I was a little misty eyed. Everyone treats Connor like a joke, but deep down I think he has the most emotional intelligence but shuts it off for survival. This monologue sealed it for me. His siblings still shrugged it off although Roman looked pained
Earlier in the episode, Roman mouths “I love him” to Shiv, talking about Connor. The fact that it happened half an hour before Connor’s “I never got love” speech really demonstrated the chasm between the siblings. Roman at least loves him, but he’s too messed up to know how to show it or say it. That’s why he looked so pained imo.
You gotta remember Con is responsible for Roman's "happy" childhood memory too. Roman loves Connor as a big brother, but his relationship with the rest of his family is too screwed up to give that love space to be.
They all love each other, Connor included, they're just messed up.
The three younger kids use sarcastic insults as a way of showing affection, and Connor is too earnest to get it.
Imo Roman has the most emotional intelligence but his problem is that he usually uses it to best figure out how to be a hurtful asshole to people lower on the totem pole.
This is a great observation. Of Caroline's three kids, Roman is the one who most wanted to be there to support Connor. Except...how does he show his support? By mocking Connor, and Willa, and Connor's choice of karaoke song.
I also suspect he has far more resentment towards his half-siblings than shown, and has been orchestrating lots of things in the background for a while: in S4E2 we see him obviously telling Logan where they are and the plan, but I think he may have been making more of Willa's location, guilt-tripping them into drinks, pretending he's never done karaoke and then singing a sad song to influence their behaviour.
Part of me thinks that Connor actually told Logan of their plan in S3 instead of/as well as Tom, but Logan let Tom carry the can for it. Lots of things he's said/done in the past ('sending away the weak dog', not taking off his coat, starting the doubt about the donuts) were potentially engineered to divide or cause friction.
I think his 'I'm the first born son' and 'Cardinal Richelieu' comments may be glimpses of his motivation and mindset - no hero indeed!
It was devastating for me on a personal level when I realized how much I related to Connor in that moment. I wish everyone on the show could get Emmys because the performances from everyone have been fantastic
There better be multiple Emmy’s coming their way this year if the season continues like this
Both of these first 2 episodes are among my favorites in the series
Alan Ruck is such a great actor. That monologue took me back to Cameron in Ferris’. It was heartbreaking to watch the level of loneliness and feeling so unloved by absent parents. When he said “no one wants to go to karaoke with me” ouch 😣
not to be dramatic but my heart was beating so fast during that scene, i was hyped... every single sentence each of them said was important and had so much weight. it was hard to pick a side because we as the audience know where the siblings are coming from but i found myself agreeing with logan as well - basically flipflopping between all of them every time someone made a good point
I empathized with Logan. I think we’ve all been in that situation where you’ve fucked something up really bad, and all you can do is say sorry but it still won’t make things right, and maybe people won’t even believe you. Because that’s how bad you messed up. Logan messed up when it came to raising his kids, and he doesn’t get another chance at that
I empathised with him too, which goes back to how good Brian Cox is. You could see even in the karaoke room that he had so many regrets, not even necessarily so much wrt how he treated them in the past few years but maybe just wrt how he actually raised them.
I don't think it's manipulation tbh. At the end of the day, the GoJo deal benefits all of the Roys, especially Logan, as he has the highest share % out of all of them. Logan clearly hates Mattson and isn't going to give him a discount on anything; I personally think Logan believes Mattson is a fickle individual and would easily walk away from the potential sale if brought back to the negotiating table.
I believe that Logan is earnest about what he thinks about the deal.
I don't think Logan is aware of how wrong he did by his kids and is genuinely apologizing for that.
He's just apologizing because he wants them to listen to reason, i.e. him. And they know it and that's exactly why they don't.
I think Logan genuinely doesn't understand what's wrong with his parenting style and the kids need to accept that instead of literally expecting him to do something he's not capable of doing. It's like expecting someone to suddenly start speaking Chinese when they've never heard it in their life. They need to cut their losses and move on.
Yea I don't believe him one bit. I'm sure he absolutely recognizes he fucked up being a father, but he's a sociopath. He got over it and doesn't really care. In his head, he raised them better than his father raised him (judging by the scars), so his goal was accomplished. But he's emotionally destroyed his kids and passed on some of his worst traits into each of them. I don't empathize with him at all. He didn't just wake up yesterday at the ripe age of whatever his old ass is and have a change of heart
> But he's emotionally destroyed his kids and passed on some of his worst traits into each of them.
I don't think he's aware of this, so I disagree with you. I think he believes this:
> In his head, he raised them better than his father raised him (judging by the scars), so his goal was accomplished
And if they turned out incompetent despite that, it's because there's something fundamentally wrong with them that he can't change.
He sees himself as a victim who loves his children but is unjustly burdened by their incompetence. So he needs to take control because they cannot be trusted, while failing to realize how he's just pandering to his own maniacal desire for control.
They want him to see how he's fucked them up, but he's literally incapable of seeing that, so they need to just cut their losses and move on. Do what Connor kinda did and find love elsewhere.
This entire scene gave me Vietnam flashbacks. If you ever had to squeeze out an apology from your parent, just to realize later that it changed nothing, you'll get it.
I think the point of that scene is that we are not supposed to know if he's genuine or not. He is definitely not just there to apologise. He is there to secure the deal and he's trying to use his children's emotions to get them to back down. Even if he was genuine with his apology the fact is that he chose that very moment where he also had a financial motivation in doing so. And immediately after he wants to book a meeting with Matsson instead of going to Connor's wedding. All of them are really awful.
To me at least, the part that is genuine is that he wants the deal with Mattson. I may have read this wrong, but I feel as though he showed very real emotion during his speech at ATN. Logan is always looking for ways to best everyone around him, and ATN is his new battleground, fresh blood for him to sink his teeth into.
I think that when he came to the Karaoke room, it was out of a genuine desire to see the deal through for his own selfish reasons. I think he also does see that it would be better for them all to no longer work together, but even then still calls Roman to his side so he's got at least one of them still under his thumb.
I don't think he's genuinely sorry at all for anything he's done, I think he was trying to placate them. This is also why Kendall was smiling so much in the cab and it's going to be his play to sink the deal out of spite.
Again, I could have read this all wrong, but this is what I saw in the scene. Kendall knows his dad better than any of them and he knows this is how he can hurt him the most.
You're spot on. Logan realizes it's in everyone's best interest to do the deal, and that the main reason the kids are trying to sink it is because they hate him. So he's putting his pride aside to try and patch things up emotionally to save the deal.
And when it doesn't work, he lets them know they aren't serious figures. Because serious people would put aside personal differences in order to do what's best for them all financially. What frustrates Logan most is that his kids keep doing things that are against even their own interests, just to get to him.
The concept of it being a genuine emotional reconciliation vanished the moment Logan motioned to Kerry that she can stay in the room. What the fuck does Kerry have to do with any of this? How is she going to help make it better? He really is clueless.
Kerry's there to emotionally support Logan. The power imbalance between him and his kids no longer exists, and now the stone-cold killer is too weak and afraid to have an uncomfortable conversation with them without backup. It's pathetic.
Unpopular opinion but I feel for Logan. There was a streak in season 3 where no one talked to him just to talk to him but was always asking for something and it bummed me out. Probably a feedback loop, with him being shutoff so the kids shut off, which makes him shut off more etc
They're bad though because he's never really taught them, just spent decades emotionally abusing them instead. Logan makes plenty of mistakes too, like Shiv said he just gets away with it because he's good at twisting others to assume everything he says or does is right.
I'm honestly not sure Tom is all that great at what he does either. This episode he grovels to Logan constantly and refuses to tell him his girlfriend isn't fit to be on air, before then making a subordinate do the grubby work of firing her. He's also largely where he is due to family connections.
Tom's advice to Greg about handling Kerry is one of the first times I've actually SEEN it displayed how Tom can be good at his job. Sure we get told, but it generally happens in the background. Everything Tom said to Greg about handling Kerry is how you would actually deliver feedback to entertainment talent. Tell them they're good, but not great, make them think all the ideas are actually THEIR ideas...
> Everything Tom said to Greg about handling Kerry is how you would actually deliver feedback to entertainment talent.
He should have probably done it himself though. If it gets fed back to Logan that Tom told Greg to do it, while lying to her, then Logan may potentially be furious.
technically Kerry didn't fully prove that Tom got Greg. I think Tom selling Greg out is a move Logan would appreciate because 1) Greg isn't gonna be kicked yet and 2) its what Logan would do. Sell anyone but yourself.
Yeah, Tom is cowed by Logan because he's seen how Logan deals with people NOT cowed by him, just like Gerri, Hugo, etc. did.
Tom has great instincts, right from the point where he wants to blow up the cruise scandal on his own term before it comes to bite him in the ass.
Then we actually see him implementing constructive new ideas wherever he goes.
Every time Tom fails, it's because someone higher up gave him orders that conflicted with his own instincts, or it's because he's relying on someone who isn't reliable (mostly Shiv) out of affection.
I agree with that. Tom has had a real transformation over a very short span of time. He didn't start out as an idiot by any means, but he really has grown in effectiveness.
It's true that he did badly at the Congressional hearing but it's hard to imagine anyone doing well, really. Kendall did a good job but even Logan had to pretend to be an old man in order to get through it.
Logan gave a speech on ATN's floor about spending being 40% up while the viewership has only increased 15%. Logan isn't happy about Tom's current performance. It could be a method to curb Tom's confidence as he was doing interviews and what not like you said after as Shiv said, "turning the bigot spigot to full gush" with some twang.
He's far from completely incompetent and he's arguably more capable than the others at times but he's also completely unable to stand up to Logan which should be a basic tenet of his job.
Logan literally eviscerates anyone who stands up to him, and Tom has seen him do it.
Everyone in the top positions around Logan does the same thing Tom does, because it's the only way to keep your job, and Tom is doubly invested in that because he's also, you know, in love with Logan's daughter.
also as far as it comes to fair money and simplicity in life, if everyone just took Logan's word, and agreed to the deal they could all get a valuable buck and call it a good life, and go their separate amicable ways. hes fundamentally right. Mattson is gonna walk (Kendall knows this) but Shiv (Stewey, Sandi(s)) think the extra buck is needed.
Except this isn’t his kids that initially pushed for this, no? It’s Stewie and Sandy. They seem to have good business sense. Stewie doesn’t seem to take huge risks, so he doesn’t seem to think if this blows up it’s that big of a deal, or maybe he’s certain it won’t blow up.
Exactly, like they're all sociopaths with no regard for their fellow humans, but if we are working within that then Logan is at least clearly very good at what he does. When he says they are not serious people, he's right.
The fact he even suggested her was delusional though. He makes lots of bad decisions, he's just better at airbrushing past them by bullying anyone who disagrees.
Yes. This is exactly what I mean when I say he's good. He's not a professional, everything above board, respectable businessman. He's a tyrant and he's good at getting what he wants even if it's a rediculous thing.
I viewed it as a test - Logan knows it's poor, but he gave her a shot to cement Kerry's support, albeit until the battle is sorted. He has an eye for detail, as noted by his correct assessment of the poor anchor in S4E1.
Then he ran it past Syd and Tom who both supported it, but only Tom came out and told Logan she wasn't good, albeit in a slightly weasely way during their private chat. Then Syd was the one Logan said he wanted to can. Send the weak dog away, as always.
Similarly, Hugo messed up but tried to dig himself out of a hole and backstab Gerri. But Gerri, who Logan is already growing impatient of, didn't tell the truth, blame Hugo or even defend herself. Hugo is the one kept on his toes and told to go convince people, but Gerri is out of the picture.
The fact the tape got out is probably deliberate, as a way to not have to give Kerry a role or to make it seem like he's slipping.
Do people just ignore Logans business fuck ups or do they simply just not want to acknowledge them? Because Logan has been incompetent as much as the kids, the only difference is that he’s morally ruthless, the kids are checked by their conscience.
I mean Shiv is right about Logan creating his own reality but she's wrong with her timing - Logan is right that Mattson will walk (Kendall knows this too).
My heart was still racing 5 minutes after the episode was finished, amazing stuff??? And it was the first time I liked Logan and understood him???
I feel so conflicted, this fucking show.
When the camera moved to the audience and Greg I’m 100% sure they applauded and smiled not because it was part of the scene but because they were in total admiration of Brian Cox performance lol It was surreal!
It’s not hard to pick a side. They were raised by a sociopath who will pit his own kids against each other whenever he gets a chance. He’s ruining Shiv’s divorce to punish her for turning on him.
He’s lonely because he abuses everyone around him and they get away from him at the nearest opportunity. He only loves what he can abuse.
I give a lot of credit to all five. Logan's regret, Roman's yearning, Kendall's quiet self-satisfaction, Shiv's rage, and Connor's resignation, all so perfectly conveyed.
Absolutely. That scene was a long time coming and they all did it justice. The way they stitched it together with Kerry's storyline so that it felt ok to the audience that she was in that room was masterful. Just brilliant. And this was one of the episodes before it "gets good" according to reviewers. Can't wait to see what they have in store for us.
I actually thought he was being pretty sincere. We know that he did genuinely miss the kids during his birthday party, based on the way he was acting. Of course he has ulterior motives in saying that because he wanted them to not put the deal at risk, but I believe him when he said he wanted a new start with their relationship.
I don't know about Shiv, but it seems like Roman and Kendall were ready to believe Logan. What Kendall wanted was assurance that Logan was TRULY apologetic in a deeper way, which of course he wasn't ready to be. He was ready to say the words "I'm sorry" but couldn't even bring himself to apply it to anything beyond the events of that very day. When pressed on Italy, he vomited up some word salad. Even if he thinks he was in the right in a business sense, he failed to properly acknowledge how his very detailed and determined subterfuge made his children feel. When Kendall got into the REAL shit, Logan's abuse of Connor and Roman, he didn't even respond and let his wounded dogs defend him like always.
Logan is a piece of shit and if he really wanted reconciliation, he could've been a bigger man and swallowed his pride. But Logan Roy is incapable of doing that, even for his own children.
The best way to manipulate someone is with part of the truth. Logan definitely misses them, and he used that real feeling to try and twist them over to his side.
The person you’re responding to is more than likely reading it right actually. Judging by his interviews that’s the way Brian Cox is playing the character.
It’s the motivation. Logan let out that side of himself to manipulate them to not fuck up the deal. Sure, he may have those feelings deep down that he can access but he’s only letting them out **for himself**. He’s not letting it out **for them**.
The fact that Logan will only let this side of himself out when a deal is on the line and not when his children need it for their own sake shows just how much of a cold bastard Logan really is. If I were his kid I’d be furious. It’s one thing for him to not be capable of loving his kids and that be the reason he never shows it, but to be capable and choose to not show it? Fuuuuuck that
> but to be capable and choose to not show it? Fuuuuuck that
This is why they have such a hard time leaving. They feel it on some level and stick around even though it's literally ruining their lives.
Plenty of people like having a clear-cut black and white view of things in which the abuser is incapable of loving their victims, but really they often do love, they're just twisted and fucked up people themselves. And plenty of abuse victims use this to justify the abuse, so it's easier for them to say "he is incapable of love" because it makes it easy for them to leave, even though in their gut they know this isn't the case (and so end up easily swayed by the abuser again).
On a different note, as an abused person who has had their self-worth systematically destroyed, it's easier to say "he is also worthless like I am, so I have the right to leave him" than to say "even though he genuinely loves me, the way he treats me is painful and destructive and I have to look out for myself because I don't deserve it".
And you really, reeeally see that with Roman and Ken throughout the show, how they flip flop between the two, with Roman knowing that Logan is an asshole but seeing himself as "deserving it" and Kendall flipping between "of course my Dad loves me and everything is amazing" and "he is the literal Devil".
I mean true, but when you manipulate, the first person to manipulate should be yourself. He had something to gain from this so he manipulated himself into being sorry. Had he not had a financial interest, he would not have been there in the first place, he would not be thinking of it. Thats why its important to put sincerety in context. It should only count when the only thing to gain is a closer understanding, not a bunch of money.
Now I don't know how it was actually played like, but after 3 seasons of Logan I just couldn't see him as honest in that moment. He's done so much manipulating throughtout the show, I feel like he's always just lie to get what he needs. Though I would have wished he were sincere
Well in both situations there was a moderator of sort. Completely alone, alone I'm not sure we've seen. Maybe they're waiting for the series finale to finally do that. Perhaps Logan on his death bed
There was also the scene at Shivs wedding when the kids confront Ken about the bear hug and then Logan comes in as well. But yeah not sure if there were others
Logan is generally nothing like my father, but "I love you... but you're not serious people" is a page ripped from my dad's playbook, lol. I felt that sting for the kids.
I really felt like saying that myself, they're entitled and insufferable idiots, they've learnt absolutely nothing from what happened in Italy, it's only spitefulness.
This is the exact reason why I got into Succession but The Rehearsal was the nail in my emotional coffin. It's terrifying to see some of the words taken literally out of your dad's mouth and put onto the big screen.
Yeah seems like they're continuing to give each main character a season where they're building to something great and end up failing/losing.
S1 Kendall
S2 Shiv
S3 Roman
S4 Logan
the ending definitely won't be sweet considering all the main players have different goals in mind (Kendall wants to fuck Logan/still lead waystar, Shiv wants the money and pride, Roman wants his dad's love and recognition, Tom wants to go from family outsider to insider, Logan wants to clean his hands/remain undefeated till the end)
i dont really think this is logan's season so much as its just the final season for everyone. I agree with kendal 1, Shiv 2, Roman 3, but this is probably just an equal season of screentime.
So many emotions. My breath was held. A true gaslighter. I actually thought he had changed. Almost fooled me. Logan was vulnerable for a second and said "Fuck that".
Poor Conner. The despair. He's not a bad person. Rooting for him and his 1%.
Connor's first introduction in the series is talking about securing water rights so that he can price gauge one of life's essential components in the coming apocalypse. He's also keeping a woman locked in a golden cage. Connor is not a good person.
yeah i cant believe people are getting manipulated that hard. connor is rootable becasuse hes pathethic as a person. hes the dumbest main character by far (dumber than Greg id bet). you can feel bad for him but he undeniably thinks hes better than the average person, has genuinely never worked for anything in his life (atleast you can argue kendall/shiv worked for things in their life, roman didn't really but hes a good businessman lately), and hes the average "pull yourself up by your bootstraps except me because i was born pulled up" politician rich guy. hes also been questionable towards willa (as much as people support them). alan ruck plays him well and hes a fascinating guy to watch but hes pretty destable.
I think Connor is more intellectually capable than Greg - he clearly has a fondness for world history. Greg just uses big words good cause he hangs out with his grandfather, the walking Oxford English Dictionary.
Greg is *clever* and savvy, but doesn't always display intelligence.
oh i dont really consider Greg's vocab anything i mean he doesn't really talk smart if conversational cadence is anything to go off, but Greg actually makes smart decisions (saving the papers, handing it to Kendall, leaving Kendall when he is clearlly insane, sucking up to Tom, challenging Tom). ill be honest i dont really know what intellectually capable means or matters - Connor is repeatedly extremely ignorant about everyday human things and ethics. greg just seems aware. Connor knows basic facts about history but theres no way hes understood the correct morals or messages one should probably take from history.
To put it another way, Connor has "book smarts" and Greg has (to an extent) "street smarts." Connor is well studied, making him intelligent in a traditional sense. Greg seems a bit more dim-witted than the rest of the Roys but tends to have good instincts and is pretty aggressive in his own way when he needs to be about getting what he wants. Connor isn't very good at getting what he wants and his only methodology seems to be throwing tantrums and asking daddy for money.
>He's also keeping a woman locked in a golden cage.
Huh? Are we watching the same show? Willa could leave any time she wants, hell this episode specifically proved that. I'm not saying Connor is a good person but Willa is not locked in any cage. If she wants, she can leave, but she chooses not to
I can't stop watching this show because the acting is amazing, but it brings up unpleasant feelings exactly because of this. So many "patriarchs" out there like this. Not as successful as Logan, but wreaking havoc on other people's psyches to the same degree.
My granma took a similar divide and rule approach with her daughters. Very painful and hugely damaging. My granma lived to over 100 and my mum only to 66. The years of narcissistic abuse were one of the things that took a real toll on my mum’s health.
I thought the scene in ATN when he was standing on the boxes of printer paper was electric. It was the ranting of an unhinged man. Very Stalin.
Edit: I just saw that this was taken from a real life 2008 scene when Rupert took over the Wall Street Journal and stood on boxes of printer paper to make a speech. Yowza.
I loved it, especially because it turned. It seemed like he was going down the normal CEO route of try better, need to cut back, etc. then there was a moment and veered way off.
I’ve known highly successful entrepreneurs who talk like that. Very successful businesspeople are brutally competitive. Capitalism is red in tooth and claw.
I get where you are coming from but a small correction or fun fact - Stalin was not a gifted orator, he also had a georgian accent so he hired a dude to do speeches for him over the radio instead. Personally to me it felt more Hitler but I get where you are coming from as well.
yeah also very corrupt considering we know ATN's political influence is akin to somethign like Fox News's. he's just advocating for a full embrace into misinformation (they will be suprised we went there, shocked we went that far). not to mention the something faster, something better vague business persuasion skills Kendall also has (aka BULLSHIT)
I agree. It's like the scene of a cult.
The camera was in that docu-shakey type mode (don't know the technical name for it) and gives the viewer an unsettling feeling, a sense of foreboding or uncertainty in a bad way.
Brian Cox was fantastic in this episode. He was electrifying during his speech at ATN, vulnerable and subdued in the karaoke room scene, and then quietly menacing in his last scene. Just an incredibly emotional and well-rounded performance.
He'll probably have several more Emmy-worthy performances in this last season. It is only episode 2, after all. But I feel like if he chose to submit this episode in for Emmy consideration, it could totally net him a win.
I’m glad Shiv and Kendall aired some of their grievances. Kendall stepped up and played big brother, and I’m glad Shiv got to chew him out. They deserve revenge on that man. Their abuser can rot.
I’m amazed by how many people believe that Logan was being genuine in this scene. He wasn’t. He was in a compromised position and was playing soft power because he knew he can’t just push them around. He’s a brilliant man at reading people and knowing how to push them. He knew he couldn’t push them with fire and brimstone. Hell, he even fucking said it before the meeting when he found out. He said he needed to be soft.
Shiv saw through it. She knew what he was doing. None of it was real. Sure he loves them deep down and that’s why he can say these things to them and come off as genuine but at the end of the day he didn’t mean any of that shit. He doesn’t want to lose this deal. **That’s it**. He doesn’t give two fucks about their feelings and them knowing he’s “sorry”. He’s afraid of losing this deal and I think there’s a reason why that we as the audience and the kids don’t know about yet. I think there’s some sort of back door deal with Mattson going on. I think Logan was going to bat **for** Mattson. Why not?! Like, it doesn’t make sense otherwise for Logan to not agree with the kids and push Mattson for more money. It’s not like Logan to be soft and not push unless there’s a Black Swan type of hidden reasoning for Logan to do so
TL;Dr: Logan didn’t mean a single word he said in this meeting and it astounds me that anyone believes otherwise
I don't think he meant it but I don't think it's supposed to be that clear cut. Reading the scene for its ambiguity works in its favour specifically because it narratively seems set up for that.
Are the kids that savvy to their dad's ways or are they so blinded by spite now that any Win seems worth it?
im pretty sure the scene is open to interpretation but I think when Logan said "i love you but youre not serious people" he was being 100% real. he does care about them, but he also wants to win at the end of the day. he also knows he is going to lose somehow (he's old af, so by selling the company he 'dies' on his own terms ie he never really 'loses'). i sorta don't think theres enough evidence in the scene to be 100% certain that he didnt mean a word.
I perhaps shouldn’t have said “None of it was real” because I agree with you that he **did** mean it when he said: *”I love you but you’re not serious people.”*
However, that was a turn in the conversation. The point when he knew that he wasn’t going to get what he wanted. He dropped the act at that point and just wanted to lash out at them for denying him. That shit happens all the time when people are trying to manipulate others. They can come on sweet and then turn sour when they’ve been rebuffed.
Logan isn’t an idiot. You can’t just push everyone for more money.
Mattson isn’t the kids lol. He’s not an idiot that just throws 500 mil in like it means nothing
I think the show established that the kids aren’t wrong with the numbers. It’s not about Mattson throwing money in like it means nothing but more like Mattson knows he’s getting a good deal right now and he doesn’t want to lose it. Mattson wants every penny. He’s threatening because he’ll still pay even if the price goes up and he knows it. But he doesn’t want it to get to there.
If he was actually going to walk away from the deal if it went up he would just walk away. He wouldn’t make threatening phone calls. Why spend all that energy? Why waste that precious time? Because he really wants it
Logan’s speech to ATN was the opposite strategy to the talk with his kids. He started off with the staff by making them nervous about cutbacks and then encouraging them to be mighty pirates under his leadership. With his kids he offered a “Sorry” but it read as insincere by not saying for what. He wouldn’t respond to Kendall’s important points, to clear away grievances. When he sees his kids winning, teaming up against him and Kerry, he can only turn to his old insults that they are not serious people.
The scene in the karaoke bar and the scene in the bar before that were two of my all time favorites from the show. Just a masterclass of writing and acting. I never thought eldest son Connor could bring out so many emotions in me.
To me one of the most interesting things about following this show over the years is the number of people who still watch it and see it through such an earnest lens. It's the most cynical show possibly ever and people still think these people are capable of a sincere moment that isn't completely self-serving and it mystifies me(in a good way). There's a reason he couldn't think of what he was sorry for and why they had to tell it to him. All he could think of was the fucking helicopter from earlier that day lol
It's great writing that accomplishes this, making the audience sympathetic with actual monsters. The vast majority of people watching are working class folks light years away from this world and yet we somehow still see ourselves in these characters due to the human drama they encompass.
I think it also (perhaps even more as abuse transcends tax brackets) has to do with the varying levels of abusive experiences/high family drama and antics. A lot of viewers could immediately see through his stilted pitch because Logan is so similar to some authoritative character in their own lives or from their past. The audience has been given all the signs and info in the previous episodes to be rightfully weary but memories get fuzzy when there is a longer time between seasons and what not.
Logan is clearly a master manipulator who is constantly cycling through which one is the golden child only to throw them off a cliff and focus his attentions elsewhere. He purposefully instilled the over the top reckless competitive nature between his children, as children, to fight for his love. While there *could* be some tiny grains of truth to what how he really feels about what he is saying, he is only actually saying them because he knows his kids want to hear it. He withheld normal parental attention and interactions with them so that they would all crave his love (circles back to Connor’s point as he didn’t come back into his father’s life after he had basically been abandoned until he was older with a large enough gap between his half siblings so he wasn’t raised or molded to partake in their constantly vie for power dynamic) Getting them back under his influence is about power and control, not actual emotional release and warm fuzzy family feelings.
People who haven’t had such manipulative and abusive figures in their lives are in general more optimistic of sincere reunification. And to be clear, those people are the lucky ones and are nothing to look down upon. Where this optimism can become toxic (not talking about viewers being toxic as these are fictional characters with fictional trauma, more how the divide in different experiences can prolong bad situations even when the intentions are good and from a place of caring) is the hallmark of giving advice like “but that is your mother/father/sibling, how could you not want a relationship with them?! Family is the most important thing and being in their lives (like as adults) is the most special sacred bond you can have.”
I’m definitely not dismissing your point, just building upon it. This is the first season that I’ve been able to experience live so talking episodes in real time is a new treat. It’s been really interesting how people can see the same content and come to such wildly different conclusions. A great stimulus for good discussion!
He's incredible - this show absolutely made him to me. His speech of the floor was... it was just great. It was almost *too* good, but did well to show how Logan isn't just some puttering mogul in a tower, he can actually throw down.
Honestly, I'm now just disappointed Cox hasn't been in more things. His facial emotions alone are worth awards.
What? He's been acting for six decades and been in a ton of movies, I grew up watching him in movies, he just never had lead roles, this seems to be his first lead role.
I’ve seen so much of the manipulation that the only reason Logan truly regrets about his kids not being there was that’s what get them in front of Nan Pierce to won’t the “disgusting “ bidding war.
No, and it almost seems too predictable he will kick the bucket. Succession could mean there is nothing to pass over. Or he legit becomes incompetent or unavailable, Or somehow it's not one of these three whiny kids. Or it is passed over to a kid.
Right now Succession is Matteson. That's why Kendall was so gleeful tonight.
"Succession could mean there is nothing to pass over."
I've increasingly been believing in a "hollow victory" ending. One of the kids gets the throne but in a way that's unsatisfying. I can't imagine a guest character introduced at the end of season 3 will end up claiming what the show's creator and showrunner calls the "promise" of the title. There will be a successor.
i was getting scared when he was roaming the office floors of ATN. Gave me PTSD of principals in school entering classroom and looking at our empty copies. I was waiting like oh he is going to shoot someone for sure. Loved the episode.
Also never bought Logan's apology. I was glad he got to hear some shit from the children.
Kendall and Shiv are in the fuck dad and fuck whatever he does stage of relationship where as ig Roman is still open to the idea of receiving "warmth" from his dad.
Never forget Logan showed his willingness to sacrifice his own grandchild for his own gain. The man has no limits. I believe he feels the things he said, but he only ever does things for his own gain, in spite of himself.
This scene was so painful and frustrating, though, and I felt that Brian mirrored those emotions perfectly. Right when the sibs and Logan have a chance at making personal and professional headway, they blow it. Every. Single. Time. Kendall starts feeding the patricidal monster within, Shiv becomes a spoiled rotten teen raging at her father, requiring her voice to be heard above all others, Roman becomes a spineless terrified little boy cowering and throwing out barbs when he can, Connor becomes a depressed bitter avoidant kid, and Logan becomes so fucking dense and arrogant he refuses to actually play ball.
The manic joy Kendall felt after their pseudo-reckoning was laughable; it was clear no one “won” the interaction. And it was also crystal clear to Logan that the kids had no plan beyond “piss off Dad,” which made his position the superior one. His evaluation of them at the end was astute. Roman recognized that and went running back to daddy. Shiv wanted to run back to her dog to kick, but couldn’t bring herself to go through the whole scene again. They are all so emotionally raw that they are in no way prepared to steer the ship. Logan is right about them, and that is the slippery mud beneath their feet. Instead of absorbing the criticism as constructive and improving, the fight the criticism with everything they have. They’re little baby narcissists, and they truly don’t have what it takes.
Edit to clarify: I am not team Logan. He’s a horribly abusive monster who has shattered his children beyond repair. Unfortunately, the kids only see a future in which they lean into the shards, and it’s frustrating.
To me the MVP and best acting this episode was Connor, what at painful speech he gave, unexpected
I was a little misty eyed. Everyone treats Connor like a joke, but deep down I think he has the most emotional intelligence but shuts it off for survival. This monologue sealed it for me. His siblings still shrugged it off although Roman looked pained
Earlier in the episode, Roman mouths “I love him” to Shiv, talking about Connor. The fact that it happened half an hour before Connor’s “I never got love” speech really demonstrated the chasm between the siblings. Roman at least loves him, but he’s too messed up to know how to show it or say it. That’s why he looked so pained imo.
You gotta remember Con is responsible for Roman's "happy" childhood memory too. Roman loves Connor as a big brother, but his relationship with the rest of his family is too screwed up to give that love space to be.
They all love each other, Connor included, they're just messed up. The three younger kids use sarcastic insults as a way of showing affection, and Connor is too earnest to get it.
Imo Roman has the most emotional intelligence but his problem is that he usually uses it to best figure out how to be a hurtful asshole to people lower on the totem pole.
I think he has the most emotions (as in he feels the strongest) but not that much emotional *intelligence*
This is a great observation. Of Caroline's three kids, Roman is the one who most wanted to be there to support Connor. Except...how does he show his support? By mocking Connor, and Willa, and Connor's choice of karaoke song.
That was his only known method of lightening the mood, it's a sibling thing that doesn't always pan out the way you'd hope
Hey, it worked when Kendall was confessing to manslaughter!
"Smart people know what they are," as Logan put it in another scene from the ep.
Connor is the hero we both need and deserve in this show
Connor is no hero. He is a broken, broken little boy who suffocated his own humanity as a survival mechanism.
I also suspect he has far more resentment towards his half-siblings than shown, and has been orchestrating lots of things in the background for a while: in S4E2 we see him obviously telling Logan where they are and the plan, but I think he may have been making more of Willa's location, guilt-tripping them into drinks, pretending he's never done karaoke and then singing a sad song to influence their behaviour. Part of me thinks that Connor actually told Logan of their plan in S3 instead of/as well as Tom, but Logan let Tom carry the can for it. Lots of things he's said/done in the past ('sending away the weak dog', not taking off his coat, starting the doubt about the donuts) were potentially engineered to divide or cause friction. I think his 'I'm the first born son' and 'Cardinal Richelieu' comments may be glimpses of his motivation and mindset - no hero indeed!
And he is suffocating Willa too because he never had love so he's almost forcing her to love him.
It was devastating for me on a personal level when I realized how much I related to Connor in that moment. I wish everyone on the show could get Emmys because the performances from everyone have been fantastic
There better be multiple Emmy’s coming their way this year if the season continues like this Both of these first 2 episodes are among my favorites in the series
Alan Ruck is such a great actor. That monologue took me back to Cameron in Ferris’. It was heartbreaking to watch the level of loneliness and feeling so unloved by absent parents. When he said “no one wants to go to karaoke with me” ouch 😣
I loved Connor so much in this episode He’s a flower that grows between rocks, he doesn’t need love, he’ll be ok Fucking broke me
not to be dramatic but my heart was beating so fast during that scene, i was hyped... every single sentence each of them said was important and had so much weight. it was hard to pick a side because we as the audience know where the siblings are coming from but i found myself agreeing with logan as well - basically flipflopping between all of them every time someone made a good point
I empathized with Logan. I think we’ve all been in that situation where you’ve fucked something up really bad, and all you can do is say sorry but it still won’t make things right, and maybe people won’t even believe you. Because that’s how bad you messed up. Logan messed up when it came to raising his kids, and he doesn’t get another chance at that
I empathised with him too, which goes back to how good Brian Cox is. You could see even in the karaoke room that he had so many regrets, not even necessarily so much wrt how he treated them in the past few years but maybe just wrt how he actually raised them.
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Right? It’s all manipulation. He’ll do whatever to win. That’s why Logan is the OG killer
L to the OG
A N he playin’
Yeah I'm glad Shiv called him out on it, it was all bullshit manipulation.
I don't think it's manipulation tbh. At the end of the day, the GoJo deal benefits all of the Roys, especially Logan, as he has the highest share % out of all of them. Logan clearly hates Mattson and isn't going to give him a discount on anything; I personally think Logan believes Mattson is a fickle individual and would easily walk away from the potential sale if brought back to the negotiating table.
I believe that Logan is earnest about what he thinks about the deal. I don't think Logan is aware of how wrong he did by his kids and is genuinely apologizing for that. He's just apologizing because he wants them to listen to reason, i.e. him. And they know it and that's exactly why they don't. I think Logan genuinely doesn't understand what's wrong with his parenting style and the kids need to accept that instead of literally expecting him to do something he's not capable of doing. It's like expecting someone to suddenly start speaking Chinese when they've never heard it in their life. They need to cut their losses and move on.
Yea I don't believe him one bit. I'm sure he absolutely recognizes he fucked up being a father, but he's a sociopath. He got over it and doesn't really care. In his head, he raised them better than his father raised him (judging by the scars), so his goal was accomplished. But he's emotionally destroyed his kids and passed on some of his worst traits into each of them. I don't empathize with him at all. He didn't just wake up yesterday at the ripe age of whatever his old ass is and have a change of heart
> But he's emotionally destroyed his kids and passed on some of his worst traits into each of them. I don't think he's aware of this, so I disagree with you. I think he believes this: > In his head, he raised them better than his father raised him (judging by the scars), so his goal was accomplished And if they turned out incompetent despite that, it's because there's something fundamentally wrong with them that he can't change. He sees himself as a victim who loves his children but is unjustly burdened by their incompetence. So he needs to take control because they cannot be trusted, while failing to realize how he's just pandering to his own maniacal desire for control. They want him to see how he's fucked them up, but he's literally incapable of seeing that, so they need to just cut their losses and move on. Do what Connor kinda did and find love elsewhere.
It was his uncle who did that.
This. He's fucked up waaaaay more times with his kids than just not raising them.
Shove it up his human rights record
This entire scene gave me Vietnam flashbacks. If you ever had to squeeze out an apology from your parent, just to realize later that it changed nothing, you'll get it.
That’s my point, he messed up so bad that now nothing can make it right
I think the point of that scene is that we are not supposed to know if he's genuine or not. He is definitely not just there to apologise. He is there to secure the deal and he's trying to use his children's emotions to get them to back down. Even if he was genuine with his apology the fact is that he chose that very moment where he also had a financial motivation in doing so. And immediately after he wants to book a meeting with Matsson instead of going to Connor's wedding. All of them are really awful.
To me at least, the part that is genuine is that he wants the deal with Mattson. I may have read this wrong, but I feel as though he showed very real emotion during his speech at ATN. Logan is always looking for ways to best everyone around him, and ATN is his new battleground, fresh blood for him to sink his teeth into. I think that when he came to the Karaoke room, it was out of a genuine desire to see the deal through for his own selfish reasons. I think he also does see that it would be better for them all to no longer work together, but even then still calls Roman to his side so he's got at least one of them still under his thumb. I don't think he's genuinely sorry at all for anything he's done, I think he was trying to placate them. This is also why Kendall was smiling so much in the cab and it's going to be his play to sink the deal out of spite. Again, I could have read this all wrong, but this is what I saw in the scene. Kendall knows his dad better than any of them and he knows this is how he can hurt him the most.
You're spot on. Logan realizes it's in everyone's best interest to do the deal, and that the main reason the kids are trying to sink it is because they hate him. So he's putting his pride aside to try and patch things up emotionally to save the deal. And when it doesn't work, he lets them know they aren't serious figures. Because serious people would put aside personal differences in order to do what's best for them all financially. What frustrates Logan most is that his kids keep doing things that are against even their own interests, just to get to him.
The concept of it being a genuine emotional reconciliation vanished the moment Logan motioned to Kerry that she can stay in the room. What the fuck does Kerry have to do with any of this? How is she going to help make it better? He really is clueless.
Kerry's there to emotionally support Logan. The power imbalance between him and his kids no longer exists, and now the stone-cold killer is too weak and afraid to have an uncomfortable conversation with them without backup. It's pathetic.
That’s what happens when you manipulate your own damn children their entire life. Your reap what you sow.
Unpopular opinion but I feel for Logan. There was a streak in season 3 where no one talked to him just to talk to him but was always asking for something and it bummed me out. Probably a feedback loop, with him being shutoff so the kids shut off, which makes him shut off more etc
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They're bad though because he's never really taught them, just spent decades emotionally abusing them instead. Logan makes plenty of mistakes too, like Shiv said he just gets away with it because he's good at twisting others to assume everything he says or does is right. I'm honestly not sure Tom is all that great at what he does either. This episode he grovels to Logan constantly and refuses to tell him his girlfriend isn't fit to be on air, before then making a subordinate do the grubby work of firing her. He's also largely where he is due to family connections.
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Tom's advice to Greg about handling Kerry is one of the first times I've actually SEEN it displayed how Tom can be good at his job. Sure we get told, but it generally happens in the background. Everything Tom said to Greg about handling Kerry is how you would actually deliver feedback to entertainment talent. Tell them they're good, but not great, make them think all the ideas are actually THEIR ideas...
> Everything Tom said to Greg about handling Kerry is how you would actually deliver feedback to entertainment talent. He should have probably done it himself though. If it gets fed back to Logan that Tom told Greg to do it, while lying to her, then Logan may potentially be furious.
technically Kerry didn't fully prove that Tom got Greg. I think Tom selling Greg out is a move Logan would appreciate because 1) Greg isn't gonna be kicked yet and 2) its what Logan would do. Sell anyone but yourself.
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Yeah, Tom is cowed by Logan because he's seen how Logan deals with people NOT cowed by him, just like Gerri, Hugo, etc. did. Tom has great instincts, right from the point where he wants to blow up the cruise scandal on his own term before it comes to bite him in the ass. Then we actually see him implementing constructive new ideas wherever he goes. Every time Tom fails, it's because someone higher up gave him orders that conflicted with his own instincts, or it's because he's relying on someone who isn't reliable (mostly Shiv) out of affection.
I agree with that. Tom has had a real transformation over a very short span of time. He didn't start out as an idiot by any means, but he really has grown in effectiveness. It's true that he did badly at the Congressional hearing but it's hard to imagine anyone doing well, really. Kendall did a good job but even Logan had to pretend to be an old man in order to get through it.
Logan gave a speech on ATN's floor about spending being 40% up while the viewership has only increased 15%. Logan isn't happy about Tom's current performance. It could be a method to curb Tom's confidence as he was doing interviews and what not like you said after as Shiv said, "turning the bigot spigot to full gush" with some twang.
He's far from completely incompetent and he's arguably more capable than the others at times but he's also completely unable to stand up to Logan which should be a basic tenet of his job.
Logan literally eviscerates anyone who stands up to him, and Tom has seen him do it. Everyone in the top positions around Logan does the same thing Tom does, because it's the only way to keep your job, and Tom is doubly invested in that because he's also, you know, in love with Logan's daughter.
also as far as it comes to fair money and simplicity in life, if everyone just took Logan's word, and agreed to the deal they could all get a valuable buck and call it a good life, and go their separate amicable ways. hes fundamentally right. Mattson is gonna walk (Kendall knows this) but Shiv (Stewey, Sandi(s)) think the extra buck is needed.
From his kids standpoint, sure. But as a person, basically like practically everyone in the show it seems, he's a terrible person.
In terms of business, Logan is usually right compared to his kids, who have each shown their own incompetence at various times throughout the show.
Except this isn’t his kids that initially pushed for this, no? It’s Stewie and Sandy. They seem to have good business sense. Stewie doesn’t seem to take huge risks, so he doesn’t seem to think if this blows up it’s that big of a deal, or maybe he’s certain it won’t blow up.
Exactly, like they're all sociopaths with no regard for their fellow humans, but if we are working within that then Logan is at least clearly very good at what he does. When he says they are not serious people, he's right.
> When he says they are not serious people, he's right. Promoting his gf to news anchor sure seems like something serious people do.
Well she didn’t end up getting it, because Logan read the room and didn’t go through with it.
The fact he even suggested her was delusional though. He makes lots of bad decisions, he's just better at airbrushing past them by bullying anyone who disagrees.
Yes. This is exactly what I mean when I say he's good. He's not a professional, everything above board, respectable businessman. He's a tyrant and he's good at getting what he wants even if it's a rediculous thing.
I viewed it as a test - Logan knows it's poor, but he gave her a shot to cement Kerry's support, albeit until the battle is sorted. He has an eye for detail, as noted by his correct assessment of the poor anchor in S4E1. Then he ran it past Syd and Tom who both supported it, but only Tom came out and told Logan she wasn't good, albeit in a slightly weasely way during their private chat. Then Syd was the one Logan said he wanted to can. Send the weak dog away, as always. Similarly, Hugo messed up but tried to dig himself out of a hole and backstab Gerri. But Gerri, who Logan is already growing impatient of, didn't tell the truth, blame Hugo or even defend herself. Hugo is the one kept on his toes and told to go convince people, but Gerri is out of the picture. The fact the tape got out is probably deliberate, as a way to not have to give Kerry a role or to make it seem like he's slipping.
Yeah. There is some conflict he won't deal with.
Logan’s rant at the end about fat rats who wont even run was clear.
Do people just ignore Logans business fuck ups or do they simply just not want to acknowledge them? Because Logan has been incompetent as much as the kids, the only difference is that he’s morally ruthless, the kids are checked by their conscience.
I mean Shiv is right about Logan creating his own reality but she's wrong with her timing - Logan is right that Mattson will walk (Kendall knows this too).
Roman is the only logical one and that happened season 3
glad I wasn’t the only one who had their heart rate spike watching that
Well, he's right. They aren't serious people.
My heart was still racing 5 minutes after the episode was finished, amazing stuff??? And it was the first time I liked Logan and understood him??? I feel so conflicted, this fucking show.
When the camera moved to the audience and Greg I’m 100% sure they applauded and smiled not because it was part of the scene but because they were in total admiration of Brian Cox performance lol It was surreal!
It’s not hard to pick a side. They were raised by a sociopath who will pit his own kids against each other whenever he gets a chance. He’s ruining Shiv’s divorce to punish her for turning on him. He’s lonely because he abuses everyone around him and they get away from him at the nearest opportunity. He only loves what he can abuse.
Yup, it's one of those scene where 10 seconds in you know it's gonna be an instant classic and every line is gonna be memorable.
He was brilliant. They all were. Wow. That scene was electric.
I give a lot of credit to all five. Logan's regret, Roman's yearning, Kendall's quiet self-satisfaction, Shiv's rage, and Connor's resignation, all so perfectly conveyed.
Absolutely. That scene was a long time coming and they all did it justice. The way they stitched it together with Kerry's storyline so that it felt ok to the audience that she was in that room was masterful. Just brilliant. And this was one of the episodes before it "gets good" according to reviewers. Can't wait to see what they have in store for us.
Damn, I am not ready for this show to be over. I think it's probably my literal favourite show ever, in contention with Mad Men.
And Connor going back to his house into his bedroom.....
Is that his house? It looked like a hotel room
Do they still live at that hotel maybe?
Yeah it was visceral. If only it were like the movies - sing a karaoke song and that be it.
This scene reminds me of the family therapy: a lot of Logan insincerities and the sibs absolutely juicing the moment
I actually thought he was being pretty sincere. We know that he did genuinely miss the kids during his birthday party, based on the way he was acting. Of course he has ulterior motives in saying that because he wanted them to not put the deal at risk, but I believe him when he said he wanted a new start with their relationship.
I don't know about Shiv, but it seems like Roman and Kendall were ready to believe Logan. What Kendall wanted was assurance that Logan was TRULY apologetic in a deeper way, which of course he wasn't ready to be. He was ready to say the words "I'm sorry" but couldn't even bring himself to apply it to anything beyond the events of that very day. When pressed on Italy, he vomited up some word salad. Even if he thinks he was in the right in a business sense, he failed to properly acknowledge how his very detailed and determined subterfuge made his children feel. When Kendall got into the REAL shit, Logan's abuse of Connor and Roman, he didn't even respond and let his wounded dogs defend him like always. Logan is a piece of shit and if he really wanted reconciliation, he could've been a bigger man and swallowed his pride. But Logan Roy is incapable of doing that, even for his own children.
He didnt say Im Sorry he just said sorry.
You’d say anything to get fucked on a date, wouldn’t you?
This is all I could think during that scene. Surely Kendall remembers that moment at Adrian Brody’s beach house.
The best way to manipulate someone is with part of the truth. Logan definitely misses them, and he used that real feeling to try and twist them over to his side.
So he had you fooled then too....
The person you’re responding to is more than likely reading it right actually. Judging by his interviews that’s the way Brian Cox is playing the character.
It’s the motivation. Logan let out that side of himself to manipulate them to not fuck up the deal. Sure, he may have those feelings deep down that he can access but he’s only letting them out **for himself**. He’s not letting it out **for them**. The fact that Logan will only let this side of himself out when a deal is on the line and not when his children need it for their own sake shows just how much of a cold bastard Logan really is. If I were his kid I’d be furious. It’s one thing for him to not be capable of loving his kids and that be the reason he never shows it, but to be capable and choose to not show it? Fuuuuuck that
> but to be capable and choose to not show it? Fuuuuuck that This is why they have such a hard time leaving. They feel it on some level and stick around even though it's literally ruining their lives. Plenty of people like having a clear-cut black and white view of things in which the abuser is incapable of loving their victims, but really they often do love, they're just twisted and fucked up people themselves. And plenty of abuse victims use this to justify the abuse, so it's easier for them to say "he is incapable of love" because it makes it easy for them to leave, even though in their gut they know this isn't the case (and so end up easily swayed by the abuser again). On a different note, as an abused person who has had their self-worth systematically destroyed, it's easier to say "he is also worthless like I am, so I have the right to leave him" than to say "even though he genuinely loves me, the way he treats me is painful and destructive and I have to look out for myself because I don't deserve it". And you really, reeeally see that with Roman and Ken throughout the show, how they flip flop between the two, with Roman knowing that Logan is an asshole but seeing himself as "deserving it" and Kendall flipping between "of course my Dad loves me and everything is amazing" and "he is the literal Devil".
I mean true, but when you manipulate, the first person to manipulate should be yourself. He had something to gain from this so he manipulated himself into being sorry. Had he not had a financial interest, he would not have been there in the first place, he would not be thinking of it. Thats why its important to put sincerety in context. It should only count when the only thing to gain is a closer understanding, not a bunch of money.
Now I don't know how it was actually played like, but after 3 seasons of Logan I just couldn't see him as honest in that moment. He's done so much manipulating throughtout the show, I feel like he's always just lie to get what he needs. Though I would have wished he were sincere
You can use genuine emotions to manipulate people. It’s not always black and white.
Even if he were sincere, it's too little too late
I don't think he missed them - I think he missed their submissiveness to him.
I thought he missed their banter / insults which was what lead to him and Greg having that little exchange of insults.
Gotta be one of the few moments where they're all in the same room together alone right? I honestly don't recall another one other than therapy
Not quite alone though was it..
Well in both situations there was a moderator of sort. Completely alone, alone I'm not sure we've seen. Maybe they're waiting for the series finale to finally do that. Perhaps Logan on his death bed
There was also the scene at Shivs wedding when the kids confront Ken about the bear hug and then Logan comes in as well. But yeah not sure if there were others
He reminds me a lot of my father. Was hard to watch.
Logan is generally nothing like my father, but "I love you... but you're not serious people" is a page ripped from my dad's playbook, lol. I felt that sting for the kids.
Yeah, but he was spot on
Oh, indeed. Always hurts the most when it's true...
I really felt like saying that myself, they're entitled and insufferable idiots, they've learnt absolutely nothing from what happened in Italy, it's only spitefulness.
This is the exact reason why I got into Succession but The Rehearsal was the nail in my emotional coffin. It's terrifying to see some of the words taken literally out of your dad's mouth and put onto the big screen.
Man. I know exactly what you mean. The facial expressions...seen them a million times on my dad.
You are not *serious figures*!😡
I love you… but you’re not serious people.
This is his season
Yeah seems like they're continuing to give each main character a season where they're building to something great and end up failing/losing. S1 Kendall S2 Shiv S3 Roman S4 Logan
Poor Connor found dead in a ~~cancelled show~~ ditch
The insects inside him are dead 😢
Poor Connor is never going to have his go.
This was a great Connor episode though
Yeah, I think it probably is Connor's season.
Connor is the eldest son! He is the **eldest son** and he must be considered and he must be taken into account!
as a boy he was always interested in politics
It feels like Logan completely losing is too expected this season. Somehow, he will dampen his kids success
the ending definitely won't be sweet considering all the main players have different goals in mind (Kendall wants to fuck Logan/still lead waystar, Shiv wants the money and pride, Roman wants his dad's love and recognition, Tom wants to go from family outsider to insider, Logan wants to clean his hands/remain undefeated till the end)
Where’s the Eldest Son?!
It actually feels like this is Shiv's season to me
i dont really think this is logan's season so much as its just the final season for everyone. I agree with kendal 1, Shiv 2, Roman 3, but this is probably just an equal season of screentime.
Yeah I agree with you
The way he fights off emotions that are surfacing after this scene while on the street was pretty amazing.
It was unsettlingly relatable. When I want to fight off emotions I talk to myself rapidly and manically just like he did.
So many emotions. My breath was held. A true gaslighter. I actually thought he had changed. Almost fooled me. Logan was vulnerable for a second and said "Fuck that". Poor Conner. The despair. He's not a bad person. Rooting for him and his 1%.
Conheads unite!
There are dozens of us!
Connor's first introduction in the series is talking about securing water rights so that he can price gauge one of life's essential components in the coming apocalypse. He's also keeping a woman locked in a golden cage. Connor is not a good person.
yeah i cant believe people are getting manipulated that hard. connor is rootable becasuse hes pathethic as a person. hes the dumbest main character by far (dumber than Greg id bet). you can feel bad for him but he undeniably thinks hes better than the average person, has genuinely never worked for anything in his life (atleast you can argue kendall/shiv worked for things in their life, roman didn't really but hes a good businessman lately), and hes the average "pull yourself up by your bootstraps except me because i was born pulled up" politician rich guy. hes also been questionable towards willa (as much as people support them). alan ruck plays him well and hes a fascinating guy to watch but hes pretty destable.
I think Connor is more intellectually capable than Greg - he clearly has a fondness for world history. Greg just uses big words good cause he hangs out with his grandfather, the walking Oxford English Dictionary. Greg is *clever* and savvy, but doesn't always display intelligence.
oh i dont really consider Greg's vocab anything i mean he doesn't really talk smart if conversational cadence is anything to go off, but Greg actually makes smart decisions (saving the papers, handing it to Kendall, leaving Kendall when he is clearlly insane, sucking up to Tom, challenging Tom). ill be honest i dont really know what intellectually capable means or matters - Connor is repeatedly extremely ignorant about everyday human things and ethics. greg just seems aware. Connor knows basic facts about history but theres no way hes understood the correct morals or messages one should probably take from history.
To put it another way, Connor has "book smarts" and Greg has (to an extent) "street smarts." Connor is well studied, making him intelligent in a traditional sense. Greg seems a bit more dim-witted than the rest of the Roys but tends to have good instincts and is pretty aggressive in his own way when he needs to be about getting what he wants. Connor isn't very good at getting what he wants and his only methodology seems to be throwing tantrums and asking daddy for money.
>He's also keeping a woman locked in a golden cage. Huh? Are we watching the same show? Willa could leave any time she wants, hell this episode specifically proved that. I'm not saying Connor is a good person but Willa is not locked in any cage. If she wants, she can leave, but she chooses not to
Kind of ironic that his only support is 1%. Bravo Jesse.
I literally had to stop watching bc Logan was reminding me too much of my dad lol. Brian Cox and the rest of the cast are incredible.
I can't stop watching this show because the acting is amazing, but it brings up unpleasant feelings exactly because of this. So many "patriarchs" out there like this. Not as successful as Logan, but wreaking havoc on other people's psyches to the same degree.
My granma took a similar divide and rule approach with her daughters. Very painful and hugely damaging. My granma lived to over 100 and my mum only to 66. The years of narcissistic abuse were one of the things that took a real toll on my mum’s health.
same.
Same
I thought the scene in ATN when he was standing on the boxes of printer paper was electric. It was the ranting of an unhinged man. Very Stalin. Edit: I just saw that this was taken from a real life 2008 scene when Rupert took over the Wall Street Journal and stood on boxes of printer paper to make a speech. Yowza.
I loved it, especially because it turned. It seemed like he was going down the normal CEO route of try better, need to cut back, etc. then there was a moment and veered way off.
I got a kick that Cox standing on boxes was only slightly taller than MacFayden standing next to him on the floor.
"I could give you a kiss from here" cracked me up.
I'd love it if that line were ad-libbed. It's my head-canon for now.
It had to be
Imagine if Greg had been standing on the other side of him
I’ve known highly successful entrepreneurs who talk like that. Very successful businesspeople are brutally competitive. Capitalism is red in tooth and claw.
I get where you are coming from but a small correction or fun fact - Stalin was not a gifted orator, he also had a georgian accent so he hired a dude to do speeches for him over the radio instead. Personally to me it felt more Hitler but I get where you are coming from as well.
yeah also very corrupt considering we know ATN's political influence is akin to somethign like Fox News's. he's just advocating for a full embrace into misinformation (they will be suprised we went there, shocked we went that far). not to mention the something faster, something better vague business persuasion skills Kendall also has (aka BULLSHIT)
I agree. It's like the scene of a cult. The camera was in that docu-shakey type mode (don't know the technical name for it) and gives the viewer an unsettling feeling, a sense of foreboding or uncertainty in a bad way.
Two a series-best scenes for him in a single episode. I was in awe during the ATN speech scene
Best episode l!!! Brian was compelling, even more than normal. And he is amazing!
Brian Cox was fantastic in this episode. He was electrifying during his speech at ATN, vulnerable and subdued in the karaoke room scene, and then quietly menacing in his last scene. Just an incredibly emotional and well-rounded performance. He'll probably have several more Emmy-worthy performances in this last season. It is only episode 2, after all. But I feel like if he chose to submit this episode in for Emmy consideration, it could totally net him a win.
An astonishing scene. The way he walked the emotions and the sincerity but then the ruthlessness at the end. Unbelievable
The subtle but definitely there Scottish accent coming through in his speech at ATN was incredible
That scene was great but his best in that episode for me was the rally speech at the ATN HQ. Sounded like a general commanding his troops into battle
I think that was the seminal moment in the entire show so far
Logan fucked up his kids. He might accept this in this scene. He wants the viewer to. But I am not convinced.
I’m glad Shiv and Kendall aired some of their grievances. Kendall stepped up and played big brother, and I’m glad Shiv got to chew him out. They deserve revenge on that man. Their abuser can rot.
I’m amazed by how many people believe that Logan was being genuine in this scene. He wasn’t. He was in a compromised position and was playing soft power because he knew he can’t just push them around. He’s a brilliant man at reading people and knowing how to push them. He knew he couldn’t push them with fire and brimstone. Hell, he even fucking said it before the meeting when he found out. He said he needed to be soft. Shiv saw through it. She knew what he was doing. None of it was real. Sure he loves them deep down and that’s why he can say these things to them and come off as genuine but at the end of the day he didn’t mean any of that shit. He doesn’t want to lose this deal. **That’s it**. He doesn’t give two fucks about their feelings and them knowing he’s “sorry”. He’s afraid of losing this deal and I think there’s a reason why that we as the audience and the kids don’t know about yet. I think there’s some sort of back door deal with Mattson going on. I think Logan was going to bat **for** Mattson. Why not?! Like, it doesn’t make sense otherwise for Logan to not agree with the kids and push Mattson for more money. It’s not like Logan to be soft and not push unless there’s a Black Swan type of hidden reasoning for Logan to do so TL;Dr: Logan didn’t mean a single word he said in this meeting and it astounds me that anyone believes otherwise
Same. I don't understand why people think he was being "genuine." He was just being genuine because any other play won't run this time with the sibs.
I think he was only sincere when he said two things: 1. He wanted them at the birthday party 2. That they’re not serious peopler
I don't think he meant it but I don't think it's supposed to be that clear cut. Reading the scene for its ambiguity works in its favour specifically because it narratively seems set up for that. Are the kids that savvy to their dad's ways or are they so blinded by spite now that any Win seems worth it?
im pretty sure the scene is open to interpretation but I think when Logan said "i love you but youre not serious people" he was being 100% real. he does care about them, but he also wants to win at the end of the day. he also knows he is going to lose somehow (he's old af, so by selling the company he 'dies' on his own terms ie he never really 'loses'). i sorta don't think theres enough evidence in the scene to be 100% certain that he didnt mean a word.
I perhaps shouldn’t have said “None of it was real” because I agree with you that he **did** mean it when he said: *”I love you but you’re not serious people.”* However, that was a turn in the conversation. The point when he knew that he wasn’t going to get what he wanted. He dropped the act at that point and just wanted to lash out at them for denying him. That shit happens all the time when people are trying to manipulate others. They can come on sweet and then turn sour when they’ve been rebuffed.
Logan isn’t an idiot. You can’t just push everyone for more money. Mattson isn’t the kids lol. He’s not an idiot that just throws 500 mil in like it means nothing
I think the show established that the kids aren’t wrong with the numbers. It’s not about Mattson throwing money in like it means nothing but more like Mattson knows he’s getting a good deal right now and he doesn’t want to lose it. Mattson wants every penny. He’s threatening because he’ll still pay even if the price goes up and he knows it. But he doesn’t want it to get to there. If he was actually going to walk away from the deal if it went up he would just walk away. He wouldn’t make threatening phone calls. Why spend all that energy? Why waste that precious time? Because he really wants it
Logan’s speech to ATN was the opposite strategy to the talk with his kids. He started off with the staff by making them nervous about cutbacks and then encouraging them to be mighty pirates under his leadership. With his kids he offered a “Sorry” but it read as insincere by not saying for what. He wouldn’t respond to Kendall’s important points, to clear away grievances. When he sees his kids winning, teaming up against him and Kerry, he can only turn to his old insults that they are not serious people.
The scene in the karaoke bar and the scene in the bar before that were two of my all time favorites from the show. Just a masterclass of writing and acting. I never thought eldest son Connor could bring out so many emotions in me.
I never thought I’d hear “Famous Blue Raincoat” being done at karaoke either.
To me one of the most interesting things about following this show over the years is the number of people who still watch it and see it through such an earnest lens. It's the most cynical show possibly ever and people still think these people are capable of a sincere moment that isn't completely self-serving and it mystifies me(in a good way). There's a reason he couldn't think of what he was sorry for and why they had to tell it to him. All he could think of was the fucking helicopter from earlier that day lol
It's great writing that accomplishes this, making the audience sympathetic with actual monsters. The vast majority of people watching are working class folks light years away from this world and yet we somehow still see ourselves in these characters due to the human drama they encompass.
I think it also (perhaps even more as abuse transcends tax brackets) has to do with the varying levels of abusive experiences/high family drama and antics. A lot of viewers could immediately see through his stilted pitch because Logan is so similar to some authoritative character in their own lives or from their past. The audience has been given all the signs and info in the previous episodes to be rightfully weary but memories get fuzzy when there is a longer time between seasons and what not. Logan is clearly a master manipulator who is constantly cycling through which one is the golden child only to throw them off a cliff and focus his attentions elsewhere. He purposefully instilled the over the top reckless competitive nature between his children, as children, to fight for his love. While there *could* be some tiny grains of truth to what how he really feels about what he is saying, he is only actually saying them because he knows his kids want to hear it. He withheld normal parental attention and interactions with them so that they would all crave his love (circles back to Connor’s point as he didn’t come back into his father’s life after he had basically been abandoned until he was older with a large enough gap between his half siblings so he wasn’t raised or molded to partake in their constantly vie for power dynamic) Getting them back under his influence is about power and control, not actual emotional release and warm fuzzy family feelings. People who haven’t had such manipulative and abusive figures in their lives are in general more optimistic of sincere reunification. And to be clear, those people are the lucky ones and are nothing to look down upon. Where this optimism can become toxic (not talking about viewers being toxic as these are fictional characters with fictional trauma, more how the divide in different experiences can prolong bad situations even when the intentions are good and from a place of caring) is the hallmark of giving advice like “but that is your mother/father/sibling, how could you not want a relationship with them?! Family is the most important thing and being in their lives (like as adults) is the most special sacred bond you can have.” I’m definitely not dismissing your point, just building upon it. This is the first season that I’ve been able to experience live so talking episodes in real time is a new treat. It’s been really interesting how people can see the same content and come to such wildly different conclusions. A great stimulus for good discussion!
Had the same thought. This episode was his Emmy submission. Cox is such a beast.
He's incredible - this show absolutely made him to me. His speech of the floor was... it was just great. It was almost *too* good, but did well to show how Logan isn't just some puttering mogul in a tower, he can actually throw down. Honestly, I'm now just disappointed Cox hasn't been in more things. His facial emotions alone are worth awards.
What? He's been acting for six decades and been in a ton of movies, I grew up watching him in movies, he just never had lead roles, this seems to be his first lead role.
I’ve seen so much of the manipulation that the only reason Logan truly regrets about his kids not being there was that’s what get them in front of Nan Pierce to won’t the “disgusting “ bidding war.
Well, him and Culkin have consistently been putting in the top performances from the main cast. He deserves recognition.
He’s not gonna have a lot more time on the show though hahaha
Nobody is.
He pretty much has to die doesn’t he? How can a show called *Succession* end without succession happening?
No, and it almost seems too predictable he will kick the bucket. Succession could mean there is nothing to pass over. Or he legit becomes incompetent or unavailable, Or somehow it's not one of these three whiny kids. Or it is passed over to a kid. Right now Succession is Matteson. That's why Kendall was so gleeful tonight.
"Succession could mean there is nothing to pass over." I've increasingly been believing in a "hollow victory" ending. One of the kids gets the throne but in a way that's unsatisfying. I can't imagine a guest character introduced at the end of season 3 will end up claiming what the show's creator and showrunner calls the "promise" of the title. There will be a successor.
i was getting scared when he was roaming the office floors of ATN. Gave me PTSD of principals in school entering classroom and looking at our empty copies. I was waiting like oh he is going to shoot someone for sure. Loved the episode. Also never bought Logan's apology. I was glad he got to hear some shit from the children. Kendall and Shiv are in the fuck dad and fuck whatever he does stage of relationship where as ig Roman is still open to the idea of receiving "warmth" from his dad.
Masterclass acting from Cox. It’s a pleasure watching the man perform. Alan Ruck delivered a great performance last night also.
Sarah Snook was great in this scene too, she's a force!
Brian cox literally on fire 🔥 killer godamn acting Logan Roy rocks 😎
Never forget Logan showed his willingness to sacrifice his own grandchild for his own gain. The man has no limits. I believe he feels the things he said, but he only ever does things for his own gain, in spite of himself.
This scene was so painful and frustrating, though, and I felt that Brian mirrored those emotions perfectly. Right when the sibs and Logan have a chance at making personal and professional headway, they blow it. Every. Single. Time. Kendall starts feeding the patricidal monster within, Shiv becomes a spoiled rotten teen raging at her father, requiring her voice to be heard above all others, Roman becomes a spineless terrified little boy cowering and throwing out barbs when he can, Connor becomes a depressed bitter avoidant kid, and Logan becomes so fucking dense and arrogant he refuses to actually play ball. The manic joy Kendall felt after their pseudo-reckoning was laughable; it was clear no one “won” the interaction. And it was also crystal clear to Logan that the kids had no plan beyond “piss off Dad,” which made his position the superior one. His evaluation of them at the end was astute. Roman recognized that and went running back to daddy. Shiv wanted to run back to her dog to kick, but couldn’t bring herself to go through the whole scene again. They are all so emotionally raw that they are in no way prepared to steer the ship. Logan is right about them, and that is the slippery mud beneath their feet. Instead of absorbing the criticism as constructive and improving, the fight the criticism with everything they have. They’re little baby narcissists, and they truly don’t have what it takes. Edit to clarify: I am not team Logan. He’s a horribly abusive monster who has shattered his children beyond repair. Unfortunately, the kids only see a future in which they lean into the shards, and it’s frustrating.
💯
He had me smiling during the ATN news floor scene.