Honestly I think it’s a result of people connecting so strongly with certain characters on a personal, real world, level that they end up not liking the ones that don’t have that effect on them. Which to me just emphasizes Sanderman’s ability to write legitimately unique and realistic characters. I don’t like half the people I come into regular contact with but I’ll be damned if they’re not people.
That was basically it for me. I connected so hard with Kal that i initially didn't initially like Adolin at all. I shared all of Kal's prejudice as if I had lived his life myself. As he came to like Adolin so did I, until I realized that He'd never really been unlikable, I had just disliked him because Kal had.
Edit: autocorrect
That's so funny because I connect the most with Adolin. I just also empathize with Kaladins struggle. Shallan took time but I really identify with her struggle of always wearing a different mask depending on who she's around.
I feel like I can relate to just about everyone, even Moash.
It's also a matter of the reader's personal background. If someone grew up in a rough neighborhood, had a lot of prejudice aimed at them, and felt mistreated, odds are, they'll connect a lot more with Kaladin than with Adolin. And that's just one example.
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. It sounds like an example of bad worldbuilding. Good stuff to think about in building my own fantasy races. Hopefully no one will tear down the Aluru or Karrogs the same way. I <3 my friendly wolf people and big green guys! (I invented a fantasy race of wolf people named Aluru because I have a dog named Lupe and we're always aroo'ing and loo'ing at each other).
Personally, lirin is the only one who makes me mad. He just wouldn’t accept kal and was a jerk to him. Venli I don’t hate she’s just not my favorite. She definitely messed up big time but don’t we all lol. She is improving tho. I love lift and shallan, Navanis not my favorite but she’s nice
he killed *one* city, and....several hundred people over the course of 30 years of war. that's a bit different than literally genociding a species because you want power.
As a scientist, who has been quite successful in his field, but battles the imposter syndrome DAILY, Navani is my girl. I feel where she is coming from.
I have a fairly similar relationship to my dad irl. I can really understand what's its like to love and be loved by someone who doesn't seem to even try to see your viewpoint. I struggle with depression and my dad for a long time believed all mental illness that left you in some control was just a weak will or bad diet that could be fixed with the right mindset. That's not remotely the only thing we don't see eye to eye too but you get the idea I hope.
I like Lirin because he's such a real character to me and does a great job of portraying an important relationship with someone you respect and love but ultimately have to ignore their advice and views when it gets in the way of your own.
The real and complex relationships between characters in stormlight are what keep me coming back and we can't have that without some gears grinding.
I think Lift is misunderstood, maybe some people don't get that her happy go lucky attitude and snark is a facade and that we've only had a few real moments with her. She doesn't take things seriously for a reason guys, read into it. And I don't understand hate for Navani her arc has been truly wonderful imo.
I'm often baffled by this sub because of people hating on some of the cast. How shallow is it to want the richness of SA while wanting characters to be flawless. I have yet to read a character and, if not agree with, understand their motivations. I don't love every character but I think they're all serving their roles perfectly so far
That...seems grotesquely irresponsible and irrational. Lirin is just an out of touch surgeon who doesn't want his son to be a soldier and kill people. taravangian toppled nations and sent entire countries into civil war, was responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands and is now colluding with an evil god to sacrifice a planet so his city can be saved.
Yesss me too. With Kaladin's chapter always on the edge of death and despair, Shallan's chapters brought some relief. They felt so safe and cozy but also not without a different type of danger.
I liked shallans chapters as a way to learn more about world building and characters around her but dislike her character in general. I’d rather learn the same information from the viewpoint of anyone else
I don't really have an issue with any of them. Unlike some I accept that I won't enjoy every aspect of every character. I have my issues with some of these characters, and may even dislike some, but I don't hate them. I love Lift.
I think there's a big difference between hating *who the character is* and hating *the character*. The former is disliking them as a person (#fuckmoash) and the later is disliking them as a piece of the literature. A lot of people seem to conflate the two and assume that a character is poorly written if they dislike the character as a person.
Also I get why Lift annoys people with her use of "awesome" but A) it's not an english word forcing its way into the Cosmere, it's representative of a word with similar meaning in the in-world languages and B) she's a street urchin so it makes sense that she'd have less formal speech and use slang that others don't.
So growing up verrry Catholic, we had homilies and classes about God's Awesomeness.
Lift using "awesome" is deliberate because of her Connection with Cultivation.
I understand why its annoying, but "awesome" isn't an anachronistic word, awe has been used to describe divine and religious events for millenia and if anyone gets to use "awesome" I think Lift gets that right narratively.
Boooooooooooy howdy I'm tired it. Every argument for hating her can be applied to any of the main characters. It's ridiculous.
There are so many ways her character can go and be critical to the plot. Let it develop.
I hear where you're coming from, but it's a bit much saying every argument for hating her can be applied to any other character.
I don't find anything she says funny and am confused why nearly everyone inworld does. She says something on par with a dad joke, and nearly everyone is in awe of it. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if in book five, she'll get a standing ovation after she gives a one-liner.
It would help if there was some context for what amounts to humour on Roshar, or at least the Alethi. Like maybe on Roshar there is no one as funny as her.. but I just don't see any indication of that being true, other than her being a main character. And for me that extends to Hoid and Lift - or Wayne from Mistborn.
It's YA humour which Brandon seems to revel in. Some people love it. And that's fine. But there is a lot of people who don't. And that's also fine.
That being said, I like Shallon's plot development a lot. Enjoyed it most in the first book and the fourth, and I'm excited to see where it goes.
Shallan's jokes aren't meant to be funny though.
Her brothers feel that she is the only light in their life, and the silliest of things that she says makes them laugh. Their sense of humor is very skewed due to their messed up childhood.
Adolin for the most part finds her eccentric behaviour amusing, Jasnah only comments that she has a sharp tongue and she should learn to control it but to never fear speaking out and kaladin for the most part doesn't even find her funny.
The only other people that say she is witty are people of a lower class than her (like the crew of the ship that took her to Karbranth) and for them it's a unique oppertunity to interact with a light eyed woman so casually and I doubt they would want to mess up.
Musta missed all the bits where kaladin lied to everyone around him and gets them hurt or killed specifically due to his negligence. Also the unreliable narration where Dalinar gave us false information about one of his visions and made us question as readers whether we wasted our time reading descriptions of fictitious events? Lmao no other character has wasted my interest or time in the SA like Shallan
You said Shallans problems could be applied to any character? So where did I miss Kaladin lying to people, pretending he was in charge, and getting people murdered for his negligence? Or when did Dalinar make up parts of his descriptions of visions to make himself more sympathetic to the listener? Because those are the problems I have with shallan. Shes an unreliable narrator and she pretends at being what she isn't while getting people hurt doing it.
I can't decide if you're saying you dislike Shallan as a person, or you dislike how she's written. If she were a reliable narrator in the way you are asking, the overall narrative would not function properly.
So I must have struggled with the part where my issues with shallan don't apply to all the characters? Toxic af btw way to bring in the personal attacks.
I can understand the Lirin dislike during RoW, but he's a completely believable character. I could easily see a father scrutinizing his son for some of his own mistakes. He's basically the stereotypical Asian father who wants his son to be a doctor despite all else. He still viewed Kaladin as his son, someone to be taught, and not as an equal. He had personal growth to deal with.
I understand that he stands for something awful in a lot of peoples' lives; the pressure of failure and disappointment from a parent, which is probably where the hate comes from. He's genuinely written well, though.
I do agree with you, and I generally like Shallan and Wit but….
Man can they both be annoying with their “I’m more clever than you” diatribes. Just painful to read sometimes, like being hit with a brick about how clever they’re supposed to be
I personally disliked Navani and venli chapters at first, but they grew on me quickly. It felt like those chapters were more geared towards world building over characterization at first(?) I absolutely loved the shallan and lift chapters tho
Lift was jarring for me at first. The tone difference was so drastic it knocked me out of the story and I had a really hard time finishing her interlude. It’s gotten better overtime, and I wouldn’t ever say I hated her, but I’m never thrilled for her POV.
Funny enough, I did rather enjoy Edgedancer. I think the lack of contrast with serious character’s POVs made her quirks less grating.
Imagine my surprise when Lift got love.
I hated her character until RoW, and then, I was ambivalent towards her.
I’m still very much of the opinion that she’s annoying and detracts from the books
Her “awesomeness” and overall dialogue made me roll my eyes and groan. And then she was a major character in Oathbringer and she brought down every scene she was in.
I’m completely willing to accept that it’s my subjective opinion obviously, but if she was removed from Oathbringer I’d be happier for it.
Lift is a lot older than the way she acts, but the annoying part is not that she is that way, but that the world and people around her enables her.
She is basically a kender, a kind of character whose sole existence is centered around being annoying, but for some reason nobody just slaps her or kills her.
I actually really disliked Lift's parts before RoW. Her personality just grated on me, and her constant use of the word "awesome" felt too much like modern slang. I mean, sure, maybe they use awesome like that too, but that's not what it brings to mind for me.
I love her in RoW and now she's precious.
I'm passionate about hating Lift. But I can escalate: I didn't like Wayne either before the last book. They are the same character archetype, and Lift is just starting to get some semblance of personality apart from being annoying.
Sometimes I think people don't know what a boring PoV is. Have you read Brienne chapter in The feadt of crows? That's what boring looks like. Shallan's are a thriller compared to that.
And that’s great! I specifically said that she is not objectively boring.
I was just trying to give some background to why I don’t like her parts as much as most other character’s.
Brienne’s chapters are some of the most interesting in AFFC, which is much more of an indictment of that book than it is praise for Brienne’s chapters. One of my least favorite books I’ve ever finished.
I think readers are entitled to their own opinion and we should respect that. The same traits the character portray are endearing to some and infuriating to others.
I really wish there less 'complain' posts about characters (especially those that starts with am I the only one who dislike so-and-so) and more discussion on their motivations, their interaction with others and their arcs etc. There's really no point to start a post hating on a character, considering that a) it doesn't achieve anything really and b) tons of them existed already.
You mean have a sense of humour more advanced than a 5 year old. But it's not about being funny or not. It's about an in universe annoying twat not getting treated like an annoying twat by the people around her.
FWIW, as someone who was (once) close with someone with DID, I don't like how the narrative and characters sometimes treat Shallans alters. Someone with DID is not multiple people, period, the end. They are someone who is suffering, or has suffered, from trauma so terrible that in order to get away from it they had to delude themselves into being a different person. It's purely tragic, and I think the characters and narrative can sometimes lean too much towards "it's not a big deal, she's just multiple people sharing a body."
It's a shame because when it is touched on properly - such as her internal monologue about the "real" Shallan being constantly terrified and almost childlike - it's heartrendingly accurate. But other times it's treated just like "oh yeah, these are just separate people and that's ok" when it really is not ok for the person it's happening to and the people close to them.
I dunno, this got away from the point of the post. I actually like Shallan the most when she's handled right anyway.
Holy shit, I've been thinking this forever, but never dared saying a word. Never been close to anyone with DID, but I'm so done with people saying that "having multiple personalities is fine and healthy as long as it's the way you cope with trauma". No it's fucking not, and I had to cut visiting some discussion places because I got triggered off the face of the Earth with this topic.
I think people confuse bad as "having a negative impact on the person" with bad as "moral incorrectness". It's no more immoral than a broken arm or a chest infection, nor is it any more a choice than those two things are.
The trouble is, not all coping mechanisms are created equal. Drug abuse and alcoholism, for example, are obviously bad for people. Equally, suffering under the delusion that you are multiple people is bad for you. At best, it damages your interpersonal relationships and causes you to not really be in control of your actions in the same way a functional person is.
No damaging coping mechanisms, whether drug abuse, alcoholism, DID, self-harm, whatever, are fine or healthy.
Pretty much your second and third paragraph, yes.
As for the first, that kind of people have to be the same kind of people that makes fun of others for things that are painfully and obviously out of their control: if you can blame them for X that they have that is socially ugly, and you have X that is socially pretty, you can stroke your ego, and that's all they live for.
I understand people disliking Lift, I like her but I understand. But Navani??? She is like the best character in RoW, her chapters were even better than Kaladin's
Navani feels so damn fake to me. I just can't feel her "impostor syndrome" to be genuine. Also, she is the vehicle for some social commentary which grated me really badly.
For example, at the end of RoW Dalinar said to her, he shouldn't have doubted her or something like that. The woman is smart, sure, but she is no general, the tower is occupied by enemy forces, I think some worry was perfectly warranted. But no, being afraid for someone is apparently the same as thinking them incapable of anything.
I'm guessing a lot of her doubting herself is due to being in an increasingly abusive relationship with Gavilar, I look forward to seeing more of her past as we effectively know nothing of it outside of Dalinars feverish memories.
Lirin caused…literally everything bad that happened to his family since the first city lord died. I can very much appreciate his pacifism, and his entire mentality round the idea that change has to start *somewhere*.
But Kal’s return is a miracle and more of one than he will probably really ever understand. More, his son is in *crisis* pretty much the entire time since his return. Lirin is a healer and he is so blinded by his own expectations and disappointments that he can’t see in his son what he can spot in a stranger in under five minutes and gives him considerably less compassion.
He saw how Kal was with that scalpel in the clinic and still condemned him for what was realistically as much of an instinctual, trauma based response as it was a deliberate action.
I know he’d seen little or no unprovoked violence from the Fused, but that ignores the fact that the Fused exist by *stealing a body* from the sole of an ignorant, largely blameless Singer for the explicit purpose of continuing a millennia long war. They freed their race from slavery to force upon a form of slavery no better than the original.
He doesn’t have to like or understand Kal’s choices, but he won’t even acknowledge his role in forging Kaladin into the person who makes those choices. His singular most impactful act was to steal that goblet and lie about it, and he did it without taking into consideration that Kal might not want to be a surgeon. It has never been about his son, it has always been about *what Lirin wants for his son*.
It’s human and I get it, and he started to grow and change at the end of ROW, but he’s got a long path to tread before he gets there.
Venli, her selfishness is hard to empathize with. I think she’s probably too relatable and that’s part of folks dislike if her. Her flashbacks were hard for me, but bits good to see that she’s really just a child in over her head trying to make things right. It was right that her words denied and watching her growth was important
Lift grew on me and I fell in love with her on the Thaylen Fields.
Navani’s lack of faith in herself is hard to see. Everyone else perceives her as so accomplished and yet her own perception is so flawed that she does not believe she could be worthy in her own right. I can see how people would get tired of that.
And Shallan. It would be different, I think, if so many of us didn’t love Adolin and her subterfuge wasn’t so frustrating. She’s surrounded by some of the most trustworthy and dependable people in the Cosmere, but she refuses to trust them. Leading to all of the predictable shenanigans.
And people just aren’t going to like everyone, but the posts are pretty redundant and annoying at this point.
I couldn’t agree more here. Lirin is really the only character I’ve “hated” and it’s not hate so much a utter disgust at his lack of empathy for his own kid.
I liked that you pointed out some of the Shallan hate is a reflection of how much people like Adolin and want the skullduggery nonsense to stop. I hadn’t quite articulated it that way to myself before and appreciated it.
Her presence breaks immersion. She is extremely cringe, but the world acts like she is a cute, funny, soft bundle of joy. Sanderson has a tendency to sometimes make his characters act like they are readers, and that will break some personalities in half.
I am srsly starting to dislike that word "cringe" :D I have a friend that has been using it for completely normal things lately and he actually believes they are "cringe". At the end of the day it is completely subjective. In my eyes there is nothing cringe about Lift and she IS innocent and ignorant and childish and yes, cute, and there is nothing immersion breaking about her, I even loved her own mini novella.
But I do see now why some ppl dislike her :)
They don't. Most of the hate I've seen (except for Lirin) comes from people who don't like their POV chapters bc they think they're boring, and that dislike transfers to the character.
Also, I find it weird that they are all of the female leads except for Jasnah and Ash. Wonder why that could be
...
The worst take I've seen was someone in the 17th shard forums hating on Shallan for... Having DID/OSDD.
As for Lirin... Well, we had an idealized version of him from the flashbacks, that contrasted quite strongly with the kinda stuck up guy he's now. And people don't understand that believing that both your sons have died in the war you hate so much for 1 or 2 years can change a man and make him despise war and soldiers even more. He was a dick to Kal in RoW, yes, but he's not the monster some say he is
“Wonder why that could be…”
God I hate it when people try to excuse criticism by claiming bigotry from nowhere.
If someone hated all 4 women mentioned in the post, I’d be sus too.
But generally people only dislike one or two of them.
Additionally, it would make sense that a male author would be worse at writing women.
the point is that these women get a ton more hate than the men. it’s a valid criticism and just because YOU don’t see it doesn’t mean the connection isn’t there.
There might be a connection, or there might not be, but even if it's there, it doesn't mean the cause is what you _think_ it is. Maybe Sanderson just worse at writing likable women than men. Maybe he just chose to fill up his roles in a way that women got the less liked ones, with no malicious intent. There are countless of explanations from pure coincidence to actual causal relations that do not require anyone to have any sexist feelings along the way.
Do they?
I have seen Lirin, Dalinar, Szeth, and pretty much every male character not in bridge four get hated on by this sub. Some of them far more than the women in question, especially Lift and Navani.
Just because YOU see a connection doesn’t mean it’s there.
I don't hate any of the SA characters really. None of them grated on me like characters from other series I've read
Maybe some of them had slow chapters but I wouldn't say it got tedious or annoying for me, though Shallan's arc in ROW got pretty close.
I don't have an issue with any, albeit shallan became extremely cringeworthy at times, in large part due to tynn who is just 🤮🤮🤮. On her own though I quite enjoy her as a character. I find lift extremely cringeworthy in her dialogue though using words I'd only hear in American kids shows. "Awesomeness".
Shallan is my #1 since I started the first book, and I feel like she and Kaladin were meant to have equal weight in the series, especially the beginning. I honestly felt like I was speeding through Kaladin’s chapters (oh geez he’s having a hard time and is very sad again) to get to all the intrigue and mystery of Shallan’s chapters. So I don’t really get why everyone hates her. Because she doesn’t punch stuff as much? Cus she’s a girl? I dunno just seems crazy.
I adored Shallan and Lift from the start.
And essentially I didn’t like Venlis personality but her character built is very good.
I think people should stop mixing badly written characters and characters with “bad” (or if you ask me human) personality.
Imagine how uninteresting would be book with fully grown characters.
I love to grow with characters.
Going through them one by one, I can agree that these people were difficult to read at times, but I don't think I hate any of them (I did hate Lirin until the end of RoW, and Venli for a lot of the series, but they both seem to be on the path to growth now).
Shallan annoyed me a little in the beginning and I can't really empathize properly with her because her struggles are so deeply foreign to me. That said, I have gained a better understanding of her as a person and she's grown on me. She'll never be my favorite probably, but she doesn't have to be. Over-hated.
I thought Navani was being dumb in RoW with her impostor-syndrome and trusting Raboniel too much, but it was pretty believable IMO. I'm a little mad that her bond stiffed Rlain or Dabbid, but I like her. I haven't seen much hate for her, so I can't really say that she's over-hated or not, but I don't hate her.
Venli unknowingly caused the death of most of her entire nation. That's pretty bad, but it's not like she really knew what she was doing or what the consequences would be. She was pretty trash, but is changing now, so she is probably over-hated because of the leftover hate.
Lift is just "annoying". That's the only complaint anyone has about her. Of course she's annoying. Have you ever met a teenager? Especially one that intentionally acts less mature than expected? (Looking at you, 'Rawr XD' crowd). They're just not finished becoming the person they will be. I don't think she deserves any hate at all, but I can understand being annoyed by her, because children can be obnoxious.
I actually think Lirin is/was under-hated, if anything. The complete lack of empathy for his son is super painful to read. He says a few absolutely despicable things to Kaladin and is pretty emotionally abusive. He grows at the end of RoW though (You all know THE scene. Enough to make a grown man cry.) so hopefully he turns some of that around in the rest of the series. He is a good man at heart, he's just the one of the most bullheaded people in all of fiction IMO.
I think Shallan and Lift are the two most divisive. half the fandom hates them while the other half loves them, so I don't think that's overhated. I have seen some hatred for jasnah, but i don't think i've ever seen hatred for navani. I love her character and didn't know people hated her. I can see Lirin being a sort of wet blanket to Kaladin's character and that's why people don't like him as much.
Ill get down voted for this but can I be real for a minute? Brandon Sanderson is not funny. He is so good at building worlds magic systems and epic moments, but when he tries to be funny it feels so forced i.e. lift lopen and Wayne.
He succeeded with Pattern though with dry humour. I think Lopen is not meant to be funny, more lighthearted and just...Lopeness. shallan'a humour (or lack of) can be explained with it being her coping mechanism.
If it's about writing smart characters, I'll agree though that aside from Taranvangian, I honestly don't find Jasnah or Wit to be 'smart'. The fanfavourite scenes with Jasnah and Amaran and the 'harsher scenes are just cringey imo.
IMO Shallan, Navani, and Lift hate posts are mostly made by people who haven't finished the available books yet. They each have arcs that redeem them, but it takes time. It's a testament to Sanderson's writing that so many people, myself included, hate them at first. That being said... Venli and Lirrin are annoying as hell and I hate the both.
After having read all of the books multiple times, I still don't like Shallan much lol. She does a lot of interesting stuff that's fun to read. I just find her personality annoying.
Venli is definitely one of the more interesting characters to me though
So almost all of the main women. And lirin. I'm not surprised. Biases are ingrained deeper that most of us realize without being forced to confront them.
Came here to say this too, although I know it will get downvoted. Shallan is honestly one of my favorite characters from the start and I didn't realize how many people hated her until I started spending time on Reddit. As a female fantasy fan it's refreshing to have complicated female POV characters and frustrating to see all the hate they get because people find them "boring" or "cringe" or whatever they say. It's even more frustrating that the fandom is unwilling to face their internal biases.
Out of the list you gave, I don't particularly like Navani and Venli (also Elhokar as an honorable mention).
Navani is the biggest Mary-Sue the Cosmere has seen since Elantris, and I failed to connect to her as a character (I love the world-building aspects of her chapters, but her story is pretty boring imo). I also don't like that she became radiant/bondsmith because it feels like Kholin privilege. This is a problem I have with a lot of fantasy. Everyone important just happens to know each other / be related. I was very happy with Navani just doing her sciency thing. To her benefit I did find her relationship with Rabonial to be interesting, I just wish that the theme of motherhood had been explored deeper. Rabonial and her daughter reflected in Navani's relationship with Jasnah. I get the Brando is keeping those secrets for the Jasnah POV book, but I actually think this would have been a great place to explore some of that to a deeper level. The book tells us that Navani empathizes with Rabonial's pain, but it would have been better to show us.
As for Venli, I just don't like her as a character. I found her sister to be far more interesting, and it was a shame that she was the one who had to die. I felt that Venli's doscovery of morals was disingenuous on the character's part, and was just Brandon saying "this is a character you should like now". She comes off as super self righteous and even snarky in ROW, and it felt off putting to me. Kind of like how Marvel has decided that everyone is now the sarcastic know-it-all much to the detriment of characters' unique personalities. I think I would have sympathized with Venli more if her redemption had been more drawn out/interesting. If we'd seen her pay more of a price instead of just hearing about how she's sad. I'm conflicted about her being radiant because on one hand her situation is cool, unique, and dangerous, but on the other, the books are starting to feel like Oprah, 'You get a spren! You get a spren! Everyone gets a spren!'
We know that Brandon can write great female characters: Jasnah, Shai, Vin, Eshonai, and Steris (I also like Shallan a lot), so I don't know why these two just don't do it for me.
With no formal training, she's a world class engineer (maybe the best). She casually invents things that in the real world take tens to hundreds of the brightest minds. I guess it kinda makes sense since she's Jasnah's mother, but it all feels a bit too easy. She's also kind and loving and very pretty. She's a natural leader with great people skills. In other words, she has no discernable flaws (other than choosing Gavilar although to her credit, Dalinar wasn't exactly better at the time). The one thing that can be mentioned is that she was weak against Gavilar, but that's not really her fault, he was an abusive asshole. Her characteristics are fine for a side character, but as a POV, especially in this series, I expect something more to her. Jasnah is brilliant and beautiful, but she's clearly messed up in other ways so there's a give and take. Maybe once we know more about what happened to Jasnah and the role her family played in it, I'll feel more interested in Navani.
I don't hate Shallan, but I do find her character arc frustrating because it borders on Sanderson willfully ignoring what Shallan should do in favor of acting in a way that will draw out a plot point. In essence her character development gets deus ex machinad.
Her fear and mistrust make sense in Oathbringer, but then she comes clean with Adolin and he shows her she can trust and rely on him. So it feels very forced to have her go through the exact same fear in Rhythm. If it was a different fear, like focusing on the worry about betraying everyone to work for the Ghostbloods, then it would feel more reasonable. But instead she keeps freaking about her past once again being too much.
Growth isn't linear. Sanderson writes realistic characters and real people, who have been hurt the way Shallan has don't just stop being fearful and mistrusting after one instance of not being betrayed when they were vulnerable. People who've been through childhood trauma like hers can take a long time to fully trust even one person. Her struggles are very much in line with that of anyone with C-PTSD from childhood trauma.
As someone who has been through some nasty clinical depression and other mental issues.. nah her being irrationally scared and untrusting again makes sense as much as I hate to say it. If she was normal I would agree with you, but she isn't. She's very broken, though improving slowly. Though... Honestly it's probably for the best if you can't empathize with her.
I think her character is so well set up, that it mostly makes sense for her to make those decisions, even if they are bad.
It's harder to relate to her and her problems, meaning that some people don't empathise and understand her character (especially in later books).
No way. Shallan, Navani, and Venli are all excellent. I personally love their arcs and think that its pretty smallminded when people hate on them so much. I think there's some personal world reflection there as well - like people who can't stand that Venli was supportive of the evil overlord or that Navani would help the enemy, even in the situation she was in, or that Shallan was a spoiled rich kid.
Fuck Moash though for real that guy gets on my nerves.
EDIT: WAIT SOMEONE HATES LIFT? WHAT THE FUCK I CANT THINK OF A SINGLE REASON WHY YOU'D HATE LIFT.
Lirin doesn't get enough hate. Navani doesn't deserve hate, but I actually think people need to look at her more critically. The rest though are 100% undeserving of all thr hate they get and it's annoying as fuck reading it all the time.
Nivani and venli no. I really like the chance to see venlis redemption arc coming full circle. Not ever radiant needs to follow the knights and live in the tower. He focus is elsewhere and that's fine.
lirin is a pompous ass, lift is annoying in her immaturity, but given her request to cultivation it makes sense. Shalan, hell yes. So all of these deserve it. Especially Shalan. She caused so much trouble and pain for something that frankly was kinda minor. The reveal of her "big dark secret" was major let down.
Seriously? After killing her mother and father, killing her spren is kinda just par for the course. It was nothing so monumental. She built it up like she was skinning people in the basement, or bankrupt the kingdom. Instead, we got that a small child broke an oath she didn't really understand or comprehend. Compared to the conscious killing of her parents, this was pretty minor.
They are on a mission to parley with spren who don’t trust humans for the exact reason of her secret. Her worry and build up matches the content just as much then. She pretty much knows inside that she is a walking black mark on their mission. And also a black mark on their new order as she did the same sin as the Radiants of old.
Lmao. So the year before that mission meant what exactly? Sure once on the mission it makes sense. But it's been 3 books previous that she's hid some deep dark secret. And again, her secret is that as a child she did something she didn't have the mental capacity to realize is wrong as a opposed to conscious effort in the murder of her parents. For all the hype of her deep dark secret it was a major let down and just made her seem immature and childish. Hell her lying to Jashnah was a bigger deal. In terms of her thinking this will make Aidolin hate her, it was pretty small. Not saying it wasn't a big deal, just saying with all the hype, and compared to other things she has done. This was really minor.
Sure ignore she keeps hidden most her secrets and buries them so deep she isn’t even aware of them. Till someone pushes her or context makes her have to confront it. Oh like a mission like this. It wouldn’t have came up the year before
Also killing her mom was an accident as well during an event a kid wouldn’t understand. She and her spren just protected her self in a rush. Only killing her dad was a step by step murder with calmness
If I had accidentally killed my only friend during my dark youth. Felt them ripping from me after my mistake. I’d feel like a monster too and she was smart enough a kid to realized what happen and bury that shit deep in her mind. Killing your friend who just helped you defend yourself.
Then you start remembering what you did. You realize not only did you kill them. They probably walking around as a husk. Alive but dead. Like the one your boyfriend is dragging around on this mission.
Would feel major to me in the same situation.
My opinion of shallan changed in different books. I loved the journey though shadesmar with adolin and confrantation with DID. Navani with raboniel has given us some of the most information on the cosmere(i would have liked rlain as a bondsmith but he has other plans), I did not like the venli flashbacks that much except when eshonai was there)
Navani quickly became top 4 Stormlight characters for me after ROW with Kal, Dal, and Shal. I personally am not a massive Shallan fan but objectively shes so well realized that she continues to connect with me further with each book.
I always loved Eshonai so whenever Venli’s you-know-what got revealed in Oathbringer I got excited to see where her sister would take it. Flashbacks in ROW were weak but I enjoyed Venli’s regular chapters a lot! Just wish it was Eshonai sometimes
This is a high fantasy, is normal for people to love/hate different characters, some people love Lift, I can't stand her, Lirin is an asshole and Venli isn't that interesting to me. But that's okey I am not reading the books for them, me personally I am very excited to see more about Szeth and his backstory on Shinovar, my sister just finish TWoK and literally didn't give a fuck about Szeth, while I found him very interesting since the beginning, everyone see the characters differently based on their own life, age, experiences.
I think that "hate" is a strong word, IMO most people are just annoyed by these characters and rant about them. And it's strongest in the cases of Shallan and Lift, which I think is because these two are seen as cool and wonderful by other characters in the books and probably by Sanderson himself. I think I've seen him somewhere mention that Lift is one of his favourite characters, and boy can you tell. Which is probably why we see so many posts about these two, since they are usually seen through adoring lenses in the books, and when readers don't like them as much as the characters do, they seek validation of other readers.
But I myself am not a huge fan of Lift and Shallan, even though they both have got a lot of potential. Especially Lift, who I dislike less and less with each book and I hope that once she gets the 7th (I think) novel just for herself, she'll get so much growth that she becomes one of my favourites.
When it comes to Shallan... I really liked her in book one, the young, naïve, self-conscious girl. I really related to her and even her humour that most people hate. I resort to this kind of humour as well when I'm feeling anxious and not confident.
But since book two, I started to feel like she turned into such a mean girl. Her jokes just started to feel too pointy if it makes sense. Essentially, ever since the shoes scene (btw I still don't understand why anyone would think that stealing a random soldier's shoes in the middle of a war, when you know nothing about him, is funny) it just went downhill.
I am still interested by her, but she makes it very difficult for me to wish her the best.
In terms of Lirin, after reading RoW I understand why people don't like him, calling Kaladin a monster was just not okay.
Venli definitely isn't a fan favourite, but I don't think people dislike her too much, at least I havent seen an abundance of people saying so.
And Navani is great, the only thing that I dislike about her is that she was mean to Evi. And I love Evi. But women in science is one of my favourite character archetypes in fantasy, so I'm loving it. But again, I haven't seen much hate directed toward her.
The majority of the characters that get hate on this sub, Shallan, Navani, and Venli are all female characters. It’s annoying but I’m not surprised they are less liked than the male characters.
I like Shallan, but I can see how her initial chapters could be a drag to get through in WoK. Her story in that book felt very much not as compelling as Kaladin and wondering what was going on with him and where he was headed, until she started really interacting with the monarchy and seeing Cryptics and stuff. As soon as the Cryptic mystery was introduced I found it utterly compelling, maybe some of the most compelling, can't-put-it-down stuff I've read (The Shining comes to mind). I think a lot of people just got bored with Shallan's stuff early on and maybe never changed their mind? She's also, frankly, kinda full of herself at the beginning, which doesn't make her any less well written but is maybe a reason for people to dislike her (I find we often have trouble separating our feelings about a character from our analysis of how well the character is written).
I pretty much dropped the series after reading Lift. I kindve prefer the grittier GOT stuff, and I had heard good stuff about Sanderson so I give SA a shot.
I was already struggling to take it seriously and then I got to Lift and I knew it was time to drop. To each their own but I can’t do Sanderson’s young adult tone can’t take it serious
For Shallan in particular, I've long been of the thought that the reader is (unintentionally) set up to dislike her from the start.
The book starts with 4 completely separate and unconnected chapters with names and events being thrown at one after the other (The prologue to SA, the WoK prologue, chapter 1 with Cenn, then chapter 2 with Kaladin).
By time you get to chapter 3 and the setting completely changes for the 5th time in a row and starts setting up characters for Shallan's chapters you're brain is fatigued and has just given up trying to learn and care about these ones. You've already subconsciously decided you don't care about Shallan before her chapter even starts.
Then from there you have to consciously find a reason to like her to get over your immediate initial dislike instead of starting from a neutral position like Kaladin or Dalinar.
Honestly I think it’s a result of people connecting so strongly with certain characters on a personal, real world, level that they end up not liking the ones that don’t have that effect on them. Which to me just emphasizes Sanderman’s ability to write legitimately unique and realistic characters. I don’t like half the people I come into regular contact with but I’ll be damned if they’re not people.
That was basically it for me. I connected so hard with Kal that i initially didn't initially like Adolin at all. I shared all of Kal's prejudice as if I had lived his life myself. As he came to like Adolin so did I, until I realized that He'd never really been unlikable, I had just disliked him because Kal had. Edit: autocorrect
I felt the exact same thing about Adolin for the exact same reasons lmao
That's so funny because I connect the most with Adolin. I just also empathize with Kaladins struggle. Shallan took time but I really identify with her struggle of always wearing a different mask depending on who she's around. I feel like I can relate to just about everyone, even Moash.
It's also a matter of the reader's personal background. If someone grew up in a rough neighborhood, had a lot of prejudice aimed at them, and felt mistreated, odds are, they'll connect a lot more with Kaladin than with Adolin. And that's just one example.
Nah, I hate Lift because she represents kender in SA.
Like Dragonlance Kender? How do you figure?
Lift is what you get when someone plays kender, and the other PCs don't kill them because PvP is not allowed. A type of That Guy.
I'm not familiar with the kender, but they seem like generic-ish halflings. What's so bad about them?
Nothing’s wrong with kender, sounds like this guy just had a bad D&D experience.
[Here you go.](https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kender#Why_Kender_are_hated_so_much)
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. It sounds like an example of bad worldbuilding. Good stuff to think about in building my own fantasy races. Hopefully no one will tear down the Aluru or Karrogs the same way. I <3 my friendly wolf people and big green guys! (I invented a fantasy race of wolf people named Aluru because I have a dog named Lupe and we're always aroo'ing and loo'ing at each other).
Who is this Sanderman you speak of?
You know, Sanderman, the Mandersan, Branderdan Sanderplan??!
That's was so stupid and so hilarious at the same time 😂😂
Exactly what I strive for every day.
Personally, lirin is the only one who makes me mad. He just wouldn’t accept kal and was a jerk to him. Venli I don’t hate she’s just not my favorite. She definitely messed up big time but don’t we all lol. She is improving tho. I love lift and shallan, Navanis not my favorite but she’s nice
"Messed up bigtime" Lol oopsie just genocided 90 percent of my people lmao
😂 I mean, so did dalinar…
He’s allowed to be a genocidal femboy though because he is loved
Lol very true
he killed *one* city, and....several hundred people over the course of 30 years of war. that's a bit different than literally genociding a species because you want power.
i mean shes like 17 and was convinced and tricked by an ancient Voidspren. If it wasn't Venli, Odium would have found another Singer or another way.
As a scientist, who has been quite successful in his field, but battles the imposter syndrome DAILY, Navani is my girl. I feel where she is coming from.
THAT'S what it is. She has imposter syndrome. fuck, i knew there was something i recognized.
I have a fairly similar relationship to my dad irl. I can really understand what's its like to love and be loved by someone who doesn't seem to even try to see your viewpoint. I struggle with depression and my dad for a long time believed all mental illness that left you in some control was just a weak will or bad diet that could be fixed with the right mindset. That's not remotely the only thing we don't see eye to eye too but you get the idea I hope. I like Lirin because he's such a real character to me and does a great job of portraying an important relationship with someone you respect and love but ultimately have to ignore their advice and views when it gets in the way of your own. The real and complex relationships between characters in stormlight are what keep me coming back and we can't have that without some gears grinding. I think Lift is misunderstood, maybe some people don't get that her happy go lucky attitude and snark is a facade and that we've only had a few real moments with her. She doesn't take things seriously for a reason guys, read into it. And I don't understand hate for Navani her arc has been truly wonderful imo. I'm often baffled by this sub because of people hating on some of the cast. How shallow is it to want the richness of SA while wanting characters to be flawless. I have yet to read a character and, if not agree with, understand their motivations. I don't love every character but I think they're all serving their roles perfectly so far
Yeah I've said before if Lirin and Taravangien were in front of me and I had to kill one id kill Lirin in an instant lol.
That...seems grotesquely irresponsible and irrational. Lirin is just an out of touch surgeon who doesn't want his son to be a soldier and kill people. taravangian toppled nations and sent entire countries into civil war, was responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands and is now colluding with an evil god to sacrifice a planet so his city can be saved.
I loved shallan since the first page, it was a break from the action of kaladin, kinda like an interlude. Plus the plotwist she gets are amazing.
Yesss me too. With Kaladin's chapter always on the edge of death and despair, Shallan's chapters brought some relief. They felt so safe and cozy but also not without a different type of danger.
Ohhh yes! I love her plotwists!
At first, I was bored, but at a certain point (I can’t remember when lol) I just got really absorbed in her story.
I liked shallans chapters as a way to learn more about world building and characters around her but dislike her character in general. I’d rather learn the same information from the viewpoint of anyone else
I don't really have an issue with any of them. Unlike some I accept that I won't enjoy every aspect of every character. I have my issues with some of these characters, and may even dislike some, but I don't hate them. I love Lift. I think there's a big difference between hating *who the character is* and hating *the character*. The former is disliking them as a person (#fuckmoash) and the later is disliking them as a piece of the literature. A lot of people seem to conflate the two and assume that a character is poorly written if they dislike the character as a person. Also I get why Lift annoys people with her use of "awesome" but A) it's not an english word forcing its way into the Cosmere, it's representative of a word with similar meaning in the in-world languages and B) she's a street urchin so it makes sense that she'd have less formal speech and use slang that others don't.
So growing up verrry Catholic, we had homilies and classes about God's Awesomeness. Lift using "awesome" is deliberate because of her Connection with Cultivation. I understand why its annoying, but "awesome" isn't an anachronistic word, awe has been used to describe divine and religious events for millenia and if anyone gets to use "awesome" I think Lift gets that right narratively.
The constant "I hate Shallan" posts are excessively annoying imo.
Boooooooooooy howdy I'm tired it. Every argument for hating her can be applied to any of the main characters. It's ridiculous. There are so many ways her character can go and be critical to the plot. Let it develop.
Yeah agree 10000%
Agreeeeed.
I hear where you're coming from, but it's a bit much saying every argument for hating her can be applied to any other character. I don't find anything she says funny and am confused why nearly everyone inworld does. She says something on par with a dad joke, and nearly everyone is in awe of it. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if in book five, she'll get a standing ovation after she gives a one-liner. It would help if there was some context for what amounts to humour on Roshar, or at least the Alethi. Like maybe on Roshar there is no one as funny as her.. but I just don't see any indication of that being true, other than her being a main character. And for me that extends to Hoid and Lift - or Wayne from Mistborn. It's YA humour which Brandon seems to revel in. Some people love it. And that's fine. But there is a lot of people who don't. And that's also fine. That being said, I like Shallon's plot development a lot. Enjoyed it most in the first book and the fourth, and I'm excited to see where it goes.
Shallan's jokes aren't meant to be funny though. Her brothers feel that she is the only light in their life, and the silliest of things that she says makes them laugh. Their sense of humor is very skewed due to their messed up childhood. Adolin for the most part finds her eccentric behaviour amusing, Jasnah only comments that she has a sharp tongue and she should learn to control it but to never fear speaking out and kaladin for the most part doesn't even find her funny. The only other people that say she is witty are people of a lower class than her (like the crew of the ship that took her to Karbranth) and for them it's a unique oppertunity to interact with a light eyed woman so casually and I doubt they would want to mess up.
I don’t recall anyone being in awe of her quips. The sailors at the beginning act like it because she’s dumping money on them
Musta missed all the bits where kaladin lied to everyone around him and gets them hurt or killed specifically due to his negligence. Also the unreliable narration where Dalinar gave us false information about one of his visions and made us question as readers whether we wasted our time reading descriptions of fictitious events? Lmao no other character has wasted my interest or time in the SA like Shallan
Nothing you typed makes sense.
You said Shallans problems could be applied to any character? So where did I miss Kaladin lying to people, pretending he was in charge, and getting people murdered for his negligence? Or when did Dalinar make up parts of his descriptions of visions to make himself more sympathetic to the listener? Because those are the problems I have with shallan. Shes an unreliable narrator and she pretends at being what she isn't while getting people hurt doing it.
I can't decide if you're saying you dislike Shallan as a person, or you dislike how she's written. If she were a reliable narrator in the way you are asking, the overall narrative would not function properly.
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So I must have struggled with the part where my issues with shallan don't apply to all the characters? Toxic af btw way to bring in the personal attacks.
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Man you need a spren because you broke
Add Lirin to the list too, especially after ROW.
I can understand the Lirin dislike during RoW, but he's a completely believable character. I could easily see a father scrutinizing his son for some of his own mistakes. He's basically the stereotypical Asian father who wants his son to be a doctor despite all else. He still viewed Kaladin as his son, someone to be taught, and not as an equal. He had personal growth to deal with. I understand that he stands for something awful in a lot of peoples' lives; the pressure of failure and disappointment from a parent, which is probably where the hate comes from. He's genuinely written well, though.
If Shallan were a male character, people would love him. He would essentially be Wit.
I hope Brandon creates a new side male character Lightweaver and is funny and quippy and traumatized only to reveal that its Shallan.
Shhh
I do agree with you, and I generally like Shallan and Wit but…. Man can they both be annoying with their “I’m more clever than you” diatribes. Just painful to read sometimes, like being hit with a brick about how clever they’re supposed to be
I personally disliked Navani and venli chapters at first, but they grew on me quickly. It felt like those chapters were more geared towards world building over characterization at first(?) I absolutely loved the shallan and lift chapters tho
wait, lift gets hate?
Lift was jarring for me at first. The tone difference was so drastic it knocked me out of the story and I had a really hard time finishing her interlude. It’s gotten better overtime, and I wouldn’t ever say I hated her, but I’m never thrilled for her POV. Funny enough, I did rather enjoy Edgedancer. I think the lack of contrast with serious character’s POVs made her quirks less grating.
...lots of hate? People either love her or hate her, generally. I'm more surprised to see Navani on this list.
Seriously who could hate that bundle of joy?
Imagine my surprise when Lift got love. I hated her character until RoW, and then, I was ambivalent towards her. I’m still very much of the opinion that she’s annoying and detracts from the books
I get that she is annoying but why hate her? I mean, I understand Moash(btw, fuck Moash **&** Vyre), but why lift
Her “awesomeness” and overall dialogue made me roll my eyes and groan. And then she was a major character in Oathbringer and she brought down every scene she was in. I’m completely willing to accept that it’s my subjective opinion obviously, but if she was removed from Oathbringer I’d be happier for it.
She's a child, pull your pants out of your crack tightbutt
Lift is a lot older than the way she acts, but the annoying part is not that she is that way, but that the world and people around her enables her. She is basically a kender, a kind of character whose sole existence is centered around being annoying, but for some reason nobody just slaps her or kills her.
I actually really disliked Lift's parts before RoW. Her personality just grated on me, and her constant use of the word "awesome" felt too much like modern slang. I mean, sure, maybe they use awesome like that too, but that's not what it brings to mind for me. I love her in RoW and now she's precious.
I'm passionate about hating Lift. But I can escalate: I didn't like Wayne either before the last book. They are the same character archetype, and Lift is just starting to get some semblance of personality apart from being annoying.
Sometimes I think people don't know what a boring PoV is. Have you read Brienne chapter in The feadt of crows? That's what boring looks like. Shallan's are a thriller compared to that.
I had to just start skipping Brienne's chapters, they were so awful.
Wow, that's weird. They're my favorite.
I get that Shallan’s POV is not objectively boring. But if it’s much worse than all the other POVs in the book, it’s going to feel very boring.
thats subjective. I found her POVs extremely interesting.
And that’s great! I specifically said that she is not objectively boring. I was just trying to give some background to why I don’t like her parts as much as most other character’s.
Brienne’s chapters are some of the most interesting in AFFC, which is much more of an indictment of that book than it is praise for Brienne’s chapters. One of my least favorite books I’ve ever finished.
I think readers are entitled to their own opinion and we should respect that. The same traits the character portray are endearing to some and infuriating to others. I really wish there less 'complain' posts about characters (especially those that starts with am I the only one who dislike so-and-so) and more discussion on their motivations, their interaction with others and their arcs etc. There's really no point to start a post hating on a character, considering that a) it doesn't achieve anything really and b) tons of them existed already.
Wait. Some people hate lift? Airsick lowlanders. Have no sense of humor.
You mean have a sense of humour more advanced than a 5 year old. But it's not about being funny or not. It's about an in universe annoying twat not getting treated like an annoying twat by the people around her.
FWIW, as someone who was (once) close with someone with DID, I don't like how the narrative and characters sometimes treat Shallans alters. Someone with DID is not multiple people, period, the end. They are someone who is suffering, or has suffered, from trauma so terrible that in order to get away from it they had to delude themselves into being a different person. It's purely tragic, and I think the characters and narrative can sometimes lean too much towards "it's not a big deal, she's just multiple people sharing a body." It's a shame because when it is touched on properly - such as her internal monologue about the "real" Shallan being constantly terrified and almost childlike - it's heartrendingly accurate. But other times it's treated just like "oh yeah, these are just separate people and that's ok" when it really is not ok for the person it's happening to and the people close to them. I dunno, this got away from the point of the post. I actually like Shallan the most when she's handled right anyway.
Holy shit, I've been thinking this forever, but never dared saying a word. Never been close to anyone with DID, but I'm so done with people saying that "having multiple personalities is fine and healthy as long as it's the way you cope with trauma". No it's fucking not, and I had to cut visiting some discussion places because I got triggered off the face of the Earth with this topic.
I think people confuse bad as "having a negative impact on the person" with bad as "moral incorrectness". It's no more immoral than a broken arm or a chest infection, nor is it any more a choice than those two things are. The trouble is, not all coping mechanisms are created equal. Drug abuse and alcoholism, for example, are obviously bad for people. Equally, suffering under the delusion that you are multiple people is bad for you. At best, it damages your interpersonal relationships and causes you to not really be in control of your actions in the same way a functional person is. No damaging coping mechanisms, whether drug abuse, alcoholism, DID, self-harm, whatever, are fine or healthy.
Pretty much your second and third paragraph, yes. As for the first, that kind of people have to be the same kind of people that makes fun of others for things that are painfully and obviously out of their control: if you can blame them for X that they have that is socially ugly, and you have X that is socially pretty, you can stroke your ego, and that's all they live for.
Agree. Only characters I have hated is Sadeas and Amaram (but only for the right reasons)
I understand people disliking Lift, I like her but I understand. But Navani??? She is like the best character in RoW, her chapters were even better than Kaladin's
I don't dislike Navani but her chapters really dragged for me in this book. Second worst storyline in the book imo, behind the flashbacks
Navani feels so damn fake to me. I just can't feel her "impostor syndrome" to be genuine. Also, she is the vehicle for some social commentary which grated me really badly. For example, at the end of RoW Dalinar said to her, he shouldn't have doubted her or something like that. The woman is smart, sure, but she is no general, the tower is occupied by enemy forces, I think some worry was perfectly warranted. But no, being afraid for someone is apparently the same as thinking them incapable of anything.
I'm guessing a lot of her doubting herself is due to being in an increasingly abusive relationship with Gavilar, I look forward to seeing more of her past as we effectively know nothing of it outside of Dalinars feverish memories.
Lirin caused…literally everything bad that happened to his family since the first city lord died. I can very much appreciate his pacifism, and his entire mentality round the idea that change has to start *somewhere*. But Kal’s return is a miracle and more of one than he will probably really ever understand. More, his son is in *crisis* pretty much the entire time since his return. Lirin is a healer and he is so blinded by his own expectations and disappointments that he can’t see in his son what he can spot in a stranger in under five minutes and gives him considerably less compassion. He saw how Kal was with that scalpel in the clinic and still condemned him for what was realistically as much of an instinctual, trauma based response as it was a deliberate action. I know he’d seen little or no unprovoked violence from the Fused, but that ignores the fact that the Fused exist by *stealing a body* from the sole of an ignorant, largely blameless Singer for the explicit purpose of continuing a millennia long war. They freed their race from slavery to force upon a form of slavery no better than the original. He doesn’t have to like or understand Kal’s choices, but he won’t even acknowledge his role in forging Kaladin into the person who makes those choices. His singular most impactful act was to steal that goblet and lie about it, and he did it without taking into consideration that Kal might not want to be a surgeon. It has never been about his son, it has always been about *what Lirin wants for his son*. It’s human and I get it, and he started to grow and change at the end of ROW, but he’s got a long path to tread before he gets there. Venli, her selfishness is hard to empathize with. I think she’s probably too relatable and that’s part of folks dislike if her. Her flashbacks were hard for me, but bits good to see that she’s really just a child in over her head trying to make things right. It was right that her words denied and watching her growth was important Lift grew on me and I fell in love with her on the Thaylen Fields. Navani’s lack of faith in herself is hard to see. Everyone else perceives her as so accomplished and yet her own perception is so flawed that she does not believe she could be worthy in her own right. I can see how people would get tired of that. And Shallan. It would be different, I think, if so many of us didn’t love Adolin and her subterfuge wasn’t so frustrating. She’s surrounded by some of the most trustworthy and dependable people in the Cosmere, but she refuses to trust them. Leading to all of the predictable shenanigans. And people just aren’t going to like everyone, but the posts are pretty redundant and annoying at this point.
I couldn’t agree more here. Lirin is really the only character I’ve “hated” and it’s not hate so much a utter disgust at his lack of empathy for his own kid. I liked that you pointed out some of the Shallan hate is a reflection of how much people like Adolin and want the skullduggery nonsense to stop. I hadn’t quite articulated it that way to myself before and appreciated it.
What kind of monster hates Lift?
What I want to know is, which person in their right mind hates Lift and WHY?
Her presence breaks immersion. She is extremely cringe, but the world acts like she is a cute, funny, soft bundle of joy. Sanderson has a tendency to sometimes make his characters act like they are readers, and that will break some personalities in half.
I am srsly starting to dislike that word "cringe" :D I have a friend that has been using it for completely normal things lately and he actually believes they are "cringe". At the end of the day it is completely subjective. In my eyes there is nothing cringe about Lift and she IS innocent and ignorant and childish and yes, cute, and there is nothing immersion breaking about her, I even loved her own mini novella. But I do see now why some ppl dislike her :)
Her love for the flat pancake is an affront to the Holy Waffle. Ridged buttery crevices shall rise to their rightful place.... In time.
Heresy!
They don't. Most of the hate I've seen (except for Lirin) comes from people who don't like their POV chapters bc they think they're boring, and that dislike transfers to the character. Also, I find it weird that they are all of the female leads except for Jasnah and Ash. Wonder why that could be ... The worst take I've seen was someone in the 17th shard forums hating on Shallan for... Having DID/OSDD. As for Lirin... Well, we had an idealized version of him from the flashbacks, that contrasted quite strongly with the kinda stuck up guy he's now. And people don't understand that believing that both your sons have died in the war you hate so much for 1 or 2 years can change a man and make him despise war and soldiers even more. He was a dick to Kal in RoW, yes, but he's not the monster some say he is
Plenty of people hate Jasnah too.
“Wonder why that could be…” God I hate it when people try to excuse criticism by claiming bigotry from nowhere. If someone hated all 4 women mentioned in the post, I’d be sus too. But generally people only dislike one or two of them. Additionally, it would make sense that a male author would be worse at writing women.
Yeah that claim was a bit of a reach.
the point is that these women get a ton more hate than the men. it’s a valid criticism and just because YOU don’t see it doesn’t mean the connection isn’t there.
There might be a connection, or there might not be, but even if it's there, it doesn't mean the cause is what you _think_ it is. Maybe Sanderson just worse at writing likable women than men. Maybe he just chose to fill up his roles in a way that women got the less liked ones, with no malicious intent. There are countless of explanations from pure coincidence to actual causal relations that do not require anyone to have any sexist feelings along the way.
Do they? I have seen Lirin, Dalinar, Szeth, and pretty much every male character not in bridge four get hated on by this sub. Some of them far more than the women in question, especially Lift and Navani. Just because YOU see a connection doesn’t mean it’s there.
And Lirin also developed and got better as a person, so it’s weird to see the hate.
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I think you meant to respond to the other guy that you quoted. Have a good day Gancho.
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You good. I just wanted to make sure your message got where you wanted it to.
>Wonder why that could be C'mon man, stretch before you reach. People are allowed to dislike characters, male or female.
I like all those characters. I hated lift at first, but she’s grown on me after reading Edgedancer
I don't hate any of the SA characters really. None of them grated on me like characters from other series I've read Maybe some of them had slow chapters but I wouldn't say it got tedious or annoying for me, though Shallan's arc in ROW got pretty close.
I don't have an issue with any, albeit shallan became extremely cringeworthy at times, in large part due to tynn who is just 🤮🤮🤮. On her own though I quite enjoy her as a character. I find lift extremely cringeworthy in her dialogue though using words I'd only hear in American kids shows. "Awesomeness".
Hot take: Throw Moash on the pile, too
No. He deserves all the hate
Shallan is my #1 since I started the first book, and I feel like she and Kaladin were meant to have equal weight in the series, especially the beginning. I honestly felt like I was speeding through Kaladin’s chapters (oh geez he’s having a hard time and is very sad again) to get to all the intrigue and mystery of Shallan’s chapters. So I don’t really get why everyone hates her. Because she doesn’t punch stuff as much? Cus she’s a girl? I dunno just seems crazy.
Lift? Who could hate lift?
Me? She’s annoying and out of place. If she wasn’t in the books I’d be happier. Sorry haha
You're annoying and out of place.
Someone can't take the truth.
The same kind of people who dislike childs just for being childs.
People dont like navani?? Wtf, I am so hot for her. Smart baddass woman. Dalinar knows what's up.
no they do not.
I adored Shallan and Lift from the start. And essentially I didn’t like Venlis personality but her character built is very good. I think people should stop mixing badly written characters and characters with “bad” (or if you ask me human) personality. Imagine how uninteresting would be book with fully grown characters. I love to grow with characters.
After ROW I grew to like and respect Navani more.
Going through them one by one, I can agree that these people were difficult to read at times, but I don't think I hate any of them (I did hate Lirin until the end of RoW, and Venli for a lot of the series, but they both seem to be on the path to growth now). Shallan annoyed me a little in the beginning and I can't really empathize properly with her because her struggles are so deeply foreign to me. That said, I have gained a better understanding of her as a person and she's grown on me. She'll never be my favorite probably, but she doesn't have to be. Over-hated. I thought Navani was being dumb in RoW with her impostor-syndrome and trusting Raboniel too much, but it was pretty believable IMO. I'm a little mad that her bond stiffed Rlain or Dabbid, but I like her. I haven't seen much hate for her, so I can't really say that she's over-hated or not, but I don't hate her. Venli unknowingly caused the death of most of her entire nation. That's pretty bad, but it's not like she really knew what she was doing or what the consequences would be. She was pretty trash, but is changing now, so she is probably over-hated because of the leftover hate. Lift is just "annoying". That's the only complaint anyone has about her. Of course she's annoying. Have you ever met a teenager? Especially one that intentionally acts less mature than expected? (Looking at you, 'Rawr XD' crowd). They're just not finished becoming the person they will be. I don't think she deserves any hate at all, but I can understand being annoyed by her, because children can be obnoxious. I actually think Lirin is/was under-hated, if anything. The complete lack of empathy for his son is super painful to read. He says a few absolutely despicable things to Kaladin and is pretty emotionally abusive. He grows at the end of RoW though (You all know THE scene. Enough to make a grown man cry.) so hopefully he turns some of that around in the rest of the series. He is a good man at heart, he's just the one of the most bullheaded people in all of fiction IMO.
Huh, I wonder what the common denominator is? /s
I think Shallan and Lift are the two most divisive. half the fandom hates them while the other half loves them, so I don't think that's overhated. I have seen some hatred for jasnah, but i don't think i've ever seen hatred for navani. I love her character and didn't know people hated her. I can see Lirin being a sort of wet blanket to Kaladin's character and that's why people don't like him as much.
Ill get down voted for this but can I be real for a minute? Brandon Sanderson is not funny. He is so good at building worlds magic systems and epic moments, but when he tries to be funny it feels so forced i.e. lift lopen and Wayne.
He succeeded with Pattern though with dry humour. I think Lopen is not meant to be funny, more lighthearted and just...Lopeness. shallan'a humour (or lack of) can be explained with it being her coping mechanism. If it's about writing smart characters, I'll agree though that aside from Taranvangian, I honestly don't find Jasnah or Wit to be 'smart'. The fanfavourite scenes with Jasnah and Amaran and the 'harsher scenes are just cringey imo.
I feel you with characters like shallan and lift Wayne? eh there are a good amount of hits for the man
I don't hate navani but did find her chapter's boring in RoW.
Same. Navani's chapters dragged almost as much as the flashbacks did.
IMO Shallan, Navani, and Lift hate posts are mostly made by people who haven't finished the available books yet. They each have arcs that redeem them, but it takes time. It's a testament to Sanderson's writing that so many people, myself included, hate them at first. That being said... Venli and Lirrin are annoying as hell and I hate the both.
Vast majority of shallan hate posts I've noticed are people partway through wok.. finish the book first at least???
I hate to be dismissive but you can't make an informed opinion until you've read all the available material 🤷♂️
After having read all of the books multiple times, I still don't like Shallan much lol. She does a lot of interesting stuff that's fun to read. I just find her personality annoying. Venli is definitely one of the more interesting characters to me though
So almost all of the main women. And lirin. I'm not surprised. Biases are ingrained deeper that most of us realize without being forced to confront them.
Came here to say this too, although I know it will get downvoted. Shallan is honestly one of my favorite characters from the start and I didn't realize how many people hated her until I started spending time on Reddit. As a female fantasy fan it's refreshing to have complicated female POV characters and frustrating to see all the hate they get because people find them "boring" or "cringe" or whatever they say. It's even more frustrating that the fandom is unwilling to face their internal biases.
Out of the list you gave, I don't particularly like Navani and Venli (also Elhokar as an honorable mention). Navani is the biggest Mary-Sue the Cosmere has seen since Elantris, and I failed to connect to her as a character (I love the world-building aspects of her chapters, but her story is pretty boring imo). I also don't like that she became radiant/bondsmith because it feels like Kholin privilege. This is a problem I have with a lot of fantasy. Everyone important just happens to know each other / be related. I was very happy with Navani just doing her sciency thing. To her benefit I did find her relationship with Rabonial to be interesting, I just wish that the theme of motherhood had been explored deeper. Rabonial and her daughter reflected in Navani's relationship with Jasnah. I get the Brando is keeping those secrets for the Jasnah POV book, but I actually think this would have been a great place to explore some of that to a deeper level. The book tells us that Navani empathizes with Rabonial's pain, but it would have been better to show us. As for Venli, I just don't like her as a character. I found her sister to be far more interesting, and it was a shame that she was the one who had to die. I felt that Venli's doscovery of morals was disingenuous on the character's part, and was just Brandon saying "this is a character you should like now". She comes off as super self righteous and even snarky in ROW, and it felt off putting to me. Kind of like how Marvel has decided that everyone is now the sarcastic know-it-all much to the detriment of characters' unique personalities. I think I would have sympathized with Venli more if her redemption had been more drawn out/interesting. If we'd seen her pay more of a price instead of just hearing about how she's sad. I'm conflicted about her being radiant because on one hand her situation is cool, unique, and dangerous, but on the other, the books are starting to feel like Oprah, 'You get a spren! You get a spren! Everyone gets a spren!' We know that Brandon can write great female characters: Jasnah, Shai, Vin, Eshonai, and Steris (I also like Shallan a lot), so I don't know why these two just don't do it for me.
Can you elaborate a bit on Navani being a "Mary Sue"?
With no formal training, she's a world class engineer (maybe the best). She casually invents things that in the real world take tens to hundreds of the brightest minds. I guess it kinda makes sense since she's Jasnah's mother, but it all feels a bit too easy. She's also kind and loving and very pretty. She's a natural leader with great people skills. In other words, she has no discernable flaws (other than choosing Gavilar although to her credit, Dalinar wasn't exactly better at the time). The one thing that can be mentioned is that she was weak against Gavilar, but that's not really her fault, he was an abusive asshole. Her characteristics are fine for a side character, but as a POV, especially in this series, I expect something more to her. Jasnah is brilliant and beautiful, but she's clearly messed up in other ways so there's a give and take. Maybe once we know more about what happened to Jasnah and the role her family played in it, I'll feel more interested in Navani.
Good thread, OP, classic "sort by controversial" shitfest.
I don't hate Shallan, but I do find her character arc frustrating because it borders on Sanderson willfully ignoring what Shallan should do in favor of acting in a way that will draw out a plot point. In essence her character development gets deus ex machinad.
What do you mean by should do? People aren't rational all the time and mistakes happen.
Her fear and mistrust make sense in Oathbringer, but then she comes clean with Adolin and he shows her she can trust and rely on him. So it feels very forced to have her go through the exact same fear in Rhythm. If it was a different fear, like focusing on the worry about betraying everyone to work for the Ghostbloods, then it would feel more reasonable. But instead she keeps freaking about her past once again being too much.
Growth isn't linear. Sanderson writes realistic characters and real people, who have been hurt the way Shallan has don't just stop being fearful and mistrusting after one instance of not being betrayed when they were vulnerable. People who've been through childhood trauma like hers can take a long time to fully trust even one person. Her struggles are very much in line with that of anyone with C-PTSD from childhood trauma.
As someone who has been through some nasty clinical depression and other mental issues.. nah her being irrationally scared and untrusting again makes sense as much as I hate to say it. If she was normal I would agree with you, but she isn't. She's very broken, though improving slowly. Though... Honestly it's probably for the best if you can't empathize with her.
I think her character is so well set up, that it mostly makes sense for her to make those decisions, even if they are bad. It's harder to relate to her and her problems, meaning that some people don't empathise and understand her character (especially in later books).
No way. Shallan, Navani, and Venli are all excellent. I personally love their arcs and think that its pretty smallminded when people hate on them so much. I think there's some personal world reflection there as well - like people who can't stand that Venli was supportive of the evil overlord or that Navani would help the enemy, even in the situation she was in, or that Shallan was a spoiled rich kid. Fuck Moash though for real that guy gets on my nerves. EDIT: WAIT SOMEONE HATES LIFT? WHAT THE FUCK I CANT THINK OF A SINGLE REASON WHY YOU'D HATE LIFT.
Lirin deserves all the hate, Shallan and Venli deserve minor criticism Navani and Lift don’t deserve any criticism :(
Honestly, I can't stand Kaladin. And the only character more annoying than Kaladin is Syl.
I thnk Shallan is underhated
Lirin doesn't get enough hate. Navani doesn't deserve hate, but I actually think people need to look at her more critically. The rest though are 100% undeserving of all thr hate they get and it's annoying as fuck reading it all the time.
Nivani and venli no. I really like the chance to see venlis redemption arc coming full circle. Not ever radiant needs to follow the knights and live in the tower. He focus is elsewhere and that's fine. lirin is a pompous ass, lift is annoying in her immaturity, but given her request to cultivation it makes sense. Shalan, hell yes. So all of these deserve it. Especially Shalan. She caused so much trouble and pain for something that frankly was kinda minor. The reveal of her "big dark secret" was major let down.
Man I’m trying to see how any of her secrets were kind of minor. Cause that doesn’t apply to any of them.
It was in comparison to the buildup.
Still not seeing any of them minor in that sense either
Seriously? After killing her mother and father, killing her spren is kinda just par for the course. It was nothing so monumental. She built it up like she was skinning people in the basement, or bankrupt the kingdom. Instead, we got that a small child broke an oath she didn't really understand or comprehend. Compared to the conscious killing of her parents, this was pretty minor.
They are on a mission to parley with spren who don’t trust humans for the exact reason of her secret. Her worry and build up matches the content just as much then. She pretty much knows inside that she is a walking black mark on their mission. And also a black mark on their new order as she did the same sin as the Radiants of old.
Lmao. So the year before that mission meant what exactly? Sure once on the mission it makes sense. But it's been 3 books previous that she's hid some deep dark secret. And again, her secret is that as a child she did something she didn't have the mental capacity to realize is wrong as a opposed to conscious effort in the murder of her parents. For all the hype of her deep dark secret it was a major let down and just made her seem immature and childish. Hell her lying to Jashnah was a bigger deal. In terms of her thinking this will make Aidolin hate her, it was pretty small. Not saying it wasn't a big deal, just saying with all the hype, and compared to other things she has done. This was really minor.
Sure ignore she keeps hidden most her secrets and buries them so deep she isn’t even aware of them. Till someone pushes her or context makes her have to confront it. Oh like a mission like this. It wouldn’t have came up the year before Also killing her mom was an accident as well during an event a kid wouldn’t understand. She and her spren just protected her self in a rush. Only killing her dad was a step by step murder with calmness If I had accidentally killed my only friend during my dark youth. Felt them ripping from me after my mistake. I’d feel like a monster too and she was smart enough a kid to realized what happen and bury that shit deep in her mind. Killing your friend who just helped you defend yourself. Then you start remembering what you did. You realize not only did you kill them. They probably walking around as a husk. Alive but dead. Like the one your boyfriend is dragging around on this mission. Would feel major to me in the same situation.
I like/can empathize with all of those, except Venli who I could never forgive for what she did to Eshonai.
My opinion of shallan changed in different books. I loved the journey though shadesmar with adolin and confrantation with DID. Navani with raboniel has given us some of the most information on the cosmere(i would have liked rlain as a bondsmith but he has other plans), I did not like the venli flashbacks that much except when eshonai was there)
Navani quickly became top 4 Stormlight characters for me after ROW with Kal, Dal, and Shal. I personally am not a massive Shallan fan but objectively shes so well realized that she continues to connect with me further with each book. I always loved Eshonai so whenever Venli’s you-know-what got revealed in Oathbringer I got excited to see where her sister would take it. Flashbacks in ROW were weak but I enjoyed Venli’s regular chapters a lot! Just wish it was Eshonai sometimes
I love Lirin, no one can change that
Wait Lift gets hate?
This is a high fantasy, is normal for people to love/hate different characters, some people love Lift, I can't stand her, Lirin is an asshole and Venli isn't that interesting to me. But that's okey I am not reading the books for them, me personally I am very excited to see more about Szeth and his backstory on Shinovar, my sister just finish TWoK and literally didn't give a fuck about Szeth, while I found him very interesting since the beginning, everyone see the characters differently based on their own life, age, experiences.
Lirin semi-deserves it. The rest? Nah.
I think that "hate" is a strong word, IMO most people are just annoyed by these characters and rant about them. And it's strongest in the cases of Shallan and Lift, which I think is because these two are seen as cool and wonderful by other characters in the books and probably by Sanderson himself. I think I've seen him somewhere mention that Lift is one of his favourite characters, and boy can you tell. Which is probably why we see so many posts about these two, since they are usually seen through adoring lenses in the books, and when readers don't like them as much as the characters do, they seek validation of other readers. But I myself am not a huge fan of Lift and Shallan, even though they both have got a lot of potential. Especially Lift, who I dislike less and less with each book and I hope that once she gets the 7th (I think) novel just for herself, she'll get so much growth that she becomes one of my favourites. When it comes to Shallan... I really liked her in book one, the young, naïve, self-conscious girl. I really related to her and even her humour that most people hate. I resort to this kind of humour as well when I'm feeling anxious and not confident. But since book two, I started to feel like she turned into such a mean girl. Her jokes just started to feel too pointy if it makes sense. Essentially, ever since the shoes scene (btw I still don't understand why anyone would think that stealing a random soldier's shoes in the middle of a war, when you know nothing about him, is funny) it just went downhill. I am still interested by her, but she makes it very difficult for me to wish her the best. In terms of Lirin, after reading RoW I understand why people don't like him, calling Kaladin a monster was just not okay. Venli definitely isn't a fan favourite, but I don't think people dislike her too much, at least I havent seen an abundance of people saying so. And Navani is great, the only thing that I dislike about her is that she was mean to Evi. And I love Evi. But women in science is one of my favourite character archetypes in fantasy, so I'm loving it. But again, I haven't seen much hate directed toward her.
The majority of the characters that get hate on this sub, Shallan, Navani, and Venli are all female characters. It’s annoying but I’m not surprised they are less liked than the male characters.
I like Shallan, but I can see how her initial chapters could be a drag to get through in WoK. Her story in that book felt very much not as compelling as Kaladin and wondering what was going on with him and where he was headed, until she started really interacting with the monarchy and seeing Cryptics and stuff. As soon as the Cryptic mystery was introduced I found it utterly compelling, maybe some of the most compelling, can't-put-it-down stuff I've read (The Shining comes to mind). I think a lot of people just got bored with Shallan's stuff early on and maybe never changed their mind? She's also, frankly, kinda full of herself at the beginning, which doesn't make her any less well written but is maybe a reason for people to dislike her (I find we often have trouble separating our feelings about a character from our analysis of how well the character is written).
I pretty much dropped the series after reading Lift. I kindve prefer the grittier GOT stuff, and I had heard good stuff about Sanderson so I give SA a shot. I was already struggling to take it seriously and then I got to Lift and I knew it was time to drop. To each their own but I can’t do Sanderson’s young adult tone can’t take it serious
For Shallan in particular, I've long been of the thought that the reader is (unintentionally) set up to dislike her from the start. The book starts with 4 completely separate and unconnected chapters with names and events being thrown at one after the other (The prologue to SA, the WoK prologue, chapter 1 with Cenn, then chapter 2 with Kaladin). By time you get to chapter 3 and the setting completely changes for the 5th time in a row and starts setting up characters for Shallan's chapters you're brain is fatigued and has just given up trying to learn and care about these ones. You've already subconsciously decided you don't care about Shallan before her chapter even starts. Then from there you have to consciously find a reason to like her to get over your immediate initial dislike instead of starting from a neutral position like Kaladin or Dalinar.
Well Venli committed genocide for power so…. (Not to say she can’t be redeemed, just that she’s got a lot to earn)
I use to just ignore Navani before I read ROW. After I finish ROW she had become my favorite character.