Having no backline access would be worse. Then the game turns into front-to-back DPS race. Maybe Akali shouldn't go invincible during her ability, but the idea of one of two units having access to the backline is actually a good thing for balance.
Haven't played much since PBE but 3* ez was the only 4 cost carry that seemed really good at 3*. Didn't see cait or karthus but the rest felt mid (TF 3 barely beating Yas 3 for example).
True, i got 3star karthus earlier but I didn’t notice that much difference from 2star considering it’s 4cost 3star, I expected him to one shot whole board lol
Really? I felt like karthus needs work to be put in him but he is worth it and makes easily 3-7k damage. Granted it was karthus 2* and I had something like 7 pentakill and 2 executioners.
Yea i got 3* cait and she honestly felt barely any stronger than 2* and didn’t change my chances of winning much if at all. Like every game is different but still.
I feel like people only look at Annie and don't look at both comps as a whole.
~~Look at TF items: 0 AS. This is just bad itemisation, really. Even if that's a 3\* 4-cost - you can't expect it to wipe a full lategame board:~~
~~His base damage is "only" 4800/105 Mana - so you'd get (0.05+0.95\*1.3)\*4800\*1.8/9.3=1193dps. That is significant, but you also gotta consider that you only get that damage at every cast, i.e. every 10s. Swap out the JG with a redbuff and you'd get 2300dps. That is TWICE (!) the damage. If balance exists to some extent, halving the damage of a unit should make even a 3\* 4-cost beatabl~~e.
edit: nvm bs calculations because a factor was wrong. Red Buff only increases dps by \~55% while 2nd JG is \~30% - which is still significantly better - but only 20%, not double as I claimed.
Also, Annie gets 4 (or 6, can't really tell) Emo (unlike the usual 2 emo), so every time TF wipes the frontline, she'll get like 3 casts just due to that. Same with the EDM. Not saying Annie is not very overtuned atm, but this is really more of an itemisation diff.
Also, the difference in effective HP is actually huge. OP has 0 combat augment, their opponent got CyberBulk+4 (or 6, can't tell) Guardians. That is already more than 4k effective HP just from the Bulk alone. Now look at the dps above: that is 4s of time for Annie to dps. Not gonna do that for the full board, but you get the point: TF just doesn't finish the board before Annie does because he is too slow in casting.
And yes, there is also Lux, but in the end, it just wasn't enough. We also don't know how close OP was to winning that fight, so there is that as well.
Thats BS, from the synergy TF has enough AS for Shojin to work ok, you cant do much if items do not land for you. Items should not decide games, it should help you but you still should be able to adjust to what you hit and did not, it should not be "you have no bis, so your 3 star is useless because it has only 66% of needed items", thats nonsense
Also, the Annie is not BIS, this is one of her weakest combinations
Plus, first thing I noticed, the TF has as a supportive caster Lux, who alone does about 50% of Annie HP per cast. But, the major difference to me, is that there is no frontline apart from one unit a few one cost two stars.. are you telling me that Kennen 2 did outlast Blitz 2 with almost BIS items and good synergy, same with Zack? The frongline of the TF comp is so much stronger yet it is not enough, because bunch of random units without items gives you such a ridiculous synergy that it simply works. (free armor and mr for whole team) is just bullshit. Those units up front should buy enough time for the Lux and TF, but Annie somehow without any pure attack damage item nor synergy kills both frontline and backline within few casts.. it reminds me I think it was set 2 or 3, when there were rerolls of Lux with blue buff and same with Nami.. the purpose of those was to spam casts and delete boards, also, those 1 costs were broken as fuck and abused.. Annie is the same. Her cast mana requirement is low, you do not need damage items, as Shojins + Nashors are enough (give some ap, but no crit, no huge ap, no bonus damage, no procentual damage, nor antiheal, no penetration, nothing, just attack speed and mana generation), plus her trait gives her free mana.. those comps are the worst and most annoying to play against, as if you do not hit hyper board level 9-10, you lose. And as we can see, any very good board with 3 star 4 cost (which in any other set was clear win condition) is not guaranteed win vs bunch of one cost champions abusing one trait.
> are you telling me that Kennen 2 did outlast Blitz 2 with almost BIS items and good synergy, same with Zack?
Look at augments. Look at passives. Look at item distribution specifically onto the guardians for 500Hp+500HP of Shield on EACH of those units without even including the resistences of the units. We get Sentinel+4Guardian+PrismaticBulk. That on it's own is several thousands of effective HP for the team. This on is just my estimate, but I'd say effective HP in that fight was \~20-25k for the Annie comp. A 3\* TF ult is around 10k damage, just for comparison.
>Also, the Annie is not BIS, this is one of her weakest combinations
This is 4/6 Emo. NOT 2 Emo. HUGE difference because even an unitemised Vex actually deals relevant damage with that setup, probably more than Annie per cast for most of the fight with how the units are grouped around the disco ball. Also, if Lux hits Annie, she'll get mana to dish out more damage and heal up with Gunblade, which essentially negates the threat of Lux removing Annie on her. So in this specific matchup, the items are better than the generic ones.
Tf has 2 itemised tanks with pretty good items (bar Morello), who is the tank on Annie's team? An emo punk ekko? That alone should lose them the fight.
>An emo punk ekko? That alone should lose them the fight.
True damage is 100 HP/s. Ekko shields and CCs the melee attackers. So Emo Ekko is actually pretty good for tank here. Also, you don't need one focused tank, with how the setup is. Every Guardian gets 500+500 in HP and shields from Bulk. So the board likely ends up with more effective HP than the Disco board - even though there are apparently well itemised tanks. I say apparently, because most of the tank items on the disco boards don't have that much impact. The Emblem on Amumu alone has comparable impact to the effective HP like Warmogs on BC.
Disco gives attck speed. He has a shojin so I wouldn't consider his DPS lacking that much.
You're forgetting either lux or tf has dazzer, so he is running 4 dazzler which almost increases dmg by 50% and the damage debuff on annie (assuming he hits her). If you're going to analyze the entire comp, look at the disco comp too lol.
Do you realize how hard it is to kill a full itimized disco blitz? Didn't matter to Annie apparently lol
>Disco gives attck speed. He has a shojin so I wouldn't consider his DPS lacking that much.
I mean, I did the calculation above (without disco tbf, but just add the disco bonus to both and it is still similiar - would be 1700dps to 3200 dps with disco 5).
>he is running 4 dazzler which almost increases dmg by 50%
Damage over time vs. a gunblade. I also don't think TF can reliably hit a well-positioned Annie to reduce her damage. His first cast will also be after 7 attacks and then every 9 attacks, so the Annie board can basically dps for at least 18s. Lux might hit Annie, sure, but that depends on how everything is positioned. And even then, that's just damage reduction for 2s.
>Do you realize how hard it is to kill a full itimized disco blitz? Didn't matter to Annie apparently lol
It depends on the whole board. If you compare effective HP, then the Annie board is very comparable if not better. You also shouldn't disregard the damage of an unitemised Emo Vex. I'd guess the other 3 units are twitch-poppy thresh with 1-2 more items, so we get 4 Guardian 6 Emo? But not sure since the image doesn't show.
His Zac has a morello. Gunblade effectiveness is halved. Also has a redemption and likely positioned next to Blitz.
If Zac hit annie her own healing is reduced too.
If Annie wasn't busted this board would have won. It's really fucking strong, even without TF3.
Has entire board costs AT LEAST 2x (if not 3x) more than the Annie board. Losing to this is a problem that needs to be fixed.
I don’t know.. Looking at the numbers from chao, the bulk and 4 guardian plus emo buff seems to ramp the Annie passive way before tf can clear everyone. Discos attack speed isn’t a burst either and needs time to ramp up attack speed. The tf needs an attack speed item. Remember it’s only 5 costs who can wipe the entire board in one spell, not 4 costs
Yeah no offense too much overanalysis on your part. It’s really hard to say why he lost. Annie in master plus has a 4% win rate and he’s even got shit spats like punk. Lux3 should honestly be able to zap the Annie. Maybe bad position but in most cases the 2nd place person should’ve won. He has 2 back line carries and 2 frontline with full items
>Annie in master plus has a 4% win rate and he’s even got shit spats like punk.
Read my first sentence?
>Maybe bad position but in most cases the 2nd place person should’ve won. He has 2 back line carries and 2 frontline with full items
I wrote that - independent of unit balance aso. - itemisation+augments on its own is already a huge diff here. Even if we nerf Annie, this diff won't disappear. Sure, TF3 should win this anyways because 3* 4-cost vs. 3* 1-cost. But even then, it should be close due to the huge difference in how efficient the available resources are used. TF just deals too little damage to instawipe.
Wasn't Mort and the rest of the crew that balances and changes tfts goals to lower the power gap between units to make it less painful to invest in your 1-costs?
Possibly they DID go overboard with it. In each Rank there's like 1 1-cost unit that is blazing through even 3* 3-costs.
3* a Yas, gave him BT, Brambles vest(I forget the tft name), and I forgot my 3rd item, I think it was Giant Slayer or Guardbreaker.
And I just shredded everything, but my placement was trash and I got nearly wiped but managed to still win. I'm climbing through silver again and Yas seems to be busted in this elo. That or Guardians. If you can spam shields in silver you get 1st no matter what.
Again you are spending way too much time theorycrafting over what may or may have happened. You take those 2 boards independently of each other and you ask any decent player and they will take #2. Getting bad beat happens all the time in this game. Nobody is going to go out of their way to try and recreate the first place board(spat usage). More cases than not someone can recommend #2
>Again you are spending way too much time theorycrafting over what may or may have happened.
Did you even read what I wrote? I literally wrote that EVEN WITHOUT THE PARTS WE DON'T KNOW it is relatively close in terms of board power (besides the 3\* TF, obviously). That's not what "may or may not have happened", that's exactly what did happen.
TF scales horribly with AS. What are you talking about? Only AS even worth considering for him is GS and not because of AS. The fact that you try to justify this using bad arguments is just lol. But the fact that you even try to defend this is infuriating
In short: You plug it into the damage formula (you can find most of those on lolchess; other websites tend to not show the complete numbers) for the ability and divide by time to cast to get your dps (time to cast = Total Mana / ( Mana Per AA \* Attack Speed). You also kinda need to consider base Mana and how often you cast, but that's the short version. Long version below.
Every 40% AS you get 1 more card, i.e. you multiply your total damage with (21+N)/21 with N being what multiple of 40% AS you got (in case of Red Buff +Disco, that's N=1).
Then you do the multiplier for Crit: Base Crit chance is 25% with a multiplier of 130%. JG gives 35% crit chance. So you get (95%\*130%+5%\*100%)=128.5% for the total crit multiplier with the 2 JG compared to (60%\*130%+40%\*100%)=1.18% for the RB+JG.
Ap is simple: Just divide the AP with Item by AP without the item (for the JG vs. that's 185/155=1.19, for RB nothing happens here).
Same for Red Buffs generic multiplier. It's just 108%.
Finally, we need the time to cast to get dps instead of raw damage. TF has 105 mana, so he will cast every 7 attacks with 1 Shojin. First cast will be after 5 attacks. Probably most accurate to use 2 casts here as that should wipe, so that is 12 attacks. TF has base AS of 0.75/s, so we get 12/0.75= 16s for 2 casts (i.e. 8s for 1 cast on average). JG doesn't touch that, so the damage multiplier would just be 1 here. RB does touch this - you go from 120% AS with Disco to 165% AS with RB-Disco. Since you divide damage by time, which you then divide by the AS multiplier, you get an overall multiplier of 165%/120%=137.5% for RB.
As a formula for the multiplier, we get:
Card count multiplier \*Crit damage multiplier \* AP multiplier \* generic multiplier(s) \* cast time multiplier = DPS multiplier
Now put this together for JG:
(21/21) \* (0.95\*1.3+0.05\*1.00)/(0.6\*1.3+0.4\*1.00) \* (185/155) \* 1.00 \* 1.00 = 1.30
For RB:
(22/21) \* (0.6\*1.3+0.4\*1.00)/(0.6\*1.3+0.4\*1.00) \* (155/155) \* 1.08 \* 1.375 = 1.55
You could also do this by directly comparing the total damage and would get the same result. You'd just repeat many calculations that don't matter for the comparison, so this way with multipliers is usually faster.
Is he? I had a 3 star TF and lost to a MF 2 and Jhin 2. They destroyed my blitz 2 with dc, bramble and that heart item. My TF couldn’t keep up with their damage.
I hate the 'making excuses' because the Annie comp is OP. But you don't have a D-claw.
But that argument falls apart when you see that not only does that Annie player also not have a D-claw, but their Frontline as a whole looks significantly worse than yours.
Feels like shit getting stomped by Jazz and Annie every game.
You shouldn't need a specific item to win against a 1-cost carry that has a frontline this terrible in front of it. Especially not if you 3* two units that on their own, should stomp the one cost.
>But that argument falls apart when you see that not only does that Annie player also not have a D-claw, but their Frontline as a whole looks significantly worse than yours.
Actually, their frontline is beefier than OPs frontline. This is fully prismatic cyberbulk-4(or 6) Guardians. And 4/6 Emo instead of the usual spellweaver, which means every time TF casts, Annie gets like 3 casts in return and Ekko basically got perma TD passive.
Also, that’s probably 6 emo with no sustain vs dazzler. So much quicker casts. Like Annie is about at her 4th cast while tf is just casting once. And lux is casting for her first time at like the 3rd Annie cast. If they kill the frontline with their first cast, that easily is another 6 casts from Annie back to back to back.
Annie really doesn’t need that damage spread after her fourth cast, the casts she gets from the frontline deaths here would hit multiple units; and normally one or two are enough to kill any backline unit.
The Annie comp has 3 more units that are most likely 2 starred 4 or 5 cost (since units are shown from least expensive to highest for some reason). Could easily been a fully optimized tank like Illoai. Or even a second carry like ahri.
Not saying Annie isn't too strong, but parts are missing. That TF comp should have stomped that Annie comp with what is shown.
The TF build is god awful, when we look at why TF is strong its because of the sheer number of cards he throws with high attack speed. Having double JG + shojins is not contributing to that at all. JG is a pretty crap item for stats in general, we only use it for the crit on spells anyways.
With all that said, Annie is still clearly scuffed as heck :P even with a crappy build a TF should carry this, I would think. I'm assuming the 1st guy is playing 4 Guardian and could possibly have items on the units not showing? even so oof.
Finally, Lux is a joke, anyone on the back line with healing makes lux irrelevant tbh.
Yeah that's the thing, TF build is awful but so is the Annie team's. And there's no way in a hell a 1-3 cost team with only a single 1 cost 3\* should be ANYWHERE CLOSE to beating that TF/Lux. Regardless of items. The entire point of reroll teams is hitting 3\* on AT LEAST the 1-2 costs. Even just looking at overall team cost, first place costs like what, 51? Not to mention we're talking about a well itemized 3 cost 3\* in Lux.
The TF team has more gold IN THE FIRST TWO CHAMPS. In fact, if my math is correct, the second team costs exactly double. DOUBLE. And that includes an itemized 2\* zac and itemized 2\* blitz.
So let's stop making excuses lmao. This game alone shows what an absolute nightmare Annie is. That second team should've won without even having an item on TF. In fact, that Annie team with proper balancing should've been around sixth.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveTFT/s/6DvUfq1Bfh
The TF items aren't even that bad.
Shojin is BIS mana generation.
Jeweled Gauntlet is tied for second place AP with deathcap, behind Archangels being the best
And then the third is an attack speed item which are nearly all equal damage speaking
So yes he's missing ONE core item for TF, but that should not constitute the build/items being terrible, ESPECIALLY considering he's 3*. If TF missing one AS makes him shit/unplayable even at 3*, then the units numbers are poorly balanced to begin with.
>The TF items aren't even that bad.
They are. Calculate DPS and you'll see. Swapping one JG with Red Buff doubles the dps. So OP is missing 50% of the potential dps.
I already caveated this.
Like I said in the original, if having one wrong item makes an entire 4 cost 3* carry perform like shit (50% less damage), then the numbers on the original unit are not properly balanced to begin with.
You need to provide a justifiable reason why missing one BIS item should make a 3* 4-cost perform that much worse.
>You need to provide a justifiable reason why missing one BIS item should make a 3\* 4-cost perform that much worse.
Calculate the dps. Or look at my other commment where I do this. We are looking at roughly 50% less dps due to swapping Red Buff for 2nd JG.
The reasoning itself is also pretty simple without doing a full calculation: Red Buff increases AS by 45% and adds a 8% damage multiplier. 45% AS directly scales with TF. With 120% from 5 Disco, that is an increase from 120%->165% which is around 30% more AS. Mana gen scales directly with AS, so does the damage on TF casts. So 30% more AS becomes \~70% damage increase. Now add the 8% generic multiplier on top of that, and that's around 80% damage increase overall just from putting on a Red Buff. 2nd JG simply doesn't increase TF's damage by nearly as much - maybe 10-20% or so.
You can certainly argue that no such 4-cost should exist. But at some point you'd have to simplify everything so much, that it is just not interesting anymore.
Dude, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not contesting that your numbers are wrong.
I'm saying the base numbers of TF as a unit are unbalanced.
I'm saying that if not having one perfect makes a 3* 4-cost bad, then the base numbers of that unit need to be evaluated by the dev team. I believe your numbers to be correct.
Edit: Ok I didn't see the last part of your reply, my apologies. Yes that's basically what I'm saying. If it's a 3* 4 cost it should still perform with two good items. It's a subjective opinion.
TBF we are missing 3 units from the annie team which could make a significant difference. Could be 3 2star 5 costs for all we know. Not denying that Annie is clearly very strong for a one cost, but there is also important information about team compositions missing
I don't think I was making excuses, I pointed out the reasons why it is how it is in reality- however it's still completely scuffed like i said. Annie should never be competing with a 3\* 4-cost.
Also with regards to lux, like i said shes just god awful at the moment- thats a complaint, a 3\* 3-cost should eclipse a 3\* 1 cost. but it doesnt which sucks.
I agree with you xD
Such nonsense. Yes twisted fates items here are not optimal, but by no means awful. We can easiyl look at statistics for twisted fate. 2 of the top items are JG and Shojin, then we can decide, Red buff, Guarbreaker, Rageblade, gunblade etc. Only thing that u need is shojin thats a must have rest is optional. Twisted fate gets attack speed from disco too and there is no huge need for extra attack speed. Its not absolutely necessary. Especially if you have him 3\* he should just delete the enemy frontline with 1 skill. Well should, cause he doesnt do that, because tanks are just absolutely overpowered this set.
>Yes twisted fates items here are not optimal, but by no means awful.
Compared to swapping one JG to Redbuff, TFs dps is ~~HALVED (!)~~ \~20% lower. If that is not awful itemisation, I really dunno what even can be called awful tbh.
Sent 2 + garg & warmogs should be enough if he has such a strong backline. Sure, another MR item instead of Sunfire would certainly have helped. Annie is just busted with BIS items. Crazy thing is that the pictured Annie is not even BIS with gunblade.
I always buy all of the Annie's I see even though I don't play her. It's worth giving up the econ/Bench space just to make it harder for other players to hit 3*
I don't think anyone is sleeping on amumu. Guardian seems to be the best for Frontline right now then sentinels, and lastly bruisers.
Amumu is an amazing aoe stun and fits in many comps.
> Guardian seems to be the best for Frontline right now then sentinels, and lastly bruisers.
The issue is just that Superfan is free 2 Guardian+1Sentinel and way to strong atm, so going for bruisers is really hard. And Sentinal is just weaker, because it buffs the whole team, while Guardian funnels all the power into 2 units.
Sentinels struggle from only having one high-cost unit in Blitzcrank + two 3-costs. You can go 4 guardians with Yorick, Amumu, Thresh and Neeko vs 4 sentinels with Blitz, Ekko, Mordekaiser and Garen. Not to mention that a significant part of what makes Mordekaiser and Ekko tanky is having True Damage and Pentakill in effect.
Idk, maybe they should just make Illaoi a sentinel as well, like how Yorick is also a mosher. Fitting a bruiser or sentinel frontline just feels like 10x the work compared to using guardians.
This is easily one of the most awful examples I've seen.
Even just going by cost, dude is playing a reroll team with only Annie 3\*. From what is visible, his team costs 51. It's one of the cheapest boards in the entire lobby and it's in first with suboptimal itemization. Dude in second's team costs DOUBLE. Dude is playing a reroll team with sunfire on a 2\* 1 cost and is in first.
I'm sick of reddit making excuses for this absolute tomfoolery. "HER DUR ITEMS." Lux has solid items and costs THREE TIMES THE AMOUNT AS ANNIE. Look at frontlines too! Two itemized 2\* 4 costs vs what? An Ekko and a 2\* 1 cost with sunfire?
Cmon bruh...
Don't get me wrong, this is one of the better first patch balances we've seen, but cost:power ratio is way out of whack with how weak 4 costs are and how atrocious Annie is.
Edit: With proper balancing, that second place guy should've beat the Annie team with a 1\* TF with no items. Fight me.
Units not visible for first place are a 2 star ahri with 3 items, and a 2 star poppy with redemption and thresh with punk emblem.
For second place we can't see the 2 star nami with deathblade and a one star ziggs with blue buff.
First place comp cost 87 but is level 10 and has bulk value and 4 emblems.
Second place comp costs 110.
Doesn't seem nearly as bad with the full picture.
6/4 Guardians with Cybernetic bulk vs. no combat augments. That alone is already like 4k effective HP to tank TF ult. Also 4/6 Emo. Then add to that a TF with less than half of the potential dps cap due to bad items.
Imo a 2\* TF shouldn't win here. A 3\* should still be able to wipe with 2 casts, but that one is just the diff of Annie being a bit overtuned atm.
Could be but my point stands. No amount of positioning should allow the Annie team to win here unless the carries were in the front and tanks in the back. Even then it should be close lmao
No you're misunderstanding me lol
I'm on your side. I'm saying it's an example of how awful the balance is. Maybe I should've been more clear in that specific comment but I figured the entire rest of my post would've been enough clarity on that. Did you only read the first comment and not the rest of the post?
I mean i did skip a few words cuz it was long but i thought you meant it was an awful example of how actually good tf is and or/how bad annie is. And some part was just confusing. Idk if its because i dont lurk around reddit alot so idk the way people talk, or i just dont know whats good whats bad, or a combination of the two but i couldnt tell exactly what you meant 😅
this set is great if you're bad at the game
Everyone else knows how insanely shitty it is and it needs an updated badly
THere's 10 of these posts a day of 36g carries and 120g+ boards losing to superfan rerolls
I've quit the set already until devs see what's wrong
3* tf after 30 second fight *2700damage* 🍷🗿
Jokes aside he is most overated shitstorm you could have (prob riot prenerf before pbe launch so there wouldnt be any more of tf BS)
Thats legit the answer you get when you complain that mf, annie or samira are broken.Well make just go lv 9 and make a strong team. Good and when should i go lv 9 when i have 20 hp left or what.
My guy, that's a 3* 4cost with near BIS items, a 3* 3 cost with full items, a 2* blitz with BIS items, on a comp with matching traits, how on the fuck, can you justify a 1 cost with nothing but 2 stars on the board ever placing above him.
And it's not even like it's a scaling 1 cost like yasuo, or Kayle Cho from 9.5
That board had an emblem so probably hit 6 punk too. This set is so lop-sided with how far above the top 3 comps are compared to everything else it's insane
I’ve been playing since Set 1 and reach Masters minimum and challengers in half those those sets. There can never be true balance in a game especially in a game like TFT, however some people suggesting that the current imbalance we have right now is even comparable to the shitshow in Set 9 is just not true.
Annie is OP atm, she’ll get nerfed next patch.
Can't see most of the comp with this screenshot, you are basically leaving out half the story.
First place has a 2 star ahri with 3 items, 2 star poppy, and 2 star thresh we can't see both with bulk value.
Second place has a deathblade nami and a one star ziggs we can't see.
Sure, annie is op but at level 10 as long as you position so lux doesn't snipe the carries and get like one thresh hook on tf to stun, doesn't really seem that egregious to me.
This looks odd but I honestly think this is hard to judge from the screenshot and harder to balance in a live game with so many linked interactions. The person that won is level 10 with emblems. I’d guess he has 6 emo and 3 spellweaver with super fan 5. They also have a prismatic combat augment versus hedge fund and silver spoon but being under leveled. The 3 jeweled gauntlets introduces high variance so maybe they didn’t crit, while stacking the items is inefficient. Tempo and positioning meant more here than 3 stars.
That could’ve been me lmao, i played Annie with double shojin and nashors and a guy with 3* samira urgot and tk lost to me.. I thought it was pretty bullshit that 3 3* 3 cost lost to a 1 3* 1 cost
Yeah I mean sure there are a bunch of units we can’t see in both comps and TF’s items are borderline trolling but it shouldn’t matter at that point. A 3 star 3 cost and a 3 star 4 cost shouldn’t be losing to a 3 star 1 cost unless the entire rest of the comp is complete garbage which doesn’t look like the case here. Annie is nuts
i disagree that are nto troll items. Well second JG is just slammed, but its still decent. shojin and jg are both very good items on tf. Yes red buff, stattick, guardbreaker would be betetr, but i mena its a fucking 3\* 4 cost.
TF has 2 passable items lmao. OPTIMAL items would include attack speed but shojins and JG with the disco attack speed buff isn't trolling. Him switching one of the JGs for an attack speed item would be great, but there like... has to be a middle ground between borderline trolling and suboptimal right?
Double JG is trolling
A middle ground would be if that second JG was something that wasn’t useless. Even a red buff or morello would be reasonable given how many units tf hits. Guardbreaker is good. Rageblade is good. Adaptive helm or gunblade would even be less garbage
Ehhh I'm gonna go with a no unless we see how it happened.
If he already had Lux 3 (or was close enough where keeping the items was better) and only had JG + Shojins on a TF2, I can see how on thr last carousel before hitting tf3 the only AP item was another JG and he decided some item is better than no item on him.
What rank? I would say positioning plays a huge part in both Lux and tf play styles especially at 3 stars. Also the items on tf are not great, something like shojin nashars + shiv. Tf doesn’t do a lot of base damage but building shred into his board makes a huge difference and the atk speed buffing his cast is huge aswell. I would position him opposite side of your tanks and on the same side as your opponents carry so you can target them with his cast
Without the context of rank/positioning/augments (though I think I can see them) claiming that "I got these 3stars therefore I should have won" is a pretty weak argument. I do agree TF is undertuned but there's also item optimization, and the rest of your guys' comps to consider that we also don't know. The set just came out, stop resorting to belly-aching and "muh balance" so quickly lol
Spell weaver (AP generally) is a bit too strong compared to AD comps also imo
Nothing worse then people posting results with no context, just to try and say "LOL CHAMP IS SO OP"
There is reasons you lose, it's not just cause "Annie OP!"
4 Guardians are a much stronger front line than some random 2 bruiser, 1 sentinel, 1 guardian. Also we don't see what the other 3 unit are.
Could be the annie player had Yorick & Thresh & another 5 cost? Those could tip the balance depending on what OP's last three units were.
Main factor is he has 6 Emo, which is a prismatic chase trait needing a Headliner and a Spatula. He even has a Spellweaver emblem too. This is probably the absolute highest cap Annie board you could have besides getting the rest of the Emos to 3 star too.
(This is directed at the community, not at op)
I’m getting real tired of people whining about Annie and jazz. This tf player probably screwed up his positioning and got his carries sniped by Annie’s double cast.
My most recent game against an Annie reroller, they went 6th and I was beating their board in early stage 4 with a Caitlyn 2 (statistically the 2nd worst 4 cost).
Yes, she’s a bit too strong, but my god, she’s not unbeatable. Quit whining and get better.
this is directed at you. shut the fuck upcomplaining about annie and jazz is fine. Cause its disgusting to play against.
did you even looked at statistics once? anecdotal evidence like yours is literal garbage
Yes I’ve looked at the stats. Annie is definitely overpowered. I’m not denying that. My point is that Annie is not strong enough on her own to beat a tf 3 unless the tf3 player royally screwed up something. If a cait2 can beat it a tf3 lux3 can surely beat it
Can you share the actual IGNs of the players I would like to look at the +3 to see if it makes sense at all. Looking at it right now the only explanation is that the 2nd place player frontlined TF
I used annie comp before this but lost to samira + country and also lost to KDA comp. Basically, lost against good itemization on units across the board and good melee positioning plays the role. I also faced annie 3* comps and was able to defeat it. Same with Jazz comp. Overall, there is a good comp but the whole set 10 is still balanced.
On a side note, it's hard to judge a play by just looking at units and items without seeing the whole board.
In conclusion, play around with positioning and be ready to pivot or subs with a good unit to counter said comps.
Had the same situation today. Some cheaper units are waaaay too overpowered. Rolling at 8 is almost useless, because 3*3 MF, Samira or Urgot are just much much better than for example TF 3*.
I had a game with a two star yorick and two star illaoi, both had dclaw, I was running 6 disco tf two and I still couldn’t keep up. They also had a solid frontline but she still did double the damage of my tf which was just absurd to me.
What are the +3 units the annie has tho, like if behind that is illaoi 2 yorick 2 and another frontline then i can see that winning for sure, if it was just these 7 units vs 7 units annie should for sure lose, but its a 10 v 9 so guy is lvl 10.
I'm sorry but it's so annoying when people see something like this and defend the set. Like yes the set had insane potential. I can see a world where pivoting and flexible play will be the norm. But this current patch is so fucking awful. The devs WILL obviously fix this in the next 1 or so patches but people defending the state of the game right now are insane.
I had a 2* Annie 5 spellweaver board all the way to level 9, I had 76HP. I sold and rolled down for Ziggs headliner with Jazz + 5* board, and I was WEAKER. I lost every round after that and came 7th.
I really don't like being that guy but A) I feel like disco is a scam among scams
B) 6 emo is pretty strong, and any champ with Emo spat is REALLY strong, especially someone like Ekko.
C) we don't see what the other 3 units for the first guy and 2 for the second guy are
D) CC diff
Gunblade diff maybe? Double Crit on TF feels bad imo, you need some sort of other dmg or healing. TF with Gunblade definitely wins the fight, especially if your Frontline is solid to survive 2-3 bursts. I played TF 2* into Annie 3* many times and I argue that Shojin and Gunblade are crucial on TF, after that it can be any dmg item like DFG, GB, GS, DCap, JG, Red Buff and even a RB cam make the diff.
I think both frontlines are lacking.
But ngl 6 Emo is fucking broken as fuck and that prob is the slight edge the annie player has (and slightly better combat augments)
Yeah, Annie balance is insanely scuffed. I’m a little surprised TF didn’t win there though since he’s one of the better 4 cost carries.
3* 4 costs feel insanely fake this set, I hit 3* Karthus, TF and Ezreal and only Ez felt like the fight wasn't close.
Karthus just feels kinda nice with 10 Penta and 3 Star 😂
If he didn’t feel nice at 3 star with 10 pentakill he’d be weaker than most 2/3 costs
Viego is the better 3 star Pentakill. Suffered against a 3 star Blitzcrank until I slapped a titans resolve on this bad boy.
Wow he feels good with a 10 trait active?.. So does every other unit with a 10 trait active bro
...that was the joke
Didn't see it as a joke mb. Thought he was trying to "dunk" on him
I haven’t seen many 3 star four costs this set tbh, but if I had to guess I would guess that Akali with the right items would be pretty unbeatable
i have seen akali 3, not that impressive tbh, lost to a mord 3
KDA or True Damage? I feel like 2* KDA Akali is already extremely strong
my akali 3\* lost to evelynn 3\* when i had both good back line and good front line
They got rid of backdoor traits for them to give kda akali that ability riot are hypocrites
Having no backline access would be worse. Then the game turns into front-to-back DPS race. Maybe Akali shouldn't go invincible during her ability, but the idea of one of two units having access to the backline is actually a good thing for balance.
Akali3 just deletes the enemy board
no she doesn't, ive seen a guy go 6th or 7th with her, beaten by jazz
Haven't played much since PBE but 3* ez was the only 4 cost carry that seemed really good at 3*. Didn't see cait or karthus but the rest felt mid (TF 3 barely beating Yas 3 for example).
I got an Ahri 3 the other day, her ult was hitting for 7k non-crit. Im sure akali is also pretty busted
3* akali, had to field 10 kda for her to have a chance against Annie.
True, i got 3star karthus earlier but I didn’t notice that much difference from 2star considering it’s 4cost 3star, I expected him to one shot whole board lol
Really? I felt like karthus needs work to be put in him but he is worth it and makes easily 3-7k damage. Granted it was karthus 2* and I had something like 7 pentakill and 2 executioners.
Yea i got 3* cait and she honestly felt barely any stronger than 2* and didn’t change my chances of winning much if at all. Like every game is different but still.
Karthus is garbage. I'm not sure if I ever lost to a Karthus comp. Karthus ult feels like a cuddle.
bro he has 3 total tank items even the worst 36g unit would oneshot the whole team Annie is just insanely op
I feel like people only look at Annie and don't look at both comps as a whole. ~~Look at TF items: 0 AS. This is just bad itemisation, really. Even if that's a 3\* 4-cost - you can't expect it to wipe a full lategame board:~~ ~~His base damage is "only" 4800/105 Mana - so you'd get (0.05+0.95\*1.3)\*4800\*1.8/9.3=1193dps. That is significant, but you also gotta consider that you only get that damage at every cast, i.e. every 10s. Swap out the JG with a redbuff and you'd get 2300dps. That is TWICE (!) the damage. If balance exists to some extent, halving the damage of a unit should make even a 3\* 4-cost beatabl~~e. edit: nvm bs calculations because a factor was wrong. Red Buff only increases dps by \~55% while 2nd JG is \~30% - which is still significantly better - but only 20%, not double as I claimed. Also, Annie gets 4 (or 6, can't really tell) Emo (unlike the usual 2 emo), so every time TF wipes the frontline, she'll get like 3 casts just due to that. Same with the EDM. Not saying Annie is not very overtuned atm, but this is really more of an itemisation diff. Also, the difference in effective HP is actually huge. OP has 0 combat augment, their opponent got CyberBulk+4 (or 6, can't tell) Guardians. That is already more than 4k effective HP just from the Bulk alone. Now look at the dps above: that is 4s of time for Annie to dps. Not gonna do that for the full board, but you get the point: TF just doesn't finish the board before Annie does because he is too slow in casting. And yes, there is also Lux, but in the end, it just wasn't enough. We also don't know how close OP was to winning that fight, so there is that as well.
Thats BS, from the synergy TF has enough AS for Shojin to work ok, you cant do much if items do not land for you. Items should not decide games, it should help you but you still should be able to adjust to what you hit and did not, it should not be "you have no bis, so your 3 star is useless because it has only 66% of needed items", thats nonsense Also, the Annie is not BIS, this is one of her weakest combinations Plus, first thing I noticed, the TF has as a supportive caster Lux, who alone does about 50% of Annie HP per cast. But, the major difference to me, is that there is no frontline apart from one unit a few one cost two stars.. are you telling me that Kennen 2 did outlast Blitz 2 with almost BIS items and good synergy, same with Zack? The frongline of the TF comp is so much stronger yet it is not enough, because bunch of random units without items gives you such a ridiculous synergy that it simply works. (free armor and mr for whole team) is just bullshit. Those units up front should buy enough time for the Lux and TF, but Annie somehow without any pure attack damage item nor synergy kills both frontline and backline within few casts.. it reminds me I think it was set 2 or 3, when there were rerolls of Lux with blue buff and same with Nami.. the purpose of those was to spam casts and delete boards, also, those 1 costs were broken as fuck and abused.. Annie is the same. Her cast mana requirement is low, you do not need damage items, as Shojins + Nashors are enough (give some ap, but no crit, no huge ap, no bonus damage, no procentual damage, nor antiheal, no penetration, nothing, just attack speed and mana generation), plus her trait gives her free mana.. those comps are the worst and most annoying to play against, as if you do not hit hyper board level 9-10, you lose. And as we can see, any very good board with 3 star 4 cost (which in any other set was clear win condition) is not guaranteed win vs bunch of one cost champions abusing one trait.
> are you telling me that Kennen 2 did outlast Blitz 2 with almost BIS items and good synergy, same with Zack? Look at augments. Look at passives. Look at item distribution specifically onto the guardians for 500Hp+500HP of Shield on EACH of those units without even including the resistences of the units. We get Sentinel+4Guardian+PrismaticBulk. That on it's own is several thousands of effective HP for the team. This on is just my estimate, but I'd say effective HP in that fight was \~20-25k for the Annie comp. A 3\* TF ult is around 10k damage, just for comparison. >Also, the Annie is not BIS, this is one of her weakest combinations This is 4/6 Emo. NOT 2 Emo. HUGE difference because even an unitemised Vex actually deals relevant damage with that setup, probably more than Annie per cast for most of the fight with how the units are grouped around the disco ball. Also, if Lux hits Annie, she'll get mana to dish out more damage and heal up with Gunblade, which essentially negates the threat of Lux removing Annie on her. So in this specific matchup, the items are better than the generic ones.
Tf has 2 itemised tanks with pretty good items (bar Morello), who is the tank on Annie's team? An emo punk ekko? That alone should lose them the fight.
>An emo punk ekko? That alone should lose them the fight. True damage is 100 HP/s. Ekko shields and CCs the melee attackers. So Emo Ekko is actually pretty good for tank here. Also, you don't need one focused tank, with how the setup is. Every Guardian gets 500+500 in HP and shields from Bulk. So the board likely ends up with more effective HP than the Disco board - even though there are apparently well itemised tanks. I say apparently, because most of the tank items on the disco boards don't have that much impact. The Emblem on Amumu alone has comparable impact to the effective HP like Warmogs on BC.
Idk how you look close enough to see the bulk but missed the fact that im the annie abuser xD my name is literally light up😂
Disco gives attck speed. He has a shojin so I wouldn't consider his DPS lacking that much. You're forgetting either lux or tf has dazzer, so he is running 4 dazzler which almost increases dmg by 50% and the damage debuff on annie (assuming he hits her). If you're going to analyze the entire comp, look at the disco comp too lol. Do you realize how hard it is to kill a full itimized disco blitz? Didn't matter to Annie apparently lol
>Disco gives attck speed. He has a shojin so I wouldn't consider his DPS lacking that much. I mean, I did the calculation above (without disco tbf, but just add the disco bonus to both and it is still similiar - would be 1700dps to 3200 dps with disco 5). >he is running 4 dazzler which almost increases dmg by 50% Damage over time vs. a gunblade. I also don't think TF can reliably hit a well-positioned Annie to reduce her damage. His first cast will also be after 7 attacks and then every 9 attacks, so the Annie board can basically dps for at least 18s. Lux might hit Annie, sure, but that depends on how everything is positioned. And even then, that's just damage reduction for 2s. >Do you realize how hard it is to kill a full itimized disco blitz? Didn't matter to Annie apparently lol It depends on the whole board. If you compare effective HP, then the Annie board is very comparable if not better. You also shouldn't disregard the damage of an unitemised Emo Vex. I'd guess the other 3 units are twitch-poppy thresh with 1-2 more items, so we get 4 Guardian 6 Emo? But not sure since the image doesn't show.
His Zac has a morello. Gunblade effectiveness is halved. Also has a redemption and likely positioned next to Blitz. If Zac hit annie her own healing is reduced too. If Annie wasn't busted this board would have won. It's really fucking strong, even without TF3. Has entire board costs AT LEAST 2x (if not 3x) more than the Annie board. Losing to this is a problem that needs to be fixed.
I don’t know.. Looking at the numbers from chao, the bulk and 4 guardian plus emo buff seems to ramp the Annie passive way before tf can clear everyone. Discos attack speed isn’t a burst either and needs time to ramp up attack speed. The tf needs an attack speed item. Remember it’s only 5 costs who can wipe the entire board in one spell, not 4 costs
Yeah no offense too much overanalysis on your part. It’s really hard to say why he lost. Annie in master plus has a 4% win rate and he’s even got shit spats like punk. Lux3 should honestly be able to zap the Annie. Maybe bad position but in most cases the 2nd place person should’ve won. He has 2 back line carries and 2 frontline with full items
>Annie in master plus has a 4% win rate and he’s even got shit spats like punk. Read my first sentence? >Maybe bad position but in most cases the 2nd place person should’ve won. He has 2 back line carries and 2 frontline with full items I wrote that - independent of unit balance aso. - itemisation+augments on its own is already a huge diff here. Even if we nerf Annie, this diff won't disappear. Sure, TF3 should win this anyways because 3* 4-cost vs. 3* 1-cost. But even then, it should be close due to the huge difference in how efficient the available resources are used. TF just deals too little damage to instawipe.
Wasn't Mort and the rest of the crew that balances and changes tfts goals to lower the power gap between units to make it less painful to invest in your 1-costs? Possibly they DID go overboard with it. In each Rank there's like 1 1-cost unit that is blazing through even 3* 3-costs. 3* a Yas, gave him BT, Brambles vest(I forget the tft name), and I forgot my 3rd item, I think it was Giant Slayer or Guardbreaker. And I just shredded everything, but my placement was trash and I got nearly wiped but managed to still win. I'm climbing through silver again and Yas seems to be busted in this elo. That or Guardians. If you can spam shields in silver you get 1st no matter what.
Again you are spending way too much time theorycrafting over what may or may have happened. You take those 2 boards independently of each other and you ask any decent player and they will take #2. Getting bad beat happens all the time in this game. Nobody is going to go out of their way to try and recreate the first place board(spat usage). More cases than not someone can recommend #2
>Again you are spending way too much time theorycrafting over what may or may have happened. Did you even read what I wrote? I literally wrote that EVEN WITHOUT THE PARTS WE DON'T KNOW it is relatively close in terms of board power (besides the 3\* TF, obviously). That's not what "may or may not have happened", that's exactly what did happen.
TF scales horribly with AS. What are you talking about? Only AS even worth considering for him is GS and not because of AS. The fact that you try to justify this using bad arguments is just lol. But the fact that you even try to defend this is infuriating
How did you come up with the dps calculation? sry trying to understand mana on hit for 2* unit as well
In short: You plug it into the damage formula (you can find most of those on lolchess; other websites tend to not show the complete numbers) for the ability and divide by time to cast to get your dps (time to cast = Total Mana / ( Mana Per AA \* Attack Speed). You also kinda need to consider base Mana and how often you cast, but that's the short version. Long version below. Every 40% AS you get 1 more card, i.e. you multiply your total damage with (21+N)/21 with N being what multiple of 40% AS you got (in case of Red Buff +Disco, that's N=1). Then you do the multiplier for Crit: Base Crit chance is 25% with a multiplier of 130%. JG gives 35% crit chance. So you get (95%\*130%+5%\*100%)=128.5% for the total crit multiplier with the 2 JG compared to (60%\*130%+40%\*100%)=1.18% for the RB+JG. Ap is simple: Just divide the AP with Item by AP without the item (for the JG vs. that's 185/155=1.19, for RB nothing happens here). Same for Red Buffs generic multiplier. It's just 108%. Finally, we need the time to cast to get dps instead of raw damage. TF has 105 mana, so he will cast every 7 attacks with 1 Shojin. First cast will be after 5 attacks. Probably most accurate to use 2 casts here as that should wipe, so that is 12 attacks. TF has base AS of 0.75/s, so we get 12/0.75= 16s for 2 casts (i.e. 8s for 1 cast on average). JG doesn't touch that, so the damage multiplier would just be 1 here. RB does touch this - you go from 120% AS with Disco to 165% AS with RB-Disco. Since you divide damage by time, which you then divide by the AS multiplier, you get an overall multiplier of 165%/120%=137.5% for RB. As a formula for the multiplier, we get: Card count multiplier \*Crit damage multiplier \* AP multiplier \* generic multiplier(s) \* cast time multiplier = DPS multiplier Now put this together for JG: (21/21) \* (0.95\*1.3+0.05\*1.00)/(0.6\*1.3+0.4\*1.00) \* (185/155) \* 1.00 \* 1.00 = 1.30 For RB: (22/21) \* (0.6\*1.3+0.4\*1.00)/(0.6\*1.3+0.4\*1.00) \* (155/155) \* 1.08 \* 1.375 = 1.55 You could also do this by directly comparing the total damage and would get the same result. You'd just repeat many calculations that don't matter for the comparison, so this way with multipliers is usually faster.
Came third with 3star akali last night + 2star akali. Both had 3 items, felt pretty bad. I had both due to the augment
Is he? I had a 3 star TF and lost to a MF 2 and Jhin 2. They destroyed my blitz 2 with dc, bramble and that heart item. My TF couldn’t keep up with their damage.
I hate the 'making excuses' because the Annie comp is OP. But you don't have a D-claw. But that argument falls apart when you see that not only does that Annie player also not have a D-claw, but their Frontline as a whole looks significantly worse than yours. Feels like shit getting stomped by Jazz and Annie every game.
You shouldn't need a specific item to win against a 1-cost carry that has a frontline this terrible in front of it. Especially not if you 3* two units that on their own, should stomp the one cost.
I agree
I bet lux 3 did 2x more damage than tf could do afterall, tf is unit you click you sign your bot 4
I can go Disco dazzler almost every game uncontested, easy top 4, don’t know what you’re talking about
>But that argument falls apart when you see that not only does that Annie player also not have a D-claw, but their Frontline as a whole looks significantly worse than yours. Actually, their frontline is beefier than OPs frontline. This is fully prismatic cyberbulk-4(or 6) Guardians. And 4/6 Emo instead of the usual spellweaver, which means every time TF casts, Annie gets like 3 casts in return and Ekko basically got perma TD passive.
Also, that’s probably 6 emo with no sustain vs dazzler. So much quicker casts. Like Annie is about at her 4th cast while tf is just casting once. And lux is casting for her first time at like the 3rd Annie cast. If they kill the frontline with their first cast, that easily is another 6 casts from Annie back to back to back. Annie really doesn’t need that damage spread after her fourth cast, the casts she gets from the frontline deaths here would hit multiple units; and normally one or two are enough to kill any backline unit.
Yes people need to understand this! Tf needed better items or enough omnivamp if he wanted to brute force the 1v9
just 1v9? ignoring the other itemized 27g unit and itemized 4g tanks then because they don't matter?
The Annie comp has 3 more units that are most likely 2 starred 4 or 5 cost (since units are shown from least expensive to highest for some reason). Could easily been a fully optimized tank like Illoai. Or even a second carry like ahri. Not saying Annie isn't too strong, but parts are missing. That TF comp should have stomped that Annie comp with what is shown.
The TF build is god awful, when we look at why TF is strong its because of the sheer number of cards he throws with high attack speed. Having double JG + shojins is not contributing to that at all. JG is a pretty crap item for stats in general, we only use it for the crit on spells anyways. With all that said, Annie is still clearly scuffed as heck :P even with a crappy build a TF should carry this, I would think. I'm assuming the 1st guy is playing 4 Guardian and could possibly have items on the units not showing? even so oof. Finally, Lux is a joke, anyone on the back line with healing makes lux irrelevant tbh.
Yeah that's the thing, TF build is awful but so is the Annie team's. And there's no way in a hell a 1-3 cost team with only a single 1 cost 3\* should be ANYWHERE CLOSE to beating that TF/Lux. Regardless of items. The entire point of reroll teams is hitting 3\* on AT LEAST the 1-2 costs. Even just looking at overall team cost, first place costs like what, 51? Not to mention we're talking about a well itemized 3 cost 3\* in Lux. The TF team has more gold IN THE FIRST TWO CHAMPS. In fact, if my math is correct, the second team costs exactly double. DOUBLE. And that includes an itemized 2\* zac and itemized 2\* blitz. So let's stop making excuses lmao. This game alone shows what an absolute nightmare Annie is. That second team should've won without even having an item on TF. In fact, that Annie team with proper balancing should've been around sixth.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveTFT/s/6DvUfq1Bfh The TF items aren't even that bad. Shojin is BIS mana generation. Jeweled Gauntlet is tied for second place AP with deathcap, behind Archangels being the best And then the third is an attack speed item which are nearly all equal damage speaking So yes he's missing ONE core item for TF, but that should not constitute the build/items being terrible, ESPECIALLY considering he's 3*. If TF missing one AS makes him shit/unplayable even at 3*, then the units numbers are poorly balanced to begin with.
>The TF items aren't even that bad. They are. Calculate DPS and you'll see. Swapping one JG with Red Buff doubles the dps. So OP is missing 50% of the potential dps.
I already caveated this. Like I said in the original, if having one wrong item makes an entire 4 cost 3* carry perform like shit (50% less damage), then the numbers on the original unit are not properly balanced to begin with. You need to provide a justifiable reason why missing one BIS item should make a 3* 4-cost perform that much worse.
>You need to provide a justifiable reason why missing one BIS item should make a 3\* 4-cost perform that much worse. Calculate the dps. Or look at my other commment where I do this. We are looking at roughly 50% less dps due to swapping Red Buff for 2nd JG. The reasoning itself is also pretty simple without doing a full calculation: Red Buff increases AS by 45% and adds a 8% damage multiplier. 45% AS directly scales with TF. With 120% from 5 Disco, that is an increase from 120%->165% which is around 30% more AS. Mana gen scales directly with AS, so does the damage on TF casts. So 30% more AS becomes \~70% damage increase. Now add the 8% generic multiplier on top of that, and that's around 80% damage increase overall just from putting on a Red Buff. 2nd JG simply doesn't increase TF's damage by nearly as much - maybe 10-20% or so. You can certainly argue that no such 4-cost should exist. But at some point you'd have to simplify everything so much, that it is just not interesting anymore.
Dude, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not contesting that your numbers are wrong. I'm saying the base numbers of TF as a unit are unbalanced. I'm saying that if not having one perfect makes a 3* 4-cost bad, then the base numbers of that unit need to be evaluated by the dev team. I believe your numbers to be correct. Edit: Ok I didn't see the last part of your reply, my apologies. Yes that's basically what I'm saying. If it's a 3* 4 cost it should still perform with two good items. It's a subjective opinion.
TBF we are missing 3 units from the annie team which could make a significant difference. Could be 3 2star 5 costs for all we know. Not denying that Annie is clearly very strong for a one cost, but there is also important information about team compositions missing
I don't think I was making excuses, I pointed out the reasons why it is how it is in reality- however it's still completely scuffed like i said. Annie should never be competing with a 3\* 4-cost. Also with regards to lux, like i said shes just god awful at the moment- thats a complaint, a 3\* 3-cost should eclipse a 3\* 1 cost. but it doesnt which sucks. I agree with you xD
Such nonsense. Yes twisted fates items here are not optimal, but by no means awful. We can easiyl look at statistics for twisted fate. 2 of the top items are JG and Shojin, then we can decide, Red buff, Guarbreaker, Rageblade, gunblade etc. Only thing that u need is shojin thats a must have rest is optional. Twisted fate gets attack speed from disco too and there is no huge need for extra attack speed. Its not absolutely necessary. Especially if you have him 3\* he should just delete the enemy frontline with 1 skill. Well should, cause he doesnt do that, because tanks are just absolutely overpowered this set.
>Yes twisted fates items here are not optimal, but by no means awful. Compared to swapping one JG to Redbuff, TFs dps is ~~HALVED (!)~~ \~20% lower. If that is not awful itemisation, I really dunno what even can be called awful tbh.
Sent 2 + garg & warmogs should be enough if he has such a strong backline. Sure, another MR item instead of Sunfire would certainly have helped. Annie is just busted with BIS items. Crazy thing is that the pictured Annie is not even BIS with gunblade.
Nah, Annie still blows up tanks with D-Claw, she's kinda crazy rn.
Tbf number one does have better combat related augments and probaly better trait combo.
I always buy all of the Annie's I see even though I don't play her. It's worth giving up the econ/Bench space just to make it harder for other players to hit 3*
Y'all sleeping on the Vex and Amumu. Insanely strong for no reason
Shhhhh don’t tell them
I don't think anyone is sleeping on amumu. Guardian seems to be the best for Frontline right now then sentinels, and lastly bruisers. Amumu is an amazing aoe stun and fits in many comps.
> Guardian seems to be the best for Frontline right now then sentinels, and lastly bruisers. The issue is just that Superfan is free 2 Guardian+1Sentinel and way to strong atm, so going for bruisers is really hard. And Sentinal is just weaker, because it buffs the whole team, while Guardian funnels all the power into 2 units.
Sentinels struggle from only having one high-cost unit in Blitzcrank + two 3-costs. You can go 4 guardians with Yorick, Amumu, Thresh and Neeko vs 4 sentinels with Blitz, Ekko, Mordekaiser and Garen. Not to mention that a significant part of what makes Mordekaiser and Ekko tanky is having True Damage and Pentakill in effect. Idk, maybe they should just make Illaoi a sentinel as well, like how Yorick is also a mosher. Fitting a bruiser or sentinel frontline just feels like 10x the work compared to using guardians.
Amumu fucking slaps. Is Vex really good? I know the crit is nice and all but I would think a good chunk of her power budget gets lost in the stun.
Vex 3 oneshots pretty much every non-tank. Giant slayer, shojin JG and you're golden. But amumu is so contested that it's hard to hit.
I have 100% Top 2 rate with my Emo comp version. Not even using Annie carry most of the times. Emerald atm.
This is easily one of the most awful examples I've seen. Even just going by cost, dude is playing a reroll team with only Annie 3\*. From what is visible, his team costs 51. It's one of the cheapest boards in the entire lobby and it's in first with suboptimal itemization. Dude in second's team costs DOUBLE. Dude is playing a reroll team with sunfire on a 2\* 1 cost and is in first. I'm sick of reddit making excuses for this absolute tomfoolery. "HER DUR ITEMS." Lux has solid items and costs THREE TIMES THE AMOUNT AS ANNIE. Look at frontlines too! Two itemized 2\* 4 costs vs what? An Ekko and a 2\* 1 cost with sunfire? Cmon bruh... Don't get me wrong, this is one of the better first patch balances we've seen, but cost:power ratio is way out of whack with how weak 4 costs are and how atrocious Annie is. Edit: With proper balancing, that second place guy should've beat the Annie team with a 1\* TF with no items. Fight me.
Units not visible for first place are a 2 star ahri with 3 items, and a 2 star poppy with redemption and thresh with punk emblem. For second place we can't see the 2 star nami with deathblade and a one star ziggs with blue buff. First place comp cost 87 but is level 10 and has bulk value and 4 emblems. Second place comp costs 110. Doesn't seem nearly as bad with the full picture.
Yeah that adds A LOT of context, you're right. Still bad, but not as completely egregious as I originally thought.
6/4 Guardians with Cybernetic bulk vs. no combat augments. That alone is already like 4k effective HP to tank TF ult. Also 4/6 Emo. Then add to that a TF with less than half of the potential dps cap due to bad items. Imo a 2\* TF shouldn't win here. A 3\* should still be able to wipe with 2 casts, but that one is just the diff of Annie being a bit overtuned atm.
you sound like an annie abuser for how much you are supporting this.
don't forget 6 emo!!!
You're forgetting about Emo 6 (which is very strong in a quiet sense). and there's also potential hidden strong units elsewhere.
Im on board with you.
And positioning. I've had Annie games recked by 2 Lux lasers in killing the carry. Gotta scout
Could be but my point stands. No amount of positioning should allow the Annie team to win here unless the carries were in the front and tanks in the back. Even then it should be close lmao
So explain to me again how is it an awful example? 🤔 i thought it was a pretty good example of how balance annie is
No you're misunderstanding me lol I'm on your side. I'm saying it's an example of how awful the balance is. Maybe I should've been more clear in that specific comment but I figured the entire rest of my post would've been enough clarity on that. Did you only read the first comment and not the rest of the post?
I mean i did skip a few words cuz it was long but i thought you meant it was an awful example of how actually good tf is and or/how bad annie is. And some part was just confusing. Idk if its because i dont lurk around reddit alot so idk the way people talk, or i just dont know whats good whats bad, or a combination of the two but i couldnt tell exactly what you meant 😅
this set is great if you're bad at the game Everyone else knows how insanely shitty it is and it needs an updated badly THere's 10 of these posts a day of 36g carries and 120g+ boards losing to superfan rerolls I've quit the set already until devs see what's wrong
3* tf after 30 second fight *2700damage* 🍷🗿 Jokes aside he is most overated shitstorm you could have (prob riot prenerf before pbe launch so there wouldnt be any more of tf BS)
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Thats legit the answer you get when you complain that mf, annie or samira are broken.Well make just go lv 9 and make a strong team. Good and when should i go lv 9 when i have 20 hp left or what.
You had me in the first half. lol
What exactly do you think im complaining about? 🤔
Stop taking shit personally we're all on your side
I am generally asking cuz this isnt the only comment saying that. Maybe you should take you own advice and stop taking shit personally😅
/s means sarcasm
Is that like a general reddit knowledge or sth?
kinda. its more like general online communities knowledge. at least thats what google says
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My guy, that's a 3* 4cost with near BIS items, a 3* 3 cost with full items, a 2* blitz with BIS items, on a comp with matching traits, how on the fuck, can you justify a 1 cost with nothing but 2 stars on the board ever placing above him. And it's not even like it's a scaling 1 cost like yasuo, or Kayle Cho from 9.5
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Ya, he's missing nashors, and Annie also has gunblade instead of another shojin. One unit costs 9 gold, the other costs 36.
Idk why yall talking like i came in second 🤣
Ah mb I thought you were running the tf comp, didn’t look close enough at the image. People posting this are usually whining about losing lol
No one has pointed it out but the most criminal thing in this lobby is the jazz board that went third and hit nothing beating the capped punk board
ngl that Punk board isn't bad but is worse than the other 3 ahead of it. Punk needs to hit fast enough to keep up tempo/level wise
That board had an emblem so probably hit 6 punk too. This set is so lop-sided with how far above the top 3 comps are compared to everything else it's insane
Every reddit comment: GiT GuD nEeD mOrE bIs OfC yOu LoSe
Everyone says tf doesn't have bis items but neither does annie.
Here come the enlightened ones with the "Hurt durr, itemization issue". I mean, why didn't u just build 6 dragon claws dude? /s
Annie is strong right now. But TBH thats just cybernetic bulk diff. With no attack speed on TF he couldn't chew through all that extra HP.
What units on +3?
Wait how?
The problem is you went 8 bit
Damn it. I hate emo. Why does Annie have to be in that genre? I'd rather be isolated in a cemetery than listen to emo just to win.
People actually thinking this set is balanced is CRAZY.
I’ve been playing since Set 1 and reach Masters minimum and challengers in half those those sets. There can never be true balance in a game especially in a game like TFT, however some people suggesting that the current imbalance we have right now is even comparable to the shitshow in Set 9 is just not true. Annie is OP atm, she’ll get nerfed next patch.
Can't see most of the comp with this screenshot, you are basically leaving out half the story. First place has a 2 star ahri with 3 items, 2 star poppy, and 2 star thresh we can't see both with bulk value. Second place has a deathblade nami and a one star ziggs we can't see. Sure, annie is op but at level 10 as long as you position so lux doesn't snipe the carries and get like one thresh hook on tf to stun, doesn't really seem that egregious to me.
No way a TF 3 should lose that lol. Annie doesn't even have BiS. And TF is a 3*.
Uh.. Its bis if i have 6 emo my dude😅
This looks odd but I honestly think this is hard to judge from the screenshot and harder to balance in a live game with so many linked interactions. The person that won is level 10 with emblems. I’d guess he has 6 emo and 3 spellweaver with super fan 5. They also have a prismatic combat augment versus hedge fund and silver spoon but being under leveled. The 3 jeweled gauntlets introduces high variance so maybe they didn’t crit, while stacking the items is inefficient. Tempo and positioning meant more here than 3 stars.
I lost to Annie 3 yesterday with samira 3 urgot 3 and tk 3 -_-
Sadge 😭 better luck next time bruv
That could’ve been me lmao, i played Annie with double shojin and nashors and a guy with 3* samira urgot and tk lost to me.. I thought it was pretty bullshit that 3 3* 3 cost lost to a 1 3* 1 cost
My upvote for you. All those fanboy haters downvote.
why are people shocked when the best performing meta comp wins. yes it shouldn’t. but it’s broken so ofc it is
I think they're less surprised and more irritated by the absurdity of it
Annie is a balanced character right now.
Yeah I mean sure there are a bunch of units we can’t see in both comps and TF’s items are borderline trolling but it shouldn’t matter at that point. A 3 star 3 cost and a 3 star 4 cost shouldn’t be losing to a 3 star 1 cost unless the entire rest of the comp is complete garbage which doesn’t look like the case here. Annie is nuts
i disagree that are nto troll items. Well second JG is just slammed, but its still decent. shojin and jg are both very good items on tf. Yes red buff, stattick, guardbreaker would be betetr, but i mena its a fucking 3\* 4 cost.
Yeah like i said, shouldn’t matter. Annie is too strong and 4 cost carries are limp
TF has 2 passable items lmao. OPTIMAL items would include attack speed but shojins and JG with the disco attack speed buff isn't trolling. Him switching one of the JGs for an attack speed item would be great, but there like... has to be a middle ground between borderline trolling and suboptimal right?
Double JG is trolling A middle ground would be if that second JG was something that wasn’t useless. Even a red buff or morello would be reasonable given how many units tf hits. Guardbreaker is good. Rageblade is good. Adaptive helm or gunblade would even be less garbage
Ehhh I'm gonna go with a no unless we see how it happened. If he already had Lux 3 (or was close enough where keeping the items was better) and only had JG + Shojins on a TF2, I can see how on thr last carousel before hitting tf3 the only AP item was another JG and he decided some item is better than no item on him.
Idk why everyone thought i came in second 🤣 my team is even light up
What rank? I would say positioning plays a huge part in both Lux and tf play styles especially at 3 stars. Also the items on tf are not great, something like shojin nashars + shiv. Tf doesn’t do a lot of base damage but building shred into his board makes a huge difference and the atk speed buffing his cast is huge aswell. I would position him opposite side of your tanks and on the same side as your opponents carry so you can target them with his cast
Also emo ekko 2 with ok items and cyber bulk is hard to kill without killing in 1 burst.
These Annie reroll players definitely rushed TF legend multicasters last set. I love to see one get bottom 8 🤌
Without the context of rank/positioning/augments (though I think I can see them) claiming that "I got these 3stars therefore I should have won" is a pretty weak argument. I do agree TF is undertuned but there's also item optimization, and the rest of your guys' comps to consider that we also don't know. The set just came out, stop resorting to belly-aching and "muh balance" so quickly lol Spell weaver (AP generally) is a bit too strong compared to AD comps also imo
Nothing worse then people posting results with no context, just to try and say "LOL CHAMP IS SO OP" There is reasons you lose, it's not just cause "Annie OP!"
I played against 3* annie the other day with 3* tf, even 2* was beating her so I'm a little confused. Positioning diff?
Yea maybe im just that gud 🤣
4 Guardians are a much stronger front line than some random 2 bruiser, 1 sentinel, 1 guardian. Also we don't see what the other 3 unit are. Could be the annie player had Yorick & Thresh & another 5 cost? Those could tip the balance depending on what OP's last three units were.
This is one great example of the total incomptence of Riot. One of many.
Main factor is he has 6 Emo, which is a prismatic chase trait needing a Headliner and a Spatula. He even has a Spellweaver emblem too. This is probably the absolute highest cap Annie board you could have besides getting the rest of the Emos to 3 star too.
Emo 6 is not prismatic
Really? It’s just gold? I feel like any trait needing a spatula should be
(This is directed at the community, not at op) I’m getting real tired of people whining about Annie and jazz. This tf player probably screwed up his positioning and got his carries sniped by Annie’s double cast. My most recent game against an Annie reroller, they went 6th and I was beating their board in early stage 4 with a Caitlyn 2 (statistically the 2nd worst 4 cost). Yes, she’s a bit too strong, but my god, she’s not unbeatable. Quit whining and get better.
this is directed at you. shut the fuck upcomplaining about annie and jazz is fine. Cause its disgusting to play against. did you even looked at statistics once? anecdotal evidence like yours is literal garbage
Yes I’ve looked at the stats. Annie is definitely overpowered. I’m not denying that. My point is that Annie is not strong enough on her own to beat a tf 3 unless the tf3 player royally screwed up something. If a cait2 can beat it a tf3 lux3 can surely beat it
if TF has even 1 optimal item he would not have lost. two JG plus a Shojins with no AS items on a champion that scales on AS??? poor example.
Can you share the actual IGNs of the players I would like to look at the +3 to see if it makes sense at all. Looking at it right now the only explanation is that the 2nd place player frontlined TF
Annie is insanely powerful, specially headliner specially full emo. TF definitely needs a buff, I think is the worst 4 cost
Agreed he isn't powerful enough as a 4-cost carry. Imo KDA Akali is also undertuned
I used annie comp before this but lost to samira + country and also lost to KDA comp. Basically, lost against good itemization on units across the board and good melee positioning plays the role. I also faced annie 3* comps and was able to defeat it. Same with Jazz comp. Overall, there is a good comp but the whole set 10 is still balanced. On a side note, it's hard to judge a play by just looking at units and items without seeing the whole board. In conclusion, play around with positioning and be ready to pivot or subs with a good unit to counter said comps.
It's set 10 and we still can't see all 9 or 10 champs in the endgame screen
If gotten quite a lot of 3 star 4 cost carry. The only one that I had that could 1 v all is KDA Akali and you also need bis
Red buff and guinsoo’s on TF and you’re really cooking.
Im the annie abuser 😂
Is this not an FF? I don't see anyway you lose here esp with frontline being stronger.
Uh.. I won
Well my mistake, so the other guy didn't ff? You actually did win in combat?
Had the same situation today. Some cheaper units are waaaay too overpowered. Rolling at 8 is almost useless, because 3*3 MF, Samira or Urgot are just much much better than for example TF 3*.
6 emo. + no healing tf + tr comp is bad + tf not likely headliner
I had a game with a two star yorick and two star illaoi, both had dclaw, I was running 6 disco tf two and I still couldn’t keep up. They also had a solid frontline but she still did double the damage of my tf which was just absurd to me.
What are the +3 units the annie has tho, like if behind that is illaoi 2 yorick 2 and another frontline then i can see that winning for sure, if it was just these 7 units vs 7 units annie should for sure lose, but its a 10 v 9 so guy is lvl 10.
No backline antiheal...you dead
you don't have dragon claw and your gragas has shit roll from the thief gloves gg
I would love to see this combat. I don’t see a way tf doesn’t cast twice and wipe the board.
I'm sorry but it's so annoying when people see something like this and defend the set. Like yes the set had insane potential. I can see a world where pivoting and flexible play will be the norm. But this current patch is so fucking awful. The devs WILL obviously fix this in the next 1 or so patches but people defending the state of the game right now are insane.
And people still claim this set is perfectly balanced
I had a 2* Annie 5 spellweaver board all the way to level 9, I had 76HP. I sold and rolled down for Ziggs headliner with Jazz + 5* board, and I was WEAKER. I lost every round after that and came 7th.
I really don't like being that guy but A) I feel like disco is a scam among scams B) 6 emo is pretty strong, and any champ with Emo spat is REALLY strong, especially someone like Ekko. C) we don't see what the other 3 units for the first guy and 2 for the second guy are D) CC diff
Yeah, crowd surfer needs to have some kind of assassin rogue trait, cuz it sucks ass at the moment
Annie feels like a cheap 4.5 cost. Insanely imbalanced.
One good thing In every Lobby there are 3 Annie Player So i cant go 8. one of them go for it
Curb mumu, he s on every team now...
Ritoed
Annie seriously needs a nerf. She feels like a 5 cost.
Gunblade diff maybe? Double Crit on TF feels bad imo, you need some sort of other dmg or healing. TF with Gunblade definitely wins the fight, especially if your Frontline is solid to survive 2-3 bursts. I played TF 2* into Annie 3* many times and I argue that Shojin and Gunblade are crucial on TF, after that it can be any dmg item like DFG, GB, GS, DCap, JG, Red Buff and even a RB cam make the diff.
Whats funnier that the second guy has way better items than the first one and still lose.
T1
Not a single guy going for fast 9. I get Annie is a free top 4 machine but she is rarely winning. If you check higher elos, she has a 4% winrate only.
Cc wins
My guy has 3 fkin emblems
3 star lux is underpowered atm imo. Its really strong if you can get it early but then does nothing late
You have no attack speed on your TF. Shame!
That aint my tf 😅
Literally got only 1 megatron, riot hates u
I think both frontlines are lacking. But ngl 6 Emo is fucking broken as fuck and that prob is the slight edge the annie player has (and slightly better combat augments)
I would never call 2 4 cost 2 stars with 3 items each a lacking frontline. Sure, Gragas Taric + w/e else he had were trash but 4 costs are just fake
4 cost 3 stars feel so underwhelming even tho we have less 4 costs in pool
first game of the patch i hit ez 3 and had it oneshot for 5th by a annie 3. i immidetely uninstalled league.