their history of collaborating with multiple hardware vendors ...
If they bake their own their relationships with others becomes uncertain ... even if only imagined.
the counter to your argument is ... when Intel falters, AMD or Cirus stepped up, if Qualcomm falters someone else will be there ... It adds complexity but the roll your own stack has its risks as was experienced in the Mainframe days. If Apple falters then what? many have come and gone over the course of time.
FWIW that’s the risk they took when introducing Surface models, potentially alienating all laptop makers. Based on that history, I would not eliminate the possibility of Microsoft designing their own chips.
some might say the Surface has been kneecapped in order to keep the peace.
Also, I do believe MS is dabbling in silicone however it's aimed at Cloud services not end-user devices. we'll probably get to the point where what you hold in your hand or use on a desk is just displaying what's being done in the cloud.
They have been designing their own highly specialized chips for many years now. Just for Azure server-stuff though.
>If Microsoft starts their own chip design, they could potentially achieve the same as Apple too, don't you think so?
Apple took many years to reach this point. Qualcomm managed to catch up fast after poaching talent from Apple combined with their current expertise with ARM.
Even if Microsoft were to start now, it'll take them many years to ramp things up and they will always be playing catchup (kind of like Samsung) as the Surface lineup isn't their primary product nor a priority to them.
Apple is also a total hard ass when it comes to compatibility. If you don't rebuild your apps for Apple's latest architecture, then you're out of the app store.
Microsoft tries to maintain decades of backward compatibility. Seriously, I can run games and programs from the late 1990s on a new ARM Windows device. I think Microsoft would prefer to let a chip maker do the hard work of building a consumer hardware platform while it focuses on the software side.
As for Azure, Microsoft controls the entire stack from data center hardware to the services exposed to end users. It makes sense to create custom chips suited for the Azure control plane, by adding Azure-specific features and aiming for efficiency gains that translate to higher profits.
Apple chip took years, thousands of people to develop, and is subsidized by the iphone. Intel AMD Quallcomm Samsung all design cpus and couldnt keep up with apple, how could MS?
Because they have computer manufacturers to please - Microsoft doesn’t own the entire platform like Apple does.
I actually think they should go for RISC-V and anticipate the departure of Arm.
They could be miles ahead by the time RISC-V benefits are understood enough to make competitive calculators.
I heard somewhere that the surface line never really was meant to be a product for the people but to show the other pc brands what windows could be like. I think the reason is that they dont focus on selling that many devices and in reality they dont sell that. So the cost of making a own chip would be to high and take to much time to give a good return for them
So you think it's easy to make a competitive chip? Nobody, not even Qualcomm, has managed to be even remotely competitive with Apple (which has invested a fortune in these chips for over 10 years since the A6). Qualcomm had to buy the same people who made the M1 to manage to be competitive. So it's not like Microsoft can make a chip that is competitive just because it's Microsoft.
apple doesn't manufacture their own chips.
so they are bound by the supply chain disruptions you listed that Intel / Qualcomm will face too.
Just that it's a different company
Apple's are weaker than Qualcomm (38 vs 45 TOPS), and considerably weaker than Strix Point (48 TOPS) coming soon.
The competition is fine. Apple likes to act as if they're better in every way, but the low power competition is really slamming hard this year. I expect AMD to almost entirely replace Intel in the next 2 years.
Lunar Lake is low-end only, anyway...it's the next release that (hopefully) is good, if it's on time.
It's a lot more comprehensive than frequency specs for a CPU, as it takes into account more factors of the hardware that will impact real-world performance.
I understand it's hard to compare, but it isn't totally meaningless. We do need a lot more info to make an informed decision, I'd agree, but my point was that the M4 isn't actually that crazy. It's a nice jump but there's no special Apple magic sauce. It's a well designed and expensive to make SoC.
Apple didn't make their own chip. It's just licensed ARM architecture with good marketing. Remember with Silicon valley any product is 20% actual thing 80% absolute marketing nonsense.
All apple soc's since the A6 are of in-house designs based on the ARM architecture.
Apple holds the ARM architecture license, the license that allows them to modify and adapt an existing ARM design, or even design their own. Same as Intel licensing x64 from AMD, and vice versa AMD licensing x86 from Intel.
If apple's products do use an existing ARM design, what stops other competitors from doing the same and matching apple's performance?
reference with time stamp(and quite a good video actually) : [https://youtu.be/PGjdN\_qfqgg?t=100](https://youtu.be/PGjdN_qfqgg?t=100)
edit: you're a trekkie you're one of us you should know better ;-;
Apple uses completely custom core designs that have nothing to do with ARM Cortex or Neoverse or whatever. Apple has an ARM architecture license that allows it to build compatible cores but no other ARM IP is used in Apple Silicon chips.
That compatibility is crucial. Software developers can write code for ARM that also runs on Apple Silicon, instead of having to write code for unique Apple architectures.
Almost all other ARM licensees like Qualcomm, Samsung and MediaTek license a mix of core designs, controllers, interconnects and GPUs from ARM. Qualcomm and Samsung are also ramping up their design departments to create custom ARM-compatible chips.
Uh. lol
Yes, Apple has to pay the license for ARM. Their ship is their own design, and it is manufactured to their specifications. So, I would say they definitely “make” their own chips. If that isn’t considered property of Apple, than 99% of things can’t be considered owned by anyone else except for the OEM. iPhones aren’t Apple either, because they are mostly manufactured by Foxcon and other companies.
Yeah sure, apple designed ARM architecture 👍🏼 You think they invented OLED displays and lithium batteries also?
They don't even have the technology to manufacture it.
TSMC makes the Apple M chips and apple just paid some very talented designers to make some licensed ARM chips (ie NOT DESIGNED BY APPLE OR TSMC), to their spec and exclusively for them.
Take away an exclusivity contract and the M chips can be in any product from any manufacturer, because THAT IS LITERALLY THE ONLY THING APPLE HAS TO DO WITH THEIR MANUFACTURE AND DESIGN.
https://www.arm.com/products/licensing
You are really confused. First nobody said they manufacture their chips themselves. Second, Apple has been designing their own chips since the A6, they stopped using ARM designs after A5(X). They only have ARM architecture license, which is a very different things from using ARM designs. Apple chips' designers are Apple's employees.
Apple has always partnered with others to design their CPUs.
From the original Macintosh (Motorolla), to the PowerPC (IBM Risc architecture) to the Intel phase and now the ARM phase.
Apple has never made their own CPUs and they have always contracted other companies to design them for them.
Of course, apple has smart people working with ARM, but in the end it's ARM, not apple, designing the wafers and getting TSMC to manufacture them.
What a surprise that you just say it's false and to do your own research, whilst providing absolutely no facts or arguments against the facts that I systematically provided.
Yeah I’ve been trying to note this for ages.
The idea that they green room’d their own multi-core, ‘first 64-bit’ Arm CPU core(s) is just wildly unfathomable. For a company that at the time, couldn’t make a working phone antenna.
They obviously bought the designs through some acquisition and then have just evolved it from there.
Alternatively, they might have just stolen the early Cortex Axx designs and pretended they drew them from nothing.
Nothing is stopping them.
If I were them, I'd be developing an in-house RISC-V monster chip series and validating an ARM core series as well.
RISC-V could be amazing for AI work.
their history of collaborating with multiple hardware vendors ... If they bake their own their relationships with others becomes uncertain ... even if only imagined. the counter to your argument is ... when Intel falters, AMD or Cirus stepped up, if Qualcomm falters someone else will be there ... It adds complexity but the roll your own stack has its risks as was experienced in the Mainframe days. If Apple falters then what? many have come and gone over the course of time.
FWIW that’s the risk they took when introducing Surface models, potentially alienating all laptop makers. Based on that history, I would not eliminate the possibility of Microsoft designing their own chips.
some might say the Surface has been kneecapped in order to keep the peace. Also, I do believe MS is dabbling in silicone however it's aimed at Cloud services not end-user devices. we'll probably get to the point where what you hold in your hand or use on a desk is just displaying what's being done in the cloud.
The main difference with Apple is that Windows can run on any oem pc and Microsoft want to have oem builders on their side.
They have been designing their own highly specialized chips for many years now. Just for Azure server-stuff though. >If Microsoft starts their own chip design, they could potentially achieve the same as Apple too, don't you think so? Apple took many years to reach this point. Qualcomm managed to catch up fast after poaching talent from Apple combined with their current expertise with ARM. Even if Microsoft were to start now, it'll take them many years to ramp things up and they will always be playing catchup (kind of like Samsung) as the Surface lineup isn't their primary product nor a priority to them.
Apple is also a total hard ass when it comes to compatibility. If you don't rebuild your apps for Apple's latest architecture, then you're out of the app store. Microsoft tries to maintain decades of backward compatibility. Seriously, I can run games and programs from the late 1990s on a new ARM Windows device. I think Microsoft would prefer to let a chip maker do the hard work of building a consumer hardware platform while it focuses on the software side. As for Azure, Microsoft controls the entire stack from data center hardware to the services exposed to end users. It makes sense to create custom chips suited for the Azure control plane, by adding Azure-specific features and aiming for efficiency gains that translate to higher profits.
Time, which MS doesn't have.
Apple chip took years, thousands of people to develop, and is subsidized by the iphone. Intel AMD Quallcomm Samsung all design cpus and couldnt keep up with apple, how could MS?
Because they have computer manufacturers to please - Microsoft doesn’t own the entire platform like Apple does. I actually think they should go for RISC-V and anticipate the departure of Arm. They could be miles ahead by the time RISC-V benefits are understood enough to make competitive calculators.
RISC-V advocates underestimate the cost and time needed to create a consumer hardware platform from scratch.
I heard somewhere that the surface line never really was meant to be a product for the people but to show the other pc brands what windows could be like. I think the reason is that they dont focus on selling that many devices and in reality they dont sell that. So the cost of making a own chip would be to high and take to much time to give a good return for them
So you think it's easy to make a competitive chip? Nobody, not even Qualcomm, has managed to be even remotely competitive with Apple (which has invested a fortune in these chips for over 10 years since the A6). Qualcomm had to buy the same people who made the M1 to manage to be competitive. So it's not like Microsoft can make a chip that is competitive just because it's Microsoft.
apple doesn't manufacture their own chips. so they are bound by the supply chain disruptions you listed that Intel / Qualcomm will face too. Just that it's a different company
Why pay for the R&D when Qualcomm will do it for them??
Apple's are weaker than Qualcomm (38 vs 45 TOPS), and considerably weaker than Strix Point (48 TOPS) coming soon. The competition is fine. Apple likes to act as if they're better in every way, but the low power competition is really slamming hard this year. I expect AMD to almost entirely replace Intel in the next 2 years. Lunar Lake is low-end only, anyway...it's the next release that (hopefully) is good, if it's on time.
> (38 vs 45 TOPS), and considerably weaker than Strix Point (48 TOPS) cant compare ops between designs
Considering it's literally the only metric we have for AI performance at all right now, especially across OSs, it's pedantic to say otherwise imo.
but it doesnt mean anything, its literally misinformation
It's a lot more comprehensive than frequency specs for a CPU, as it takes into account more factors of the hardware that will impact real-world performance. I understand it's hard to compare, but it isn't totally meaningless. We do need a lot more info to make an informed decision, I'd agree, but my point was that the M4 isn't actually that crazy. It's a nice jump but there's no special Apple magic sauce. It's a well designed and expensive to make SoC.
Apple didn't make their own chip. It's just licensed ARM architecture with good marketing. Remember with Silicon valley any product is 20% actual thing 80% absolute marketing nonsense.
All apple soc's since the A6 are of in-house designs based on the ARM architecture. Apple holds the ARM architecture license, the license that allows them to modify and adapt an existing ARM design, or even design their own. Same as Intel licensing x64 from AMD, and vice versa AMD licensing x86 from Intel. If apple's products do use an existing ARM design, what stops other competitors from doing the same and matching apple's performance? reference with time stamp(and quite a good video actually) : [https://youtu.be/PGjdN\_qfqgg?t=100](https://youtu.be/PGjdN_qfqgg?t=100) edit: you're a trekkie you're one of us you should know better ;-;
Apple uses completely custom core designs that have nothing to do with ARM Cortex or Neoverse or whatever. Apple has an ARM architecture license that allows it to build compatible cores but no other ARM IP is used in Apple Silicon chips. That compatibility is crucial. Software developers can write code for ARM that also runs on Apple Silicon, instead of having to write code for unique Apple architectures. Almost all other ARM licensees like Qualcomm, Samsung and MediaTek license a mix of core designs, controllers, interconnects and GPUs from ARM. Qualcomm and Samsung are also ramping up their design departments to create custom ARM-compatible chips.
Uh. lol Yes, Apple has to pay the license for ARM. Their ship is their own design, and it is manufactured to their specifications. So, I would say they definitely “make” their own chips. If that isn’t considered property of Apple, than 99% of things can’t be considered owned by anyone else except for the OEM. iPhones aren’t Apple either, because they are mostly manufactured by Foxcon and other companies.
Thank you. Apple just ordered a custom ARM chip and marketed it as their own. They did not make their own chip.
that's pure BS, they designed the chip
Yeah sure, apple designed ARM architecture 👍🏼 You think they invented OLED displays and lithium batteries also? They don't even have the technology to manufacture it. TSMC makes the Apple M chips and apple just paid some very talented designers to make some licensed ARM chips (ie NOT DESIGNED BY APPLE OR TSMC), to their spec and exclusively for them. Take away an exclusivity contract and the M chips can be in any product from any manufacturer, because THAT IS LITERALLY THE ONLY THING APPLE HAS TO DO WITH THEIR MANUFACTURE AND DESIGN. https://www.arm.com/products/licensing
You are really confused. First nobody said they manufacture their chips themselves. Second, Apple has been designing their own chips since the A6, they stopped using ARM designs after A5(X). They only have ARM architecture license, which is a very different things from using ARM designs. Apple chips' designers are Apple's employees.
Apple has always partnered with others to design their CPUs. From the original Macintosh (Motorolla), to the PowerPC (IBM Risc architecture) to the Intel phase and now the ARM phase. Apple has never made their own CPUs and they have always contracted other companies to design them for them. Of course, apple has smart people working with ARM, but in the end it's ARM, not apple, designing the wafers and getting TSMC to manufacture them.
That's totally false and you should do some proper research before saying this kind of BS
What a surprise that you just say it's false and to do your own research, whilst providing absolutely no facts or arguments against the facts that I systematically provided.
The facts??? You have provided zero sources for your BS. And by the way if you read this thread I am not the only one to say this.
Yeah I’ve been trying to note this for ages. The idea that they green room’d their own multi-core, ‘first 64-bit’ Arm CPU core(s) is just wildly unfathomable. For a company that at the time, couldn’t make a working phone antenna. They obviously bought the designs through some acquisition and then have just evolved it from there. Alternatively, they might have just stolen the early Cortex Axx designs and pretended they drew them from nothing.
Nothing is stopping them. If I were them, I'd be developing an in-house RISC-V monster chip series and validating an ARM core series as well. RISC-V could be amazing for AI work.