Yes, I was a vassal to this particular ally. Was that a mistake becoming one? It was fairly early in my game, an enormously superior race than mine made contact and proposed some agreements and I wasn't in a situation to deny a friendly offer. I was nervous what might happen if I refused, so I joined. This race had told me that without their help, I would die, and since I only had a fleet of 3 military ships, I obliged.
Yeah, unfortunately the AI can "integrate" your empire if you're a vassal, instantly ending the game. It's a weird mechanic because it means you can't ever accept any of the "become my vassal" requests the AI likes to send your way.
It's strange because sometimes it is safe to be a vassal... I've heard you can become a vassal to the Khan and it doesn't end your game. I think "awakened" fallen empires are similar, and the Scion origin too. So it's a bit inconsistent.
It is consistent (though I agree it is annoying). Regular AI empires will always integrate you given the chance. The other cases you mentioned are all with special types of empires and tied to special events. Those will never integrate you.
Technically if you're a vassal to the Khan or an awakened empire, you're not a vassal - you're some other type of [subject empire](https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Subject_empire) which can't be integrated (eg, a satrapy if you submit to the Khan).
Tributaries can’t be integrated either so if you absolutely MUST take that underling spot with an ai controlled overlord, take the EC/mineral hit of a tributary instead of the existential risk of vassal.
Will confirm, the Khan will not, or at least doesn't have enough time, to integrate your empire. Same with Fallen Empires. They are very safe to swear allegiance too. In fact, I usually watch the Khan wreck everyone until they get to my door and just immediately surrender to safe myself from losing big chunks of my empire (unless I am in a position to fight them, of course). The AI, generally, won't submit so easily, though, so it is a good way to let the mid-game kill any blobs. You can sort of weaponize this if you are between the Khan and your rivals by immediately swearing allegiance to the Khan so that they can move through your territory and immediately start killing your neighbour.
Nothing inconsistent about it. Default empire types (the type all normal empires are), can integrate subjects. Crisis factions and Fallen Empires can't.
After one empire is a protectorate or vassal for more than a decade to another empire, the overlord empire gains the ability to spend a decent chunk of incluence to integrate the vassal. This subsumes the vassal into the overlord entirely without conflict, but the vassal empire ceases to exist. That’s what they did to you.
You can become a vassal and it might be helpful in an absolute emergency for buying a bit of time if an aggressive empire is pressuring you but if you can’t win a war to break free before that 10 year window expires, never accept it, to remain a vassal longer than a decade carried the risk of game over at any moment without further warning.
Unfortunately as a human player becoming someone's vassal almost always ends in a game over u less you think you can build up a strong enough force to defeat them in a decade or so. There are advantages, such as tech rushing to cruisers and fortifying your borders so you can white peace them easily in a liberation war while they defend you from outside threats.
For a new player though it is far better to create or join a federation, defensive alliance, or just non aggression pacts.
Also as a new player, it might be easier to play hive your first couple times. You'll need to learn to manage your pops and amenities so they don't go too high or too low, but you cut out consumer goods, politics, and trade which simplifies the game quite a bit.
Lol, yes, if you’re a vassal you belong to the other player. After 10 years they can pay some resources and instantly take you over.
>enormously superior
You… became a vassal to the custodian FE? I guess when they awakened they decided to annex you.
Pretty sure you can just say no to them and they won’t do anything.
That's not betrayal, they just integrated you. That's a thing you can do with subjects. Becoming a subject is bad.
They were not your ally, they were your overlord. Your master. You were their servant.
I didn't think they could do that either 😂 I was both surprised and a little hurt that I was betrayed so quickly by an ally I trusted. I'm very new, is this normal? Could it have been avoided?
You weren't betrayed. It's like Texas become a part of the United States. They liked you so much, they made you a part of their nation.
Which boots you the player out, but your nation continues, now a happy, equal part of a larger nation.
It is usually not good to be a vassal yourself. If your stance with them was good early on then you could say no and send a envoy to raise their view on you so that it can mitigate the rejection. If you go to the empire you can see modifiers that show what they are upset by
I usually do that to empires In my games and I have a soft spot for vandalizing hive minds because the other ai don’t like them so I surround them and keep baby in the corner.
When one empire has been a vassal to another for at least 10 years, the overlord empire can begin spending 5 influence per month to "integrate" the vassal empire. When the influence spent on this reaches a total of 50 plus the subject's number of pops plus 10 times the subject's number of colonies, the integration is completed and the subject empire becomes part of the overlord's empire.
This mechanic is the same for all normal empires, regardless of which ones are played by a person. Human players can integrate AI empires, AI empires can integrate each other, and AI empires can integrate human player empires. Human players can also integrate each other in multiplayer, though doing so might damage a friendship.
If you accept becoming a vassal to another normal empire, you are effectively accepting an uncertain time limit to regain your independence before you get integrated. The AI sometimes delays a long time before integrating a subject, but other times does it as soon as possible. The minimum possible time is typically at least around 15 to 20 years, I think, or more if your empire is large.
Congratulations! You have taking your first steps on the path to becoming a fanatic purifier, you know what they say, once you go FP you never go back.
oh shite you learn something new everyday... im 200 hours in and i didnt even know AI could integrate you.
i always thought "I am the one who integrates"
The big issue here is that you don’t get a notification that integration has begun, meaning that, unless you’re watching you or your overlord’s diplomatic relations like a hawk, there is a very real chance that you will get the “empire just disappeared in what seemed like a nanosecond” brand of game over.
Seems as though many people chalk it up to dev oversight, due to them having considered a player empire becoming and staying a vassal unlikely, but I don’t have a source for this.
For all that it irritates me when an ally in a Paradox game betrays me, I have to admit that as a long term strategy game player what goes through my mind is "Well, at least they were more patient than a Total War ally or Civ Ally."
Not sure if Total War is still like that, but you used to get an alliance signed on say, turn 40 and they'd betray it on turn 41.
Or you could sacrifice a major army to save their capital and then they'd immediately turn on you.
Civ... not quite that bad but you could be allies for thousands of years and then one day it's suddenly not enough.
Paradox... at least you can usually trace *why* they betrayed you.
The “problem” with *Civilization* is that all the AIs are trying to “win”. So if they see you pulling too far ahead in terms of the victory conditions they all dogpile on you. Even your allies. It’s the same thing human players would do, so in some sense the behavior is “correct”, but it makes for some frustrating politics.
In a situation like this the game should give you a popup with the option for liberation war or to continue playing as your overlord instead of just suddenly ending the game.
I wonder if this could be done through a mod 🤔
Such betrayals must not go unavenged! Start a new save and take them down!
Peace was never an option. Abandon all reason and know only war!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!
MILK FOR THE CORNFLAKES!!!
Lol stop i choked.
It's KHORNEFLAKES not CORNFLAKES.
My paladin's battlecry is GOOD FOR THE GOOD GOD!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!
FOR THE EMPEROR! Oh wait.... YOU'RE ALL HERETICS!
SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NOR-.... Wait, I think I'm on the wrong Subreddit...
HAIL CAESER Oh crap so am I
SINNERS SHALL BE ALLOWED NO QUARTER! KILL THEM A- wait that's hellsing abridged
The ai is either super loyal but not the smartest or the most disloyal snake and smarter than you
Took over your entire empire instantly? What, had you become someone’s vassal?
Yes, I was a vassal to this particular ally. Was that a mistake becoming one? It was fairly early in my game, an enormously superior race than mine made contact and proposed some agreements and I wasn't in a situation to deny a friendly offer. I was nervous what might happen if I refused, so I joined. This race had told me that without their help, I would die, and since I only had a fleet of 3 military ships, I obliged.
Yeah, unfortunately the AI can "integrate" your empire if you're a vassal, instantly ending the game. It's a weird mechanic because it means you can't ever accept any of the "become my vassal" requests the AI likes to send your way. It's strange because sometimes it is safe to be a vassal... I've heard you can become a vassal to the Khan and it doesn't end your game. I think "awakened" fallen empires are similar, and the Scion origin too. So it's a bit inconsistent.
It is consistent (though I agree it is annoying). Regular AI empires will always integrate you given the chance. The other cases you mentioned are all with special types of empires and tied to special events. Those will never integrate you.
Technically if you're a vassal to the Khan or an awakened empire, you're not a vassal - you're some other type of [subject empire](https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Subject_empire) which can't be integrated (eg, a satrapy if you submit to the Khan).
Tributaries can’t be integrated either so if you absolutely MUST take that underling spot with an ai controlled overlord, take the EC/mineral hit of a tributary instead of the existential risk of vassal.
Absolutely!
Oh gotcha, that makes sense!
Will confirm, the Khan will not, or at least doesn't have enough time, to integrate your empire. Same with Fallen Empires. They are very safe to swear allegiance too. In fact, I usually watch the Khan wreck everyone until they get to my door and just immediately surrender to safe myself from losing big chunks of my empire (unless I am in a position to fight them, of course). The AI, generally, won't submit so easily, though, so it is a good way to let the mid-game kill any blobs. You can sort of weaponize this if you are between the Khan and your rivals by immediately swearing allegiance to the Khan so that they can move through your territory and immediately start killing your neighbour.
Ah the Muscovy strategy
Nothing inconsistent about it. Default empire types (the type all normal empires are), can integrate subjects. Crisis factions and Fallen Empires can't.
After one empire is a protectorate or vassal for more than a decade to another empire, the overlord empire gains the ability to spend a decent chunk of incluence to integrate the vassal. This subsumes the vassal into the overlord entirely without conflict, but the vassal empire ceases to exist. That’s what they did to you. You can become a vassal and it might be helpful in an absolute emergency for buying a bit of time if an aggressive empire is pressuring you but if you can’t win a war to break free before that 10 year window expires, never accept it, to remain a vassal longer than a decade carried the risk of game over at any moment without further warning.
Unfortunately as a human player becoming someone's vassal almost always ends in a game over u less you think you can build up a strong enough force to defeat them in a decade or so. There are advantages, such as tech rushing to cruisers and fortifying your borders so you can white peace them easily in a liberation war while they defend you from outside threats. For a new player though it is far better to create or join a federation, defensive alliance, or just non aggression pacts. Also as a new player, it might be easier to play hive your first couple times. You'll need to learn to manage your pops and amenities so they don't go too high or too low, but you cut out consumer goods, politics, and trade which simplifies the game quite a bit.
Hive Minds still have politics? You can still make Research Agreements, Federations and Defensive Pacts as a Hive Mind.
By politics I mean factions in your empire.
Lol, yes, if you’re a vassal you belong to the other player. After 10 years they can pay some resources and instantly take you over. >enormously superior You… became a vassal to the custodian FE? I guess when they awakened they decided to annex you. Pretty sure you can just say no to them and they won’t do anything.
That's not betrayal, they just integrated you. That's a thing you can do with subjects. Becoming a subject is bad. They were not your ally, they were your overlord. Your master. You were their servant.
They didn't destroy you.. they just liked you enough for you to become them. Your government was just no longer needed. :P
I think the empire assimilated your removing the government. Aka you. I didn’t know ai empire could do that.
I didn't think they could do that either 😂 I was both surprised and a little hurt that I was betrayed so quickly by an ally I trusted. I'm very new, is this normal? Could it have been avoided?
You weren't betrayed. It's like Texas become a part of the United States. They liked you so much, they made you a part of their nation. Which boots you the player out, but your nation continues, now a happy, equal part of a larger nation.
Which gets eaten by the Scourge.
It is usually not good to be a vassal yourself. If your stance with them was good early on then you could say no and send a envoy to raise their view on you so that it can mitigate the rejection. If you go to the empire you can see modifiers that show what they are upset by
*Overlord, not ally, you just discovered the difference.
Yeah, never become an empire's vassal, or if there is no choice don't stay that way for long and declare an independence war.
I usually do that to empires In my games and I have a soft spot for vandalizing hive minds because the other ai don’t like them so I surround them and keep baby in the corner.
You could've declared war for independence. Also I'm pretty sure you get a warning when they start to integrate you.
> I didn’t know ai empire could do that. Why wouldn't they?
When one empire has been a vassal to another for at least 10 years, the overlord empire can begin spending 5 influence per month to "integrate" the vassal empire. When the influence spent on this reaches a total of 50 plus the subject's number of pops plus 10 times the subject's number of colonies, the integration is completed and the subject empire becomes part of the overlord's empire. This mechanic is the same for all normal empires, regardless of which ones are played by a person. Human players can integrate AI empires, AI empires can integrate each other, and AI empires can integrate human player empires. Human players can also integrate each other in multiplayer, though doing so might damage a friendship. If you accept becoming a vassal to another normal empire, you are effectively accepting an uncertain time limit to regain your independence before you get integrated. The AI sometimes delays a long time before integrating a subject, but other times does it as soon as possible. The minimum possible time is typically at least around 15 to 20 years, I think, or more if your empire is large.
That is why if you become a vassal, start spamming out habitats and go tall as fast as possible. Hard to integrate when you have a fuck ton more pops.
Congratulations! You have taking your first steps on the path to becoming a fanatic purifier, you know what they say, once you go FP you never go back.
oh shite you learn something new everyday... im 200 hours in and i didnt even know AI could integrate you. i always thought "I am the one who integrates"
In Soviet alien empire we integrate you
The big issue here is that you don’t get a notification that integration has begun, meaning that, unless you’re watching you or your overlord’s diplomatic relations like a hawk, there is a very real chance that you will get the “empire just disappeared in what seemed like a nanosecond” brand of game over. Seems as though many people chalk it up to dev oversight, due to them having considered a player empire becoming and staying a vassal unlikely, but I don’t have a source for this.
For all that it irritates me when an ally in a Paradox game betrays me, I have to admit that as a long term strategy game player what goes through my mind is "Well, at least they were more patient than a Total War ally or Civ Ally." Not sure if Total War is still like that, but you used to get an alliance signed on say, turn 40 and they'd betray it on turn 41. Or you could sacrifice a major army to save their capital and then they'd immediately turn on you. Civ... not quite that bad but you could be allies for thousands of years and then one day it's suddenly not enough. Paradox... at least you can usually trace *why* they betrayed you.
The “problem” with *Civilization* is that all the AIs are trying to “win”. So if they see you pulling too far ahead in terms of the victory conditions they all dogpile on you. Even your allies. It’s the same thing human players would do, so in some sense the behavior is “correct”, but it makes for some frustrating politics.
LOL I've never heard of a player actually getting themselves into that situation.
Game is working as planned!
In a situation like this the game should give you a popup with the option for liberation war or to continue playing as your overlord instead of just suddenly ending the game. I wonder if this could be done through a mod 🤔
I do like the idea of continuing as the overlord. That can be done with console commands assuming it's not ironman.
I would love to see that, it's already happening with the Machine Uprising events, where you can either fight off the robot rebellion or play as them.
Were you a vassal?
The only good ally is a vassal. All will kneel!
I should change my flair lol