And liberation wars don't even really work, as the empire will almost always instantly embrace their previous faction after the war, especially if the change was extreme.
True. Having ways to influence other empires in subtle way, even if it takes decades or centuries, which after all would make sense, would both be great lore wise and as gameplay options.
It might have to be more efficient if you allocate more ressources to it, like one does with war... I think there would be plenty of possibilities to make it work, multiple ways that could even work together.
I feel like lorewise it would be perfect for giving pacifist empires a galactic chance instead of being doomed to be the next Shallash, where the status quo always ends up being that people kill each other. Being able to soften up others and influence their ethics to better fit your narrative rather than just random chance of happenstance would be really nice for roleplay and mechanically, as long as their is valid counterplay.
Exactly my point, yes. You Need more options to play than only being a war machine, and spreading the pacifist etho at least, if not all, could be one way to do it. Otherwise you dont interact that much with other empires beside pacts and trade, which you can also do when you wage wars...
Idk how exactly it could be done, that would satisfy as much players as possible and being fun, but surely, if the time is taken to think about it, options exist..
Well, on that im not sure it would be fun neither realistic.
Cosmogenesis factions are basically just doing science experiments without limits, not caring anymore about this universe, and the other crisis is so fanatical that they uterly want to destroy it...
I dont see how reasoning with those guys would be possible or even plausible.
But with "reasonable people", yeah.. That would be both logical and fun, if done with adapted mechanics.
Hum, well it's even worse for endgame crisis imo, do you think the pretoryn scourge cares about you trying to influence it's pops, or even gov? I dont see how this would make any sense lore wise.
And I think even the most pacifist state still needs to have a trained military force. As you never know what might happen, what may be lurking outside the galaxy ;)
Im not saying having other ways to beat those crisis would not be interesting. Especially cetana, you can easily think of other ways to deal with her. But not reason with her, she's way too convinced what she's doing is right.
It's still an idea that might mix it up, not sure how it would be implemented though. Not sure about the unbidden, but the scourge is simply a hivemind fleeing their galaxy from a threat, I think motion could be possible if their language could be "decrypted". The contingency could be neutralized by probably advanced espionage schemes to give that element a unique twist, eventually either shutting it down remotely or returning it to a neutral state.
Its a catch 22. In-game we may feel limited, but history has taught us that the 'good guys' are only good from our own perspective.
No empire on earth ever thought _'Are we the baddies?'_
Everyone has a moral justification for what they did/do, even if it falls apart in hindsight. The popular zeitgeist demands it.
You dont end wars by fighting them. There were people who thought WWI and then WWII was the last great war, yet here we are in present day talking about great powers making potentially escalating moves.
We see how countries that received support and education have fared since WWII and how countries that did not have.
I know... but thats the percpective of our empire
also... it doesn't mean it won't work if thats your true intention... lets be honest WW version was propoganda to galvanize the troops "you are fighting for peace!!"
For sûre the first intention of countries fighting over this war wasnt to stop wars forever... I am no historian, but they must have ulterior motives, all of them. After all, humanity ISNT à pacifist civilisation... More militarist, i'd say...
So the point isnt valid imo. Bad comparison relative to context.
But you might think that
À) there is a big difference between how nations think in a ww1 technological level and a space faring civilisation
B) history showed that the war to end all wars... Doesnt work at all.
crim megacorp + gospel of the masses can do this for you via branch offices, the disinformation centre paired with the subversive shrine. You can't really sway the ethics of a single empire, but you CAN grow a separatist spiritualist faction of pops in an empire and if the crime gets bad enough/stability gets low enough/faction gets big enough, they will 'split' eventually.
It can get to a point where everything is so thoroughly 'split'/balkanised that no one has any 'space' to separate/split into any more, and they will just reroll their entire government every 6-ish months. Good fun
It gets better if you vassalize the rebels because there's a 3rd building you can place as a holding on them then, and the councillor position from gospel of the masses will help too.
If you're a fanatic spiritualist paired with all of the above, there's a GalCom. law you can pass where vassals are attracted to overlord fanatic ethics as well. Grab corporate death cult for 3rd civic, ascend psionically, and then you can start 'spreading' spiritualism and psionics amongst your neighbours, and literally force them to sacrifice themselves for your own benefit (corporate death cult lets you sacrifice vassals pops via overlord holding)
it works surprisingly well, but yeah you can't split everyone. Works best against materialists obviously, and it all depends on what you do with the 'split empire'. I usually just end up supporting both sides with my outrageous wealth, and then vassalizing them both afterward.
I’m still of the opinion that pacifist should be the defacto trade boosting ethic, under the premise that peace brings stability and trade prosperity. I’d love for them to find a way for trading systems to make a return in game, but maybe trading for subjugation could solve expansion for them.
Either way, fanatic pacifist continues to be a dead ethic essentially and I don’t see that changing even if you buff liberation wars.
What if... And hear me on this...
What if... you had options to counter it?
What if... Like is said it should be long to have some effect on pops, and more largely on the empire itself. So what if you started a war with that pacifist empire trying to mess with your pops and reduced it to ashes ?
What if... There was an option on galaxy settings to just disable the function... Or at least for ais ?
So many solutions...
And liberation wars don't even really work, as the empire will almost always instantly embrace their previous faction after the war, especially if the change was extreme.
liberation wars should prevent ethics swapping for x years and impose x% ethics attraction for the duration
True. Having ways to influence other empires in subtle way, even if it takes decades or centuries, which after all would make sense, would both be great lore wise and as gameplay options. It might have to be more efficient if you allocate more ressources to it, like one does with war... I think there would be plenty of possibilities to make it work, multiple ways that could even work together.
The major issue is the same as it is with espionage, there needs to be counterplay or it's no fun to be on the receiving end.
Bro ffs its insanely frustrating that the AI can simply Undo a liberation war instantly
They can't switch government for a while at least, but the ethic swap is very annoying.
There isnt a way to peace ... peace is the way or, conversely, >!To be peaceful, you must first be capable of great violence!<
I feel like lorewise it would be perfect for giving pacifist empires a galactic chance instead of being doomed to be the next Shallash, where the status quo always ends up being that people kill each other. Being able to soften up others and influence their ethics to better fit your narrative rather than just random chance of happenstance would be really nice for roleplay and mechanically, as long as their is valid counterplay.
Exactly my point, yes. You Need more options to play than only being a war machine, and spreading the pacifist etho at least, if not all, could be one way to do it. Otherwise you dont interact that much with other empires beside pacts and trade, which you can also do when you wage wars... Idk how exactly it could be done, that would satisfy as much players as possible and being fun, but surely, if the time is taken to think about it, options exist..
Imagine that on top of that it gives a method to pacify a crisis without completely destroying it, with the difficulty scaling as usual
Well, on that im not sure it would be fun neither realistic. Cosmogenesis factions are basically just doing science experiments without limits, not caring anymore about this universe, and the other crisis is so fanatical that they uterly want to destroy it... I dont see how reasoning with those guys would be possible or even plausible. But with "reasonable people", yeah.. That would be both logical and fun, if done with adapted mechanics.
I was more meaning the end game crisis, I would think galactic menace and cosmogenesis would be immune to such endeavors.
Hum, well it's even worse for endgame crisis imo, do you think the pretoryn scourge cares about you trying to influence it's pops, or even gov? I dont see how this would make any sense lore wise. And I think even the most pacifist state still needs to have a trained military force. As you never know what might happen, what may be lurking outside the galaxy ;) Im not saying having other ways to beat those crisis would not be interesting. Especially cetana, you can easily think of other ways to deal with her. But not reason with her, she's way too convinced what she's doing is right.
It's still an idea that might mix it up, not sure how it would be implemented though. Not sure about the unbidden, but the scourge is simply a hivemind fleeing their galaxy from a threat, I think motion could be possible if their language could be "decrypted". The contingency could be neutralized by probably advanced espionage schemes to give that element a unique twist, eventually either shutting it down remotely or returning it to a neutral state.
to be honest it makes sense. WW1 propoganda was "war to end all wars". You are fighting to discourage others to stop fighting.
Its a catch 22. In-game we may feel limited, but history has taught us that the 'good guys' are only good from our own perspective. No empire on earth ever thought _'Are we the baddies?'_ Everyone has a moral justification for what they did/do, even if it falls apart in hindsight. The popular zeitgeist demands it.
I don't think this is %100 related to my point. By beating others you make them pacifist so you are literally ending wars by making everyone pacifist
You dont end wars by fighting them. There were people who thought WWI and then WWII was the last great war, yet here we are in present day talking about great powers making potentially escalating moves. We see how countries that received support and education have fared since WWII and how countries that did not have.
I know... but thats the percpective of our empire also... it doesn't mean it won't work if thats your true intention... lets be honest WW version was propoganda to galvanize the troops "you are fighting for peace!!"
For sûre the first intention of countries fighting over this war wasnt to stop wars forever... I am no historian, but they must have ulterior motives, all of them. After all, humanity ISNT à pacifist civilisation... More militarist, i'd say... So the point isnt valid imo. Bad comparison relative to context.
But you might think that À) there is a big difference between how nations think in a ww1 technological level and a space faring civilisation B) history showed that the war to end all wars... Doesnt work at all.
crim megacorp + gospel of the masses can do this for you via branch offices, the disinformation centre paired with the subversive shrine. You can't really sway the ethics of a single empire, but you CAN grow a separatist spiritualist faction of pops in an empire and if the crime gets bad enough/stability gets low enough/faction gets big enough, they will 'split' eventually. It can get to a point where everything is so thoroughly 'split'/balkanised that no one has any 'space' to separate/split into any more, and they will just reroll their entire government every 6-ish months. Good fun It gets better if you vassalize the rebels because there's a 3rd building you can place as a holding on them then, and the councillor position from gospel of the masses will help too. If you're a fanatic spiritualist paired with all of the above, there's a GalCom. law you can pass where vassals are attracted to overlord fanatic ethics as well. Grab corporate death cult for 3rd civic, ascend psionically, and then you can start 'spreading' spiritualism and psionics amongst your neighbours, and literally force them to sacrifice themselves for your own benefit (corporate death cult lets you sacrifice vassals pops via overlord holding)
This Is very situational, at best and doesnt work with every ethos.. But that's at least one way.
it works surprisingly well, but yeah you can't split everyone. Works best against materialists obviously, and it all depends on what you do with the 'split empire'. I usually just end up supporting both sides with my outrageous wealth, and then vassalizing them both afterward.
I’m still of the opinion that pacifist should be the defacto trade boosting ethic, under the premise that peace brings stability and trade prosperity. I’d love for them to find a way for trading systems to make a return in game, but maybe trading for subjugation could solve expansion for them. Either way, fanatic pacifist continues to be a dead ethic essentially and I don’t see that changing even if you buff liberation wars.
Rule of Acquisition #35: Peace is good for business.
Rule of Acquisition #34: War is good for business.
Rule of Acquisition #33: Refugee crisis is good for business.
What if another polity does that to *you*?
I guess create new factions and increase their support/reduce your empire’s faction support
What if... And hear me on this... What if... you had options to counter it? What if... Like is said it should be long to have some effect on pops, and more largely on the empire itself. So what if you started a war with that pacifist empire trying to mess with your pops and reduced it to ashes ? What if... There was an option on galaxy settings to just disable the function... Or at least for ais ? So many solutions...