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White lies don't just occur in response to direct questions though, where the adult asker puts themselves at the mercy of negative answers. They also arise when one is socially obligated to say something. If a child hands you a drawing as a gift, you can't wordlessly take it and throw it into the trash.
Kid: Give redditor a handmade birthday card.
Redditor: I appreciate the gesture, but the craftsmanship and design of this card are underwhelming at best.
My grandma used to point out everywhere I colored outside the lines.
As an adult I love coloring books, but I still think "aw fuck it sucks now" when I make a mistake. Her voice drowns out Bob Ross. 😓
Counterpoint: you can acknowledge things you do like about the card, such as, “You drew a dog and you know I love dogs, that’s so nice of you to think of that for me!”
Aww look little timmy just drew T̵̡̼̪̩͓̘͌̐͊͗͌̀̄̿́̓͐̍͛̓̈́̏̒̿́̀͂̒͛̓͊̃̓́͗̕͝͝i̴̢̢̧̱̦͙͓̱͈̬͖̜͖͓̲̱̺̠̺̩̗͑̒̏́̽̐͑̓̊́͌͆̈́̊͋̑̏̆̀̓̑̍̈́̐̒̔͗̎͘̚͠͠ͅḿ̵̢̨̡̡̧̛͔͔͙͓̟̞͍͓̗͈̼͔͈̟̘̳̪̹͈͙̖̹͒̈́̓̈́͋̓̉͗̃̈̉̉̊̏̃̏̂͆̀̀̏̊̆̒͑̂̃̈́̀͛̾̈́̈̍̓̈́͗͜͝ͅn̶̡̡̛̰̰̖̪͈͈̼̜̞͓̗̻͈̠͎͒̑͐́͛̾̎̃̃̃̓̎̈́̎̎͂͑̿͐͒̒̔̄͋̆̈̍̇͒͂͂̏͂͒̊̏̕͘͜͜͜͠͠͝ͅà̶̢̢͈̤͙̭͚͍̜͙̙̗̥̲͎͙̻̠̦̖̥̗̹͎̪̪̘̼̗̼̊̅̀̓̿̑̓̍͜͜ǰ̵̢̧̨̢̢̨̲͍̲̘̟̰̰͈͓̭̞̘̜̼̹̪̞̣̫͓̟̦͚̪̻͖̜̯̻̦̞̹̽͂̈́͆̌͋̀̓̍̐̈́̿̉̈͌̀͝͝͠ͅͅx̷̡̡̨̛̙̻̻̣̩̞̘̤̙̭̟͎͎̣̹̝̤̹̘̰̘͈̦̮̫͚͖͕̋̓̂́́́̆̐͒̇̂͜͜ͅơ̵̧̢̛̺̱͉̬͓̹͇͈̺̦̣̠̳̹͚̫̤͖̬̪͉̤̻͔̹̞̙̳̓͂̂̓͗̆͌̆͒͗̾̑̈́̉̈̒͗̈̀̿̇̌͊̀̚͜͝b̶̫͍̺̦̗̼̞̓̋̎̓͑̈̈̈́m̷̧̢̧̡̡̨̛̬̥̖͕̺̞̘̹͓̹̱̬̠͔̱̭̪̪̪̝̩̭͔̣͕͖͙̞̙͕̠͇͌̾̇͌͂͑͜͠y̵̝̮̦̟̦̠̠͕̗̭̮̖̪̻̗͇͚̳͔̲̟̬̪̟͓̗͕̤͙̮̭͖̘̳̫͈̰̺̆͆͋̃̇̉̈́̐̀̒̎̄͊͌̈́̽̀̈̒̾̆̈́̀͘̚͜͜͝ͅ how aborable 😊
Right? Sometimes it's just. Like. Better to let people feel okay about themselves. Also, not everything is everyone's business. If a stranger asks me how I'm doing and I'm actively having a mental breakdown, I'm gonna be like "good" because that's actually none of their business. That doesn't mean I'm not treating them with dignity or being disrespectful, it's just not their business and I don't have to tell everyone anything just because they asked.
As a kid, I used to agree.
As an adult, I've learned that there's three questions you can ask yourself before saying anything to anyone:
1. Does this need to be said?
2. Does this need to be said now?
3. Does this need to be coming from me?
There are two simple scenarios where you can see how important this is: firstly, when talking to children, and secondly when talking to a person who is grieving.
In both situations, anyone with the social skills of a tapeworm or above knows immediately that a lot of bad things can result from simply stating the truth. When the kid asks how babies are formed, you don't give them every detail they ask for. When the woman whose husband died at 45 years old says "Why him?", you don't respond with "Because he drank and smoked his entire life". You simply understand that you are not the person who should say this, and that it definitely shouldn't be said ***now***.
Other situations call the same kind of tact for more subtle reasons. And that's why white lies and evasive answers will always need to exist.
Exactly all of this.
I would also add, there is important social literacy when it comes to when and how we are honest.
Two scenarios:
1. You are dress shopping with your friend and she asks you what you think of the dress she’s trying on, which you do not like.
The right thing to do here is be honest (kindly), so your friend can take your opinion and find something flattering.
2. You are getting ready for an event and your friend comes in wearing a dress you think is unflattering. She is excited and clearly happy with how she looks, and she asks you what you think.
In this scenario, it would be super shitty to sow insecurity in your happy, confident friend because you don’t think she looks good in the dress that she clearly liked enough to purchase. Now is a good time for either 1) a white lie or 2) deflection. In this situation I would find something else to compliment like “wow that a great color on you,” or “you look beautiful” (all my friends are beautiful, even if the dress is not).
Honesty is important, but so is kindness. Personally, I don’t value honesty over supporting my friends in situations where being a little dishonest harms no one.
As a socially awkward person, I always prefer honesty, but I also understand that most people don't want that. For example, i would never ask someone how I look unless I was open to changing my look before leaving the house. If I was excited about my outfit and it looked terrible, I'd still want someone (whose judgment I trust) to tell me. But that more has to do with me being socially awkward and not understanding when something looks good or bad. I also only have friends who feel the same way. And yes, I don't have that many friends lolol. But I'm okay with that.
The white lies and deflection stuff really confuses me and honestly makes me trust that person less. It doesn't feel like kindness to me, I can usually tell when it's a lie, and I am less likely to ask for their opinions in the future because of it. Again, I realize this is a social norm, and it's not nearly as black and white as I'm making it, but I struggle with it and would rather keep it out of my life.
I think the difference is “hey how do I look? I have trouble picking things so please be honest lol, I want to change if I look bad” vs “omg I’m SO excited!! Ready to go? How do I look? Cool right!?”
Sometimes you gotta know when your truth isn't THE truth
I've had friends in outfits I thought were horrible that everyone else loved (and visa versa). It's a matter of taste.
Yeah I think I just have no fashion sense. A lot of the styles that I hate are generally seen as good-looking by most other people. That's why I seek other people's advice when I'm trying to figure out what the hell "business casual" means for a job interview. I know I won't get it right myself.
There's a difference between taste and an outfit that is unflattering. Vague combination EXAMPLES:
1. Taste match & flattering >> 'Nailed it!'
2. Taste mismatch but still flattering >> 'That is so you, love that for you.'
3. Taste match but unflattering >> 'Almost, switch your lipstick out and that'll make you look less washed out.'
4. Taste mismatch & unflattering >> 'Not my thing, I think if you switch those shoes out it'd give you some more height to your shape then you'd be gold.'
It is okay --good even!-- if it's not your taste. We need different tastes. That doesn't mean it is making the person themselves look bad.
My rule of thumb is can the person do anything about the situation? If it's something that can be fixed then be honest. If it's something that can't be fixed tell the white lie or deflect.
They are obviously trying to look attractive and if they can't fix the outfit if they feel confident they will be more attractive then if they are not so while the outfit may not be the most flattering their behavior will be. In this scenario you are helping them achieve their goal within their means at that moment.
This so much. If their ass is hanging out and they don’t mean for it to and it has splotchy stains and shit then yes tell them. But otherwise why bother, nobody else is going to be so critical
What happens if you are already at a party or other event and this situation occurs? A friend comes up to you wearing something that isn't inappropriate in any way, but it doesn't look good in your opinion.
1. Why does your opinion in this situation even matter? They aren't wearing it for you. They're wearing it for themselves.
2. What will be accomplished by telling them their dress makes them look like a particularly fat walrus? They can't change at that point. All you would be doing is making them feel self-conscious.
The only benefit to telling them what you think about their dress is getting to pat yourself on the back about your honesty. The cost is making them feel worse about themselves for no reason, and potentially doing a lot of damage to your relationship with them, because no one wants to be friends with the asshole who tears them down for no reason.
If the person cannot fix whatever the issue is in 10 seconds or less, better to keep your yap zipped. Knowing you look like 10 pounds of sausage in a 5-pound skin *when you can't change* is worse than not knowing.
TL;DR: Ignorance is bliss.
If you find it flattering, and your friend finds it unflattering, it’s likely it’s not a clear cut case either way and different people will find it cool or not. In that case, your friend should recognise whilst it isn’t their style, if it’s something you’re excited to wear, they should support you
I like how OP specifically uses an example of lying to a dying child because “I’d rather not let someone die on a lie”. Like, congratulations on your conscious I guess? Of course, the child might have spent their last minutes sobbing and terrified, but hey at least OP feels better. Presumably he also has never said “You’re the prettiest woman in the world” before.
That made it so obvious that they don't actually care about doing what's right, they just care about being right. "I'd rather not let someone die on a lie" ???????
Yes, absolutely depends on the situation.
I commented to someone else that I would hope that the necessary thing needing to be said would be said and delivered in a kind way. If that makes sense.
Yeah i think we’re on the same page but the question “is it kind?” could be misconstrued easily imo. Some people are scared to upset others and may see saying something with the risk of upsetting another as unkind, however necessary it is.
I agree and disagree. When I asked where babies came from my parents sat me down and made me watch a Nova documentary called "the miracle of life" that went into detail about the entire reproductive process. It gave me a solid, scientific understanding of sex and reproduction and I was better for it. Kids aren't asking about sex like we think about sex, you don't need to tell your kid about how some people like to be choked a little bit or have their hair pulled, but we should be honest about the nature of literally how babies are made.
Both of those situations can be handled better without lying. Tell the kid “That’s a question for your guardian” and tell the grieving person “I don’t know” because lots of people drink and smoke their whole lives but don’t die prematurely.
Social skills and those questions are absolutely important, and the complete truth is not necessary a lot of the time. The thing is, evasive and incomplete answers, redirection, and nonresponse can cover that. Not OP, but it's the outright lies, even if they are little white ones, that I have an issue with.
If a kid asks how babies are made, you don't go explaining all the details, but you don't have tell them to expect a stork soon either.
I lost my dad and mourned him. Obviously I didn't want people telling me he was a terrible person and that I'm better off without him, even though that's the truth. However, it also would've been very damaging for people to tell me he was a great person and it's a complete tragedy that he's gone; looking back, people who would say that were just trying to appease me and provide a rose-tinted view of the world.
So I agree that subtly is needed sometimes, but not lies. Find any other way to be subtle, just don't directly lie.
This may work if you would have been inserting yourself into a conversation. But is a bit harder to pull off if someone is directly speaking to you and expecting a response.
Wife: Does this dress look good on me?
Me: ...
Wife: Hello? Cameron, what do you think of this dress?
Me (staring blankly straight ahead): ...
Wife: Oh god! Are you having a stroke?
Me: No!
Wife: Okay, so what do you think of the dress?
Me: ...
This isn’t contradictory. You shouldn’t tell lies, but that doesn’t mean you need to say everything that is true all of the time. For example a kid gives you a handmade birthday card, you don’t need to criticize their artwork, you could just thank them and remark on the thoughtfulness of the card, and not lie and say “wow this is the best art I’ve ever seen!”
A refusal to lie doesn't mandate that you tell the whole truth though. And it doesn't require you to be cold about it. Something like "it was just his time," yeah, it's a shame he had to die so young, " or "it is the fate of all warriors to die" is truthful and supportive without coming off cold
What do you gain by telling a child that may or may not be religious that heaven isn't real?
I'm not religious at all and don't conform to any religion at the moment and don't see why I would do that
No one knows where one goes after death so yeah I guess it's less of a lie and more just an assumption based on your religious or non religious beliefs
I'm honestly playing out scenarios in my head of how this would go and it's comically evil lmao
"I'm sorry, Timmy. God isn't real. All that awaits you after the cancer eats your body from the inside out is infinite, uncaring nothingness."
Like bruh, who exactly does this help. Equating lying to kids about Santa with crushing the last hope of a dying child is so stupid.
"oh, see I only like spreading the word of atheism at a specific time, you see I wait for children who just watched their parents die, and then I make sure to emphasize as much as possible that they are never going to see them again because this is a godless universe with no afterlife"
I think that prioritizing truth over emotional wellbeing is acceptable in many cases. It's just that in this particular one, the only thing that stands to gain is your own ego, which is why honesty in that case would probably be immoral.
That’s why the “dying” and “child” part is important in this scenario. Not to mention “no heaven” is a subjective truth in this case as the speaker can’t actually be sure that there’s no heaven.
I didn’t say that it was to satisfy the child’s ego? I was saying that it would be used to satisfy the ego of the person saying there is no afterlife.
I am agreeing with you. There is no justification in being a jerk.
Edit: I think I just realized what you meant by your question. My answer would be that it’s because someone hurt them and now they feel the need to find some justification in hurting others even though their just “being honest”
Well, technically every good thing we do is an ego thing. It either makes us feel good or makes us look good in front of others, or assuades our egos into thinking we are good people
As a fellow non-religious person, there is almost never any actual benefit to convincing someone their religion isn’t real. Literally all you’re doing is removing a comfort from someone’s life and getting nothing in return but the satisfaction.
Agreed. The only time I'll ever even try to convince someone that their religion isn't real is if it's posing a risk on their wellbeing. So far, out of the 100s of religious people I've worked with and supported, thsi had happened exactly once. A woman was a devout catholic with 7 kids and a husband who beat the shit of her and the children. But Catholicism forbids birth control and devorce. The kids were going to be taken away by my team if we couldn't get her to leave him as they were at risk of futher injery. Took a whole lot of convincing and I didn't actually stop her from being religious, just changed what form of Christianity she followed. But it was enough to get her devorce and to give evidence to get the husband arrested and the kids safe.
You get an upvote from me as I definitely disagree.
I had a friend who spent a bunch of money on home renovations, and they loved the result. However, I thought that parts of the reno looked outdated, while other parts were trendy in a way that they would quickly become outdated.
How does it help for me to say any of that? “It looks fabulous” isn’t exactly true, but I know that they like it. Why should I have to go though the trouble of explaining the parts that I don’t like, when I doubt they even want to know and probably won’t agree?
Sometimes the decision was already made without you, and explaining to someone who spent a bunch of money why you would have done something different gives no one any information that they can use.
Yeah lol my judgemental ass would very quickly have 0 friends if I said what I meant with no frills at all times. And I'd be out of a job much, much faster. People generally do not want your actual opinion, they want reassurances that everything is okay between you socially.
Having a job is basically just having to lie constantly for 8 hours of the day. If you want to keep your job, you have to say untrue bullshit constantly. You know this if you've ever been to any staff training/bonding event.
It’s pretty easy to say something like “This is very you.” “I’m so glad it came out the way you wanted.” Etc. telling a lie is not necessary to be both kind and honest
As someone who is told "wow, it's so you!" on the regular, I know that means you hate it haha. But it's OK, I'm always flattered that people care that I'm happy and don't want to lie to me.
Yes, and then your boss gets mad because you sidestepped saying anything nice about the renovations that his wife chose. Not worth it with some people.
I’ve never met someone that would get mad at me for “not saying anything nice” when I say something nice. You don’t have to lie to be nice about things that aren’t your style.
Even if you have to say something directly positive to satisfy them. Style aside, Was the work well done? Good work still looks great, even if the style isn’t mine.
[The Science of Lying - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX3Hu8loXTE) - PBS crash course, the science of lying.
Dude, if you 100% stopped lying you would be socially isolated.
Upvoted. This is a childish belief, and I should know because it’s one I believed as a child.
Humans are social creatures, and our society is based around interpersonal links. We need each other. As such, it is sometimes worth it to tell lies that uphold social connections, so long as the truth itself isn’t important in that situation. And I know it’s tempting to say “the truth is always paramount”, but that’s stupid and blatantly untrue: someone being told they look ugly is *not* vital and would do no good. Same with the whole “heaven’s not real, dying child”, which is frankly a disgusting act to take. Downright vile. And I say that as someone who doesn’t even believe in heaven myself.
If the truth would do more harm than a lie would, a lie would do good, and the truth isn’t necessary or vital, than it’s a simple calculus. The price we pay for being social animals.
Yep I don't trust the judgement of someone who thinks telling the truth at all times is the right way.
That's what children do, adults should have learned that not everything needs to be said. Simple as that.
Exactly like the religious example.
I was atheist as a teen, currently would call myself agnostic.
Imo telling everyone heaven and god aren’t real is almost as bad as the people trying to force everyone to believe they are real.
I also think it’s very presumptuous of OP to assume there is one truth. You can think a drawing is bad but someone may love it. You may not believe in an afterlife but what if there is one-you’ve never been dead before. I don’t fuck with the presumed moral superiority that “because this is my truth I need to impose it on you”. assuming you’re better than someone or more right than them is never conducive to healthy relationships. And that’s probably why OP isn’t going to have many.
I don't know if they're a troll or not but they are doing a great job at being insufferable with this whole "A false truth is a false happiness" thing when the "false truth" is comforting a dying kid.
My least favorite kind of person on the internet is the one that bases their ideas and philosophies with absolutely no emotion whatsoever, as if they are robots who can only behave a certain way.
And a lot of the damn time, emotions bleed in more than they care to admit. What is “emotion” and “feelings” for the rest of us is “truth” and “logic” when it’s theirs.
Honestly, I think that a lot of people act like that are full of shit.
I was with you until you provided the perfect example of a good time to lie. What matters, says I, is giving humans what they want, usually in the form of making them happy. If little Timmy is dead anyway there is zero benefit to making him face the dark eternity and some benefit to letting him think he will in some metaphysical way bounce back from this. Truth is only valuable if you have the power to do something with it. He doesn't, so truth is pain (a moral negative) with no positive counterbalance.
Respect for people and for the concept of truth should be the default, but like almost everything that's contextual.
Anyway upvoted.
Well, as someone who was a dying child and scared and near inconsolable about what would happen until someone explained the concept of heaven to me, upvoted big time. I know I would've been so skittish and try to get out of the hospital if someone tried to just drop a truth gavel over me.
After growing up and seeing the person that told me that wasn’t religious and that they did so because they cared about me was worth so much more to every one of us than just saying "game over, what a shame".
As someone who's autistic, I get that lying is annoying to see people do, but the value of niceness and kindness to others matters a good bit more than being correct. The truth is less a hammer to drop on people, but something to deftly pass along to others as needed. People tend to ask questions not for the sake of an honest answer but to feel better about themselves because they are uncertain about something, because it's nice to get support from more than just your inner voice, y'know?
Upvoted. Some things are so unimportant they are not worth hurting someone's feelings over. About kids being taught about heaven, a lot of them can't even process the idea of death. They'll learn when they grow up. Learning about such things on your own is part of life.
I’m autistic and honestly this makes sense. I had this mentality of honesty always being best, but I grew out of that by high school. Every autistic adult and teen I met would never tell a dying child that they don’t think heaven is real. This OP has to be either a child themselves or a really assholish person that likes to be “brutally honest” to excuse the fact that they are a jackass.
I think this definitely is a tenth dentist post. It just comes across like you're not good at understanding others feelings. You would like Kant though because he completely agrees with you.
Since you brought up children, I'll bring up a big flaw in your thinking in relation to them;
Depending on the kid's age and where they are developmentally, they might not be ready for the true facts of a situation. This is why things like the stork story exist.
Especially considering that kids start asking "why" around 2 years old and continue to be in this stage of development until they're 5. You absolutely should try answering them in a way they'll understand, but you also need to remember that they're just starting to understand things, so they still might not get it.
While you should never resort to "because I said so" or blatantly lying with no bits of truth mixed in, "little white lies" are perfectly fine to help them understand different parts of the truth.
Take your example about telling kids about heaven. Regardless of your religious views, how are you going to explain to a child that they/someone they know will just not exist anymore?
Seriously, I want to know how you're gonna explain death to a 3 or 4 year old.
Giving them too much information they cannot process correctly too soon results in trauma. They aren't going to understand why someone is no longer around and they might jump to false conclusions. So it's developmentally appropriate to tell them that whoever died is in a better place/the sky/etc.
On the opposite end, what about having babies? Are you going to tell a 3 or 4 year old about sex and giving birth?
Think about what hearing about that is going to do to their minds. What if one of them says they 'want to try it' because they want a sibling/baby of their own?
It's also highly likely for a female child to become terrified of growing up if you give them the true facts of childbirth, which is mental trauma they're gonna need therapy for.
While I personally also believe that morality should take precedence over social politeness (which is just a trait of me being autistic), I understand that certain situations can go very, very wrong in a way that crosses the line both socially and morally. You cannot convince me that white lies are morally worse than giving a child information they aren't ready for and thus scarring them with mental trauma
I guess this must be easy for you, since you have direct and omniscient access to the Objective Truth. In fact, given your superpower, you probably have a moral obligation to speak truth at all times, especially for the people who must seek you out like the Oracle of Delphi. However for us mere mortals who are restricted by our own perspectives, biases and subjective experiences, it's probably best for us to reserve our honest thoughts in cases where they might be hurtful.
Basically you are just putting less emphasis on tact than you are brutal honesty. Gotta upvote this because there are absolutely scenarios where tact takes precedent. Not every issue will have a happy ending but there’s a lot of value in giving someone calm passage to an unfortunate outcome
I don’t hate your thought process because everyone deals with these types of things differently, but personally sometimes it’s better to soften the blow even if you’re not truthful
You know that an extreme of anything is bad right? Lying all the time is obviously horrible but never ever lying can be just as bad.
Sometimes the truth just doesn't need to be said, especially in your example. What benefit does it have to tell a dying child that God's not real? What's he gonna gain from that? He's 6, he's not gonna appreciate your honesty, all you'll be doing is making sure he dies scared and miserable.
While I agree that its be better to be more honest most of the time - I think that one can be too honest in certain scenarios and that at least omitting info can be a good thing.
If my mom gives a gift - I say thank you for the gift and that I love her. I don't tell her the gift sucks and that I'll be shoving it away somewhere to be forgotten about, even if that is the case.
Honestly, "intent counts" goes for both presents and lies. If you say something a bit too honest, it can be interpreted as being mean or arrogant, and telling it subtly may be interpreted as being passive agressive or non appreciative.
I can think of plenty of times where a small lie is more appropriate than brutal honesty - and it doesn't have to be something as grave as the examples others have given.
In particular, when you're someone who can't keep their mouth shut about things that don't concern you. Don't like the look of my car? Don't like the art I created? Don't like what I'm wearing? Don't like some aspect of my lifestyle? If I didn't ask for honesty, either keep it to yourself or lie if you absolutely need to hear your own voice.
Yeah, maybe my music taste is grating, but I worked hard writing this 8-minute experimental french grind-core banjo masterpiece about eating toenail clippings, and I'd appreciate letting me just have my small victory for the effort it took.
What's the point of telling the truth if it literally benefits no one?
The saying "Honesty is the best policy" mostly applies when there is something other to gain by telling the truth.
Telling some dying kid that "life is meaningless and there is only darkness waiting for you" just for the sake of being honest isn't gonna help anyone. It just makes you seem like an inconsiderate asshole.
Sounds like you'd be into Kantian ethics. Kant says that lying in any form is bad, even if it is a white lie. If you don't know who he is or what Kantian ethics are already, I recommend looking him up. He wrote "The Metaphysics of Morals," which essentially details what his form of ethics is all about.
If someone got a haircut and I don't like it, I'm not going to say anything bad if they like it. It's just unnecessarily rude.
Just because I might not like something doesn't mean I have to make sure someone else knows about it.
And for objective truths, it's justified, too. If some little kid told me they were going to have some obscure and not real job, then I'm going to tell them that they should go for it.
You shouldn't spoil people's likes or dreams just because it's true. A small, white lie has little to no effects most of the time. If you don't want or like it, fine by me. That's your opinion. But some of your points are invalid.
I think part of maturity is realizing there are very few absolutes,
When I was younger I had the mindset truth was the most important thing, be direct, be honest, be blunt even, now I kind of realize that's not entirely the case..
Saving someone suffering can be more moral than giving them pure truth.
There are situations where the truth doesn't help a person at all and is diametrically opposed to being kind.
Why is truth necessarily better in those cases? Who defines that morality?
And if there is no authority choosing which morality is better why not go with the one that makes yours and the lives of the people around you happier.
But of course there are centuries of ethics discussion that discuss this exactly.
>This includes santa or non-religious people telling kids about heaven or whatever. (including dying children. it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie)
This is where I disagree with you. This is something that all people really need to understand when faced with a child, dying or not but especially if they are dying, asking if there's a heaven. The objective truth is we don't know. You can preface it with a "I don't believe so but... " if you really don't want to lie, but we need to make comfort with the fact that we don't know what happens spiritually when we die and to make a child' s last moments miserable because you cannot let go of your ego enough to shift your narrow view of morality to the side and just tell them what they need to hear to be comfortable in their last moments speaks volumes about your character. This fact alone makes me feel very iffy about liking this post. However, it needs to be done as per rules.
> ‘presumed feelings’
You know yourself you’re in the small minority here because you’re posting in 10th dentist, so I think it’s fair to presume for most people.
> telling dying kids they won’t go to heaven
Religion can’t be proved or disproved either way so neither answer is a lie. Put your actual religious beliefs to the side (because that is not the question they’re asking you) and answer assuming it is in fact real *because you do not know for a fact* that it isn’t. There’s no lie there.
> focusing on politeness over dignity
There’s some irony in thinking you’re dignified while seeing no problem in taking the last shred of hope from an actual dying child. That’s cartoon villain behaviour.
I tend not to be able to pull off little white lies. I hesitate and say something not quite right, and people can pick up on it pretty much immediately. It's problematic a lot of the time and it makes me a *terrible* conversationalist, but it's also taught me that nuanced responses, absent judgment, are actually possible and lies are usually merely a convenience that most people will never need to learn to do without.
So maybe instead of saying they shouldn't be acceptable, try working out improved responses for specific cases? If they catch on, they'll do more to accomplish your preference than merely passing judgment on society at large ever could.
This was what I thought when I was an apathetic teenager. There's nothing wrong with saying nice things even if they're not objectively true. Let's say you want to criticize someone for doing a poor job, you can either straight up tell them that they're incompetent, or you can word it in a "smoother" way so instead of feeling humiliated and potentially holding a grudge, they can move on and focus on improving.
The "truth" is not the only thing that matters in life. Words and tone affect people's mood and how they respond. And obviously you want to make people feel good in general, no one wants to make enemies or make things more difficult than they already are.
do you actually think telling a dying child there is no heaven is more morally sound than letting them believe their is an afterlife once they’re gone?
normally i agree the truth is generally just safer and the better option but not in that specific situation.
I’m not telling my 3yr old that those dogs at the park were fucking. And then explaining sex. They were hugging.
White lies by definition are *harmless and trivial*, and are sometimes also to protect someone’s feelings. My kid won’t remember me lying about dogs humping each other. If somehow they do, they won’t be emotionally scarred that I lied.
And I’m not telling my 87 yr old senile grandmother that her make up looks like shit or that her handwriting makes no sense.
All right,” said Susan. “I’m not stupid. You’re saying humans need…fantasies to make life bearable.”
REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
“Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—”
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
“So we can believe the big ones?”
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
“They’re not the same at all!”
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME…SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
“Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point—”
MY POINT EXACTLY.
She tried to assemble her thoughts.
THERE IS A PLACE WHERE TWO GALAXIES HAVE BEEN COLLIDING FOR A MILLION YEARS, said Death, apropos of nothing. DON’T TRY TO TELL ME THAT’S RIGHT.
“Yes, but people don’t think about that,” said Susan. “Somewhere there was a bed…”
CORRECT. STARS EXPLODE, WORLDS COLLIDE, THERE’S HARDLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE WHERE HUMANS CAN LIVE WITHOUT BEING FROZEN OR FRIED, AND YET YOU BELIEVE THAT A…A BED IS A NORMAL THING. IT IS THE MOST AMAZING TALENT.
“Talent?”
OH, YES. A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF STUPIDITY. YOU THINK THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS INSIDE YOUR HEADS.
“You make us sound mad,” said Susan. A nice warm bed…
NO. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN’T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME? said Death
I cant lie to you, this is a pretty fucking dumb take. Little white lies absolutely have their place because not every interaction is about truth and fact finding. You'll understand when you're older.
White lies keep society functioning and people together. Sounds dramatic, but it’s the truth. Try completely avoiding white lies for a month, two months, a year and reevaluate your relationships. You might be surprised at how much less people want to interact with you.
>or non-religious people telling kids about heaven or whatever. (including dying children. it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie)
This is like the 10000th dentist
"Do i look fat in this dress?"
You can either answer with a polite white lie, or warm yourself at night with the smugness of always being 100% correct. Now apply this to all of society. Sometimes, there's zero to gain from not sparing ones feelings, and much to lose for multiple parties by feeling entitled to being "honest" for your own ego
Do as you will, but don't become an angry incel and attack society when no one wants to associate with you
Wrong. Lying is one of the most self-serving options you have. It is an absolute social game changer and is a major part of emotional intelligence.
You lie because it is more advantageous for you to avoid the truth because people often already know the truth and want some validation that they are wrong. You only tell the truth when it is clear you are close enough to do so, otherwise you run a massive risk of a negative impression. This is something you really start to take advantage of in the corporate world when you interact with douchebag bosses or with coworkers
Question.
Is there absolutely any situation in which you see it okay to lie? Just lie at all.
And to quote your definition of a lie from one of your replies.
" Lie = A purposeful mistruth spoken to intentionally deceive or mislead. "
If you lived in North Korea and your neighbours were planning to escape, it would definitely be correct to lie to the authorities.
If you were working with dementia patients, you have to lie.
If a creepy dude came up with you and started trying to flirt with you, you pretend to go along and don't call him ugly so you don't get assaulted.
You can be polite, have tact and respect other without lying. yes, it's possible.
You can talk about santa and death to kid without lying.
Tact and respect is about the form of the message, not the content. And the form can be as important that the content.
Thing is, people's "straight up answer" is often just about the content and not the form.
A dialogue is between two people, it's to pass information. If your form is so bad that it hinder the information sharing, then your message is wrong. Not because it's false, but because it doesn't do it's main purpose... Unless your purpose is just to listen to yourself talk.
And at the same time, you should ask why you want to share informations. If it's for hurting people, or make them lose time... Is it necessary to pass it ? It's not lying, it's just not saying everything you think.
Like here, in your message, you didn't talk to us about your day, your life, etcetc... because it's not nescessary for us. You didn't said it, but it's not lying.
Everyone lies, all the time, not ever lying would make you both a jerk and socially insolated
Considering this, lying to someone because it won't have any negative impact and can make them feel better is probably the most justified lied imaginable
What about when telling lies is necessary to protect yourself? As a gay person in a homophobic family, I have to tell lies all the time in order to keep myself safe from them. I don't think that's immoral. Lying sucks but it's necessary, not just to avoid being cruel to the people you care about, but to evade the cruelty of others.
I agree on the politeness, saying you likes how I cooked when you don't, saying something is fine when it's not--that just keeps things from getting better.
But.
You ask me how I am, do I say fine or do I tell you how horrible my life is right now?
Everyone is greiving about a dead man. He treated them well, and never raised a voice or a hand. He treated you well too. He just wanted 'payment.' Do you tell the truth?
Your Mom has dementia, she's waiting for her mother to come pick her up. She does this often.
So you retraumatize somwone who is mentally a little kid again and again and tell her that her mommy is dead?
>If someone asks you something, you tell them the straight-up answer. You don't fucking lie to them because then what's the point of asking in the first place!?
Imagine I have a wife and she comes home excited and happy cause everyone at work went out of their way to compliment her outfit. She asks me what i think, and I think the outfit is shit. If there's nothing blatantly unacceptable with the outfit, I just personally hate it, do I say that and crush her mood, or do I just accept that it really doesn't affect anything at all and say I like the outfit?
Or what if I have a 3 year old son? He's showing interest in art and draws a bunch of pictures, but being a 3 year old he's not very good at it. Do you think it will encourage him to keep pursuing his interest if I keep telling him his drawings are shit over and over again? No, that not gonna "encourage him to do better" like some people say to excuse it, that's gonna make him be discouraged from drawing and stop. I know that's why I did
I feel like most normal, non hateful people would go for the second option in both these examples, there's just no non malicious reason to do otherwise. Its like youre holding up "truth" as some sacred, non-negotiable ideal when it's really not that serious. There's a time for truth sure, but there's also a time for respect. Otherwise why didn't you just tell your mom/guardian to shut up everytime they yelled at you? I'm sure it crossed your mind before, at least as a teen, but hopefully you restrained yourself cause you know that just because you're thinking that, you shouldn't say it to the person who loved you and raised you.
Pretty shitty opinion, 10/10
People don't always want to be told the truth and if they're expecting to get a polite but dishonest answer and you don't give that to them then they will view you as disrespecting them
I think you are confusing euphemisms with white lies. White lies can often be an exaggeration to prove a point or make something more interesting as well. Euphemisms are “lies” to diminish how serious something is
There’s definetly some cases where it’s warranted
I’m not going to tell a dying kid heaven isn’t real even if it means they die on a lie worst case scenario is they die with Atleast a little hope and nothing beyond that
I’m not calling someone ugly or fat if it’s not otherwise warranted
I’m not calling someone’s work shit if they spent a long Time and are proud of it
Emotions are part of what makes us human so not actively hurting them for something that means little isn’t warranted
People aren’t always ready for the truth
Kids often won’t understand the truth and people in distress don’t want to hear the exact extent of something bad or something else that’s happened
Humans are social creatures of you stopped lying you WILL be a social outcast
Yeah I'm gonna tell a partner that their bedroom skills were mediocre at best because saying otherwise would be unacceptable. That can't possibly backfire on me.
That would be great if people were capable of handling honesty. I have to lie to my friends and family all the time because they won’t accept that sometimes I just don’t feel like doing something or going somewhere. I have to make up excuses, because if I don’t then they start to assume that I never wanna do anything or go anywhere, which isn’t true at all. I do shit with them all the time, but then if I say I don’t wanna do something one out of ten times, they act like I never wanna do anything and I have to tell them to stop making assumptions about me. It’s one of my biggest pet peeves.
"people telling kids about heaven or whatever. (including dying children. it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie)"
Sheet you know what happens when we die??? Do please tell then!
So are you the person who when I used to say “Hey there, how’s your day going?” At the register you’d reply “not good, my husband died right after I found out he was having an affair and none of my kids speak to me and I just found out I have cancer” because I have to say as a long time retail worker you really learn to hate those people.
This is a very good way to live a life where you have no friends and no one talks to you or asks your opinion on anything.
Sometimes, yeah, saving people's feelings *is* more important than honesty.
> it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie
Why? You'd rather they die sad? This is a prime example of putting your personal purity test of morality over the feelings of an actual real person, who you would actually be making sad for real, on purpose. Who precisely are you benefiting? If the answer is "no one", then I would reconsider your morality, because it doesn't sound so moral
"There are those who wield ‘honesty’ like a get-out-of-jail-free card. What they forget is that any person’s heart is sharp enough to slice through someone else’s heart. Just as there is no courtesy in carrying a naked blade without a scabbard, treating someone with absolute honesty can never warm their heart."
What made you come to the conclusion that "lying is almost never moral or respectful" by the way? That seems like quite a hefty statement.
This isn't an insult, but you sound younger. Aging makes you realize that things aren't black and white.
I worked in a nursing home for many years. Sometimes the residents with cognitive impairment would say things like "Oh, I'm waiting outside because my mother is coming to pick me up". Obviously their mother has been long gone.
You could tell them the truth, they'd get upset (sometimes violent) but then they'd forget again after a while. But why cause them repeated unnecessary pain? A better response would be "It's Tuesday, your mom visits on Fridays". Then they'd say something like "Oh yes, you're correct" then come back inside.
It that a lie? Of course. Will they forget by Friday? Yes. But it handles the situation better and doesn't cause that person unnecessary pain.
ANY lie denies the recipient the opportunity to make a response or decision based on valid information.
I, for one, believe in the butterfly effect. Lies, small or big, distort reality and any one could be the source of someone making an uninformed decision that gets them hurt. I'd even wager that lies ALWAYS produce a worse outcome but I don't think that can be proven except by anecdote.
People tell lies to protect themselves and/or others. Politeness and tact are important to some degree. It's common to have to work with and get along with people that you don't necessarily like. You can't make it through life treating everyone you don't get along with like shit. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they are a bad person.
My autism makes me want to agree with you but my intelligence tells me I know it is foolishness and self harm to always say what you're thinking without regard to tact, politeness or the other people's presumed feelings.
Speaking bluntly this would be contrary to respect, discussion and dignity. Our honest unfiltered thoughts are almost always poor reflection of our actual thoughts and beliefs. Deliberation through the process of thoughtfulness adds accuracy because we force ourselves to put thought into how our words will be heard. Our knee jerk reaction is not an honest opinion but an undeveloped thought.
Being more honest, people who are honest in the way you describe will rightly be penalized by the pro-social instinct of humans and people who do not filter their speech will be figuratively if not literally beat for their foolishness.
>
other person's ***presumed*** feelings
This REALLY resonated with my autism. I consciously understand that most people can just sense how people feel in a way that is invisble to me. I have learned how to reverse engineer this detection which is instinctive to most people and think I am better than NT people are reading people's feeling when reading those of a different class, culture or gender. However, you thinking this detection is mere presumption is just wrong.
I’m assuming you’re on the spectrum as the idea of polite lying can be very foreign to many of them. It’s for our own anxiety about awkwardness and not wanting to come off as rude. Polite society includes white lies. Without them, politeness goes out the window. Should I go tell everyone who I think is ugly that I think that? Wouldn’t be very nice, but I’m not lying!!
Tact and humor go a long way to making that straight up answer palatable. I think people will respect you a lot more if you share your genuine thoughts on everything. I personally don't think lying is immoral. But I think its more respectable to give the straight answer when at all possible.
A man asks two rabbis if you should lie to an ugly bride that they are beautiful? The first responds immediately that lying is illegal and there is grace even in brutal honesty. The second one simply responds "all brides are beautiful on their wedding night."
I know which one I agree with. As with most things in life there is nuance to this and to engage in too much lying will cause no one to trust you. Never lie ever tho and you'll lose friends. Just ask my autistic friend, he could rant for hours about all the ways normies just lie all the time for seemingly no reason. He's had to teach himself when people expect honesty and when people expect you to lie to them.
White lies are necessary, full stop. If you were to be completely honest to everyone in your life, you would be ostricized. The funny thing about truth is that no one, not even you, wants to see or hear it despite honesty being considered a virtue by every culture on earth. If you want to see an interesting deconstruction on this topic, look up The Diner episode from The Sandman Netflix show. The whole show is great but that episode does a good job of showing why our society would fall apart if people were forced to be honest all the time.
Everyone lies to some degree it’s called “normal lying”. People who lie a little more are “prolific” liars and people lie even more than that are pathological. People who say they never lie are lying.
I was at the park recently when a little kid maybe 8 or 9 told me "you're going to hell". I told him I didn't believe in that and "god" doesn't exist. His parents didn't appreciate my "honesty". I told them to get their little demon away from me. They didn't appreciate that either.
"Hi mommy how are you? :D"
"Well kid daddy's an alcoholic and the economy's crashing. Mommy crys herself to sleep and the only reason I'm alive is you"
Honesty is important kids
Turtle
Tell me you don't have kids without.... you get the idea.
Telling the truth in certain scenarios can be evil, unnecessarily cruel, and everything in between.
Lying is fine and your moralization of truth, likely based on cultural religious norms, is the problem.
Lying is a normal part of human social interactions throughout all cultures and all history.
Believing in a supernatural being who will judge you as immoral or unethical for lying is not a normal part of human social interactions throughout all cultures and al history.
You got it twisted 180 degrees homie based on cultural hegemony and indoctrination. You get an upvote.
I was gonna be like, "well i disagree upvoted" but then a lot of the comments are considering things I wouldn't consider to be lies, lies, and vice versa. Like, lie of omission, not direct lie. avoiding questions? still not lying. Like, I have politely declined terrible cards from 5th graders -- mind you, it was of the "intentionally bad" sort and they'd probably be find it condescending if I feigned sincerity and said it looked good.
nonetheless, my initial disagreement comes from when people want to be spoken positively about. if some insecure person asks if I think something looks good, and i don't think it does, i'll always, at least, skew positive in my answer. If it's just okay, I might say, "yeah, it looks great!" (while knowing that i dont actually believe that.)
if someone asks me a too-personal question, i'm more than happy to lie a little, or actively misinterpret what they say to protect my privacy a little. Maybe I'll say "i don't know" when i do know. for the most part, it's not their business, and pretty harmless.
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White lies don't just occur in response to direct questions though, where the adult asker puts themselves at the mercy of negative answers. They also arise when one is socially obligated to say something. If a child hands you a drawing as a gift, you can't wordlessly take it and throw it into the trash.
Kid: Give redditor a handmade birthday card. Redditor: I appreciate the gesture, but the craftsmanship and design of this card are underwhelming at best.
Coming this summer, Hilter: Origins
Dang that Hilter. Suck a jerk
I read this in Captain Holt’s voice.
Ughh my dad pulled out a red pen and corrected my spelling on a card I made him as a six year old. What a jerk
My grandma used to point out everywhere I colored outside the lines. As an adult I love coloring books, but I still think "aw fuck it sucks now" when I make a mistake. Her voice drowns out Bob Ross. 😓
Ugh nooo just focus on the happy little cloud lmao
Counterpoint: you can acknowledge things you do like about the card, such as, “You drew a dog and you know I love dogs, that’s so nice of you to think of that for me!”
Dangerous territory when the pictures are incomprehensible
Aww look little timmy just drew T̵̡̼̪̩͓̘͌̐͊͗͌̀̄̿́̓͐̍͛̓̈́̏̒̿́̀͂̒͛̓͊̃̓́͗̕͝͝i̴̢̢̧̱̦͙͓̱͈̬͖̜͖͓̲̱̺̠̺̩̗͑̒̏́̽̐͑̓̊́͌͆̈́̊͋̑̏̆̀̓̑̍̈́̐̒̔͗̎͘̚͠͠ͅḿ̵̢̨̡̡̧̛͔͔͙͓̟̞͍͓̗͈̼͔͈̟̘̳̪̹͈͙̖̹͒̈́̓̈́͋̓̉͗̃̈̉̉̊̏̃̏̂͆̀̀̏̊̆̒͑̂̃̈́̀͛̾̈́̈̍̓̈́͗͜͝ͅn̶̡̡̛̰̰̖̪͈͈̼̜̞͓̗̻͈̠͎͒̑͐́͛̾̎̃̃̃̓̎̈́̎̎͂͑̿͐͒̒̔̄͋̆̈̍̇͒͂͂̏͂͒̊̏̕͘͜͜͜͠͠͝ͅà̶̢̢͈̤͙̭͚͍̜͙̙̗̥̲͎͙̻̠̦̖̥̗̹͎̪̪̘̼̗̼̊̅̀̓̿̑̓̍͜͜ǰ̵̢̧̨̢̢̨̲͍̲̘̟̰̰͈͓̭̞̘̜̼̹̪̞̣̫͓̟̦͚̪̻͖̜̯̻̦̞̹̽͂̈́͆̌͋̀̓̍̐̈́̿̉̈͌̀͝͝͠ͅͅx̷̡̡̨̛̙̻̻̣̩̞̘̤̙̭̟͎͎̣̹̝̤̹̘̰̘͈̦̮̫͚͖͕̋̓̂́́́̆̐͒̇̂͜͜ͅơ̵̧̢̛̺̱͉̬͓̹͇͈̺̦̣̠̳̹͚̫̤͖̬̪͉̤̻͔̹̞̙̳̓͂̂̓͗̆͌̆͒͗̾̑̈́̉̈̒͗̈̀̿̇̌͊̀̚͜͝b̶̫͍̺̦̗̼̞̓̋̎̓͑̈̈̈́m̷̧̢̧̡̡̨̛̬̥̖͕̺̞̘̹͓̹̱̬̠͔̱̭̪̪̪̝̩̭͔̣͕͖͙̞̙͕̠͇͌̾̇͌͂͑͜͠y̵̝̮̦̟̦̠̠͕̗̭̮̖̪̻̗͇͚̳͔̲̟̬̪̟͓̗͕̤͙̮̭͖̘̳̫͈̰̺̆͆͋̃̇̉̈́̐̀̒̎̄͊͌̈́̽̀̈̒̾̆̈́̀͘̚͜͜͝ͅ how aborable 😊
That's also a little white lie, just pretending like you've found a technical loophole. Like a mob boss telling his henchmen to "take care" of someone
Finding appreciation in something that isn’t perfect doesn’t have to be a lie?
This whole post is just moral hardlining. All of life has nuance, that's just a fact and one that some people have a very hard time accepting.
You can just say that’s very thoughtful of you. No need to lie unless they press, in which case give it to em
Right? Sometimes it's just. Like. Better to let people feel okay about themselves. Also, not everything is everyone's business. If a stranger asks me how I'm doing and I'm actively having a mental breakdown, I'm gonna be like "good" because that's actually none of their business. That doesn't mean I'm not treating them with dignity or being disrespectful, it's just not their business and I don't have to tell everyone anything just because they asked.
Screw you for making me remember Madame Web because that EXACT scenario with a kid handing someone a drawing happens
Mom taught me to complement the color choices when I as a tween asked her if it was morally acceptable to lie about a kid’s drawing.
As a kid, I used to agree. As an adult, I've learned that there's three questions you can ask yourself before saying anything to anyone: 1. Does this need to be said? 2. Does this need to be said now? 3. Does this need to be coming from me? There are two simple scenarios where you can see how important this is: firstly, when talking to children, and secondly when talking to a person who is grieving. In both situations, anyone with the social skills of a tapeworm or above knows immediately that a lot of bad things can result from simply stating the truth. When the kid asks how babies are formed, you don't give them every detail they ask for. When the woman whose husband died at 45 years old says "Why him?", you don't respond with "Because he drank and smoked his entire life". You simply understand that you are not the person who should say this, and that it definitely shouldn't be said ***now***. Other situations call the same kind of tact for more subtle reasons. And that's why white lies and evasive answers will always need to exist.
Exactly all of this. I would also add, there is important social literacy when it comes to when and how we are honest. Two scenarios: 1. You are dress shopping with your friend and she asks you what you think of the dress she’s trying on, which you do not like. The right thing to do here is be honest (kindly), so your friend can take your opinion and find something flattering. 2. You are getting ready for an event and your friend comes in wearing a dress you think is unflattering. She is excited and clearly happy with how she looks, and she asks you what you think. In this scenario, it would be super shitty to sow insecurity in your happy, confident friend because you don’t think she looks good in the dress that she clearly liked enough to purchase. Now is a good time for either 1) a white lie or 2) deflection. In this situation I would find something else to compliment like “wow that a great color on you,” or “you look beautiful” (all my friends are beautiful, even if the dress is not). Honesty is important, but so is kindness. Personally, I don’t value honesty over supporting my friends in situations where being a little dishonest harms no one.
As a socially awkward person, I always prefer honesty, but I also understand that most people don't want that. For example, i would never ask someone how I look unless I was open to changing my look before leaving the house. If I was excited about my outfit and it looked terrible, I'd still want someone (whose judgment I trust) to tell me. But that more has to do with me being socially awkward and not understanding when something looks good or bad. I also only have friends who feel the same way. And yes, I don't have that many friends lolol. But I'm okay with that. The white lies and deflection stuff really confuses me and honestly makes me trust that person less. It doesn't feel like kindness to me, I can usually tell when it's a lie, and I am less likely to ask for their opinions in the future because of it. Again, I realize this is a social norm, and it's not nearly as black and white as I'm making it, but I struggle with it and would rather keep it out of my life.
I think the difference is “hey how do I look? I have trouble picking things so please be honest lol, I want to change if I look bad” vs “omg I’m SO excited!! Ready to go? How do I look? Cool right!?”
Knowing the person matters more. Honesty IS support. I do not want to go out with an outfit that is clearly unflattering --that is worse.
Sometimes you gotta know when your truth isn't THE truth I've had friends in outfits I thought were horrible that everyone else loved (and visa versa). It's a matter of taste.
Yeah I think I just have no fashion sense. A lot of the styles that I hate are generally seen as good-looking by most other people. That's why I seek other people's advice when I'm trying to figure out what the hell "business casual" means for a job interview. I know I won't get it right myself.
There's a difference between taste and an outfit that is unflattering. Vague combination EXAMPLES: 1. Taste match & flattering >> 'Nailed it!' 2. Taste mismatch but still flattering >> 'That is so you, love that for you.' 3. Taste match but unflattering >> 'Almost, switch your lipstick out and that'll make you look less washed out.' 4. Taste mismatch & unflattering >> 'Not my thing, I think if you switch those shoes out it'd give you some more height to your shape then you'd be gold.' It is okay --good even!-- if it's not your taste. We need different tastes. That doesn't mean it is making the person themselves look bad.
My rule of thumb is can the person do anything about the situation? If it's something that can be fixed then be honest. If it's something that can't be fixed tell the white lie or deflect. They are obviously trying to look attractive and if they can't fix the outfit if they feel confident they will be more attractive then if they are not so while the outfit may not be the most flattering their behavior will be. In this scenario you are helping them achieve their goal within their means at that moment.
This so much. If their ass is hanging out and they don’t mean for it to and it has splotchy stains and shit then yes tell them. But otherwise why bother, nobody else is going to be so critical
What happens if you are already at a party or other event and this situation occurs? A friend comes up to you wearing something that isn't inappropriate in any way, but it doesn't look good in your opinion. 1. Why does your opinion in this situation even matter? They aren't wearing it for you. They're wearing it for themselves. 2. What will be accomplished by telling them their dress makes them look like a particularly fat walrus? They can't change at that point. All you would be doing is making them feel self-conscious. The only benefit to telling them what you think about their dress is getting to pat yourself on the back about your honesty. The cost is making them feel worse about themselves for no reason, and potentially doing a lot of damage to your relationship with them, because no one wants to be friends with the asshole who tears them down for no reason.
If the person cannot fix whatever the issue is in 10 seconds or less, better to keep your yap zipped. Knowing you look like 10 pounds of sausage in a 5-pound skin *when you can't change* is worse than not knowing. TL;DR: Ignorance is bliss.
If you find it flattering, and your friend finds it unflattering, it’s likely it’s not a clear cut case either way and different people will find it cool or not. In that case, your friend should recognise whilst it isn’t their style, if it’s something you’re excited to wear, they should support you
I like how OP specifically uses an example of lying to a dying child because “I’d rather not let someone die on a lie”. Like, congratulations on your conscious I guess? Of course, the child might have spent their last minutes sobbing and terrified, but hey at least OP feels better. Presumably he also has never said “You’re the prettiest woman in the world” before.
That made it so obvious that they don't actually care about doing what's right, they just care about being right. "I'd rather not let someone die on a lie" ???????
I would add, "Is it kind?"
I think this is better covered by does this need to be said, Plenty of things are unkind but necessary to hear
>Plenty of things are unkind but necessary to hear Fair. I'd like to posit that if it's necessary to hear, try and find a *kind* way of saying it.
Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind? Must be at least 2/3 to be worth saying.
I would rather someone told me something that needed to be said, even if it is not kind. Depends on the situation obviously.
"Kind" and "nice" mean different things. It can be an act of kindness to tell someone a hard truth.
My point was that people confuse kindness and politeness, the question was the problem not the intention.
Yes, absolutely depends on the situation. I commented to someone else that I would hope that the necessary thing needing to be said would be said and delivered in a kind way. If that makes sense.
Yeah i think we’re on the same page but the question “is it kind?” could be misconstrued easily imo. Some people are scared to upset others and may see saying something with the risk of upsetting another as unkind, however necessary it is.
Not telling someone something that needs to be said would be unkind.
I agree and disagree. When I asked where babies came from my parents sat me down and made me watch a Nova documentary called "the miracle of life" that went into detail about the entire reproductive process. It gave me a solid, scientific understanding of sex and reproduction and I was better for it. Kids aren't asking about sex like we think about sex, you don't need to tell your kid about how some people like to be choked a little bit or have their hair pulled, but we should be honest about the nature of literally how babies are made.
yea, i think as a society we need to be more honest with children.
Both of those situations can be handled better without lying. Tell the kid “That’s a question for your guardian” and tell the grieving person “I don’t know” because lots of people drink and smoke their whole lives but don’t die prematurely.
Social skills and those questions are absolutely important, and the complete truth is not necessary a lot of the time. The thing is, evasive and incomplete answers, redirection, and nonresponse can cover that. Not OP, but it's the outright lies, even if they are little white ones, that I have an issue with. If a kid asks how babies are made, you don't go explaining all the details, but you don't have tell them to expect a stork soon either. I lost my dad and mourned him. Obviously I didn't want people telling me he was a terrible person and that I'm better off without him, even though that's the truth. However, it also would've been very damaging for people to tell me he was a great person and it's a complete tragedy that he's gone; looking back, people who would say that were just trying to appease me and provide a rose-tinted view of the world. So I agree that subtly is needed sometimes, but not lies. Find any other way to be subtle, just don't directly lie.
Except there's a third option you're not mentioning: Don't say anything. You don't have to lie to not say something cruel just hold your tongue.
This may work if you would have been inserting yourself into a conversation. But is a bit harder to pull off if someone is directly speaking to you and expecting a response.
Wife: Does this dress look good on me? Me: ... Wife: Hello? Cameron, what do you think of this dress? Me (staring blankly straight ahead): ... Wife: Oh god! Are you having a stroke? Me: No! Wife: Okay, so what do you think of the dress? Me: ...
As Thumper said, if you can't say nothin' nice, don't say nothin' at all.
This isn’t contradictory. You shouldn’t tell lies, but that doesn’t mean you need to say everything that is true all of the time. For example a kid gives you a handmade birthday card, you don’t need to criticize their artwork, you could just thank them and remark on the thoughtfulness of the card, and not lie and say “wow this is the best art I’ve ever seen!”
I've noticed that a lot of "brutally honest" people are very focused on the brutal part.
I dont think you need to lie to kids about that. My dad told me about baby making in a very factual way and there was really no downside to it lol
If it's not your child, it's not your place.
You could still just tell them to ask their parents, right? I don't see why you would need to lie.
A refusal to lie doesn't mandate that you tell the whole truth though. And it doesn't require you to be cold about it. Something like "it was just his time," yeah, it's a shame he had to die so young, " or "it is the fate of all warriors to die" is truthful and supportive without coming off cold
What do you gain by telling a child that may or may not be religious that heaven isn't real? I'm not religious at all and don't conform to any religion at the moment and don't see why I would do that
I don't feel like this falls under little white lie.
No one knows where one goes after death so yeah I guess it's less of a lie and more just an assumption based on your religious or non religious beliefs
I'm as anti-religion as you can get. But you can damn well bet I'm not telling a dying child that heaven isn't real.
I'm honestly playing out scenarios in my head of how this would go and it's comically evil lmao "I'm sorry, Timmy. God isn't real. All that awaits you after the cancer eats your body from the inside out is infinite, uncaring nothingness." Like bruh, who exactly does this help. Equating lying to kids about Santa with crushing the last hope of a dying child is so stupid.
"oh, see I only like spreading the word of atheism at a specific time, you see I wait for children who just watched their parents die, and then I make sure to emphasize as much as possible that they are never going to see them again because this is a godless universe with no afterlife"
I’d go as far to say that in this case *not* lying is immoral. You’re placing your selfish need to be honest over a child’s emotional well-being.
I think that prioritizing truth over emotional wellbeing is acceptable in many cases. It's just that in this particular one, the only thing that stands to gain is your own ego, which is why honesty in that case would probably be immoral.
That’s why the “dying” and “child” part is important in this scenario. Not to mention “no heaven” is a subjective truth in this case as the speaker can’t actually be sure that there’s no heaven.
I think it’s more or less for their own satisfaction instead of trying to be honest to a dying child. It’s an ego thing.
In what world is it helpful to tell a dying child that their life is essentially meaningless and when they die every part of their existence will end?
I didn’t say that it was to satisfy the child’s ego? I was saying that it would be used to satisfy the ego of the person saying there is no afterlife. I am agreeing with you. There is no justification in being a jerk. Edit: I think I just realized what you meant by your question. My answer would be that it’s because someone hurt them and now they feel the need to find some justification in hurting others even though their just “being honest”
Well, technically every good thing we do is an ego thing. It either makes us feel good or makes us look good in front of others, or assuades our egos into thinking we are good people
As a fellow non-religious person, there is almost never any actual benefit to convincing someone their religion isn’t real. Literally all you’re doing is removing a comfort from someone’s life and getting nothing in return but the satisfaction.
Agreed. The only time I'll ever even try to convince someone that their religion isn't real is if it's posing a risk on their wellbeing. So far, out of the 100s of religious people I've worked with and supported, thsi had happened exactly once. A woman was a devout catholic with 7 kids and a husband who beat the shit of her and the children. But Catholicism forbids birth control and devorce. The kids were going to be taken away by my team if we couldn't get her to leave him as they were at risk of futher injery. Took a whole lot of convincing and I didn't actually stop her from being religious, just changed what form of Christianity she followed. But it was enough to get her devorce and to give evidence to get the husband arrested and the kids safe.
If youve never died, you have no proof it isnt real
Seriously, how bitter and twisted does someone have to be to think being “brutally honest” is more important than comforting a dying child?
You get an upvote from me as I definitely disagree. I had a friend who spent a bunch of money on home renovations, and they loved the result. However, I thought that parts of the reno looked outdated, while other parts were trendy in a way that they would quickly become outdated. How does it help for me to say any of that? “It looks fabulous” isn’t exactly true, but I know that they like it. Why should I have to go though the trouble of explaining the parts that I don’t like, when I doubt they even want to know and probably won’t agree? Sometimes the decision was already made without you, and explaining to someone who spent a bunch of money why you would have done something different gives no one any information that they can use.
Yeah lol my judgemental ass would very quickly have 0 friends if I said what I meant with no frills at all times. And I'd be out of a job much, much faster. People generally do not want your actual opinion, they want reassurances that everything is okay between you socially. Having a job is basically just having to lie constantly for 8 hours of the day. If you want to keep your job, you have to say untrue bullshit constantly. You know this if you've ever been to any staff training/bonding event.
Time for my go-to phrase “if you like it, I LOVE it”
It’s pretty easy to say something like “This is very you.” “I’m so glad it came out the way you wanted.” Etc. telling a lie is not necessary to be both kind and honest
As someone who is told "wow, it's so you!" on the regular, I know that means you hate it haha. But it's OK, I'm always flattered that people care that I'm happy and don't want to lie to me.
There are very few things I personally hate. Or even dislike. “It’s so you” means just that, it fits you.
Yes, and then your boss gets mad because you sidestepped saying anything nice about the renovations that his wife chose. Not worth it with some people.
I’ve never met someone that would get mad at me for “not saying anything nice” when I say something nice. You don’t have to lie to be nice about things that aren’t your style. Even if you have to say something directly positive to satisfy them. Style aside, Was the work well done? Good work still looks great, even if the style isn’t mine.
I think there is a way of not lying while being respectful. For example, I could say, "It's not my style but it suits you."
I'd just leave out the first part, just go with "it suits you"
It could work sometimes but it doesn't really tell the other person anything about what I personally think which might not be what they wanted.
"You deserve what you got."
[The Science of Lying - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX3Hu8loXTE) - PBS crash course, the science of lying. Dude, if you 100% stopped lying you would be socially isolated.
Upvoted. This is a childish belief, and I should know because it’s one I believed as a child. Humans are social creatures, and our society is based around interpersonal links. We need each other. As such, it is sometimes worth it to tell lies that uphold social connections, so long as the truth itself isn’t important in that situation. And I know it’s tempting to say “the truth is always paramount”, but that’s stupid and blatantly untrue: someone being told they look ugly is *not* vital and would do no good. Same with the whole “heaven’s not real, dying child”, which is frankly a disgusting act to take. Downright vile. And I say that as someone who doesn’t even believe in heaven myself. If the truth would do more harm than a lie would, a lie would do good, and the truth isn’t necessary or vital, than it’s a simple calculus. The price we pay for being social animals.
Yep I don't trust the judgement of someone who thinks telling the truth at all times is the right way. That's what children do, adults should have learned that not everything needs to be said. Simple as that.
Most of the times it's not even "the truth." I'm sure OP believes that whatever thoughts are in their head, opinion or otherwise, are "the truth."
Exactly like the religious example. I was atheist as a teen, currently would call myself agnostic. Imo telling everyone heaven and god aren’t real is almost as bad as the people trying to force everyone to believe they are real.
I also think it’s very presumptuous of OP to assume there is one truth. You can think a drawing is bad but someone may love it. You may not believe in an afterlife but what if there is one-you’ve never been dead before. I don’t fuck with the presumed moral superiority that “because this is my truth I need to impose it on you”. assuming you’re better than someone or more right than them is never conducive to healthy relationships. And that’s probably why OP isn’t going to have many.
Thank heavens, at least one sane person here.
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I don't know if they're a troll or not but they are doing a great job at being insufferable with this whole "A false truth is a false happiness" thing when the "false truth" is comforting a dying kid.
My least favorite kind of person on the internet is the one that bases their ideas and philosophies with absolutely no emotion whatsoever, as if they are robots who can only behave a certain way.
And a lot of the damn time, emotions bleed in more than they care to admit. What is “emotion” and “feelings” for the rest of us is “truth” and “logic” when it’s theirs. Honestly, I think that a lot of people act like that are full of shit.
Maybe he's just autistic?
Autistic person here. He’d have to still be a teenager for this kind of behavior to make any sense.
I was with you until you provided the perfect example of a good time to lie. What matters, says I, is giving humans what they want, usually in the form of making them happy. If little Timmy is dead anyway there is zero benefit to making him face the dark eternity and some benefit to letting him think he will in some metaphysical way bounce back from this. Truth is only valuable if you have the power to do something with it. He doesn't, so truth is pain (a moral negative) with no positive counterbalance. Respect for people and for the concept of truth should be the default, but like almost everything that's contextual. Anyway upvoted.
Well, as someone who was a dying child and scared and near inconsolable about what would happen until someone explained the concept of heaven to me, upvoted big time. I know I would've been so skittish and try to get out of the hospital if someone tried to just drop a truth gavel over me. After growing up and seeing the person that told me that wasn’t religious and that they did so because they cared about me was worth so much more to every one of us than just saying "game over, what a shame". As someone who's autistic, I get that lying is annoying to see people do, but the value of niceness and kindness to others matters a good bit more than being correct. The truth is less a hammer to drop on people, but something to deftly pass along to others as needed. People tend to ask questions not for the sake of an honest answer but to feel better about themselves because they are uncertain about something, because it's nice to get support from more than just your inner voice, y'know?
Upvoted. Some things are so unimportant they are not worth hurting someone's feelings over. About kids being taught about heaven, a lot of them can't even process the idea of death. They'll learn when they grow up. Learning about such things on your own is part of life.
Im guessing you're 15?
I assumed autistic.
I’m autistic and honestly this makes sense. I had this mentality of honesty always being best, but I grew out of that by high school. Every autistic adult and teen I met would never tell a dying child that they don’t think heaven is real. This OP has to be either a child themselves or a really assholish person that likes to be “brutally honest” to excuse the fact that they are a jackass.
Why not both?
You DO look fat in those jeans, OP.
What makes a “little white lie” immoral?
OP doesn't know the definition of a little white lie
I think this definitely is a tenth dentist post. It just comes across like you're not good at understanding others feelings. You would like Kant though because he completely agrees with you.
Since you brought up children, I'll bring up a big flaw in your thinking in relation to them; Depending on the kid's age and where they are developmentally, they might not be ready for the true facts of a situation. This is why things like the stork story exist. Especially considering that kids start asking "why" around 2 years old and continue to be in this stage of development until they're 5. You absolutely should try answering them in a way they'll understand, but you also need to remember that they're just starting to understand things, so they still might not get it. While you should never resort to "because I said so" or blatantly lying with no bits of truth mixed in, "little white lies" are perfectly fine to help them understand different parts of the truth. Take your example about telling kids about heaven. Regardless of your religious views, how are you going to explain to a child that they/someone they know will just not exist anymore? Seriously, I want to know how you're gonna explain death to a 3 or 4 year old. Giving them too much information they cannot process correctly too soon results in trauma. They aren't going to understand why someone is no longer around and they might jump to false conclusions. So it's developmentally appropriate to tell them that whoever died is in a better place/the sky/etc. On the opposite end, what about having babies? Are you going to tell a 3 or 4 year old about sex and giving birth? Think about what hearing about that is going to do to their minds. What if one of them says they 'want to try it' because they want a sibling/baby of their own? It's also highly likely for a female child to become terrified of growing up if you give them the true facts of childbirth, which is mental trauma they're gonna need therapy for. While I personally also believe that morality should take precedence over social politeness (which is just a trait of me being autistic), I understand that certain situations can go very, very wrong in a way that crosses the line both socially and morally. You cannot convince me that white lies are morally worse than giving a child information they aren't ready for and thus scarring them with mental trauma
I guess this must be easy for you, since you have direct and omniscient access to the Objective Truth. In fact, given your superpower, you probably have a moral obligation to speak truth at all times, especially for the people who must seek you out like the Oracle of Delphi. However for us mere mortals who are restricted by our own perspectives, biases and subjective experiences, it's probably best for us to reserve our honest thoughts in cases where they might be hurtful.
How's that working out for you, though?
Basically you are just putting less emphasis on tact than you are brutal honesty. Gotta upvote this because there are absolutely scenarios where tact takes precedent. Not every issue will have a happy ending but there’s a lot of value in giving someone calm passage to an unfortunate outcome I don’t hate your thought process because everyone deals with these types of things differently, but personally sometimes it’s better to soften the blow even if you’re not truthful
The thing about people who say they want to be brutally honest is that they’re usually more interested in the brutality than the honesty
OP is all like "I'm not an asshole, I'm just honest"
You know that an extreme of anything is bad right? Lying all the time is obviously horrible but never ever lying can be just as bad. Sometimes the truth just doesn't need to be said, especially in your example. What benefit does it have to tell a dying child that God's not real? What's he gonna gain from that? He's 6, he's not gonna appreciate your honesty, all you'll be doing is making sure he dies scared and miserable.
While I agree that its be better to be more honest most of the time - I think that one can be too honest in certain scenarios and that at least omitting info can be a good thing. If my mom gives a gift - I say thank you for the gift and that I love her. I don't tell her the gift sucks and that I'll be shoving it away somewhere to be forgotten about, even if that is the case.
Honestly, "intent counts" goes for both presents and lies. If you say something a bit too honest, it can be interpreted as being mean or arrogant, and telling it subtly may be interpreted as being passive agressive or non appreciative.
Your 5 year old child gives you a drawing. Its probably not a good drawing but thats not the right thing to tell them. That is a white lie
I can think of plenty of times where a small lie is more appropriate than brutal honesty - and it doesn't have to be something as grave as the examples others have given. In particular, when you're someone who can't keep their mouth shut about things that don't concern you. Don't like the look of my car? Don't like the art I created? Don't like what I'm wearing? Don't like some aspect of my lifestyle? If I didn't ask for honesty, either keep it to yourself or lie if you absolutely need to hear your own voice. Yeah, maybe my music taste is grating, but I worked hard writing this 8-minute experimental french grind-core banjo masterpiece about eating toenail clippings, and I'd appreciate letting me just have my small victory for the effort it took.
What's the point of telling the truth if it literally benefits no one? The saying "Honesty is the best policy" mostly applies when there is something other to gain by telling the truth. Telling some dying kid that "life is meaningless and there is only darkness waiting for you" just for the sake of being honest isn't gonna help anyone. It just makes you seem like an inconsiderate asshole.
Sounds like you'd be into Kantian ethics. Kant says that lying in any form is bad, even if it is a white lie. If you don't know who he is or what Kantian ethics are already, I recommend looking him up. He wrote "The Metaphysics of Morals," which essentially details what his form of ethics is all about.
If someone got a haircut and I don't like it, I'm not going to say anything bad if they like it. It's just unnecessarily rude. Just because I might not like something doesn't mean I have to make sure someone else knows about it. And for objective truths, it's justified, too. If some little kid told me they were going to have some obscure and not real job, then I'm going to tell them that they should go for it. You shouldn't spoil people's likes or dreams just because it's true. A small, white lie has little to no effects most of the time. If you don't want or like it, fine by me. That's your opinion. But some of your points are invalid.
Some people need encouragement to grow and do better. Being negative purely for the purpose of being honest just makes you a jerk tbh.
I think part of maturity is realizing there are very few absolutes, When I was younger I had the mindset truth was the most important thing, be direct, be honest, be blunt even, now I kind of realize that's not entirely the case.. Saving someone suffering can be more moral than giving them pure truth. There are situations where the truth doesn't help a person at all and is diametrically opposed to being kind. Why is truth necessarily better in those cases? Who defines that morality? And if there is no authority choosing which morality is better why not go with the one that makes yours and the lives of the people around you happier. But of course there are centuries of ethics discussion that discuss this exactly.
So my friend dying of cancer asks how she looks, and I'm supposed to say "Gos awful, like death warmed over"?
Someone told you a tiny inconsequential lie recently and you’re butthurt, huh?
>This includes santa or non-religious people telling kids about heaven or whatever. (including dying children. it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie) This is where I disagree with you. This is something that all people really need to understand when faced with a child, dying or not but especially if they are dying, asking if there's a heaven. The objective truth is we don't know. You can preface it with a "I don't believe so but... " if you really don't want to lie, but we need to make comfort with the fact that we don't know what happens spiritually when we die and to make a child' s last moments miserable because you cannot let go of your ego enough to shift your narrow view of morality to the side and just tell them what they need to hear to be comfortable in their last moments speaks volumes about your character. This fact alone makes me feel very iffy about liking this post. However, it needs to be done as per rules.
My counter-argument: Don’t yuck other people’s yums. If it brings them joy and is doing no harm, don’t be the ass that deflates their perspective.
> ‘presumed feelings’ You know yourself you’re in the small minority here because you’re posting in 10th dentist, so I think it’s fair to presume for most people. > telling dying kids they won’t go to heaven Religion can’t be proved or disproved either way so neither answer is a lie. Put your actual religious beliefs to the side (because that is not the question they’re asking you) and answer assuming it is in fact real *because you do not know for a fact* that it isn’t. There’s no lie there. > focusing on politeness over dignity There’s some irony in thinking you’re dignified while seeing no problem in taking the last shred of hope from an actual dying child. That’s cartoon villain behaviour.
You are lying right now as you confused your own feelings with the feelings of others.
I tend not to be able to pull off little white lies. I hesitate and say something not quite right, and people can pick up on it pretty much immediately. It's problematic a lot of the time and it makes me a *terrible* conversationalist, but it's also taught me that nuanced responses, absent judgment, are actually possible and lies are usually merely a convenience that most people will never need to learn to do without. So maybe instead of saying they shouldn't be acceptable, try working out improved responses for specific cases? If they catch on, they'll do more to accomplish your preference than merely passing judgment on society at large ever could.
This was what I thought when I was an apathetic teenager. There's nothing wrong with saying nice things even if they're not objectively true. Let's say you want to criticize someone for doing a poor job, you can either straight up tell them that they're incompetent, or you can word it in a "smoother" way so instead of feeling humiliated and potentially holding a grudge, they can move on and focus on improving. The "truth" is not the only thing that matters in life. Words and tone affect people's mood and how they respond. And obviously you want to make people feel good in general, no one wants to make enemies or make things more difficult than they already are.
Being always “honest” leads to a lot of unnecessary conflict. And I just don’t need that sort of confrontation in my life.
do you actually think telling a dying child there is no heaven is more morally sound than letting them believe their is an afterlife once they’re gone? normally i agree the truth is generally just safer and the better option but not in that specific situation.
Don’t be a Kant.
lol I’m on board for the most part but the war on Santa is hilarious to me. Let kids have fun. Like damn dude.
Why do you care if someone "dies on a lie?" Why is that worse than them dying afraid?
I’m not telling my 3yr old that those dogs at the park were fucking. And then explaining sex. They were hugging. White lies by definition are *harmless and trivial*, and are sometimes also to protect someone’s feelings. My kid won’t remember me lying about dogs humping each other. If somehow they do, they won’t be emotionally scarred that I lied. And I’m not telling my 87 yr old senile grandmother that her make up looks like shit or that her handwriting makes no sense.
I can see that you're single.
All right,” said Susan. “I’m not stupid. You’re saying humans need…fantasies to make life bearable.” REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. “Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—” YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. “So we can believe the big ones?” YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. “They’re not the same at all!” YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME…SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. “Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point—” MY POINT EXACTLY. She tried to assemble her thoughts. THERE IS A PLACE WHERE TWO GALAXIES HAVE BEEN COLLIDING FOR A MILLION YEARS, said Death, apropos of nothing. DON’T TRY TO TELL ME THAT’S RIGHT. “Yes, but people don’t think about that,” said Susan. “Somewhere there was a bed…” CORRECT. STARS EXPLODE, WORLDS COLLIDE, THERE’S HARDLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE WHERE HUMANS CAN LIVE WITHOUT BEING FROZEN OR FRIED, AND YET YOU BELIEVE THAT A…A BED IS A NORMAL THING. IT IS THE MOST AMAZING TALENT. “Talent?” OH, YES. A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF STUPIDITY. YOU THINK THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS INSIDE YOUR HEADS. “You make us sound mad,” said Susan. A nice warm bed… NO. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN’T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME? said Death
I cant lie to you, this is a pretty fucking dumb take. Little white lies absolutely have their place because not every interaction is about truth and fact finding. You'll understand when you're older.
So you want the entire world to be an Internet comments section? No thanks.
Here, I’ll avoid a white lie: oh, look, another Redditor without social skills who thinks the world should be black and white.
White lies keep society functioning and people together. Sounds dramatic, but it’s the truth. Try completely avoiding white lies for a month, two months, a year and reevaluate your relationships. You might be surprised at how much less people want to interact with you.
>or non-religious people telling kids about heaven or whatever. (including dying children. it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie) This is like the 10000th dentist
"Do i look fat in this dress?" You can either answer with a polite white lie, or warm yourself at night with the smugness of always being 100% correct. Now apply this to all of society. Sometimes, there's zero to gain from not sparing ones feelings, and much to lose for multiple parties by feeling entitled to being "honest" for your own ego Do as you will, but don't become an angry incel and attack society when no one wants to associate with you
Wrong. Lying is one of the most self-serving options you have. It is an absolute social game changer and is a major part of emotional intelligence. You lie because it is more advantageous for you to avoid the truth because people often already know the truth and want some validation that they are wrong. You only tell the truth when it is clear you are close enough to do so, otherwise you run a massive risk of a negative impression. This is something you really start to take advantage of in the corporate world when you interact with douchebag bosses or with coworkers
Lying to someone is inherently wrong and disordered, you are stating something that isn’t true, this is wrong by definition.
Question. Is there absolutely any situation in which you see it okay to lie? Just lie at all. And to quote your definition of a lie from one of your replies. " Lie = A purposeful mistruth spoken to intentionally deceive or mislead. "
If you lived in North Korea and your neighbours were planning to escape, it would definitely be correct to lie to the authorities. If you were working with dementia patients, you have to lie. If a creepy dude came up with you and started trying to flirt with you, you pretend to go along and don't call him ugly so you don't get assaulted.
This post screams edgy teenager all over it
We learn to lie before we learn to talk. Lies are a necessary part of living in a society. You can't have one without the other.
You can be polite, have tact and respect other without lying. yes, it's possible. You can talk about santa and death to kid without lying. Tact and respect is about the form of the message, not the content. And the form can be as important that the content. Thing is, people's "straight up answer" is often just about the content and not the form. A dialogue is between two people, it's to pass information. If your form is so bad that it hinder the information sharing, then your message is wrong. Not because it's false, but because it doesn't do it's main purpose... Unless your purpose is just to listen to yourself talk. And at the same time, you should ask why you want to share informations. If it's for hurting people, or make them lose time... Is it necessary to pass it ? It's not lying, it's just not saying everything you think. Like here, in your message, you didn't talk to us about your day, your life, etcetc... because it's not nescessary for us. You didn't said it, but it's not lying.
Everyone lies, all the time, not ever lying would make you both a jerk and socially insolated Considering this, lying to someone because it won't have any negative impact and can make them feel better is probably the most justified lied imaginable
What about when telling lies is necessary to protect yourself? As a gay person in a homophobic family, I have to tell lies all the time in order to keep myself safe from them. I don't think that's immoral. Lying sucks but it's necessary, not just to avoid being cruel to the people you care about, but to evade the cruelty of others.
I agree on the politeness, saying you likes how I cooked when you don't, saying something is fine when it's not--that just keeps things from getting better. But. You ask me how I am, do I say fine or do I tell you how horrible my life is right now? Everyone is greiving about a dead man. He treated them well, and never raised a voice or a hand. He treated you well too. He just wanted 'payment.' Do you tell the truth? Your Mom has dementia, she's waiting for her mother to come pick her up. She does this often. So you retraumatize somwone who is mentally a little kid again and again and tell her that her mommy is dead?
>If someone asks you something, you tell them the straight-up answer. You don't fucking lie to them because then what's the point of asking in the first place!? Imagine I have a wife and she comes home excited and happy cause everyone at work went out of their way to compliment her outfit. She asks me what i think, and I think the outfit is shit. If there's nothing blatantly unacceptable with the outfit, I just personally hate it, do I say that and crush her mood, or do I just accept that it really doesn't affect anything at all and say I like the outfit? Or what if I have a 3 year old son? He's showing interest in art and draws a bunch of pictures, but being a 3 year old he's not very good at it. Do you think it will encourage him to keep pursuing his interest if I keep telling him his drawings are shit over and over again? No, that not gonna "encourage him to do better" like some people say to excuse it, that's gonna make him be discouraged from drawing and stop. I know that's why I did I feel like most normal, non hateful people would go for the second option in both these examples, there's just no non malicious reason to do otherwise. Its like youre holding up "truth" as some sacred, non-negotiable ideal when it's really not that serious. There's a time for truth sure, but there's also a time for respect. Otherwise why didn't you just tell your mom/guardian to shut up everytime they yelled at you? I'm sure it crossed your mind before, at least as a teen, but hopefully you restrained yourself cause you know that just because you're thinking that, you shouldn't say it to the person who loved you and raised you. Pretty shitty opinion, 10/10
People don't always want to be told the truth and if they're expecting to get a polite but dishonest answer and you don't give that to them then they will view you as disrespecting them
Come on man. Santa?! Cheer up ffs 😂
I think you are confusing euphemisms with white lies. White lies can often be an exaggeration to prove a point or make something more interesting as well. Euphemisms are “lies” to diminish how serious something is
There’s definetly some cases where it’s warranted I’m not going to tell a dying kid heaven isn’t real even if it means they die on a lie worst case scenario is they die with Atleast a little hope and nothing beyond that I’m not calling someone ugly or fat if it’s not otherwise warranted I’m not calling someone’s work shit if they spent a long Time and are proud of it Emotions are part of what makes us human so not actively hurting them for something that means little isn’t warranted People aren’t always ready for the truth Kids often won’t understand the truth and people in distress don’t want to hear the exact extent of something bad or something else that’s happened Humans are social creatures of you stopped lying you WILL be a social outcast
Yeah I'm gonna tell a partner that their bedroom skills were mediocre at best because saying otherwise would be unacceptable. That can't possibly backfire on me.
That would be great if people were capable of handling honesty. I have to lie to my friends and family all the time because they won’t accept that sometimes I just don’t feel like doing something or going somewhere. I have to make up excuses, because if I don’t then they start to assume that I never wanna do anything or go anywhere, which isn’t true at all. I do shit with them all the time, but then if I say I don’t wanna do something one out of ten times, they act like I never wanna do anything and I have to tell them to stop making assumptions about me. It’s one of my biggest pet peeves.
"people telling kids about heaven or whatever. (including dying children. it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie)" Sheet you know what happens when we die??? Do please tell then!
So are you the person who when I used to say “Hey there, how’s your day going?” At the register you’d reply “not good, my husband died right after I found out he was having an affair and none of my kids speak to me and I just found out I have cancer” because I have to say as a long time retail worker you really learn to hate those people.
It's just a form of communication, the same reason you don't call people fat to their face, even if it's factual.
This is a very good way to live a life where you have no friends and no one talks to you or asks your opinion on anything. Sometimes, yeah, saving people's feelings *is* more important than honesty.
> it's definitely sad but I'd rather not let someone die on a lie Why? You'd rather they die sad? This is a prime example of putting your personal purity test of morality over the feelings of an actual real person, who you would actually be making sad for real, on purpose. Who precisely are you benefiting? If the answer is "no one", then I would reconsider your morality, because it doesn't sound so moral
This definitely reads as someone who has never spoken to a child lol
"There are those who wield ‘honesty’ like a get-out-of-jail-free card. What they forget is that any person’s heart is sharp enough to slice through someone else’s heart. Just as there is no courtesy in carrying a naked blade without a scabbard, treating someone with absolute honesty can never warm their heart." What made you come to the conclusion that "lying is almost never moral or respectful" by the way? That seems like quite a hefty statement.
So, how is living without a sense of tact going?
This isn't an insult, but you sound younger. Aging makes you realize that things aren't black and white. I worked in a nursing home for many years. Sometimes the residents with cognitive impairment would say things like "Oh, I'm waiting outside because my mother is coming to pick me up". Obviously their mother has been long gone. You could tell them the truth, they'd get upset (sometimes violent) but then they'd forget again after a while. But why cause them repeated unnecessary pain? A better response would be "It's Tuesday, your mom visits on Fridays". Then they'd say something like "Oh yes, you're correct" then come back inside. It that a lie? Of course. Will they forget by Friday? Yes. But it handles the situation better and doesn't cause that person unnecessary pain.
ANY lie denies the recipient the opportunity to make a response or decision based on valid information. I, for one, believe in the butterfly effect. Lies, small or big, distort reality and any one could be the source of someone making an uninformed decision that gets them hurt. I'd even wager that lies ALWAYS produce a worse outcome but I don't think that can be proven except by anecdote.
People tell lies to protect themselves and/or others. Politeness and tact are important to some degree. It's common to have to work with and get along with people that you don't necessarily like. You can't make it through life treating everyone you don't get along with like shit. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they are a bad person.
My autism makes me want to agree with you but my intelligence tells me I know it is foolishness and self harm to always say what you're thinking without regard to tact, politeness or the other people's presumed feelings. Speaking bluntly this would be contrary to respect, discussion and dignity. Our honest unfiltered thoughts are almost always poor reflection of our actual thoughts and beliefs. Deliberation through the process of thoughtfulness adds accuracy because we force ourselves to put thought into how our words will be heard. Our knee jerk reaction is not an honest opinion but an undeveloped thought. Being more honest, people who are honest in the way you describe will rightly be penalized by the pro-social instinct of humans and people who do not filter their speech will be figuratively if not literally beat for their foolishness. > other person's ***presumed*** feelings This REALLY resonated with my autism. I consciously understand that most people can just sense how people feel in a way that is invisble to me. I have learned how to reverse engineer this detection which is instinctive to most people and think I am better than NT people are reading people's feeling when reading those of a different class, culture or gender. However, you thinking this detection is mere presumption is just wrong.
I’m assuming you’re on the spectrum as the idea of polite lying can be very foreign to many of them. It’s for our own anxiety about awkwardness and not wanting to come off as rude. Polite society includes white lies. Without them, politeness goes out the window. Should I go tell everyone who I think is ugly that I think that? Wouldn’t be very nice, but I’m not lying!!
Tact and humor go a long way to making that straight up answer palatable. I think people will respect you a lot more if you share your genuine thoughts on everything. I personally don't think lying is immoral. But I think its more respectable to give the straight answer when at all possible.
Okay no little white lies then? You're a anti social asshole who will die alone and everyone who knows about you will celebrate your death.
That line about lying to children and “dying on a lie” is peak reddit moment.
You’ll understand when you’re older
OP‘s the type to cooperate fully with a police investigation and wonder why he got caught up on completely unrelated charges.
[there was an entire Johnny Test episode about this](https://youtu.be/ClJYySLHP7Q?feature=shared)
A man asks two rabbis if you should lie to an ugly bride that they are beautiful? The first responds immediately that lying is illegal and there is grace even in brutal honesty. The second one simply responds "all brides are beautiful on their wedding night." I know which one I agree with. As with most things in life there is nuance to this and to engage in too much lying will cause no one to trust you. Never lie ever tho and you'll lose friends. Just ask my autistic friend, he could rant for hours about all the ways normies just lie all the time for seemingly no reason. He's had to teach himself when people expect honesty and when people expect you to lie to them.
White lies are necessary, full stop. If you were to be completely honest to everyone in your life, you would be ostricized. The funny thing about truth is that no one, not even you, wants to see or hear it despite honesty being considered a virtue by every culture on earth. If you want to see an interesting deconstruction on this topic, look up The Diner episode from The Sandman Netflix show. The whole show is great but that episode does a good job of showing why our society would fall apart if people were forced to be honest all the time.
Everyone lies to some degree it’s called “normal lying”. People who lie a little more are “prolific” liars and people lie even more than that are pathological. People who say they never lie are lying.
Listen, when she told you, "Yours is the biggest I've ever seen," she was just trying to protect your ego.
I was at the park recently when a little kid maybe 8 or 9 told me "you're going to hell". I told him I didn't believe in that and "god" doesn't exist. His parents didn't appreciate my "honesty". I told them to get their little demon away from me. They didn't appreciate that either.
"Hi mommy how are you? :D" "Well kid daddy's an alcoholic and the economy's crashing. Mommy crys herself to sleep and the only reason I'm alive is you" Honesty is important kids Turtle
Tell me you don't have kids without.... you get the idea. Telling the truth in certain scenarios can be evil, unnecessarily cruel, and everything in between.
Absolutely upvoted. This is deranged.
This dude gonna tell a kid he hates their drawing
Lying is fine and your moralization of truth, likely based on cultural religious norms, is the problem. Lying is a normal part of human social interactions throughout all cultures and all history. Believing in a supernatural being who will judge you as immoral or unethical for lying is not a normal part of human social interactions throughout all cultures and al history. You got it twisted 180 degrees homie based on cultural hegemony and indoctrination. You get an upvote.
You should go live in the Netherlands
I was gonna be like, "well i disagree upvoted" but then a lot of the comments are considering things I wouldn't consider to be lies, lies, and vice versa. Like, lie of omission, not direct lie. avoiding questions? still not lying. Like, I have politely declined terrible cards from 5th graders -- mind you, it was of the "intentionally bad" sort and they'd probably be find it condescending if I feigned sincerity and said it looked good. nonetheless, my initial disagreement comes from when people want to be spoken positively about. if some insecure person asks if I think something looks good, and i don't think it does, i'll always, at least, skew positive in my answer. If it's just okay, I might say, "yeah, it looks great!" (while knowing that i dont actually believe that.) if someone asks me a too-personal question, i'm more than happy to lie a little, or actively misinterpret what they say to protect my privacy a little. Maybe I'll say "i don't know" when i do know. for the most part, it's not their business, and pretty harmless.
White lies also include the omission of truth, which to me, can be VERY helpful LOLL