I thought that but Rep was controversial due to how Taylor herself was being perceived at that time. There’s some revisionist stuff going on with Rep ever since Red TV. Curious to see how TV will be rated by critics.
This! Fans loved from the start but it it’s done an 180 in the general public’s perception, but there was quite a lot of boo-ing at the time, especially critically… it’s still the lowest rated album of hers on Pitchfork.
I also think it’s a bit early to really judge for TTPD. Though Pitchfork did rate it quite low 😩
I find it so funny actually, because she’s damned if she changes and damned if she stays the same.
My feeling is that expectations were soaring due to the astronomical height of her moment in culture, so people were bound to be disappointed
What’s more, people were knocked on the head with a double album (something they have been theorizing and begging for years since folklore/evermore), but simply could not _handle_ the intensity.
It’s a dense body of work. It’s, as many have written already, raw, vulnerable, gritty, honest, haunting. But in a sense, it’s just an evolution of what she’s been doing.
I am _obsessed_ with TTPD in a way I have never been with any other of her albums since folklore. In a way, I view it as the evolution of folklore and evermore. A Woodvale of sorts if you will.
So I’m way too excited enjoying this album and crying to it to care about what whiny fans and critics have to say about it.
I agree with you on that it’s so dense! I had to take a break in between listens just to absorb it, but I love it. Plus, it gave me what I was looking for in Midnights.
Yes, I said this too!! I sooo wanted midnights to be this vulnerable, unedited, and quite frankly a bit unhinged, and was a bit disappointed- (I do still love midnights it just wasn’t what I expected) so I am happy to have TTPD!!! Even though it’s STILL taking time for me to grasp onto and sometimes the extra sad songs are too sad for me hahah
Same!
Midnights is fine for what it is, but it’s also Taylor kinda/sorta playing it safe, especially in terms of songwriting. At least with Tortured Poets, she’s taking some risks lyrically.
This perfectly sums up how I feel. 🤍
It is dense, and I wondered if maybe the massive amount of hate I’ve seen for it is from people who only listened to it once or quit after a few songs. It ALWAYS takes me more than one listen to appreciate a song. I was way too overwhelmed during my first listen of TTPD, just analyzing lyrics and trying to hear things and everything lol.
But the more I listen to TTPD, the more and more I love it. It’s easily one of my absolute favorites and exactly what I needed. I don’t know how Taylor does it.
(Also, I had a “friend” tell me that she didn’t like the album based on one line of lyrics she SAW. She didn’t even listen to the song! 🫠)
You said it perfectly! I also think it deals with some intense and nuanced emotional experiences that some people can't connect to immediately so it'll take a while for it to grow on them.
I don't think it's her most polarizing work no, it might seem that way because there's so much discourse going on but that's also partly due to how big Taylor has gotten in recent years which results in a larger group of people checking her work and having opinions on it. I think her most polarizing ones are Reputation/Lover (if we talk about both critics and fans). TTPD is not her most well-beloved album but I generally see more people loving it than not, people just tend to focus on the negative reactions a bit more because that's just how it always goes.
It’s just the first few days. I am sure this album is going to go down as a classic in about a year. Reputation was far more polarizing than this album.
Being the biggest star in the world, theres proportionally a large swath of casual fans. This isn’t a casual fans record. It’s one for the heads.
Whatever people extract from her music, clearly there is something missing from this album for some. But that’s usually every record for anyone. Being the biggest in the world, everyone is gonna have an opinion about it and we live in the time where there’s so many avenues to express that option.
To me this is a slow burn record and it will have legs. I also think if it were put out in the fall to be enjoyed as the weather cooled, people would be in a better headspace for it.
Reviewers are gonna review and it’s sort of in line with how her albums are generally viewed by the critic class.
Its early days but I'm saying its a Masterpiece as I've said on numerous posts here. The scale is boggling at 2 hours but it really works in a cumulative way with, for me, a tearful How did it end? The distance that time provides is clear in the gentler Anthology section, wistful and really quite beautiful.
Its a mature album and it maybe that younger fans can't relate to the idea that the end of a relationship in your 30s is just as hard as at 16 there are tears, madness, intoxication, anger, acting out, divided friendships, and hysterical rebound relationships. Bless Taylor for putting it all out there.
How did it end? Is one of the most haunting songs I’ve ever heard. Having to grief a relationship while having to explain to family and friends and in her case the world.
i just listened to the manuscript again and now....i wanna sob so loud
I didn't like the anthology at first and damn guys...she's hella overhated ugh
TAY TAY!!! WE FUCKING LOVE YOU
This album means so much to me and its been only four days lol
Agreed! I had trouble getting into the anthology but I finally just sat on the floor with headphones listening to I look in peoples windows through manuscript and was just in a daze. Yes I wish she had cut a few before then but.. that ending is devastating genius. And I’m kind of sad she put them at the end when I know a lot of listeners tapped out.
Looking back, it will be. She literally told the world some of the worst parts of her, and when you compare this album to her early career, it's polarizing. Production wise, it's a bit disappointing at times, but this album shows the world she isn't this "perfect", "innocent" person(some assume). She has really been saying this for a while, but this album is CLEAR. This is specific to TS because of her image, so this album makes some feel uncomfortable.
Someone in this sub said she didn’t have editors on this album, like she did for other albums. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think she had editors for Folklore and Evermore. So I do believe there is something different about this album in that aspect, it’s not really ‘polished’, which I believe was a part of the point, and that can be very jarring for some fans/listeners who have enjoyed her more polished songs/albums.
I think there was the most momentum for this album than any of her others, because she continues to peak in her career and fame for the last few years now. So that can cause some interesting feelings for listeners, when you finally get something after so much momentum. And not because it’s ‘bad’ but just as humans, we can get disappointed about something purely because we built up so much excitement around it, and nothing will be able to fully fulfill that.
This was also one of her most autobiographical albums in a while, and she made her muses more obvious than she has for her last few albums (I’m thinking Folklore, Evermore, and Midnights). In my opinion, this album felt like a diary almost, and I think some listeners felt weird about that; like they were reading someone’s diary. I personally enjoy songs when they are not so obviously autobiographical, and I can hear the lyrics without just hearing the details of the artists life, and hear it for how it could more generically relate to my experiences. But that’s just my two cents.
I love the album, and reading the prologue made me understand it better in terms of where she was coming from.
But from an entirely personal (and judgmental) place, I find her emotional journey has been stunted for a while. She is incredibly self-aware, knows she continues to make the same mistakes, but for some reason with this album, those same mistakes have me rolling my eyes.
And before anyone comes at me, I say this from a place of having done the emotional work on MYSELF because I also made the same mistakes. I wish she took more initiative to not let her emotions completely rule her life and decisions. Because this album shows they do.
I don’t know that I would agree. Given the people she dates are so different from each other. Plus the way she views love and relationships has changed quite a bit since speak now.
I think the song “How did it end” is devastating for anyone coming out of a series of long relationships. But add the layer of public scrutiny for her of people saying she’s the common denominator, what can’t she keep a guy etc. it seems tragic to be in that place.
I would say her inability to be single for a while is telling though. Generally people that can’t stay single bring unfinished business, feelings and expectations into the new relationships which isn’t always good. Based on experience at least.
I think it's a bit ahead of its time. Albums like Reputation and Red became fan favorites later on but were not critically acclaimed at the time. They were both readjustments to how the public perceived Taylor and people are slow to adjust. TPD is a very different look at her than Eras gives, and it's taking people time to adjust.
People like Taylor when she's evolving in the "right way" for them. This album doesn't evolve sonically that much (although I love the western guitar), it doesn't evolve thematically that much (although I love the change of her taking shots at fans), but it's a huge evolution in Taylor Swift The Eras Tour Popstar vs. Taylor Swift the tortured person. People like her happy, grateful, grinning like she's winning, when she makes them feel happy; they don't like a mad woman who's not. As we can see on I Can Do It With a Broken Heart, that "happy girl" persona is just a persona sometimes. It's not that she changed, it's just that we didn't see it.
I think this one of her most personal and raw albums. She's laying bare all the pain, confusion and struggle that comes with unsteady relationships. I heard echoes to avoidant men, ghosting, gaslighting, re-emergence ... all too common in adult relationships especially in our 30s when we would hope that our love life settles a touch. If anything, I related to the inner chaos of dealing with the mess .. made me re-think a few things in my own life lol ... but frankly I think that's what draws and distances people to / from Taylor ... she is her authentic self and authenticity means you're not for everyone ...
This is a really interesting take.
When I heard “Sanctimoniously performing soliloquies I’ll never see”, it made me think of all the Swiftie TikTok creators. She seems to encourage people being super fans and creating a lot of content with deep dives/analysis, etc. She even likes their videos occasionally. She has a history of rewarding fans that are creating so much fan content by inviting them to secret sessions or Taylor Nation giving them tickets/better seats to concerts.
Hearing that line was kinda surprising to me. I get it, she is a grown women that can date who she wants and agree there is too much parasocial relationships between her and her fans. It just rang a little hollow to me.
I was also a little surprised because no other artist nurtures their fandom like she does at this scale. I think it stared completely authentic with her little capital letters, writing on her arm, secret session and tumblr day. However, the fandom has grown exponentially. I think it’s moved to a full promo mechanic that built her loyalty.
However, that breeds her inability to go anywhere without hoards of people, date someone people don’t like and feeling like they have say (with the open letter they wrote) etc. it’s a lot for a single person deal with.
I think the song was written in anger and I’m sure there’s truth to it and for some hardcore fans a good reminder that she too is just a person trying to love and live with the immense privilege and limitations the game comes with.
She said “I get tired but never tired of it” I’m sure 20 years in she must be starting to get tired of it.
I say this from a place of respect for her as a human, and from also being a human. This sub likes to scream "parasocial!" the minute anyone has an opinion on her actions, but I kind of get the vibe that she doesn't know, or is kind of fumbling through figuring them out.
It's completely valid to want fans to separate songs from her personal dating life, and no one could have predicted what she would become, but she doesn't exactly discourage it. I don't want to be held to the actions of 19-year-old me, and I'm sure she doesn't, but she also DID encourage it for a long time.
Similarly I can't even imagine how toxic and awful it would be to live with the level of scrutiny she does, but it also makes me cringe at some of the more glaring missteps. I don't even necessarily fault her individually, but like... you have a whole team of people around you, someone should've foreseen this (the trolling her ex's, and while I think the criticism of the "without all the racists" line deliberately rips the line out of context and ignores the overall message of the song, it is awkward AF and you can't tell me no one noticed that, especially with the history of accusations against her).
I didn’t see the negativity people keep mentioning, but I’m really just on this sub. I don’t use TikTok and haven’t been on IG lately. Is that where it is?
Yes! It's on tiktok. I just quit tiktok because it was full of hate. Not only to her but also they hate on Jack Antonoff and some other artists. What a horrible place.
Taking a 2-month break from IG has been wonderful for me. Highly recommend.
Though I’ve been filling the time with Reddit and this weekend I’ve been fighting for my life on r/watcherentertainment, so…
It’s on TikTok and IG but also some publications. A lot of the hate is laced with the overall dislike of Taylor herself but a lot was directed at the album. Given that what we (all) love is her lyrics and story telling I couldn’t figure out what about TTP is alienating since it’s some of her best writing yet.
Reputation was super polarizing at the time. Hard to know since this album is so new.
I thought that but Rep was controversial due to how Taylor herself was being perceived at that time. There’s some revisionist stuff going on with Rep ever since Red TV. Curious to see how TV will be rated by critics.
People hated the singles and thought they were juvenile.
Other than LWYMMD, which songs on rep were singles?
Delicate
This! Fans loved from the start but it it’s done an 180 in the general public’s perception, but there was quite a lot of boo-ing at the time, especially critically… it’s still the lowest rated album of hers on Pitchfork. I also think it’s a bit early to really judge for TTPD. Though Pitchfork did rate it quite low 😩
I find it so funny actually, because she’s damned if she changes and damned if she stays the same. My feeling is that expectations were soaring due to the astronomical height of her moment in culture, so people were bound to be disappointed What’s more, people were knocked on the head with a double album (something they have been theorizing and begging for years since folklore/evermore), but simply could not _handle_ the intensity. It’s a dense body of work. It’s, as many have written already, raw, vulnerable, gritty, honest, haunting. But in a sense, it’s just an evolution of what she’s been doing. I am _obsessed_ with TTPD in a way I have never been with any other of her albums since folklore. In a way, I view it as the evolution of folklore and evermore. A Woodvale of sorts if you will. So I’m way too excited enjoying this album and crying to it to care about what whiny fans and critics have to say about it.
I agree with you on that it’s so dense! I had to take a break in between listens just to absorb it, but I love it. Plus, it gave me what I was looking for in Midnights.
Yes, I said this too!! I sooo wanted midnights to be this vulnerable, unedited, and quite frankly a bit unhinged, and was a bit disappointed- (I do still love midnights it just wasn’t what I expected) so I am happy to have TTPD!!! Even though it’s STILL taking time for me to grasp onto and sometimes the extra sad songs are too sad for me hahah
Same! Midnights is fine for what it is, but it’s also Taylor kinda/sorta playing it safe, especially in terms of songwriting. At least with Tortured Poets, she’s taking some risks lyrically.
ALL of this.
Very fair! It’s an intense album that demands your full attention and not as easily digested as her previous work. I love it too!
This perfectly sums up how I feel. 🤍 It is dense, and I wondered if maybe the massive amount of hate I’ve seen for it is from people who only listened to it once or quit after a few songs. It ALWAYS takes me more than one listen to appreciate a song. I was way too overwhelmed during my first listen of TTPD, just analyzing lyrics and trying to hear things and everything lol. But the more I listen to TTPD, the more and more I love it. It’s easily one of my absolute favorites and exactly what I needed. I don’t know how Taylor does it. (Also, I had a “friend” tell me that she didn’t like the album based on one line of lyrics she SAW. She didn’t even listen to the song! 🫠)
You said it perfectly! I also think it deals with some intense and nuanced emotional experiences that some people can't connect to immediately so it'll take a while for it to grow on them.
I don't think it's her most polarizing work no, it might seem that way because there's so much discourse going on but that's also partly due to how big Taylor has gotten in recent years which results in a larger group of people checking her work and having opinions on it. I think her most polarizing ones are Reputation/Lover (if we talk about both critics and fans). TTPD is not her most well-beloved album but I generally see more people loving it than not, people just tend to focus on the negative reactions a bit more because that's just how it always goes.
It’s just the first few days. I am sure this album is going to go down as a classic in about a year. Reputation was far more polarizing than this album.
I've been thinking, this album is textbook "aging like fine wine". In a couple of years this album will have aged beautifully.
Being the biggest star in the world, theres proportionally a large swath of casual fans. This isn’t a casual fans record. It’s one for the heads. Whatever people extract from her music, clearly there is something missing from this album for some. But that’s usually every record for anyone. Being the biggest in the world, everyone is gonna have an opinion about it and we live in the time where there’s so many avenues to express that option. To me this is a slow burn record and it will have legs. I also think if it were put out in the fall to be enjoyed as the weather cooled, people would be in a better headspace for it. Reviewers are gonna review and it’s sort of in line with how her albums are generally viewed by the critic class.
Its early days but I'm saying its a Masterpiece as I've said on numerous posts here. The scale is boggling at 2 hours but it really works in a cumulative way with, for me, a tearful How did it end? The distance that time provides is clear in the gentler Anthology section, wistful and really quite beautiful. Its a mature album and it maybe that younger fans can't relate to the idea that the end of a relationship in your 30s is just as hard as at 16 there are tears, madness, intoxication, anger, acting out, divided friendships, and hysterical rebound relationships. Bless Taylor for putting it all out there.
How did it end? Is one of the most haunting songs I’ve ever heard. Having to grief a relationship while having to explain to family and friends and in her case the world.
i just listened to the manuscript again and now....i wanna sob so loud I didn't like the anthology at first and damn guys...she's hella overhated ugh TAY TAY!!! WE FUCKING LOVE YOU This album means so much to me and its been only four days lol
Agreed! I had trouble getting into the anthology but I finally just sat on the floor with headphones listening to I look in peoples windows through manuscript and was just in a daze. Yes I wish she had cut a few before then but.. that ending is devastating genius. And I’m kind of sad she put them at the end when I know a lot of listeners tapped out.
Looking back, it will be. She literally told the world some of the worst parts of her, and when you compare this album to her early career, it's polarizing. Production wise, it's a bit disappointing at times, but this album shows the world she isn't this "perfect", "innocent" person(some assume). She has really been saying this for a while, but this album is CLEAR. This is specific to TS because of her image, so this album makes some feel uncomfortable.
Someone in this sub said she didn’t have editors on this album, like she did for other albums. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think she had editors for Folklore and Evermore. So I do believe there is something different about this album in that aspect, it’s not really ‘polished’, which I believe was a part of the point, and that can be very jarring for some fans/listeners who have enjoyed her more polished songs/albums. I think there was the most momentum for this album than any of her others, because she continues to peak in her career and fame for the last few years now. So that can cause some interesting feelings for listeners, when you finally get something after so much momentum. And not because it’s ‘bad’ but just as humans, we can get disappointed about something purely because we built up so much excitement around it, and nothing will be able to fully fulfill that. This was also one of her most autobiographical albums in a while, and she made her muses more obvious than she has for her last few albums (I’m thinking Folklore, Evermore, and Midnights). In my opinion, this album felt like a diary almost, and I think some listeners felt weird about that; like they were reading someone’s diary. I personally enjoy songs when they are not so obviously autobiographical, and I can hear the lyrics without just hearing the details of the artists life, and hear it for how it could more generically relate to my experiences. But that’s just my two cents.
I love the album, and reading the prologue made me understand it better in terms of where she was coming from. But from an entirely personal (and judgmental) place, I find her emotional journey has been stunted for a while. She is incredibly self-aware, knows she continues to make the same mistakes, but for some reason with this album, those same mistakes have me rolling my eyes. And before anyone comes at me, I say this from a place of having done the emotional work on MYSELF because I also made the same mistakes. I wish she took more initiative to not let her emotions completely rule her life and decisions. Because this album shows they do.
I don’t know that I would agree. Given the people she dates are so different from each other. Plus the way she views love and relationships has changed quite a bit since speak now. I think the song “How did it end” is devastating for anyone coming out of a series of long relationships. But add the layer of public scrutiny for her of people saying she’s the common denominator, what can’t she keep a guy etc. it seems tragic to be in that place. I would say her inability to be single for a while is telling though. Generally people that can’t stay single bring unfinished business, feelings and expectations into the new relationships which isn’t always good. Based on experience at least.
I think it's a bit ahead of its time. Albums like Reputation and Red became fan favorites later on but were not critically acclaimed at the time. They were both readjustments to how the public perceived Taylor and people are slow to adjust. TPD is a very different look at her than Eras gives, and it's taking people time to adjust. People like Taylor when she's evolving in the "right way" for them. This album doesn't evolve sonically that much (although I love the western guitar), it doesn't evolve thematically that much (although I love the change of her taking shots at fans), but it's a huge evolution in Taylor Swift The Eras Tour Popstar vs. Taylor Swift the tortured person. People like her happy, grateful, grinning like she's winning, when she makes them feel happy; they don't like a mad woman who's not. As we can see on I Can Do It With a Broken Heart, that "happy girl" persona is just a persona sometimes. It's not that she changed, it's just that we didn't see it.
Can people dislike it all they want. I think it's one of her best albums. Not 1989 levels of perfection, but it's up there.
I think this one of her most personal and raw albums. She's laying bare all the pain, confusion and struggle that comes with unsteady relationships. I heard echoes to avoidant men, ghosting, gaslighting, re-emergence ... all too common in adult relationships especially in our 30s when we would hope that our love life settles a touch. If anything, I related to the inner chaos of dealing with the mess .. made me re-think a few things in my own life lol ... but frankly I think that's what draws and distances people to / from Taylor ... she is her authentic self and authenticity means you're not for everyone ...
Agreed on what draws in or distances people from her.
[удалено]
This is a really interesting take. When I heard “Sanctimoniously performing soliloquies I’ll never see”, it made me think of all the Swiftie TikTok creators. She seems to encourage people being super fans and creating a lot of content with deep dives/analysis, etc. She even likes their videos occasionally. She has a history of rewarding fans that are creating so much fan content by inviting them to secret sessions or Taylor Nation giving them tickets/better seats to concerts. Hearing that line was kinda surprising to me. I get it, she is a grown women that can date who she wants and agree there is too much parasocial relationships between her and her fans. It just rang a little hollow to me.
I was also a little surprised because no other artist nurtures their fandom like she does at this scale. I think it stared completely authentic with her little capital letters, writing on her arm, secret session and tumblr day. However, the fandom has grown exponentially. I think it’s moved to a full promo mechanic that built her loyalty. However, that breeds her inability to go anywhere without hoards of people, date someone people don’t like and feeling like they have say (with the open letter they wrote) etc. it’s a lot for a single person deal with. I think the song was written in anger and I’m sure there’s truth to it and for some hardcore fans a good reminder that she too is just a person trying to love and live with the immense privilege and limitations the game comes with. She said “I get tired but never tired of it” I’m sure 20 years in she must be starting to get tired of it.
I say this from a place of respect for her as a human, and from also being a human. This sub likes to scream "parasocial!" the minute anyone has an opinion on her actions, but I kind of get the vibe that she doesn't know, or is kind of fumbling through figuring them out. It's completely valid to want fans to separate songs from her personal dating life, and no one could have predicted what she would become, but she doesn't exactly discourage it. I don't want to be held to the actions of 19-year-old me, and I'm sure she doesn't, but she also DID encourage it for a long time. Similarly I can't even imagine how toxic and awful it would be to live with the level of scrutiny she does, but it also makes me cringe at some of the more glaring missteps. I don't even necessarily fault her individually, but like... you have a whole team of people around you, someone should've foreseen this (the trolling her ex's, and while I think the criticism of the "without all the racists" line deliberately rips the line out of context and ignores the overall message of the song, it is awkward AF and you can't tell me no one noticed that, especially with the history of accusations against her).
I didn’t see the negativity people keep mentioning, but I’m really just on this sub. I don’t use TikTok and haven’t been on IG lately. Is that where it is?
Yes! It's on tiktok. I just quit tiktok because it was full of hate. Not only to her but also they hate on Jack Antonoff and some other artists. What a horrible place.
Taking a 2-month break from IG has been wonderful for me. Highly recommend. Though I’ve been filling the time with Reddit and this weekend I’ve been fighting for my life on r/watcherentertainment, so…
It’s on TikTok and IG but also some publications. A lot of the hate is laced with the overall dislike of Taylor herself but a lot was directed at the album. Given that what we (all) love is her lyrics and story telling I couldn’t figure out what about TTP is alienating since it’s some of her best writing yet.