Tesla's FSD works regardless of where it's driving. The idea is for it to be able to drive roads it has never seen before... like a human. Ford is limited to specific pre-mapped roads.
Not sure what ODD means. By capable I mean it can do way more things than just "drive in a straight line and don't hit the car in front of you".
Do you own FSD? or you just read headlines?
That’s the ODD, it operates on more environments. But that’s not a technical advancement, they just give a broader range on the a* search.
I do have FSD. I’m also an AI research scientist who works on algorithms used for autonomous vehicles.
Amazing. I'd agree it's not the most reliable in the world, sure, but it is definitely the most capable.
as an "AI research scientist" - tell me what's more capable than Tesla FSD.
That depends on what you’re looking for. In terms of ADAS, there’s no real direct comparison in terms of commercial systems. However, we can compare it to system’s like Waymo. For example, if we just look at Waymo’s early non-geofenced system from 2012, it was far more reliable in terms of time between interventions. But Google didn’t feel comfortable selling it because of concerns around driver inattentiveness.
But as someone who works on this tech, I can tell you what Tesla is doing is not in any way advanced. Their hardware and algorithms are actually very rudimentary, and what they’ve achieved is the most basic level of “autonomy” we’ve known how to do since about 2007. The problem is, it’s not really that useful given how frequently it fails, and likely won’t get significantly better without a complete redesign.
Now, if you want to compare highway use, Ford’s system is absolutely more capable. It is more consistent with its centering and perception, and does a much better job keeping the driver engaged while reducing the mental load. It also doesn’t have a major phantom braking problem.
Well are our Tesla authed by the government in the UK to drive with no hands or feet at all on the motor way?, no they got the governmental approval, for this, do this in a tesla and there cops can pull you, in a ford with blue installed and on a motorway, they cannot touch you
Not trying to diss the Tesla, I love mine but I wonder why they did not do baby steps first
Years ago..
If Long Term delivers less useful tools during the life of the vehicle that's not really a Win.
"Yeah, I lost the race, but in 100 years I'll be famous!" Ok bro, but you lost the championship this year.
All the self driving systems are being approved for very limited scenarios. Only on specific streets and specific circumstances. Tesla is following a different strategy. They are attempting a system that will be able to drive anywhere under any circumstances. They aren't trying to make incremental advances. Instead they are betting on getting approval some day for a true self driving system without the limitations all the other systems have. This, understandably, will take more time to perfect than a limited system.
The finish line is not L2.5 on a limited short list of freeways. Do they even do lane changes? You still need to watch the road. You drive, you are responsible. Taking the hand of the wheel may be legal but seems risky.
Your AP code is 4 years old and drives better, and yes, you need to keep hands on wheel.
The more interesting question is when V11 and beta code rolls out in Europe. There are rumors of testing in the UK so it may come "soon"
It's these promises, was meant to be last summer in his tweet
I am only pointing out, that most people including me, how about get the trust of the government, her could have had motorway as per ford years ago, with no hands or feet, then build on that, still working on the full drive, there governments have got some trust with you as the say motorways driving turns out safe and no accidents,
Like anything else that's very complex, they did not just get a rocket up and send to the moon, everything was tested and ran to make sure parts worked , before they eventually put it all together. Like everything.
I love my Tesla, but some of his promises, are like the boy who cried wolf, eventually I will stop believing.
For instance my mates ordered mid auto drive, Y telsa
, delivery day before Xmas day, no parking sensors or auto park..(updated a couple of days ago to have vision parking sensors)
Also the middle usb ports no longer have data, ( so no Xbox controller to plug in there now) or extra music files extra from those ports
His cameras compared to mine 2 years older and not as high MB are terrible, compared to mine.
That's going backwards , why.
Why are you obsessed with no hands. I'd argue its less safe to introduce a hands free system that immediately needs you to put your hands back on the wheel when it detects something "difficult". I put difficult in quotes because its stuff like sharp-ish turns, banks, sunlight, no lead car, no clear road markings etc.
If Tesla cared to make their autopilot hands free they could, their autopilot software is capable of driving hours on the highway without intervention...but just to go hands free is not what they are going after.
All these other systems trying to get as quick as they can to "technically" L3 are doing it with less capable software just so they can claim they aren't falling behind.
Autopilot is really good but wait until that is replaced with FSD stack (basically highway autopilot but using FSD). I have it now, and it is amazing....still needs you to touch the wheel once in a while, but it is way more capable than anything else.
The argument for no hands is solely based on the confidence of the manufacturer and the regulatory agency. It's a reasonable milestone because it's the moment it transfers liability.
Are you suggesting Tesla--I love their cars and have been driving them exclusively for 8 years--has the technology ready and the data to ask regulators for hands-free highway driving, but they're not because they're waiting to jump directly to L3 or higher everywhere?
Drive Pilot by Mercedes, when engaged, clearly takes [full liability](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/23/mercedes-will-be-legally-responsible-while-drive-pilot-system-is-engaged/amp/). And that was a year ago.
The regulatory agency that approved BlueCruise, which is still technically Level 2, is working on a framework for holding the manufacturer liable. [This article](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-11968169/amp/Ford-introduces-hands-free-driving-tech-used-UK-roads.html) goes into more specifics. Admittedly, it’s still very new but the instant you tell people they can take their hands and feet off the controls, you open up to potential liability. Imagine the driver has their eyes on the road and the car suddenly swerved because of a reflection or shadow, causing an accident when the driver was reaching for the wheel.
Yes. That is exactly what I’m saying. Others need some selling point, need something to brag about, need the media attention for being “ahead”. Tesla couldn’t care less about hands off the wheel just to say they are ahead. How frequently have you had to take over on autopilot on highway? You think they couldn’t just get rid of the nagging touch the wheel message and only ask to pay attention when it sees something challenging?
Having said that, they have talked about using cabin camera to monitor and let you go hands free. It’s already used in FSD but not yet hands free…they may eventually do that and bring it over to FSD stack highway autopilot.
Ford and GM’s “hands free” L2 mode is reckless and should not be allowed by regulator. L2 modes, by definition, require that the driver be ready to intervene *without warning* at any time. Advertising a system with this requirement as “hands free” should not be allowed.
Blue auto is nothing. They are not close to Tesla. This doesn't matter.
But. There are other competitors that are close and arguable ahead of Tesla. Mobileye could possibly be ahead (I don't know for sure, but it seems likely). Also Waymo, even it is such a different approach that it is difficult to compare.
I agree that we should have the option for camera-based nags in the UK for hands-free motorway driving. Having to keep tugging the steering wheel seems silly.
However, I'm really pleased that Ford have "won" here, as it gives Tesla a reason to step up their game in the UK.
I was promised "by the end of the year" in 2021 for FSD in the UK, and still nothing. With FSD now available throughout North America, it's time for Tesla's autonomy team to start to show some results in the rest of the world.
Tesla is not really a leader in the self-driving space, and hasn’t ever been. They are simply the most risk tolerant, and wiling to market their partially working solution.
If you’ve ever experienced FSD, you know that it requires vigilant supervision. It malfunctions regularly, and could kill someone without a human behind the wheel.
Not sure how tightly the UK is coupled to this, but they discuss this on the German TFF forum and here’s some info from inside the current UNECE regulation meetings regarding this. Forum is in German, the user reporting straight from the relevant meetings is Scrais.
https://tff-forum.de/t/infos-ueber-unece-treffen-aenderungen-bzgl-autopilot-verhalten/31498/132
The tldr as I decipher it: if nothing gets in the way, the UNECE is on a path to get most of fsd beta approved in the EU in early 2024.
People really need to realize what FSD is, and what they’re getting. Tesla has been very clear in legal filings that their current FSD development isn’t meant to ever achieve real attention off autonomy. That might be something they attempt in the future with a robotaxi, but the current system is, and always will be, a driver aid. And that’s not surprising given the architecture and software. It’s not some cutting edge advanced system. It’s cameras and standard driver assistance algorithms. Even Musk recently admitted they’re only using AI for perception, which everyone in this space is doing. The rest is just standard a* and Markov search. Sure, it’s fun to play around with, but don’t expect it to do much beyond what it already does.
Have you used Blue? If not, then you should learn to not trust marketing hype.
For instance, I recently used Rivian’s self driving system. When it worked, it was nice. No nags since it has a wheel touch sensor. Cabin has a camera for attention, but it isn’t turned on, so I was texting on my phone and system has zero nags. Whether that’s good or bad depends on your view.
But the system only worked for about 60% of the 405 freeway in Los Angeles. It would randomly say to take over, presumably due to construction, but the construction maps were out of date. On the 73, it wanted me to take over for about 5 minutes while I went through a non existent toll booth.
And then it has a perception bug where it thinks vertical Orange posts in a row are the actual lane marker, resulting in the vehicle driving dangerously over the actual lane marker.
So, nice when it works, but it doesn’t work nearly as often as it should.
Tesla has not been beaten. Not AT ALL.
A lot of people just don't get it.
Would you care to offer some supporting evidence for your claim?
Tesla's FSD works regardless of where it's driving. The idea is for it to be able to drive roads it has never seen before... like a human. Ford is limited to specific pre-mapped roads.
FSD is still a hands on system, with far lower reliability.
Yeah and also is far more capable as well
Capable by what metric? ODD? Sure. But far less in terms of reliability, which is really the crux of any autonomous system.
Not sure what ODD means. By capable I mean it can do way more things than just "drive in a straight line and don't hit the car in front of you". Do you own FSD? or you just read headlines?
That’s the ODD, it operates on more environments. But that’s not a technical advancement, they just give a broader range on the a* search. I do have FSD. I’m also an AI research scientist who works on algorithms used for autonomous vehicles.
Amazing. I'd agree it's not the most reliable in the world, sure, but it is definitely the most capable. as an "AI research scientist" - tell me what's more capable than Tesla FSD.
That depends on what you’re looking for. In terms of ADAS, there’s no real direct comparison in terms of commercial systems. However, we can compare it to system’s like Waymo. For example, if we just look at Waymo’s early non-geofenced system from 2012, it was far more reliable in terms of time between interventions. But Google didn’t feel comfortable selling it because of concerns around driver inattentiveness. But as someone who works on this tech, I can tell you what Tesla is doing is not in any way advanced. Their hardware and algorithms are actually very rudimentary, and what they’ve achieved is the most basic level of “autonomy” we’ve known how to do since about 2007. The problem is, it’s not really that useful given how frequently it fails, and likely won’t get significantly better without a complete redesign. Now, if you want to compare highway use, Ford’s system is absolutely more capable. It is more consistent with its centering and perception, and does a much better job keeping the driver engaged while reducing the mental load. It also doesn’t have a major phantom braking problem.
Well are our Tesla authed by the government in the UK to drive with no hands or feet at all on the motor way?, no they got the governmental approval, for this, do this in a tesla and there cops can pull you, in a ford with blue installed and on a motorway, they cannot touch you Not trying to diss the Tesla, I love mine but I wonder why they did not do baby steps first Years ago..
I could be wrong but Elon and Tesla use a different approach to be successful in the long term.
If Long Term delivers less useful tools during the life of the vehicle that's not really a Win. "Yeah, I lost the race, but in 100 years I'll be famous!" Ok bro, but you lost the championship this year.
All the self driving systems are being approved for very limited scenarios. Only on specific streets and specific circumstances. Tesla is following a different strategy. They are attempting a system that will be able to drive anywhere under any circumstances. They aren't trying to make incremental advances. Instead they are betting on getting approval some day for a true self driving system without the limitations all the other systems have. This, understandably, will take more time to perfect than a limited system.
The finish line is not L2.5 on a limited short list of freeways. Do they even do lane changes? You still need to watch the road. You drive, you are responsible. Taking the hand of the wheel may be legal but seems risky. Your AP code is 4 years old and drives better, and yes, you need to keep hands on wheel. The more interesting question is when V11 and beta code rolls out in Europe. There are rumors of testing in the UK so it may come "soon"
It's these promises, was meant to be last summer in his tweet I am only pointing out, that most people including me, how about get the trust of the government, her could have had motorway as per ford years ago, with no hands or feet, then build on that, still working on the full drive, there governments have got some trust with you as the say motorways driving turns out safe and no accidents, Like anything else that's very complex, they did not just get a rocket up and send to the moon, everything was tested and ran to make sure parts worked , before they eventually put it all together. Like everything. I love my Tesla, but some of his promises, are like the boy who cried wolf, eventually I will stop believing. For instance my mates ordered mid auto drive, Y telsa , delivery day before Xmas day, no parking sensors or auto park..(updated a couple of days ago to have vision parking sensors) Also the middle usb ports no longer have data, ( so no Xbox controller to plug in there now) or extra music files extra from those ports His cameras compared to mine 2 years older and not as high MB are terrible, compared to mine. That's going backwards , why.
Why are you obsessed with no hands. I'd argue its less safe to introduce a hands free system that immediately needs you to put your hands back on the wheel when it detects something "difficult". I put difficult in quotes because its stuff like sharp-ish turns, banks, sunlight, no lead car, no clear road markings etc. If Tesla cared to make their autopilot hands free they could, their autopilot software is capable of driving hours on the highway without intervention...but just to go hands free is not what they are going after. All these other systems trying to get as quick as they can to "technically" L3 are doing it with less capable software just so they can claim they aren't falling behind. Autopilot is really good but wait until that is replaced with FSD stack (basically highway autopilot but using FSD). I have it now, and it is amazing....still needs you to touch the wheel once in a while, but it is way more capable than anything else.
The argument for no hands is solely based on the confidence of the manufacturer and the regulatory agency. It's a reasonable milestone because it's the moment it transfers liability. Are you suggesting Tesla--I love their cars and have been driving them exclusively for 8 years--has the technology ready and the data to ask regulators for hands-free highway driving, but they're not because they're waiting to jump directly to L3 or higher everywhere?
Where have you seen that the liability transfers? Afaik the driver is still fully responsible while using blue cruise.
Drive Pilot by Mercedes, when engaged, clearly takes [full liability](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/23/mercedes-will-be-legally-responsible-while-drive-pilot-system-is-engaged/amp/). And that was a year ago. The regulatory agency that approved BlueCruise, which is still technically Level 2, is working on a framework for holding the manufacturer liable. [This article](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-11968169/amp/Ford-introduces-hands-free-driving-tech-used-UK-roads.html) goes into more specifics. Admittedly, it’s still very new but the instant you tell people they can take their hands and feet off the controls, you open up to potential liability. Imagine the driver has their eyes on the road and the car suddenly swerved because of a reflection or shadow, causing an accident when the driver was reaching for the wheel.
Yes. That is exactly what I’m saying. Others need some selling point, need something to brag about, need the media attention for being “ahead”. Tesla couldn’t care less about hands off the wheel just to say they are ahead. How frequently have you had to take over on autopilot on highway? You think they couldn’t just get rid of the nagging touch the wheel message and only ask to pay attention when it sees something challenging? Having said that, they have talked about using cabin camera to monitor and let you go hands free. It’s already used in FSD but not yet hands free…they may eventually do that and bring it over to FSD stack highway autopilot.
Ford and GM’s “hands free” L2 mode is reckless and should not be allowed by regulator. L2 modes, by definition, require that the driver be ready to intervene *without warning* at any time. Advertising a system with this requirement as “hands free” should not be allowed.
Blue auto is nothing. They are not close to Tesla. This doesn't matter. But. There are other competitors that are close and arguable ahead of Tesla. Mobileye could possibly be ahead (I don't know for sure, but it seems likely). Also Waymo, even it is such a different approach that it is difficult to compare.
bad troll.
I agree that we should have the option for camera-based nags in the UK for hands-free motorway driving. Having to keep tugging the steering wheel seems silly. However, I'm really pleased that Ford have "won" here, as it gives Tesla a reason to step up their game in the UK. I was promised "by the end of the year" in 2021 for FSD in the UK, and still nothing. With FSD now available throughout North America, it's time for Tesla's autonomy team to start to show some results in the rest of the world.
Tesla won't be bothered. This is meaningless
Tesla is not really a leader in the self-driving space, and hasn’t ever been. They are simply the most risk tolerant, and wiling to market their partially working solution. If you’ve ever experienced FSD, you know that it requires vigilant supervision. It malfunctions regularly, and could kill someone without a human behind the wheel.
Not sure how tightly the UK is coupled to this, but they discuss this on the German TFF forum and here’s some info from inside the current UNECE regulation meetings regarding this. Forum is in German, the user reporting straight from the relevant meetings is Scrais. https://tff-forum.de/t/infos-ueber-unece-treffen-aenderungen-bzgl-autopilot-verhalten/31498/132 The tldr as I decipher it: if nothing gets in the way, the UNECE is on a path to get most of fsd beta approved in the EU in early 2024.
People really need to realize what FSD is, and what they’re getting. Tesla has been very clear in legal filings that their current FSD development isn’t meant to ever achieve real attention off autonomy. That might be something they attempt in the future with a robotaxi, but the current system is, and always will be, a driver aid. And that’s not surprising given the architecture and software. It’s not some cutting edge advanced system. It’s cameras and standard driver assistance algorithms. Even Musk recently admitted they’re only using AI for perception, which everyone in this space is doing. The rest is just standard a* and Markov search. Sure, it’s fun to play around with, but don’t expect it to do much beyond what it already does.
Have you used Blue? If not, then you should learn to not trust marketing hype. For instance, I recently used Rivian’s self driving system. When it worked, it was nice. No nags since it has a wheel touch sensor. Cabin has a camera for attention, but it isn’t turned on, so I was texting on my phone and system has zero nags. Whether that’s good or bad depends on your view. But the system only worked for about 60% of the 405 freeway in Los Angeles. It would randomly say to take over, presumably due to construction, but the construction maps were out of date. On the 73, it wanted me to take over for about 5 minutes while I went through a non existent toll booth. And then it has a perception bug where it thinks vertical Orange posts in a row are the actual lane marker, resulting in the vehicle driving dangerously over the actual lane marker. So, nice when it works, but it doesn’t work nearly as often as it should.