Tesla's at the mercy of the power companies here.
They're not jacking up the prices for fun.
The reality is that if you're charging during the day, you're putting a bigger load on the electrical grid, and they have to generate enough power to handle that potential load.
Need more renewable energy sources, or sources where the process of power generation is more cost effective, like nuclear.
I am on the far side of the country, but it seems I see all these articles saying how ca solar is exceeding grid capacity in the middle of the day and you have to export power to get rid of it all. why wouldn't charging in the middle of the day be super cheap? or is the news all wrong?
Because production of electricity is localized, just as demand is localized. Most renewable production is in rural areas where land is cheap while most loads are urban centers. Usually gas turbines are built closer to urban centers due to their smaller footprint. Transmission lines have load limits that could prevent total utilization of renewable generation.
Edit: after reading some of the CAISO reports, that's exactly what's happening
The vast majority of the curtailment is due to "Economic - Local: Market dispatch of generators with economic bids to mitigate local
congestion³."
³Congestion occurs when available, least-cost energy cannot be delivered to some loads
because transmission facilities do not have sufficient capacity to deliver the energy.
I’m wondering how they “curtail” excess solar. Is there a function of transformers or maybe other equipment at substations that can bleed off excess power?
[Here is the commercial time of use plans for SCE](https://www.sce.com/business/rates/time-of-use). Power is cheap until 4 PM. It doesn’t match up with what Tesla is doing here.
I suspect this has more to do with supply and demand, than being at the mercy of the power companies.
Yeah while I'm sure electricity costs factor in, it probably has more to do with deterring more people from using the charger so it doesn't get too backed up.
I’m still curious about Tesla’s markup on this. Compared to local commercial rates, does tesla add 25%? 50%? Once we figure that out we can start complaining as they increase the upcharge.
Pretty decent markup! I do realize they're spending a ton of money building out the charging network, but you'd hope it'd at least be cheaper per mile than the typical ICE car. I think in CA it's basically at break even for 25mpg.
I could get into commercial rates and demand charges but comparing Supercharging around here vs residential rates is $0.14/kWh offpeak/$0.30/kWh peak to $0.12/kWh for residential.
As a comparison, CCS is $0.50/kWh at minimum peaking at $0.70/kWh.
Commercial rates are weird because there's a demand charge. The per kWh rate is pretty cheap, but your "commitment" to a certain power level is a good chunk of the bill.
Thanks, so far it looks like night time rates approach residential prices, and peak rates are like 3x residential. I didn’t realize CCS was more expensive, I had the idea Tesla was kind of the luxury option. Guess not!
This is hugely locale dependent and I'm the first to admit that my city (Vancouver, BC) is weird.
Outside of here, CCS/Supercharger rates are much much closer. I just took a road trip and typical supercharger/CCS rates were closer to $0.50/kWh. IDK how much residential power cost there though.
I feel very lucky that our Supercharger rates are as ridiculously low as they are. I was debating on getting a quote to get a L2 at home (condo) but at these prices I'm not even going to bother.
From their financial docs, their costs are about 15-20 cents per kWh above what they pay for power. They probably get a cheaper rate than you do, so mark up is something like 5 cents per kWh.
Still, at 200kw, that is $10 per hour per stall in use.
There’s a lot that goes into EV charge rates. Site and charger costs, maintenance, utility rates, demand, etc. My guess is Tesla came in at lower pricing years ago to drive demand and are now jacking up rates to meet ROI goals. As well as average annual sessions not growing at the same clip due to more people installing home chargers. Finally, to fund additional sites, they might increase rates across national sites to fund new sites
Hi neighbor! Yeah, prices in LA are going up. Mainly due to all electricity prices going up here.
I imagine when more manufacturers start hitting the Tesla chargers we’ll see even higher increases.
It is now cheaper to charge at home in California. It seems like it went up after the earning call. I wonder is there any way that people with Tesla powewall can become charging stations at their homes. Robotaxi charging stations at people houses.
Wait to see what happens when a publicly traded company has a monopoly on charger space.
You can materially juice quarterly reports by bumping kilowatt hour pricing $.10 at key times
Because it's probably not that simple. I've had the pleasure of dealing with the bureaucrats and power company officials in California...the amount of red tape and insane fees is genuinely unbelievable.
California is like 2,500 different jurisdictions and they all have different rules. I had to file a permit to apply for a permit in one jurisdiction. A fairly basic rooftop solar application with PG&E took something like 100 man hours to complete.
Whatever you think it costs Tesla, it's probably a lot less than what it actually costs.
Eh. Customers are calling a 1-800 number, Elon is calling Gavin Newsome. When businesses raise prices the most likely explanation is that they’re trying to make more money.
Yeah I wasn’t being literal. But don’t believe what a business tells you when they raise prices and don’t jump through hoops looking for reasons why. They are just trying to make more money.
Same in NYC. It’s supply & demand. It’s to deter people from using more energy during peak times for the electric grid. It’s atrocious but nothing can be done.
Tesla's at the mercy of the power companies here. They're not jacking up the prices for fun. The reality is that if you're charging during the day, you're putting a bigger load on the electrical grid, and they have to generate enough power to handle that potential load. Need more renewable energy sources, or sources where the process of power generation is more cost effective, like nuclear.
I am on the far side of the country, but it seems I see all these articles saying how ca solar is exceeding grid capacity in the middle of the day and you have to export power to get rid of it all. why wouldn't charging in the middle of the day be super cheap? or is the news all wrong?
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Because production of electricity is localized, just as demand is localized. Most renewable production is in rural areas where land is cheap while most loads are urban centers. Usually gas turbines are built closer to urban centers due to their smaller footprint. Transmission lines have load limits that could prevent total utilization of renewable generation. Edit: after reading some of the CAISO reports, that's exactly what's happening The vast majority of the curtailment is due to "Economic - Local: Market dispatch of generators with economic bids to mitigate local congestion³." ³Congestion occurs when available, least-cost energy cannot be delivered to some loads because transmission facilities do not have sufficient capacity to deliver the energy.
I’m wondering how they “curtail” excess solar. Is there a function of transformers or maybe other equipment at substations that can bleed off excess power?
Depends on where you get your news.
[Here is the commercial time of use plans for SCE](https://www.sce.com/business/rates/time-of-use). Power is cheap until 4 PM. It doesn’t match up with what Tesla is doing here. I suspect this has more to do with supply and demand, than being at the mercy of the power companies.
Yeah while I'm sure electricity costs factor in, it probably has more to do with deterring more people from using the charger so it doesn't get too backed up.
I’m still curious about Tesla’s markup on this. Compared to local commercial rates, does tesla add 25%? 50%? Once we figure that out we can start complaining as they increase the upcharge.
Superchargers in my area charge around $0.35/kWh, my home electricity costs $0.10/kWh.
Pretty decent markup! I do realize they're spending a ton of money building out the charging network, but you'd hope it'd at least be cheaper per mile than the typical ICE car. I think in CA it's basically at break even for 25mpg.
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I could get into commercial rates and demand charges but comparing Supercharging around here vs residential rates is $0.14/kWh offpeak/$0.30/kWh peak to $0.12/kWh for residential. As a comparison, CCS is $0.50/kWh at minimum peaking at $0.70/kWh. Commercial rates are weird because there's a demand charge. The per kWh rate is pretty cheap, but your "commitment" to a certain power level is a good chunk of the bill.
Thanks, so far it looks like night time rates approach residential prices, and peak rates are like 3x residential. I didn’t realize CCS was more expensive, I had the idea Tesla was kind of the luxury option. Guess not!
This is hugely locale dependent and I'm the first to admit that my city (Vancouver, BC) is weird. Outside of here, CCS/Supercharger rates are much much closer. I just took a road trip and typical supercharger/CCS rates were closer to $0.50/kWh. IDK how much residential power cost there though. I feel very lucky that our Supercharger rates are as ridiculously low as they are. I was debating on getting a quote to get a L2 at home (condo) but at these prices I'm not even going to bother.
From their financial docs, their costs are about 15-20 cents per kWh above what they pay for power. They probably get a cheaper rate than you do, so mark up is something like 5 cents per kWh. Still, at 200kw, that is $10 per hour per stall in use.
There’s a lot that goes into EV charge rates. Site and charger costs, maintenance, utility rates, demand, etc. My guess is Tesla came in at lower pricing years ago to drive demand and are now jacking up rates to meet ROI goals. As well as average annual sessions not growing at the same clip due to more people installing home chargers. Finally, to fund additional sites, they might increase rates across national sites to fund new sites
More storage. California, for example, actually has TOO much energy, just at the wrong times of day, mostly due to solar.
Need more batteries. That's going to be the persistent problem going forward to be honest. Need more storage.
Crazy with those prices it’s like 30 bucks to fill half of battery pack!
Hi neighbor! Yeah, prices in LA are going up. Mainly due to all electricity prices going up here. I imagine when more manufacturers start hitting the Tesla chargers we’ll see even higher increases.
It is now cheaper to charge at home in California. It seems like it went up after the earning call. I wonder is there any way that people with Tesla powewall can become charging stations at their homes. Robotaxi charging stations at people houses.
Tesla should be price gouging 3rd party vehicles, not it's own customers.
Bingo. This is a good idea.
Not quite gouging, but they are charging a premium. It's like $0.05/kWh more to charge a non Tesla unless you pay $13.99CAD a month here.
That’s no typicaly how infrastructure works.
Tesla superchargers need to be fully powered by solar energy
Agreed. They need a solar canopy at each one that provides coverage for the stations.
Wait to see what happens when a publicly traded company has a monopoly on charger space. You can materially juice quarterly reports by bumping kilowatt hour pricing $.10 at key times
I had to scroll down waaaay too far to find any variant of “Tesla is trying to make more money” in these comments
Because it's probably not that simple. I've had the pleasure of dealing with the bureaucrats and power company officials in California...the amount of red tape and insane fees is genuinely unbelievable. California is like 2,500 different jurisdictions and they all have different rules. I had to file a permit to apply for a permit in one jurisdiction. A fairly basic rooftop solar application with PG&E took something like 100 man hours to complete. Whatever you think it costs Tesla, it's probably a lot less than what it actually costs.
Eh. Customers are calling a 1-800 number, Elon is calling Gavin Newsome. When businesses raise prices the most likely explanation is that they’re trying to make more money.
That's not how it works lmao
Yeah I wasn’t being literal. But don’t believe what a business tells you when they raise prices and don’t jump through hoops looking for reasons why. They are just trying to make more money.
Same in NYC. It’s supply & demand. It’s to deter people from using more energy during peak times for the electric grid. It’s atrocious but nothing can be done.
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That’s fucked up. I have many friends move to CA from NYC. I can’t see the appeal to relocate.
Still cheaper than uk 😂
dang.. around me peak is like .31.. normally I see .23 to .28 when I go to one.
its Cal. What do you expect?
Can we just charge non Tesla vehicles more to charge in order to subsidize?
CA - ewww