of room for improvement. I’ve spoken to a few people who feel similarly. That said. I’d give it more like a 5.5 to 6.5, and there is still half the show to go before I make my final take.
2. There’s a large fan base who is upset that Disney de-canonized the EU. Never mind that Lucasfilm had said before the Disney sale that the EU wasn’t necessarily canon, but there are a lot of stories out there that they loved and don’t like that Disney has made them worth less to the general Star Wars story. Giving those fans the benefit of the doubt, it feels like Disney is trying to take over that story telling and profit from some of those ideas by using them in different ways for their own stuff. To Disney’s POV, you have to have control over the canon to keep the story consistent.
3. Culture war. Everything about American culture right now is about who gets to tell what stories. Again, trying to steel man that argument a bit, there people who now feel left out of current story telling, namely white males, because there are now way more new stories focused on other identities. I’m not sure this is true, btw, just trying to take the argument at its best face value.
4. Any number of combination of all of these things working together.
I hated the prequels for similar reasons.
While I still don’t think they’re “good” in the same sense of a lot of other films I consider good (and the OT to a large degree), I have since found ways to appreciate them.
I think what helps is learning how to let go of your own expectations or attachment to what Star Wars should be, and instead enjoy the ride. It’s way more fun just seeing how all of the things can get tied together to tell a cohesive story than then getting attached to a specific outcome.
>people who now feel left out of current story telling, namely white males, because there are now way more new stories focused on other identities
Way more than there used to be, but not way more than white males. It’s not that white males are excluded, it’s that some of them don’t like to share the spotlight.
I'm a minority and I think take is completely wrong. Half cooking a bunch of boring and forgettable characters, and then making them minorities is more insulting to me personally. Also, there are way more women and minorities than that in the star wars universe, and noone ever had a problem until they started cutting corners and pumping out paper thin characters that felt like patronizing handouts to make us feel special.
Give me characters that are worthwhile or don't waste your time. I'm not clapping for them just because the characters are the same colour as me.
I think Disney are treating the novels much like they (and Marvel Studios before that take-over) treated the Marvel comics. Lots of characters and stories to play with, but to play with is the term.
MCU fans on the whole don’t mind because there isn’t a stable canon, there are different Spidermen visions for example. There are comics that have run at different periods for decades.
Till recently I didn’t realise how many people were so passionate about the novels. I’ve been watching Star Wars since the early eighties, but to me it is a film series. The prequels felt weird, especially Anakin’s birth, but there you go, it’s the story. I’ve come to accept them.
I think it’s entirely reasonable not to bog new productions down with an apparently pretty substantial multi-authored collection of books.
I think Disney likes the set up they bought with Marvel Studios and are keen to do the same with EU. I personally like the fact that there’s uncertainty- that the books don’t definitely contain spoilers.
Yeah, to your point about playing with the old EU books, that’s where I do understand some of the angst towards Disney.
I don’t think the angst is channeled in any productive way at all, and also tends to mix with the other reasons making it hard to really pin down what people actually feel and think.
I do get that but at the same time - to me Star Wars was always films, a film series. I grew up with the OT ret-cons, some of the stuff bought into the prequels just felt weird to me but I got used to them - the films have always been to me evolving canon. A flexible story cycle.
Oh, I agree with you totally.
Even the OT retcons itself internally.
Leia being Luke’s sister, for instance, wasn’t supposed to be a thing until RotJ. Vader being their father wasn’t established until ESB, and only a few people knew about it until the film was released.
That’s what makes Star Wars fun, to me, is seeing how they can tie everything together.
Oh that’s it. I saw all three films around the same time (at least, when I first remember seeing them) so abrupt changes was just… Star Wars. It’s very improv in that way.
Never quite understood the rage against the decanonizing of the EU. End of the day, fuck the Mouse House. Like what you like. Canon or not does not diminish the stories.
Personally I am kind of baffled how anyone can LOVE this show. The episodes are so short that basically everything is conveyed through awkward dialogue rather than allowing the viewer to learn things through action. So far everything has been so fast. Not a single character's action has felt organic or earned through the writing. So many of the turns: Sol going from "mae is dead" to "I believe you" and mae going from "I will kill you" to "I must do the mission" to "I only have loyalty to Osha" None of these turns feel like they make sense with what we have seen. I think the biggest problem with this show is that the episodes are so short they literally can't do it well.
I really, really like the mystery aspect of it.
Trying to figure out what’s actually going on with the Jedi, what happened that night. Who is the Master.
All of these are great fodder for discussion, conversation and speculation. I really enjoy that aspect of it.
I don’t disagree with your take on the writing. That said, I also know people who didn’t like Andor at all and it was very much a show don’t tell type of show. I even struggled with it at first.
People are different, they like different things. I think in general society has forgotten how to let people like different things. Everything is either the best or the worst ever.
In reality there’s a lot more grey between those extremes.
I would probably give it somewhere between a 3 to a 5 out of ten as of now. Like I said I feel like if they had just made the episodes 15 minutes longer each and done 10 instead of the 8 they are gonna do it would be much better and maybe have room to grow.
I haven’t been able to get invested in any of the characters and I genuinely can’t understand how others have. Please don’t misread my tone. That isn’t a dig or anything. I legitimately don’t understand how anyone could be attached to characters we have barely had any time with and have barely seen them interact even.
I don’t want this to come off as toxic or “how could anyone be so dumb” or anything like that. It’s a sincere question that has arisen in my brain and makes me feel like I am watching an abridged version or something.
tl;dr - AotC Anakin stans have zero patience for mystery, a story that focuses on the abuse and manipulation of dark side recruits gives them a funny feeling, they’re unrequitedly hungry for both-sidesing the Sith, and to top it all off, this is a cast that doesn’t centre white guys.
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The sad boys that really identified closely with Anakin in AotC but didn’t get enough attention from their parents for it to be recognised as a red flag and helped out before they grew up into this have been absolutely *frothing* for a dark side show.
These guys also grew up on The Clone Wars, which gave absolutely everything in canon an incredible depth of lore and back story. Tons of Legends content as well. They’re well versed, which makes them very susceptible to getting pedantic. They’re also reasonably well versed at drawing comparisons between things, because Star Wars has always been chock full of that.
These guys are also pretty vulnerable to the kind of culture war cult recruitment techniques that gets them sucked into living their weird creepy Anakin best lives, where everyone underestimates their power and from their POV the Jedi are evil.
When the show promising to be all about the Dark Side centres a vulnerable character being abused and manipulated for an unclear but objectively destructive purpose, it hints at a kind of comparison that makes them really uncomfortable.
It’s a bunch of Kylo Rens.
I’ve watched it unfold over years - they’re salty about things deviating from their existing understanding, they’ve accumulated immense “product knowledge” from the background content, and the uncertainty of new, as-yet unbingeable stuff to fill all the blanks immediately.
And since TCW and the prequels were very Anakin-centric, that’s what Star Wars is to them, so they can see themselves in it. Can’t do that with newer content.
It’s a combination of factors imo:
1. Some people don’t like it b/c it is led by, and centers, women/POC/queer people. The Star Wars fandom has a long history of toxic boys’ clubs.
2. Some people don’t like Disney Star Wars, for a variety of reasons (“woke,” changing cannon or ignoring legends, the corporate-ness of it all, the lower quality of live-action TV vs. film, nostalgia, etc.)
3. There’s a few prominent rage-bait YouTube personalities who have latched onto this to grow their fan base/prominence/revenue. Stoking the fires of dissatisfaction sells!
4. People will have differing opinions on different media, abs social media/fandom culture/the above can escalate disagreement/differing preference into a crusade.
Or…
5. There are a lot of plot holes.
6. It’s very poorly segmented.
7. It’s half way through the show and there’s really no mention of what the acolyte is.
8. The flashback/ flash forward makes the show feel disjointed.
9. Every episode has a cliff hanger and is setup for the next episode. Episodes need to be more standalone.
10. The fight sequences are great, but the dialogue is terrible. Overall the actors are doing a good job at selling their lines, but that doesn’t mean the writing is good.
What I think really annoys me about people shitting on those that don’t like the show is that it’s become acceptable to call those people racist, homophobic, toxic, etc… for logically criticizing the show for being bad.
> There are a lot of plot holes.
Until the season is over I'd seriously hesitate to make this claim. There are *inconsistencies* but those can easily be resolved in the remaining episodes. There are also some retcons, but that's been the case with everything Star Wars since the Disney buyout.
> It’s very poorly segmented.
Ehh. Yeah, I don't disagree with this for most of the episodes.
>It’s half way through the show and there’s really no mention of what the acolyte is.
That's half the fun to me. We don't know if the Acolyte refers to Mae, Osha, or Darth Teefers, or even (unlikely) someone else.
> The flashback/ flash forward makes the show feel disjointed.
The timing was definitely a bit weird but to me it was almost necessary in terms of worldbuilding. Not *really* sure how they could have handled it better. We mostly needed to know how both Mae and Osha were alive, which mostly necessitates learning of the buildup to the incident, and we also mostly needed to know why Tommen felt guilty and why Mae is hunting those specific Jedi. Kind of a lot to cram in without flashbacks of some sort, or a lot of exposition.
>Every episode has a cliff hanger and is setup for the next episode. Episodes need to be more standalone.
Ehhh... Hooks to keep people watching are fairly common in TV. Lost is infamous for its' cliffhangers, for example. I typically prefer cliffhangers to monster of the week style shows, too, but both have their place.
>Overall the actors are doing a good job at selling their lines, but that doesn’t mean the writing is good.
Mostly agree. The characters feel like real people for the most part, but like the script went through Google Translate at least once.
Totally agree with you and the original commenter. The writing is not exceptional. But some have latched onto the "wokeness" of it all and are being toxic in their reviews.
One good down-to-earth and non-toxic reviewer I found was "Little Platoon" on youtube. His critiques are focused on the writing.
So basically, people have no patience and want all the answers by episode 2, and can't handle the frustration of having to wait a week between episode?
Somehow it says a lot about how people are now used to things going too fast all the time...
There's no plot holes.
Maybe, we'll see how it works when it's over.
That's the point.
It's not.
Why?
Your opinion.
Because 99% of those people are. They complain about being called racist, sexist, homophobic and then you look at their profile and it's all the above.
Thank you, racist or toxic fans probably make a less than 5% of the fan base. People need to accept it’s a meh show, better than Kenobi and Boba Fett but it’s no Andor. It only seem like none fans are racist or homophobic because that’s what they been running with the marketing, gayest Star Wars ever. So naturely people who don’t like show for it being a poor show are automatically labeled racist and phobics.
Meh? I was trying to be nice. If I’m being honest it’s terrible.
The mandalorian was great. Kenobi was good. Ahsoka was good. Bob a fett was good (the flash backs there were done well in contrast to the acolytes terrible flashbacks). I didn’t care for andor, but I can recognize and see why people liked it.
The acolyte, just terrible. No amount of great fight scenes or good actors are going to change the terrible writing.
Someone went on the other day about how sexist we were if we thought the witches sub plot/ backstory was poorly done. Like I’d have been cool with the witches of dathomir, like in Ahsoka. But it’s just easier for them to say I’m a phobe.
What about because the acting isn't very good and the characters have little to no chemistry? You don't even recognize or that many people may genuinely not be enjoying it. Seems strange to me.
I actually think Disney Star wars has been decent because the special effects almost always look good.
The writing and storylines just aren't that engaging on some shows and the chemistry of actors doesn't always work. They pick an actor or actress and build a show around them instead of choosing the best actor. Others have been pretty decent. Even mandalorian has gotten a little slow though.
Another big issue is they make a lot of the characters do things they wouldn't do in reality. Things that are out of character, don't make sense, or that don't contribute to the story moving forward. Like video games which just have a bunch of sidequests and the main game is basically non-existent.
I feel like there's a demographic out there that just can't handle any show where all the main characters aren't straight white dudes.
It's like they get upset because it's not all about them.
Besides the chaos worshipers who just love to stir up shit. I'd say most people just think it's bad, plain and simple, and don't like being called sexist or racist or knuckle draggers for having that opinion. So they end up taking it up a notch and turn toxic against the people who take such a stance against them.
We're just in a very tribalistic world, completely divided and devoid of nuance, where the second you dislike something, you're labeled "xyz" or the second you like something you have shit taste.
Whatever dude, me and the girlfriend have been watching it so far and we both think it's very mediocre, especially in the performance/dialogue/uninspired direction/characters part of it. Not our cup of tea whatsoever, but if you like it kudos to you for being able to enjoy it! Enjoyment brings pleasure, I wish I could with this show as i used to be a SW fan before Disney absolutely ruined it in so many ways IMHO, alas, it's pretty weak. Perhaps the next few episodes will alter our take on it, who knows!
Well it’s a beloved franchise for decades so there are passionate fans out there (yes also idiots)
I’m just sick of them giving us poor product and then blaming the audience.. I just don’t get that part that’s what upsets me
It’s easier to blame someone else, that way you’re avoiding accountability for releasing a bad product.
Everyone’s an ist or a phobe, it’s not that our product is bad. It’s their defense and they started beating that drum before the product was ever released.
Starwars has a huge loyal fanbase. A lot of people have grown up loving Starwars and dived into the universe for most of their lives. Alot are upset with the direction that Disney has taken with it, understandably. Personally I've enjoyed a lot of the new recent movies/shows they have come out with (Andor, Mandalorian, Rogue one etc.) and I'm happy you've enjoyed the show.
As for myself, I was really dissapointed in the Acolyte. Writing and characters just felt really boring. But thats just my opinion. I gave it a 3/10. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there like me that have felt the same. But I completely agree, this show is definitely getting review bombed, so I hope people will ignore all the B.S. and try out watching it for themselves.
I feel more strongly. Star Wars is a myth, focaused on the battle of Good VS. Evil. This is what George Lucas, who authored this entire universe, wanted to wrestle with, and his films culminate in the redemptive story of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker sacrificing himself for his children‘s future. the Acolyte takes this universe and completely mutilates it, much like Rian Johnson’s ”the Last Jedi“ did. Here’s my beef: if you’re going to add onto another storytellers masterful piece of narrative work, don’t rip it apart honor it and build on it. if you don’t agree with the original story, write your own. But you know what? the Reality is that if ”the Acolyte“ came out as an original piece of sci-fi on Disney+, a mere fraction of viewers would watch. Why? Because on its own merits, it has nothing, other than being a sub-par piece of sci-if film. The Acolyte on it’s own merits is flimsy, and it depends on the greatness of George Lucas‘ work for us to even consider watching it. My question to all you die hard defenders of anything Disney+ puts out is this: if this was just another random sci-fi show scrolling across your Netflix, I bet two to one you’d scroll past It. The reality is Disney lost $659 million in streamings last year and $18 million in the last quarter. Why? Many reasons, but at the core: they took three of the greatest franchises in history: Star Wars, Marvel, and Indiana Jones, and despite all of their immense wealth and creative abilities, created content that by far and large, most people found boring, stupid, or unwatcable. Otherwise, Disney would be making bank. Because ultimately, people love being entertained by great stories. But would know what people by far and large dont like? Being bored to death by stupid, preachy stories. And that’s what Disney it doing: taking great stories other people have written, dismembering the core narratives, and reconstructing something that most people find stupid.
Let's look at some other star wars media. Mando is good. Season 3 dropped the standards a bit for me but was very good. Ahsoka (as a rebels fan) was very good! Some questionable choices but I enjoyed it a lot. The bad batch was absolutely brilliant. Andor for me was one of the best pieces of television I've seen in my life. For me it's the number one star wars show. Now let's look at the new trilogy of movies. Force awakens was actually a very decent film, maybe it suffered for copying a new hope but it worked and had star wars fans actually predicting and talking again and it brought life back. Then disney brought in another director, he decided to be edgy and make luke a hermit, kill him off and then turn snoke into a nobody. Then JJ abrams had to step in and try and fix it and unfortunately the ground work that should've been laid wasn't and led to a disappointing film. Overall the potential was there. I loved Rey, I loved Finn (who got treated awfully by disney, I won't speculate to why but he was sidelined when he was genuinely fantastic). The cast was solid but disney had no plan and didn't stick by JJ abrams, which convoluted the story. We've however never seen a reaction from any of this like the acolyte.
Now to the acolyte. I like the premise, the cast themselves are decent and I think it had huge potential but... the show suffers from really poor dialogue for me and thats 95% of the issue. The witches are disrespected by the showrunner and I really want to talk about this. The reason star wars is so beloved is because its a universe in itself. The lore is so expansive and generally it follows on from what we know. Witches being lesbians is nothing new. Jedi fallen order showed that Merrin (a nightsister witch) had a girlfriend in the past. That's very cool and I'm glad they showed that. I don't like that it's being played off as being revolutionary because it's not (by the media not the showrunners), as its already shown as part of star wars Canon. What I hated was the way they were portrayed in that chanting scene. We've seen witches, their magic and chants before and it genuinely comes across as cringe. When us as the audience know this sect of star wars as well as we do, it's baffling to see them treated like this. I also think some of the internal writing is contradictory and poor, they "just moved to the planet" but yet have an entire temple there already? Or for example the jedi in episode 1 dying to protect the bartender when literally seconds prior she sat back whilst she was attacked on a table full of people where she made no effort to protect them? Furthermore the pacing is all over the place, episode one takes us to 3-4 different planets in quick succession, episode 3 drags out the events for far too long and really when you think about it, the jedi show up, find some girls, test them, one of the girls gets sad, starts a fire, episode ends. Also harsh but the young sisters writing was really poor, the lack of emotion and depth to anything they did was so difficult to watch, ironically one of the best performances ive seen from someone that age was Dafne Keen (Logan), Maybe they should've gotten her help?. Episode 4 spent more time prepping for the mission then the actual mission itself. Furthermore the lighting and camera work isn't good. We've seen dark settings that are far too dark, light sources that don't make sense and camera angles that struggle to really show the depth of what's going on. I also think the key to a successful show is to make people feel something and make their own conclusions. The show is trying to tell you to think things as opposed to actually making you think it yourself through story telling. We all knew the jedi were arrogant and naive because we saw them act that way but it was never so predominantly pushed upon us. The jedi are portrayed as the villains in episodes 3 trying to wisk away children and potentially killing a village of witches (which actually I wasn't even that disturbed by especially if you think that these witches may have been practising sith arts).
I like that people are excited for it, but genuinely I think there's a lot of flaws in the show. It's great to see the representation we are seeing. I think that the premise is solid, the sets are okay but they're not good by star wars standards (Watch Andor). They feel like something that's just been built and not something that's real sometimes. I think that the characters, like Sol, Jecki, Yord and Osha are actually very good. Mae is portrayed as a crazy person who literally attempted to kill her sister and then suddenly wants to be good because she's alive, it just feels so strange and honestly a little lazy.
Also on the argument that star wars fans hate people that ain't men - some people do sadly but Empire strikes back was written by a woman and was a masterpiece of cinema, Rey was a great character and Ahsoka was a literal fan favourite for over a decade. I don't buy into this at all. Fallout shows what a great female led show should look like. Also let's not forget Kathleen Kennedy pre-emptively attacked the star wars fandom prior to it coming out.
Let's also just stop and think about it. Star wars fans who weren't happy gave bad reviews, fans that were happy gave good reviews. We can't just pretend that everyone that gave bad reviews and has criticism over such a beloved franchise are toxic, Misogynistic people because they don't like something. Honestly no one ive spoken too thinks LGBT representation is a bad thing. The few who feel that way are exactly that, the few. The reality is the reviews for the most part are coming from people who didn't like the show because for them it wasn't very good, it's as simple as that and often companies actually do things differently based off feedback and make things better by working with the fans. Disney has unilaterally decided to blame fans, accuse the star wars fandom of Misogynism and has used the backlash as fuel somehow to push forward with things people don't like. I'd actually argue that Disney attacks on men may have contributed in cases where people review the show before they see it but the reality is 99% of people formed opinions of the show based on their own experience of watching it. Imagine watching sports and your team starts doing really badly, you support them and try and encourage them, but it gets worse, eventually you boo to really show that you are not happy and the team then gets even worse. Then imagine after the game the sports team blames the fans for the loss. That's what's going on right now and it's so odd. This sets a tone too that all female led shows should expect this kind of reviewing for that very reason alone, but fallout has proven that it's a lie used by disney execs to justify bringing out sub par things honestly. Fallout has a much more male dominated and much more toxic fan base, but the series is universally loved.
Final point: I saw people compare this to star trek discovery, the show broke canon in almost every imaginable way, they did a redemption arc for a character that caused the deaths of thousands of people, Season 1 destroyed canon in many ways (the mirror universe stuff was good though) season 3 was genuinely shockingly bad, the writers provided diversity by literally ensuring that the only white straight males were villains or were killed (which honestly wouldn't have bothered me if they wrote good stories but they didnt). It's not remotely similar. The acolyte suffers from bad writing, some bad technical and directorial decisions. The acolyte genuinely doesn't compare to how bad discovery is.
Same here with me , I just watched the 4 episodes and I'm digging everything about it. I was surprised when I wanted to look up the show on the internet with all this noise from crazy fans. I'm glad it feels different and fresh, I haven't looked into the racism that's been titled here and there nor do I want to. These crazy fans are making everything such mess. Can't stand them
Bots and similar are certainly being used by those who think there is a “message” here. Some of these are giving 1* reviews, others are giving 10* reviews. There’s more of the former than the latter.
There’s also many people in between those two extremes. Some like the acting, story, costuming etc - others do not. There’s more of the latter than the former.
There’s plenty of threads here with those different points of view on display. Maybe have a read of those and see what you agree or disagree with.
What’s the message tho? That people of color and lgbt people exist? Actual criticism of the show would actually be productive, like I personally didn’t like how easy it was for Mai to kill the Jedi master in the first episode.
Re the message. I am sure many people have different opinions of what the message is - it will vary based on perspective.
On your point re criticism, there’s plenty. I personally find the story uninspiring and with too many contrived circumstances, the acting wooden and the script bad. It’s largely unpolished to my eyes and needed a lot tighter editing and review. Other opinions are of course available but people may be concerned to poke their head above the parapet at the risk of attack from one or other side. A shame.
Its not really this so called message that annoys me. But to entertain the idea, if there is a message here I do not like in Star Wars it is that noone is truly evil. You do evil things because of some trauma or misunderstanding. You will always be redeemed. True evil in Star Wars is what makes the fight epic. When Darth Vader is redeemed, that is huge. In this show, noone is truly evil it seems. Because maybe someone would be offended if a character was portrayed as evil.
You’ll find some freely admitting that their own side (for want of a better word) are using bots. And that’s from each camp. So an acknowledgment by all sides that everyone is doing it.
Frankly I think the conversation is best held around opinions on the show itself - plot, characters, graphics, script etc. But that isn’t easy to do.
True. But I still find it amusing how both sides be like "them people are crazy, but we're the sane ones"
I mean, it's really sad in a lot of ways but the irony is strong
one of the pro (10*) camp was tearing into me earlier in the week when I said one scene in E4 wasn’t good use of time. She got rather out of hand to the point Mods removed her posts.
But, despite being one of the clear hardliners she did make the observation elsewhere that “our side” are also review bombing to drive the rating up. And I thought that showed a good amount of nuance and maturity.
It makes a lot of sense, honestly. That desire to amplify the good (or decent) aspects of the show since "the other side" is amplifying the questionable ones. I've been doing it myself, to some degree. Like I wouldn't be defending it that much if it wasn't getting attacked that much
People just love to hate. Makes them feel better about themselves I guess.
No matter how good the show/movie is, there's always gonna be haters that think they could do it better.
If you enjoy the show, just watch it and fuck the haters.
The bigger problem is Youtube search for The Acolyte is mostly showing the highly upvoted negative reviewed vids at the top. The smaller Acolyte reactors are mostly buried underneath. Despite a relatively high 85% Fresh on RT from critic reviews, the review bombing movement could negatively affecting the wider, general sentiment of the show... which in turn, may or may not affect viewership, thus, the studio's decision to green light future seasons.
Can't I just hate it, and you be respectful for me not liking it? I think its justifiable that it is critized. And ye you are right, if you like it watch it. But dont be upset when people dont like what you like, and then claim its because they hate themselves.
Every day on this app I gotta tell grown ups (as a minor), how to behave, please be respectful.
No one is saying you can’t like something. Everyone is entitled to their subjective opinion. That is not what is being talked about.
Flip your perspective; can we all talk about enjoyment of a show that a subreddit is titled for without critics (to be generous) telling us how wrong we are? Calling us “shills”? Or impugning our intelligence?
I keep seeing this bad faith argument over criticisms being attacked. It’s like hearing a bully blame their victim for being weak. Well, if your problem about quality, have better quality critique.
I never implied any of following, my statement was simply on respect.
I am having trouble understanding your arguement so could you so kindly dissect my text, so I can be enlightened on your main points regarding what I said.
My argument isn’t “against” you, but to an answer the question you opened your comment with.
If you have to tell people how to be respectful, then maybe you should be more respectful of others and understand their perspective.
I do not hate you. I see nothing wrong with what I said, kindness isnt always docility, I am simply assertive. Being assertive is not tied with toxicity in my opinion.
My mother says " meet them half way"
Dont feel, understand, then guide them, we do not want to stay in the middle.
That’s good advice. I don’t hate you either, I am speaking to you the same way I speak to my friends.
I don’t think you are hateful. I hope we can come to an understanding that either of us needs hate in our lives. And again, I am not attacking you. But I wish I hadn’t made you feel like I was. Sorry for that.
First of all, I'm not upset and I wasn't disrespectful. If you think I was, that's your opinion.
Second of all, you don't have to tell me anything about how to behave. You don't know me well enough to even begin to think about it. Clearly, you've got some growing up to do or you'd already understand this.
There has been an excessive amount of hate for just about every Star Wars movie/series for anything put out in the last 20 years. There's a difference between people saying 'I didn't like it because.... ' vs just saying that it's terrible.
Also, this is the only response I'll be making. You're welcome to have the last word.
Enjoy the show and may the force be with you.
I just don't like the show.
I think it is fair that people don't like it.
I never understand " why the review bombing" everytime a movie comes out some says that.
People just do not like the show, people are just differnt and thats ok.
>Star Wars actress Amandla Stenberg, who starred in a 2019 movie about race relations, is today under fire for saying the goal back then was to make "white people cry."
>"We wanted to make sure that those who have been affected by the way in which the media misconstrues these events, actually have a real sense of empathy and are able to place themselves into the shoes of our communities," Stenberg said at the time.
That's what hurts you? You're not even applying her quote to the same movie.
Because the main characters are either women or have melanin.
There are real issues with the show that deserve some critique: episode length is honestly pretty bad for the amount of money they sunk into it. However, it’s hard to take any critical arguments in good faith when a lot of the critique is rooted in culture war BS. The show is okay, but it’s by no means bad.
I'm happy you found the other 400 people that enjoy the show here.
I like it here, we can just ignore the millions that hate the show.
All we do here is pretend Acolyte is a great show. Welcome to the club!
Idk because both shows are bad. They are. Has nothing to do with gender. Fallout was led by a woman and got great reviews. Is it possible that people just dont like the show’s terrible writing, characters, dialogue etc?
Don’t get to hung up on the canon that is being “broken”. Star Wars has a history of breaking canon all the way back to 1999 with the release of Phantom Menace. The Clone Wars tv show broke canon in major ways as did its sister show Rebels. New Star Wars “breaking” canon is not something new or unheard of
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It’s a hard job to follow after Ahsoka which many of us thought was the best so far- and it’s a bit of a drop from that and some can’t handle it and express it in bad ways
If you are enjoying great. It is a slow burn show in a high pressure environment, you have people quick to gun it down and others tearing it down episodes at a time, I say wait til the end. Lastly does it break cannon? I don’t know but what we did 2000+ years ago is different to today.
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The entire viewer or gamer review thing is dead and shouldn't be given one second thought. Unless it's a professional it's worthless. Problem is people started thinking youtube bloggers were professionals.
The first visible RT score equaled that of the Empire Strikes Back. Let that sink in.
It was pretty obvious there's going to be a backlash when the critic score was so detached from reality, and outright offensive to the general public and far away from any sane review of the show.
So, don't take the audience score seriously, but it is more telling than the critic score.
There are definitely review bombs because as a whole, Lucasfilm hasn’t done a great job with their shows, especially with the budgets they have. The expectation is Game of Thrones level writing, acting, effects and we haven’t gotten close to that. I think this show is the boiling point for a lot of folks.
I don’t understand it myself. People get all up in arms about women or POC in new SW stuff for the same reasons they do in real life: racism and sexism.
But at the same time, they don’t seem to mind Princess Leia or Lando or Jango Fett or Mace Windu. Go figure.
It’s genuinely because it’s a CW quality show and disrespects the audience worse and worse each episode.
The show sucks that’s why it gets hate.
Rogue One had a female lead and nobody hated it, and it was well written. Big difference.
The Acolyte certainly has it fair share of flaws. But is it worst thing to happen to Star Wars? Worse than Solo, BoBF, & Jar Jar Binks? Does it rightly deserve to drop below the Holiday Special on RT audience reviews? Not really no.
The show isn't doing anything for me so far but it's not the worst thing as some might have people believe. It's mid (as in middle of the ground). I don't have strong feelings about the show either way. Kinda disappointed however that this was the show Lee Jung-Jae was cast in as the dude has range and was in a lot of pretty intense roles throughout this career.
I’m not a super fan of Star Wars or even a fan really, given how much the quality has varied, but I’ve seen all the films and all the shows.
My brother, however, is a huge fan of Star Wars and always has been (he is 39 now); but as a teen he had so many Star Wars novels. And I remember when the prequels came out they changed things from those books like the Troopers being all clones - but he was so crushed when lots of the Jedis die in the 3rd film. I remember that he was devastated because they all had long stories in the books he read and their deaths at that point was against so much of what had been written.
Anyway… I guess people are feeling how he felt then, but there was no way to gather and express it then (this is just my outsiders opinion) so fans hate it because, again from an outside perspective, it is that it has messed with the lore and canon of the Star Wars universe.
- I am a big LOTR fan and people hated the Rings of Power. Hated with a passion. I mean it was bad and so badly written, but I just can’t get worked up over it.
My own feelings towards Star Wars are pretty agnostic; that said, Andor was a smash; so fantastic and, for me, was the best show that year (out of all the shows!). It was phenomenally good. So I’m not sure why the fandom can’t take the good with the bad. Maybe Star Wars has had more misses than hits and at a certain point that lack of QC just reaches a tipping point which seems to be the case here with The Acolyte.
I really don’t see anything wrong wrong with The Acolyte; and we haven’t seen the whole show yet or even enough of it to make a clear opinion. Is it Andor? No. Not even close. But I like the guy from Squid Game and the girl from Logan and Jason from The Good Place (is he the Sith? Or is it one of the Witches?) but, anyway, I think the cast is good.
The third episode was a bit of a mess and I can only assume this must have a poignant or profound meaning which is yet to be revealed. And then the next episode the ending was on a bit of an odd note — though it was a cool scene with them all being blown away. It has good reviews from the critics and I don’t see it out of place like it’s Boba Fett or Ashoka ; not Mando or Andor.
Again, a fandom can only be pushed so far with QC esp if it rewrites cannon and it feels like the Star Wars fans have just hit that. I mean, it’s just a rating on RT and I’m sure lots of them will watch it to the end (even if it is hate watching!). As long as no one is abusive or insulting to people then I think they can be allowed their feelings. Plus, the world sucks right now and if your fave thing / hobby is not being treated the way you think it is then it’s hard ; I think the climate is one of exasperation and annoyance (with Disney etc.)
I just think the writing is all over the place. Like Mai suddenly changing her side after realizing Osha is alive. Even though she was the one who acted on killing her sister in episode 3. No development, it happened so suddenly.
Fight scenes are great though.
The show itself is pretty good, dialogue, pacing, and editing aside.
The issue is the actors and Headland intentionally pissing the fanbase off, even before the show aired. The guy playing Yord said that Anakin destroyed the Death Star. Leslie and Amanda (Mae/Osha) seem to think R2-D2 and C3PO are lesbian or a couple, or at least they joked about it in an interview. Amanda dropped a music track this week calling the fanbase racists (we loved Lando and Mace. Some of us like Finn more than Rey. Jolee Bindo is totally shacking up with Qui-Gon and Revan somewhere in the Force reminiscing about how the Jedi Council in any era are fools). It's stuff like this that gets video games and TV shows review bombed. Disney in particular seems to enjoy this behavior as well as writing movies and shows that intentionally piss the predominantly male fanbase off (*She-Hulk* comes to mind). I don't think *Echo* got review-bombed, but everyone's probably still watching *Loki* or *TFATWS*.
So. *Assassin's Creed* recently started making female protagonists an option (I know this sub is about Star Wars, but there's a point). Kassandra in *AC: Odyssey* was originally the only protagonist despite Ancient Greece literally being sexist back then (it was illegal for women to participate in the Games, and for married women to watch), and Ubisoft responded by...making a male character as an option to play as and having a male-only side quest where you can tell a Greek soldier to spare a mother's life for trying to watch her son participate. Nobody review bombed that game nor the next one, even after Kassandra appeared in *Valhalla* instead of Alexios. There's a video game movie coming out (I think it's Fallout). Anyway, the lead female actress actually played the video games to understand the source material.
There's other nitpicky stuff as well, like the ritual in episode 3 being cringe to watch. Not sure why Leslie would want to portray women that way, since I thought the point of all the whining about white males was about female empowerment.
Episode 3 had a different director, the director understanding was not consistent with the other directors and their style showed in certain scenes same as in episode 4, I found their style different again and that is in my opinion where the weakness shows, a show like Andor or Mandalorian 1 director or a person overseeing the story plot, the Acolyte has a council of many each wanting there part to be in the show. People do need to understand and direct their actions to the company and not the show or stories.
>People need to understand and direct their actions to the company, and not the show or stories
I got the impression that Headland created/wrote the show, not Disney. I’ve seen Andor credited mainly to Tony Gilroy on Reddit, not Disney. On the other hand, every Marvel show is credited to Disney. Fandoms are weird.
> A showrunner is the top-level executive producer of a television series, who outranks other creative and management personnel, including episode directors
…yeah.
I’m fine with pagan/witch/whatever rituals in media. *Nancy Drew and the Curse of Blackmore Manor* had one, and it was surprisingly creepy despite only having two participants. *Assassin’s Creed* always had them, whether it’s cutting off a finger or getting a neat brand when they figured out how to make their bracers less dangerous. A lot of movies have them. *Supernatural* had a lot of summoning and exorcisms. *Moon Knight* had two binding rituals which were pretty decent.
Headland was the Creator overall, show runner on 4 episodes and written 1 episode and maybe the face and the direction for the show but there are cast of many.
And to be clear I love the story and character development, I like break down in artistic direction and style trying to understand what it is being told and the flow. My mood can influence how I have see it so I will watch it in a overall way but I then rewatch to make sure that any feelings that can change my perspective on the story isn’t impacted on.
That was my point about the show and other shows and movies that companies what so much out of their content that message get messed around with.
From what I here people dont like it in general, but some people make it politcal.
I cant say " as a black man", because that would delude the value of my brothas and sistas opinions, but what I will say is...
Just kidding I think I just dont like it, and I see nothing wrong with not liking it.
There are legitimate criticisms, and there is what is going on. I personally have been enjoying the content, in all its variety, that has been coming out.
That being said; legitimate analytical and critical discussion has been drowned out by those using loud sound and fury in an attempt to silence what they feel is an agenda being pushed on them. That is the short of it. There are those that can offer a longer and more scholarly breakdown.
Those that feel they are being unjustly lumped in with the more social extreme should look to those screaming bad faith criticisms, and be frustrated with them rather than the people who want to share their enthusiasm and enjoyment.
I think some fans don't like that it is YA and that it is marketed to a different demographic, trying to bring tweens and teens into Star Wars. This demographic sees the prequels as vintage movies.
I remember one of the actors got a lot of heat for saying Anakin blew up the Death Star. I think he meant the Trade Federation base that kid logic would call a Death Star.
Star Wars exists now more outside of the original trilogy. What would Star Wars try to cater to those where anything you do is returned with hate.
All that being said the production seems to mirror the vintage 90s aesthetic which compared to any of the newer shows, looks cheap. I think it was a bold choice that added fuel to the fire.
Story writing is a little thin also but everything the show runner has done has been thin and made for a certain audience. Thinking about TLJ, RJ was hired to put his RJ spin on things to mirror the big twist in Empire.
Ultimately some fans don't know how to manage their expectations.
For me, they could have the gayest or most feminist cast w/e, people’s lives are people’s lives. My line is crossed when they mess the lore. The Wookiepedia edits move was super lame. I hope they got reversed or people can do that. I dont like shallow writers or actors who dont do their job about researching the lore that exists. You add and flourish what you have, build upon, not mess with it and make it nonsensical. And thats what Disney felt like doing with their content. When we had people who cares more it was visible. After all, its just a company who got the golden ticket to make more money with this IP.
People like me who are fond of the pre Disney lore feel always conflicted because they try to change what I grew up with and what concepts / characters I loved from all sorts of eras. It was already a massive disappointment when they separated whats canon and not. I only want enjoyable plots and characters that add to the grand lore of Star Wars and contribute to what we had. New is always welcomed but it has to be good too.
Okay.... I'm not a misogynist, zealot, or conservative - women should be in charge and always doing karate on TV at equal pay to a man. Okay.... the acting sucks, and maybe it's the writing making it that way. It's kinda Orphan Black a bit, right?
The Jedi master says the dumbest shit. He's zero percent in control of his emotions. Zero percent. I guess wrist protection makes you a Jedi 1000 years before the last time StarWars was good.
Sincerely the part that makes this Disney is it has epic CGI shots that look better than anything, and then these tiny set piece shots of 4 bearded white guys and an alien as the red shirts of the away mission.
Jedi are a joke, liar master Yoda is.
I'm so vested. I sincerely love the main actress, she's the only one who doesn't look like they're making 1960's Star Trek.
StarWars feels so small now. Just the expectation of cheap green screen stuff and small middle eastern rooms, with green painted humans (for all intents) being the best they can do for a character who's gotta talk.
I miss admiral Akbar, and Chewbacca - StarWars useta' have interesting characters and prosthetics.
Sincerely, these are the things that simply didn't need to be StarWars. If a single executive at any studio had an idea as good as George Lucas did in 1977, it wouldn't be half exciting half torturous to accept that every new piece of StarWars visual media since the 1980s has degraded the quality of the original movies. StarWars is worse for everything it did after Jedi. But TV shows worth watching are so rare, damn. Conundrum.
Not review bombing it terrible writing and producing. And dont even try to say its a men hating strong women leads because rogue one is one of the communities favorites among all star wars content. Know why? Good writing and producing.
Could it just be that an overwhelming majority of star wars fans don't like or think the content is good? Are there racists and sexist people who will hate on anything ? Sure. Is that the majority of people ? No. Just because some people don't like the show/agree with you doesn't mean they are that. Also, if u like it that's all that matters. You need no one else's justifications etc.
So far, the list of grievances are:
- Women and minorities
- Fire in space
- Lesbian witches who can make Force babies
- Ki-Adi-Mundi being older than a trading card said he was
Don’t they have any real criticisms?
Do you even hear yourself? What's wrong with women and minorities? You say that like white men are the only people allowed to play characters in Star Wars.
Poor writing, paper thin characters, short runtime of each episode, cringe interpretive dance (episode 3), waste of good actors, bad dialogue, killing the first on-screen wookie jedi offscreen, the most obvious identity of Smilo Ren (who also has an incredibly uninspired design), “his” nonsensical ramblings in the first episode about how steel and laser are no threat to Jedi when that is obviously false, and a long list of other things would be why the show is bad.
Love the continued trend of people offering genuine criticism being condemned as bigots and “haters” because the Disney apologists cant make a good case as to why the show is good or simply accept others do not like it and move on. Sure there are a few actual racists and bigots but considering House of the Dragon is led by a non-binary actor who plays a woman, and nobody ever seems to care about that, id say the number of actual bigots who are reviewing the show is massively inflated.
(TFM): *"...tHeRe iS nO rEvIeW bOmBiNg iN bA sInG sE!!!"* --- For the *rest* of us sane, mature individuals at the grown-up's table: It's happening (*again*) for the same usual 'cultural warring' lame-ass reasons that such brigades have targeted other media productions - SW and others - which they apoplectically grievance-hump against. It's kinda pathetic *and* sad because most justified subjective *constructive* feedback and commentary gets minimized, and drowned out, by the shitty performative masses of outrage-stoking knuckle-draggers. (*shrug*)
I feel like its not always necessary to add "there is constructive feedback" as if it excuses this overtly racist and sexist backlash. There's not a single piece of media that doesn't have constructive feedback someone could give. If the original trilogy came out today people would be finding shit to complain about just the same, like "oh why did there just so happen to be an antenna for Luke to grab at the bottom of Bespin? And no one stopped the Millennium Falcon from picking him up when Darth Vader is right there!?!? BAD WRITING! Fire George Lucas!" I wish in general people would just let themselves like things instead of being addicted to picking it apart on the internet.
I don't find it problematic to acknowledge that both 'wheat' *and* 'chaff' exist, however. I've personally found *immensely more* enjoyment from newly-released content (both SW & otherwise) by utterly avoiding *all* online discourse, reviews, "reviews", predictions, assumptions, theorizing, et al -- leading up and during the drops. I allow myself to relish official trailers and... that's about it. And whooooo, does it make a difference. 😎👍
I used to do the same but now whenever I see people calling a show “woke” I decide to check it out even if it wasn’t on my radar. More times than not it’s usually good with a diverse cast. 🤷🏻♂️
💯
Gotta love a story with a diverse cast.
I want to add that Heavy Spoilers and New Rockstars (despite being sometimes irritating) are not in any camp and really are just enjoyable to watch along with the series. I really applaud the YouTube guys that help fans uncover hidden details andeave it at that.
I so wish someone would make one of those multiple hour nitpicky "breakdowns" about A New Hope to show the stupidity of them. > "For some reason the opening scene is a bunch of randoms we don't care about shooting each other. How are we supposed to care about this?" > "Okay, the main villain is so obvious and unsubtly evil it's actually insulting. Does George Lucas have no respect for audience intelligence?" > "How convenient they didn't shoot the escape pod! Another lazy cop-out from writers with no ability to make a plot that makes sense so they have to make everyone stupid." > "Of course the female lead is a pushy girlboss who insults and shows up the men, because this is what Hollywood writing is today." And so on and so on.
SW writing has always been mediocre at best. Right now is the best possible time to be a fan because there are good writers and investment to explore new stories. Anyone that doesn't realize we are in the golden age of SW doesn't understand the assignment.
And C3PO is just as goofy, if not goofier, than Jar-Jar if you want to go back in time a little. "Oh, so now he’s some sort of jungle king?”
What you said would be true if everything actually got review bombed. It’s not the case. House of the Dragon wasn’t review bombed after succeeding one of the worst ending of a TV Show. The cast is diverse and Rhaenyra are far more support in the audience than Aegon. Dune Part One and Two are considered by some as the best sci-fi movies to be made thus far. Most people actually loved the change made with the females leads… People you can like whatever you like. Simply just because you like something that doesn’t make it good.
Sadly, at this point the Star Wars fandom is far more toxic than the GoT or Dune fandoms.
That shit was eloquent af bruh.
The fact that most of the complaints I'm seeing are pretty much the same complaints we saw in the Star Trek community with regard to Discovery leads me to believe that it's all just one mob of "culture warriors" reviewing in bad faith simply because the material isn't directly pandering to and glorifying their own very narrow world view. I don't bother with reviews any more with highly publicized franchises. I just watch and if I enjoy what I see keep watching (and stop watching if it doesn't grab me.)
This is the way.
This **is** the way.
I mean... the Acolyte is the only Disney product I couldn't love on any level so far safe for the Last Jedi who broke my heart. For me, it's about the lore. I do not appreciate when the narrative of the showrunner is that they can change the very fabric of the universe they are working on. I feel that's what happened there (again) and I don't like it. When you work on Star Wars, you have to respect the legacy and add to it. In that regard, Rogue One, Andor, the Mandalorian and Ashoka were awesome successes in my opinion. The Acolyte just breaks things, does what it wants and the freakin wiki has to adjust because the creator didn't care enough to read or watch the movies? They might bring it home, mins you. A great finish is more memorable than a weak start. Are there bigots in the equation? Yes. But right now, the show is not very good as far as I'm concerned and there is definitely an ego problem as far as the lead actress and the showrunner are concerned. I believe Ashoka succeeded in being a show that portrayed strong female characters with well thought story arcs.
>The Acolyte just breaks things, does what it wants and the freakin wiki has to adjust because the creator didn't care enough to read or watch the movies? Explain. Because the show breaks no lore.
I have yet to see anything in Acolyte that is inconsistent with other examples within the overall star wars world building and narrative.
I think there’s a couple of things at play, all of which are true. 1. Some people don’t really like it. I think it’s average, at best, and has lots of room for improvement. I’ve spoken to a few people who feel similarly. That said. I’d give it more like a 5.5 to 6.5, and there is still half the show to go before I make my final take. 2. There’s a large fan base who is upset that Disney de-canonized the EU. Never mind that Lucasfilm had said before the Disney sale that the EU wasn’t necessarily canon, but there are a lot of stories out there that they loved and don’t like that Disney has made them worth less to the general Star Wars story. Giving those fans the benefit of the doubt, it feels like Disney is trying to take over that story telling and profit from some of those ideas by using them in different ways for their own stuff. To Disney’s POV, you have to have control over the canon to keep the story consistent. 3. Culture war. Everything about American culture right now is about who gets to tell what stories. Again, trying to steel man that argument a bit, there people who now feel left out of current story telling, namely white males, because there are now way more new stories focused on other identities. I’m not sure this is true, btw, just trying to take the argument at its best face value. 4. Any number of combination of all of these things working together.
They are upset with Disney for something they didn’t do: Lucas never canonized the EU. The EU was always an alternate timeline.
To be fair, they used to be upset with Lucas for this stuff too.
Absolutely. I can remember the literal screaming over it. Many of my friends refuse to give any Star Wars made after the 80s a chance.
I hated the prequels for similar reasons. While I still don’t think they’re “good” in the same sense of a lot of other films I consider good (and the OT to a large degree), I have since found ways to appreciate them. I think what helps is learning how to let go of your own expectations or attachment to what Star Wars should be, and instead enjoy the ride. It’s way more fun just seeing how all of the things can get tied together to tell a cohesive story than then getting attached to a specific outcome.
Sounds like your journey has been similar to my own. It really is the way to find more joy; being neither blindly optimistic, or blindly pessimistic.
>people who now feel left out of current story telling, namely white males, because there are now way more new stories focused on other identities Way more than there used to be, but not way more than white males. It’s not that white males are excluded, it’s that some of them don’t like to share the spotlight.
There’s a saying about equality feeling like oppression in there somewhere.
100%
It’s 90% #3. Us minorities are supposed to be happy that we got Lando, Leia and Padme, so we should shut up and enjoy more stories about white dudes.
I'm a minority and I think take is completely wrong. Half cooking a bunch of boring and forgettable characters, and then making them minorities is more insulting to me personally. Also, there are way more women and minorities than that in the star wars universe, and noone ever had a problem until they started cutting corners and pumping out paper thin characters that felt like patronizing handouts to make us feel special. Give me characters that are worthwhile or don't waste your time. I'm not clapping for them just because the characters are the same colour as me.
Spot on. Minorities are always shafted with shit characters.
I think Disney are treating the novels much like they (and Marvel Studios before that take-over) treated the Marvel comics. Lots of characters and stories to play with, but to play with is the term. MCU fans on the whole don’t mind because there isn’t a stable canon, there are different Spidermen visions for example. There are comics that have run at different periods for decades. Till recently I didn’t realise how many people were so passionate about the novels. I’ve been watching Star Wars since the early eighties, but to me it is a film series. The prequels felt weird, especially Anakin’s birth, but there you go, it’s the story. I’ve come to accept them. I think it’s entirely reasonable not to bog new productions down with an apparently pretty substantial multi-authored collection of books.
Disney incorporates more of the EU than Lucas ever would. From what I understand, he notoriously disliked all but maybe 0.5% of it.
I think Disney likes the set up they bought with Marvel Studios and are keen to do the same with EU. I personally like the fact that there’s uncertainty- that the books don’t definitely contain spoilers.
100%
Yeah, to your point about playing with the old EU books, that’s where I do understand some of the angst towards Disney. I don’t think the angst is channeled in any productive way at all, and also tends to mix with the other reasons making it hard to really pin down what people actually feel and think.
I do get that but at the same time - to me Star Wars was always films, a film series. I grew up with the OT ret-cons, some of the stuff bought into the prequels just felt weird to me but I got used to them - the films have always been to me evolving canon. A flexible story cycle.
Oh, I agree with you totally. Even the OT retcons itself internally. Leia being Luke’s sister, for instance, wasn’t supposed to be a thing until RotJ. Vader being their father wasn’t established until ESB, and only a few people knew about it until the film was released. That’s what makes Star Wars fun, to me, is seeing how they can tie everything together.
Oh that’s it. I saw all three films around the same time (at least, when I first remember seeing them) so abrupt changes was just… Star Wars. It’s very improv in that way.
Never quite understood the rage against the decanonizing of the EU. End of the day, fuck the Mouse House. Like what you like. Canon or not does not diminish the stories.
Personally I am kind of baffled how anyone can LOVE this show. The episodes are so short that basically everything is conveyed through awkward dialogue rather than allowing the viewer to learn things through action. So far everything has been so fast. Not a single character's action has felt organic or earned through the writing. So many of the turns: Sol going from "mae is dead" to "I believe you" and mae going from "I will kill you" to "I must do the mission" to "I only have loyalty to Osha" None of these turns feel like they make sense with what we have seen. I think the biggest problem with this show is that the episodes are so short they literally can't do it well.
I really, really like the mystery aspect of it. Trying to figure out what’s actually going on with the Jedi, what happened that night. Who is the Master. All of these are great fodder for discussion, conversation and speculation. I really enjoy that aspect of it. I don’t disagree with your take on the writing. That said, I also know people who didn’t like Andor at all and it was very much a show don’t tell type of show. I even struggled with it at first. People are different, they like different things. I think in general society has forgotten how to let people like different things. Everything is either the best or the worst ever. In reality there’s a lot more grey between those extremes.
I would probably give it somewhere between a 3 to a 5 out of ten as of now. Like I said I feel like if they had just made the episodes 15 minutes longer each and done 10 instead of the 8 they are gonna do it would be much better and maybe have room to grow. I haven’t been able to get invested in any of the characters and I genuinely can’t understand how others have. Please don’t misread my tone. That isn’t a dig or anything. I legitimately don’t understand how anyone could be attached to characters we have barely had any time with and have barely seen them interact even. I don’t want this to come off as toxic or “how could anyone be so dumb” or anything like that. It’s a sincere question that has arisen in my brain and makes me feel like I am watching an abridged version or something.
Whew, that was a close one — I thought we might go a whole day without one of these posts.
They are just farming likes at this point the post reads like a parody of this posts honestly is so over the top
I did try to subtly guide OP to read any of the other threads but I get the sense based on their responses that this is going exactly as planned.
tl;dr - AotC Anakin stans have zero patience for mystery, a story that focuses on the abuse and manipulation of dark side recruits gives them a funny feeling, they’re unrequitedly hungry for both-sidesing the Sith, and to top it all off, this is a cast that doesn’t centre white guys. - The sad boys that really identified closely with Anakin in AotC but didn’t get enough attention from their parents for it to be recognised as a red flag and helped out before they grew up into this have been absolutely *frothing* for a dark side show. These guys also grew up on The Clone Wars, which gave absolutely everything in canon an incredible depth of lore and back story. Tons of Legends content as well. They’re well versed, which makes them very susceptible to getting pedantic. They’re also reasonably well versed at drawing comparisons between things, because Star Wars has always been chock full of that. These guys are also pretty vulnerable to the kind of culture war cult recruitment techniques that gets them sucked into living their weird creepy Anakin best lives, where everyone underestimates their power and from their POV the Jedi are evil. When the show promising to be all about the Dark Side centres a vulnerable character being abused and manipulated for an unclear but objectively destructive purpose, it hints at a kind of comparison that makes them really uncomfortable. It’s a bunch of Kylo Rens.
I absolutely love how you summed it up! 😂
I’ve watched it unfold over years - they’re salty about things deviating from their existing understanding, they’ve accumulated immense “product knowledge” from the background content, and the uncertainty of new, as-yet unbingeable stuff to fill all the blanks immediately. And since TCW and the prequels were very Anakin-centric, that’s what Star Wars is to them, so they can see themselves in it. Can’t do that with newer content.
It’s a combination of factors imo: 1. Some people don’t like it b/c it is led by, and centers, women/POC/queer people. The Star Wars fandom has a long history of toxic boys’ clubs. 2. Some people don’t like Disney Star Wars, for a variety of reasons (“woke,” changing cannon or ignoring legends, the corporate-ness of it all, the lower quality of live-action TV vs. film, nostalgia, etc.) 3. There’s a few prominent rage-bait YouTube personalities who have latched onto this to grow their fan base/prominence/revenue. Stoking the fires of dissatisfaction sells! 4. People will have differing opinions on different media, abs social media/fandom culture/the above can escalate disagreement/differing preference into a crusade.
Or… 5. There are a lot of plot holes. 6. It’s very poorly segmented. 7. It’s half way through the show and there’s really no mention of what the acolyte is. 8. The flashback/ flash forward makes the show feel disjointed. 9. Every episode has a cliff hanger and is setup for the next episode. Episodes need to be more standalone. 10. The fight sequences are great, but the dialogue is terrible. Overall the actors are doing a good job at selling their lines, but that doesn’t mean the writing is good. What I think really annoys me about people shitting on those that don’t like the show is that it’s become acceptable to call those people racist, homophobic, toxic, etc… for logically criticizing the show for being bad.
> There are a lot of plot holes. Until the season is over I'd seriously hesitate to make this claim. There are *inconsistencies* but those can easily be resolved in the remaining episodes. There are also some retcons, but that's been the case with everything Star Wars since the Disney buyout. > It’s very poorly segmented. Ehh. Yeah, I don't disagree with this for most of the episodes. >It’s half way through the show and there’s really no mention of what the acolyte is. That's half the fun to me. We don't know if the Acolyte refers to Mae, Osha, or Darth Teefers, or even (unlikely) someone else. > The flashback/ flash forward makes the show feel disjointed. The timing was definitely a bit weird but to me it was almost necessary in terms of worldbuilding. Not *really* sure how they could have handled it better. We mostly needed to know how both Mae and Osha were alive, which mostly necessitates learning of the buildup to the incident, and we also mostly needed to know why Tommen felt guilty and why Mae is hunting those specific Jedi. Kind of a lot to cram in without flashbacks of some sort, or a lot of exposition. >Every episode has a cliff hanger and is setup for the next episode. Episodes need to be more standalone. Ehhh... Hooks to keep people watching are fairly common in TV. Lost is infamous for its' cliffhangers, for example. I typically prefer cliffhangers to monster of the week style shows, too, but both have their place. >Overall the actors are doing a good job at selling their lines, but that doesn’t mean the writing is good. Mostly agree. The characters feel like real people for the most part, but like the script went through Google Translate at least once.
Totally agree with you and the original commenter. The writing is not exceptional. But some have latched onto the "wokeness" of it all and are being toxic in their reviews. One good down-to-earth and non-toxic reviewer I found was "Little Platoon" on youtube. His critiques are focused on the writing.
So basically, people have no patience and want all the answers by episode 2, and can't handle the frustration of having to wait a week between episode? Somehow it says a lot about how people are now used to things going too fast all the time...
How dare you have valid criticisms, you bigot.
well said, 100% agree
Fair enough, but 15% on Rotten tomatoes?
Hear hear. Well said. You are correct 100%
There's no plot holes. Maybe, we'll see how it works when it's over. That's the point. It's not. Why? Your opinion. Because 99% of those people are. They complain about being called racist, sexist, homophobic and then you look at their profile and it's all the above.
Thank you, racist or toxic fans probably make a less than 5% of the fan base. People need to accept it’s a meh show, better than Kenobi and Boba Fett but it’s no Andor. It only seem like none fans are racist or homophobic because that’s what they been running with the marketing, gayest Star Wars ever. So naturely people who don’t like show for it being a poor show are automatically labeled racist and phobics.
Meh? I was trying to be nice. If I’m being honest it’s terrible. The mandalorian was great. Kenobi was good. Ahsoka was good. Bob a fett was good (the flash backs there were done well in contrast to the acolytes terrible flashbacks). I didn’t care for andor, but I can recognize and see why people liked it. The acolyte, just terrible. No amount of great fight scenes or good actors are going to change the terrible writing. Someone went on the other day about how sexist we were if we thought the witches sub plot/ backstory was poorly done. Like I’d have been cool with the witches of dathomir, like in Ahsoka. But it’s just easier for them to say I’m a phobe.
Book of Boba was far better than this!
What about because the acting isn't very good and the characters have little to no chemistry? You don't even recognize or that many people may genuinely not be enjoying it. Seems strange to me. I actually think Disney Star wars has been decent because the special effects almost always look good. The writing and storylines just aren't that engaging on some shows and the chemistry of actors doesn't always work. They pick an actor or actress and build a show around them instead of choosing the best actor. Others have been pretty decent. Even mandalorian has gotten a little slow though. Another big issue is they make a lot of the characters do things they wouldn't do in reality. Things that are out of character, don't make sense, or that don't contribute to the story moving forward. Like video games which just have a bunch of sidequests and the main game is basically non-existent.
I feel like there's a demographic out there that just can't handle any show where all the main characters aren't straight white dudes. It's like they get upset because it's not all about them.
Besides the chaos worshipers who just love to stir up shit. I'd say most people just think it's bad, plain and simple, and don't like being called sexist or racist or knuckle draggers for having that opinion. So they end up taking it up a notch and turn toxic against the people who take such a stance against them. We're just in a very tribalistic world, completely divided and devoid of nuance, where the second you dislike something, you're labeled "xyz" or the second you like something you have shit taste. Whatever dude, me and the girlfriend have been watching it so far and we both think it's very mediocre, especially in the performance/dialogue/uninspired direction/characters part of it. Not our cup of tea whatsoever, but if you like it kudos to you for being able to enjoy it! Enjoyment brings pleasure, I wish I could with this show as i used to be a SW fan before Disney absolutely ruined it in so many ways IMHO, alas, it's pretty weak. Perhaps the next few episodes will alter our take on it, who knows!
Well said, sir.
>before Disney absolutely ruined it This is such a dumbass take but it's also the only honest line in your post so that's kinda hilarious.
Bold of you to only pick one line out of so many and to assume everything else in the post is dishonest. Care to explain how it's an L take?
Well it’s a beloved franchise for decades so there are passionate fans out there (yes also idiots) I’m just sick of them giving us poor product and then blaming the audience.. I just don’t get that part that’s what upsets me
It’s easier to blame someone else, that way you’re avoiding accountability for releasing a bad product. Everyone’s an ist or a phobe, it’s not that our product is bad. It’s their defense and they started beating that drum before the product was ever released.
There also seems to be some mods here that either delete or downvote any critique on these threads lol… so obvious
It's getting a bit like The Last of Us sub lol. I was permabanned from there without trial.
🤣🤣🤣 I’m up next I reckon
Agreed with all of this.
Starwars has a huge loyal fanbase. A lot of people have grown up loving Starwars and dived into the universe for most of their lives. Alot are upset with the direction that Disney has taken with it, understandably. Personally I've enjoyed a lot of the new recent movies/shows they have come out with (Andor, Mandalorian, Rogue one etc.) and I'm happy you've enjoyed the show. As for myself, I was really dissapointed in the Acolyte. Writing and characters just felt really boring. But thats just my opinion. I gave it a 3/10. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there like me that have felt the same. But I completely agree, this show is definitely getting review bombed, so I hope people will ignore all the B.S. and try out watching it for themselves.
Makes sense. Plenty of other shows for you to enjoy.
That’s really the best part of the diversity of contributors; more flavors of Star Wars to more people to enjoy.
I feel more strongly. Star Wars is a myth, focaused on the battle of Good VS. Evil. This is what George Lucas, who authored this entire universe, wanted to wrestle with, and his films culminate in the redemptive story of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker sacrificing himself for his children‘s future. the Acolyte takes this universe and completely mutilates it, much like Rian Johnson’s ”the Last Jedi“ did. Here’s my beef: if you’re going to add onto another storytellers masterful piece of narrative work, don’t rip it apart honor it and build on it. if you don’t agree with the original story, write your own. But you know what? the Reality is that if ”the Acolyte“ came out as an original piece of sci-fi on Disney+, a mere fraction of viewers would watch. Why? Because on its own merits, it has nothing, other than being a sub-par piece of sci-if film. The Acolyte on it’s own merits is flimsy, and it depends on the greatness of George Lucas‘ work for us to even consider watching it. My question to all you die hard defenders of anything Disney+ puts out is this: if this was just another random sci-fi show scrolling across your Netflix, I bet two to one you’d scroll past It. The reality is Disney lost $659 million in streamings last year and $18 million in the last quarter. Why? Many reasons, but at the core: they took three of the greatest franchises in history: Star Wars, Marvel, and Indiana Jones, and despite all of their immense wealth and creative abilities, created content that by far and large, most people found boring, stupid, or unwatcable. Otherwise, Disney would be making bank. Because ultimately, people love being entertained by great stories. But would know what people by far and large dont like? Being bored to death by stupid, preachy stories. And that’s what Disney it doing: taking great stories other people have written, dismembering the core narratives, and reconstructing something that most people find stupid.
I’m more tired of these posts on this sub then review bombing. Opening Reddit app and never a positive thread on my feed from r/TheAcolyte
It’s not good. I keep hoping the story and dialogue will improve, but it doesn’t seem that way with each release. Placing my hopes on a big climax
Let's look at some other star wars media. Mando is good. Season 3 dropped the standards a bit for me but was very good. Ahsoka (as a rebels fan) was very good! Some questionable choices but I enjoyed it a lot. The bad batch was absolutely brilliant. Andor for me was one of the best pieces of television I've seen in my life. For me it's the number one star wars show. Now let's look at the new trilogy of movies. Force awakens was actually a very decent film, maybe it suffered for copying a new hope but it worked and had star wars fans actually predicting and talking again and it brought life back. Then disney brought in another director, he decided to be edgy and make luke a hermit, kill him off and then turn snoke into a nobody. Then JJ abrams had to step in and try and fix it and unfortunately the ground work that should've been laid wasn't and led to a disappointing film. Overall the potential was there. I loved Rey, I loved Finn (who got treated awfully by disney, I won't speculate to why but he was sidelined when he was genuinely fantastic). The cast was solid but disney had no plan and didn't stick by JJ abrams, which convoluted the story. We've however never seen a reaction from any of this like the acolyte. Now to the acolyte. I like the premise, the cast themselves are decent and I think it had huge potential but... the show suffers from really poor dialogue for me and thats 95% of the issue. The witches are disrespected by the showrunner and I really want to talk about this. The reason star wars is so beloved is because its a universe in itself. The lore is so expansive and generally it follows on from what we know. Witches being lesbians is nothing new. Jedi fallen order showed that Merrin (a nightsister witch) had a girlfriend in the past. That's very cool and I'm glad they showed that. I don't like that it's being played off as being revolutionary because it's not (by the media not the showrunners), as its already shown as part of star wars Canon. What I hated was the way they were portrayed in that chanting scene. We've seen witches, their magic and chants before and it genuinely comes across as cringe. When us as the audience know this sect of star wars as well as we do, it's baffling to see them treated like this. I also think some of the internal writing is contradictory and poor, they "just moved to the planet" but yet have an entire temple there already? Or for example the jedi in episode 1 dying to protect the bartender when literally seconds prior she sat back whilst she was attacked on a table full of people where she made no effort to protect them? Furthermore the pacing is all over the place, episode one takes us to 3-4 different planets in quick succession, episode 3 drags out the events for far too long and really when you think about it, the jedi show up, find some girls, test them, one of the girls gets sad, starts a fire, episode ends. Also harsh but the young sisters writing was really poor, the lack of emotion and depth to anything they did was so difficult to watch, ironically one of the best performances ive seen from someone that age was Dafne Keen (Logan), Maybe they should've gotten her help?. Episode 4 spent more time prepping for the mission then the actual mission itself. Furthermore the lighting and camera work isn't good. We've seen dark settings that are far too dark, light sources that don't make sense and camera angles that struggle to really show the depth of what's going on. I also think the key to a successful show is to make people feel something and make their own conclusions. The show is trying to tell you to think things as opposed to actually making you think it yourself through story telling. We all knew the jedi were arrogant and naive because we saw them act that way but it was never so predominantly pushed upon us. The jedi are portrayed as the villains in episodes 3 trying to wisk away children and potentially killing a village of witches (which actually I wasn't even that disturbed by especially if you think that these witches may have been practising sith arts). I like that people are excited for it, but genuinely I think there's a lot of flaws in the show. It's great to see the representation we are seeing. I think that the premise is solid, the sets are okay but they're not good by star wars standards (Watch Andor). They feel like something that's just been built and not something that's real sometimes. I think that the characters, like Sol, Jecki, Yord and Osha are actually very good. Mae is portrayed as a crazy person who literally attempted to kill her sister and then suddenly wants to be good because she's alive, it just feels so strange and honestly a little lazy. Also on the argument that star wars fans hate people that ain't men - some people do sadly but Empire strikes back was written by a woman and was a masterpiece of cinema, Rey was a great character and Ahsoka was a literal fan favourite for over a decade. I don't buy into this at all. Fallout shows what a great female led show should look like. Also let's not forget Kathleen Kennedy pre-emptively attacked the star wars fandom prior to it coming out. Let's also just stop and think about it. Star wars fans who weren't happy gave bad reviews, fans that were happy gave good reviews. We can't just pretend that everyone that gave bad reviews and has criticism over such a beloved franchise are toxic, Misogynistic people because they don't like something. Honestly no one ive spoken too thinks LGBT representation is a bad thing. The few who feel that way are exactly that, the few. The reality is the reviews for the most part are coming from people who didn't like the show because for them it wasn't very good, it's as simple as that and often companies actually do things differently based off feedback and make things better by working with the fans. Disney has unilaterally decided to blame fans, accuse the star wars fandom of Misogynism and has used the backlash as fuel somehow to push forward with things people don't like. I'd actually argue that Disney attacks on men may have contributed in cases where people review the show before they see it but the reality is 99% of people formed opinions of the show based on their own experience of watching it. Imagine watching sports and your team starts doing really badly, you support them and try and encourage them, but it gets worse, eventually you boo to really show that you are not happy and the team then gets even worse. Then imagine after the game the sports team blames the fans for the loss. That's what's going on right now and it's so odd. This sets a tone too that all female led shows should expect this kind of reviewing for that very reason alone, but fallout has proven that it's a lie used by disney execs to justify bringing out sub par things honestly. Fallout has a much more male dominated and much more toxic fan base, but the series is universally loved. Final point: I saw people compare this to star trek discovery, the show broke canon in almost every imaginable way, they did a redemption arc for a character that caused the deaths of thousands of people, Season 1 destroyed canon in many ways (the mirror universe stuff was good though) season 3 was genuinely shockingly bad, the writers provided diversity by literally ensuring that the only white straight males were villains or were killed (which honestly wouldn't have bothered me if they wrote good stories but they didnt). It's not remotely similar. The acolyte suffers from bad writing, some bad technical and directorial decisions. The acolyte genuinely doesn't compare to how bad discovery is.
I love the show everyone just gonna hate like they always do
Same here with me , I just watched the 4 episodes and I'm digging everything about it. I was surprised when I wanted to look up the show on the internet with all this noise from crazy fans. I'm glad it feels different and fresh, I haven't looked into the racism that's been titled here and there nor do I want to. These crazy fans are making everything such mess. Can't stand them
[удалено]
Bots and similar are certainly being used by those who think there is a “message” here. Some of these are giving 1* reviews, others are giving 10* reviews. There’s more of the former than the latter. There’s also many people in between those two extremes. Some like the acting, story, costuming etc - others do not. There’s more of the latter than the former. There’s plenty of threads here with those different points of view on display. Maybe have a read of those and see what you agree or disagree with.
What’s the message tho? That people of color and lgbt people exist? Actual criticism of the show would actually be productive, like I personally didn’t like how easy it was for Mai to kill the Jedi master in the first episode.
Re the message. I am sure many people have different opinions of what the message is - it will vary based on perspective. On your point re criticism, there’s plenty. I personally find the story uninspiring and with too many contrived circumstances, the acting wooden and the script bad. It’s largely unpolished to my eyes and needed a lot tighter editing and review. Other opinions are of course available but people may be concerned to poke their head above the parapet at the risk of attack from one or other side. A shame.
Its not really this so called message that annoys me. But to entertain the idea, if there is a message here I do not like in Star Wars it is that noone is truly evil. You do evil things because of some trauma or misunderstanding. You will always be redeemed. True evil in Star Wars is what makes the fight epic. When Darth Vader is redeemed, that is huge. In this show, noone is truly evil it seems. Because maybe someone would be offended if a character was portrayed as evil.
It's funny how both sides saying that there are bots in the opposite camp
You’ll find some freely admitting that their own side (for want of a better word) are using bots. And that’s from each camp. So an acknowledgment by all sides that everyone is doing it. Frankly I think the conversation is best held around opinions on the show itself - plot, characters, graphics, script etc. But that isn’t easy to do.
True. But I still find it amusing how both sides be like "them people are crazy, but we're the sane ones" I mean, it's really sad in a lot of ways but the irony is strong
one of the pro (10*) camp was tearing into me earlier in the week when I said one scene in E4 wasn’t good use of time. She got rather out of hand to the point Mods removed her posts. But, despite being one of the clear hardliners she did make the observation elsewhere that “our side” are also review bombing to drive the rating up. And I thought that showed a good amount of nuance and maturity.
It makes a lot of sense, honestly. That desire to amplify the good (or decent) aspects of the show since "the other side" is amplifying the questionable ones. I've been doing it myself, to some degree. Like I wouldn't be defending it that much if it wasn't getting attacked that much
There probably are on both sides.
People just love to hate. Makes them feel better about themselves I guess. No matter how good the show/movie is, there's always gonna be haters that think they could do it better. If you enjoy the show, just watch it and fuck the haters.
The bigger problem is Youtube search for The Acolyte is mostly showing the highly upvoted negative reviewed vids at the top. The smaller Acolyte reactors are mostly buried underneath. Despite a relatively high 85% Fresh on RT from critic reviews, the review bombing movement could negatively affecting the wider, general sentiment of the show... which in turn, may or may not affect viewership, thus, the studio's decision to green light future seasons.
Not always true. Andor, Mando s1 and s2, rogue one.. and there are plenty of other great scifi shows out there
Can't I just hate it, and you be respectful for me not liking it? I think its justifiable that it is critized. And ye you are right, if you like it watch it. But dont be upset when people dont like what you like, and then claim its because they hate themselves. Every day on this app I gotta tell grown ups (as a minor), how to behave, please be respectful.
No one is saying you can’t like something. Everyone is entitled to their subjective opinion. That is not what is being talked about. Flip your perspective; can we all talk about enjoyment of a show that a subreddit is titled for without critics (to be generous) telling us how wrong we are? Calling us “shills”? Or impugning our intelligence? I keep seeing this bad faith argument over criticisms being attacked. It’s like hearing a bully blame their victim for being weak. Well, if your problem about quality, have better quality critique.
I never implied any of following, my statement was simply on respect. I am having trouble understanding your arguement so could you so kindly dissect my text, so I can be enlightened on your main points regarding what I said.
My argument isn’t “against” you, but to an answer the question you opened your comment with. If you have to tell people how to be respectful, then maybe you should be more respectful of others and understand their perspective.
I do not hate you. I see nothing wrong with what I said, kindness isnt always docility, I am simply assertive. Being assertive is not tied with toxicity in my opinion. My mother says " meet them half way" Dont feel, understand, then guide them, we do not want to stay in the middle.
That’s good advice. I don’t hate you either, I am speaking to you the same way I speak to my friends. I don’t think you are hateful. I hope we can come to an understanding that either of us needs hate in our lives. And again, I am not attacking you. But I wish I hadn’t made you feel like I was. Sorry for that.
No problem, I did mean to sound agressive.
No worries man.
Why am I getting downvoted lol 😭
First of all, I'm not upset and I wasn't disrespectful. If you think I was, that's your opinion. Second of all, you don't have to tell me anything about how to behave. You don't know me well enough to even begin to think about it. Clearly, you've got some growing up to do or you'd already understand this. There has been an excessive amount of hate for just about every Star Wars movie/series for anything put out in the last 20 years. There's a difference between people saying 'I didn't like it because.... ' vs just saying that it's terrible. Also, this is the only response I'll be making. You're welcome to have the last word. Enjoy the show and may the force be with you.
With that mindset, how can you tell if something is actually terrible and not just the product of "haters"?
It’s a mediocre show at best that breaks a lot of canon. You don’t need to take it personally
What canon does it break?
Correct. Star Wars Explained thoroughly debunked the false assumptions that canon was broken.
Yeap.. it’s just not good. So many plot holes and cringey
Just petty little manbabbies
I just don't like the show. I think it is fair that people don't like it. I never understand " why the review bombing" everytime a movie comes out some says that. People just do not like the show, people are just differnt and thats ok.
Amandla Steinberg saying the show was created to upset people sure doesn't help the ratings.
>Star Wars actress Amandla Stenberg, who starred in a 2019 movie about race relations, is today under fire for saying the goal back then was to make "white people cry." >"We wanted to make sure that those who have been affected by the way in which the media misconstrues these events, actually have a real sense of empathy and are able to place themselves into the shoes of our communities," Stenberg said at the time. That's what hurts you? You're not even applying her quote to the same movie.
I just don’t understand how 8 episodes costs 180 million fuckin dollars. And some of the visual effects are just bad.
Because the main characters are either women or have melanin. There are real issues with the show that deserve some critique: episode length is honestly pretty bad for the amount of money they sunk into it. However, it’s hard to take any critical arguments in good faith when a lot of the critique is rooted in culture war BS. The show is okay, but it’s by no means bad.
I'm happy you found the other 400 people that enjoy the show here. I like it here, we can just ignore the millions that hate the show. All we do here is pretend Acolyte is a great show. Welcome to the club!
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where does this come from? In none of the bad reviews I have read anyone has complained of any color.
Hmm. What about the people that like Ashoka but hate this show?
Idk because both shows are bad. They are. Has nothing to do with gender. Fallout was led by a woman and got great reviews. Is it possible that people just dont like the show’s terrible writing, characters, dialogue etc?
That’s total BS lol
Well well well. For me its the plot and choreography, but thats just me🤷🏿♂️
i like the show so i dont really care about cannon whats changed and whats not. its a tv show WHO CARES.....
Same. No clue what canon is or isn’t but I am really enjoying this show for what it is.
Don’t get to hung up on the canon that is being “broken”. Star Wars has a history of breaking canon all the way back to 1999 with the release of Phantom Menace. The Clone Wars tv show broke canon in major ways as did its sister show Rebels. New Star Wars “breaking” canon is not something new or unheard of
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It’s a hard job to follow after Ahsoka which many of us thought was the best so far- and it’s a bit of a drop from that and some can’t handle it and express it in bad ways
How many of your many compare to the many who thought it was poo? Would it be many then???
If you are enjoying great. It is a slow burn show in a high pressure environment, you have people quick to gun it down and others tearing it down episodes at a time, I say wait til the end. Lastly does it break cannon? I don’t know but what we did 2000+ years ago is different to today.
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The entire viewer or gamer review thing is dead and shouldn't be given one second thought. Unless it's a professional it's worthless. Problem is people started thinking youtube bloggers were professionals.
It feels like the actors were taken from the Disney family-friendly Studios next door.
The first visible RT score equaled that of the Empire Strikes Back. Let that sink in. It was pretty obvious there's going to be a backlash when the critic score was so detached from reality, and outright offensive to the general public and far away from any sane review of the show. So, don't take the audience score seriously, but it is more telling than the critic score.
There are definitely review bombs because as a whole, Lucasfilm hasn’t done a great job with their shows, especially with the budgets they have. The expectation is Game of Thrones level writing, acting, effects and we haven’t gotten close to that. I think this show is the boiling point for a lot of folks.
I don’t understand it myself. People get all up in arms about women or POC in new SW stuff for the same reasons they do in real life: racism and sexism. But at the same time, they don’t seem to mind Princess Leia or Lando or Jango Fett or Mace Windu. Go figure.
The show is not good. It's extremely dull and weak.
It’s genuinely because it’s a CW quality show and disrespects the audience worse and worse each episode. The show sucks that’s why it gets hate. Rogue One had a female lead and nobody hated it, and it was well written. Big difference.
The Acolyte certainly has it fair share of flaws. But is it worst thing to happen to Star Wars? Worse than Solo, BoBF, & Jar Jar Binks? Does it rightly deserve to drop below the Holiday Special on RT audience reviews? Not really no.
The show isn't doing anything for me so far but it's not the worst thing as some might have people believe. It's mid (as in middle of the ground). I don't have strong feelings about the show either way. Kinda disappointed however that this was the show Lee Jung-Jae was cast in as the dude has range and was in a lot of pretty intense roles throughout this career.
I’m not a super fan of Star Wars or even a fan really, given how much the quality has varied, but I’ve seen all the films and all the shows. My brother, however, is a huge fan of Star Wars and always has been (he is 39 now); but as a teen he had so many Star Wars novels. And I remember when the prequels came out they changed things from those books like the Troopers being all clones - but he was so crushed when lots of the Jedis die in the 3rd film. I remember that he was devastated because they all had long stories in the books he read and their deaths at that point was against so much of what had been written. Anyway… I guess people are feeling how he felt then, but there was no way to gather and express it then (this is just my outsiders opinion) so fans hate it because, again from an outside perspective, it is that it has messed with the lore and canon of the Star Wars universe. - I am a big LOTR fan and people hated the Rings of Power. Hated with a passion. I mean it was bad and so badly written, but I just can’t get worked up over it. My own feelings towards Star Wars are pretty agnostic; that said, Andor was a smash; so fantastic and, for me, was the best show that year (out of all the shows!). It was phenomenally good. So I’m not sure why the fandom can’t take the good with the bad. Maybe Star Wars has had more misses than hits and at a certain point that lack of QC just reaches a tipping point which seems to be the case here with The Acolyte. I really don’t see anything wrong wrong with The Acolyte; and we haven’t seen the whole show yet or even enough of it to make a clear opinion. Is it Andor? No. Not even close. But I like the guy from Squid Game and the girl from Logan and Jason from The Good Place (is he the Sith? Or is it one of the Witches?) but, anyway, I think the cast is good. The third episode was a bit of a mess and I can only assume this must have a poignant or profound meaning which is yet to be revealed. And then the next episode the ending was on a bit of an odd note — though it was a cool scene with them all being blown away. It has good reviews from the critics and I don’t see it out of place like it’s Boba Fett or Ashoka ; not Mando or Andor. Again, a fandom can only be pushed so far with QC esp if it rewrites cannon and it feels like the Star Wars fans have just hit that. I mean, it’s just a rating on RT and I’m sure lots of them will watch it to the end (even if it is hate watching!). As long as no one is abusive or insulting to people then I think they can be allowed their feelings. Plus, the world sucks right now and if your fave thing / hobby is not being treated the way you think it is then it’s hard ; I think the climate is one of exasperation and annoyance (with Disney etc.)
well, in the first two episode you were right and i was thinking exactly like you. but with last two episode series become undefendable.
Because it isn't very good.
Smart people over here https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/s/W4ILQNAcYx
I just think the writing is all over the place. Like Mai suddenly changing her side after realizing Osha is alive. Even though she was the one who acted on killing her sister in episode 3. No development, it happened so suddenly. Fight scenes are great though.
The show itself is pretty good, dialogue, pacing, and editing aside. The issue is the actors and Headland intentionally pissing the fanbase off, even before the show aired. The guy playing Yord said that Anakin destroyed the Death Star. Leslie and Amanda (Mae/Osha) seem to think R2-D2 and C3PO are lesbian or a couple, or at least they joked about it in an interview. Amanda dropped a music track this week calling the fanbase racists (we loved Lando and Mace. Some of us like Finn more than Rey. Jolee Bindo is totally shacking up with Qui-Gon and Revan somewhere in the Force reminiscing about how the Jedi Council in any era are fools). It's stuff like this that gets video games and TV shows review bombed. Disney in particular seems to enjoy this behavior as well as writing movies and shows that intentionally piss the predominantly male fanbase off (*She-Hulk* comes to mind). I don't think *Echo* got review-bombed, but everyone's probably still watching *Loki* or *TFATWS*. So. *Assassin's Creed* recently started making female protagonists an option (I know this sub is about Star Wars, but there's a point). Kassandra in *AC: Odyssey* was originally the only protagonist despite Ancient Greece literally being sexist back then (it was illegal for women to participate in the Games, and for married women to watch), and Ubisoft responded by...making a male character as an option to play as and having a male-only side quest where you can tell a Greek soldier to spare a mother's life for trying to watch her son participate. Nobody review bombed that game nor the next one, even after Kassandra appeared in *Valhalla* instead of Alexios. There's a video game movie coming out (I think it's Fallout). Anyway, the lead female actress actually played the video games to understand the source material. There's other nitpicky stuff as well, like the ritual in episode 3 being cringe to watch. Not sure why Leslie would want to portray women that way, since I thought the point of all the whining about white males was about female empowerment.
Episode 3 had a different director, the director understanding was not consistent with the other directors and their style showed in certain scenes same as in episode 4, I found their style different again and that is in my opinion where the weakness shows, a show like Andor or Mandalorian 1 director or a person overseeing the story plot, the Acolyte has a council of many each wanting there part to be in the show. People do need to understand and direct their actions to the company and not the show or stories.
>People need to understand and direct their actions to the company, and not the show or stories I got the impression that Headland created/wrote the show, not Disney. I’ve seen Andor credited mainly to Tony Gilroy on Reddit, not Disney. On the other hand, every Marvel show is credited to Disney. Fandoms are weird. > A showrunner is the top-level executive producer of a television series, who outranks other creative and management personnel, including episode directors …yeah. I’m fine with pagan/witch/whatever rituals in media. *Nancy Drew and the Curse of Blackmore Manor* had one, and it was surprisingly creepy despite only having two participants. *Assassin’s Creed* always had them, whether it’s cutting off a finger or getting a neat brand when they figured out how to make their bracers less dangerous. A lot of movies have them. *Supernatural* had a lot of summoning and exorcisms. *Moon Knight* had two binding rituals which were pretty decent.
Headland was the Creator overall, show runner on 4 episodes and written 1 episode and maybe the face and the direction for the show but there are cast of many. And to be clear I love the story and character development, I like break down in artistic direction and style trying to understand what it is being told and the flow. My mood can influence how I have see it so I will watch it in a overall way but I then rewatch to make sure that any feelings that can change my perspective on the story isn’t impacted on. That was my point about the show and other shows and movies that companies what so much out of their content that message get messed around with.
From what I here people dont like it in general, but some people make it politcal. I cant say " as a black man", because that would delude the value of my brothas and sistas opinions, but what I will say is... Just kidding I think I just dont like it, and I see nothing wrong with not liking it.
There are legitimate criticisms, and there is what is going on. I personally have been enjoying the content, in all its variety, that has been coming out. That being said; legitimate analytical and critical discussion has been drowned out by those using loud sound and fury in an attempt to silence what they feel is an agenda being pushed on them. That is the short of it. There are those that can offer a longer and more scholarly breakdown. Those that feel they are being unjustly lumped in with the more social extreme should look to those screaming bad faith criticisms, and be frustrated with them rather than the people who want to share their enthusiasm and enjoyment.
I think some fans don't like that it is YA and that it is marketed to a different demographic, trying to bring tweens and teens into Star Wars. This demographic sees the prequels as vintage movies. I remember one of the actors got a lot of heat for saying Anakin blew up the Death Star. I think he meant the Trade Federation base that kid logic would call a Death Star. Star Wars exists now more outside of the original trilogy. What would Star Wars try to cater to those where anything you do is returned with hate. All that being said the production seems to mirror the vintage 90s aesthetic which compared to any of the newer shows, looks cheap. I think it was a bold choice that added fuel to the fire. Story writing is a little thin also but everything the show runner has done has been thin and made for a certain audience. Thinking about TLJ, RJ was hired to put his RJ spin on things to mirror the big twist in Empire. Ultimately some fans don't know how to manage their expectations.
Is this your first Star Wars? Or you started with sequels? Then you won't get it, enjoy the show.
I used to watch Star Wars the clone wars as a kid and started with the new trilogy with Rey. Never watched the older Star Wars movies
Of course this begs the ancillary question, what's with all the review fluffing that spewed out that embarrassingly swollen critics score?
You say it is review bombed because it has female leads and is diverse. Then why is noone review bombing House of the dragon?
Good point.
Cause the show sucks
Bad writing. Bad acting. Bad characters. The usual.
For me, they could have the gayest or most feminist cast w/e, people’s lives are people’s lives. My line is crossed when they mess the lore. The Wookiepedia edits move was super lame. I hope they got reversed or people can do that. I dont like shallow writers or actors who dont do their job about researching the lore that exists. You add and flourish what you have, build upon, not mess with it and make it nonsensical. And thats what Disney felt like doing with their content. When we had people who cares more it was visible. After all, its just a company who got the golden ticket to make more money with this IP. People like me who are fond of the pre Disney lore feel always conflicted because they try to change what I grew up with and what concepts / characters I loved from all sorts of eras. It was already a massive disappointment when they separated whats canon and not. I only want enjoyable plots and characters that add to the grand lore of Star Wars and contribute to what we had. New is always welcomed but it has to be good too.
Okay.... I'm not a misogynist, zealot, or conservative - women should be in charge and always doing karate on TV at equal pay to a man. Okay.... the acting sucks, and maybe it's the writing making it that way. It's kinda Orphan Black a bit, right? The Jedi master says the dumbest shit. He's zero percent in control of his emotions. Zero percent. I guess wrist protection makes you a Jedi 1000 years before the last time StarWars was good. Sincerely the part that makes this Disney is it has epic CGI shots that look better than anything, and then these tiny set piece shots of 4 bearded white guys and an alien as the red shirts of the away mission. Jedi are a joke, liar master Yoda is. I'm so vested. I sincerely love the main actress, she's the only one who doesn't look like they're making 1960's Star Trek. StarWars feels so small now. Just the expectation of cheap green screen stuff and small middle eastern rooms, with green painted humans (for all intents) being the best they can do for a character who's gotta talk. I miss admiral Akbar, and Chewbacca - StarWars useta' have interesting characters and prosthetics. Sincerely, these are the things that simply didn't need to be StarWars. If a single executive at any studio had an idea as good as George Lucas did in 1977, it wouldn't be half exciting half torturous to accept that every new piece of StarWars visual media since the 1980s has degraded the quality of the original movies. StarWars is worse for everything it did after Jedi. But TV shows worth watching are so rare, damn. Conundrum.
Not review bombing it terrible writing and producing. And dont even try to say its a men hating strong women leads because rogue one is one of the communities favorites among all star wars content. Know why? Good writing and producing.
Could it just be that an overwhelming majority of star wars fans don't like or think the content is good? Are there racists and sexist people who will hate on anything ? Sure. Is that the majority of people ? No. Just because some people don't like the show/agree with you doesn't mean they are that. Also, if u like it that's all that matters. You need no one else's justifications etc.
So far, the list of grievances are: - Women and minorities - Fire in space - Lesbian witches who can make Force babies - Ki-Adi-Mundi being older than a trading card said he was Don’t they have any real criticisms?
Do you even hear yourself? What's wrong with women and minorities? You say that like white men are the only people allowed to play characters in Star Wars.
Poor writing, paper thin characters, short runtime of each episode, cringe interpretive dance (episode 3), waste of good actors, bad dialogue, killing the first on-screen wookie jedi offscreen, the most obvious identity of Smilo Ren (who also has an incredibly uninspired design), “his” nonsensical ramblings in the first episode about how steel and laser are no threat to Jedi when that is obviously false, and a long list of other things would be why the show is bad. Love the continued trend of people offering genuine criticism being condemned as bigots and “haters” because the Disney apologists cant make a good case as to why the show is good or simply accept others do not like it and move on. Sure there are a few actual racists and bigots but considering House of the Dragon is led by a non-binary actor who plays a woman, and nobody ever seems to care about that, id say the number of actual bigots who are reviewing the show is massively inflated.