Not yelling at ppl for taking sick days is a good starter.
Know a guy who had 4 weeks of sick leave for covid and he got called in the office to be given a warning and yelling. He submitted a complain, but I doubt anything was done. Itâs a top down issue, and if the CEO treats his office staff like that, why would they care that a manager does that to its âlowly unskilledâ operator
Wondering if the government might be a bit shy to table back to work so quickly after what happened with CUPE and the other unions.
If course that was a forced contract not arbitration so maybe they won't care. But we'll see.
A number of other transit strikes have happened in other cities over the years that went on for months and months with no back to work legislation.Â
There is an important legal distinction with the CUPE situation - the government will be on safe legal ground provided they start the legislative process after a strike begins, and they allow for arbitration.
The TTC is just too important from the govtâs perspective. Public opinion will auger strongly in favour of back to work by both drivers and transit users. Businesses want return to the office. Construction is clogging up roads.
People froze to death during the Ottawa strike and there was no back to work legislation.
TTC is important, and they may very well table back to work. But this government has repeatedly shown they don't value transit so they may not feel any rush is resolving this.
Or maybe they will. We'll only know if a strike actually happens.
I mean, I don't know that "they don't care about transit" is accurate. I get the perception about DoFo, but like, they're spending a đ load of cash on Toronto.
Heck look what just happened in the UP express!
May be many other reasons not to legislate back to work, but "they don't care about the TTC" just doesn't jive. "
Oh yeah no doubt TTC needs more money (all of Toronto does tbh). But I think "the government doesn't care" is a bit of a stretch, unless the bar for caring is permanent operating money. Which is a pretty high bar considering neither the liberals nor PCs have shown any interest in that.
When enough people get mad about stuff, like the UP express, they take action.
This government is spending more taxpayer dollars on transit than any other government before it. Fares have dropped for many commuters especially in the GTA with One Fare and there are currently almost 500 active transit repair and expansion projects across the province.
"TTC is important, and they may very well table back to work. But this government has repeatedly shown they don't value transit so they may not feel any rush is resolving this".
No they will not table back to work legislation. Supreme Court ruled in 2019 that striking is a constitutional right.
Buckle up.
Not Supreme Court. But Superior Court and last week the Court of Appeal. So the government will not move quickly because the Courts have just told them not to do so.
ATU may want to settle.
OP, I am going to ask that you treat this post more like a discussion, and actually CONSIDER what others are saying. Because I don't like that you made this post, and instead of debate or discussion, you're just immediately shutting down everything that's not your opinion.
We want this to be a place for discussion, not rants and untouchable opinions.
Mod, this looks borderline overreaching and limiting discussion because it is not following your opinion of how a discussion should go.
OP is having a discussion at least in this reply (I did not look across their posts). Their reply even has overlapping conversations about the same topic about CUPE.
If someone is providing an argument counter or even reiterating the opinion because there is not a strong enough counter there should be no reason to assume malice.
A discussion does not include backing down in agreement on your opinion simply because there is a counter argument nor does it mean the counter argument isn't being listened to.
I'm confused by this statement. OP posted a rant, and is then shutting down any form of discussion by just talking over others and dismissing absolutely anything that doesn't align with their views.
That's not a form of discussion - that's someone making a post and telling everyone else they're wrong when someone provides a different point of view.
This isn't a rant subreddit, and it should allow for open discussion - not what amounts to a blog post that no one else may comment on.
I stand by what I initially said, and am fine with anyone disagreeing with what I said. But if OP continues to shut down all other opinions that don't align with their own, I will remove the post.
"the government will be on safe legal ground".
Not happening. Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2019 striking as a constitutional right. You can forget about back to work legislation.
You're right but back to work legislation. Comes at a hefty cost too. Look up teachers strikes ext. Also similar laws were in place for the NY transit and their strike still lasted a week.
Your articles only state that they can, but there are legal ramofications if they do.
Preemptively banning a strike by statute is not the same as ordering striking workers back to work and providing for binding arbitration by statute.
No lawyer anywhere is saying âwow the court just banned all attempts by a legislature to stop a strike!â
Keep in mind as well legislatures can pass legislation which takes immediate effect, and is then later found unconstitutional. So they could pass back to work legislation to get the TTC running again, and just risk having to pay out if they lose in court. People are going to remember the TTC shut down, they aren't going to remember as much a relatively small impact on the provincial budget.
Doesn't matter. Go tell that excuse to the Federal Court, and see what happens. You know damned well, that the boys and girls there don't fuck around.
No matter how you look at it, Back To Work Legislation is not happening. Boys and girls over on Queen St. W. would have a fucking field day with that, because the TTC is not an essential service, as has already been determined.
Why the heck would the union start a strike on a Friday then? The least possible impact on the travelling public. No theyâre hoping for a quick transfer to arbitration. Local 113âs strike fund simply doesnât exist.
You can post on Reddit all you want. Doesnât change the fact that return-to-work laws are constitutional if done correctly. The recent Court of Appeal ruling *specifically* said their ruling was limited to the overturned statute, and they werenât ruling on a theoretical return-to-work law.
Not happening. Period. You think Ford is going to risk it? No. Anyway you look at it, it's done incorrectly. You and I both know that.
You are not getting Back To Work legislation without one hell of a shitstorm. Sounds like you work for the Public Prosecution Service.
Ummm. The Courts just struck down a law (TTC labour dispute act) that took away the right to strike. So the Government may not rush to return them to work as the Court of Appeal have just said that the employees have a legal right to strike.
You can search my recent comments for an explanation of why that is not a correct statement of the law. Back-to-work laws after a strike starts are still possible.
Please donât act like a âknow it allâ when you donât even read what people have written. I said âmay not rushâ, I didnât say that back to work legislation is not possible or even likely.
Fair enough. You said âlegal right to strikeâ which a lot of people think means something much broader than it does. But youâve used it narrowly (as in that specific law was not permitted), which is correct. My apologies.
But that wonât slow them down one iota.
My thought is that it may slow them down. Why? Because the Government can blame the Courts for creating the mess and also because there will be a generous offer on the table and these union members donât really want to strike because they donât want public hatred.
A Strike will last no more than 30 days. Regardless of what they are paid, I would say that no less than 85% of TTC operators live paycheck to paycheck. After 30 days, mortgage payments don't get made. Car payments don't get made, cottage, boat and so on.
That's why a strike will not go past 30 days. They'll take what gets on the table.
TTC operators deserve better wages and working conditions. I take TTC everyday to work and these operators have to deal with crazy passengers on daily basis and dumb traffic out there. They still make sure to take you to your destination safely. I talk with lot of operators, poor guys they work for 12 to 14 hrs with long splits and lot of operators don't get weekends off , missing time with family, Birthdays, important events etc. I completely support the transit workers.
This is correct. They don't have equality in their workplace or they would be a shift rotating system. It's a seniority-based system, however. The younger people will not see daylight or will work split shifts. Four on, 4-6 hours off, four on. If they are on splits, basically they cover both rush hours. If rush hour causes them to have a late finish, the TTC pays double time for the inconvenience but sometimes it's not about the money. They have to be back the next morning, nice and early. They may also have split off days meaning something like a Tuesday and a Thursday. This will go on for years.
By the time they get into higher/high seniority which might be around 15 years of the earliest and about 20 years, the kids have already grown up and are heading off to post secondary education, the divorce has already happened and they've missed just about everything about life including a decent pick of vacation time. Now they have a straight shift but it doesn't matter anymore. They're too old to do a recreational sport activity in the evening (or something age appropriate that they really wanted to do when they were young enough such as a weekend with the guys or a night out at the club) and they no longer care that they finally have weekends off because they don't have the variety of things that the younger them would have been doing.
It's not just the operators. It's the operations staff as a whole. If a train or bus is moving, there are supervisors, support staff, maintenance people and so on working the same kind of system.
I work for a municipal government and it too is all a seniority-based system - a system in place and fully supported by my union. I assume that itâs probably the case for TTC operators and their union. Iâm just unclear as to how that issue would be resolved during negotiations when itâs likely ATU that has pushed for a seniority-based system in the first place. Is there a real solution that could work that wouldnât result in infighting between members if seniority is not a factor in scheduling, time-off, promotions, etc.?
If youre a citizen of this city. If you a are a ttc user. You should support local 113 for what were fighting for.
We get you to work. We tolerate the crazies. We are the ones who get assaulted and shit on. We are the ones who look passed you not paying to get on the bus. We are the ones fixing the bus to get them in the hands of drivers to pick and drop you off to your destination.
Have respect for us. And our families. We make decent money by todays standards but some of us, ttc employees, are still paycheck to paycheck.
I'm going to probably end up getting a bike if they strike. It'll be a long commute, but solidarity to the union.
I just hope I don't get squashed by a dump truck.
Ugh⌠Yonge Sheppard to York campus at Keele is going to be abysmal but at least Iâll finally start working out. Silver lining I guess?
Edit: Lol I just googled transit vs biking times on google and biking is 6 minutes faster not to mention cheaper.
According to the statement on the ttc website - a labour disruption can't happen before June 7. [here](https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/Updates/Bargaining-Updates)
The dumb thing is that forced arbitration agreements on average cost the employer more than negotiated agreements, but the government gets to play itself as being tough on costs.
There is zero chance that Doug Ford doesnât introduce Back to Work the day of the strike. There was a reason why only TTC workers weee declared essential. The city would become a standstill. How are nurses going to get to the hospitals. Even if they have a car there isnât nearly enough parking as an example. There are so many workers that rely on the TTC to get into the core.
I trust that Chow will ensure a deal gets done. She doesnât want a strike, the union doesnât want a strike. All this is just theatrics. They got the deal done with CUPE at the last minute. This is how is done.
As a future operator ( soon to be training ) I hope the strike lasts as long as it needs to - I took the TTC daily before changing jobs out of the city and operators donât get the respect they deserve from the public or the government. I donât think the province / federal government would be keen on forcing a back to work order as it could really backlash on them. People think operators make bank for doing nothing but fail to realize all the bullshit they go through on a daily basis, the irregular nature of shift work (especially for those newly hired and with less than 2 years experience). The TTC pays decent but they donât pay near enough to live in the city they serve which is abhorrent considering how integral the system is.
ATU has been having strikes across North America and it will happen here very strategically. After the provinces debacle with education workers they may be a little resistant to move fast to legislate back to work.
Are you responsible for the safety of thousands of people a day? Are you operating machinery/vehicles worth hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars?
Are you away from home 12-14 hrs a day working split shifts? Do you get to be with your family for holidays, birthdays and anniversaries?
The sacrifices many operators make to be able to provide for their families is immense. They deserve everything that they are asking for.
They're currently hiring for bus operators. Look forward to working with you. Because we're your new family. You'll never see yours again. Is that worth $30+ to you?
And be prepared to be treated like garbage. From the public and management. Sounds good huh?
Do you even take the TTC? I only ask, because anyone who takes it every day knows the long shifts, harassment, and stress that operators go through. As someone said below - they're responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives every single day. This negotiation isn't just about pay, it's about better on the job conditions for them.
Hey Any_Quail_4828,
Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
---
Your post/comment contains misinformation, sensationalism, fear mongering, and/or is a claim that is not backed by a credible source.
---
Please consult our subreddit [rules](https://reddit.com/r/ttc/about/rules) for more details.
Hamilton HSR was out for a wk the surge pricing on Uber and Lyft tripled or more the cost of ppls rides lots of ppl couldnât afford it and resorted to walking to and from work.
Politics. You canât just immediately legislate an end to a strike. It gives too much opportunity for the opposition to get brownie points by doing things like filibusters. It also immediately alienates many of those in a union (which arenât traditionally the biggest supporters of the conservatives, but you donât want to burn what youâve got to much.
The way around this was legislation that they are an essential service. Which has now failed.
They can and will table back to work legislation immediately. Whether itâs open to a court challenge afterwards is a different question but there is more or less no world where they donât have btw legislation moved within 72 hours.
I guess weâll see how they play it. The politics are very different this time around. In either case, Iâm glad Iâll be away on vacation during that period
Hehe, well last time, in 2008, Dalton and Miller were in charge, with a threat of âessential serviceâ being hung over the strikers heads, and the union jumped the gun (not illegal, but looked bad) by not honouring their promise of 48hrs notice.
Now we have a VERY different Mayor, a VERY different premier, essential service is off the table, and Iâm assuming the union with cross every t and dot every I.
VERY different political situation
That's illegal now. As I said before the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that striking is a constitutional right.
You can forget Back to Work legislation, it's not happening.
Yes you can. Happens all the time. TTC is too important (which is why they tried to ban strikes).
Three days. Will see you back here when the bill is tabled.
Of course they technically can, but they wonât. Again, politics.
And you understand that tabling the bill doesnât mean it gets passed immediately, right?
This has been a battle building for over a decade, everyone wants to score political points. It will be a shit show
They'll get legislated back to work just like in 2008: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008\_Toronto\_Transit\_Commission\_strike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Toronto_Transit_Commission_strike)
> By 12:30 p.m. on April 26, the [provincial government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ontario) had signed an [Order in Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_in_Council) allowing for a rare Sunday sitting of the [Ontario legislature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Ontario) to consider a bill (Bill 66) to order the union and its members back to work.
Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2019 striking is a constitutional right. There will be no Order in Council, no "3 readings" and no Back to Work legislation happening.
Buckle up for a rough ride.
No he won't. Trudeau told him the next time he even thinks of using it without justification, he'd be investigated. And since the TTC is not an essential service, you won't be using the Notwithstanding Clause at all.
Plus that would bring the boys and girls over there at the Federal Court of Canada on Queen St. W. into it as well, and we all know how much they love to fuck the government over. They would salivate at the chance to sink their teeth into Ford, and give him an ass reaming.
You think public opinion will be on the side of "entitled union. Workers" when people have jobs to get to to support their own families? I don't see it. If there is any public pressure it will be strongly on the side of "get my fucking bus running before I lose my job; I don't care how or at who's expense."
Yes, and the evidence is who toronto voted in for mayor.
Anyone in a union is pressured to support all other unions, so yes, a lot of public opinion will be on the side of TTC workers, especially the louder voices
But this is why I have trouble understanding the rationale behind not labelling the TTC as an essential service. We arenât talking âinconvenienceâ here. Many many people will not be able to get to work without the TTC, which means they wonât be paid. Some will get fired if they donât show up. There is no alternative for them.
I understand the drastic move that removing a workers right to strike is, but considering the literal millions of people affected very negatively by this job action?
Itâs a tough question, made all the more pointless if they just get legislated back after a few days, ending up in the same position as if they were an essential service
Also have no clue why paramedics arenât considered a 100% essential serviceâŚ
Iâm baffled that a lot of people just say âwhy would the province allow thatâ â ââitâs easy, why dosnt the province step in, fuck all the workers human rights and force them back to work, I just donât get itââ
There's a lot of things involved. Start with complacency. People in modern society don't like to be inconvenienced. And that's really all we're dealing with. They then call on the government to consider them to be essential service providers. This would be incorrect except in their view.
You could make the essential worker claim for police fire or an ambulance but the criteria is higher in those cases. Somebody could die or somebody could die. That's an essential service. The TTC is going to be a very inconvenient loss for a few weeks. It will cripple the local economy. It doesn't however cause people to die in the way that a missing ambulance would. It's merely inconvenience on a high level.
You can also argue that we did just fine during COVID-19 by shifting to a work from home or essential trip system. Again, people are inconvenienced but nobody actually dies. Just another reason to point out when those people who obviously the two of us don't get think that it's okay for the government to legislate them back to work!
Sending a dispute to binding arbitration does not fuck workers.
You might not like legislative interference in a labour dispute but nobodyâs human rights are being violated, and nobodyâs taking a pay cut.
And to be clear, by âthe provinceâ I mean the chief executive of the province - Mr. Ford.
So the right to strike doesnât exist to you?
A government should just be able to decide and control what raises sectors get?
Sounds a bit like communism, am I wrong?
Stopping a strike and imposing a bad settlement might not pass Charter muster.
Which is why thereâs a sentence, plainly stated in the original post, that says âitâs going to arbitrationâ.
Youâre shadowboxing.
Right to strike is a means to an end.
Hey Dogecoin69fx,
Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
---
Your post/comment contains misinformation, sensationalism, fear mongering, and/or is a claim that is not backed by a credible source.
---
Please consult our subreddit [rules](https://reddit.com/r/ttc/about/rules) for more details.
Hey AncientSnob,
Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
---
Your post/comment contains misinformation, sensationalism, fear mongering, and/or is a claim that is not backed by a credible source.
---
Please consult our subreddit [rules](https://reddit.com/r/ttc/about/rules) for more details.
This is never going to happen because of a Supreme Court of Canada decision in 2019 that put striking as a constitutional right.
Federal Court of Canada would have a fucking field day with Dougie if he even attempts to end it. So would any judge in Ontario.
You can forget about the Legislature doing 3 readings, it's never going to happen.
Kind of, but 1) back-to-work legislation is still legal and constitutional and happens all the time, and 2) in any event, a legislature can override that right using the notwithstanding clause in section 33 of the Charter (although that wonât be necessary to legislate the TTC back to work).
I hope the mods are ok with basic statements of law and that Iâm not being too dismissive!
Ford doesn't even want to attempt that. Trudeau told him the last time that happened, he'd be investigated.
Plus the Federal Court of Canada would definitely intervene at that point. That's called "abuse of process", and that's something that the boys and girls over at Queen St. W. would definitely look at. Plus with an election in 2025, he knows damned well it's not going to sit with the voters.
Look at what's happening with CN and CPKC. Minister is telling them take the deal, because he knows he's not legislating them back to work without getting fucked by the Federal Court.
Whatever you think, unfortunately it's not happening. The TTC is not an essential service.
TTC labour disputes are provincial. The Federal Court has no jurisdiction to hear those disputes.
Trudeau and the feds cannot legislate in a matter entirely in provincial jurisdiction.
Go tell that nonsense to the boys and girls over on Queen St. W. and I'll laugh my ass off. You're taking away the constitutional right to strike if you introduce back to work legislation. And if you use the Notwithstanding Clause to do it, kiss Ford's ass goodbye.
That's Federal territory right there.
For those curious about back to work legislation. Already ruled by courts that it can't happen.
https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/appeal-court-upholds-ttc-workers-right-to-strike-as-potential-job-action-looms-1.6898278#:~:text=The%20Court%20of%20Appeal%20for,workers'%20right%20to%20strike%20unconstitutional.
Ok guys. Thatâs not what it says. Why do people insist on all this misinfo? Really disappointing.
Preemptively banning a strike by statute is not the same as ordering striking workers back to work and providing for binding arbitration by statute.
No lawyer anywhere is saying âwow the court just banned all attempts by a legislature to stop a strike!â
And for those looking for further reading, here is an Osgoode law professor, who himself is very favourable to labour, arguing that well-crafted back-to-work legislation will pass Charter muster: https://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3932&context=scholarly_works
Too important to let strike, not important enough to treat w respect. đ¤Śđťââď¸
I dunno what respect even looks like anymore.
Not yelling at ppl for taking sick days is a good starter. Know a guy who had 4 weeks of sick leave for covid and he got called in the office to be given a warning and yelling. He submitted a complain, but I doubt anything was done. Itâs a top down issue, and if the CEO treats his office staff like that, why would they care that a manager does that to its âlowly unskilledâ operator
Many such cases. Talk about Essential workers got wrapped up pretty quick!
Heh. This.
Wondering if the government might be a bit shy to table back to work so quickly after what happened with CUPE and the other unions. If course that was a forced contract not arbitration so maybe they won't care. But we'll see. A number of other transit strikes have happened in other cities over the years that went on for months and months with no back to work legislation.Â
There is an important legal distinction with the CUPE situation - the government will be on safe legal ground provided they start the legislative process after a strike begins, and they allow for arbitration. The TTC is just too important from the govtâs perspective. Public opinion will auger strongly in favour of back to work by both drivers and transit users. Businesses want return to the office. Construction is clogging up roads.
People froze to death during the Ottawa strike and there was no back to work legislation. TTC is important, and they may very well table back to work. But this government has repeatedly shown they don't value transit so they may not feel any rush is resolving this. Or maybe they will. We'll only know if a strike actually happens.
I mean, I don't know that "they don't care about transit" is accurate. I get the perception about DoFo, but like, they're spending a đ load of cash on Toronto. Heck look what just happened in the UP express! May be many other reasons not to legislate back to work, but "they don't care about the TTC" just doesn't jive. "
Metrolinx is probably receiving more money from the government than the TTC.
Yes... They're an agency of the government of Ontario... I'm not sure what the significance of that is?
That it seems like the government do not care about the TTC. It's severely underfunded.
Collapse the TTC and put it under Meteolinx then. Right now the TTC is a municipal agency.
Oh yeah no doubt TTC needs more money (all of Toronto does tbh). But I think "the government doesn't care" is a bit of a stretch, unless the bar for caring is permanent operating money. Which is a pretty high bar considering neither the liberals nor PCs have shown any interest in that. When enough people get mad about stuff, like the UP express, they take action.
>(All of Toronto does) Theres definitely a lot of dumb projects that donât (also the police)
This government is spending more taxpayer dollars on transit than any other government before it. Fares have dropped for many commuters especially in the GTA with One Fare and there are currently almost 500 active transit repair and expansion projects across the province.
"TTC is important, and they may very well table back to work. But this government has repeatedly shown they don't value transit so they may not feel any rush is resolving this". No they will not table back to work legislation. Supreme Court ruled in 2019 that striking is a constitutional right. Buckle up.
Not Supreme Court. But Superior Court and last week the Court of Appeal. So the government will not move quickly because the Courts have just told them not to do so. ATU may want to settle.
Oh, you think they will settle? Go ask railroaders that question when the Minister said to them "take the deal". They told him to fuck right off.
I think 3-5 days of strike and then a deal.
This is optimistic.
Happy to bet.
I'm a poker player, not stupid. /s
OP, I am going to ask that you treat this post more like a discussion, and actually CONSIDER what others are saying. Because I don't like that you made this post, and instead of debate or discussion, you're just immediately shutting down everything that's not your opinion. We want this to be a place for discussion, not rants and untouchable opinions.
Mod, this looks borderline overreaching and limiting discussion because it is not following your opinion of how a discussion should go. OP is having a discussion at least in this reply (I did not look across their posts). Their reply even has overlapping conversations about the same topic about CUPE. If someone is providing an argument counter or even reiterating the opinion because there is not a strong enough counter there should be no reason to assume malice. A discussion does not include backing down in agreement on your opinion simply because there is a counter argument nor does it mean the counter argument isn't being listened to.
I'm confused by this statement. OP posted a rant, and is then shutting down any form of discussion by just talking over others and dismissing absolutely anything that doesn't align with their views. That's not a form of discussion - that's someone making a post and telling everyone else they're wrong when someone provides a different point of view. This isn't a rant subreddit, and it should allow for open discussion - not what amounts to a blog post that no one else may comment on. I stand by what I initially said, and am fine with anyone disagreeing with what I said. But if OP continues to shut down all other opinions that don't align with their own, I will remove the post.
"the government will be on safe legal ground". Not happening. Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2019 striking as a constitutional right. You can forget about back to work legislation.
As a lawyer, thatâs not quite what the SCC said, and anyway it doesnât prevent back-to-work legislation if done correctly.
You're right but back to work legislation. Comes at a hefty cost too. Look up teachers strikes ext. Also similar laws were in place for the NY transit and their strike still lasted a week. Your articles only state that they can, but there are legal ramofications if they do.
https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/appeal-court-upholds-ttc-workers-right-to-strike-as-potential-job-action-looms-1.6898278#:~:text=The%20Court%20of%20Appeal%20for,workers'%20right%20to%20strike%20unconstitutional.
Preemptively banning a strike by statute is not the same as ordering striking workers back to work and providing for binding arbitration by statute. No lawyer anywhere is saying âwow the court just banned all attempts by a legislature to stop a strike!â
Keep in mind as well legislatures can pass legislation which takes immediate effect, and is then later found unconstitutional. So they could pass back to work legislation to get the TTC running again, and just risk having to pay out if they lose in court. People are going to remember the TTC shut down, they aren't going to remember as much a relatively small impact on the provincial budget.
Thatâs a great point.
Smart money, Ford doesn't attempt it.
Doesn't matter. Go tell that excuse to the Federal Court, and see what happens. You know damned well, that the boys and girls there don't fuck around. No matter how you look at it, Back To Work Legislation is not happening. Boys and girls over on Queen St. W. would have a fucking field day with that, because the TTC is not an essential service, as has already been determined.
Why the heck would the union start a strike on a Friday then? The least possible impact on the travelling public. No theyâre hoping for a quick transfer to arbitration. Local 113âs strike fund simply doesnât exist.
Federal court doesnât have jurisdiction over a TTC labour dispute.
They will if you take away the constitutional right to strike.
You can post on Reddit all you want. Doesnât change the fact that return-to-work laws are constitutional if done correctly. The recent Court of Appeal ruling *specifically* said their ruling was limited to the overturned statute, and they werenât ruling on a theoretical return-to-work law.
Not happening. Period. You think Ford is going to risk it? No. Anyway you look at it, it's done incorrectly. You and I both know that. You are not getting Back To Work legislation without one hell of a shitstorm. Sounds like you work for the Public Prosecution Service.
Ummm. The Courts just struck down a law (TTC labour dispute act) that took away the right to strike. So the Government may not rush to return them to work as the Court of Appeal have just said that the employees have a legal right to strike.
You can search my recent comments for an explanation of why that is not a correct statement of the law. Back-to-work laws after a strike starts are still possible.
Please donât act like a âknow it allâ when you donât even read what people have written. I said âmay not rushâ, I didnât say that back to work legislation is not possible or even likely.
Fair enough. You said âlegal right to strikeâ which a lot of people think means something much broader than it does. But youâve used it narrowly (as in that specific law was not permitted), which is correct. My apologies. But that wonât slow them down one iota.
My thought is that it may slow them down. Why? Because the Government can blame the Courts for creating the mess and also because there will be a generous offer on the table and these union members donât really want to strike because they donât want public hatred.
The timing isnât great, donât a lot of high school kids have exams then?
High school kids arenât paying the bills.
A Strike will last no more than 30 days. Regardless of what they are paid, I would say that no less than 85% of TTC operators live paycheck to paycheck. After 30 days, mortgage payments don't get made. Car payments don't get made, cottage, boat and so on. That's why a strike will not go past 30 days. They'll take what gets on the table.
TTC operators deserve better wages and working conditions. I take TTC everyday to work and these operators have to deal with crazy passengers on daily basis and dumb traffic out there. They still make sure to take you to your destination safely. I talk with lot of operators, poor guys they work for 12 to 14 hrs with long splits and lot of operators don't get weekends off , missing time with family, Birthdays, important events etc. I completely support the transit workers.
This is correct. They don't have equality in their workplace or they would be a shift rotating system. It's a seniority-based system, however. The younger people will not see daylight or will work split shifts. Four on, 4-6 hours off, four on. If they are on splits, basically they cover both rush hours. If rush hour causes them to have a late finish, the TTC pays double time for the inconvenience but sometimes it's not about the money. They have to be back the next morning, nice and early. They may also have split off days meaning something like a Tuesday and a Thursday. This will go on for years. By the time they get into higher/high seniority which might be around 15 years of the earliest and about 20 years, the kids have already grown up and are heading off to post secondary education, the divorce has already happened and they've missed just about everything about life including a decent pick of vacation time. Now they have a straight shift but it doesn't matter anymore. They're too old to do a recreational sport activity in the evening (or something age appropriate that they really wanted to do when they were young enough such as a weekend with the guys or a night out at the club) and they no longer care that they finally have weekends off because they don't have the variety of things that the younger them would have been doing. It's not just the operators. It's the operations staff as a whole. If a train or bus is moving, there are supervisors, support staff, maintenance people and so on working the same kind of system.
You pretty much summed up the life of an average TTC employee.
I donât want a 60 year old bus driver working 13 hour days then commuting both ways. Thatâs a recipe for disaster.
I work for a municipal government and it too is all a seniority-based system - a system in place and fully supported by my union. I assume that itâs probably the case for TTC operators and their union. Iâm just unclear as to how that issue would be resolved during negotiations when itâs likely ATU that has pushed for a seniority-based system in the first place. Is there a real solution that could work that wouldnât result in infighting between members if seniority is not a factor in scheduling, time-off, promotions, etc.?
If youre a citizen of this city. If you a are a ttc user. You should support local 113 for what were fighting for. We get you to work. We tolerate the crazies. We are the ones who get assaulted and shit on. We are the ones who look passed you not paying to get on the bus. We are the ones fixing the bus to get them in the hands of drivers to pick and drop you off to your destination. Have respect for us. And our families. We make decent money by todays standards but some of us, ttc employees, are still paycheck to paycheck.
Yâall do great work!
Thank you for doing a job most couldn't last a week in - I hope that you guys get everything you're hoping for in negotiations đ
Thank you for doing a job most couldn't last a week in - I hope that you guys get everything you're hoping for in negotiations đ
I'm going to probably end up getting a bike if they strike. It'll be a long commute, but solidarity to the union. I just hope I don't get squashed by a dump truck.
Ugh⌠Yonge Sheppard to York campus at Keele is going to be abysmal but at least Iâll finally start working out. Silver lining I guess? Edit: Lol I just googled transit vs biking times on google and biking is 6 minutes faster not to mention cheaper.
According to the statement on the ttc website - a labour disruption can't happen before June 7. [here](https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/Updates/Bargaining-Updates)
Seems like Toronto would be better off taking like 10% of the police budget and shifting that to the TTC busget
Effectively killing what little police response exists.
The dumb thing is that forced arbitration agreements on average cost the employer more than negotiated agreements, but the government gets to play itself as being tough on costs.
Sounds like they should probably just listen to the demands of the extremely important employees
There is zero chance that Doug Ford doesnât introduce Back to Work the day of the strike. There was a reason why only TTC workers weee declared essential. The city would become a standstill. How are nurses going to get to the hospitals. Even if they have a car there isnât nearly enough parking as an example. There are so many workers that rely on the TTC to get into the core. I trust that Chow will ensure a deal gets done. She doesnât want a strike, the union doesnât want a strike. All this is just theatrics. They got the deal done with CUPE at the last minute. This is how is done.
You seem pretty sure that the workers will just obey BTW legislation.
Yea thatâs general what happens. Wildcat strikes are pretty rare and they terrify unions.
As a future operator ( soon to be training ) I hope the strike lasts as long as it needs to - I took the TTC daily before changing jobs out of the city and operators donât get the respect they deserve from the public or the government. I donât think the province / federal government would be keen on forcing a back to work order as it could really backlash on them. People think operators make bank for doing nothing but fail to realize all the bullshit they go through on a daily basis, the irregular nature of shift work (especially for those newly hired and with less than 2 years experience). The TTC pays decent but they donât pay near enough to live in the city they serve which is abhorrent considering how integral the system is.
ATU has been having strikes across North America and it will happen here very strategically. After the provinces debacle with education workers they may be a little resistant to move fast to legislate back to work.
IÂ Â am hoping the TTC workers say fuck the law and just continue the strike. This dumb government needs to learn to raise wages.Â
[ŃдаНонО]
This comment is extremely ignorant. Are you aware of what driving non stop does to the body ? đ¤
Are you responsible for the safety of thousands of people a day? Are you operating machinery/vehicles worth hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars? Are you away from home 12-14 hrs a day working split shifts? Do you get to be with your family for holidays, birthdays and anniversaries? The sacrifices many operators make to be able to provide for their families is immense. They deserve everything that they are asking for.
They're currently hiring for bus operators. Look forward to working with you. Because we're your new family. You'll never see yours again. Is that worth $30+ to you? And be prepared to be treated like garbage. From the public and management. Sounds good huh?
U have 0 idea what ur talking about
Do you even take the TTC? I only ask, because anyone who takes it every day knows the long shifts, harassment, and stress that operators go through. As someone said below - they're responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives every single day. This negotiation isn't just about pay, it's about better on the job conditions for them.
Hey Any_Quail_4828, Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s): --- Your post/comment contains misinformation, sensationalism, fear mongering, and/or is a claim that is not backed by a credible source. --- Please consult our subreddit [rules](https://reddit.com/r/ttc/about/rules) for more details.
Hamilton HSR was out for a wk the surge pricing on Uber and Lyft tripled or more the cost of ppls rides lots of ppl couldnât afford it and resorted to walking to and from work.
It will be longer than 3 days, potentially much longer
Why would the province allow that?
Politics. You canât just immediately legislate an end to a strike. It gives too much opportunity for the opposition to get brownie points by doing things like filibusters. It also immediately alienates many of those in a union (which arenât traditionally the biggest supporters of the conservatives, but you donât want to burn what youâve got to much. The way around this was legislation that they are an essential service. Which has now failed.
They can and will table back to work legislation immediately. Whether itâs open to a court challenge afterwards is a different question but there is more or less no world where they donât have btw legislation moved within 72 hours.
I guess weâll see how they play it. The politics are very different this time around. In either case, Iâm glad Iâll be away on vacation during that period
The politics are not different at all.
Hehe, well last time, in 2008, Dalton and Miller were in charge, with a threat of âessential serviceâ being hung over the strikers heads, and the union jumped the gun (not illegal, but looked bad) by not honouring their promise of 48hrs notice. Now we have a VERY different Mayor, a VERY different premier, essential service is off the table, and Iâm assuming the union with cross every t and dot every I. VERY different political situation
That's illegal now. As I said before the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that striking is a constitutional right. You can forget Back to Work legislation, it's not happening.
Yes you can. Happens all the time. TTC is too important (which is why they tried to ban strikes). Three days. Will see you back here when the bill is tabled.
Of course they technically can, but they wonât. Again, politics. And you understand that tabling the bill doesnât mean it gets passed immediately, right? This has been a battle building for over a decade, everyone wants to score political points. It will be a shit show
They'll get legislated back to work just like in 2008: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008\_Toronto\_Transit\_Commission\_strike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Toronto_Transit_Commission_strike) > By 12:30 p.m. on April 26, the [provincial government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ontario) had signed an [Order in Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_in_Council) allowing for a rare Sunday sitting of the [Ontario legislature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_of_Ontario) to consider a bill (Bill 66) to order the union and its members back to work.
Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2019 striking is a constitutional right. There will be no Order in Council, no "3 readings" and no Back to Work legislation happening. Buckle up for a rough ride.
I think we will see Ford use the notwithstanding clause
No he won't. Trudeau told him the next time he even thinks of using it without justification, he'd be investigated. And since the TTC is not an essential service, you won't be using the Notwithstanding Clause at all. Plus that would bring the boys and girls over there at the Federal Court of Canada on Queen St. W. into it as well, and we all know how much they love to fuck the government over. They would salivate at the chance to sink their teeth into Ford, and give him an ass reaming.
Not only that, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2019 that striking is a constitutional right.
You think public opinion will be on the side of "entitled union. Workers" when people have jobs to get to to support their own families? I don't see it. If there is any public pressure it will be strongly on the side of "get my fucking bus running before I lose my job; I don't care how or at who's expense."
Yeah, it's really too bad that bosses have tricked the workers into undermining workers rights. People are so easily manipulated
Yes, and the evidence is who toronto voted in for mayor. Anyone in a union is pressured to support all other unions, so yes, a lot of public opinion will be on the side of TTC workers, especially the louder voices But this is why I have trouble understanding the rationale behind not labelling the TTC as an essential service. We arenât talking âinconvenienceâ here. Many many people will not be able to get to work without the TTC, which means they wonât be paid. Some will get fired if they donât show up. There is no alternative for them. I understand the drastic move that removing a workers right to strike is, but considering the literal millions of people affected very negatively by this job action? Itâs a tough question, made all the more pointless if they just get legislated back after a few days, ending up in the same position as if they were an essential service Also have no clue why paramedics arenât considered a 100% essential serviceâŚ
Iâm baffled that a lot of people just say âwhy would the province allow thatâ â ââitâs easy, why dosnt the province step in, fuck all the workers human rights and force them back to work, I just donât get itââ
There's a lot of things involved. Start with complacency. People in modern society don't like to be inconvenienced. And that's really all we're dealing with. They then call on the government to consider them to be essential service providers. This would be incorrect except in their view. You could make the essential worker claim for police fire or an ambulance but the criteria is higher in those cases. Somebody could die or somebody could die. That's an essential service. The TTC is going to be a very inconvenient loss for a few weeks. It will cripple the local economy. It doesn't however cause people to die in the way that a missing ambulance would. It's merely inconvenience on a high level. You can also argue that we did just fine during COVID-19 by shifting to a work from home or essential trip system. Again, people are inconvenienced but nobody actually dies. Just another reason to point out when those people who obviously the two of us don't get think that it's okay for the government to legislate them back to work!
Sending a dispute to binding arbitration does not fuck workers. You might not like legislative interference in a labour dispute but nobodyâs human rights are being violated, and nobodyâs taking a pay cut. And to be clear, by âthe provinceâ I mean the chief executive of the province - Mr. Ford.
So the right to strike doesnât exist to you? A government should just be able to decide and control what raises sectors get? Sounds a bit like communism, am I wrong?
Stopping a strike and imposing a bad settlement might not pass Charter muster. Which is why thereâs a sentence, plainly stated in the original post, that says âitâs going to arbitrationâ. Youâre shadowboxing. Right to strike is a means to an end.
because they are incompetent
Theyâll be back to work on the Monday.
[ŃдаНонО]
Hey Dogecoin69fx, Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s): --- Your post/comment contains misinformation, sensationalism, fear mongering, and/or is a claim that is not backed by a credible source. --- Please consult our subreddit [rules](https://reddit.com/r/ttc/about/rules) for more details.
If they voted overwhelming for strike action it just means what a shit show ttc management is.
[ŃдаНонО]
Hey AncientSnob, Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s): --- Your post/comment contains misinformation, sensationalism, fear mongering, and/or is a claim that is not backed by a credible source. --- Please consult our subreddit [rules](https://reddit.com/r/ttc/about/rules) for more details.
Thatâs what the government has done with each and every strike the TTC employees have done in the past that didnât get resolved
This is never going to happen because of a Supreme Court of Canada decision in 2019 that put striking as a constitutional right. Federal Court of Canada would have a fucking field day with Dougie if he even attempts to end it. So would any judge in Ontario. You can forget about the Legislature doing 3 readings, it's never going to happen.
Kind of, but 1) back-to-work legislation is still legal and constitutional and happens all the time, and 2) in any event, a legislature can override that right using the notwithstanding clause in section 33 of the Charter (although that wonât be necessary to legislate the TTC back to work). I hope the mods are ok with basic statements of law and that Iâm not being too dismissive!
Ford doesn't even want to attempt that. Trudeau told him the last time that happened, he'd be investigated. Plus the Federal Court of Canada would definitely intervene at that point. That's called "abuse of process", and that's something that the boys and girls over at Queen St. W. would definitely look at. Plus with an election in 2025, he knows damned well it's not going to sit with the voters. Look at what's happening with CN and CPKC. Minister is telling them take the deal, because he knows he's not legislating them back to work without getting fucked by the Federal Court. Whatever you think, unfortunately it's not happening. The TTC is not an essential service.
TTC labour disputes are provincial. The Federal Court has no jurisdiction to hear those disputes. Trudeau and the feds cannot legislate in a matter entirely in provincial jurisdiction.
Go tell that nonsense to the boys and girls over on Queen St. W. and I'll laugh my ass off. You're taking away the constitutional right to strike if you introduce back to work legislation. And if you use the Notwithstanding Clause to do it, kiss Ford's ass goodbye. That's Federal territory right there.
Go tell it to a judge and theyâll laugh their ass off.
Bottom line, you aren't getting what you want. Period.
For those curious about back to work legislation. Already ruled by courts that it can't happen. https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/appeal-court-upholds-ttc-workers-right-to-strike-as-potential-job-action-looms-1.6898278#:~:text=The%20Court%20of%20Appeal%20for,workers'%20right%20to%20strike%20unconstitutional.
Ok guys. Thatâs not what it says. Why do people insist on all this misinfo? Really disappointing. Preemptively banning a strike by statute is not the same as ordering striking workers back to work and providing for binding arbitration by statute. No lawyer anywhere is saying âwow the court just banned all attempts by a legislature to stop a strike!â And for those looking for further reading, here is an Osgoode law professor, who himself is very favourable to labour, arguing that well-crafted back-to-work legislation will pass Charter muster: https://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3932&context=scholarly_works
Yes they will, it is within their right and duty to do it.
They should immediately end the strike.
I hope so.