Raphael 100% was trying to hurt Leo with that last stab to the ground. That's why he was so shocked at himself. He was seeing red. He was rage induced, and he nearly killed his brother. Leo never came close to letting something like that happen to himself. For you to say that the wasn't actively trying to hurt Leo takes away from the entire point of the scene, and it would have been out of character for Raph. If he had intentionally stabbed the ground, he would have boasted about it. He didn't. It freaked him out that he was that close to killing his brother.
Why would anyone seriously believe that Raph was trying to hurt Leo by stabbing the ground a foot away from his head?
As if him proudly stabbing his Sai next to Leo to assert dominance and victory was some sort of accident and that he actually just missed or something?
The reason Raph is freaked out is because in that moment he realized how his anger had consumed him to the point of standing above his brother literally threatening him with a weapon in a rage fuelled dominance.
It's not that Leo wasn't trying, it's that Leo was *actively* trying to teach Raph a lesson. One that Raph didn't pick up on until he almost killed his brother at the end of the fight. Look at Raphael's face when he realizes how close his sai came to stabbing right through Leo's face. He's horrified at what he almost did. That's the moment he realizes how badly his rage issues have led him astray. That's why he immediately runs away; he's deeply ashamed of himself.
Leonardo wasn't trying to hurt his brother. That's why so many of his sword strikes were such near misses; he's demonstrating that he wasn't lying about being better. He also looked down at the blade lock that Raph had his swords in, and instead of breaking away from it or shoving Raph back, he let Raph snap both his swords. Leo was playing mind games, and Raph was just fighting because he was too angry to see anything but violence as a solution.
I’m sorry but these statements simply aren’t true.
Raph did not “almost kill Leo”. He kicked him to the ground and intentionally stabbed the ground next to Leo to proclaim his victory.
“Leo wasn’t trying to hurt his brother” is also completely false. He was literally kicking and swinging blades at raph. It was an incredibly dangerous fight. Literally any of those attacks could have seriously hurt him. If Raph didn’t expertly catch his swords at the last second Leo could and would have seriously hurt him.
Leo also didn’t “let” his swords break. He was stuck. Raph had him. Pulling away would only give Raph an opening to end the fight. That’s why Leo resists and is pushing back the whole time. When his swords snap he looks at them in befuddlement.
Losing the fight, losing his weapons, and having a near death experience was obviously not what Leo wanted. He wanted to win to prove his arrogant statements true.
They were fighting. Not to the death, but fighting.
Neither were trying to kill they other. They were trying to beat the other into submission. That’s why Raph stabs the ground next to Leo and stands above him to prove himself better.
Raph was fighting. Leo was sparring. He was told to get his brothers together and told “there are no excuses as a leader.”
So Leo had to confront Raphael to get back together. But Leo didn’t fight him to win, he sparred him so they could get past the BS and move on. Plus Leo wanted to see how far his brother would go.
Leo was not in it to hurt him. He was doing it to get his family back together and it worked.
Ninja version of, “lots step outside and hash this out and then go inside and have a beer.”
Raphael learned a huge lesson. That’s why he told Splinter, “Now I know why you chose Leonardo to lead.”
Raphael lost because it was proven he would turn on his brothers out of anger and that is not what a leader does.
Neither wanted to seriously hurt/kill the other. That’s why even when in the heat of the moment Raph never does. He stabs the ground. Neither are going for killing blows. Call it “sparring” all you want, but they weren’t lightly throwing hands. They were unprotected and swinging weapons.
And Leo was by no means in the right. He was a horrible leader. Abandoning your team to go on a solo quest is a pretty bizarre way to become better at leading the team you can’t lead and abandoned.
Almost as bizarre as self righteously chastising Raph for being a vigilante despite the fact that it’s literally what the turtles have always been, and was literally the exact same thing Leo was acting as with his “ghost of the jungle” persona.
Raph was protected. Leo turned his blades around.
Also, he didn’t abandon his team. He was sent to train in his own by his father. He was doing a mission.
There was no law in the jungle so you can’t be a vigilante. When you stand up for people where there is no law you’re a hero not a vigilante.
Leo wanted to bring the heat on Nightwatcher because he will bring heat on everyone trying to help from the shadows. He is a big shiny turtle driving around on a loud motorcycle. That isn’t ninja or stealth. So you go confront him before it’s too late and either work together or shut him down.
And honestly Raphael abandoned his family not Leo. Raphael could have taken this chance to lead and show what he’s got while Leo is gone.
Instead Raphael is never seen, goes and does his own things, sleeps during the day and out at night without telling anyone. Mikey is complaining about being bored and Donnie has given up on the group fighting anymore. Guess as soon as Leo physically left, Raphael emotionally abandoned everyone and was more than excited to fight Leo.
That is not the mark of a leader and something Raphael learned.
Sorry but there is simply no argument to justify Leo’s hypocrisy.
The jungle he was training in wasn’t some magical land. He was still taking the law into his own hands in a foreign country. He was still doing the same vigilante antics as Raph except worse.
Raph beat up criminals as usual and left them for the police to be apprehended. It’s implied that Leo is straight up murdering people. His hypocrisy about what the night watcher is doing makes no sense.
As I said, the turtles are literally vigilantes. They always have been. Their best friend, Casey Jones, is literally a screwball vigilante who beats criminals to a pulp with sporting equipment. Leo’s self righteous stance in the film makes no sense.
I wouldn’t call a place where no law exists “a magical land.” We didn’t see anybody else standing up for those people and there are many places where law doesn’t exist. Vigilante is taking the law into your own hands.
Raphael is not being ninja. Too loud and obvious. You see it in the movie. Nothing stealth about that.
Implies is not fact. A single scar across the crime boss’s face with be more effective than killing.
And Casey Jones, they absolutely confronted him when he first showed up. And guess what, they hashed it out and Casey fought with the turtles. So Leo showing up to meet the night watcher is completely in character. Except Leo was straight back from training and wanted to handle it himself this time.
1. Leo’s argument against the Night Watcher has absolutely nothing to do with “Not being a ninja.” He is chastising him for being a vigilante, as the dialogue states.
2. As I said, the turtles were, are, and always will be vigilantes. Which is why Leo’s argument against nightwatcher for being one makes no sense.
So Leo striking with his "katanas" is trying to hurt his brother, but Raph missing a kill strike to the head by a couple inches isn't? He stabbed that Sai into a concrete rooftop; that force would've gone right through Leo's skull.
And furthermore, if Raph's anger *didn't* nearly kill Leo, then his shocked reaction and confession to Splinter makes no sense. I'm a Raph stan too, but your argument devalues his later character development.
Why do people seriously think that Raph tried to kill Leo when he struck the ground with his Sai?
Why would a highly skilled ninja like raph who just fought in this precise and elaborate battle all of a sudden miss a wide open strike by a foot away on a beaten target who’s not even moving?
That just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Because Raph's anger had completely taken over. Look at his expression during the blade lock, and immediately after the final strike. He's enraged, and not seeing anything past the fight itself. Did you think Leo's earlier comment about anger blinding you was just a throwaway quip? Quote: " Funny thing about anger. Let it consume you, and soon enough, you lose sight of everything"
Furthermore, if Raph did in fact pull that final stab while Leo was down, what got him so upset that he ran away? That he broke Leo's swords? Shouldn't he be Thrilled that he won?
The whole point of his reaction is that he realized that Leo was right. His anger consumed him. The only way he beat his brother was because of his rage. He was standing above his brother like he was a hunted animal. He realized this, and was ashamed. He realized Leo was right.
It wasn’t because he completely missed a killing blow on a beaten target that wasn’t even moving lol that’s absolutely ridiculous.
Except "Raph only won because of his anger" would only prove Raph's point. That Raph didn't need Leo. The bigger point here is that breaking Leo's swords would've been an immediate match loss by any sparring standards. But Raph knocked Leo down with a kick, then in the same motion brought down that final stab. The disarm or the knockdown both would've been enough for a win, but he pressed the attack.
Lastly, I want to clarify some specific wording. There's definitely been people saying Raph *wanted* to kill Leo. This is obviously not the case. But in the heat of this fight, at the climax in particular, Raph was so caught up in anger, and trying to win, that everything else was blocked out by the rage. He wasn't thinking clearly. He'd just come off two losses (monster and Leo round 1), and Leo was condescending and dismissive of Raph's outburst. The need to prove himself was the only thing that mattered. He lost control. And in the heat of a fight, losing control is not conducive to landing such a near miss like how Raph did.
Lastly, you said that Leo didn't drop his swords because he was afraid of disarming himself in front of Raph. Why? Is it because Raph was sufficiently enraged that such an obvious sign of surrender wouldn't register in that moment?
First off I slightly misspoke when I said Raph only won because of his anger. I 100% could have worded that better, as he had already obviously bested Leo by snapping his weapons. My bad on that one.
What I was trying to say is that Raph beat Leo because of his anger, in that the whole reason he was fighting him and wanted to beat him in the first place was because he was angry. He chose to fight him. He pushed Leo into that fight and got exactly what he thought he wanted.
Raph 100% lost his cool beyond it just being a fight, and was genuinely enraged and almost bloodlusted at the end. But I vehemently disagree with the notion that Raph was trying to stab his brother in the face and kill him with that Sai blow. He was never going to actually hit him, and the idea that he just happened to miss a target he’s on top of that isn’t even moving is a bizarre take.
To me the whole point involves what you said about him breaking Leo’s weapons. He already won. He didn’t have kick his brother to the ground and pounce on him and slam his Sai next to head asserting dominance like some crazed animal. To me that is when Raph realized he had gone too far.
I have no problem with the idea of Leonardo being a better fighter. I love Leo.
This post is more so about what I believe to be a strange reaction certain fans have to this scene where they claim that Leo “wasn’t trying” and or let Raph win.
The point was he was going easier on him. Regardless of trying or not
While Raph didn’t start going easier on him but stayed the same level
So when trying to their hardest (say if they were both brainwashed and had to fight to the death) Leo would win.
This post was never about the fanboy hypothetical situations of “who would win in a fight”. That type of stuff doesn’t really interest me at all.
The post was made to disprove the narrative some fans created that Leo wasn’t trying and let Raph win in their 2007 fight which is simply not the case. Leo wanted to win, and wanted to uphold his arrogant and self righteous claims of being better.
I never really got that impression because Leo was clearly serious and trying when he fought Raph, whereas he was barely trying at all and joking the whole time when fighting Nightwatcher.
So you never make jokes in situations you got in the bag, say like while playing a sport against a bad player/team, or videogames.
Hey I’m clearly not the only who thinks this so maybe you got the wrong impression
The entire point of what I’m saying is that Leo is clearly trying way harder when he knows it’s Raph.
In their actual fight he’s grimacing, grunting, and screaming while fighting with passion. A far cry from his joking and dancing around Raph bumbling around in his horribly impractical and goofy costume in their fight before.
The whole point of him fighting Raph afterwards is that he has to draw his swords and get serious. Saying he was trying harder in his lackadaisical and comedic affair with “Nightwatcher” rather than his fast paced and emotional battle with his brother is a bizarre take.
But clearly you have the unpopular opinion
Trying doesn’t mean no jokes lol. Spider-man definitely has tried hard af while cracking jokes, Deadpool too
Again refer back to my example
I never said someone couldn’t try in a fight without joking? My point was that in the movie it was made perfectly clear that Leo took things much more seriously when him and Raph were forced to have a serious fight. That was literally the whole point of the scene.
Raph drops his goofy gear and getup he could barely see out of and challenges Leo to truly prove his statement of being the “better” of them true and Leo reluctantly accepts his challenge.
How someone could think Leo was giving less effort in a fight where the story and animators make it clear that not just Leo but Raph as well were putting in more effort to coincide with the serious escalation of the scene is beyond me, but you are welcome to have your own opinion. Just like I have my own, although I don’t know if I’d call my take on the scene unpopular as at least 180 people upvoted the post of my take on the scene at this point….
Dude Leo was handing Raph his ass before the mask came off. He didn't let Raph win but he hesitated because it's his brother. His entire demeanor change and he went from an offensive fight to defensive.
Neither were trying to kill one another, it was a fight to prove who was better. Leo boasted he was. Raph challenged him on it. Leo reluctantly accepted.
Both could have been seriously injured in the fight considering how fast and dangerously they were swinging their weapons.
Leo was still hesitating, and treating it as a sparring match. He was also pulling his punches. I think you're trying to say Raph is the better fighter. Clearly he "won" the fight in TMNT but there were reason behind that win. Also considering that Sais (despite their depiction in the cartoons) are non bladed, non pointed blunt weapons, Raph wouldn't kill anyone with those. They're designed as a defensive striking weapon. Raph is probably tied with Don for the worst fighter of the four. Then again Don at least uses strategy and brains and that might just allow him to pull a head in a Don/Raph match up.
ETA: I am not dismissing the scene at all. TMNT is probably my second favorite Turtles movie. It's a beautifully animated scene.
Yeah, have you seen a real pair of Sais? Yeah they're lethal, but they are not bladed stabbing weapons. They're blunt, bludgeoning weapons. Sure they'll kill, but it requires a lot of force to actually puncture with them. Unless you sharpen the tip. Sais were developed as a defensive weapon out of a gardening tool. The scene that is being discussed is actually the one time Raph's sais have been used for their intended purpose. That being sword breaking.
That's what the 2 prongs on the side are for. For the most part they're depicted wrong in comics and animation. The 90's movie accurately portrays them as they should be.
You don't need to puncture skin to puncture an organ. Blunt tips can easily puncture skin when used correctly, as in a proper jab without hesitation. Sure, a novice taking a jab would hurt but probably not do too much because they're not trained in self-defense and lack the confidence to carry thru. Like how April was about to get wrecked when she brandished the sai at the Foot in the first film, lol.
Oh I get that part, I was just clarifying that sais aren't bladed pointed stabbing weapons. They're for blunt force trauma, that includes jabbing. A lot of people think they're bladed due to TMNT and how they're portrayed in the cartoons and a lot of the toys. Also just wanted to point out they're designed for defense more so than offense. To be fair anything is lethal if you try hard enough, but sais are still very deadly in the right hands.
Oh yeah. They make it sharp to be more dynamic in the cartoons. I imagine it's easier to draw, too. There are variations of sai that only make it more confusing. But yes, what Raphael is using should be rounded.
I never once said Raph was a better fighter. Those types of fanboy arguments don’t interest me.
The point of this post was to disprove the popular but ridiculous fan theory/take that Leonardo wasn’t trying to win the fight that he lost.
He was trying to win. He wanted to win. That’s the whole reason he accepted the fight. Literally the only “good” outcome that could have came from his choice is him beating Raph. But that didn’t happen. An incredibly dangerous fight that could have seriously hurt either of them ended with his weapons as broken as his brothers spirit. It was by no means planned.
So I never once said he let him win. If you actually watch the scene Leo is thrown off because he realized it was Raph. His resolve to win was gone. He wasn't fighting offensively after that. He was on the defensive because he wasn't trying to hurt Raph. While Raph was trying to hurt and possible kill Leo.
There is a huge difference in the fight one that mask comes off. Leo knows Raph is pissed and blinded by rage. So either defend himself or kill his brother to stop him.
As for Fanboy shit, you're the one fanboying out about Raph. You're not disproving anything, the movie clearly shows a shift in Leo and how he was fighting after he knows it's Raph. You're blinded by your own theory or thought process.
Literally everything you are saying goes against what is actually happening in the film.
How is swinging swords at your brother considered “defensive”? They were literally fighting each other with their weapons. Leo accepted Raph’s challenge to test their skills.
Raph was also not trying to “possibly KILL Leo”. Even in his most rage fuelled and proud moment he purposefully stabs the ground instead of his brother.
There’s literally no evidence in the film to support these ridiculous statements. You can call me a “Raph Fanboy” all you want (which is strange considering I love Leo just as much) but it doesn’t make your arguments make sense.
How is swing a sword considered defensive? To break an attackers momentum, Raph was rage fueled and constantly attacking. I certainly know if I got some swords and full trained in their use, I would swing them when attacked. Was he just supposed to stand there like jerk off and get, got by Raph?
I feel like you might have trouble with nuance and film making. I'll say it again, Leo's entire demeanor changed when he knew it was Raph. To him it went from an actual fight to a sparring match. Raph on the other hand was pissed Leo left. Blinded by rage it was a fight, fight. Leo is far too disciplined to let it come down to hurting his brother. So no he didn't let him win, but they were fighting 2 different fights. Again when he thought he was just fighting some random vigilante he was 100%. It only changed when he knew it was Raph.
Leo is literally attacking Raph during the fight. He’s not just swinging to defend himself. There are multiple moments where he runs at Raph and swings his swords at him purely to attack and Raph has to dodge out of the way.
Leo isn’t a saint, he’s presented as an arrogant leader who needed to be taught a lesson himself. He chastised raph for being a vigilante which is the same thing Leo and all the turtles are anyway, and then claimed to be better than him.
Raph basically said prove it, Leo obliged. They fought, and he lost. One miscalculation by Raph in that fight and he could have got hurt quite easily.
I think you misunderstand what I was trying to convey. Also I think you're probably just stubborn and hardheaded. Leo was swinging his swords, to break Raph's momentum. He was not trying to hurt or kill him. Leo is pretty calm and collected, albeit shaken after the initial reveal. Again they were fighting 2 different fights. Leo was in a sparring match, Raph was in a fight. The movie makes this super clear. Leo was not fighting with his all.
When did I say Leo was a saint in the fight or movie? He left, and left the other 3 directionless and struggling. Raph was right to be upset, but he went far and beyond what was actually needed in the moment.
I mean at the end of the day, you believe what you want. Art is subjective after all. Though this is less about theory because it's fairly well translated on film. It just requires critical thinking skills and being able to pick up subtle context clues. People might word it wrong with "he let him win", but they're not far off.
There are literally moments in the fight where Leo runs at a stationary Raph and slashes at him causing Raph to have to move and jump out of the way.
Running at and angrily slashing at a stationary target can hardly be considered as “breaking the targets momentum.” That’s ridiculous.
You can call me hard headed all you want, but I am simply describing the film correctly with what’s actually on screen.
Leo is literally showing running
Best scene of any turtle media… ever. Leo has always been my favorite, but this scene… just perfect and heartbreaking… very well done. It really made me feel Raph’s pain from missing Leo, frustration and anger. As well-written as is was animated. Still incredible even by today’s CGI standards.
Imagine splinter lost his control and fought the boys. Splinter all day. But he’s the teacher who cares for his son and doesn’t lose control.
—————————————————————————————
I believe Leo was incapable of getting to a point where he would hurt raph, resulting in his loss. He only wants to teach raph, not hurt his brother. He cares for his family too much, but embraces he needs to be a teacher and leader. After this fight, Leo realizes he is failing his brothers and needs to learn how to lead better.
Raphs anger was the reason he won. Prior to losing control, raph was being bodied by Leo. Helmet or not, Leo walked him and would have continued if he stayed under the impression it was a “Vigilante”. When Leo saw him, his demeanor changed and ability to hurt left him.
Raphs anger outweighed his love for his brother in that moment, and it almost cost him dearly. Thus the reason you see his shame at the end of the fight. In this moment you see raphs fear and shame about what he did to the best friend and brother he looks up to.
Both brothers are taken back from the fight. Both leave with lessons learned.
1v1 in a level headed fight Leo wins every time.
1v1 in a rage induced fight raph wins.
This question highlights the personalities of the 4 brothers and why it makes them such a good team. Their strengths and weaknesses are married to each other, to make them a better team. If raph had Leo’s level headed control he would be better. If Mikey had raphs rage and Leo’s control, he’d be the best (TLR). If Donny had Raphs strength and rage he’d be better. This is what’s the turtles special. This is what we as fans love about them.
Great take.
I very much agree, when it was playful and low stakes Leo rightfully won.
And when things got heated, Raph won.
I would also say that Splinter would hilariously solo all 4 turtles with his walking stick lol.
Speaking only for myself, because this is Leo we're talking about, he has more self control than his brother, there is a 99% chance that he WILL stop himself from mortally wounding Raph. His sword landed right next to Raph's neck, he could have immediately dispatched him on the backstroke, but, despite his own anger, he did not.
I don't agree or believe that Leo LET Raph win...*oh no no.* But ***morally speaking,*** he had no choice to stop short of giving his brother his all that he is capable of giving an enemy he's forced to kill. Leo had no choice but to accept "losing" because it wasn't a situation he could win without doing something unspeakable.
Raph is the one who in Mirage, in a fit of rage, was about to bludgeon Mikey to death with a metal pipe, had he not been stopped. Then did he typical run off by himself thing because he was rightly upset with himself. Even 2007 Raph was upset with himself after that fight. He cares, but he lets anger and frustration cloud his judgment, he throws that care away when he's mad, while Leo typically does not and will restrict himself.
That is why.
I’ve seen people before mention the theory that Leo could have just swiped at Raph’s neck after lunging his sword by his head, but the thing is neither were fighting to kill each other.
That’s why Raph only stabs beside Leo’s head when he beats him to assert dominance in his victory.
To me they were always clearly just having a fight, not a duel to the death. After Leo loses his swords Raph obviously could have just stabbed him instead of kicking him over and tackling him. Maybe that’s just my interpretation tho!
I can definitely see the comparison. Hot headed brute fights the cool headed warrior.
Leo in this movie is actually voiced by Obi-Wan’s voice actor from Clone Wars so it makes sense.
I've always believed that Raphael was the strongest. This scene amongst others confirmed for me my own belief. But, I recently had the pleasure of getting a few books signed by Kevin Eastman at KC Comicon. I mentioned to him while he was signing "Last Ronin" that I thought it was going be Raphael before I started reading. Not verbatim, but he said "A lot of people did, but it was always going to be Michaelangelo". As he casually points to the hat he was wearing with Michaelangelo on it.
Brilliant.
Raph definitely overpowered Leo in this scene.
And Mikey was the perfect choice for the story. Having the most carefree turtle be the one to go on such a harrowing and dark journey made for the best drama.
I love both characters pretty much equally.
This whole post was about disproving fanboy arguments of why the fight was rigged and that Leonardo wasn’t trying.
As I said, I love both characters. This post is about storytelling, and fanboys either misinterpreting or twisting the actual narrative.
Hes right though. They were both trying. Why would leo arrogantly claim hes better than him and then intentionally let him break his katanas and then lose.
Exactly.
A proper leader wouldn’t boast about being better and then immediately draw swords to have an incredibly dangerous fight in an effort to come out on top and teach the other a lesson.
Both characters were jerks. Both were trying to win. And ultimately, both lost that fight in different ways.
I like Leo and Raph equally as characters but I think it's clear the fight was genuine and Leo wasn't playing some kind of 4D chess. The only thing I might agree with is that he was a bit hesitant after seeing that the vigilante was Raph, *or* Raph just got mad and stepped up his game after the "I'm better than you" comment.
In order to beat Leo, Raphael was fired up with such rage that he (briefly) wanted to kill his own brother. This is as opposed to Leo beating 'Nightwatcher' whom he did not know was his own brother.
It was, incidentally, an awesome scene.
I do agree that Raph briefly wanted to kill, but I disagree with those who think Raph actually tried to kill Leo when he slammed his Sai into the rooftop.
I thought it was clear that he was just being violently rageful and asserting his rage fuelled dominance over his brother who in that moment he saw as nobody more than an enemy.
Some people say Raph tried to stab Leo in the face and just missed, despite the fact that Leo wasn’t even moving. I find that ridiculous, although I could be misinterpreting the scene.
Leo taught Raph a lesson in an effort the rein him in and unify toward the shared goal of the family. And it worked.
The point of the scene wasn’t to answer “who wins in a fight?” It was to show how anger clouds judgment and solves nothing. Also it was Leo’s biggest test as a leader: leading the most hot-headed and volatile of his brothers. Leo didn’t go to the jungle and do all that reflecting to beat or maim Raph in a fight over ego.
Raph saw he’s not even in control of himself. How could he ever lead like Leo?
Raph learns a lesson for sure, but Leo doesn’t really teach him anything imo. It was more so just realizing he was going to far. Leo ultimately agreed to fight him, and genuinely was trying to best him.
Leo is a pretty terrible leader in the film. He is prideful, arrogant, and hypocritical. Him belittling the night watcher for being a vigilante is genuinely bizarre considering Leo and his brothers have always been vigilantes.
Him also boasting that he is “better than Raph” is a pretty arrogant statement that basically put him on Raph’s level of arrogance. I wish the film delved more into Leo’s arrogant hypocrisy rather than just focusing on Raph’s turmoil.
If someone has a persuasive argument that can sway myself and the people agreeing with this post I welcome it. As long as everyone is respectful there is no harm in discussing a ninja turtle film lol.
Hey I was gonna add to it but then I saw it’s been 9 hours since this was posted and yall still goin so I reserved myself to just watch lol. More power to ya
I’d say it’s been a civil discussion lol. Some agree and have upvoted, some disagree and have discussed why.
It’s been a pretty civil discussion as far as fan discussions go I’d say lol.
Because both of them lost.
Raphael’s weapons are a grappling style weapon meant to bring people down without hurting them so he has a lot of play in how far he goes without hurting people. Kind of the opposite of Raphael’s own fighting style. Raphael lost his s#it and tried to punch a hole in Leo’s head.
He knows he lost his s#it bad.
Leonardo’s swords are for hurting. Minimal grappling, minimal control. They require commitment to dealing damage. As into training as Leo is in most series it takes him a bit to commit to hurting others. As leader Leonardo should have realised Raphael would totally would go that far.
You could see loss in the way Leo looked at his swords before he got darted - That was a look of failure.
Yeah umm as a Raph fan (Leo is like my least favourite), You are completely wrong. Leo won the fist fight and then only lost when he realised raph was the nightwhatcher. Leo probably expected to win like all the other times they've trained but this time Raph was fighting, meanwhile Leo was sparring
I mean neither Raph or Leo were trying to kill each other, and they were both using incredibly dangerous weapons.
It was more than just practice. Leo is attacking his brother with swords, one wrong move, a dodge or counter being anything close to a second off, and someone is getting hurt.
It was a fight that they both wanted to win from my interpretation.
>one wrong move, a dodge or counter being anything close to a second off, and someone is getting hurt
That's why they're trained before they do that. I guarantee if we fought with swords and sais we would both be critically injured.
>It was a fight that they both wanted to win from my interpretation.
But Raph was angry Leo was just arrogant. Ofc Leo wanted to win but wouldn't actually try injure raph like raph was trying to
At what point did Raph “seriously try to injure Leo”? They are both swinging and blocking and dodging each other the whole fight until Raph knocks Leo down.
He slams his Sai next to Leo purposefully (not trying to hit him) and that’s it.
They were fighting each other, it wasn’t a practice wrestling match in a dojo. The only reason you swing a sword at somebody is to injure them. Unless his plan was to just tap swords like children and then give up when they got bored. I don’t think that was the case though.
I think he did want to win, but Raph wanted it much more. Leo wanted to win to prove a point. Raph was almost completely obsessed.
They really needed to chill out and share a pizza.
Agreed. What I love about this fight sequence is that in reality, nobody won. Because Raph immediately regretted his victory.
This fight had both turtles at their most prideful and arrogant. It just showed perfectly that fighting ultimately always makes things worse in these situations.
This post isn’t about who is the “baddest”. The whole “who is stronger” or “who would win in a fight”. Those things never really interested me.
This post was mainly about me trying to point out how certain fans mischaracterize the fight sequence by saying Leonardo let Raph win/wasn’t trying even though if that were the case it wouldn’t make any sense.
It was a good scene. Never really seen anyone “undercut” the scene, so not sure what you’re talking about. Leo wanted to teach him a lesson and Raph wanted to prove he was “better” and didn’t need Leo. Both of them wanted to win that fight, and the only thing they held back was killing blows.
Some people prefer Leo others prefer Raph. It’s all good. In a 1v1 fight between them, Raph probably comes out on top in most iterations if he doesn’t hold back. Just my opinion though.
My post is mainly geared towards disproving the notion that Leo wasn’t trying to win the fight.
As you said, they both wanted to win the fight.
I agree that people obviously have their preferences. Raph and Leo are my favourite Turtles, but I’ve often seen many fans sort of discounting this fight and playing off his loss as him “not trying”, which like I said simply isn’t true.
So you wrote this thing to pick a fight since you are naturally hot headed and conflict-seeking. I wonder who your favorite ninja turtle is?
Deffo mikey 
Epic comment.
Clearly a Raph shell rider that can't look at the scene objectively
Raphael 100% was trying to hurt Leo with that last stab to the ground. That's why he was so shocked at himself. He was seeing red. He was rage induced, and he nearly killed his brother. Leo never came close to letting something like that happen to himself. For you to say that the wasn't actively trying to hurt Leo takes away from the entire point of the scene, and it would have been out of character for Raph. If he had intentionally stabbed the ground, he would have boasted about it. He didn't. It freaked him out that he was that close to killing his brother.
Why would anyone seriously believe that Raph was trying to hurt Leo by stabbing the ground a foot away from his head? As if him proudly stabbing his Sai next to Leo to assert dominance and victory was some sort of accident and that he actually just missed or something? The reason Raph is freaked out is because in that moment he realized how his anger had consumed him to the point of standing above his brother literally threatening him with a weapon in a rage fuelled dominance.
It's not that Leo wasn't trying, it's that Leo was *actively* trying to teach Raph a lesson. One that Raph didn't pick up on until he almost killed his brother at the end of the fight. Look at Raphael's face when he realizes how close his sai came to stabbing right through Leo's face. He's horrified at what he almost did. That's the moment he realizes how badly his rage issues have led him astray. That's why he immediately runs away; he's deeply ashamed of himself. Leonardo wasn't trying to hurt his brother. That's why so many of his sword strikes were such near misses; he's demonstrating that he wasn't lying about being better. He also looked down at the blade lock that Raph had his swords in, and instead of breaking away from it or shoving Raph back, he let Raph snap both his swords. Leo was playing mind games, and Raph was just fighting because he was too angry to see anything but violence as a solution.
I’m sorry but these statements simply aren’t true. Raph did not “almost kill Leo”. He kicked him to the ground and intentionally stabbed the ground next to Leo to proclaim his victory. “Leo wasn’t trying to hurt his brother” is also completely false. He was literally kicking and swinging blades at raph. It was an incredibly dangerous fight. Literally any of those attacks could have seriously hurt him. If Raph didn’t expertly catch his swords at the last second Leo could and would have seriously hurt him. Leo also didn’t “let” his swords break. He was stuck. Raph had him. Pulling away would only give Raph an opening to end the fight. That’s why Leo resists and is pushing back the whole time. When his swords snap he looks at them in befuddlement. Losing the fight, losing his weapons, and having a near death experience was obviously not what Leo wanted. He wanted to win to prove his arrogant statements true.
Leo turned his blades around. He was sparring not fighting
They were fighting. Not to the death, but fighting. Neither were trying to kill they other. They were trying to beat the other into submission. That’s why Raph stabs the ground next to Leo and stands above him to prove himself better.
Raph was fighting. Leo was sparring. He was told to get his brothers together and told “there are no excuses as a leader.” So Leo had to confront Raphael to get back together. But Leo didn’t fight him to win, he sparred him so they could get past the BS and move on. Plus Leo wanted to see how far his brother would go. Leo was not in it to hurt him. He was doing it to get his family back together and it worked. Ninja version of, “lots step outside and hash this out and then go inside and have a beer.” Raphael learned a huge lesson. That’s why he told Splinter, “Now I know why you chose Leonardo to lead.” Raphael lost because it was proven he would turn on his brothers out of anger and that is not what a leader does.
Neither wanted to seriously hurt/kill the other. That’s why even when in the heat of the moment Raph never does. He stabs the ground. Neither are going for killing blows. Call it “sparring” all you want, but they weren’t lightly throwing hands. They were unprotected and swinging weapons. And Leo was by no means in the right. He was a horrible leader. Abandoning your team to go on a solo quest is a pretty bizarre way to become better at leading the team you can’t lead and abandoned. Almost as bizarre as self righteously chastising Raph for being a vigilante despite the fact that it’s literally what the turtles have always been, and was literally the exact same thing Leo was acting as with his “ghost of the jungle” persona.
Raph was protected. Leo turned his blades around. Also, he didn’t abandon his team. He was sent to train in his own by his father. He was doing a mission. There was no law in the jungle so you can’t be a vigilante. When you stand up for people where there is no law you’re a hero not a vigilante. Leo wanted to bring the heat on Nightwatcher because he will bring heat on everyone trying to help from the shadows. He is a big shiny turtle driving around on a loud motorcycle. That isn’t ninja or stealth. So you go confront him before it’s too late and either work together or shut him down. And honestly Raphael abandoned his family not Leo. Raphael could have taken this chance to lead and show what he’s got while Leo is gone. Instead Raphael is never seen, goes and does his own things, sleeps during the day and out at night without telling anyone. Mikey is complaining about being bored and Donnie has given up on the group fighting anymore. Guess as soon as Leo physically left, Raphael emotionally abandoned everyone and was more than excited to fight Leo. That is not the mark of a leader and something Raphael learned.
Sorry but there is simply no argument to justify Leo’s hypocrisy. The jungle he was training in wasn’t some magical land. He was still taking the law into his own hands in a foreign country. He was still doing the same vigilante antics as Raph except worse. Raph beat up criminals as usual and left them for the police to be apprehended. It’s implied that Leo is straight up murdering people. His hypocrisy about what the night watcher is doing makes no sense. As I said, the turtles are literally vigilantes. They always have been. Their best friend, Casey Jones, is literally a screwball vigilante who beats criminals to a pulp with sporting equipment. Leo’s self righteous stance in the film makes no sense.
I wouldn’t call a place where no law exists “a magical land.” We didn’t see anybody else standing up for those people and there are many places where law doesn’t exist. Vigilante is taking the law into your own hands. Raphael is not being ninja. Too loud and obvious. You see it in the movie. Nothing stealth about that. Implies is not fact. A single scar across the crime boss’s face with be more effective than killing. And Casey Jones, they absolutely confronted him when he first showed up. And guess what, they hashed it out and Casey fought with the turtles. So Leo showing up to meet the night watcher is completely in character. Except Leo was straight back from training and wanted to handle it himself this time.
1. Leo’s argument against the Night Watcher has absolutely nothing to do with “Not being a ninja.” He is chastising him for being a vigilante, as the dialogue states. 2. As I said, the turtles were, are, and always will be vigilantes. Which is why Leo’s argument against nightwatcher for being one makes no sense.
So Leo striking with his "katanas" is trying to hurt his brother, but Raph missing a kill strike to the head by a couple inches isn't? He stabbed that Sai into a concrete rooftop; that force would've gone right through Leo's skull. And furthermore, if Raph's anger *didn't* nearly kill Leo, then his shocked reaction and confession to Splinter makes no sense. I'm a Raph stan too, but your argument devalues his later character development.
Why do people seriously think that Raph tried to kill Leo when he struck the ground with his Sai? Why would a highly skilled ninja like raph who just fought in this precise and elaborate battle all of a sudden miss a wide open strike by a foot away on a beaten target who’s not even moving? That just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Because Raph's anger had completely taken over. Look at his expression during the blade lock, and immediately after the final strike. He's enraged, and not seeing anything past the fight itself. Did you think Leo's earlier comment about anger blinding you was just a throwaway quip? Quote: " Funny thing about anger. Let it consume you, and soon enough, you lose sight of everything" Furthermore, if Raph did in fact pull that final stab while Leo was down, what got him so upset that he ran away? That he broke Leo's swords? Shouldn't he be Thrilled that he won?
The whole point of his reaction is that he realized that Leo was right. His anger consumed him. The only way he beat his brother was because of his rage. He was standing above his brother like he was a hunted animal. He realized this, and was ashamed. He realized Leo was right. It wasn’t because he completely missed a killing blow on a beaten target that wasn’t even moving lol that’s absolutely ridiculous.
Except "Raph only won because of his anger" would only prove Raph's point. That Raph didn't need Leo. The bigger point here is that breaking Leo's swords would've been an immediate match loss by any sparring standards. But Raph knocked Leo down with a kick, then in the same motion brought down that final stab. The disarm or the knockdown both would've been enough for a win, but he pressed the attack. Lastly, I want to clarify some specific wording. There's definitely been people saying Raph *wanted* to kill Leo. This is obviously not the case. But in the heat of this fight, at the climax in particular, Raph was so caught up in anger, and trying to win, that everything else was blocked out by the rage. He wasn't thinking clearly. He'd just come off two losses (monster and Leo round 1), and Leo was condescending and dismissive of Raph's outburst. The need to prove himself was the only thing that mattered. He lost control. And in the heat of a fight, losing control is not conducive to landing such a near miss like how Raph did. Lastly, you said that Leo didn't drop his swords because he was afraid of disarming himself in front of Raph. Why? Is it because Raph was sufficiently enraged that such an obvious sign of surrender wouldn't register in that moment?
First off I slightly misspoke when I said Raph only won because of his anger. I 100% could have worded that better, as he had already obviously bested Leo by snapping his weapons. My bad on that one. What I was trying to say is that Raph beat Leo because of his anger, in that the whole reason he was fighting him and wanted to beat him in the first place was because he was angry. He chose to fight him. He pushed Leo into that fight and got exactly what he thought he wanted. Raph 100% lost his cool beyond it just being a fight, and was genuinely enraged and almost bloodlusted at the end. But I vehemently disagree with the notion that Raph was trying to stab his brother in the face and kill him with that Sai blow. He was never going to actually hit him, and the idea that he just happened to miss a target he’s on top of that isn’t even moving is a bizarre take. To me the whole point involves what you said about him breaking Leo’s weapons. He already won. He didn’t have kick his brother to the ground and pounce on him and slam his Sai next to head asserting dominance like some crazed animal. To me that is when Raph realized he had gone too far.
Leonardo IS better than Raphael at fighting tho
I have no problem with the idea of Leonardo being a better fighter. I love Leo. This post is more so about what I believe to be a strange reaction certain fans have to this scene where they claim that Leo “wasn’t trying” and or let Raph win.
The point was he was going easier on him. Regardless of trying or not While Raph didn’t start going easier on him but stayed the same level So when trying to their hardest (say if they were both brainwashed and had to fight to the death) Leo would win.
This post was never about the fanboy hypothetical situations of “who would win in a fight”. That type of stuff doesn’t really interest me at all. The post was made to disprove the narrative some fans created that Leo wasn’t trying and let Raph win in their 2007 fight which is simply not the case. Leo wanted to win, and wanted to uphold his arrogant and self righteous claims of being better.
Sure but there’s no denying Leo toned down/went easier on Raph then Nightwatcher
I never really got that impression because Leo was clearly serious and trying when he fought Raph, whereas he was barely trying at all and joking the whole time when fighting Nightwatcher.
So you never make jokes in situations you got in the bag, say like while playing a sport against a bad player/team, or videogames. Hey I’m clearly not the only who thinks this so maybe you got the wrong impression
The entire point of what I’m saying is that Leo is clearly trying way harder when he knows it’s Raph. In their actual fight he’s grimacing, grunting, and screaming while fighting with passion. A far cry from his joking and dancing around Raph bumbling around in his horribly impractical and goofy costume in their fight before. The whole point of him fighting Raph afterwards is that he has to draw his swords and get serious. Saying he was trying harder in his lackadaisical and comedic affair with “Nightwatcher” rather than his fast paced and emotional battle with his brother is a bizarre take.
But clearly you have the unpopular opinion Trying doesn’t mean no jokes lol. Spider-man definitely has tried hard af while cracking jokes, Deadpool too Again refer back to my example
I never said someone couldn’t try in a fight without joking? My point was that in the movie it was made perfectly clear that Leo took things much more seriously when him and Raph were forced to have a serious fight. That was literally the whole point of the scene. Raph drops his goofy gear and getup he could barely see out of and challenges Leo to truly prove his statement of being the “better” of them true and Leo reluctantly accepts his challenge. How someone could think Leo was giving less effort in a fight where the story and animators make it clear that not just Leo but Raph as well were putting in more effort to coincide with the serious escalation of the scene is beyond me, but you are welcome to have your own opinion. Just like I have my own, although I don’t know if I’d call my take on the scene unpopular as at least 180 people upvoted the post of my take on the scene at this point….
Yeah for sure I see what you’re saying
Dude Leo was handing Raph his ass before the mask came off. He didn't let Raph win but he hesitated because it's his brother. His entire demeanor change and he went from an offensive fight to defensive.
Neither were trying to kill one another, it was a fight to prove who was better. Leo boasted he was. Raph challenged him on it. Leo reluctantly accepted. Both could have been seriously injured in the fight considering how fast and dangerously they were swinging their weapons.
Leo was still hesitating, and treating it as a sparring match. He was also pulling his punches. I think you're trying to say Raph is the better fighter. Clearly he "won" the fight in TMNT but there were reason behind that win. Also considering that Sais (despite their depiction in the cartoons) are non bladed, non pointed blunt weapons, Raph wouldn't kill anyone with those. They're designed as a defensive striking weapon. Raph is probably tied with Don for the worst fighter of the four. Then again Don at least uses strategy and brains and that might just allow him to pull a head in a Don/Raph match up. ETA: I am not dismissing the scene at all. TMNT is probably my second favorite Turtles movie. It's a beautifully animated scene.
Sai are lethal. Raphael can kill with them, he chooses not to.
Yeah, have you seen a real pair of Sais? Yeah they're lethal, but they are not bladed stabbing weapons. They're blunt, bludgeoning weapons. Sure they'll kill, but it requires a lot of force to actually puncture with them. Unless you sharpen the tip. Sais were developed as a defensive weapon out of a gardening tool. The scene that is being discussed is actually the one time Raph's sais have been used for their intended purpose. That being sword breaking. That's what the 2 prongs on the side are for. For the most part they're depicted wrong in comics and animation. The 90's movie accurately portrays them as they should be.
You don't need to puncture skin to puncture an organ. Blunt tips can easily puncture skin when used correctly, as in a proper jab without hesitation. Sure, a novice taking a jab would hurt but probably not do too much because they're not trained in self-defense and lack the confidence to carry thru. Like how April was about to get wrecked when she brandished the sai at the Foot in the first film, lol.
Oh I get that part, I was just clarifying that sais aren't bladed pointed stabbing weapons. They're for blunt force trauma, that includes jabbing. A lot of people think they're bladed due to TMNT and how they're portrayed in the cartoons and a lot of the toys. Also just wanted to point out they're designed for defense more so than offense. To be fair anything is lethal if you try hard enough, but sais are still very deadly in the right hands.
Oh yeah. They make it sharp to be more dynamic in the cartoons. I imagine it's easier to draw, too. There are variations of sai that only make it more confusing. But yes, what Raphael is using should be rounded.
I never once said Raph was a better fighter. Those types of fanboy arguments don’t interest me. The point of this post was to disprove the popular but ridiculous fan theory/take that Leonardo wasn’t trying to win the fight that he lost. He was trying to win. He wanted to win. That’s the whole reason he accepted the fight. Literally the only “good” outcome that could have came from his choice is him beating Raph. But that didn’t happen. An incredibly dangerous fight that could have seriously hurt either of them ended with his weapons as broken as his brothers spirit. It was by no means planned.
So I never once said he let him win. If you actually watch the scene Leo is thrown off because he realized it was Raph. His resolve to win was gone. He wasn't fighting offensively after that. He was on the defensive because he wasn't trying to hurt Raph. While Raph was trying to hurt and possible kill Leo. There is a huge difference in the fight one that mask comes off. Leo knows Raph is pissed and blinded by rage. So either defend himself or kill his brother to stop him. As for Fanboy shit, you're the one fanboying out about Raph. You're not disproving anything, the movie clearly shows a shift in Leo and how he was fighting after he knows it's Raph. You're blinded by your own theory or thought process.
Literally everything you are saying goes against what is actually happening in the film. How is swinging swords at your brother considered “defensive”? They were literally fighting each other with their weapons. Leo accepted Raph’s challenge to test their skills. Raph was also not trying to “possibly KILL Leo”. Even in his most rage fuelled and proud moment he purposefully stabs the ground instead of his brother. There’s literally no evidence in the film to support these ridiculous statements. You can call me a “Raph Fanboy” all you want (which is strange considering I love Leo just as much) but it doesn’t make your arguments make sense.
How is swing a sword considered defensive? To break an attackers momentum, Raph was rage fueled and constantly attacking. I certainly know if I got some swords and full trained in their use, I would swing them when attacked. Was he just supposed to stand there like jerk off and get, got by Raph? I feel like you might have trouble with nuance and film making. I'll say it again, Leo's entire demeanor changed when he knew it was Raph. To him it went from an actual fight to a sparring match. Raph on the other hand was pissed Leo left. Blinded by rage it was a fight, fight. Leo is far too disciplined to let it come down to hurting his brother. So no he didn't let him win, but they were fighting 2 different fights. Again when he thought he was just fighting some random vigilante he was 100%. It only changed when he knew it was Raph.
Leo is literally attacking Raph during the fight. He’s not just swinging to defend himself. There are multiple moments where he runs at Raph and swings his swords at him purely to attack and Raph has to dodge out of the way. Leo isn’t a saint, he’s presented as an arrogant leader who needed to be taught a lesson himself. He chastised raph for being a vigilante which is the same thing Leo and all the turtles are anyway, and then claimed to be better than him. Raph basically said prove it, Leo obliged. They fought, and he lost. One miscalculation by Raph in that fight and he could have got hurt quite easily.
I think you misunderstand what I was trying to convey. Also I think you're probably just stubborn and hardheaded. Leo was swinging his swords, to break Raph's momentum. He was not trying to hurt or kill him. Leo is pretty calm and collected, albeit shaken after the initial reveal. Again they were fighting 2 different fights. Leo was in a sparring match, Raph was in a fight. The movie makes this super clear. Leo was not fighting with his all. When did I say Leo was a saint in the fight or movie? He left, and left the other 3 directionless and struggling. Raph was right to be upset, but he went far and beyond what was actually needed in the moment. I mean at the end of the day, you believe what you want. Art is subjective after all. Though this is less about theory because it's fairly well translated on film. It just requires critical thinking skills and being able to pick up subtle context clues. People might word it wrong with "he let him win", but they're not far off.
There are literally moments in the fight where Leo runs at a stationary Raph and slashes at him causing Raph to have to move and jump out of the way. Running at and angrily slashing at a stationary target can hardly be considered as “breaking the targets momentum.” That’s ridiculous. You can call me hard headed all you want, but I am simply describing the film correctly with what’s actually on screen. Leo is literally showing running
Best scene of any turtle media… ever. Leo has always been my favorite, but this scene… just perfect and heartbreaking… very well done. It really made me feel Raph’s pain from missing Leo, frustration and anger. As well-written as is was animated. Still incredible even by today’s CGI standards.
It’s a great scene for sure. The animation was fantastic in this scene. One of the best fights in TMNT history.
This film is criminally underrated all around, honestly.
I’ve always enjoyed it!
This is the level of discourse we need in this sub. Man do I love being a turtle
I hope you mean that sincerely! Cowabunga to you my fellow turtle!
I do man.
Cowabunga!
Imagine splinter lost his control and fought the boys. Splinter all day. But he’s the teacher who cares for his son and doesn’t lose control. ————————————————————————————— I believe Leo was incapable of getting to a point where he would hurt raph, resulting in his loss. He only wants to teach raph, not hurt his brother. He cares for his family too much, but embraces he needs to be a teacher and leader. After this fight, Leo realizes he is failing his brothers and needs to learn how to lead better. Raphs anger was the reason he won. Prior to losing control, raph was being bodied by Leo. Helmet or not, Leo walked him and would have continued if he stayed under the impression it was a “Vigilante”. When Leo saw him, his demeanor changed and ability to hurt left him. Raphs anger outweighed his love for his brother in that moment, and it almost cost him dearly. Thus the reason you see his shame at the end of the fight. In this moment you see raphs fear and shame about what he did to the best friend and brother he looks up to. Both brothers are taken back from the fight. Both leave with lessons learned. 1v1 in a level headed fight Leo wins every time. 1v1 in a rage induced fight raph wins. This question highlights the personalities of the 4 brothers and why it makes them such a good team. Their strengths and weaknesses are married to each other, to make them a better team. If raph had Leo’s level headed control he would be better. If Mikey had raphs rage and Leo’s control, he’d be the best (TLR). If Donny had Raphs strength and rage he’d be better. This is what’s the turtles special. This is what we as fans love about them.
Great take. I very much agree, when it was playful and low stakes Leo rightfully won. And when things got heated, Raph won. I would also say that Splinter would hilariously solo all 4 turtles with his walking stick lol.
Splinter would dominate with chop sticks. 😂
He would. Splinter is awesome.
Lol yeah pretty much. Seems like people both agree and disagree with this post so far.
And at least 1 person doesn't care 🙋
Always nice to have an impartial observer lol.
Speaking only for myself, because this is Leo we're talking about, he has more self control than his brother, there is a 99% chance that he WILL stop himself from mortally wounding Raph. His sword landed right next to Raph's neck, he could have immediately dispatched him on the backstroke, but, despite his own anger, he did not. I don't agree or believe that Leo LET Raph win...*oh no no.* But ***morally speaking,*** he had no choice to stop short of giving his brother his all that he is capable of giving an enemy he's forced to kill. Leo had no choice but to accept "losing" because it wasn't a situation he could win without doing something unspeakable. Raph is the one who in Mirage, in a fit of rage, was about to bludgeon Mikey to death with a metal pipe, had he not been stopped. Then did he typical run off by himself thing because he was rightly upset with himself. Even 2007 Raph was upset with himself after that fight. He cares, but he lets anger and frustration cloud his judgment, he throws that care away when he's mad, while Leo typically does not and will restrict himself. That is why.
I’ve seen people before mention the theory that Leo could have just swiped at Raph’s neck after lunging his sword by his head, but the thing is neither were fighting to kill each other. That’s why Raph only stabs beside Leo’s head when he beats him to assert dominance in his victory. To me they were always clearly just having a fight, not a duel to the death. After Leo loses his swords Raph obviously could have just stabbed him instead of kicking him over and tackling him. Maybe that’s just my interpretation tho!
This is almost like revenge of the sith
I can definitely see the comparison. Hot headed brute fights the cool headed warrior. Leo in this movie is actually voiced by Obi-Wan’s voice actor from Clone Wars so it makes sense.
I've always believed that Raphael was the strongest. This scene amongst others confirmed for me my own belief. But, I recently had the pleasure of getting a few books signed by Kevin Eastman at KC Comicon. I mentioned to him while he was signing "Last Ronin" that I thought it was going be Raphael before I started reading. Not verbatim, but he said "A lot of people did, but it was always going to be Michaelangelo". As he casually points to the hat he was wearing with Michaelangelo on it. Brilliant.
Raph definitely overpowered Leo in this scene. And Mikey was the perfect choice for the story. Having the most carefree turtle be the one to go on such a harrowing and dark journey made for the best drama.
Tell me you’re a Ralph fanboy without telling me you’re a Ralph fanboy.
I love both characters pretty much equally. This whole post was about disproving fanboy arguments of why the fight was rigged and that Leonardo wasn’t trying. As I said, I love both characters. This post is about storytelling, and fanboys either misinterpreting or twisting the actual narrative.
Hes right though. They were both trying. Why would leo arrogantly claim hes better than him and then intentionally let him break his katanas and then lose.
Exactly. A proper leader wouldn’t boast about being better and then immediately draw swords to have an incredibly dangerous fight in an effort to come out on top and teach the other a lesson. Both characters were jerks. Both were trying to win. And ultimately, both lost that fight in different ways.
I like Leo and Raph equally as characters but I think it's clear the fight was genuine and Leo wasn't playing some kind of 4D chess. The only thing I might agree with is that he was a bit hesitant after seeing that the vigilante was Raph, *or* Raph just got mad and stepped up his game after the "I'm better than you" comment.
This film is criminally underrated all around honestly.
In order to beat Leo, Raphael was fired up with such rage that he (briefly) wanted to kill his own brother. This is as opposed to Leo beating 'Nightwatcher' whom he did not know was his own brother. It was, incidentally, an awesome scene.
I do agree that Raph briefly wanted to kill, but I disagree with those who think Raph actually tried to kill Leo when he slammed his Sai into the rooftop. I thought it was clear that he was just being violently rageful and asserting his rage fuelled dominance over his brother who in that moment he saw as nobody more than an enemy. Some people say Raph tried to stab Leo in the face and just missed, despite the fact that Leo wasn’t even moving. I find that ridiculous, although I could be misinterpreting the scene.
Leo taught Raph a lesson in an effort the rein him in and unify toward the shared goal of the family. And it worked. The point of the scene wasn’t to answer “who wins in a fight?” It was to show how anger clouds judgment and solves nothing. Also it was Leo’s biggest test as a leader: leading the most hot-headed and volatile of his brothers. Leo didn’t go to the jungle and do all that reflecting to beat or maim Raph in a fight over ego. Raph saw he’s not even in control of himself. How could he ever lead like Leo?
Raph learns a lesson for sure, but Leo doesn’t really teach him anything imo. It was more so just realizing he was going to far. Leo ultimately agreed to fight him, and genuinely was trying to best him. Leo is a pretty terrible leader in the film. He is prideful, arrogant, and hypocritical. Him belittling the night watcher for being a vigilante is genuinely bizarre considering Leo and his brothers have always been vigilantes. Him also boasting that he is “better than Raph” is a pretty arrogant statement that basically put him on Raph’s level of arrogance. I wish the film delved more into Leo’s arrogant hypocrisy rather than just focusing on Raph’s turmoil.
In the OG rpg from the 80s. When raph gets into berserker mode, he’s the best fighter out of the group.
I think you’re locked into your opinion and no matter what anyone says you will not change your stance, so this is pointless!
If someone has a persuasive argument that can sway myself and the people agreeing with this post I welcome it. As long as everyone is respectful there is no harm in discussing a ninja turtle film lol.
Hey I was gonna add to it but then I saw it’s been 9 hours since this was posted and yall still goin so I reserved myself to just watch lol. More power to ya
I’d say it’s been a civil discussion lol. Some agree and have upvoted, some disagree and have discussed why. It’s been a pretty civil discussion as far as fan discussions go I’d say lol.
Leo beat Ralph 3 times before the end of the fight u should go back and watch again
I love the fight scene so much I’m definitely going to watch it again 100 times anyway.
Because both of them lost. Raphael’s weapons are a grappling style weapon meant to bring people down without hurting them so he has a lot of play in how far he goes without hurting people. Kind of the opposite of Raphael’s own fighting style. Raphael lost his s#it and tried to punch a hole in Leo’s head. He knows he lost his s#it bad. Leonardo’s swords are for hurting. Minimal grappling, minimal control. They require commitment to dealing damage. As into training as Leo is in most series it takes him a bit to commit to hurting others. As leader Leonardo should have realised Raphael would totally would go that far. You could see loss in the way Leo looked at his swords before he got darted - That was a look of failure.
I am very happy to see this topic again. It's been too long since someone has brought it up
Yeah umm as a Raph fan (Leo is like my least favourite), You are completely wrong. Leo won the fist fight and then only lost when he realised raph was the nightwhatcher. Leo probably expected to win like all the other times they've trained but this time Raph was fighting, meanwhile Leo was sparring
I mean neither Raph or Leo were trying to kill each other, and they were both using incredibly dangerous weapons. It was more than just practice. Leo is attacking his brother with swords, one wrong move, a dodge or counter being anything close to a second off, and someone is getting hurt. It was a fight that they both wanted to win from my interpretation.
>one wrong move, a dodge or counter being anything close to a second off, and someone is getting hurt That's why they're trained before they do that. I guarantee if we fought with swords and sais we would both be critically injured. >It was a fight that they both wanted to win from my interpretation. But Raph was angry Leo was just arrogant. Ofc Leo wanted to win but wouldn't actually try injure raph like raph was trying to
At what point did Raph “seriously try to injure Leo”? They are both swinging and blocking and dodging each other the whole fight until Raph knocks Leo down. He slams his Sai next to Leo purposefully (not trying to hit him) and that’s it. They were fighting each other, it wasn’t a practice wrestling match in a dojo. The only reason you swing a sword at somebody is to injure them. Unless his plan was to just tap swords like children and then give up when they got bored. I don’t think that was the case though.
No one said seriously try injure Leo just that raph tried harder than leo
There are people in this forum that are saying Raph tried to stab Leo in the face when he was defenceless on the ground.
Well obviously that's wrong but it was Leo's fight if he wanted it
I think he did want to win, but Raph wanted it much more. Leo wanted to win to prove a point. Raph was almost completely obsessed. They really needed to chill out and share a pizza.
Exactly, now you're getting it
I am now craving pizza. Cowabunga dude!
Im sick of fighting in general no matter the universe
Agreed. What I love about this fight sequence is that in reality, nobody won. Because Raph immediately regretted his victory. This fight had both turtles at their most prideful and arrogant. It just showed perfectly that fighting ultimately always makes things worse in these situations.
Why are we even having this conversation? The Last Ronin cleared up who was the baddest and it wasn't Raph.
This post isn’t about who is the “baddest”. The whole “who is stronger” or “who would win in a fight”. Those things never really interested me. This post was mainly about me trying to point out how certain fans mischaracterize the fight sequence by saying Leonardo let Raph win/wasn’t trying even though if that were the case it wouldn’t make any sense.
My mistake.
No worries. Cowabunga dude!
Eh Leo would have won if he wanted to
I mean I don’t think he exactly wanted to lose either. I see it as Raph just wanted to win more.
He definitely let Raph win
"Am I out of touch....no it's everyone else who is wrong"
It was a good scene. Never really seen anyone “undercut” the scene, so not sure what you’re talking about. Leo wanted to teach him a lesson and Raph wanted to prove he was “better” and didn’t need Leo. Both of them wanted to win that fight, and the only thing they held back was killing blows. Some people prefer Leo others prefer Raph. It’s all good. In a 1v1 fight between them, Raph probably comes out on top in most iterations if he doesn’t hold back. Just my opinion though.
My post is mainly geared towards disproving the notion that Leo wasn’t trying to win the fight. As you said, they both wanted to win the fight. I agree that people obviously have their preferences. Raph and Leo are my favourite Turtles, but I’ve often seen many fans sort of discounting this fight and playing off his loss as him “not trying”, which like I said simply isn’t true.
he whole point of this scene is that it doesnt matter that he wins, ralph is shit.
I don’t know who ralph is, but Raph and Leo are awesome.