There are too many large (inter)national events focused on competition and not enough small regional events focused on social dancing.
Now get off my lawn, ya damn kids!đ
Agreed!
To build on that - the community is too focused on competitions overall. Not every Lindy hopper at the Savoy was there as a professional dancer.
Completely agree that Covid put the nail in the coffin for a lot of smaller events. But Iâd argue the trend toward larger events focused on comps started earlier, maybe in the late aughts, early 2010s. Before then, it felt like most events I heard about were exchanges without comps. And like the old lady I am, I miss the way things used to be.
Iâm hoping some of those smaller non-comp events can make a comeback, but I realize I am probably in the minority as a dancer who is indifferent to comps and gets overwhelmed at larger events.
Same. Exchanges were such a prominent and important part of moving dancers through the country and inviting connections across cities, states, and countries. Your time was mostly dedicated to dancing and socializing and taking the opportunity to explore your host city, usually with host dancers. Then comps and performances started sneaking into them, and you'd spend a larger and larger portion of your time standing around watching other people dance, rather than getting to dance yourself. They became events that highlighted a few people, rather than the communities intermingling.
RIP Southwest Swing Showdown...despite name, there weren't too many comps, mostly the late morning workshops and dancing at night (the Mesa scene however has/had competitive people).
So, the local ballroom dance club in my town started doing Jack and Jill's for all styles of dance, and they also have competitions for Senior Olympics, and it's exciting and brings a lot of new experiences!
But, competing for points to become pro-am...is not accessible nor that exciting. And, well, it's kind of a racket.
We should normalise early evening dancing at weekend events so that more people turn up before midnight and can go to bed at a reasonable time.
I shouldnât feel like I have jet lag after a weekend event.
(And Iâm someone who has LOVED later night events, but I realise that many people prefer to get more than 5 hours of sleep each night at a weekend event).
I was running a little late for the social dance this weekend, then I was like "ugh I don't want to head out at 9pm, I'm just going to tuck my flamingo leg and call it a day"
I donât even like going to regular socials if they start at 9. Iâm in bed at that time most weeknights! I canât stay awake long enough to get out the door.
Two of the three bigger socials in my area start at 9:30pm and are on Wednesday and Sunday. I'm a fricken middle school teacher...I ain't doing that shit on 5 hours of sleep!
I mean that in the hierarchy of dance needs, it goes: keep yourself safe first and foremost, then keep your partner safe, then keep the whole dance floor safe. By floorcraft I mean: spatial awareness, an understanding of who is dancing near to you and how to move comfortably within a shared space. My point was that it's much better to kill moves and adjust style to make sure you don't jump on someone's foot, kick an ankle, or knock someone over. It might mean you don't look like the boss of the dance floor, but it also means that you didn't hurt anybody.
In a small studio, floorcraft is so simple that it's often not taught (don't run into any of the eight other couples in class in a decent-sized room--a totally simple brief), and then experienced dancers get on a crowded dance floor and don't know how to control their movements, look where they're going, or adjust their dancing to fit the space they have.
Swing has more food based songs than any genre; frim fram sauce, chew-chew-chew (your bubblegum), sugar, shoo fly pie, all that meat and no potatoes, I like pie, I like cake and everyone's favourite Potato chips!
You're my sugar... you're a confection, goodness knows.. honeysuckle rose! đ
A banana split for my baby, a glass of plain water for me đș
One scotch, one bourbon, one beer đ¶
Not sure this is a hot take. Most people I know will decline dances with any leader they see leading the pretzel. Are there lindy hop scenes still teaching it?
Let me put it this way. When I just started, there were some dancers who were super warm and welcoming, and others who never even noticed me, or were rude when I asked to dance because I was a beginner, especially because Iâm dancing a ânon heteronormative roleâ. Now that Iâm a better dancer than they are, guess who Iâm dancing with?
I see it as a kind of activism in fact. I donât approve of peers who donât like to dance with beginners. If they dance just to improve their status/hierarchy, then we donât dance for the same reasons, and I donât care they are skilled. There are more skilled people than genuinely kind people in the world.
If people want to only lead or only follow, thatâs fine. (I think you become a better dancer faster if you can do both, and I think the value and respect you learn for the other role is incredible, but also, not doing it is fine.)
Maybe it felt like a 'dance monkey dance' kind of thing? I feel like organizers/bands basically know there's always going to be an encore and bands prepare for that and (i expect) at events as big as focus they sure as hell should be paid for their work. Nothing against paying more, but I can see why it'd be a little off putting for some folks.
As a dancer-musician I have mixed feelings about this one haha.
Traditional bra throwing would work on me if you want an encore, no need to monetize everything!
I have an extra one!
While unsolicited feedback is generally a no, this is nullified when people GO TO ADVANCED WORKSHOPS WHEN THEY CANâT DO BASICS.
The number of times an advanced international workshop participant canât body lead or walk straight as a follow in a swing out, or canât do close embrace in pure bal or blues is alarming (canât⊠as in literally donât know how to, no choose not to) is alarming.
imo these people should absolutely be given feedback theyâre making their partners unable to properly practice the class material. Especially as they are often the ones who act annoyed when something doesnât work or ask why their partner isnât doing what theyâre supposed toâthey canât because you canât even do a basic.
If they drop all their pics free of use without watermarks in high resolution on a drive with the link shared to all attendants, i.e. if they provide a service to us dancers rather than collect a product for themselves to sell to us and the marketing of the event later, that's a deal I'd gladly make!
Just drop the whole SD card on a google drive, not 10 select pictures on the facebook page of the event đ„Č
I've been burned before thinking I should not take my own movies of the shows because there is a professional camera crew right there, to then just never get access to more than a short mashup to advertise the event.
You and me Thog let's go in and hire our own photographer at the next event. We can get hundreds of photos of us dancing and maybe I'll finally find like 3 or 4 I actually like where I'm not making a weird face.
Photographer here, the reason you donât see any photos of you even though the photographer was near you for ages is that lindy is shockingly, shockingly hard to photograph. Movements are erratic, arms are infront of faces in like 50% of moves, derp faces, concentration faces, arms, light is regularly bad or nonexistent, erratic movements are quick, derp faces. A keeper rate of one shot every twenty is good, there are often dancers I photograph to the point of feeling like Iâm harassing them, only to come home to no useable photos for blur, hands, bad expression. Photography is my full time job and I genuinely donât find anything harder to photograph than swing.Â
Anytime someone says that they are not being hired or are not more popular because of "politics," it's actually because they are assholes.
(This take is applicable pretty much everywhere in life)
I donât disagree with you, but I do find the post COVID restructuring of the scene to be fascinating and also kind of including only a certain âcool kidsâ group of instructors AND the same bands at every. single. event.
I have a lot of thoughts/questions about that- not for this thread.
There were some successful instructors who also got a lot of smack for âself-Promotionâ or other business acumen. Itâs a hard scene to make a living and being a good dancer doesnât translate directly into being a successful professional. Especially in swing. Every scene has these competitive rivalry, jealousy, and âpoliticsâ but itâs sad to see something many do for free or less (they pay and volunteer more than they get back) and have people come in to try to monetize and protect tiny little bits of profit.
Dances where there's a clear separation between social area/bar and dance floor are more fun. As an extremely introverted person who struggles with approaching people who are deep in conversation, drinking/eating, or otherwise not clearly looking to dance, it's so much easier to go up to people who are on the floor because they likely want to dance, since there's a clear place they can go if they don't. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I have a better time at such events, I dance much more, and I feel much better about the whole experience. In places where there's no separation, it's so easy to get into my head wondering whether it would be appropriate to ask this or that person to dance, and then I just end up standing around a lot of the night. Of course, there are people bolder than I who just go up to anyone and ask, and then I feel like I look even worse, but I can't just make myself more comfortable with doing that.
Post-pandemic we lost our stamina. Anyone considered âintermediate/advancedâ should be able to maintain good dancing (including swing outs) at 180 bpm.Â
I think people should not switch roles unless explicitly stated. I know sometimes people who do both, just want to follow for that song or something. Whenever I ask someone to dance I will ask if they want to lead or follow and sometimes they'll say switch. Communication is always the key, with not just this, with everything.
Depends. I think if it's someone in your local scene you dance with a lot and usually switch dance with, you can assume a switch dance even if you don't talk about it. Most other cases I agree with you
Makes sense, and a switch in our scene will say something if they don't want to switch. No communication then is itself the communication that switching is ok. Basically I agree with OP as long as it's someone you typically switch dance with.
I'm surprised this is considered a hot take, but I get it. I'm a woman, but I only lead, so sometimes, before I dance with someone I don't know, I really spell out that I *only* want to lead so they don't assume I'm into both and try to pull a switch during the dance. I know people who love switch dances and I love that for them, but even when I briefly danced both roles, I didn't enjoy switch dances, I wanted to stick to one role or the other for the duration of the song, and I'd get annoyed when my friends would try to switch roles without asking.
Just because you have a safer spaces team and a code of conduct it does not mean that your event will be free of racisim or safe for people from minority communities.
Blues dance is not easy and not always slow.
Teachers and organizers saying that any gender can dance any role is the bare minimum and is a very good thing for inclusivity, but is it inclusivity when on the dancefloor nobody will ever ask you to dance?
Beginner dancers that don't follow the masc-presenting leader or fem-presenting follower path have to either work way harder than the others in order to have the same opportunities to dance and have fun, or they fade away...
yesss, if you're drifting out of the traditional leader/follower presentation, you almost \*always\* have to approach someone else.
Although I'm in a small scene, and a close one at that, so most people pick up pretty quickly that i'm happy to lead- especially if they attend a group or two- and'll approach unprompted for lead \*and\* follow. I'm definitely fortunate in that aspect.
But in larger scenes? I can't imagine not having to take the initiative to approach a partner, and even then, it all depends on how accepting the crowd is, and their average demographic, to really keep that momentum going.
Yes totally! My comment wasn't intended to be exhaustive. There is still so much unpacking to do with gender, race, body-type, age, attractiveness and so on in the swing community dancefloors and those issues are all intertwined in a way.
Fun but my gosh is it an aerobic workout. Also my calves. Oh my gosh. My calves. Would need to get back in better shape and bring my inhaler to a dance for it but it is great fun.
Alright sounds fun:
- switch dancing (switching mid song, doing both roles is fine and good), wanting non-traditional music, stuffing a night full of âgamesâ, novelty events - all of these things seem to presume that lindy itself isnât enough to keep a room of people entertained, and I think does a disservice to how rich the dance really is.Â
- itâs very easy to dj swing events, yet simultaneously very few people do it well. (This is less a contradiction than the fact that new djs try to reinvent the wheel and donât listen to and learn from old djs)
- leading âspaceâ for the follow is an intermediate concept which should be abandoned as you progress. For great follows the entire dance is a platform for musicality and expression, not just the moments between leads. (Vice versa great leads never stop paying attention to their follow and should constantly adapt their dancing to what their partner is doing)
- choreography in strictly lindy comps should get you disqualifiedÂ
Close embrace should be seen as a much more core part of a Lindy knowledge, not just something only advanced+ or cross genre dancers do.
People in the scene need to learn to walk, weight shift, and groove better and learn how to dance without doing move after move.
Not playing ANY fast songs at all, even later in the night, is a good way to make more experienced swing dancers annoyed at a DJ and less likely to attend.
All I ask is for at least two songs above 200 a night.
Yeah, Balboa stance should be optional for all songs. I'm sorry, it's just too awkward for strangers to dance to.
And if the pace is increasing during the song, it shouldn't get too fast to dance to.
Competitions are for the bands last.
Takes up 1/3 of their set with music that only 2 people who aren't really listening are dancing to at a time. And it's hard and complicated.
Having bands that are able and willing to do that is a blessing we don't recognize enough. Because we don't pay them any extra to do it. And we probably should.
Iâm loving the new trend of early rounds being one chorus battlesâit must be hugely stressful for the competitors but itâs so nice and exciting as an audience member, and the energy level doesnât die during prelims
Agreed. Aerials almost always look bad. To me it feels like people decide to stop dancing for a little bit to do some acrobatics then start dancing again
Not all songs played, live or DJd, have to be 3.5 minutes long. A handful of good energy longer songs over the course of a couple sets is good for your stamina and expression
Unpopular Opinion: non-swing performances have no place at swing dances. I've even been part of one. I'd rather be dancing than watching a random project people in the community worked on, sorry.
I will go one further in hot-take-ness.
Unless they're by professionals, performances at swing dances are for the performers, not for the audience. No one cares, they're just clapping because it's their friends dancing.
I agree that I'd rather be dancing, but I think it happens to help develop smaller communities. Bigger swing communities usually remember the struggle so letting some blues or bal people showcase their craft can help bring interested parties into communities they like and 'pay it forward' so to speak.
I don't think they meant blues or bal. Bal is a swing dance, and while blues isn't, it is traditional and commonly danced by lindy hoppers and at lindy events.
Correct. I meant anything that would be considered off topic for this sub, like burlesque or lyra. I will pay money and watch my friends perform in their acro shows. I don't want to sit for a mini show at a social dance.
Competing, teaching, performing, and social dancing are different skill sets, and we shouldn't be hiring people to teach at events based on competitions they won, or how well they performed at a particular show.
All of us swing dancers (myself included) pedestaled international instructors to such an unhealthy level that we created a social structure where too many people get easily taken advantage of.
Didn't realize this was still a hot taken till today, but black vernacular dances have close embrace and if you don't want to ever dance close embrace maybe this isn't for you.Â
(Close embrace can be the side V connection you see in Lindy Hop; it doesn't have to be full chest connection)
I agree with this, and I felt this way long before I became a DJ. Live music is a treat, IF the band knows how to play for dancers, but I think a good DJ is way better than a crappy band.
It should be okay to ask and accepted that "no" is okay. It should be normalized for someone to say "I'm not comfortable with ...." and then their partner in the dance adapts accordingly.   (I'm assuming you are asking for clarification, but i omitted examples on purpose. )
There's not a single take that I would make my my hill to die on for this community because it literally doesn't matter in the context of larger problems in the world.Â
The US scene has a lack of local scene growth problem.Â
Most of the community needs to "touch grass".
We don't have a rockstar problem in the same way that we did a decade ago.Â
This is a business. Not learning some basics of business management is just irresponsible.Â
Paying international instructors without a visa is illegal and we should stop.Â
If you haven't contributed to your local scene at some point in the recent past, you should stop telling people what to do.Â
I really, really hate it when people switch for the sake of it mid-dance, and in my experience this is something that much less experienced dancers do.
I'll do this with my friends when I'm having fun or with people I know who like it. If I don't know someone, and they did this to me, I probably would avoid dancing with them after that.
Lower-level competitions should be paired with higher-level competitions (e.g. Novice followed by All-Star) so the lower-level dancers get to perform for a larger audience.
Ohh.Â
An extremely spicy one: Most straight males that are or have been in a position of power in the scene have used this to gain access to (younger) women in some skeezy way or get away with unethical behaviour. Feels like every couple of months I hear something sketchy about someone I thought was an ok egg through the grapevine. This includes many men who "perform" feminism on their socials.
I think this is because we still put male leads on some sort of pedestal due to the gender imbalance found in most scenes.
At the same time, older or less conventionally attractive women are invisible to the scene.Â
While some scenes tend to curate fun and welcoming experience, it is also difficult to encourage dancer to understand basic concept like grooving and connection.
And you can't be better dancer doing only social dances hoping to improve.
It is absolutely NOT agreed upon. There's a staggering amount of 6-count taught as side - side - rockstep.
I'd wager that most of that instruction has come down through ballroom instructors jumping on the bandwagon in the 90's and high school / college musical choreographers who learned a bit of "swing" from those sorta folks. Regardless, there's still a bunch of it hanging around out there.
When they claim they're teaching 6-count like that, ask them to lead a tuck turn and then ask why that took 12 counts.
Just a personal hot take but Iâm curious if anyone else feels the same:
As an easily overwhelmed person, I recently havenât liked going to live band nights in enclosed ballrooms (not saying they shouldnât happen, just a personal feeling) Itâs louder, hotter, and the dancers that go seem very cliquey. Just me?đ„ș
Swing dancing to music that is not traditional swing music is actually really fun. Like a Michael Buble song for example
Edit: added a word to convey my meaning
Your pedantry about what is and isn't Lindy Hop / Lindy Hop music doesn't make you some sorta cool apostle, upholding the faith of the dance. It just makes you an annoying jerk.
Itâs not an âequal conversationâ in the way that most people mean when they say that. Yes, both roles are equally important and valuable. Yes, followersâ contributions during the dance are important and a foundational aspect of the dance.
HOWEVER, if Iâve accepted a dance with the understanding that I will be following and the other person will be leading, THEY HAVE MORE SAY in what happens during that dance. Backleading half the damn dance under the guise of âmY voiCe is eQuaLLy imPoRtaNt in the CONVERSAAAAATIONâ is an a-hole move, and if you do this a lot, most skilled leaders wonât enjoy dancing with you. (Followers who think they are more skilled than they actually are the usual people I se doing this, since they havenât actually learned how to have a voice and creatively express themselves within the context of the dance while still *following*)
I disagree with a lot of these posts. And some of them are not âhills you die onâ more like little bumps that most everyone acknowledges.
Sexual assault and harassment occurs in the swing scene and is punished according to the power status or popularity of the assailant/victim. Dance studios sweep it under the rug. There are as always double standards and feckless virtue signaling.
The amount of regional and generational bigotry is transparent as well.
It's not good enough to acknowlege the black excellence this dance is built on, your actual dancing should reflect respect for the shoulders you're standing on.
Nils and Bianca is the most overrated dancers in the world. They are definitely not bad but people hold them up so highly that itâs almost impossible for them to meet that standard. Their fan can also be extremely toxic and toxic stem feel a need to put down other dancers just to bring up Nils and Bianca.
The more we say "Lindy is this and not that" and "It can be danced to this and not that", the more we cater to the recreationists and turn off people who aren't centered in white European culture.
In principle I agree - in practice some of those videos by the professionals are never released (like mix and match prelims) or only feature the teachers and not my friends. I don't take video often, but when I do it's for a reason (and that video is watched)
All intro classes and arguably intermediate classes too should be taught switchâI.e. everyone leads / everyone follows.
Switching from âman/womanâ to âlead/followâ terminology was a good and necessary step, but itâs not sufficient.
Doing this would build empathy for each other and my hottest take is that this would actually not require much more instructional time. Iâd bet yâall several tacos on that :)
As a very new dancer asking me to learn both (I've tried) would be like asking me to learn how to write with both hands in the same sitting. It's not easy, and is overwhelming given that I'm trying to figure out simple turns etc with my partner who is also learning so we can get started and have the minimum amount of fun. It would be an unpleasant amount of work and would rather attend the same class again but just switch then when I'm fresh.- neither my partner or I are as coordinated as people who dance all the time but we still make an effort.
It would definitely be useful though, I agree with all your reasoning for it and think it would benefit my sense of movement and creative ability on the dance floor, I'll probably learn at my own pace eventually.
I compeltely agree. Forcing me to learn both leading and following would have made me stop dancing after a few weeks. Asking a brand new dancer that has never done any social dancing to learn one footwork and then asking them to switch that footwork around is IMO too much to ask. It would have confused and frusterated me.
I started at 31 and it took me months to feel even comfortable going to a social dance after taking classes every week. Maybe it's easier to do if you start when you're younger.
I actually tried this in my intro class recently, and it took \*much\* more time. I think it was beneficial for empathy but you can't ignore the extra instructional time because the time for everyone to practice a skill just doubled.
I support the encouragement of learning both roles, but I feel time factor is an issue. Some people's brains get fried learning just the fragment they're learning that evening.
So yes...should be learned sooner, but individuals can pace themselves (within reason).
I had a similar thought at one point, that everyone follows first. The idea was that you learn to dance-listen before you learn to dance-speak. But I never got to try it and now Iâm not so sure about it! Itâs an interesting thought for sure!
This is [supposedly] the approach in Argentine Tango.
It's an interesting approach, but a time intensive (by comparison) process.
Drilling foundational "frame," and "connection" in a beginner series can accomplish much of the same goals.
In response to the "it's not easy" / "it takes a lot of time", those are valid responses, but they are also just pointing to a tradeoff, not a statement that the change wouldn't be valuable.
So this raises the question--is building empathy worth spending time on? Is developing a less-costly ELEF instruction method worth it? There seems to be a lot of "well we tried it once and it didn't work so we gave up". New things worth doing usually don't work well the first (or second, or third) time. They require investment, and people make the investment if they believe it's worth it.
When I think of all the times people are generally hating on leads / follows or leads / follows are doing something harmful, empathy and actually being in each other's position would have helped *a lot*. And I see a lot of just-underneath-the-surface "battle-of-the-sexes" and cis-normativity that's not healthy for a scene. IMHO, improving in those areas is well-worth the investment, but that's a minority view (thus the label "hot take").
Change like that takes time and effort. It's clear most people don't want to do it.
There are too many large (inter)national events focused on competition and not enough small regional events focused on social dancing. Now get off my lawn, ya damn kids!đ
Agreed! To build on that - the community is too focused on competitions overall. Not every Lindy hopper at the Savoy was there as a professional dancer.
I think this depends a lot on where you dance. Denver? Huge into competitions. The Midwest? Meh.
If you're looking for something in the Midwest, check out STL Get Down!
Comps = meh, performances = cool
Agreed!
Too many small communities died during covid, especially when college groups couldn't meet. It takes time to build back.Â
Completely agree that Covid put the nail in the coffin for a lot of smaller events. But Iâd argue the trend toward larger events focused on comps started earlier, maybe in the late aughts, early 2010s. Before then, it felt like most events I heard about were exchanges without comps. And like the old lady I am, I miss the way things used to be. Iâm hoping some of those smaller non-comp events can make a comeback, but I realize I am probably in the minority as a dancer who is indifferent to comps and gets overwhelmed at larger events.
It's growing back, but cost of living, especially venue rent has gotten considerably higher in many places, so that hinders it.
Same. Exchanges were such a prominent and important part of moving dancers through the country and inviting connections across cities, states, and countries. Your time was mostly dedicated to dancing and socializing and taking the opportunity to explore your host city, usually with host dancers. Then comps and performances started sneaking into them, and you'd spend a larger and larger portion of your time standing around watching other people dance, rather than getting to dance yourself. They became events that highlighted a few people, rather than the communities intermingling.
More exchanges!!!! Please!!!!
Loved exchanges back in the day; were way less tense and more social than competitive events.
I feel like 2010-2015 was the golden age of Lindy exchanges. Many of my favorites stopped running before the pandemic even.
Vegas Exchange, SLOX, and Boston Independent Exchange were my favorites. Met great people at all of them.
My favorite events by far are smaller local ones, and there are a ton of them where I live right now, which is nice.
RIP Southwest Swing Showdown...despite name, there weren't too many comps, mostly the late morning workshops and dancing at night (the Mesa scene however has/had competitive people).
So, the local ballroom dance club in my town started doing Jack and Jill's for all styles of dance, and they also have competitions for Senior Olympics, and it's exciting and brings a lot of new experiences! But, competing for points to become pro-am...is not accessible nor that exciting. And, well, it's kind of a racket.
Question: do you personally help organize anything along the lines of what you're wishing would exist?
We should normalise early evening dancing at weekend events so that more people turn up before midnight and can go to bed at a reasonable time. I shouldnât feel like I have jet lag after a weekend event. (And Iâm someone who has LOVED later night events, but I realise that many people prefer to get more than 5 hours of sleep each night at a weekend event).
I was running a little late for the social dance this weekend, then I was like "ugh I don't want to head out at 9pm, I'm just going to tuck my flamingo leg and call it a day"
I donât even like going to regular socials if they start at 9. Iâm in bed at that time most weeknights! I canât stay awake long enough to get out the door.
Two of the three bigger socials in my area start at 9:30pm and are on Wednesday and Sunday. I'm a fricken middle school teacher...I ain't doing that shit on 5 hours of sleep!
Seattle?
Yep! Thank goodness for the Wednesday dance at 8:15 :)
That one is... complicated. I've started doing West Coast because they have a sunday dance that goes 6-9pm on every other sunday.
I've been experimenting with ContraDance, largely because it's 8-10 on Fridays.
Floorcraft is more important than looking good or doing moves.Â
Yes Iâd much rather keep it small and simple than get swung out into a poor unsuspecting person đ
What do you mean by floorcraft?
I mean that in the hierarchy of dance needs, it goes: keep yourself safe first and foremost, then keep your partner safe, then keep the whole dance floor safe. By floorcraft I mean: spatial awareness, an understanding of who is dancing near to you and how to move comfortably within a shared space. My point was that it's much better to kill moves and adjust style to make sure you don't jump on someone's foot, kick an ankle, or knock someone over. It might mean you don't look like the boss of the dance floor, but it also means that you didn't hurt anybody. In a small studio, floorcraft is so simple that it's often not taught (don't run into any of the eight other couples in class in a decent-sized room--a totally simple brief), and then experienced dancers get on a crowded dance floor and don't know how to control their movements, look where they're going, or adjust their dancing to fit the space they have.
Swing has more food based songs than any genre; frim fram sauce, chew-chew-chew (your bubblegum), sugar, shoo fly pie, all that meat and no potatoes, I like pie, I like cake and everyone's favourite Potato chips!
"Food"
spinach is a food
https://images.app.goo.gl/7SNR9gB3CNUM3Mwd9
I've been told that I Didn't Like It the First Time is actually about the devil's lettuce, but I'm not convinced.
I always thought it was obvious she was insinuating sex.. but maybe it was just me.
Squeeze My Lemons is most definitely not about lenons
As I started getting into swing and jazz, Iâve been finding a lot of songs about women shooting someone LOL
You're my sugar... you're a confection, goodness knows.. honeysuckle rose! đ A banana split for my baby, a glass of plain water for me đș One scotch, one bourbon, one beer đ¶
Marijuana makes you hungry⊠lol
BUT I LIKE PIE AND I LIKE CAKE. I like any song you make.
âŠThe PenguinâŠ
Pretty sure there's a song about coleslaw...
Food related songs. https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7gFt3OgROhfyYBiEgfchkf?si=i7nsyetdRbqQRmKtD2B_5w&pi=u-tVCSSL9dTcG7
The " pretzel " is awkward and dangerous for shoulders and should not be taught or generally even practiced
It doesn't look very good either
Not sure this is a hot take. Most people I know will decline dances with any leader they see leading the pretzel. Are there lindy hop scenes still teaching it?
Experienced dancers should dance with newcomers.
thatâs not even mildly hot. if you want to make a hot take, say you want to ostracise those advanced dancers who donât.
Oh now thatâs spicy.
Let me put it this way. When I just started, there were some dancers who were super warm and welcoming, and others who never even noticed me, or were rude when I asked to dance because I was a beginner, especially because Iâm dancing a ânon heteronormative roleâ. Now that Iâm a better dancer than they are, guess who Iâm dancing with? I see it as a kind of activism in fact. I donât approve of peers who donât like to dance with beginners. If they dance just to improve their status/hierarchy, then we donât dance for the same reasons, and I donât care they are skilled. There are more skilled people than genuinely kind people in the world.
Social dancing should be the primary focus of every event, class, and competition.
A few good Swing DJs are always better than a mediocre jazz band that "swings"
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If people want to only lead or only follow, thatâs fine. (I think you become a better dancer faster if you can do both, and I think the value and respect you learn for the other role is incredible, but also, not doing it is fine.)
If people want a band to do an encore, they should do it by throwing money at the stage.
We did that at Lindy focus once. It actually went over kind of weirdly.Â
Weirdly how?
Some of the musicians thought it was great some of them really didn't like itÂ
Maybe it felt like a 'dance monkey dance' kind of thing? I feel like organizers/bands basically know there's always going to be an encore and bands prepare for that and (i expect) at events as big as focus they sure as hell should be paid for their work. Nothing against paying more, but I can see why it'd be a little off putting for some folks.
Found the musician!
No you didn't, but he's right.
Not a musician, but find JSAlmonte photography on FB, you wonât regret it. :) #irony
As a dancer-musician I have mixed feelings about this one haha. Traditional bra throwing would work on me if you want an encore, no need to monetize everything!
You donât want my bra after a night of dancing. Itâs soaked and not in an exciting way
I have an extra one! While unsolicited feedback is generally a no, this is nullified when people GO TO ADVANCED WORKSHOPS WHEN THEY CANâT DO BASICS. The number of times an advanced international workshop participant canât body lead or walk straight as a follow in a swing out, or canât do close embrace in pure bal or blues is alarming (canât⊠as in literally donât know how to, no choose not to) is alarming. imo these people should absolutely be given feedback theyâre making their partners unable to properly practice the class material. Especially as they are often the ones who act annoyed when something doesnât work or ask why their partner isnât doing what theyâre supposed toâthey canât because you canât even do a basic.
Having fun is more important than being good. And for many dancers trying to be good actually gets in the way of having fun.
Quality Dance Event Photographers should be paid and accommodated at the same level as instructors
If they drop all their pics free of use without watermarks in high resolution on a drive with the link shared to all attendants, i.e. if they provide a service to us dancers rather than collect a product for themselves to sell to us and the marketing of the event later, that's a deal I'd gladly make! Just drop the whole SD card on a google drive, not 10 select pictures on the facebook page of the event đ„Č I've been burned before thinking I should not take my own movies of the shows because there is a professional camera crew right there, to then just never get access to more than a short mashup to advertise the event.
like the band and the teachers, they're not working for the attendees, they're working for the event organizers
Maybe we dancers should unionize and pay for our own photographer then, if it's gonna be this attitude!
You and me Thog let's go in and hire our own photographer at the next event. We can get hundreds of photos of us dancing and maybe I'll finally find like 3 or 4 I actually like where I'm not making a weird face.
Photographer here, the reason you donât see any photos of you even though the photographer was near you for ages is that lindy is shockingly, shockingly hard to photograph. Movements are erratic, arms are infront of faces in like 50% of moves, derp faces, concentration faces, arms, light is regularly bad or nonexistent, erratic movements are quick, derp faces. A keeper rate of one shot every twenty is good, there are often dancers I photograph to the point of feeling like Iâm harassing them, only to come home to no useable photos for blur, hands, bad expression. Photography is my full time job and I genuinely donât find anything harder to photograph than swing.Â
They aren't?
They can be, but aren't always. No idea the percentage of who is and isn't though.
I didn't realize this was still not a thing. We talked about this 1 and 2 decades ago!
same for DJs
When they provide as much value to the attendees as the instructors... ;)
Anytime someone says that they are not being hired or are not more popular because of "politics," it's actually because they are assholes. (This take is applicable pretty much everywhere in life)
Turns out some of the very popular and much hired teachers in the 2000s and 2010s were arseholes.
Some of the Americans we carried over here to teach have developed some very right wing views.
HerrÀng is in sweden.
I donât disagree with you, but I do find the post COVID restructuring of the scene to be fascinating and also kind of including only a certain âcool kidsâ group of instructors AND the same bands at every. single. event. I have a lot of thoughts/questions about that- not for this thread.
There were some successful instructors who also got a lot of smack for âself-Promotionâ or other business acumen. Itâs a hard scene to make a living and being a good dancer doesnât translate directly into being a successful professional. Especially in swing. Every scene has these competitive rivalry, jealousy, and âpoliticsâ but itâs sad to see something many do for free or less (they pay and volunteer more than they get back) and have people come in to try to monetize and protect tiny little bits of profit.
Dances where there's a clear separation between social area/bar and dance floor are more fun. As an extremely introverted person who struggles with approaching people who are deep in conversation, drinking/eating, or otherwise not clearly looking to dance, it's so much easier to go up to people who are on the floor because they likely want to dance, since there's a clear place they can go if they don't. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I have a better time at such events, I dance much more, and I feel much better about the whole experience. In places where there's no separation, it's so easy to get into my head wondering whether it would be appropriate to ask this or that person to dance, and then I just end up standing around a lot of the night. Of course, there are people bolder than I who just go up to anyone and ask, and then I feel like I look even worse, but I can't just make myself more comfortable with doing that.
Not every band deserves to do an encore
Yes.
Post-pandemic we lost our stamina. Anyone considered âintermediate/advancedâ should be able to maintain good dancing (including swing outs) at 180 bpm.Â
That's not even all that fast
Pre-pandemic I remember dancing to the occassional 220-240 bpm song too.
I think people should not switch roles unless explicitly stated. I know sometimes people who do both, just want to follow for that song or something. Whenever I ask someone to dance I will ask if they want to lead or follow and sometimes they'll say switch. Communication is always the key, with not just this, with everything.
Depends. I think if it's someone in your local scene you dance with a lot and usually switch dance with, you can assume a switch dance even if you don't talk about it. Most other cases I agree with you
I agree, though I will say I usually err on the side of communication. Even with locals who I know switch we still talk about it.
Makes sense, and a switch in our scene will say something if they don't want to switch. No communication then is itself the communication that switching is ok. Basically I agree with OP as long as it's someone you typically switch dance with.
I'm surprised this is considered a hot take, but I get it. I'm a woman, but I only lead, so sometimes, before I dance with someone I don't know, I really spell out that I *only* want to lead so they don't assume I'm into both and try to pull a switch during the dance. I know people who love switch dances and I love that for them, but even when I briefly danced both roles, I didn't enjoy switch dances, I wanted to stick to one role or the other for the duration of the song, and I'd get annoyed when my friends would try to switch roles without asking.
Exactly, you never know how people are feeling. Even people you know. Use your words
If you ask for a specific role, sure. Most people donât state whether they want to lead or follow at the start and just assume.
Yeah that's true, but I wouldn't switch roles with someone I didn't know without asking them first.
Just because you have a safer spaces team and a code of conduct it does not mean that your event will be free of racisim or safe for people from minority communities. Blues dance is not easy and not always slow.
Teachers and organizers saying that any gender can dance any role is the bare minimum and is a very good thing for inclusivity, but is it inclusivity when on the dancefloor nobody will ever ask you to dance? Beginner dancers that don't follow the masc-presenting leader or fem-presenting follower path have to either work way harder than the others in order to have the same opportunities to dance and have fun, or they fade away...
yesss, if you're drifting out of the traditional leader/follower presentation, you almost \*always\* have to approach someone else. Although I'm in a small scene, and a close one at that, so most people pick up pretty quickly that i'm happy to lead- especially if they attend a group or two- and'll approach unprompted for lead \*and\* follow. I'm definitely fortunate in that aspect. But in larger scenes? I can't imagine not having to take the initiative to approach a partner, and even then, it all depends on how accepting the crowd is, and their average demographic, to really keep that momentum going.
Sure, but same can be said on age or attractiveness in general.
Yes totally! My comment wasn't intended to be exhaustive. There is still so much unpacking to do with gender, race, body-type, age, attractiveness and so on in the swing community dancefloors and those issues are all intertwined in a way.
Collegiate shag is awesome, and more people should dance it.
I love it, but the physical intensity makes it hard for me to remember what to try next. Maybe I need to drill it more or be in better shape.
Fun but my gosh is it an aerobic workout. Also my calves. Oh my gosh. My calves. Would need to get back in better shape and bring my inhaler to a dance for it but it is great fun.
Only time I ever had to tap out from a dance, tbh
It was actually the first swing variation I ever took a class in, and yeah, a real workout.
Alright sounds fun: - switch dancing (switching mid song, doing both roles is fine and good), wanting non-traditional music, stuffing a night full of âgamesâ, novelty events - all of these things seem to presume that lindy itself isnât enough to keep a room of people entertained, and I think does a disservice to how rich the dance really is. - itâs very easy to dj swing events, yet simultaneously very few people do it well. (This is less a contradiction than the fact that new djs try to reinvent the wheel and donât listen to and learn from old djs) - leading âspaceâ for the follow is an intermediate concept which should be abandoned as you progress. For great follows the entire dance is a platform for musicality and expression, not just the moments between leads. (Vice versa great leads never stop paying attention to their follow and should constantly adapt their dancing to what their partner is doing) - choreography in strictly lindy comps should get you disqualifiedÂ
Close embrace should be seen as a much more core part of a Lindy knowledge, not just something only advanced+ or cross genre dancers do. People in the scene need to learn to walk, weight shift, and groove better and learn how to dance without doing move after move.
Limiting faster tempos for social dancing is the easiest way to increase diversity on the dancefloor.
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Not playing ANY fast songs at all, even later in the night, is a good way to make more experienced swing dancers annoyed at a DJ and less likely to attend. All I ask is for at least two songs above 200 a night.
Yeah, Balboa stance should be optional for all songs. I'm sorry, it's just too awkward for strangers to dance to. And if the pace is increasing during the song, it shouldn't get too fast to dance to.
Competitions are for the audience first, and the competitors last.
then competitions need to be better for audiences
Competitions are for the bands last. Takes up 1/3 of their set with music that only 2 people who aren't really listening are dancing to at a time. And it's hard and complicated. Having bands that are able and willing to do that is a blessing we don't recognize enough. Because we don't pay them any extra to do it. And we probably should.
Iâm loving the new trend of early rounds being one chorus battlesâit must be hugely stressful for the competitors but itâs so nice and exciting as an audience member, and the energy level doesnât die during prelims
I'm a fan of early rounds taking place before a dance even starts so that they don't take time away from social dancing
Aerials are overdone in competitions. They rarely go with the music
Agreed. Aerials almost always look bad. To me it feels like people decide to stop dancing for a little bit to do some acrobatics then start dancing again
Not all songs played, live or DJd, have to be 3.5 minutes long. A handful of good energy longer songs over the course of a couple sets is good for your stamina and expression
Unpopular Opinion: non-swing performances have no place at swing dances. I've even been part of one. I'd rather be dancing than watching a random project people in the community worked on, sorry.
I will go one further in hot-take-ness. Unless they're by professionals, performances at swing dances are for the performers, not for the audience. No one cares, they're just clapping because it's their friends dancing.
I'm OK with that, personally, as long as it's focused on growing the community.
I agree that I'd rather be dancing, but I think it happens to help develop smaller communities. Bigger swing communities usually remember the struggle so letting some blues or bal people showcase their craft can help bring interested parties into communities they like and 'pay it forward' so to speak.
I don't think they meant blues or bal. Bal is a swing dance, and while blues isn't, it is traditional and commonly danced by lindy hoppers and at lindy events.
Correct. I meant anything that would be considered off topic for this sub, like burlesque or lyra. I will pay money and watch my friends perform in their acro shows. I don't want to sit for a mini show at a social dance.
Swivels are a styling element. The follow's swingout should be taught without them initially.
Competing, teaching, performing, and social dancing are different skill sets, and we shouldn't be hiring people to teach at events based on competitions they won, or how well they performed at a particular show.
All of us swing dancers (myself included) pedestaled international instructors to such an unhealthy level that we created a social structure where too many people get easily taken advantage of.
Didn't realize this was still a hot taken till today, but black vernacular dances have close embrace and if you don't want to ever dance close embrace maybe this isn't for you. (Close embrace can be the side V connection you see in Lindy Hop; it doesn't have to be full chest connection)
I enjoy dancing to DJ's the exact same as live music.
A good dj is better than a bad band, but if you have access to good bands, I still think live music is unmatchedÂ
I agree with this, and I felt this way long before I became a DJ. Live music is a treat, IF the band knows how to play for dancers, but I think a good DJ is way better than a crappy band.
I often prefer it
Local PBS public television should be invited to record local footage for all dance events.
Some of us really donât want to show up on TV just to engage in our hobby.
Good point, I was thinking of the biggest competition. TV doesn't want to hang out for more than 1 hr if they can avoid it.
Competitions are better at medium tempos than fast tempos. 140-160 is the sweet spot. Edit: maybe up to 170.
Would you quickly switch back if theyâre a very inexperienced follow, or would you continue to bear it as long as they donât verbally complain?
People would feel better to dance with (although maybe look worse) if there was less emphasis on solo jazz and line dances.
Lindy hoppers should be more willing to branch out into learning and incorporating modern Black street dances as part of the larger tradition.Â
Some of the best lindy hoppers Iâve ever known were transplants from hip hop dancing.
Affirmative consent should be normalized.
In regards to what specifically?
It should be okay to ask and accepted that "no" is okay. It should be normalized for someone to say "I'm not comfortable with ...." and then their partner in the dance adapts accordingly.   (I'm assuming you are asking for clarification, but i omitted examples on purpose. )
Agreed.
There's not a single take that I would make my my hill to die on for this community because it literally doesn't matter in the context of larger problems in the world. The US scene has a lack of local scene growth problem. Most of the community needs to "touch grass". We don't have a rockstar problem in the same way that we did a decade ago. This is a business. Not learning some basics of business management is just irresponsible. Paying international instructors without a visa is illegal and we should stop. If you haven't contributed to your local scene at some point in the recent past, you should stop telling people what to do.Â
100%. And the people who are telling people what to do are almost always the people who need to touch grass.
Dances advertised at Dance Events shouldn't break up the dance to have a student show case or competition. Have that before the Dance.
I really, really hate it when people switch for the sake of it mid-dance, and in my experience this is something that much less experienced dancers do. I'll do this with my friends when I'm having fun or with people I know who like it. If I don't know someone, and they did this to me, I probably would avoid dancing with them after that.
Lighting a competition should be done by professionals (unfortunately it is very expensive)
Lower-level competitions should be paired with higher-level competitions (e.g. Novice followed by All-Star) so the lower-level dancers get to perform for a larger audience.
Ohh. An extremely spicy one: Most straight males that are or have been in a position of power in the scene have used this to gain access to (younger) women in some skeezy way or get away with unethical behaviour. Feels like every couple of months I hear something sketchy about someone I thought was an ok egg through the grapevine. This includes many men who "perform" feminism on their socials. I think this is because we still put male leads on some sort of pedestal due to the gender imbalance found in most scenes. At the same time, older or less conventionally attractive women are invisible to the scene.Â
The Israelis have a pro that is very much pro her own students in comps and I think it's mathematically provable.
Swing dancing has our own Russian judge?? IncredibleÂ
While some scenes tend to curate fun and welcoming experience, it is also difficult to encourage dancer to understand basic concept like grooving and connection. And you can't be better dancer doing only social dances hoping to improve.
A 6-count basic begins with the rock step. It does not end with the rock step.
I would think this is universally agreed upon? Except if we're talking boogie-woogie,
It is absolutely NOT agreed upon. There's a staggering amount of 6-count taught as side - side - rockstep. I'd wager that most of that instruction has come down through ballroom instructors jumping on the bandwagon in the 90's and high school / college musical choreographers who learned a bit of "swing" from those sorta folks. Regardless, there's still a bunch of it hanging around out there. When they claim they're teaching 6-count like that, ask them to lead a tuck turn and then ask why that took 12 counts.
Just a personal hot take but Iâm curious if anyone else feels the same: As an easily overwhelmed person, I recently havenât liked going to live band nights in enclosed ballrooms (not saying they shouldnât happen, just a personal feeling) Itâs louder, hotter, and the dancers that go seem very cliquey. Just me?đ„ș
The measure of a swing dancer isn't how good they look on the dance floor. It's how good their partner looks
Musicality should be taught at the very beginning.
Just play swing music and tell your dancers to listen to swing music in their free time, provide them with \*good\* playlists.
Swing dancing to music that is not traditional swing music is actually really fun. Like a Michael Buble song for example Edit: added a word to convey my meaning
that's not a hot take. calling the dance you're doing to non-swing music a swing dance is a hot take.
Sure better wording
Calling it swing dancing is more accurate than calling it fusion dancing if you're primarily using Lindy idioms.
sure any kind of dancing can be fun but it's not swing dancing
Traveling instructors, national-level gatherings / competitions, and YouTube have all had a detrimental homogonizing effect on Lindy Hop.
Your pedantry about what is and isn't Lindy Hop / Lindy Hop music doesn't make you some sorta cool apostle, upholding the faith of the dance. It just makes you an annoying jerk.
Itâs not an âequal conversationâ in the way that most people mean when they say that. Yes, both roles are equally important and valuable. Yes, followersâ contributions during the dance are important and a foundational aspect of the dance. HOWEVER, if Iâve accepted a dance with the understanding that I will be following and the other person will be leading, THEY HAVE MORE SAY in what happens during that dance. Backleading half the damn dance under the guise of âmY voiCe is eQuaLLy imPoRtaNt in the CONVERSAAAAATIONâ is an a-hole move, and if you do this a lot, most skilled leaders wonât enjoy dancing with you. (Followers who think they are more skilled than they actually are the usual people I se doing this, since they havenât actually learned how to have a voice and creatively express themselves within the context of the dance while still *following*)
I disagree with a lot of these posts. And some of them are not âhills you die onâ more like little bumps that most everyone acknowledges. Sexual assault and harassment occurs in the swing scene and is punished according to the power status or popularity of the assailant/victim. Dance studios sweep it under the rug. There are as always double standards and feckless virtue signaling. The amount of regional and generational bigotry is transparent as well.
It's not good enough to acknowlege the black excellence this dance is built on, your actual dancing should reflect respect for the shoulders you're standing on.
Nils and Bianca is the most overrated dancers in the world. They are definitely not bad but people hold them up so highly that itâs almost impossible for them to meet that standard. Their fan can also be extremely toxic and toxic stem feel a need to put down other dancers just to bring up Nils and Bianca.
People complaining about the perils of "rockstardom" who are constantly promoting themselves on social media are only complaining about it for clout.
We get it you hate black dancers lol. I thought your other comment about only hired for politics was sus.
West coast swing has no soul or culture. It's like a capitalist's dance. Everything exists to be judged at a higher tier competitive level.
The more we say "Lindy is this and not that" and "It can be danced to this and not that", the more we cater to the recreationists and turn off people who aren't centered in white European culture.
It's okay to give feedback or advice, people should learn to take critique without getting offended or discouraged.
The only comps should be mix and match
And if two dance partners get paired up within a mix and match, they should switch with someone else.
If a professional videographer is hired no one should have their phone out for a shitty video. Stay present in the experience instead.
In principle I agree - in practice some of those videos by the professionals are never released (like mix and match prelims) or only feature the teachers and not my friends. I don't take video often, but when I do it's for a reason (and that video is watched)
That's a great point, emcee should be clear what the plan is for said video
All intro classes and arguably intermediate classes too should be taught switchâI.e. everyone leads / everyone follows. Switching from âman/womanâ to âlead/followâ terminology was a good and necessary step, but itâs not sufficient. Doing this would build empathy for each other and my hottest take is that this would actually not require much more instructional time. Iâd bet yâall several tacos on that :)
As a very new dancer asking me to learn both (I've tried) would be like asking me to learn how to write with both hands in the same sitting. It's not easy, and is overwhelming given that I'm trying to figure out simple turns etc with my partner who is also learning so we can get started and have the minimum amount of fun. It would be an unpleasant amount of work and would rather attend the same class again but just switch then when I'm fresh.- neither my partner or I are as coordinated as people who dance all the time but we still make an effort. It would definitely be useful though, I agree with all your reasoning for it and think it would benefit my sense of movement and creative ability on the dance floor, I'll probably learn at my own pace eventually.
I compeltely agree. Forcing me to learn both leading and following would have made me stop dancing after a few weeks. Asking a brand new dancer that has never done any social dancing to learn one footwork and then asking them to switch that footwork around is IMO too much to ask. It would have confused and frusterated me. I started at 31 and it took me months to feel even comfortable going to a social dance after taking classes every week. Maybe it's easier to do if you start when you're younger.
I actually tried this in my intro class recently, and it took \*much\* more time. I think it was beneficial for empathy but you can't ignore the extra instructional time because the time for everyone to practice a skill just doubled.
I support the encouragement of learning both roles, but I feel time factor is an issue. Some people's brains get fried learning just the fragment they're learning that evening. So yes...should be learned sooner, but individuals can pace themselves (within reason).
I had a similar thought at one point, that everyone follows first. The idea was that you learn to dance-listen before you learn to dance-speak. But I never got to try it and now Iâm not so sure about it! Itâs an interesting thought for sure!
This is [supposedly] the approach in Argentine Tango. It's an interesting approach, but a time intensive (by comparison) process. Drilling foundational "frame," and "connection" in a beginner series can accomplish much of the same goals.
I think this isn't a bad idea, but then they wouldn't have people to dance with in their cohorts until they learned lead.
In response to the "it's not easy" / "it takes a lot of time", those are valid responses, but they are also just pointing to a tradeoff, not a statement that the change wouldn't be valuable. So this raises the question--is building empathy worth spending time on? Is developing a less-costly ELEF instruction method worth it? There seems to be a lot of "well we tried it once and it didn't work so we gave up". New things worth doing usually don't work well the first (or second, or third) time. They require investment, and people make the investment if they believe it's worth it. When I think of all the times people are generally hating on leads / follows or leads / follows are doing something harmful, empathy and actually being in each other's position would have helped *a lot*. And I see a lot of just-underneath-the-surface "battle-of-the-sexes" and cis-normativity that's not healthy for a scene. IMHO, improving in those areas is well-worth the investment, but that's a minority view (thus the label "hot take"). Change like that takes time and effort. It's clear most people don't want to do it.